SWEXIT: Sabine Weyand's Final Trade-Off

Speaker 1 Welcome to Trade Off, the podcast about the people, politics and power inside Europe's trade policy. I'm Tom Moylan, your host, and this episode is marking the end of an era. Yes, my guest today is Sabina Veyand, outgoing Director General of DG Trade and Economic Security, who is moving on to pastors new after seven years in the role will be getting her personal take on what has been a fascinating, not to say challenging period for EU trade policy. So let's get going. Welcome back, Sabina. Speaker 2 Thank you very much, Tom. Thanks for having me again. Speaker 1 Again, I believe this is your fourth time on the podcast. Speaker 2 I think so, yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Nice. So you know the drill. In every episode of Trade Off, we start with just that, a trade. I bring my guests something and they bring me something in exchange. So, Sabina, what have you brought me? Speaker 2 I brought you a bottle of white wine from the Mosul, A Mosul Riesling, which is not far from my home region and is of course, one of the success stories of exports. You know, even with the exchange of presents, you have to stick to the trade area. But I hope you'll enjoy it. Speaker 1 Absolutely lovely. Thank you so much. And I, in a similar vein, and perhaps in a throwback to the first episode we did together, where you mentioned enjoying a glass of Japanese whiskey. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 1 Have decided to level you up and present you with an Irish whiskey. Oh wonderful. Which is yes. Speaker 2 So we opened it now or after the episode? Speaker 1 Maybe let's wait till after the episode. Speaker 2 Very good. Speaker 1 So Sabina, after years at the centre of European trade policy, you're moving on. And at your final appearance in the European Parliament on the 6th of May, you said that this felt like a cycle coming to a close. How does that change feel? Speaker 2 It still feels unreal, which surprises me because I've actually been preparing for this since last autumn, so you know, it's not a surprise. But still I find it difficult to project myself into my new situation, also because I'm still fully engaged in trade policy until the very last day. So I think it will start feeling real when on Monday I go to a conference in Florence. So that's when I when I think I will realize it. Speaker 1 You don't get to kind of kick your boots up on the desk at this point, no. Speaker 2 No, but I'm actually looking forward to that because I think otherwise I would have risked falling into a hole if on Monday morning I was waking up and saying, oh, all right, no DG trade, no DG trade coordination meeting, you know, what am I doing now? So that question has been answered. So I'm looking forward to starting the new chapter in my in my life, and that's when it will become real. Speaker 1 What do you think you'll miss most? Speaker 2 What I will miss most is the buzz of things, the buzz of negotiations and not just the international ones, you know, that's, that's of course that's where you get the real adrenaline, but also the internal ones with the member states, with Parliament, with council and Parliament in trilogues and one of these perverse people who actually enjoy trilogues. Because I think when you see the landing zone and you can contribute to bringing positions together, that is hugely satisfying. So I will miss that. Speaker 1 Is there anything you're ready to leave behind? Speaker 2 Oh, quite alike. Don't get me started on that one. I think the thing I'm looking most forward to losing is this permanent sense of urgency, you know, to wake up in the morning and immediately check social media what has happened overnight, to have this 24/7 alertness state. But also the fact that the Commission has gotten used to working in emergency and urgency mode. Now we've been through many crises, so it's understandable, but sometimes I think this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that you do everything in an urgency mode. And I think that is exhausting. So I'm looking forward to leaving that behind. Speaker 1 I can imagine. So let's go back to the beginning. When you arrived in trade from the Brexit negotiations in 2019, did you realise quite how dramatically the world around trade and Europe itself was about to change? Speaker 2 No, of course not. So certain things were already visible, of course, the great power rivalry between the US and China, the fact that the US had abandoned the global trade order that it had helped building and that it had been policing for so long. But of course, I could not foresee the pandemic. I could not foresee Russia's invasion of of Ukraine and all the disruption of supply chains that that created and that it undermined the trust in economic interdependence. And that was a shift in mindset from efficiency to resilience, which has proved to be much more consequential than I anticipated when when we had the pandemic at the beginning. What I also did not foresee was that this would lead to incremental protectionism. So it's not just the big things, you know, sudden tariff increases or whatever, or, you know, people weaponizing export controls. It's really this casual intervention, which everyone now feels entitled to, including in Europe. By the way, we have that discussion in Europe as well. So no, I did not foresee just how big the change would be, even if the writing was on the wall up to a point. Speaker 1 You've described these years through the idea of open, sustainable and assertive trade policy. Looking back now, which of those has become the hardest to defend as the world becomes more unstable? Speaker 2 I mean, this concept of open, sustainable, assertive, it's not about defending one of them against the others. It's all about the balance that we strike. And I think striking that balance has become harder. When we started, there was much more of a focus on sustainability, perhaps sometimes up to a point where we thought we could impose our way of doing things on the rest of the world. We've learned a lesson there. But I think now we are at risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and losing the focus on sustainability, which would be a bad thing. Same thing. I think at the beginning we were not maybe assertive enough in certain areas or we didn't have the instruments to be assertive. That has changed. We have really built quite an arsenal of tools, but are they sufficiently focused and targeted? So I think we still have too many tools which are too broad and not targeted enough. And that is something we we need to address going forward. And of course, openness is under permanent threat, but that is something where on the other hand, we also see a tendency that because of the decline of the WTO, because of the US withdrawing from international trade, the EU is more in demand than ever. So I think we are moving from multilateral openness to bilateral openness and I think that is something the EU excels at. Speaker 1 You warned recently that the world is increasingly shaped not by rule of law, but by the law of the jungle. What does that mean in practice for Europe, a continent that believes in that openness? Speaker 2 I think it means for Europe that we have to not only learn the language of power, but we have to equip ourselves to wield power and we have all the assets necessary, but we need to be determined to deploy them. Whether that is the size of the single market, whether that is the fact that we have an integrated trade and an integrated competition policy, but we also need to invest in the sources of power we are not yet good at. And that is certainly defence, it's foreign policy. I think diplomacy is underrated at the moment. One of the lessons I think is that you can no longer compartmentalise power. We used to be quite happy to be a trade power and an economic power and leave everything else to other people. And I think the crisis we just discussed taught us the hard way that you need to have an all-encompassing approach to power. Now, what do we use that power for? And I think here I would argue that we need to continue using that to insert rules wherever we can. And multilateral, it's very hard, as we have seen with the last WTO ministerial. But I think plurilaterally and bilaterally, the EU can contribute to building the rules of the game for the 21st century. Speaker 1 So plurilateral, meaning negotiations amongst a group of countries instead of everybody. Speaker 2 And we have a direct interest in that, because if we want to maintain the rule of law inside the EU, we also have to push it outside the EU. Speaker 1 You've touched on a whole group of concerning trends there. What's worrying you most about Europe's future? Is it this the weakening of the WTO? Is it big competing powers crashing into each other? What is this? What's on your mind? Speaker 2 I think the moments when an old order disappears and the new one is not yet shaping up are moments of great danger. So it's all of what you mentioned. I think the most important is that we don't lose our compass, that we know where we want to drive this, and that we've worked with the partners that share our approach to these issues, and there are quite a few of them. So yes, it is difficult at the moment because of the fraud relationship with the US, because of Russia's war of aggression and the potential for that to go even further because of the impact of China's economic model on the rest of the world. All of this means that we have to invest first of all in our own strengths, but then also working with others in order to shape the coming world order. So as I said, moments of disruptions are moments of danger, but they are also moments of opportunity, and I hope we focus on those. Speaker 1 Hopeful look there. Well, let let's talk a little bit more about your personal experience on the job. Which professional relationships have you valued most? Who have you liked working with, essentially? Speaker 2 Oh well, too many people to to list. I think what I appreciated is the camaraderie of the trade community internationally. So I've worked with great people from many different countries and that is hugely rewarding. You know, from from New Zealand to Brazil to South Africa to India, you know, there's so many great colleagues with whom we share a similar outlook, at least because we are coming from the trade world. And that was intellectually stimulating but also politically hugely interesting and the same inside the EU. So there is this trade policy community also with the member states but also with the European Parliament. That doesn't mean that we always see eye to eye, but there is a basic understanding that the EU needs to be outward looking and I think it is important to maintain that. And then of course the people inside the Commission, DG Trade, first and foremost. It's a fantastic place and I really enjoyed working with people from different walks of life that come here together with a common purpose. And what I always was impressed by is this commitment to a common cause and the creativity that goes with it and the readiness to go the extra mile. And that was hugely rewarding to work with people like that who really, you know, burnt the midnight oil all the time. Speaker 1 You spent years navigating tensions between the US, China, the parliament, member States and the WTO. What did those years teach you about leadership and about Europe's place in the world? Speaker 2 I think leadership has become a lot harder in the age of populism and you know, the new cycle being driven by social media. So it is very, very difficult to maintain a medium term outlook for political leaders. And I think that is where bureaucracy, a professional civil service comes in because it can help political leaders realise their ambitions. Actually, I think political leaders need the professional civil service in order to maintain, you know, a sense of direction, in order to make sure that advice is based on evidence and facts, etcetera. So I think this combination of political leadership backed by a professional civil service, I think that is what makes what Jose Manuel Barroso called the Charisma Technocratique de la Commission. And I think that is important for Europe to move forward. And the second thing about Europe's place in the world, I think the world needs Europe and Europe needs the world, and both are sometimes underestimated and I think it is important to to keep a focus on that. Speaker 1 Roles like this inevitably affect your private life. How difficult was it to maintain balance through all of this? Speaker 2 I'm not sure I would talk about balance. I think I'd rather talk about sanity. And I think what is important is however deep you are into something, you need to be able to zoom out and step back and maintain a healthy distance towards what you're doing. And that is very, very difficult if you leave your job 24/7. I I found it hard to preserve this ability to zoom out, yeah, and take a distance. So for very long time in my career, I tried to keep one day per week free of work. I really do other things. But that became very difficult in the last years in DG trade and with the crisis that we have lived through. So I'm looking forward to regaining my sanity. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's entirely fair. At least a day, I hope. OK, so here we are, right at the end of your tenure and despite all the tensions and crises of recent years, do you still have confidence in the European project? Speaker 2 Absolutely. I think we are flirting sometimes with pessimism and that is not a good thing. But if you look at the experience of the last decades, how Europe has evolved, if I compare Europe as it is today compared to when I started my career in the Commission 32 years ago, it is a success story. I mean, it's not linear. It's not the progression is not, you know, a constant. You have setbacks, but then you also have leaps forward. And I think there is a shared sense of the necessity of Europe. And that gives me confidence that we will be able to move forward and overcome the crisis we currently have. And look at it, we are not at a bad stage. I mean we, we still have, yes, we need to improve the single market, but it is the biggest single market in the world. We have the biggest network of trade relations. We are constantly developing it further. There's so many things we can build on. The euro is taking on more of an international role. So there are lots of elements that should inspire confidence and trust in our own own ability to navigate a world that has become harsher. Speaker 1 So you can't give in to that pessimism. Speaker 2 No, absolutely, absolutely. And if you look at it, and sometimes I think this pessimism is more prevalent amongst politicians and political observers than in the general public. If you look at all the opinion polls, you can see that there's a huge trust but also huge expectations in the European Union. And I think that is a huge responsibility that we have to live up to. Speaker 1 So any advice for your successor? Speaker 2 Teta and I are good colleagues and friends. If ever I had advice for her which she doesn't need, I would certainly not impart it via podcast. Fair enough. Speaker 1 So finally, tell us a bit more about your next step. So what are you looking forward to in Florence? Rest, Reinvention, Rejuvenation, Freedom. Something else entirely. Speaker 2 No, all of that, all of that. Now I think it's the intellectual freedom and the fact that I need to fertilize my brain that I'm looking forward to because if you are in the day-to-day treadmill of the job, you don't really, or I at least didn't have the capacity to step back and think outside the box and look at different areas, etcetera. So that's something I'm looking forward to, but I will not hide. I'm also looking forward to the green hills of Fiazole, and to the art in Florence and the food and the wine in Tuscany. Speaker 1 Don't sell it too hard. Speaker 2 Now I understand that I'm not the only one doing this as a last podcast, so there's also movement ahead for you. Speaker 1 Indeed, I couldn't imagine continuing to do this podcast without your Sabina. Speaker 2 Well, actually we started it together, you know, because it was a project which was very dear to my heart and it was very dear to my heart to find the right host. And I think you've done what, 18 episodes over over three years? Yes, indeed, that's quite something. Speaker 1 It's quite something and I've got to talk to so many interesting people and essentially got to keep up with trade policy from the inside while on the outside, which is amazing. It's been amazing. It's been such a such a pleasure. So I've really appreciated the opportunity. But indeed, it's after three years, I think it's time for me to move on. But yeah, real pleasure. Speaker 2 Anyway, I hope that you will continue to have this interest in trade policy. I think you're doing a lot of communications work and teaching. So I think from that angle, I hope that the things you have done here on the podcast will also serve you in other activities. Speaker 1 So as we always wrap up, I have a few rapid fire questions for you to send you on your way. One misconception people have about trade policy. Speaker 2 That it is all about exports. Imports are at least as important as exports because they bring you the innovation you need. Speaker 1 Velma from Scooby-doo or Edna mode from The Incredibles. Speaker 2 The social media team of DG Trade has decided that it is Edna. Speaker 1 A book you finally hope to read in Florence. Speaker 2 Oh wow, there are so many of them. Probably I will. However, I have all these lofty ambitions to read Kant and Hannah Arendt. I probably read end up reading detective novels in the first phase. But what I'm really looking forward to is finally being able to finish At Fishman's Choke Points, which is about American hegemony in at the age of economic warfare. And then Semaya Keynes and Chad Brown have a new trade book out, and they made it onto a comedy show with a trade book, so I'm really looking forward to discovering that. Speaker 1 Very nice Negroni overlooking the Ponte Vecchio or Belgian fries at Maison Antoine. Speaker 2 I'll add a gin tonic at Lemonade in Berlin to the mix because the next year I will spend my time mainly in Florence but also in Brussels and Berlin, and all the things you mentioned merit a visit once I'm here. Speaker 1 And finally, one word you hope defines Europe's future. Speaker 2 Indispensability from the inside and from the outside. I think Europe is indispensable for its citizens, for its politicians, for the Member States. It is also indispensable for the rest of the world. Speaker 1 Thank you so much, Sabina. Speaker 2 Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure. Speaker 1 And thanks to everyone listening today and over the last three years. It's been a fabulous experience. And though I won't be here, Trade Off is very much continuing. So please do look out for the next episode very soon. Goodbye. you by the European Commission.