Survivors’ Discussion Continued | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. "You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform." And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them a better new show! We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Euaniel, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scam them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world. It's really funny, I think. Really? Yeah, yeah. I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest two guys with mics. And that's pretty hard to beat right now, but it's true, actually. Why should people listen to us? Tell them. Well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical. You get all your news here. Not, you know, the facts, but maybe our takes on it, and everything in between. So listen out of character on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. For this bonus episode, we'd like to share more excerpts from the survivor's group discussion, because these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia had so much more to say than we could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by a professional. Having conversations with survivors is really near and dear to not just my heart, but to rain's heart. Megan Cutter is the Chief of Victim Services at Rain, the Rape Abuse and Incess National Network. Rain has been working with us throughout season five. Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line. So I want to talk about that concept with all of you and would love to get a sense of like, how do you define healing for you? And I think this can be a conversation of like how this feels, how's this show up? So let's talk about healing. I think that's the hard part. There's no like arrival. That's Ember. It's been two decades since she found out her then fiance was drugging and raping her. If you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have been like, yeah, by 20 years in, I'm going to be all better. I'm not even going to think about this anymore. I wish it was something where we could just flip a switch and never think about it again. My capacity has changed though. My ability to not judge myself. That was a huge thing that I had to get over was like, why am I not better? So I went internal with a lot of it for a very long time. I still think of it almost every day, but it doesn't take my feet out from underneath me when I think about it. Ben, another survivor, Natalie jumped in. Like you, Ember, I'm going on 12 years. That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her. I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no, I'm fine. Like I could totally handle this. I can deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove it in the little box and it's fine. And no, it's not because days would pop up and I'm like, I'm really not fine. I think, you know, we all share this trauma and feeling that I don't know how to fix my life after it's completely blown up like this. That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season one of Betrayal Weekly. After 23 years of marriage, she found intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop. But it was very empowering for me to share my story through the Betrayal podcast and the best part of what came out of that is that the podcast producers connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute sole sister. Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the parallels between her and Stephanie's stories. So we connected them via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls, which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew out to visit Saskia in Maryland last summer. They watched TV together, went on walks, and when one of them felt overcome with grief or anxiety, they didn't have to explain because they both understood. Here is Saskia. You know, to see how strong Stephanie was through this gave me more of the, you know, what I'm gonna see that I can be a survivor, that I am a survivor, and that I can help other people with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in really good company. And now to have Natalie and Ember also to join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be a part of is just really, really powerful. Like the other survivors, Saskia's effort to rebuild her life is ongoing. One thing that was so hard for me is that this was seven years of my life where I thought that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family. And I didn't know what to do with those seven years of memories. We had to not only deal with being raped, but also having our whole lives as we knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that on anybody, but I think it allows us to kind of build back up and take some of our control back. But I think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be more aware of our needs and our wants. I know I've learned that you do have to be a little bit selfish in life just to survive. And I always thought that was a bad word being selfish, but I think being selfless really enabled me to be taken advantage of. I think it's a matter of not selfishness but self-preservation. I have learned and I see that in you also, Saskia, we have finally figured out that we need to prioritize ourselves, our feelings and taking care of ourselves and not just everybody else. I'm Melissa Jeltsin and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it and she got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwanyu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I lived it all. I'm not gonna get any words or fights. - Fighting, that is wild. I learned that about you today. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. - If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Liar. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, I don't really care. - I'm Hamza. - And I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast, I know. There's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you gonna get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. - I know, bold, but why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. - And how nice they were, or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about, trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground, or drama and music, or TV shows, or the Med Galen, what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you wanna see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out, anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, standup, comedian, creator, and host of SCAM Goddess Podcast. The True Crime Comedy Podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. - Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, LeMorene Morris, and Nicole Byer. - Ooh, I scammed them. - What? - I could talk to you for an hour. - You're a generational yapper, like me. - And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s, all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. - Call your grandparents, tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. - If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to SCAM Goddess on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - SCAM Goddess. - Right around the same time, Saskia reached out to us. Jacelle Pelico's story was gaining international attention. Jacelle is the woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over the course of a decade and invited dozens of other men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for rain, brought up Jacelle's case with the group. - When you see stories in the news, in the media, over the last year or so, we've seen a lot of conversation about Jacelle Pelico and her story. What's the impact of seeing a story like Jacelle's in the media or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own? - I felt like the Jacelle Pelico story has been really important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse. - That's Stephanie again. Her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity, but she still went forward to bring this abuse onto a national, international spotlight, which was just amazing. - Here's Ember. - I go on TikTok, social media, Instagram, and I can come across just in my scrolling. So many counts of people talking about sexual abuse and it's like, okay, people are talking about this in the public square, where that was not the case 20 years ago. But is it where it needs to be? - No. - Let's not just pet ourselves in the back as a culture and say, look at us, we've become so much better at this. It's like, better doesn't necessarily mean good, you know, and what more do we need to do? - Then Natalie brought up another high profile sexual abuse case, one that saw polarizing public reaction. When you sat in the media, I remember Bill Cosby and I was listening to that and just listening to commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to stand up for those victims and trying to educate people on how wrong it is. - Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in 2014 and 2015, more than 60 women came forward accusing him of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart in the press and online. Many were accused of making these allegations up for fame or financial gain. - I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly what those other victims were feeling and being labeled as that is just something shameful to carry people give their opinions and sometimes it would just be really hard because, you know, you just have to sit there and kind of take it. - We talk a lot at rain about the myth of the perfect victim. - We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too, how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more sympathetic, believable, while others are written off. - The perfect victim, they weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs. They remembered every single moment of their abuse and they remembered it in order and they went right to the police and they said, "I need help right away." And there's an idea of what someone, quote unquote, should do when they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function. Like it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea, there can be judgment, there can be shame, there can be a lot of putting something on the survivor. Have there been moments when you all have questioned your own experience because of the expectations put on you by that perfect victim dialogue? - When you look at like the perfect victim, I was not a part of your, I wasn't out drinking regularly. I didn't have a fake ID. I never did drugs, even with that. I was deemed a non credible witness by the first two police officers that I spoke to. And they're like, "Yeah, your testimony won't stand." You know, the DA won't pick this up if I don't remember things in a linear way. It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It didn't make any difference in my case. - Then Sasuke spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through it in her divorce case with Mike. - I feel like he was given every grace, every opportunity to just shit on me my mental health, my substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already to have to then put your life on display. And talk about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected the nightmare. Sasuke did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser, the moment she realized what was happening. - But I think back and if I had my wits about me, maybe I would have chose more self preservation, right? I had two step daughters and as soon as I discovered what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the lives of my kids. My kids had to see me falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some of the things that I did too. You know, I don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for our choices and what we had to do to survive. I am sitting with what each of you have shared and talked about and I think it's reminding me survivorship is not a monolith, right? And I imagine for people listening to this too, to hear that there are different ways to navigate this. We'll hopefully make them feel like whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and is right and is valid. My last question is if there's a survivor listening to this, what is it that you wish for them? My wish and desire for you is that you would know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and kindness and compassion exactly as you are right now. I want any victim survivor of this to know that she did nothing to cause this and the shame is 100%. On the perpetrator and you're not alone. Caring that shame is right now. really what kept me from a lot and it really isn't yours to carry. It's not ours to carry. I think I would share that it's not what happens to you. It's what you do with that and how you respond to it that shows the type of person that you are and it's possible to have something so tragic happen to you and still have goodness and hope and not let anyone take that away from you. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org/betrayal. That's r-a-i-n-n.org/betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through rain's national sexual assault hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656 Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at [email protected], that is [email protected] or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod. To access additional content and to connect with the betrayal community, join our [email protected]. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Leah Jablo with additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer is Olivia Hewitt, production management by Kristen Melcuri, additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crine Check, audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Talvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the help of Rainne, the rape abuse and incest national network. Thank you to our facilitator Megan Cutter and to Angelina Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons, Caliba. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, Music Library provided by MyBitMusic. And for more podcasts from iHeart visit the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Melissa Jeltson, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snow storm. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. I'm Melissa Jelio, the old one which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions and at this point in my 50s I've lived it all. Listen on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up, comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. Ooh, I scammed them. What? Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. The funniest podcast in the entire world. I like that. It's a good way to promote ourselves. We are two funny guys having fun and enjoying ourselves. And we just know how to have fun, unlike anyone else. If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes, what else? Not too hot, just kind of loop warm takes to get your mind thinking a little bit. Listen Out of Character on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Guaranteed Human.