Surviving the Troubled Teen Industry

Hi guys, it's me DeVora. I am so excited to finally share this with you all. I've officially launched a new subscription channel called We're All Insane Plus. We're inside You Will Get Access to Never Before Herd Bonus Episodes. All podcast episodes completely commercial free. And my brand new show We're All Healing, where I sit down with experts, therapists, authors, and healers to talk about how we actually process pain, reconnect with our true selves, and rebuild after trauma. You can subscribe to We're All Insane Plus in app on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or you can head over to We're All Insane.com to learn more. Hi, my name is Eli. I use He They pronouns and I'm a survivor of the trouble teen industry. So the program I went to was called Islandy Residential Treatment Center, and it was rebranded, I think, in about 2014 into elevations residential. This place is still open. It's located in Syracuse, Utah, and there's a lot of programs that are located in Utah because of the laws there and stuff. So I was at Islandview from December 3rd, 2008 until April 16th, 2010, so about 16 months. One of the longer stays there. Usually it's about 8 to 10 months. Mine was much longer. Before I dive into my experiences while there, I feel it's important to explain what the trouble teen industry is. So if I say trouble teen industry, what do you think of? Honestly, trouble teens that maybe go somewhere. Yeah, basically. I don't know anything in detail about it. That's what I was telling you before. You hear it and you can think, "Okay, obviously it's a teen that's dealing with stuff or you need to help in a way, but I don't know the details of it at all." Yeah, so basically we got kids that are going through trouble. So trouble is very vague. In my case, I was experiencing a lot of suit-side-ality self-harm, also a lot of aggression and different stuff like that. But people could be sent there for promiscuity, which that is big within itself because it's up to somebody's own discretion. Even not going to school. So let me ask you this. Yeah. How, and I don't know, sorry guys, by the way, on my voice. I'm like, "Who is this?" So I guess when it comes to people that go to a mental facility, like here we have Shepherd Pratt and it's like that, how do you know how they would decide between the two? Yeah, so usually what happened in my case is that I went to a psychiatric hospital. Okay. And so I went there like a whole bunch of times. And so usually when they're recommending residential, it's because that person needs a higher level of care. That's saying that that person's mental health needs are no longer meeting criteria to have outpatient mental health services. Got it. Which, so you would need to go for a longer period of time and stay, because you stayed for like 16 months. Okay. And you were just there the whole time. Yeah, I was there the whole time. And so basically what happens is they say, "Hey, you can't go back home." Like things like that. Like we're recommending this residential treatment center. But also parents can find this place and sign their kid up on their own. Okay. It's not necessarily restricted to professional saying your kid needs to go there. So that's also one of the issues too, because a parent can say, "I don't want my kid anymore. I don't want my kid living in my house. So I am going to literally send my kid to boarding school, because oftentimes they're worded like boarding schools." Like a really good definition for the trouble team industry is basically just like network of privately owned, um, powerfully punitive companies that take the form of wilderness-based programs, residential treatment centers, therapeutic boarding schools, group homes, boot camps, in some cases, like substance abuse centers, and then faith-based academies. So it's a wide variety of range of stuff. In each program is different. My program was worded as a therapeutic program, but not every program is like that. God. So some do offer therapy, so don't mind did. So oftentimes it's like advertised as a place to help or fix kids. Um, in my case, I was kind of viewed as like the scapegoat of the family. I was having a lot of behavioral issues, stuff like that. I'll go into like why that was happening. I will also say that these places are extremely expensive. So when I was at Island View in 2008, it was 10k a month. Oh my god. So like some families are like literally taking out like second mortgages, or like in my case, my dad ended up spending my entire college fund. And so it's 16 months, it's 160k. That is crazy. Yeah. And so like, insurances don't necessarily always cover it either. Like some do. Like the Blue Cross Blue Shield was just really good insurance. They may or may not. But oftentimes like like I said, like parents ended up taking out second mortgages, spending college funds, things like that. I've had friends that like their parents refinanced their house and stuff like that. So it's just very, very expensive. And so like, one of like the major pipeline to like the trouble of teen industry is like outpatient therapist. We got psych hospitals like I mentioned earlier. And then educational consultants. So they're basically people. They're like, hey, like your kid could benefit from a special education sort of program. And so educational consultants are literally paid by programs to like send people there too. A really famous person that sends people to program is Dr. Phil. So he's very well known for sending people to abusive programs as well. So I was like I said earlier, I was sent to Island View via a secondary hospitalization. And so like looking at it on the outside, it looks like it's just going to be like therapy stuff like that. But when you start getting into the nitty gritty of like each program, it starts looking very similar to cult like structures. So we have a lot of jargon, a lot of acronyms, a lot of like really weird rules that don't make sense. And like normal day to day outside world. But for there, it makes sense. And at least at my program, it was based on like a snitching culture. So like, let's say you and I were like friends. We got really close, but you told me something about yourself that maybe I could use against you. And so my place in particular, I made it to where you couldn't trust anyone. You couldn't make friends because if you made friends, what if you're not working the program? What if you know that person ends up betraying you? Right. In order to get like move up in the program, because my program in particular was level based. And how you moved up in the program was basically setting on people work in the program, etc. And but that's not that was that that wasn't something that like when you go into it, you know it's like something you learned over time. Yeah, it's something you learn over time. Yeah, and so like for me, I think if I remember correctly, like the island view handbook and it's like online, you can literally find this handbook of like the rules and the program and things like that. It talks about the positive peer culture model. So it's worded in a way of like, you know, your peers are going to like, you know, help you be a better person. And reality, what it ends up looking at like is snitch culture. I'm going to stab you in the back so I can get out of here so I can move up. So I can look like I'm working the program. Okay. Terrible. Yeah, do that make sense? Yes, no, it does. Okay. So there is this like, civic model for cults. It's called the bite model and it's basically a model used for describing authoritarian control. And so there's behavioral control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. And so a lot of these programs end up basically taking off all those boxes of we're controlling people's behavior. We're changing their behavior into the behavior we want. We're controlling the amount of information that they get. So in my case, like, we didn't have access to news. We didn't have access to newspapers besides what we were a lot, a lot to read in the newspaper. And if there was like an article that like they didn't want us to read, they literally rip it out. And we also didn't have free access to internet where I was at either. No cell phones. You also cannot call people unless it was like your phone call day. And that was viewed as a privilege. Okay. So I can get taken away. And was that every day or no? Oh, no, no. So it depended on the amount of phone calls you were allowed to have too. And so like thought control with that, if we were thinking bad thoughts or thoughts about like the program in a negative way or whatever, we had to tell on ourselves. And we were basically programmed in a way to think in a very particular way about the program, about people. A brainwashing. Yes. Yes. Did you have a visitation? Yes, but that's also a privilege. Yeah. So like it sounds like the whole thing is just like let's fix these people, but not not in like a good way. Let's just like change them. Yeah, it runs off the belief of I'm going to break you down and rebuild you into the person I want you to be. Yes. And so I mean personally for me, I'm very different than how I was when I before I went. And so you're doing so good, by the way. I know I just want to tell you like this is so interesting. Yeah, no. I know Julie finds it so interesting too. Like you're doing so good and you're teaching me so much. Yeah, I think you I it's I like hope I'm making sounds. No, you are. But like you're doing so well. I'm sure I'm not just saying it. I'm so I'm having so much fun because I'm learning so much fun. Yes. No, because like my the best thing for me is like when I can like take things in and like learn and enjoy it. Yeah. Like it's another reason why I love doing that. Yeah. And like when somebody comes on and they're like super paired and it's like a mix of like experience, but also information. Yeah. I think it's so fun. Yeah, I I appreciate it because I I do worry about like info dumping a little bit, but like I feel like this is something that like literally needs to be explained. I know you're doing amazing. So I hope that that makes you happy. Yeah, I know it does. It does. Yeah. So going back to like the the bite models sort of stuff. So emotional control like one of the examples that Island View is that like you are a lot of cry when you're confronted. If you were cried when you were confronted, it was viewed as manipulative or attention seeking. And so there's a lot of beliefs about how you had to display your emotions and what you were allowed to do. So what would they say you can do? You so like in the case of like being confronted, you literally just had to sit there and take it. And so are you allowed to like, I guess defend yourself? No, have an opinion. No, because that would have looked like you were argumenting. Defend the right. You were arguing you were being defensive. You weren't working the program. So basically just to be numb. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And so like a lot of these programs like have like different sort of like program instructors. So like I'm going to be mainly speaking about like my experience, but like usually like a lot of programs use these very similar tactics. So we'll have over medication. We're overmedicating kids at Islandview. They used anti-psychotics for people that were not psychotic and did not necessarily have mood disorders or things like that. And it was really, really heavy doses. A lot of medications at once. I do not remember exactly how many medications I was at as one, but it's a handful of pills. And this is what you were taking every single day. Every single day multiple times a day. Wow. Yeah. And that was just that kind of like I guess that's what like a control tactic. Yes. Everything. Okay. Yeah. Because if you're too fucking tired to fight. Right. I was going to say like super drowsy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, me in particular like I ever really high tolerance for like medications and stuff. So like I wasn't super drowsy, but I know a lot of people were like literally passing out. And then they would get in trouble for sleeping and things like that. Did they have like a psychiatrist at all there that would Yeah. That's what you want to call it. Well, so yeah, there was actually a board certified psychiatrist. Also like a psychiatric nurse practitioner. I saw the psychiatrist once in my 16 months and I saw which is crazy because normally you should be like checking in to see how you're especially you're if you're on a shit ton of medications that have you know like a dual therapeutic effect. So if you're giving somebody like multiple antitiprocesses, you're more likely to have side effects. Yeah. Crazy. Um, and like in this case, two, um, programs do require for parents to sign over their legal custody over the program. So the program can do whatever the fuck they want with you. That also means they can prescribe whatever they want to you. Um, so if you were needed like an ibuprofen, maybe you wouldn't get it. Yeah. Um, so a lot of programs also have like timeout rooms. And so, um, they didn't basically be prepared to like solitary confinement cells. My program in particular, how it was set up was like a metal door, had like bricks, um, like brick walls, no bad, no nothing. Um, the metal door, they said, you know, we don't lock it. They get lock you in there. Um, and you can be in there for like, you know, couple hours, day, multiple days. There's no rest room in there either. So, um, were you ever in one of those? Yeah. Yeah, and I'll go into like my, no, no, no, no worries. I'll go into my turns too. And then like, there's also like under staffing issues. I feel like, you know, like, yeah, if there's not enough staff for the amount of kids that you're like supervising, it gets really chaotic and really stressful on the staff. I'm not giving the staff a fully free pass at all because a lot of them were like very malicious and like intentionally enjoyed hurting kids. But there's been cases of like staffing like, dude, we're literally treating these kids like dog shit. And I can't do this. And it's terrible too because I feel like you see so many documentaries and even movies. And whether it's nursing homes or psychiatric hospitals, like anything, like, unfortunately, and there's a lot of good nurses, but there's a lot of people that just for some reason, they just abuse that power. And it's scary. I mean, it's sad and scary because those are supposed to be the people that help you. Yeah. Yeah. And like in my case, it was like therapists and doctors and people that were like supposed to be trained mental health professionals. In the case of like the regular staff that were there with us for like the day, they were not properly trained in the mental health field. So a lot of the time like at Islandview, they're just higher, anybody off the street. Yeah. You just had to have a college, like not even a college, like a high school education. And so we're putting a bunch of untrained staff that don't have any clue of like, you know, how to work with kids with severe mental health issues because a lot of us did really have mental health issues. And then putting them in charge of, right? Yeah. So. And then so I wasn't, uh, we call it kidnapping or a good squatting. So basically, uh, there are paid transportation companies that your parents or programs can pay to basically legally canap you. So I would, I didn't go through this, but there's cases of like people literally waking up. There's a bunch of like just two people running away in their room and they're like, get up, you gotta go. And so. And that's to take them to the city. Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of people have like extreme trauma around that incident. Particularly. Absolutely. So waking up, trouble sleeping, things like that. My issues with sleeping come with like, we were checked on every 10 minutes with a brightest flashlight. So like throughout the night. Yeah. So imagine trying to like fall asleep with a brightest flashlight, like coming in every 10 minutes. It's crazy too because it's almost like the things that you need to get better, no matter what's go even if you're sick is sleep. Yeah. So it's like they're constantly interrupting and like manipulating everything that naturally would make someone like at ease and get better. Yeah. And then like also like food too. Like you weren't allowed to have like your own personal food items and stuff like that too. And like, you know, if you were in certain punishments, they could technically just forget about your lunch and things like that. So you end up not eating. Yeah. Or like, let's say there's like a long-ass group session going on. You're not leaving to go eat during that. You're not leaving to go to the bathroom. And was there a lot of food options or not for you? No, no, it was very standard. And like, I mean, at least at my place, there was like a salad bar, but like it was like basically like really shitty like high school food. That's what I was about. Yeah. Yeah, basically. And then like physical restraint. So like in my case, mainly like a prone position restraints. Do you know what that means? Basically being forced to like lay on your stomach and like some like multiple people holding you down to the ground. And so we've had cases where people have literally died from that. Also when police do shit like that. So it's like, and you know, there's been like physical injuries and stuff like that. Like at least when I was physically restrained, I got like scars and shit all over my elbows. And so like I described like this snitching culture earlier. And then there's a tech therapy. And so each program is different with this. My program, it would be called a problem solving group. So basically you would sit around in a circle and let's say you and I were friends and you did something I didn't like. I would get a slip of paper would be like, you know, I'd drop a slip on you. That's what we would say. And it would say like your name, my name, the issue we're having. And we were expected to confront people about those slips in that group. It ends up being a screaming and breakdowns were to cycle where we scream and yell at somebody and break them down and basically call them a horrible terrible person. And so like, and this group in particular like we had to like read the rules out loud. Like very like, like you had to read the rules and one of the rules was you had to say I feel statements when you were doing this confrontation. And like, there are typically, yeah, that's a legitimate thing. That's good. They weaponize that. And so now I even just have a hard time following that structure. And so like, I'll go into a little bit about like my experiences with that group of particular. And like two last things is like high pressure sales tactics and false advertising. So my place like beautiful pictures. We go on camping trips, you know, but like also the high pressure sales tactics come in of, you have to send your kid here or they're going to die. Yeah, you have to keep your kid here or they're going to die. So they would often use parents emotions and their connection with their kid as a way to get them to throw more money at the store. Yeah. So as the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening. With here's the scoop, a new podcast from NBC News with Meet Your Host, Gazzin D'Asu Giant. We'll take a deep dive into the day's top stories with NBC News' trusted journalist. It's a fresh take that's sharp, thoughtful and it's informative for you, closer to the headlines and conversations that are shaping our world. In the front page, the zeitgeist hears the scoop from NBC News. Listen daily on Spotify. And would you at the program like were there things that they had you guys doing like, like how you were saying, um, how certain programs have like wildlife things and things that like were they taking you guys out to do, I guess things in nature and things. Yeah, like my, yeah, so some programs that was like just bull shit lie. Okay. Mine we did. And so because we did things like that, it created this really weird, like mental fuckery sort of deal of like, oh, this place can't be that bad. We go on camping trips. And so it would very much like minimize the abuse that we were going through because look at all these fun things that we get to do. Yeah, it was like a like both like when you're there, it's this kind of treatment. And then they have you doing things to make it seem like we're trying to help because I was going to say I almost feel like if they that might be like the cover up in a way because if they weren't doing that and just having you guys locked in a facility for that amount of time, it wouldn't seem as like therapeutic. But there's places like that. That's crazy. Yeah. So like my place at least we did those things in some places just straight up didn't. Right. Also my place was called Island View and there was no Island in sight. So I'm kind of pissed about that. Yeah, like, yeah, bull shit lie. Yeah. So like, you know, kind of going into like, you know, some of the taxes that were used, like essentially this not only harms kids, but also the parents. Because a lot of parents end up essentially being lied to about what the program's going to do, things like that. And, you know, in some cases, many kids are like sent back home to abusive families as well. So like, there's a lot of issues where, you know, they're like, yeah, your parent kind of sucks, but also we're to send you back home. Right. Like, there's no real help. Right. In my case, it was, hey, your stepmom fucking sucks. You can I go back there. So we're going to keep you in programs. And I'll go into like how I got out of that. But like, I almost ended up basically being passed through programs. And that's what happens to a lot of people is, you know, for example, they may go to a wilderness based program first. Like, no, you're not ready to go back home. So they recommend a residential treatment center. So a lot of people that went to Island view went to a wilderness program first. And that involves hiking in the middle of nowhere, ferry carrying 50 pound packs, like not enough food, not enough water, no hygiene, no, like very, very risky sort of thing to put kids through. And then, you know, like from the residential, they may say, Hey, you can't go back home yet. And so they'll recommend like a step down program, like a therapeutic boarding school. And that's what was recommended to me. And, you know, I'll mention, talk about later how I avoided that. But so, yeah, so like, essentially, this is an industry that takes advantage of like parents and kids. And many parents, especially like my dad just want to get their kids help. And they end up paying thousands of dollars, essentially, for their kid to get abused. And it runs off of like the tough love sort of idea of, you know, we're gonna, you know, we're not going to be all like warm and fuzzy. We're gonna, you know, be tough on you. And that will fix you. Tough love translates, essentially, to abuse. And so like, a lot of the like methods use and up breaking down the person in order to rebuild them into the person the program wants them to be. Or in some cases, the parents want them to be. Because they're definitely our parents that send people to programs because they don't walk in want their kid. Yeah. So the effects of like going to like a program like this, um, vary, but essentially a lot of PTSD. I struggle a lot with like dissociative disorder stuff. Um, a lot of worsening mental health for a long time after I learned view my mental health was way worse than it was before I got before I went in there. Um, there's also like this created like distrust in people and mental health treatment. Because this isn't worded as, Hey, we're gonna fix you. We're gonna help you get better. But then we're gonna treat you like shit. Um, and with like the snitching culture, you just can't trust anyone around you. And so like I wasn't using substances at that time, but a lot of people that ends up end up going to programs that have substance use issues end up getting worsens essentially. And so I've had a lot of friends that went to programs that overdose and died. Um, cause like a coping mechanism. Yeah. Cause drug use is just self medication. Right. Cause it works. Um, and so because there's like a lot of like that social isolation too, you're fucking socially awkward. Uh, I'm autistic. I'm a little, I'm a little built different, but like, uh, being at a program where you were literally programmed in a way to like interact with people that's not normal. And then you're thrown out into like a normal sort of situation. You don't know how to interact with people. And so like at Island view, we weren't a lot to talk to people of the opposite sex. So a lot of people couldn't talk to boys like couldn't I talk to girls vice versa? So I think so at the like the place. It was co-ed, but it was all split up by team. So you were all very segregated. Okay. Um, and you couldn't talk. You had to earn that privilege. Okay. Yeah. Um, and so, and I still, I still deal with like this feeling of like being very disconnected from others because when I talk about these experiences, like it was high school. Like majority of my high school experience was spent in a program. And I can't really talk about high school to like everyone else because that's my high school experiences that normal. And you know, like when you don't realize that you were traumatized and then you start talking about it, people are like, uh, that's a little fucked up, dude. And you're like, oh shit, like that is fucked up. And it's just like you just can't relate to people and people can't relate to you. Yeah. Um, frankly, like the only people I've been able to like relate to or people that went to programs or people that've gone to prison. Yep. And that's not great. Yeah. But it makes sense. Yeah. Because we always say that it's like people can can hear you, but it's hard to really relate and understand unless you've been through it and experience it firsthand. Right. And like, you know, even as like I was just explaining this, it's like so fucking weird and so fucking different from every day. Like society that it's just like, yeah, no wonder people won't get it. Right. Because it's hard to understand. It's like people would think it's just what they see in the movie. It's not actually happening, but it is. Yeah. Yeah. It like when you describe it, people are like, that has to be fake. And I'm like, absolutely not like it. It happened. Yeah. So that's a little bit about trouble team and treated that help like fill in. Okay. Very good. Um, so like I'm going to primarily be speaking about my experiences at Island View, but like in order for it to kind of make sense why I got there. I got to like explain kind of like my background, family history and stuff like that. Um, so I was born Chicago. I have a younger brother. Um, and so my parents were in their very very early 20s when they had us. Um, my mom, when she was 18 years old, she had a very, um, serious car accident where she suffered a brain injury. And so she has frontal load damage. And for our load damage literally just changes your entire personality. And my mom's case, unable to regulate emotions, unable to like stop eating. So she would overeat. Um, she had seizures, things like that. And my dad also, he had undiagnosed ADHD. I'm pretty sure. Um, just with like different things that he did in his inability to like behave and like do things like an adult, like set up doctor's appointments and stuff like that. And his drug of choice was cocaine. And so it made a lot of sense like my brother and I both have ADHD and we're like, well, it didn't come from mom, it came from him. And so my dad, um, my grandma was like 18 when she had my dad. And so, um, she had raised my dad for about 10 years before she got remarried to the do that's my grandpa. And he ended up adopting my dad and they always clashed heads that my dad was kind of a wild child. I mean, this is like 80s. So like the thought of like ADHD was like, you're just a fucking weird ass boy. And so my dad was actually sent to a boarding school because of a lot of behavioral issues he was having. And his experience at boarding school very, very different than mine clearly. Uh, he went skiing. He, you know, it was just like a normal fucking boarding school. And so with islanding, he thought it was gonna be the same thing. Just with therapy. Um, so when my mom ended up having a brain injury, her parents ended up taking care of her for a little bit. Uh, her parents just kind of suck. They didn't want to deal with her like they did not want to take care of a disabled child. And so they ended up essentially like, pressuring my dad into marrying her because they knew each other in high school before like my mom's brain injury. And so my dad, a very sweet guy, very good guy had no clue what he was getting himself into. So now he had a wife with very, very severe disabilities and he's expected to take care of her and also work. Not gonna happen. Um, they also married not thinking they could have kids, uh, because that's what my mom was told. After the accident. Yeah. Uh, so I, I am here. Yeah. So like my parents married not thinking that we're gonna have kids. Then I was, I'm the oldest. So yeah. Was the surprise. And so with my dad working all the time, my mom was expected to kind of take care of us. Not at all capable of doing so. She would sleep all day, things like that. Um, and I don't remember like a lot of the stuff that happened when like in my early childhood, but I would often leave the house like because my mom's to sleep all the time when she would get upset. She would lock me in a closet apparently. Um, I didn't have access to food throughout the day because she was sleeping. Um, and there's a period of time where I usually, I usually would just like leave the house and go across the street because there's like some old people living there, but I got a little bit too far and got out to the train tracks. And the police sent it out, pick me up at that time. Like the snagged three year old and a diaper essentially. Uh, and like my only memories of that time were like the train, which I didn't get hit by because I'm here. Uh, right. Yeah. Uh, that would have sucked. Uh, and then like the police picking me up being stopped in like this giant like police t-shirt and then watching Arthur. I don't know. Um, but like, uh, DCFS was never called. CPS was never called. Like my mom was just called. She rolled up. Yeah. My mom just like came picked me up and I went back home and it was like rinse, wash, repeat. And so my mom was also very abusive towards my dad. Um, just very incapable, regulating her emotions. And there was a lot of verbal and physical abuse towards my dad. And this is during a time where men don't get abused. Um, so my dad off, but he didn't really talk about it. Um, I only found out about this like after he passed away. Um, and so there was a period of time, uh, found out about this one. I was older. Um, my mom apparently kidnapped us. Uh, she just like grabbed my brother and I and like just left all my dad was at work. And because of how unstable my mom was my grandparents like, oh, we don't want to call the police. Like this is really suspicious. They apparently ended up hiring a private investigator found us. Uh, yeah. And so my mom didn't go to jail for that, but she ended up going to jail for, um, hitting my dad at one point. And so when she got on a jail, she actually just like hitch-tiked and left me left, left her main. So like, just kind of like left my dad with us, which looking back like when I was younger, I was like extremely angry about that because I was like four. Okay, so you're still really young. Yeah. Yeah. And so did she stay gone? Yeah. She, I did not end up living with her until after I was 18. Wow. So that's a big, yeah. Okay. And so her, my parents didn't technically get divorced until like 2001, but um, my mom was not really in the picture and it was not safe for her to be in the picture either because of just how unstable she was. Um, and like, you know, like, I'm when I was a kid, I was pissed because I didn't have a mom, but I'm kind of thankful for that because I, and also it's like, it's unfortunate because of her circumstances, you know, like, and it's, it's not too excuse it, but at the same time, it's like, she wasn't well. Right. Yeah. And my family has a really hard time understanding that too because like, she apparently should try to poison my grandma. Like, there was like a whole bunch of weird shit that happened between her and my grandparents that um, nobody really talks about because my family's not great at talking about emotions or bad things that happen or stuff like that. Um, but yeah, like a lot of it comes down to intergenerational trauma and both my parents just never really got that addressed. Yeah. Um, in addition to my mom's brain injury. Um, and my dad, uh, struggled a lot with substance use, but like during this time, he was relatively sober and throughout most of my life, he was sober until like, you know, my like later teenage years after I only knew. Um, so when my mom left for Maine, when I was four, um, my grandparents ended up stepping in basically. Um, they tried to get my mom's parents to help, but they basically like told my grandparents, nah, fuck those kids. We're gonna like send them into state care. Um, and so they didn't want any part of like taking care of us. And so my grandparents ended up basically raising my brother and I, while my dad was at work. Um, so my dad has like some younger siblings and my youngest aunt is only three years older than me. So we were basically raised like siblings as well. Um, and so before, we ended up moving to Missouri, um, very, very close spent nearly every day there. Um, yeah. So, um, so I mentioned my pronouns, so I do identify as like trans, um, and like, I have some like early memories of like my identity. I'm like also, I'm just pretty fucking queer in general. Um, and so I remember, like in preschool trying to learn how to peace stand up because like, I was like, that's what you're supposed to do. Like my dad does that. My brother does that. I'm supposed to learn how to do that. Um, and like, which is very, very like much of a tomboy, but like honestly, like, gender is kind of fake. I'm kind of very ambiguous, but it was like very much like my early experiences of yeah, I'm trans. Like there's, there's something different here and I bring that up because that was not really allowed at Island view. It was very, very like, um, there was a lot of force since cisgenderism and a lot of force like heterosexualism. So like, you had to be straight and you had to be like cisgender. You couldn't be anything else. Um, and so like, I mentioned earlier to that like, I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD and autism. Um, the ADHD got diagnosed very late in life and it turns out that, uh, that's what mainly was going on in addition to trauma when I was younger. Um, and so how my ADHD and autism present themselves is like a really hard time emotionally regulating head in the clouds. Like a lot of sensory issues with like clothing and environment, um, messy and loud. While I'm speaking, uh, you know, and so a lot of these things like start popping up very, very early in my life and I ended up in like emotional special education. I was in basic like mainstream education, but I had like accommodations and like, I can leave the room if I got to overwhelming stuff like that. Um, that's key point because it was heavily impacted by Island view. Um, so, but yeah, like, Ho raised us, uh, with my grandparents and like, from the ages of like four to seven and he ended up getting a job in Missouri. And this was like right before the big tech boom and my dad, he never graduated, uh, high school, he got his GED and he was able to get in telecommunications and engineering, basically putting like, uh, Wi-Fi stuff in the buildings like telephone wire stuff like that. Um, and so he was able to make, make living. So you got a job in Missouri. My brother, he was in preschool at that time and he ended up meeting this girl and then they came friends. Um, and I'm not going to name her because I kind of want to. It's fine. Yeah, but uh, my steps like she ended up becoming my step sister and so, um, her, uh, my step sister and my brother wanted to hang out. Then my dad met her mom. They started dating and so very early on with my stepmom, um, she, there was a very clear difference in how she treated her kids and my brother and I, even before they got married. Um, she would try to ground us, uh, before they were even married and there was just lots of little things where, um, it was very clear that she did not like my brother and I. Yeah. Um, I was later told by my dad that a lot of the reason why he married her was because he wanted us to have a mom and he was like very much from the family culture of like you need to be raised by two parents and he was, felt a lot of shame about being a single parent. Um, and so there's like a core memory before my, um, my dad married my stepmom where we went on a trip to go see my grandparents the entire time she acted really nice, was a really caring mom the entire time in front of people and you know on the car ride home, she was holding my hand was being very, very nice to me and once my dad left the car, she yanked her hand away, called me stupid and that was just like the very beginning of like this realization of this woman does not like me and she doesn't want to be my mom, right? But she played the part in front of my dad. And so, which is so hurtful to a child also because it's like you cling onto that hope that you have that like loving figure. Yeah. And then it's just like, it's terrible. Yeah. And like, you know, at that time I didn't like have that like recognition that I had abandon issues for my mom, but it was like very much like, you know, I lost my mom and here was this person that was supposed to be my mom and she fucking hated me. Yeah. Um, and I'd never been able to figure out why other than she's just a fucking terrible person. Right. A miserable person. Um, but like when I was a kid, I would try to rationalize it. Maybe I did something, you know, like, and so. And that's what kids do. Yeah. You know, you don't know. And that's why I say it's so hurtful because it's like as a child to have that happen. It's like, I don't think people even realize like, and obviously the child doesn't even realize in that moment like why it's happening. Yeah. When that when stuff like that keeps occurring, it causes you to have issues within yourself of like, what's wrong with me? What did I do? And then down the road that leads to even more things. Yeah. It's terrible. This started off like at seven eight years old too. So it started off very, very young for me. And so like once they married, um, they moved to Texas. And so this removed me from my family. Um, this removed me from, I mean, I always had trouble making friends, but like the very few friends I had, I had, I didn't have them anywhere. And so, um, I didn't really make friends until middle school at that point. And I was like really, really bullied. Um, and like later elementary school on into like middle school and high school. Um, and so once they married and we moved to Texas, like my stepmom's abuse like escalated and like, there wasn't any physical abuse. It was all verbal, emotional and especially mental. This woman played like mind fucking games. Right. And one of the ways that she would play mind games is launches. And so her, um, for example, like her kids would get like really, really nice sandwiches, hostess pastries, you know, pop juice box. And my brother and I would get a PB and J sandwich with way too much peanut butter on it. Um, dried carrots, she would intentionally like leave them out, like sitting on the counter and like bruised ass fucking like fruit and stuff. And then if it was like during the weekends, she would pour like a glass of milk like during breakfast and then leave it out until lunchtime on the counter. This Texas thankfully we had air conditioning, but that's like warm milk is not good. It's fucking gross. Um, and there was like also just like a clear difference in like chores too. Like I was expected to do a lot more chores than like my step siblings and things like that. Um, and there's a lot of this like stop crying. Children are meant to be seen and not heard. And I've always been the more reactive one. Uh, and my brother, he, when he was younger, he was very, very sensitive and he would cry. Um, he also had dyslexia. So she would force him to read out loud for hours and hours and hours. And it's like that also fucked him up. And I was very protective of my brother at the time. So I intentionally made myself more of a problem. So she would leave him alone. And I was a sneaky kid. So like, you know, like usual grounding is like in your bedroom. So I was like steal the keyboard back and like be on my computer. She was like, no, no more of that. So our grounding ended up switching to like having to sit at the kitchen table and being unable to move or speak without permission for like hours and hours and hours. And this was all while your dad was at work, right? Uh, well, so he was there. And so with my dad's like abuse history and different things like that, he just had an incredibly difficult time like sticking up for us and defending us. And he thought like, you know, like, yeah, they are acting up. He probably thought in a way it was like structure or something. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just I like he didn't even have an example of like what a mother should be doing. So you know what I mean? For their kids. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, it's weird because like he had such a good relationship with his mom too. And I just meant like with, I guess seeing like, as you guys didn't have that. So it's like in his mind, I can see how it would be like, is this good? Is it not good? Like is, you know what I mean? Yeah. And like, I'm sure like with him, he was like, well, this is different than what happened with me. Yeah. Uh, because that didn't work out well. Right. So and like a lot of it was like from the outside, it looked like it was fine. Yeah. Just maybe a little strict, but really it was just like a lot of abuse. Absolutely. That was like mental emotional. And it's so sad too, because like even just hearing this, it's just like, it's heartbreaking that like there's kids that would have to live like that. Like it's so sad. I felt like I was a visitor in my own home. Yeah. Um, and like, I felt like I didn't belong because I was always told like my opinions didn't matter. Right. And I got the sense of early on that something wasn't right. And being the way I am, um, I'm the Y kid, but basically so I always ask like, why do I have to do this and stuff like that? God, me so much for fucking trouble, but in order for me to understand, I need to ask why. And so with her, she was basically just wanted us to shut up and be quiet and fall in line and do what she wanted us to do. Um, and so I ended up escaping a lot of like this abuse mentally through like finding online writing communities. And that gave me at least a place to write what I was going through in like a fake character or whatever. Or at least just like have some sort of friends. Um, at the same time, though, I was exposed to like self-harm and like different things that people did in order to cope with mental health issues. And so I mean, it's not fucking wander wonder like why my mental health issues started very early does like kind of laying all that out and it was about like six grade when I started to cut. Um, and I realized very early on that it helped me calm down. It helped me not feels overwhelmed. And it gave me a sense of control. And very early on it became an addiction. Um, if I got emotionally overwhelmed, I needed to cut. And then this translated into like very severe suicidality to the point where I had about six suicidate times before I was 15. And so my anxiety and depression were like very, very intense. Um, I was having a very difficult time, like going to school, things like that. Um, and it wasn't until seventh grade when I was finally hospitalized. And I was only hospitalized because a English teacher saw cuts on my wrist. And before this, I had told my parents I was cutting my stepmom laugh at me and she said, you're just being dramatic. And so when the school got involved, they basically told my dad that he had to get me a psychological evaluation in order for me to come back to school. And so this is like my first introduction to like inpatient hospitalization. And so it was like a combination of my dad's inability to like parent properly and like set up appointments and keep up with my medications. And also my stepmom telling him he was not allowed to do these things. And so I went in and out of the hospital a lot. So I had about 15 hospital I say in six months. Um, and most of these were like for suicide ality and self harm, but also like for my anger outbursts at home. And so hospital tell my dad I need therapy and meds in order to stay stable. He'd be like, all right, but and then like I'd be on meds for a little bit, no therapy. And then it would just all fall apart. Rents wash repeat. And the hospital honestly ended up being an escape from home as well because it was a place where I didn't have to experience verbal abuse. My first like hospital that I went to was actually a pretty good program like not a lot of like abuse was happening there. Um, but they were just like, fuck we don't know what to do with this kid. Yeah. Um, and so I mentioned earlier that I struggled with like associate episodes and like because of like essentially like this torture I was going through with my stepmom. Um, I ended up being like grounded at one point for like six months and I was at the kitchen table and she spent a lot of time in the kitchen. So if you're grounded at the kitchen table, she would just talk smack and like provoke you and things like that. And it was accumulation of all that for six months and I ended up snapping and I ended up kicking a table at my stepmom like pulling out of knife like it was like very out of control behavior. That's very, very different than how I actually am as a person and um, I just really lost control over myself and it felt very much like I was outside of my body just watching myself lose control. Um, luckily I wasn't arrested at that point but my stepmom ended up pressing charges. Um, and I went to a residential before Island view and that it was called San Marcos Resonatial Treatment Center. It was a Joe Compare Island view but it like basically was like a good introduction into like residential programs because they use like communication restriction which is like you're not allowed to talk to certain people. Um, but there was like no therapy there. I was basically like a holding self for like a bunch of fucked up kids. Um, and it just like once I got out of there, I was only there for six months. I just went right back to cutting and doing those doing that same stuff. I was gonna say too as far as like the lashing out goes we're all human. Yeah. And like every one eventually it's a breaking point. Yeah. And I feel like you could be the nicest person and the best person. But if you're around evil, yeah, it will turn you evil. Like you are what you surround yourself with. Yeah. So it's like it's almost like she wanted you to get to that point in my opinion. Yeah. For sure. And like even if that wasn't you, someone can easily make that you. Like if they break you and push you and push you hard enough. Yeah. And it's like all that time of just like abuse and like pushing you, like it doesn't surprise me. Yeah. At all. No. Like in so like I'm a therapist now. And like I've done right. You know, like a lot of my education and stuff is about like working a trauma and association. And like yeah. No, and you can like I feel like it's very easy to like be angry yourself in a certain way of like, oh, like I wish I didn't act that way, but it's like you can't because it's like, you know, it does not surprise me. No, it doesn't surprise me at all either because like one on diagnosed ADHD that was like not being treated to being like horrifically abused like for years and years and years. It makes a lot of sense when I snapped. And the thing is too is like there's so many people that probably would snap just one time from watching the way she was treating people. Oh, yeah. So it's like, you know what I mean? Like experiencing it as a child over and over and over again. She's lucky. You didn't fucking kill her. Oh, yeah. No, seriously. Yeah. And like not to be blunt, but no. And like, you know, looking back I'm very thankful. It did not give me far. Right. But that was very clear that like this is bad. This is horrible. Oh, yeah. Horrible. That's like a, and it's crazy too because there's so many different types of abuse, you know, and like I don't think people realize that mental abuse is 100% just as bad as physical abuse. And it's so it's so hurtful, like deep, like so deeply hurtful. And it's like, it's just crazy to me because I don't know. Like I just think of like movies I've seen in documentaries and like hearing about abuse, but it's just like knowing that people actually experience this. Yeah. It's just like mind blowing. Yeah. And like when I've explained it to like people in the past, they're like, dude, it's like fucking Cinderella. I'm like, yeah, it's literally, it's like, yeah, it's like Cinderella, but like times like one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, like I can't even like, you can know it, but you still can't wrap your head around it. Yeah. Yeah. Because like, no logical sane person will ever treat a kid this way. No, it's great. Reminds me of like, um, just like, I've seen 70 movies like that. And it's just like, you watch it and it's it's sick. Yeah. And like, you know, like my family, they had like some sense that something was going on just because of like, you know, I spent the great like the summer at my grandparents. And they noticed I was like way more depressed, way more quiet, but like going to my grandparents was like, honestly, like, a break. Yeah. So they got to see a part of me that like not a lot of people did, but like they could still tell something was wrong, but not exactly what was wrong. Um, and so obviously, like my first residential knot, very successful. Uh, my mom also refused to do family therapy. No surprise, because I'm not the problem. Um, also that would take that would require care and work and yeah, and actually like recognizing that there is a problem on her part. Yeah. Not just me. Um, so I think sorry. Didn't know. No worries. Do you think that she convinced her to add in any way that you were just fully a problem child? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because like, I mean, taking a step back, like behaviorally. Yeah. Like, but then like, you know, if I laid out like I was trying to protect my brother from abuse, there was a lot of um, provoking on her part. Um, you were abused daily. So it's like, yeah. Yeah. And, but like, because I didn't sit there and describe and I was very, very verbal and physical at times, it was very easy to label me as the problem child. And too, I feel like it was almost like your shield was like acting out. You know what I mean? Like, so protect like, oh yeah, because it gets people to fuck away from you. It gets people leave you alone and like, you know, I'm still working on that aspect because like, you know, fight, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, and my instant response is to fight. Um, and that's not a great situation to be in if like, just anything can set you off. Um, yeah. So like, obviously, like, I was in and out of hospitals again from like 2006 until like late to late November 2008. Um, and I ended up in the hospital one last time. So, I said, I'll be in self-harm, like always. Um, and this hospital's like, God damn it. All right, kid. We got to do something here because one of your dads not taking you to therapy. I don't think you ever will without patient care. So like, and you were like, it was to the point where like, I was going to die and I, it was either I was going to die or I was going to severely hurt somebody. Um, mainly my stepmom, because she was the target at that time. Um, and I didn't really get physical beyond like that thing that happened when I was 12, but it was like, uh, I was a like, Walpunter kid and like stuff like that. Um, so I ended up spending that Thanksgiving, um, at the hospital and I ended up going back home to pack December 2nd, 2008. And this is like the last time I ever really had a conversation with my stepmom. And I just remember her saying, you know, I'm so I'm going to be so happy when you're gone. Um, and for her, it was to get me out of the house. My dad was so focused on getting me the help I needed. Um, and like, yeah, so I slept at home that night and then my dad and I, we flew out to Syracuse, Utah like that morning of a December 3rd, 2008. Um, so Syracuse, Utah is in the middle of fucking nowhere. It's like surrounded by like how fields and like a tiny little like neighborhood where everyone pretty much works at Island view. So like if you ran away, good luck. Yeah. Um, so like before I go into like kind of like what happened me at Island view, I feel like I got to kind of explain some of the acronyms and the fun little programming stuff. Um, so there's just like punishment called yellow zone. And you can get on yellow zone for like, let's say you were flirting with somebody or you were planning on running away or, you know, you did some sort of like aggressive action or you harmed yourself or whatever. Um, what yellow zone was that they would like you would have to pull like this like plastic lawn chair out into the hallway and you had to like sit there and silence for like hours and hours hours. And if you needed to go to the bathroom, you had to drop a slip of paper and like staff would just like ignore the slip of paper. Um, no, you couldn't talk. No, you couldn't talk. You couldn't talk to anyone. You could only talk to staff that they talked to you. Um, you weren't allowed to go to school at that time. Uh, you weren't allowed to participate in group therapy, but you could be present. You just had to sit outside the circle. Um, and then there was as if they thought you were flirting. Flirting like literally like any sort of like a rule breaking. Like out of line. Yeah. So like usually the hierarchy of like punishment, like you got a priv taken away. And then, um, a level drop, which I'll explain like what levels are and a bit. Um, and then it would go yellow zone. And sometimes like, it could just jump right to yellow zone, depending on what happened. Um, and then individual focus, which is way longer. Um, so essentially it would take like all your personal effects, all your clothing, all pictures, all things like that. You would be forced to wear sweatpants. Um, you couldn't go to school. Um, and you had to sit at your desk and your job was to work on therapy stuff in order to get off of individual focus. Because it was your time to focus on yourself. And there'd be a wide variety of reasons why they put somebody on individual focus. Um, some cases it literally could just be, well, we don't think you're working the program. So. And working the program can mean a wide variety of things. Um, so there's a team focus as well, which is like basically the entire team of people like every single person on the unit had to go through this focus sort of thing. Um, and that was like a lot of like special groups, like a lot of groups that were focused on like the issues that were happening. Why all of you are out of control on things like that. Um, I mentioned problem solving group earlier. Um, and then I also like talked a little bit about the snitch culture as well. Um, there's like leave of absences like kind of like, you know, like I said, it was a privilege. And so you had to get permission from your therapist and from like all the staff that were like working with you. Um, and it was based on good behavior. So you can have an off campus visit, which is like Justin, like the area where your parents come and visit you and they can have a home visit. And many times these visits would be scheduled and then staff would pull them away. And sometimes that would happen right when your parents are right there. And you would have to tell your parents why. Um, and so there's also communication restriction. Um, and so basically not a lot of talk to anyone, not a lot to look at anyone, things like that. And they could say like, you know, you're on communication restriction with a specific person, let's say you and I became too close to friends. So they could put us in communication restriction because we're not focusing on ourselves. We're not working the program. And then there going to be an entire communication restriction with everybody. So not a lot to talk to staff, not a lot to talk to anybody. Um, and then it's like, how do you even get what you need? Yeah, to drop a slip of paper, slip of paper. And that's when they are in the mood to yeah, yeah. Um, and you could be on communication restriction and also like be going to school and be doing other things as well. So like you're essentially like socially isolated, not a lot of interact with anybody. There's also like, uh, seminars. So each program was a little bit different with seminars. Some of them had like seminars very consistently. The only time that we had a seminar while I was at Island View was like midway through my stay. And basically it was like, week long hours long therapy group with families. And it was like meant to get the parents to buy another program and meant to like further deconstruct the kids. Um, and yeah, do you have any questions about and so a little bit about levels. Um, there was five levels. So when you first got there, you are on orientation for two weeks. Um, and each level had different privileges. And so, um, these privileges can be taken away from this behavior also with like at desk discretion. And also the levels can be taken away as well. And also the way that it works is like you work your way up to the top level. And then that's when you would be released. Is that how to do? Yeah. So usually like people and graduating at impact or test. So it goes orientation, explore, apply, impact and test. And so, and so, there's no time frame. Well, that's just like whenever. Okay. Nope. It's on your own time. And so usually orientation is either when you first get there or if you're on a punishment. So like if you were on orientation because of a punishment, you had no privileges. No free time. Just like keep back and like if you made it to like the third or fourth level, they can back you back to. Okay. Um, and so like it seems like to with with a program like that, I can see you like messing up without even trying, you know what I mean without even being like aware that you're doing something wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll let go. I looked at somebody. You looked at somewhere the wrong way. Well, guess I was flirting or you're not being enough of a leader, right? Which that was that was used. And I'll go into like my experience with that. But like I was saying, like a lot of the privileges were tied to levels. So like orientation and explore, you weren't allowed off campus. Apply was the first time you're allowed off campus. And that there would be like a weekend trips and stuff like that. That's when you do like the wild. Yeah. Well, like so like the camping trips would actually be like a longer trip, but like it would be like, let's go to the zoo. Let's go like, you know, the Anelo Island, which don't fucking go. It smells like shit because of all the grind shrimp. Yeah. Um, Utah is just terrible. I won't go. Yeah. Don't go. Uh, and so it wasn't until you reached impact and test like so impact is when you are allowed to talk to a person of the same sex on the opposite team. Um, so let's say I was on gold and you were on silver that those are just the team names. I couldn't talk to you outside of school or outside of like weird like games and shit that like you weren't allowed to form friends. No outside of your unit. Um, and then. And there was no point that you could talk to the opposite. There was. So you had to be the highest level, which was test. Okay. And so that was like you hardly really had like much contact with like the opposite sex besides like for school. Um, so like you would you have school with the boys, but in or like girls, whatever. Um, and then depending on like your level, you couldn't really talk to them outside of like school or outside of like educational related things. Um, and if they thought that you were, you can get a really, really big trouble. Yellow is not one essentially. Uh, and so. I was talking like earlier about like the phone call stuff. So, um, your phone call time dependent on the level you're at too. So orientation and explore, I think it was about like 10 minutes. Uh, once a week, um, apply was maybe 15 twice a week. Impact had like an extra one with some extra phone time and then test had unlimited phone calls unlimited phone time. That could be taken away. And so many people didn't actually reach test because in order to reach that level, you had to literally be so brainwashed and right. So bought into the program that yeah, they didn't worry about you like walking around the grounds on your own. Like we let we were on locked units. So you weren't allowed to like go outside. They probably assumed too that once you're that brainwashed and you get to that level, they probably allow the unlimited because at that point, maybe they wouldn't even want to be making the calls or care to make phone calls. Or like you wouldn't be causing problems like the phone calls. So like, you know, like the phone calls were monitored too. So like, when we did our phone calls, it was like all in the centralized area. So like I think at one point, like, I think it'll be listening to staff would be like, yeah, yeah. And so there would also be like, I forgot what the name of this job was. There's a lot of names for the jobs. Uh, I don't remember the name for this one. But basically, there was a person that was in charge of like the phone call signups and they had to sit there, um, near like in the centralized area. And like essentially, they would be appear listening to the non calls too. So if they heard anything that was against the rules or whatever, like let's say like, I told my dad that I watched somebody get physically restrained, they get in my phone call. Um, letters and stuff were also like, um, censored and like viewed before they could be mailed to. So you couldn't like, um, they would like either not send a letter of there's something in it that like they really didn't want you to send or they would like just take a sharpie through it and also say with like letters coming in too. If there's something in a letter that they didn't want you to read, they would just sharpie it out. So all the mail you would get would also be open before you could actually get it. Um, so yeah, uh, a little bit like a force labor stuff since we we were talking about that. So like Island view, uh, we didn't have like, like digging trenches or like fucking holes like that movie holes. Uh, but we had, um, we did a lot of cleaning. So like when we first woke up, uh, we were expected to like, basically like military style clean our entire area and we only had 20 to 30 minutes. In addition to like our personal space like in our room, we also had to clean like an assigned chore. So like bathroom, like halls, whatever the fuck. Um, and so, well, there are a lot of teens there. Yeah. So like, I think, uh, Max, my, the team, one of the teams I was almost 24 people. Okay. Um, somewhere smaller, somewhere, um, maybe a little bit bigger. I think the max is honestly 24 though. Just like trying to remember all the bunk beds and stuff. And what time are they waking you, uh, six? Okay. And you didn't have your own room. You guys would also, was it like a big enjoyment? Yeah. Yeah. So like the unit I was on, um, I went to like multiple teams. So like my first team, it was four people to per room. So it would be like two bunk beds. Um, depending on the unit, there was like one unit where it was just two people per room. Um, and they may like share a bathroom with like a conjoined. Okay. They were like really, weirdly built units too. Um, so what the cleaning stuff there, you had to basically make everything picture perfect, like fold your clothes perfectly, no dust, no marks, no clutter. And then if it wasn't up to standard, um, you would get, uh, I guess basically like points. So each level had a amount of like points that they were allowed to accumulate before they were level dropped. So like, let's say, like, I think like test was six. So I can only make six cleaning mistakes before I dropped, but my, my level was dropped. And so the person that would be checking it, um, their job was called Sherlock. And that was a power trip job, especially. Um, they were not only in charge of like making sure you were like had your shit cleaned, but also, uh, making sure you were in dress code. And we had a very, very strict dress code. The outfit you're wearing not at all within dress code. Probably not. Uh, maybe mine, uh, not my hair at all. Definitely not my hair or my piercings. Um, or my tattoo show. So would they give you uniform or you could still wear your, you've been wear your own clothes, but it was so stripped. So like this was like the day and age of like lowerized jeans. So like if you bent over, everyone's gonna see your ass crack. Yeah. So if that happened, you would actually get in like serious trouble. So like, so fully covered. Yeah. Like, like, like, you know, not quite like pure 10, like, you know, but it was like a place run by Mormons. So like very, very strict like, um, dress code standards and like what you were allowed to like show of your body. Um, if you were a female, you, your hair couldn't be too short. So my hair is almost at that level where it's like, uh, but if you were a boy, and I'm using very general language, because that's how it was, uh, if your hair was too long, you would be forced to get a haircut. If I showed up at Ireland view with this hair, they wouldn't actually make me die it. Um, one of my friends came in with dreads and they made them shave their head. Um, and so like no form of like self identity or anything. Yeah. And like, so like even like to like the, um, rubber bands that you're wearing on your wrist, we had to like wear level bracelets. So that counted as your jewelry. You couldn't wear another piece of jewelry by that level bracelet. You could only wear one other thing on your wrist. You're only allowed to have two pure scenes like one necklace on like it was very, very strict. You couldn't wear all of one color. Um, you couldn't wear haps, you couldn't wear tie dye, you couldn't wear cargo like like cargo shorts, like camo, anything like that. So very, very rigid dress code rules. Um, and so there's like I said, like there's a couple like really important jobs. Um, Sherlock was one. Um, and so team leader, which was a big, big one. So, um, team leader basically was a student that was in charge of the entire team. You're supposed to be making sure everyone's doing their shit. You're supposed to be setting a good example for everyone. You are also expected to, um, essentially dole out punishment to people. So there were times when I was team leader where I was expected to literally pull privileges from people with staff and explain to step, like explain to that person why they get that privt take it away. And a lot of programs use tactics like that. Um, team coordinator basically they were in charge of making sure everyone was doing their jobs properly. They also worked with Sherlock to make sure the cleaning was done properly as well. Team mentor was like higher than team leader. Um, so there would be like one team leader for each team and then team mentor. There only be two on the entire campus, one for the boys, one for the girls. Um, and I, there weren't many people that ever achieved that position, but basically was supposed to be a model for everybody. Um, yeah. So a lot of the time these jobs were used as a means of power and control over people. So not only like staff assigning certain jobs to people for therapy, but also to like make sure that like, you know, people are doing things that they need to do and teaching responsibility. But like, for example, team leader is a mind-focerie field because you're expected to literally abuse other people. Right. Um, so yeah, uh, P.I. 4, I'll mention that a couple of times that's basically just like physical strength. Um, so it could be being held down to the ground in a prone position on your belly. Um, there's also ones where it forced you to like kneel back and like they would force your arms behind your back and they'd have a knee in your back and you'd be standing but you couldn't like really move. Um, so that'd be like another position that we'd use. And they would do that if they felt like you were out of control. Yeah, out of control being defiant things like that. Um, did you notice like that happening in any circumstances where it was just totally uncalled for? Yeah, yeah, like, uh, like unnecessary. Yeah, you know, I'm thinking like the issue with Island View is like there was no, they didn't use de-escalation tactics before they went to like physical restraints. So like very quickly, if they deemed that you were like a problem, like they would be like go to the timeout room and if you refuse to go to the timeout room, that's when you get physically restrained. But like often times like, um, yeah, there just wasn't any de-escalation. Yeah, it was just zero to 100. Um, so yeah, um, I mentioned a little bit about the teams earlier. So I'm just gonna like kind of go through them. Yeah. So there was a silver and gold. So those were the two girl teams. There was green and purple on those were the two boy teams. Um, partly way through my stay there, there was a cow head team. Um, and then there was another team called Diamond. And so during this time, it was weird because people would be admitted, there'd be a bunch of people admitted and then people would be discharged and then there wasn't a lot of emissions. So the amount of teams that were there throughout the time I was there, very much varied by the amount of emissions that they were getting. Um, so when I first got there, I was on silver, but shortly before I got there, um, there were two other teams. So Copper was another girls team and then there was Orange, which was the other boys team. So a lot of the people that were on copper were on silver now. And so part of what happened there is that that dissolved a lot of friendships and a lot of like connections that people had because people were pulled away from the friends and set to different teams. Um, sorry, going through a little bit more of the acronyms. Um, so there's a compass. So let's say you were at the program longer than I was. So you would be my compass. You would basically teach me the program, make sure that I'm following the rules. And that would be the company. That's what we would call it. Um, I mentioned a little bit about like, uh, dress code and body shaming. Um, a lot of like just not a lot of shift skin had to be like, um, very, you had a present of certain view of yourself. If you straight outside of that, they would be like, you're not working the program blah, blah, blah. Um, so there is like a therapy technique that's like actually legitimate that they use there. It's called dialectal behavioral therapy, shortened the DBT. And it's evidence-based. It's actually a legitimate thing. But the program, they're weaponized it and they would use it against you. So they would claim that like, you know, we were out of control and we were all borderline personality disorder kids. You can't be diagnosed with borderline personality until you're 18, by the way. So they were just like labing a whole bunch of kids that. Um, and so yeah, so on our handbooks, there was this phrase that said, we demand greatness, not compliance, uh, which is funny because the entire program was like compliance. Right. And so that would actually be a phrase that they would use constantly against us. And they're like, we're not trying to get you to just comply. We want you to just be great and like, be the greatest person you can be. Um, and so that was kind of a mental fuckery as well, because it was like, well, you're making me behave in a certain way. You're making me follow rules in a certain way. Like, what is this? So like, you really just start sucking guessing like, is this actual abuse? Or am I just being a brat? Am I just being un-thankful? Um, and so one last thing I want to talk about is like a little bit about the medications and like sick beds. So like, if you were sick, you had to actually get permission to stay in bed. So I have IBS. So I have like a lot of like weird stomach stuff and like certainly the food there was not hopeful. And so there was a lot of times where I was in like so much physical pain that they like just wouldn't allow for me to stay in bed. And I was forced to go through that the entire day. And if I like made any like, you know, mention of like being in pain or whatever they, you know, they'd be like, "Oh, you're just being dramatic." blah, blah, blah. So they didn't take any like illnesses that's serious. No, no. And like even in cases like, um, there was like somebody while I was there where she like fell really weird and fucked up her like leg really bad. She ended up breaking her leg essentially. And they wouldn't take her to the hospital. Um, and she was like basically dealing with that like untreated for about three days before her leg swalled up and like she ended up actually having to go to the hospital. So like they're like, you know, in my case, the IBS kind of will, you know, tell me hurts socks, but in cases where you fucking break a bone, that's not right. Yeah. So that any questions about that stuff before I do have one question that. So were you allowed to bring anything in like have any books or anything like that? Yeah. Yeah. So like, um, I'm actually just about to go into my intake. Go ahead. Yeah. So, uh, so we got on the plane. We ride in Syracuse, Utah from the Salt Lake City Airport. Um, and so when we first arrived my dad and I, we went into the administration building and so the administration building was basically like sign intake paperwork, blah, blah, blah. Um, and I was told during that time that I was not able to call my family for two weeks. Um, so that I could focus on working the program and I could write letters, but letters would be screened before they, they were sent out. And so, um, I also asked about school accommodations because I was in special education and I was told that like everyone here had, uh, since everyone here had like special educational needs, there was no need for specializing accommodations because the program was built to help every student, which was bullshit. Um, and because they basically made it to where I no longer had accommodations when I left island view and went into a normal high school, I no longer had accommodations. Um, so that made my senior, your absolute hell. Um, so I was assigned to silver. That was the first team I was assigned to. And so the intake process after like my dad left blah, blah, blah, was I was brought to unit with my stuff. And I basically went through a prison strip search. Um, most cases now when you go in inpatient, they do not make you strip search to this sort of degree. Like I was expected to completely strip down like button naked spread my ash cheeks cough like the whole nine yards. Like I said, like a prison strip search. Um, and I wasn't wearing any piercings at that time, but I've had friends where that when they went there, they had like nose piercings and stuff and they were told to take them out and people refused and they would force them out. So basically rip out piercings. Um, they also made you do a light shampoo, which was the first time I've ever had to deal with that. And after I was like out of shower, blah, blah, um, my items were like searched through. So like, yeah, you were a lot of have personal effects, but it was like very particular. So you couldn't have too many personal effects. So you're only allowed to have one stuffed animal in the bed, a one extra blanket, only a couple of books. Like you can have pictures, but the pictures had to be appropriate. No phone numbers. You were not a lot of have any phone numbers. Um, no band T shirt. So nothing that they may deem as like an appropriate or whatever, which was very much based on that staff discretion. Um, if there was something with alcohol in it, they wouldn't let you have it, which a lot of things have alcohol in it. Um, so they were like going through my stuff and, um, at this time, I had three roommates. So my, they, my roommates had just come back from school. Um, and so looking around the room, like to the spots that were had people living there, had like personal items, individual clothing. And then there was one roommate that had nothing. There was just sweatpants, no pictures, no real personal effects. And you know, I'm a very friendly person. You know, I'm Gavin. Um, I'm just, you know, very talkative. Um, and so I said hi, and I was immediately snapped at by the staff. And I was told that I wasn't allowed to talk to the person that was wearing sweats. And I was like, why? And they're like, she's on individual focus. You're not allowed to talk to her. She needs to focus on her treatment. Um, and that was like kind of like my first exposure to like that, like snapback punishment. And like luckily, I was literally just being admitted. But if that had happened while I was like at Island View for a long time, I would have gotten in serious trouble for even talking to her. And you wouldn't even really have known? No, no. And like, I could even like, honestly, like the staff could have punished me right then and there, even I would have known many better. And so I think I only had like a couple of days taken away. I was like pretty familiar with like the things I was allowed to not have. I think it was like mainly just like band t-shirts or whatever the fuck. Um, so my first two weeks there, there were like two people that arrived shortly before me and they had made plans to run away. And then these plans were found out. And we had our first big special group. And this is like my first exposure to like the, um, group attack therapy. And I just remember these people being screened at told that they're horrible, terrible people, you know, how dare they ever think about running away, you know, you know, if they ran away, they're going to die, things like that. And then they were put on yellow zone. Um, and so the thing is is that they hadn't even planned on running away. Like they they they hadn't even like attempted to run away. It was just like a talking about it. I've just not wanting to be here. Yeah. And that was you just running away or wanting to run away. Um, And they found out I'm assuming because somebody told on that, yeah, it was snitch just because somebody hurt somebody talking. And you also like weren't a lot to whisper. So if they they thought you were like whispering, you can get in trouble for that as well. And you're also we're not a lot of past notes. Um, and I believe they like passed a note talking about it too. And that's how it was found out. Um, so everyone there was like assigned a therapist and I shared a therapist with like my compass and another person. And his name was Mark Barney. And this dude was so fucking weird. Um, he focused way too much my mom leaving. And um, a lot of his therapy sessions were like focus on like shaming me for being socially awkward, which I just didn't understand like I'm not socially awkward. Um, and like being told that your socially awkward ends up making you socially awkward enough. If you're told that enough times. And so he was like he, I didn't like really perceive having abandonment issues at the time, but he was just like focused way too much of my mom leaving and stuff like that. And I told this therapist that like I had watched porn before and he like shamed me for it. And we're just like, that's a ugly thing. You're not allowed to like it was just very much like, you know, you're not allowed to like be a person because sexuality is not allowed. Right. Um, didn't help that was lesbian porn, you know. Uh, so because I was like repeatedly told by like staff, um, and peers that all socially awkward, I became socially awkward. And then they put me in like social skills group, which is basically like, what's emotionally abused like neurodivergent people. Not that time I didn't know I was neurodivergent. So it was just very much like why am I being taught how to have a conversation and like, you know, it just felt very much like wait, like maybe I am socially awkward because like I was putting her in this is a thing that's meant to help me. Um, and they're professional, supposedly, so they shouldn't have best. Right, right. And so I learned like very quickly that you could not trust people. Um, I remember this interaction with like my first set of roommates, um, where they were like all calling themselves out. And I was like, no, like y'all are pretty like blah blah blah. And later on, like they had like saved that away. And later on they used that in problem solving group against me and made it out to seem like I was a predator and like I was flirting with them. And, um, while I was there, like people knew I was gay and like they would focus way too much on like me being gay. And like it was a bad thing like that was why I was there. Um, and there was at one point where there I had like 13 slips dropped on me and the problem solving group and like during problem solving group, it was all the residents, all the staff and all the therapists that were assigned to that team. So having 13 people in a row, basically, I'll tell you that you're horrible piece of shit. Not a real warm and fuzzy meeting. Uh, and so I very quickly started developing like this crying stress response where if I felt like somebody was mad at me was upset or like, you know, something bad was going to happen. I started crying and then I was shamed for it. I was told I was being attention seeking. I was being dramatic. And so I learned how to numb myself out because if I didn't, I would literally get in trouble for crying. Um, and if you cried, what was the punishment for that? So it could vary like they could put you like with me, they would take away like privileges like free time, they would take away like, um, like outings, like literally anything that they could, um, they could also put you on communication restriction or yellow zone even or just like based or even individual focus and just be like, you're not focusing on your treatment, you're not working the program. Because you're too emotional. Yeah, because you're having a fucking trauma response. Who would have thought? Um, and so I only saw my dad once while I was there. Um, he visited me in February. Um, and we had, it was like an off campus visit. So it wasn't even overnight. It was just like for the day. This staff come for that as well. No, no, but like while you were on leaves of absence, leaves of absence, you had to follow the program rules. So you weren't a lot of half caffeine. You weren't allowed to do anything with your body that like was against dress code, things like that. And so because you knew that you had to follow the rules, it basically, you were constantly monitoring yourself. You're constantly making sure that you were doing exactly what you needed to do. And this created this like inability to break the rules because if you broke the rules, something bad would really, really happen. Yeah. Um, and so my dad visited me in February. Um, we had a really good visit. Um, I didn't really have issues with my dad. Other than like, dude, why don't you stick up for us? Um, I found out later on that like my stepmom basically would not let him come see me anymore. So she basically made him abandon me at the program. Um, and there was a lot of anger towards my dad for that because I didn't quite understand how much control my stepmom had over my dad at the time, but um, it was a sense of like, okay, you don't want me as a part of this family. You don't want me as your kid. Okay. I guess I just have to be here. Um, it probably felt like to you were just in there and like forgotten about. Yeah. And that was like very much pointed out by the staff while I was there. Like it was very much well known that I did not have family therapy, which was usually a requirement because when I had family therapy, it was just with my dad and like very quickly, just like your dad's not the problem with your stepmom, which is like weird because they were being pieces of shit towards me. But even these assholes were recognized that my stepmom was abusive. Right. Um, and they were like, dude, like you need to do family therapy with your stepmom. And I was like willing to like actually do family therapy with her because at that time, I wanted to, you know, be a good kid. I wanted to have a good relationship. I, you know, I didn't want it to be all this tension. And she just refused. Um, so I was like one of the only residents there that did not have family therapy. Um, and so my first therapist, Mark, he left within like the third month and like it was weird because like the staff were like, oh, well, you have abandonment issues because your mom, you must be so emotional. Well, well, I didn't give a fuck about this dude. Like he was just kind of an asshole and I didn't really like him. But like, that like insisting that I was upset, that insisting that I had an emotional attachment, like made me like believe that I did and I started acting out, you know, the more time you tell somebody something, yeah, the more they respond with it. And so my next therapist was this like ancient dude. Like he was like probably like 85 years old. Like, I don't, this dude's probably not alive anymore, but his name was like Richard Mendelssohn. Um, and I remember telling him that I was bisexual and he looked me dead in the eyes and he was like, you don't tell people that. Um, and he was just like kind of like a weird therapist where it's like, you know, um, it's not, it's not, you know, you'll try, you will do. And like in concept, like that's a okay, but like it was just very much like a, I'm going to shame you because you're gay. I'm gonna make you feel bad for like being essentially assaulted because I could fess that to him at one point. And um, I don't remember honestly doing much therapy with him. Um, so yeah. Um, so I was about like March 2009 when I experienced my first team focus. And a little bit of like stuff that was happening beforehand, there was this one person. I'm not going to name her. Um, bless her heart though. God. Uh, she, I was like in the stall, like the restroom, stall next to her and she like reached her hand underneath. She was like, give me your poop. She was fucking weird. Like funny. It was a joke. And I was like, okay, like, you know, I thought this was an actual joke. Nope. This was not a joke. It turns out that several people were putting poop in their eyes to give themselves pink eye because if they had pink eye, they can go on bed rust and they didn't have to deal with the program. So it was like literally like, we're going to make ourselves sick. So we can avoid abuse. Um, and then at that same time, there were like people playing like the choking game to until like, I mean, you board, you know, you have, you want to feel a little bit high and you know, whatever. But like, so that's kind of what happened. It got us in like team focus. And I remember just like, basically like our team focuses, we were locked on the unit for two whole weeks. We weren't allowed to go to school. And it was just group therapy after group therapy after group therapy meant to break us down and like, be like, y'all are doing so horrible. Bubble. But it was like only like a handful of people that were like doing that shit. But because it was enough people, they punish the entire team because clearly y'all aren't holding people accountable. Right. And I still have a really, really hard time using the word accountability because of how much it was weaponized while there. Um, and so during that like team focus, the co ed team was created during that time because a lot of people had issues with like being like previously sexual assaulted or is having like unhealthy relationships with the opposite sex. And so my compass and several people were moved on to that team. And so again, like another team was split up. And that was actually the team that was preferred to be on because it was like, it resembled some sort of normality. You were allowed to talk to boys. You went on really fun outings. Like everyone there was a higher level. So it was very much like, okay, like, this is just normal life. And so a lot of people wanted to end up on that team. Um, I did not have much interaction with that team until I ended up on it. Um, and so a little bit. So I like mentioned earlier that like I had IBS stuff and like during that time, while I was there, my periods had stopped. And my periods had always been light, but it was like nothing. And I didn't have, I think I went about five months at first, um, before I said something without a period. And I remember going to like the psychiatric nurse practitioner, her name was Frankie. And she said, don't worry about it. It's just from stress. I'm sorry, but if like somebody's that fucking stressed out to where like their body's just like no more like no more periods like, yeah, how do I was 15 at that time? Um, so that's pretty, that's pretty bad. And I went about five years without a period actually. And I was later diagnosed with polysysical variant syndrome. And the treatment for that usually is like birth control stuff like that. And literally it's all that needed to happen. Um, but again, medical neglect, not gonna treat it. Um, probably their least of their concerns. Yeah, I mean, you know, I haven't period. Okay, awesome. We don't have to be pads. Literally less supplies. Right. And like, you know, uh, if they don't want to give you pads, you were just expected to bleed on yourself too. So I was like, you know, I guess I don't have to deal with that. Um, so it was about like my now five months in before I like, make fucking lost it basically. And it was on a Saturday. It was, it was May 3, 2009. I spent the entire year 2009 in this program, by the way. So the entire like year 2009's fucking fake to me. Uh, new Michael Jackson died, but beyond that. Um, so we were going to the computer lab. And like I mentioned that that was monitored, but like I was writing a book while there. So I really wanted to go to the computer lab. But like, with everything that was happening, I just got the sudden wave of like, I wanted to die. I didn't want to be here anymore. And so I got out of line and just went into my room and staff followed me because you're not supposed to leave line. And this one staff, his name is Ryan Mortensen. Um, he followed me into my room. He asked what was wrong. I told him I was suicidal. Um, and I didn't want to be here anymore. And it was really just a cry for support and wanting, wanting connection with somebody. And instead of doing that, he decided to put me on communication restriction and took away my ability to speak. Um, I already kind of had some anger outbursts at that point, but I lost it again. And I ended up kicking him in the balls. And I ended up getting physically restrained by four staff at the same time. And it was on carpet. So I ended up getting like rug burns all over my elbows and forearms. And so in addition to like that communication restriction, I was put on suicide watch. And so I was not allowed to leave the unit. I had to move my bed out into the hall. And they made it to where I had to put my bed directly underneath like those like an emergency light essentially. So at night, I couldn't really sleep because there was light. And they went a lot of me to put like a sock over my eyes as a blindfold because what if I killed myself with it? Talk on the fuck of me, I killed myself with a sock like, you know, get a little creative. Right. You know, like, shove it down your throat. Fuck yeah. Probably would taste better than the food. Probably. Um, and so, you know, I got the PI forward. Uh, I don't know. That's what you were talking about. Yeah, with a prone prone restraint. And so this is the first, uh, the first one to happen within three days. I lost my shit again later on that day, got physical restrained. And then it was about two days later. So when I was on communication restriction and suicide watch, I had to just sit in silence on a couch. Um, and I wasn't allowed to like interact with the group. I wasn't allowed to attend group therapy. I wasn't allowed to do anything. So I just said to sit there in silence, which is like very reminiscent of like what happened my stepmom. So when you would act out, were there ever time that they'd like give you more medication to like calm you down? Yeah. So like when I got physical restrained the third time, uh, because I basically like, it's like, fuck it, we ball. And I got up from the couch and they're like, you're not allowed to do that. And I said, fuck you. And I just like went to my room because I just wanted to be alone. I didn't want to be watched. And they like dragged me out of my bed. And like they called like seven staff. Um, and one of the staff, um, his name was Eric Flores. And he was like a big, big dude. And he was basically sitting on me. And I remember saying, I can't breathe. I can't breathe these like if you can talk, you can breathe. Um, and they basically had like a a blanket prescription for PRN medication if somebody was acting out. So I got like a, I got like a, a PRN medication after the point to call me down. Um, and so I was on the suicide watch communication restriction for two whole weeks. And I would assume that after you acted out, did you get bumped back down the level? Yeah. So I was in a pli at that time. So I didn't, I was on a higher level, but I like, I had the ability to like listen to my walkman. We had walkman and go out off campus and like play some video games, but like they, I was immediately bumped down to orientation. Um, and I would like basically label this as my breaking point. Um, because I had asked for help and I got punished and I was forced into silence. And that was the point where I really started to comply and conform to the program. Because what other choice do you have? Did they have control of like when you would leave? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, um, like I said earlier, like the blanket, like usually eight to ten months could be longer. I was there 16. I've known of a couple of people that were there for 24 months. So two whole years. Um, pretty much right after I got off this like isolation punishment, um, I had improved enough and they gave me back my apply. And then I very quickly started moving up the levels because I was working the program. Um, and I became team leader at one point. And so I'm about like June of 2009, four people decided to run away. Um, they, we had lined up for lunch and they just like basically booked it out the building. I mean, like all the power to you, but they ended up like chasing them down with vans and like got them and it was people on my team. So they ended up pulling us all back from lunch to go have a team focus meeting about this. And so part of the blame was actually put on me because it was my job to keep people in line. And at that point, I was like, like I basically scolded and verbally abused these girls because how fucking dare they get out of line. Um, and our team was put on a really weird team focus where they dissolved the levels, but it was even like worse because it was like nobody had privileges like, but like the people that were good were having like a pizza party while like people were like locked in their rooms and unable to do anything. So it just created further again, like this divide of like, this is what happens when you follow the program. And this is what happens when you don't. Um, and so around this time, silver and gold, which were the two girl teams, there weren't enough people to basically have two teams. So they all dissolved it dissolved into one and became diamond. Um, and during this time seminar, we happened. Um, and so they made it very, very public that my dad was in attending and like how brave I was for attending this seminar. Even I didn't really have a choice because again, what was like an idea refused to do the program. And so I ended up like sitting on a panel, speaking about my experience, while I lived in and I got my test at that point. Um, and they made it a very public sort of, um, thing with like showing it like being like, you know, what you like, his test, well, you know, it's not my name I was going by at the time. Um, but it was like that sense of like basically when you get like a trophy and like you're getting that recognition for all the hard work you're doing, I'm like, well, fuck, maybe I could finally go home. Maybe I didn't, you know, maybe I can go home finally. Um, and around like a month after that, I was switched over to the co-ed team and my therapist switched from Richard, uh, Richard Mendelsson to Jeff LaValley. This dude would like look like a walrus. Um, I, yeah, we like drew a bunch of pictures of him like looking like a walrus and like that's just like the like a walrus and like a fedora that's basically like what's in my head when I think of this, I think of him and um, he did a lot of really shady things. I remember telling him at one point that I had a crush on my roommate and he decided to very publicly say that I had a crush on my roommate and like it made it out into like this like sort of like predatory thing. I'm like, you know, how dare I have a crush on the girl blah blah blah. Um, and he would like shame people that like got too close to the opposite sex like even though we were on a co-ed team and he was just like honestly just like a piece of shit therapist in general. He ended up leaving Island view and basically went to Solstice, uh, West, which is like basically a sister program of Island view, run by the same company too. Um, and so like I said earlier, like Ruby was really desirable because it represented normal life. We had better staff, um, more privileges, cooler outings and that team was, oh, I was only on that team for a little bit until it dissolved and I was moved back to diamond and um, we went on a camping trip, um, as like a team building exercise and like September or October of that time. And I got my test taken away, uh, during this camping trip because I wasn't being enough of a leader. I was told explicitly by my therapist to use this camping trip as a relaxation point. So I was still team, I was team leader on this new team. I was very, very overwhelmed. She's like, dude, just take a break. And another staff said, no, fuck you. You weren't working a program. You weren't showing your peers how to be, you know, a leader. We're gonna take your test away. Um, and my dad was supposed to visit around that time and he was in no show and I was freaking out because like, you know, I just got my test taken away, you know, maybe like they had taken away my visitation. Just didn't tell me, but well, turns out that my dad was actually jailed. Um, and this was around the time when he started using crack cocaine again. And um, he had a speeding issue and wouldn't pay traffic tickets and things like that. And so this was like kind of his escalation of his mental illness and his struggles during this time because his kid was taken away, like his wife wasn't letting him see his kid. His marriage was basically falling apart. And so he went back to drugs because they work. Um, and also with undiagnosed, untreated ADHD, he really didn't have the ability to do this. He needed to do. Um, and so because my stepmom refused to do family therapy, uh, and there was no sort of way of ensuring that I would be safe at home. It was recommended by Jeff at that time that I go to a step down program. And so the step down program I was going to go to was called Oakley School. And it was run by the same company, same things like that. Um, and I went on a tour there and again, false advertising and like beautiful place, awesome classes, blah, blah, which the classes were honestly a breath of fresh air because Island view, our education, there was self-taught. So basically we were given textbooks and had to teach ourselves. And I repeated the same English class three times, not because I failed it, but because I didn't have any other classes to take because I was there for so long. And I was in AP English before I went there. So like, they really didn't know what to do with me. And I really wanted to go that program, but, um, my dad ended up getting fired from his job for stealing copper wire. Um, and I found out later for him that he was using it basically to feel his addiction because his wife had access to the bank account and, you know, I cost a lot of money. Um, and so I was told at that point that I was going to be discharged from Island view, not graduated, discharged. Um, basically means that like you didn't complete the program, but because of like, uh, financials, things, stuff like that, like, you know, um, you basically just get luck go. Um, because my dad lost a job, I was no longer going to a step down program. So I was going to go back home. And around this time, like I, I was like really freaked out about going home. I always really freaked out about, you know, being part of my family, doing anything like that. Um, and so I started kind of like my mental health started decompensating, which is like really intense anxiety and like just feeling very, very overwhelmed because again, I was like in a very structured, strict environment with like a schedule or rules, things like that. And the outside world was so scary. Um, plus I feel like it was such like a sudden, yeah, like you went from that doing that for so long and you're like, okay, you're leaving. And it's like, where's the gradual right? kind of like reintroduction back into like normal life. Right. And because I didn't graduate the program. Right. I was like, well, I didn't get, I didn't finish treatment. Am I going to decompensate? Am I going to get worse? Am I going to end up killing myself? Um, so we went on a cross country, uh, skiing camping trip to like, uh, yirts. We actually didn't get there because I had a mental breakdown on the way there. Um, and so like throughout my time, while there, I had a weird lay camping issues, um, turns out, uh, malnutrition will do that to you, because we weren't getting great food. Um, and basically I got my test taken away again. And the program, uh, I learned you decided to pull a scholarship out of the rest to keep me there longer because it was clear that I needed to stay in treatment. So I went from, okay, you're going to go to a step down program to, okay, now you're going home to actually JK, we're keeping you here longer. And so, how much longer did they end up keeping you? I left April 16th, 2010. Okay. Um, so I was supposed to leave like December, which is where exactly a year mark I was supposed to leave. Um, and they actually kept me there four months longer. Um, and so, I didn't get to go home, but I went on a home all the way and that was the first time I saw my family, the entire time I was really there. I didn't see my brother, I didn't see my grandparents, I barely got to talk to them. And while I was there, I was extremely anxious about breaking the rules. And it like, it got on my head that like, if I broke the rules, they would know. And like, it was this constant like monitoring and sort of self surveillance of yourself to where even now I deal with that. Yeah, like you psych yourself out. Yeah. Because it's like, you know, if I like, I have to constantly monitor myself and make sure I'm not doing these things and it's still a habit I have. Um, even like doing silly things like, you know, if I bend over and skin shows on my back, it's still, you know, the anxiety pops up. So, um, I'm gonna be frank, uh, after that point, I don't remember much. I think a lot of it, I just kind of resigned to being there until I was a lot to leave. And, um, my graduation happened in April of 2010. And most of the time for graduations, your parents show up. And my dad never did. Um, financial reasons, things like that. Um, but I don't know, it, where I ended up going, my dad, you know, I, I think he should have left my stuff, his mom way fucking sooner. Um, but he had reached his breaking point and he ended up actually leaving my stepmom at this point. So we were living in Texas at that time and my grandparents, um, lived in Chicago. And so he actually basically took my brother out of school and is packed, packed up their shit, walking left. Um, and so when I graduated, I actually went back home with my dad, my brother, and my grandparents and my family, they, their awareness of what that place was was very minimal other than like it was a boarding school and I was getting the help I needed. But, did you end up telling them any of that stuff? Over time, but it was clear my behavior that something was wrong. Um, my aggression got worse, my self-hound got worse, I started going in and out of the hospital again. And this was after you already graduated. Mm-hmm. And so, um, my dad, being my dad, didn't refill medication. And when I went back to public high school, they took away, I had no accommodations anymore. And I was just unable to function in a normal school. I was on like, I had a testing accommodation to like have a, like take my test out in another room. Wasn't allowed to do that. First time I ever had to take a test in front of like other people. Um, and so I barely, I barely graduated high school. I did, but I barely did because I was so in and out of the hospital. Um, and so, I, on view, not only took away my ability to like feel safe around people and like in my own body, but it also took away my relationship with my dad. Um, after that point, um, when I graduated, I only had maybe a year and a half of my dad before he passed away. Um, and he got really, really hard into drugs. And because of my behavioral issues, both him and I got kicked out when we were homeless together at one point. And I didn't know he was using crack because my dad was really, really good at keeping things quiet and really good at like being that functioning addict. And he finally just like, it was the night the last Harry Potter movie actually came out and we were like staying at a hotel in the time because he had like worked up enough money. Um, and he was dating this woman at the time, um, and I almost had step siblings and I went back to the hotel. He wasn't there. And so we had to spend all night like looking for my dad and my dad finally called me and said, hey, I need to talk to you about something really serious. Um, can you come back to the hotel? I came back to the hotel and that's when he told me about his addiction and it made a lot of sense why things escalated with my grandparents. Um, keep in mind, I didn't think anything was wrong with what happened with me at Island view. I didn't, I was so programmed, so brainwashed into thinking that that program saved my life because that's what they told us repeatedly that this was saving our life that it had saved my life. And I wouldn't be here without it and things like that. So I didn't even really recognize at the time that it was abuse or that it was what it was. Um, so my dad came out of that addiction that Friday and then I was that kid that was like, you're not leaving my side. And so I was with him all weekend. He and I go through withdrawals, um, was severely suicidal by Monday and I ended up having to take my dad to the hospital. Um, and because we were homeless at that time, even though I was two months away from 18, I ended up being taken away as a word of the state. And then, so that happened in June, July, no July. And then I had my birthday. That was the last time I really saw my dad alive. And so my birthday is on August 27th. And then my dad passed away. He ended up dying of a heart attack September 14th, 2011. Um, and it was really, really sudden. He had actually gotten sober at that time. He had went to rehab, was just working his way like back into like being functional and actually getting help for what he needed to end up passing away. Um, and so that left me up in state care and a lot of other fucking chaotic shit happened. I didn't really get the help I needed until my late 20s, um, which is where we are now. Um, so now, uh, so I was told that I only knew I would have to like take medication for the rest of my life. And so I like battled forever about ever take medications again, because I was so forced to. And now I finally got my ADHD treated. And I'm finally like starting to work through like my trauma and the things that have happened because I've never really had that like safe secure environment to do so because honestly, my entire life is I just laid out has been one fucking shit storm after another. And so it's nearly impossible to process trauma if you're still in it. Um, so I ended up moving to where I currently live in 2018. I got accepted to grad school. Um, and, uh, first social work program because I was really, really passionate about working with people that not necessarily went through the same stuff that I went through, but like working with kids and having like being that person for kids that I needed back then. Because honestly, like I think I would have never ended up at Island view if I had just gotten the treatment I needed earlier. And also if my ADHD was recognized way sooner. Um, and I was mislabeled as my polar and like psychotic like there's a whole bunch of labels applied to me when in reality, I was just a traumatized neurodivergent kid. Um, and so I really wanted to ensure that if I was going to be a professional in the field that I was going to do right by my clients. Um, I've been in a long term relationship for, uh, fuck, uh, just like 2017. Um, we aren't married, uh, planning on it, but waiting for us to both get our masters and stuff like that. Um, I don't know. It's on it like, I don't talk to my set mom. I haven't actually seen my step mom since my dad's memorial. Um, glad I didn't talk to her because I probably would have punched her in the face. Can't blame you. Right? Yeah. I, uh, for a heart like a long time, I was like, why the fuck do they invite her? And they were like, we did not know how bad it was. Um, so yeah. And then what about your mom? So when I was a word of the state, uh, basically because I was in and out of the hospital. Um, so you could be a word of the state past the age of 18. If they're able to deem you not, um, mentally stable enough to like take care of yourself, which made sense. I was very mentally unstable. However, I was being very horrifically abused by that program. Um, I actually had Chicago PD at one point carry me out of like a building because I just like refused to get up and like just lots of different things and I ended up actually racking up majority of my hospital stays while being a word of the state. So, uh, looking at my paperwork, it's like 52 fucking hospital stays, which is like an insane amount. And so I ended up, uh, I was forcing a whole bunch of medication was passing out like it was like basically I live in view 2.0, but like just without the like mental abuse and like group therapy. And so, um, I ended up getting in contact with my mom. And I had heard stories about my mom. I had known that she, you know, she was a little wacky, but like I was like, I don't have a choice because my grandparents don't want me there. Like my relationship with them was like so bad at that time. Um, to where like I just couldn't live there because I got kicked out too. And so my mom ended up, uh, giving me a train ticket, um, to come live with her in Maine. I told them a month ahead of time. I was like, yeah, I'm going to go live with my mom. They're like, no, you're not. I was like, yeah, I am. And so time came and up I left. And before I left, I was like, hey, give my my meds. And they're like, we can only give you three days worth. And with the medications I was on, I was on this one called a fixer and you cannot cold turkey that medication will send you in the hospital. And that's what ended up happening. So I ended up living with my mom for a little bit, but like she's an alcoholic. Uh, this woman drinks about a box of one at night. Uh, and she gets very belligerent, very violent. Um, and she ended up partnering with someone that like pretty horrifically abused me as well. And so I basically had to live there until I got my way into undergrad. And then I immediately moved out and it was in 2017 when I finally filed a protection from abuse order against my mom and stepped out. Um, because of all the things that happened. I was like, my mom, you know, she said if anyone slept with her husband, she was going to kill them and he was raping me at that time. So I would like, I was like, oh, my mom's going to murder me. She ever finds out. And like, so, um, I have not talked to my mom since 2017. When we had that court date, she said, um, the judge was like, okay, you cannot talk to his person. You cannot be with 100 feet. Do you understand? She's like, gladly. I get it. I understand. She was just glad to throw me away. Um, so that's what happened with my mom. Um, my brother is never really had that much contact with her, but because of my experiences, he's not in contact with her either. Are you guys close? No. So because of everything that happened and I was sent away, it's like we're fucking strangers. So I now like, and this is like partially because I learned to partially because of things I have with my stepmom. It was like the sense of my fan. Like, I'm not, I'm a stranger in my own family. I don't belong. And so my family hardly, hardly even knows me. Um, I hardly know my brother. We talked during, you know, some holiday stuff, but because of like everything that's happened, we just not able to connect, not able to, um, have that civil and relationship. And that's something that like I do wish I had, um, because I see other people's relationships with their siblings. And I'm like, I would love that, but I don't have it. Yeah. And the thing is too is I feel like that's such a normal thing to feel, but I feel like that's also possible to form within friendships in a way. It will, obviously, it's not the same. Yeah. But it's like, you can still find that closeness in like a friend or in people. And I think it's important for you to be able to develop those relationships and have them because you didn't have the luxury of having that just like handed to you in life. But you're amazing. Like I feel like everything, seriously, everything you've been through, like you said, like the best way to describe it bluntly is like one shit storm after another just over and over and over. But like, I give you so much credit for being where you are. Like not only being able to talk about it, but like now you're taking that step to help people that, you know, need it the most like you did. Yeah. Which is incredible. And you know, frankly, like a lot of people that went to the program, like I do would never go to therapy again because like we've had so many negative experiences. And I don't know, like I've just been all my life. I've been stubborn as fucking like living out of spite. And I like for a long time, like a lot of this was like out of spite because I was told I was not wearing a college. I was told that like I would, you know, all these terrible things were going to happen to me because I was just incapable of like doing anything. And a lot of it started to prove my stepmom wrong. You know, here I am. Incredible though. Like your story, I just feel like I don't know in so many different ways. I feel like has sculpted you into the person you are today. And obviously you're probably going to have to sort through that trauma for years and years. But I feel like the fact that you're able to recognize it all and be like, okay, this is what happened. It's fucked up, it's horrible. But let me be there to help people that might be experiencing something similar. And I feel like in a way that it almost can heal you as well because you're helping to heal others. Yeah, it could also be very exhausting. Oh, absolutely. I mean, and you know, in social school, we are constantly taught, you know, you have to work on burnout and you really have to work on your shit before you become a therapist. And you have to have give yourself breaks too, like mental breaks. Yeah. And it's hard to because I have learned that, you know, now I no longer work with kids. I work with kids for about like two years, but because of like so much of my own shit is unprocessed with like my family and stuff that like I am not able to effectively work with like children and families because it's not necessarily the kids. It's the parents. And I notice that like moms in particular set me off. And so now like I am working at a practice that is like is respecting my boundary with that. And it's also really like really making sure that I like manage my burnout and stuff like that. But yeah, it's it's hard because like again, like I needed that safe space to actually process stuff. And I was unable to have that. Right. Now I do. Yeah. And I think it's so incredible. Like I said before, like the fact that you were able to share your experience. So like raw and detailed, but also like it was so informative. And I feel like there's so many people probably experiencing things like this, but it can be so hard to express what happened to them, but then also have so much information to educate people of like, okay. And like you said, like early we both said, there can be good programs. But I think it's important to educate people on the not so great because it's very real. And it needs to be talked about because it shouldn't happen ever. And it's horrible because you already experience such abuse in one way. And then you go somewhere for help and experience even more abuse and even more brainwashing and confusion. And it's like when do you get to just live and like be who you want to be? And it takes time. And it's it's so when it's like it was non-stop unfortunate circumstances, but I feel like now is your time to like find yourself and really just take your time to sort through everything and be the person you're meant to be. Yeah, and it's funny that you say that because so like right after my dad died, I like finally learned what being trans was. But for 10 years I never went through any sort of medical transition process. And it was actually about six months ago now that I actually went through with that because I like, part of it was like definitely the conditioning at Allenview of like I had to play a certain role and I wasn't allowed to do that and things like that. And so yeah, like I'm really trying to focus my life on being what I want it to be. And like, you know, yeah, it's not perfect, but I would rather have this than like what I've had previously. Absolutely. And you're able to find yourself and who you are, who you want to be. And like I said, you just work through your healing journey and and process that in the meantime as well. So you did incredible. Really. And like I said, I feel like your story in so many ways like it really it hits home in the sense I feel like in so many different aspects. But it's inspirational because of like where you are today. Really? Like amazing. And you're such a good speaker. Really? So thank you so much. Thank you for wanting to share your story. And thanks for having me. No, sir. Like I can't express it enough. Like I feel like I not only did I learn so much, but you really do a good job of expressing yourself and making people really feel and understand like what you went through. Which I feel like like has it holds a lot of like I guess you could say I'm not power. What's the word I'm looking for? Yeah. Like incredible really incredible job. Seriously. And I'm very happy for you that you know you're in such a good place for yourself now. It seems like and it's always a journey. But you know you got to where you are now. And I think that's something to be really proud of. And even like I said, even coming on here and being willing to open up and talk about it. Yeah. So it's not easy. I'm going to be honest. This is the first time I've ever actually talked about it in like this sort of format. Like actually ever like in order. Yeah. Like as much as an order is like that. I know I jumped around, but like yeah, it's yeah. So it's not easy, but you did incredible. And thank you so so much for coming on and sharing your story. Thanks for having me. Of course.