Surviving Manipulation Street

I bet that wasn't the same. That was it. I decided we were going to go to home. Yeah, why were you expecting something else? I'm just going to keep this one alive. What's up with that? Well, it's not exactly my best radio. It's it! Jane! Thank you, Madam, just did. Your shop is a tap easy tinker. Got it? I'm a cowardly little nobody you really are. Sorry. I've got more innocent people to rest. You want me to spoil the ending? Shh. Shh. There's fucking Christmas! Ho ho ho! Despite the horrors that Corey have subjected us to this week, oh my god! What a fucking nightmare. I am here. Stacey's not. Stacey is busy selling herself in Lanzarotti. But don't worry, I am not alone because. I am joined today by. Fran. You may know her from Twitter as. Fran, Slay them with pride. Fran, welcome to the podcast. Oh my god, Ali. Thank you so much for having me. I feel honored. I feel honored. You have been slaying them with pride online and we're all very, very proud of you. Well, listen, I have gone from barely tweeting ever to, in the last, I would say, I don't know, can't even remember when I came back online really. But I really started online as like an anonymized account. I didn't want to show my face because I had really sort of invested in Swala. And then as time sort of progressed, I met some really incredible people, lovely kind people, you know, one of those people being you. And I slowly, I think, just found my feet and my stride with it. And yeah, that's how we ended up here. So yeah, I feel very honored. Thank you for having me on. No, it is an honor to have you. And it's not only. This is not the only reason we found you, you're on the podcast today because it's been fucking brutal online. The Swala fandom has been a battlefield the last few weeks, hasn't it? Do you know what I describe it as, Ali? And I try and say this to my wife, right? Because she'll be like, why are you bothering? Why are you on there? Why are you investing your time in it? And I said to her, I said, babe, the best way I can describe the Swala fandoms you. So when you, like I just said, when you're an outsider and you're not like a regular tweeter and you know, you're just engaging with people because you're invested in this thing, this, this couple, this fictional couple, it's like Mufasa, right? Sat on the hill or the cliff in Lion King. He's talking to Simmer and he's like, look at the Pride Land. And when I first started, I was looking out at the Pride Land. I was like, this is great. This is like loads of people really invested in this representation. And then Simba says, dad, what's that over there? He's like, that's the elephant graveyard. You must never go there. And then as time progresses and you scroll, and scroll, and scroll and month sin, you're invested. Fortunately, you end up in the elephant graveyard like Simbra Nala. And you're being attacked by hyenas. And that's a very small portion of what we're talking about here. But there's the best way I can describe some of the behaviors that I've seen personally. It's like this, like I said, some amazing people. But when you go into that elephant graveyard, my God, you are very lucky if you're coming out without scratch or a bus or a bruise. Absolutely. And they certainly do hunt in packs. Now, I will, I will mention, I didn't, I probably should have mentioned it at the top of the show, but I will mention today, when I'll be talking about swallow the episodes, what's been happening because today is about the fandom and how toxic has it had been. And I just, you know, you and you have come to the defence of a few people in the last couple of weeks. I know I've been under quite a bit of a tack for my views. And it's not okay. And you know, the stasis away. So we're not talking about swallow. I mean, I don't even want to watch the fucking episodes of the way because they're disgusting. So, so, if they go in to give us shit like this, we're going to talk about stuff like this. So, we're going to get serious today. We're not going to be talking about the actual episodes. We're going to be talking about the fandom and how toxic it has been online and how we are going to work together as a fandom to make it a better place to live or visit or whatever. Yeah. Or, I mean, we're going to give it, we're going to give it a go, aren't we? They'll try. We're not stupid. We don't want to change the world here. But maybe, maybe just maybe we'll change a tiny little portion of Twitter. Maybe make it a little bit nicer for the rest of the. Or even just, you know, even give people food per thought, you know, if you look at what's happened over the past week. And you mentioned the pylons there. I call them the pylons as well. Yeah. And you. it's just not needed at all. And I think that's why it is important to talk about because listen, I got 100 followers. I am a nobody in the grand scheme of things. But I do hope that if I do anything in this life for my family, it's that I give them something to be proud of and to always give them sort of the courage to stand up for what's right when you hear some of the things that you've heard. Not even just in the past week that you see relentlessly, I think it is important to talk about. Yeah. And certainly, the last couple of weeks, there's been horrible stuff last week. I know that in particular, there is a specific account who, I mean, pretty much just spreads, tries to spread love and joy and support for everybody in the fandom. And they were trying to help people going into this week who might be struggling, who might not be able to cope really well with seeing what they were putting Lisa's making Lisa do. All of that shit, like if it is tough. And there are a lot of vulnerable people in this fandom. And we know this, the show should do this. And for some of those people, maybe Christmas isn't the happiest time. Maybe they don't have a lot of family for support. Maybe they're alone or maybe they're struggling for whatever reason. It doesn't even matter because they were offered some support. And there were a few people in the fandom that thought that that was a free for all to just start laughing and mocking and abusing and screenshotting and making fun of people that were perhaps finding it tough. And you came to their defence and you know what? It was fucking brilliant. You should be proud of yourself because I'm proud of you. It was enough to shut them down. Oh, thank you. For a day or two. Yeah, well, yeah. But more importantly, more importantly, what we saw in the days after that were a lot of people that we usually wouldn't see being so vocal had the courage to stand up and say, no, I'm not going to accept that. That's not good enough. You're not going to bully me. You're not going to bully them. Yeah. And that is fucking powerful and you should absolutely be proud of that because it was a wonderful thing to see you empower people that normally don't feel like they have the strength to stand up to these people. They stood up and they said enough is enough. It was great. And do you know what? I just referenced it like I'm just from a small town in the world, small village in North Wales. I mean, there's more sheep than there is people. But I like to think that I have been brought up with, you know, like morals and integrity. And I think what people try and hide behind I've seen in the swallah fandom because I've never been part of any of the fandom and my gosh, it is enough to put you up for life. But I think a really important sort of point to make is that disagreement isn't bullying patterns are. So, so healthy debate is about ideas and and taking people on a journey and talking about what you're seeing in front of you and this amazing couple. But bullying is about people. So critiquing the storyline or the character valid, attacking actors or fans isn't. And I think bullying shows up in repetition and the pylons that you mentioned, the quote tweets for humiliation, the screenshots taken out of context. Some of these accounts have really big follow-ins. They have really big follow-ins. There are a lot of people following them. People take their word and I actually tweeted about this a couple weeks ago is people see such a small snapshot of that timeline. Because it's just the so often gets used as a way to shut people up rather than to engage with what they're saying. So when I saw as an example, it is just the so. I get what I get that phrase but it's not. It comes with a responsibility. And these characters have become what I would describe as emotional sort of anchors and they are people that they feel represented by on screen. Some fans sort of gain validation or status by being sort of loud and dominant and seen and right. But actually, you can't tweet and say, well, I'm a really kind person and I've done this in my past life and this is how I've helped people and I have empathy and I do this and I do that. What are you talking about? to call people a cunt and then you know those those accounts to have really magnified follow-ins and hang on to every word that they say I just don't I personally just don't think it's right and people get scared and they they don't think that they can that disagree and you know what yeah okay it's a soap yeah and it's easy and it would be easy for us to walk away I don't give it I really don't give a fuck I'm happy to walk away but but every time I almost go to do it I think no fuck them they don't get to fucking win how dare they if I walk away that's one less person that's sticking out there anybody else that's getting bullied by them and I think they're a fuck you mate I'm not knowing because of you I'm not gonna get bullied I've a walk away when I'm ready exactly so fuck you it's basically what I am saying so in terms of like it's a soap so my thing is I hate that I don't think you can call something like you can't come out and go okay this is great like when and this when I'm saying the we like the show when the show can't say we are positive representation you know we're doing this properly you know we're we're really you know doing it you know because because we know that that's the case we know Vicky and Ali are really invested and and this is nothing this is no attack on them at all because they give it everything they've got they really do but the show the show is happy to go with positive representation when it suits them but then when it doesn't they'll be like oh but it's just a soap so we can bring someone back from the dead and then have you know at least a slate with her dead ex-wife and and then we'll kidnap color and like what like come on and then the mix messaging that we get where it's like hang on so hang on are we positive representation now or are we just a soap like there's no there's no signaling that we're switching gears now it's like okay we were serious before but now we're not okay we're not we're not now um and that I have a real problem with you can't have it both ways what do you want to be do you want to be a ridiculous side bring people back from the dead and have the most ridiculous storylines ever and everyone's with everyone and no one has any morals and who gives a fuck because that's not representation that that's not my representation fuck that no no and I think lesbian representation in soaps is very limited that's be honest it is the first and lesbian soap representation and I say representation loosely because she got scrutinized for being a lesbian in the soap was Zoe Tate from Emma Dale and those relationships are often very short-lived um tragedy yeah exactly not far from you um but when I think when something like representation and you look at Swala right yeah it's that that for me when the producer of the show the show says you know we're gonna say the producer of the joke because you're not wrong the producer of the show the producer of the show the producer of the show says you know I want this to be the representation my children see on screen well I definitely do not want it at this moment in time to be what my children see on screen and I think that um for like at the beginning it was amazing and when I heard that heard her talk like that I was like oh my god and I do understand I really do understand and I'm not naive that soaps need drama but when something feels rare like Swala and I think that's why people feel so threatened the motion emotions naturally run much higher and that criticism can feel really sort of personal because people see parts of themselves reflected in this in this couple like who are amazing and um if you look at yeah Vicki ally of the age you know what I mean yep this but this couple you cannot many a factor this kind of phenomenon you can't you know where in the world could you go okay let's do this this and this and we'll we'll create the super cup it doesn't yeah you cannot manufacture this kind it is lightning in a bottle it is magic that they literally just cooked their golden goose if you ask me they were golden they were top tier they were extraordinary they were something that we could all be proud of and that is why that is why they have such a huge following that is why they have a following that reaches across the globe and it is why they have a whole bunch of new viewers that don't watch soap that are invested now because they are a higher standard than that show is used to putting out there so if that was me I would fucking run with it and continue to raise the fucking bar but what have they done they're in the fucking gutter they are in the gutter right now and it is an embarrassment to the show and it is disrespectful to both actresses that have done nothing but try and deliver the representation that we fucking deserve and they don't deserve this no and I think when I think when you just mentions it a moment ago that when stories are told without sort of clarity or care they reinforce really harmful stereotypes or make people question their own reality and I think particularly around what we've been talking about over the last week which I think is so harmful which is consent and abuse and and I think that's where responsibility like comes in yes it's fiction yes it's a soap but soaps have always tackled what I would describe as real world issues because they reach people who might never sort of read a report or watch a documentary or can enjoy you know sort of you can enjoy the story and still acknowledge its impacts those those two things are mutually exclusive in my opinion well soap as a genre because it because it's I mean it's supposed to be a little bit slower it's not it's not it's not a it's not a high end drama it's it's supposed to be a little bit slower it's supposed to be about the characters and that's when you are invested in the characters that's when you can teach people things and that's the best way to teach people when they don't even know they're being taught a lesson because they care so much they're invested and I feel like they're they've got this you know you've got I mean it's an hour at the moment it'll be half an hour but half an hour each day people are letting you into their homes that's not nothing that is incredibly powerful and I always like to go back to this is a very Australian analogy here but there was a study here not that long ago but obviously long enough that because neighbours has just ended recently God I love neighbours oh I mean how good neighbours it's such a show it's such a shame but anyway we're not we're not talking about neighbours but there was a study done here that said if you wanted to the best way to get a message out if you wanted to reach the most amount of people you would be better off getting that message to come from Carl and Susan from neighbours then then that message coming from a Hemsworth brother yeah exactly that's huge that's huge that is huge so yeah okay it's just a soap but it's also an incredible medium that has so much potential to teach people and shape opinions like yeah yeah yeah I don't if you agree with this but I don't think there would have been as much divide as we've seen like there has been unhealthy divide in this in this fandom for a while but more so the past sort of a couple of weeks because it's not been correctly labelled and it's not been signposted in the same way that Todd and Theo's story has and I think so well we if you I mean you've seen some of the replies in you know in some of my tweets soaps are emotional lifelines for some people and I genuinely worry about some people that reply and I'm not equipped or qualified to help those and support those people I know there are other accounts online that are trying to to support them but I think that relentless sort of negativity can deepen anxiety and depression and isolation and already what is an incredibly horrible time in the world and I think that's why the signpost in and the labeling shouldn't fall on fans or actors it should fall on the people who produce the show yeah it's the responsibility is the responsibility of the show to correctly label and to correctly handle things like this and to make sure if they are going to cause distress which they shouldn't be causing distress by the way but if they know that they are showing something that is disturbing that they point people to the right place and look that might not always work but we've seen what happens when it doesn't get labelled correctly this is fucking this is chaos it's fucking chaos and it has divided an already marginalized community group of people yeah yeah and what for like so okay let's go back and we'll go why are these you know queer storylines especially lesbian storylines or women loving women storylines why are they so popular I mean I know that everyone I know that the fandom gets a bad rap because oh why are they also crazy about it it's like you know why we're also fucking crazy about it can done happen very often done happen very often at all you know when we get a character like Lisa fucking swan who by the way I mean I know I know that plenty of people I know that plenty of people have attacked me during the week ♪ Deep in the middle of me ♪ - Good old team who, Alimic Beale, is a Lisa Swain hater apparently, even though a couple of, like, a month ago I was the number one Lisa Swain defender. - But what even is that? Why would it, why does anyone in their life have time to say something like that about you? - Well, this is the thing. So, okay, I love Lisa Swain. I fucking love her. She's an amazing character and I fucking created a fucking podcast about her and this couple. Like, let's be honest, I mean, some of this content that I've put out, and I'll be honest with me, when I do content, it's largely Lisa, it's heavily skewed toward Lisa or not Carla. I love Carla, I do love Carla, but I love Swain. She has always been my favourite character since the day she stepped onto the cobbles and when she became a full-time character, I was fucking wrapped when they made her gay. I was like, "Fuck in Christmas!" Not all this Christmas, like, 'cause this Christmas sucked. But like, I love her. And me questioning what they've been doing at the moment to her character, which has, it's been reprehensible, if you ask me. That isn't me hating Lisa. That is me stepping back and going, what is the people that are, this is not about what Lisa has done to Carla or what Lisa is doing with Becky. Well, it is, it is, it is, we're stepping back. It's not about the characters. It is about the producers of this show deciding that it was okay to take a fucking golden, fucking golden couple and the best, I'm not like the best fucking lesbian we've had on TV in whatever, maybe ever. A long time, yeah, a long time. She's certainly fucking tops for me. (laughs) - But she is, she's an all-round, just not a, not just the, I just realised what you said. But not even just her character, things that the character has gone through to get to that point, right? To the point that she is at today, like she's an all-round character. I think that's why people are struggling. - Well, yeah, but I would always defend her. And I've defended her when like other people of like George, you can't defend her here. I'm like, you wanna make a bet? 'Cause I really relate to her. And that's why I get really offended when they've done this. 'Cause one of the things that I would always go to is Lisa Swain. She's honest, even when it's not in her best interest, she's honest. She'll tell the truth. Even if it's gonna cause drama or awkward, she'll always tell the truth. But she hasn't done that throughout. This is why I think people struggle right. 'Cause that's not how the character's been written through the story, which you can understand. I think there's a very famous affixing a called Carrie Fletcher. And she wrote a song last year called Two Things Can Be True. And I maintain this. You can feel a tremendous amount of empathy for a fictional character and what they're going through and the little unbelievable situation of your wife coming back from the dead that she's in. But you could also criticize the way that that character has acted towards the other fictional half of Swala. And how she's treated her and that's not a critique of the actress that is a critique of the character and how it's been written. And I think that's what people, in my opinion, struggle to differentiate personally. I can't believe that I'm being attacked for questioning why there's been such a dramatic shift in the way this character is being written. I know. Because this isn't the character that I have felt fallen in love with. And, okay, yes. Now we have the answer to every question that you have is now manipulation. This is where I'm running into so much hate and I'm copying so much abuse because I dare say, hang on. Yes, okay, even if she, even if there was 20 years of manipulation for starters, the show has not shown that. They haven't shown it. They haven't, they haven't delved into it. They haven't even shown us one single reason why Lisa would have even been in love with this character. No. That's the biggest problem. We're saying he's going, what? Why was she even with her? I mean, that's why people struggle. Well, because we saw a cry for 12 months. Yep. We saw a cry over this character. And everyone thought she, the Becky Swayne on Lisa Swayne's desk in that police station is not the one that's on screen. Nope, certainly not. And not just in the physical sense. No, not in the physical sense. Like it's the one we described. Yeah. Yeah. This is not, this is not the same character. And we know why. We know why. So that it's even more maddening that people are trying to twist what we're seeing now to retrofit what we were told. Because we know that it's red-conned. We know that they never intended to, when they started out, this wasn't where they were going. That's why we had a lovely Becky Swayne that we all, I loved, I loved, I loved Dead Becky. Yeah. You listened to old podcasts. And I feel like I need to make this very, very clear. When I was talking about Becky and saying lovely things about her, I was talking about OG Becky. No. Becky. Yeah. This Becky is demented. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That one I will agree with when that person calls it that. But is it a corruption storyline? Is it a coercion storyline? Like is Becky, like, did they have a love each other? I mean, there are so many, the coronation strip have done so many amazing flashback episodes. I think we were robbed of one here. And I think it would have given much more context to what we're lacking on screen. Yeah. I mean, first things first is that they should have established why Lisa was conflicted when Becky came back. And I think this would have been a better story to tell if she hadn't been able to be honest. If she could, if OG Becky came back and was lovely and it was a choice between lovely OG Becky and Carla and they told that really well and didn't have Lisa be deceitful. And I know that people are saying, oh, she's been deceitful. There are many things that she has not been honest with. She told, I mean, so many times she's told Carla there's nothing to worry about. There's nothing to worry about. I don't love her. She doesn't want me back. Knowing full well that she does want you back, she's hit on you multiple times. She tried to kiss you multiple times. She asked you for a shower. There has been multiple things. And the whole time she was, Carla was in Ireland. It was just, it was Lisa swain sinking to a load that we should never have seen. Like, I get the conflict and I'm not saying that I don't understand her. Yeah, okay, she's confused. The characters come back, but I think at the heart of it she should never have been made to be deceitful and omit stuff to Carla and not tell Carla stuff and not discuss her feelings with Carla. That was the problem. Oh, yeah, and I absolutely agree with that. I think, no, I think she, well, that time, so that was like October time, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So I think around about that time, you thought that's when I personally saw a bit of a narrative switch and people say, oh, this or this or I think that's when the divide really started. And I think that's where, yeah, they were afraid of, and you still see it now, like, it's just shame people have to start their sentence with, I love this character, but it comes, it comes back to that two things can be true definitely is you can critique her and still have empathy for her. But also that's where the divide for me really sort of ramped up and started and where I saw much more hateful sort of behavior towards other people online for their opinions, saying oh, well, Lisa's like, it's a personal attack and like, it's one, and I think that's where the lines get scarily blurred is when people cannot differentiate the difference between the actor and the fictional character. They put on earth, how on earth have we got to this point? I don't. Well, the the other thing is to be of any, like you just, you cannot criticize, you cannot question anything about Lisa's way in at the moment without being absolutely, like you let up at the bottom of the pile on that's the horrible, horrible things that people have said to me, just because I question and I'm not even, and I'm not being rude and I'm not saying mean things. I'm asking questions like, hang on, is it really okay that Lisa can sleep with Becky and then go downstairs? Why did she need to in that story just may I? She absolutely didn't, it was disgusting. They pushed the laundry far there and they really have blown it in my eye. but that's a whole other. - It's just a soak, so let's not go there. - Just a soak. - For me, it was, I'm asking questions like, is that like that, that's not okay. I don't feel okay about that. And for me, like people are going, oh, she called her to the love of her, like you're hang on, but like she's just, she's just, she's just had some feral skank all over her in Carlos house, in Carlos bed. Wearing, wearing Carlos engagement ring, she's been defiled, and then she goes downstairs, and because she sends her a voice note, say, - Hey, Carlos, it's me. So it's Christmas Eve, babe. And I can't stop thinking about you. I want you. I want you back in my life, and I'm gonna do whatever it takes to get you back. It's you. And I'll only ever be you. I'll love you. - Hang on, that doesn't sit right with me. And why is everyone clamoring over themselves to defend that kind of behaviour? - Can I ask you a question, Ellen? Do you think if the actress that plays Carla Conner was online, would they be as defensive as they are a police assay? - Oh, look at you go. That's a good question. I don't know because you know what we, I mean, no, actually, you know what, I think there'd be a lot more people clamoring to the fender because they want the attention of the actress, yeah. And Ali King is not on social media. And you know what, not a lot of people going, hang on, what about Carla? Honestly, put yourself in color, she's, and this is so important because in terms of general audience, we know that lesbian characters, lesbian ships, they do get criticised more heavily by the general audience than they should. But we know that that's always been the case, that will always be the case. They need to be, they need to be better than anyone else. And as soon as they make a tiny mistake, they will be absolutely crucified. Now, that is what is happening here. So when we are framing Orvetch, the show is trying to frame Lisa as Carla's soulmate, someone who is better than all of those fucking scumbags that came before her. She know what, you know what, it doesn't, it doesn't bode well for soulmates when she's fucking Becky Swain with her engagement ring on in Carla's house, in Carla's bed, while Carla is locked up in a fucking closet. And I know that Lisa doesn't know that, but come on! The show shouldn't have done that, that is fucked up. - Yeah, I think it's, I think it was definitely a choice. - It's a choice, all right, yeah? - I know, I'm like you, I'm an original Swain fan. Before I was ever a Swale fan, I was a Swain. And I think there was no need to take the character where they took them. But I think a lot of that responsibility and the things that have led us here are to do with the language at the start of the storyline, which was, it's gonna be a really fun ride. - Joyable ride, people. - Well, this is gonna be an enjoyable ride, but don't worry 'cause Kate Brooks said that they are gonna emerge from 20, 25, stronger and more united. Ha, sucked in, suckers because they're not even together. Fuck you, this is not my, this is, she, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed, I was so excited when she. - We should get her on the pod. - I am more than happy if she came on. I'm more than happy, this is the thing online as well. I'm not just gonna attack things without having a good reason. But people, you know, people don't wanna see that in a tweet. They don't wanna know why you've said it. They just wanna, you know, headline. And I'm angry, I'm angry because I'm so deeply disappointed. And I'm, honestly, this is a deep cut. I've, this one hurt because we, I mean, I don't know if you're the same as me, but I've been around the block a few times and, you know, we've seen this happen before. We've, we've seen this one before, haven't we? And we knew, and we came into it and we thought, oh, here we go again, here we go again. But they gave us all of this assurance. And initially, they, they fucking delivered. It was fucking golden. So we go, okay, so you've got us on the hook. But they were getting us on the hook. They knew all along. They knew what they were gonna do. And that feels like such a deliberate betrayal and it hurts. It hurts a lot because we knew better. We knew as, let's be in media consumers of a certain age, you, not to listen to that bullshit. And we got sucked in and look what happened. We've all had our hearts absolutely broke. We've absolutely been stabbed in the heart over there, same way. Yeah, well, I think a lot of people feel very strongly about it. Think if you look at, I had this debate with someone the other day as well, which was they were, I always think, you know, critique the choice that the producer has chosen, not the person. And you see, well, you see the abuse that she gets online, which is something I really, you know, I don't agree with publicly shaming her or, you know, she's a woman with a family and, you know, that's not who I am. But I did say to this person, no, it's about critiquing the sort of professional choices. But she's opened that door to that attack by not labeling it correctly at the beginning. Do I think this was meant to be a manipulation, coercive control, gaslighting, whatever anyone wants to call it, which may I add, I had this debate with someone the other night as well, is someone saying to me, it has been labeled correctly in the media. No, it has not. Manifulation is the behavior, coercion is the control and the sustained behavior and ongoing issue. You know what I mean, like, manipulation is the behavior that is forms part of coercion. And it's not been labels. If you look at how damaging that actually is to label something as a fun ride, I think that is a real, real, real attack and insult on people who have experienced and are experiencing coercive control. And there's been no signposting, there's been no help on and support. And I think that's where she's done herself a disjust this, in labeling it a fun ride because it, listen, I'd rather get off it. I know that she made those comments really late in 2024. And you can say, OK, well, things changed. And I do get that. I do get that things changed. So when she came out in October and she did another media call and she, there was another interview. And I was really looking forward to seeing what she had to say because I was sort of getting that vibe that that initial assurance that she had given was about to run out. Like, it was expiring. I felt, because, you know, it is on a television show, on a soap. Things do change, directions change. So something that she said a year ago, OK, I do understand that that may have changed. But when she came out in October and then doubled down on that assurance, I thought, no, that, that, unacceptable. I just think that that was the wrong thing to do. Absolutely the wrong thing to do. I agree with that. And I think in October, should the opportunity to say, well, look, this is a coercion story. It shouldn't have been any actors' responsibility to stand up at Corridel and say, well, you know, this is what the story is. We're talking about Vicki here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she came, so, I mean, obviously she's been vocal. She's, I mean, she didn't want this storyline. I think at the superwords, she, the poor thing, won all of the awards. And then the only thing that was asked her on the fucking afterwards was all about Becky's way, Becky's way, Becky's way. And it's like, oh, yeah, just one of the best couple of awards with Ally King. But let's talk about Becky. Mm-hmm. She wasn't happy. She knew that this was, I mean, let's, let's, let's, let's just say right now that we know for a fact that the writers room were heavily arguing against this storyline happening. Oh, yeah, that was on, I can't remember. It was on a podcast. It was on a podcast. Jamie very said. She was asked about it. And she said, I was really against the idea. I was so angry about it. And I was saying, we can't do that. We'll totally break faith with the viewers. And we've, and it's totally undermines all that we've suffered alongside Lisa. And we believe you take grief. And, and also I thought, you know, it made the police look. Well, very corrupt or some of them stupid or I was worried. There was lots of story points that I felt were like holes in the story. and that, you know, yeah. we couldn't possibly do it as ridiculous and outrageous and one of those kind of dropped the sharp moments. It seems like the majority of the writers room did not want to do it. And it went back and forth for a while. So the writers didn't want to do it. And obviously, Vicki, who plays Lisa Swain, did was not happy. She did not want to do this because for the probably the same reasons. I went, oh no. Oh no, no. Then when we talked about it and we went further into sort of Lisa and Vicki's relationship and what that was like and when they first met and so on. I thought actually that's a really interesting story to tell. And where it ends up, I don't know. But for now, I thought it was something that needed to be told. It was a bit, I don't really want that to happen. But once we discussed it, it became clear why it had to happen. And I think it's that that's much of an important why it's happening. Oh my gosh, I don't know if I can reassure them about much to be fair. Well, we know that obviously Vicki is back. There's a lot to unpack with that. And there's still obviously 20 years of history between Lisa and Vicki and obviously Vicki is Vicki's mum. What's going to be really interesting for the viewers to watch is this whole dynamic play-out. And have our understanding as to this history that they got together and where they were 20 years ago, what was happening 20 years ago, where these two women found something in each other and then had to wait to get married. So yeah, there's a lot to come. But she sat down with Kate, the head of discussion and whatever was said, she was convinced at the end of it that this was a story that needed to be told. Now that story has to be. How does it sound? Well, yeah. This is a thing. So this was in July. So a couple of months after the storyline begins, we've got, okay, we're switching gears now. But there's no. The show hasn't told us this. And this is the words of an actress. They are quite powerful, especially in this fandom. So when Vicki says this is a story that needs to be told, we believe her. I believed her. I mean, I was a little bit like, I'm like, okay, hey, it's okay. 'Cause I didn't want the story. I never wanted this story. I thought it was a bad idea. I was inhibited against it from the beginning, even before it was a thing. And when Vicki said it was a story that needed to be told, I was like, okay, still don't want it. Still think it's a bad idea. But maybe they won't fuck it up. Yeah. I think that's where, you know, you need. The audience needs to have an appreciation for the fact that actors are not their characters. But I think what you get with someone like Vicki, was it Ally this year or last year? She's currently. Yeah. Currently, Ally, currently, Ally of the year. And you cannot argue what an amazing Ally she has been and is. And it means you can hear the passion when she talks about her character. Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, and this is my perception, I personally do not know Vicki bias. She should not be the outlet for frustration with the producers or the producers, you know, this. Whoever decided the story, she should not be the outlet for people's frustrations. And I think. No. Oh. Look how much scrutiny and abuse Lisa has had online. And she should not have. No. I have not abused her. I will just add. But I have scrutinized her and I have gone, what the hell is she doing? And that's because it wasn't framed correctly. And that's where that sort of huge imbalance comes from with people being targeted. Because her behavior has been pretty grubbed. Is that an Australian slang? Oh, do you. Is this sort of thing? Maybe this is what. Oh my god, maybe this. I'm gonna stop calling you or grubbed it. Okay, sorry guys. Different men, something else. I think it does personally in the UK, but I'm not sure. I've never heard it before. I think this is why I'm getting attacked. If I have. If I call myself being horrific, I apologise. No, I just mean like. Like a grub is just like, "Oh, she's a bit like. It's just, you know, not all about a boy." It's not like. You know, she's just. You know, she's telling little fibs to Carla and then going and getting a bit too close to. You know, it's just. It's not like. It feels a little bit dirty. You know, dirty in a relationship sense. Yeah, I understand what you're trying to say. Yeah. I mean, start using grub. Okay. Maybe it may be done, it'll get. I understand why you've labeled the character. Yeah, it's a little bit grubby. Like, it's just. It's a little bit dirty. Yeah, I get that. Like. It's not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. It's not okay. You're better than that. And this is the thing. I'm not calling her that because I hate her. I expect better of her. Because two things can be true, Ellie. Yeah. It's like, I want better for her. I want better for us. I want this representation that she. I want better for the actress. She has worked so hard. And let's. Yeah. Let's be very clear. No one. No one is saying that Vicki has not been amazing. We have struck gold with that one. We know that. She. She's like the people's princess of soaps. She really is. And we could not have asked for a better actress to. You know, to be playing her. She's great. And we love her. And that's not the issue. And I feel for her because this must be an incredible amount of pressure on her. Because I know that people. You know, a lot of people share their stories with her. And I. There must be so much burden to have all my stories. And know how important this representation is. And then also go, oh, you get your script to go, I'm doing what? Like, oh. Well, did I say. I think I said it to you, like, imagine what. What people are experiencing online because of this story. Yeah. Storyline. And the abuse that they've sort of encountered. Yeah. There's one that's like. Stuck with May over the past few days, which is. Someone got a tattoo, a swallow. And as a result, they were told to kill themselves. And I think. Like, Vicki must receive so many messages. I mean, I see a tag didn't stuff all the time. I don't follow her until the other week. But she gets tagged in things all the time, trying to sort of bring her into things or highlight in something. And some of those things are really lovely. And, you know, people be just. Like, it's so kind. But how much must that weigh on her? Oh, 100%. And I think. I think about that. Like, does a huge. Like, you said, that responsibility. She's on the receiving end. And she must come online and go, "Bloody hell." Like, this didn't need. Well, I think that. I said it in my tweet. I don't think it was fair on her to have to come out and say it. And I think it's interesting in the fact that. Or, particularly, the situation is that, you know, the question of control and that manipulation and that. She used to be 20 years old, so she's questionin her relationship that she had with Paola in that sense. But she's also grapple with hearing that she's lost her feelings. She knows what it feels like. She had to protect that sort of thing. She's wetty as in the world. So, she's. So confused at the moment. She's emotionally fraught, she's mostly distraught. And it's whether or not she will eventually get to see her. That's not so completely into me. They need the mirror to society. And if somebody can see them both in that situation, and then they see the back how manipulative it can be and how destroyed it is, we have seen it totally different. So, I think that's really what that is. Okay, so let's. We're not saying anything bad about Vicky here. We are saying that she should not have been left to be the sole voice that was here saying, "This is manipulation, this is gaslighting, this is abuse." Exactly. And I'm sure. And I know just from what we've seen online that I know that there are people that. that write to her and tell her that, you know, you're the reason. You're the reason that I'm still here. You know, I've gone through tough periods and. And, you know, Swahler was the reason that I held on. And, you know, the reason I came out. Yeah, but listen to this example. This is the prime example, Ali. When all that backlash happened the other week, from someone replying to a tweet of mine. Someone, a day later, replied and said, "I've been really disgusting about Lisa online." And I've realized it's because I've seen myself in her. In her position. And I didn't want to admit it. I've been in denial. And I think that for me carries a huge responsibility and a lot of reason why this should have been labeled responsibly. But what I will add is, there is. You know, imagine Vicky saw that reply. I'm sure she would. I don't know her, but I'm sure that is something that she would take personally. That, you know, that representation that she is and has talked about. She saw that. I'm sure she'd be like, "Oh my God, that's huge." why this hopefully and why she rightly relieved it what it is and why the show should off. - So we've had Kate Brooks twice say, "In joyful ride, you know, this is the stronger of more united, we get to July and she tells us and Vicki tells us, well, this is a story that needs to be told." So you think, okay, but maybe it's a bit serious. Maybe it's not an enjoyable ride, but the mixed messaging, so you know, okay, we're still being told that they're gonna be together, stronger, more united. So everything's fine. They bring this fucking character back to ridiculous, it's a ridiculous storyline, but they've done it. They haven't done in my opinion, in my opinion, they haven't done a very good job of it. That probably is reflective of the writers not wanting to do it, but there have been so many fucking holes in this story. It is a joke. It's like they are not even trying, and that is a huge problem. So then we get to, I don't know, when was the first time that she said, I mean, it's only recently, I think like Corridale, Premiere, maybe two weeks ago, yeah, almost two weeks ago, was probably the first time that she was out publicly saying, this is manipulation. This is what Lisa had gone through for 20 years. This is the dynamic. But the problem, and which is something that, obviously, the whole fandom has just gone, "Whoa, manipulation, that's what it is, it's a piece." But at the same time, you've got Vicky standing there, saying, "This is abuse, it's a serious story that also needs to be highlighted." You've got Amy Cudden, who plays Vicky. (laughs) - It's a Merry Christmas for Vicky. - Previously, she had called this storyline "Fum" in a previous interview, and then at this event, you've got her laughing about Vicky and Lisa sleeping together, and joking that on Christmas Eve, Vicky has a very Merry Christmas. That is staggering. And what a mixed message that is. Because are we laughing at abuse now? - I don't know, I don't know what to say, really. I think that that's where the sort of muddied waters come in, isn't it? And that's why there is so much divide online, because people do hang off of everything that Vicky says, which is fine. Like, you idolize that woman, and I respect that completely. - Right, and we're not actually questioning what she's saying either. We're just out of the questioning. - Oh, no, I'm supporting what she's saying, because it needed to be said. - Yeah, we're questioning why hasn't the show said it? - But also to give Amy Cudden and Credit, where Credit is due, is, you know, at the start of the story, she said, "Vicky likes to manipulate things and Vicky likes to make people laugh." Personally, I think she's been about as funny as a root canal. - Yeah, and Vicky the character. And I also think that manipulation, it's not funny, like it's not funny at all. But again, that's where that mixed blurred line is coming. And then, you know, I really say this word loosely, but there was people in the lead up to Lisa and Vicky's thing. I'm not gonna say it, but I'm not gonna say it, but I'm not gonna say it. - Yeah, I'm not gonna say it, but I'm not gonna say it. - I'm not gonna say it, but I'm not gonna say it. You've got obviously when Vicky was giving these interviews, she knew what was coming up the week after the poor thing. She might have, I mean, I do, I'm really, I cannot explain to you how I do really feel for it. It must be an awful position for her to be in. Because you know she is just as, like probably more so than us. She's more invested in this character than we are. Like she created this character from nothing. And you can just tell she's a lovely person as well. I think that makes it even worse. - I mean, I do feel for her and she knew what was coming up and she's saying these things. And then you've obviously got a whole fandom that are so desperate, they are so desperate to defend Lisa. So even before it had happened, even the thought that it may happen had people going, oh, well, it's manipulation. So that means it's sexual assault. Well, hang on, hold up, hang on. This is this and that is where it gets so, so, - Muddy, yeah. - Like, dangerous, yeah. Because let's not mislabel these things. And again, I don't think if they filmed that, I mean, Amy was joking. Do you think if they filmed those scenes and that was the message that they were trying to portray on screen when they filmed them that should be joking? I don't think that that's the case. So have somewhere, whether it's between the producers and the directors and the writers or whatever, there's mixed messaging from the very start all the way through to what we're seeing. And also, let's just also point out that the general audience that don't really care about Lisa, and it's really important that this couple and this character are portrayed in a positive light for the general audience, because that's what we want because that is positive representation. So they're not listening to everything that Vicki and Amy have to say. They're not taking these things. So if you haven't heard any outside interview and you're just watching the show, you have not heard the word manipulation. No, no, absolutely. And I think that's such an important point because someone replies to a tweet I saw maybe last night saying, like, commenting on the general audience's view. Yep. Like, I think they've seen something on Instagram or Facebook. And they said, someone who considered themselves a non-swallow fan, just someone whose general audience watches, enjoys, would never have known this was manipulation unless they'd read some of the comments that had been replying to whatever they were replying to in relation to Swala. But I think that's why multiple interpretations can coexist and why there is such a huge responsibility for things to be labeled correctly. And I think people should be allowed to feel differently. And I think it's fine to be a Lisa Swain defender and it's fine to be a Carla Cola defender. But why can't you feel for both of them? And why is their sides? And why can't things be labeled for what they are? Because that representation that got them here is what will carry them forward and make them even more authentic if it had been labeled rightly. And I think people need to remember why people join fandoms in the first place, it's because they find something in whatever that fandom is that they can relate to. And I think being empathetic doesn't mean that you lack sort of conviction. And kindness isn't weakness. And I think some people do genuinely see kindness as a weakness. It's much easier to dog pile on someone than it is to go on bloody hell. Sorry, you're struggling because of something you've seen on screen that you can relate to. And I said it the other day, I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here. But you can't scrutinize someone for saying how they feel about what they've seen on screen whilst making it the centre of your own universe by posting magazine, Clippings, videos, tweeting about it all day and then try and minimise the voice of someone who's struggling as a result of it. And also remembering, I know for a fact that some of these people don't come in at this from the same angle that I am because I'm really, I will defend the character but because of the representation. And I'm huge on that. And I know that other people are just watching the show. They like the characters, but they don't care about the representation that it brings. And that's okay. But when I'm going into defend and why I criticise is because representation matters for me and for a lot of people. And I'm not just going to sit here and take them, dragging a character that I care about that has represented so many people like myself through the mud. And that is what they have done for a shitty fucking storyline. It's not good enough. And you know what, if we let them do it without any pushback, they'll do it again. They'll do it again. And they'll get lower and lower and lower. That's all that's going to happen. And I'm really afraid now that because they've accepted whatever, that the show now knows that they can do anything and they'll be, and they'll keep watching. They won't lose an audience. And that is really dangerous. Going back just briefly to the general audience. So there are people that they're not, they're not that invested in Lisa and Carla and Swaller. And they're not consuming all of this extra stuff. They're just watching the show as a whole and they just characters eat it. So. Talk of the street, Gavin and Helen, they have a podcast, they are great, I love them. And they are a very good indicator of where the general audience is at. So this is what they had to say this week about the storyline. I feel the same way about the Becky thing. Yeah, well 100%. I would much rather watch Carl manipulate and steal from his dying sister with dementia than watch anything with Beckier Theo ever again. Yep. I just so totally not interested in either one of the stories. At least I feel something for Todd at the moment I'm feeling nothing for Becky. I'm not going to say I'm not really feeling anything for a story now. So they're talking about two queer, like two queer ships there. Yeah. Todd and Theo and Swallow. That is where they're at also. This is what they went on to say this. Stuff like Lisa having sex with Becky this week just makes me feel like Carla's better off without. So I don't really care if this is the way this relationship ends as long as it ends. And you know what? They're not wrong. That is not a we no one should be jumping on them for that opinion. Listen, no one can have a go at anyone for an opinion. I say it's a really difficult one because I don't think I don't think that I personally think people in even the swall of fandom are running out of patience with the story. It could have been told much more quickly than it has been. And personally, I think it's the reason the story has happened is for Corridale. And that's just my opinion. And I personally do not think that the character needed to go through what she's gone through in the past sort of four years to then land at this point. Like the general, like you said, the general audience are just not invested in it. They don't care about it. They have no interest in watching. I don't know what's going to happen in Corridale, but presuming she gets her come up and no one wants to see Lisa cry over Becky anymore. They want to see her move on and be happy and see Lisa light hearted scenes with Carla. For you voicing that it's like, it's like, oh my god, you're at you. Haley's a swan. You all need to get a life. You need to do this. You need to shush. Its representation means different things to different people. Yeah. Yeah. And that is fine. And I when I do engage in conversation with fans that are willing to have a, because there's so many are just not even willing to have a back and forth. They don't even want to, they don't care why. They just block block block or attack. If somebody is abusive or just get like just rude, okay, block them, that's fine. But when I ask a genuine question, if you can't, if you can't answer me, like if you, if your answer is just a fuck you block, like if you're just attacking me and blocking me and not giving me a right of reply, then you've already, you've already lost, like you're admitting that you don't have an argument really, because you know, I'm more than happy to discuss things and I will change my opinion. I am very loud and I'm not, I'm not set on my opinions. I'm loud and I am passionate about things, but I am happy to listen and, and change my opinion when new information is, is brought to my attention. Yeah. Which I've been, I've been accused of not being able to do, which is absolutely not the case. So when this, this is what we need to be, this is what needs to happen in the fandom, isn't it? Yeah, I think better fandom doesn't mean silence. I think it means scroll pass when emotions are high. I did, listen, there are accounts that I have engaged with that I think on reflection should I have, but there are things that those people say where I think, oh, actually, I can, I relate to something that you've just said I can, I can understand it. If I don't agree with it, I don't jump on them or mute them and block them. Like I haven't got time. Ultimately, I don't want to do that. But I think, yeah, ask questions though, like you said, yeah, ask the question instead of assuming intent. Yeah. And I think it's really easy to do that. It's really easy to jump on people and misinterpret the tone of what someone's saying when it's behind a keyboard or a mobile phone. But like someone said to me the other night, I'm not, I'm not having to go. And I was like, one, no, neither am I. I'm just talking to you. Like, you know, I'm talking to you and I'm, I'm telling you like what my opinion is, you explain to me what yours is and we can agree to disagree and I'll say to you, well, I don't want to go back and forth with you. So like, you know, let's just move on. And I was, you know, I'm not being horrible, being respectful. I'm saying ask the question instead of assuming. And if it's really that bad for you, log off when it stops being, when it stops being healthy. I had a graduate with somebody the other day that doesn't agree with me at all. And we really disagree on this storyline. She actually DMs me and said, so I took it out of that public arena and said, look, I've seen what you've been saying online and I've seen people jumping on, but I kind of, I want to know, I want to ask you why you think that. That's amazing. She goes, I don't want to read what you've like, what's out there. I want you to tell me why you feel this way. We went back and forth to, oh, like a couple of hours. There were some things that we absolutely agreed on and some stuff that we didn't agree on. And we ended that conversation in a place where it's like, okay, well, there's some stuff that we agree on and there's stuff that we don't agree on. And that's okay. That's fine. And that's amazing. Like, that is amazing. That's, that's, that's where, you know, fandoms should get to and should be at like, there should be no screenshot in someone to embarrass them. And I had a similar experience like the other week, one similar to yours, which was someone had piled on me because of a response to a tweet, you know, the tweet. And they messaged me and they were like, I'm really sorry that I came at you there. And I said, listen, fine, that's, that's no problem. It's fine that you, and I, I really respect and value you taking the time out of your day to say, sorry to me. You've never engaged before. So we don't, we don't need to engage again. Um, so let's just, let's just move on. But I think when people can own their shit and they can so I did wrong or like you and I have disagreed on things, something comparable to each other. Nope. Just, you're just sitting, you just have healthy debate and that's fine. I just don't understand the need to, to call people, um, a cut and, yeah. And just be absolutely disgusted. And I'm going to say one thing if it's OK is there is particular accounts who are absolutely. I actually worry for their mental health and their, their sanity. And they attack what I would describe as the hyenas. And I don't agree with that. I think listen, you're lowering yourself, but you are on a different level of anything I've ever experienced when it comes to sort of unhinged. And that's why again, the story needed to be labeled because these people have some very, very drastic views on how they describe those characters, fiction or may I ask? Yeah. Yeah. Um, can I, I'll just point out that, um, because I've been attacked quite a few times. Um, or I've seen the attack about people who are saying, oh, you can't handle, you know, you say that you want strong, um, complex, interesting characters, but then you get like, swan, you can't handle or, you know, the best characters are flawed characters. They can't be perfect. That would be boring. But, but, but in the, the same people will then go, well, hang on. She's, she's done nothing wrong. Well, hang on. She's, I thought she was flawed. She was a complex, flawed, interesting character. Yeah. When, when, when you were trying to defend her one way, but now she's done absolutely nothing wrong, she's a fucking angel, everything that she has done is because of manipulation. She's a victim, nothing else. Oh, hang on. Oh, hang on. No. She can be a victim of manipulation. Doesn't mean that she hasn't caused harm to Carla. Two things can be true. Yeah. And there is no doubt that the way Lisa has handled this situation and we know why I still think that that part has been really badly written. It hasn't been clear enough for what I think they're trying to tell too much and it's not clear and they should have done a better job of establishing that relationship at the very beginning. I mean, we've had four months of this shit. They've had plenty of time. They didn't have to go to a love triangle straight away. They should have established why Lisa cares about fucking Becky because then we would have been, we would have more sympathy for Lisa had they done that properly. But they didn't. And I'm sorry, it is not the job like if you have to yet actresses explaining what's happening in interviews, you haven't done your job as a storyteller flat out, you failed. Simple. Yeah, 100%. And it is that point that you've just made as well is when people like, well, you know, if you can't handle her at a worse, you don't deserve deserve her best when they talk about Lisa. They bring up Carlos past and they're like, well, you know, Carlos not been a saint, but she has in this relationship. Yeah, so you're your invalidating your own argument there, in my opinion. And also, it's like, so what growth means nothing to you as a character? Yeah, and then, then, you know, people do talk about her growth in, in just been on the show, what, 20 years? Almost 20 years, yep. And people, again, people just jump on it, and no one's like, I don't agree with Karla working with Kate in the story, like I just think. It's fucking awesome. Yeah, that's not good. I've been very vocal about it, but people don't see those things because they're so, so sort of invested. I don't know if it's because they think that Bikki's going to see their tweet, because she is quite a present person and online. She's got a heavily, yeah, she's heavily present online. She says all of that. Yeah, so maybe that's, they're going to upset her. Yeah, which is fine, but also, you know, it's fine to critique a character, and I would hope that Bikki would see that without knowing her personally, I think it's fine to go. All this has not been an angel. Karla's not been an angel, but that divide is causing a huge long slot of attacks online, which is, which is not right, in my opinion. Absolutely. And yeah, we're forgetting that Kate is an absolute, he has been a misogynistic piece of shit. He has been so fucking rude to Lisa, he has been so condescending, he has undermined her at every turn, wants her job. So for him to come in and be the savior of this storyline is absolutely fucking disgusting. And we know that. It's foul. It's foul. But you know what, not the worst thing, not the worst thing that's happened in the story, because all of a sudden she's fucking Bikki, and I don't give a fuck if kids come in and say, that's where we're at. That is woe, it's fucking low. I love the way you describe things. It's so different to me. You're like, fucking Kate. Love it. It's brilliant. It's dead funny as well. I said to you, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Like, you're fucking what? You're like, you what? Have you heard it? I don't know, yeah, but I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if you're allowed. If that's like something you could, you, uh, you, you allow. If you don't swear, I'll be offended. All right, so we have, yeah, look, we, we could talk a day about all of these topics, because it's, I mean, it's not, it's not black and white, but we're not here to just complied and not give solutions to these problems that we are experiencing every day. So what do we, what do we want to get? What do we want to achieve from today? What do we, what do we want? Mmm, that's a good question. I think if I think about what I said at the start and how I got here, you know, as a job, when I first started watching, uh, Swala, my job was to travel across the UK and I'd stay away like three, four nights a week and it's the coronation street as an institution in the UK and probably around the world. You know, people have known it for 65 years, like my grandma watched it, my mum watches it, I watch it with my wife, but when I think about Swala specifically in this fandom, I wanted to talk to, you know, getting involved in the conversation and the positive representation that they were and I do think over time they still can be if it's done right, but I think we all have a responsibility to not stay silent and speak out on things that aren't right. Yep. And I hope, you know, I teach my family, you know, I said it before, I want to make sure that that's something I teach my family and what I've been taught and I think, I think it's, you know, this, it's gone past being about a ship or a storyline. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. In my opinion. And I think what we've seen as a result of the story that they, whatever the story is that they've tried to tell is that it's really important to call out that bullying because it's not about drama, it's about protecting people and their mental health. Like we, one in three people, I don't know if this starts to save in Australia, but one in three people in the UK suffer with their mental health. So if you think about how many people tweet and talk about what they're seeing, just in relation to Swala and the responses that we've seen as a result of what happened, you know, we could go, is it is important? And they played, you know, those people played right into the hands of what that account was trying to point out. And I've spoken to that account, by the way, and said I didn't agree that anyone was endorsing anything, like in a malicious way or because, because, you know, that person wouldn't see that. But I do agree with what the account was trying to put across, which was, by engaging indirectly with people or directly with them, you're feeding into the narrative that we see on that timeline, and it's unhealthy and it's gone way past it, which is why I will call out, personally. And that's a, that's a thing. You know, these people, they, we say it because when you're in it, you see it a lot more than other people that might come in and out. And I think we all know I mean, I would like to think that we all, because I'm not one to, I think people can have bad opinions. They can have, I mean, people are allowed to have shitty opinions. I'm like, okay, yeah, that's your opinion. You're wrong in my opinion, but you're allowed to have that as long as you're not, you know, and I don't think that we should be attacking those people. We can have healthy debate. I think we need to learn as a fandom when, when it's not okay, when is the time to, okay, now we all need to step in and go, no, we're not accepting this. But that's not every day. That is not an everyday occurrence. It's a very rare thing. I think it should be reserved for people that are just really out of line and causing, you know, that are just, I mean, we hardly see it, but we shouldn't just be piling on every opinion every day. It feels like it's a, a hobby for people to jump on. It's like, oh, what are we going to jump on today? And then, what, what, who can I upset, or who can I make look a fool for my own entertainment? I think that's the, that's the, I, I think I've said it to you quite a few times. I will never, ever, ever lower myself to those standards. So you'll never, ever see me jump on someone or be nasty to them intently. And I don't think people always set out to do those things. And sometimes it can just be how it's perceived because it's written down. But then there's other people that just go out of their way to just be horrible. And I'm like, how, you're, you're here for the same reason that that person is here. And if you don't agree with it, why is leave it? Move on. Like, do I use it? You don't have to agree with you can think someone's opinion is crap and scroll on. But also, I'll tell everyone if you don't agree with my opinion and you would honor, and this is what I've asked people before. If you've asked a question of me, do you honestly want, are we going to have a debate? Because I'll answer you and I'll answer you. I'll give you a good, long proper answer. But don't just ask to set me up for you to screenshot my answer and try and humiliate me because I don't, I don't give a fuck. Because the people that actually know me and engage with me all the time, they know what I'm about. And I will rest on my reputation any day of the fucking week. I mean, it's not a great reputation, but it's better than theirs. You know, like, I mean, I am opinionated and I am passionate. You can say angry, I say passionate, but at the same time, if I see something that I don't like or I think is wrong, I will go out of my way to stick up the people that probably don't feel like they can stick up for themselves. And whether I like them or not, whether I agree with them or not, I just, I don't like people bullying other people. And I think if anyone wants to engage in a conversation with me, I am open to that. If you want to actually ask me, well, why are you being so awful? I'll answer you. Don't be afraid of what I'm not going to attack you. If you honestly want the end, if you want to know, I have all the time in the world for those people. What I don't have time for is people screenshotting a like one little tweet and saying, oh, she's a Lisa Swain Haydart. Is she added again? She like some of the awful things that these pathetic people have called me. It's like you don't know me. That's my, that's my fucking name. That's my fucking name. That's my fucking picture. And that's my fucking tweet. And I'll fucking stand by it. You are hiding behind a picture of a character. And that is a made up name. And you will change your account as quickly as you have to as soon as people find out what you really are. And that's pathetic. So don't come at me. I also think what would, what would the actresses or the actors think of these people using their faces to attack people? Well, I would be happy, but you know me though. And look, we're not here to condemn people. We are actually, we are here because we want things to be better. We want things to be better for the world that we're immersed in every day. I want, I want to be able to walk away and have people that right now today don't feel like they can stand up to people that are bullying others. I wanna be able to walk away and know that they now have the, you know, there's enough of those people that will stand up and say, "Hang on, no, no, no, no, no." We're not gonna put up with this. That's what I want. I just want people to be empowered to say, "No, we're not putting up with this shit. You're not gonna bully me." - Think people are starting to, a little. And I really do hope that if you see somebody that is standing up for themselves or someone else and you know that they are doing the right thing that you come to their defense instead of to come to pile on. That's all I ask. - I 100% echo that. Will it get there? I don't know. Would I be part of another fandom? No. (laughing) - I don't know how I got in a company. - I'm really. - I'm really expectable. - Well, do I, like I said, it's like the Lion King. - Yep. - I was here, it was fun and exciting. And then you go to bloody that elephant graveyard and you ain't getting out alive. - Yeah, when I was fine, it was so much fun. Everyone was enjoying it. And most of this, I blame the show. This didn't need to be it. We didn't need to, we did not need to lower the quality of the storytelling to this level. We didn't need to be doing, getting the characters to do these things. You've deleted it. - We'll lower it and explain what it is. So there isn't as much of a divide. - Yeah. And I haven't. And that's the thing. Why not? Again, Kate Brooks, if you would like to come on to this podcast and answer those questions, I will engage with you. I will give you a ride of a pie. And this is a, I'm never gonna, and you know what to be fair? The people, two of the people that we have been, two of my biggest critics maybe, I've invited both of them onto the podcast to talk, by the way. Neither of them said no. I'm not just gonna sit here and slate people and then not give them a writer for a pie. If you feel victimized, give me a message. If you wanna come on the show and have a little discussion, I'm more than happy. I will give it anyone the opportunity to have this say. - Well, yeah, you've had a lot of like you have today. - Thank you very much. Yeah, no, I've actually really enjoyed it. And I hope that my hope is the perception of those accounts can change. You know, I am very much a person who believes in seeing the good in them in everyone who sometimes I don't agree with. And I would like to think that people can change when people can apologize. And I also try and hold space for those people because I think what are you going through personally and internally to be acting in that kind of way? So, yeah, I mean, it would be interesting to have people on with different opinions and actually debate it in real time and not call people names. But I think that would be very interesting. If you can get accounts on that, I think, don't articulate themselves in the best way, I think that would be really good because I think if you have them not behind a keyboard, they may articulate themselves differently. And actually, what they're trying to achieve, and that's, that again, comes back to why I hold space for them because I think sometimes it can be misinterpreted, but you can't misinterpret embarrassing and be littling. - Yeah. - But you can hold space for what? - Yeah. - You can hold space for the other bits and go, "Okay, well, what's that person going through personally for them to act in that way?" So I just, I just, yeah, I mean, we could talk about it forever, but. - You could, it's been fun. - It's been fun. - It has been fun. Honestly, I, your, your wife should be incredibly proud of you because what you achieved in the last couple of weeks has been, has been quite extraordinary. I mean, it's only a tiny little, you know, corner of Twitter, but we've already seen a difference and, and so I think it shows that it only takes one person to stand up, to do the right thing for others to have the courage to sort of start doing the same. So if we all stand up and go hang on, no. And then come to the defensive people that are being attacked unjustly. That's all we can do. That's what we should be doing. And once we start doing that, we start winning and the bully start losing. So let's do that. So let's do that and let's go back to why we're here. - Yeah, have fun. - We're looking up Swala. - So K, you've come on. Start, start giving them some fucking happier, all right? Stop, stop making them, just stop putting through the shit. Stop making them do all the- - We want to see them pain ten. I want to see them decorate it. I don't like just domestic things. We want dressing, oh we're hanging, we're gonna burn all the dressing gowns, but get new dressing gowns. We want- - Well, it's a- - KG, we want just let them go on some dates. Just let them be happy for a little bit because what you've done is awful. And we just need a little bit of happy, okay? Okay, okay, okay. - Maybe they get a little bit of no- - Sprinkled, sprinkled, or dry. - Sprinkled, maybe give them a puppy, but you'd probably kill the puppy because that's what you do. So maybe you don't give them a puppy. But yeah, they have the potential to so swell, they have the potential to bring so much fucking joy to the world. - Let them do it, please. - 2020-26 wedding, the 2020-26 kid knuffin. - Oh, fuck, how many times will we call a conno-get kid knuff in 2026? Can we make it four times? Can we? - Let's do a sweepstake. - I reckon five, I reckon they should get five. - Good. - I think they've probably- they've had to give Ali extra holidays next year to put up with this schedule on this year. So maybe six kid knuffings in 2026? - And a part, Trigian, a part tree. - But I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and chatting to me to say it's been so much fun. And thank you for everything that you've done online to make it a little bit more. - Oh, thank you. - I'll do nothing, but you can try, right? But thank you for having me on a really, really appreciate it. - No worries, thank you so much. - And thank you. - And thank you. - Good luck to us all next week. - Oh, and the week after that. - And the week after that. Oh god. - Finally. - You go now. I decided when she goes home. - Is this gonna take long? - He'll take as long as it takes. - You need to let it go. - Wait there. Let me find the key. - You free to go. - Why? - 'Cause I'm a supervisor and I say so. [BLANK_AUDIO]