Surviving Ironwood: Katherine’s Story (2012)

Welcome back to the Code Adam podcast. My name is Julia and today's interview is with Katherine Bentley. Katherine attended several programs between January 2011 to May 2012. Thank you Katherine for being our guest today. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us what your first experience with the trouble team in a district look like? Hi, yeah, this is Katherine Bentley. I want to five different programs for which we're from a parent company called Aspen who runs a lot of these therapeutic boarding schools and these outdoor wilderness programs. So I want to two of their boarding schools and two of their wilderness programs. Basically my first experience was with transport. There is nothing that will come and ruin your life. Like waking up to two strangers. I had just turned 16 like a day or two ago and I'm opening my eyes to these two figures kneeling in front of my bed and just completely freaking out like why are these people in my room and before you even propped yourself up your mind has gone to a thousand places and then you see your parents standing in the corner and you're like what's going on and basically you know these people say you're coming with me you're looking at mom and mom says no you're going with them and so they don't let you touch your stuff. They don't let you say goodbye or hug your parents pet your dog none of that you know they just say put on some simple clothes where you're going you know you're not going to need them you're not going to have anything so just bring what you need for the drive and my intake adorandic leadership expeditions was my my first program which is a wilderness program mind you this is January on like record breaking cold and they basically I remember being in the hygiene like shower area and just being stripped down by whatever staff was on that day and I'm stepping up everything and some little plastic baggies down to like I had a braided bracelet from my brother that like he tied on to my wrist and they cut it off yeah so basically oh and then of course when you get to your group you're not allowed to interact with the group basically all of these places use isolation that's a breaking technique in the beginning you get there you're totally shell shocked totally just like where I'm on what's going on where's my mom and dad and they don't even let you talk to the other girls in the group here you only address staff for absolute needs and I was just completely terrified on you know isolation reflection and take whatever name they give so what was your experience like with every program was that the same thing or how did that um the transitions from your first program to ironwood how did that transpire so I had a really traumatic experience start to finish basically I got immensely ill at my first program I had gold stones couldn't stop vomiting I mean couldn't stop you know I was having diarrhea and like vomiting and they didn't believe I was sick didn't believe I was sick because I came in with an eating disorder and like nobody believes me I was like how would I make myself projectile vomit on purpose and they're like oh we've seen it before we've seen it before so I kept getting more more sick until basically five weeks later I ended up needing emergency surgery to have my gold ladder removed and in all of this they were supposed to be checking our hands and feet to make sure our circulation was up and me especially because the staff knew I'd been struggling with keeping my circulation up and I had low blood pressure and so basically because of staff neglect they didn't do my toe checks in the morning because I couldn't stop vomiting and they were totally distracted and overwhelmed and I got frostbite on three toes lost about a millimeter off the tip of one and had my gold ladder removed without my mom there because it was in the middle of an ice storm from there my mom did eventually make it up and I begged and begged to go home because I had this window to talk to her because as you know you can't talk to anyone without staff but you know intercepting and she had been they got to her they told her like what I was gonna say you know don't listen to her she's a liar you know and I got brought to a therapeutic boarding school that almost immediately after I got there I was told that it was shutting down so they accepted an intake and then a month in they shut the school down and I had to get transferred again so again my parents brought me to from Bromley Brook in Vermont which shut down to Academy at Swiftwick River in Massachusetts and I was having a lot of troubles there it was probably I don't know say normal but at this point I was totally shaken and the students there were the problem I think you put so many troubled kids who have gone through so much trauma and these were kids who had most of them had been through wilderness and the bullying was running rampant in the dorms because basically the dormitories were unstaffed other than one person who sat in the obvi area and I mean I had girls like coming and threatening to beat me up while I was in the shower and there was a boy who got water-boarded in the dorms by some other guys and I ran away so that's kind of my code add-on story I guess we can save that for the end but I ran away and ended up at Suisse of the Carolinas another wilderness program all the same bowl shape holes basically but luckily those people those people took the rules and didn't use them to enforce unnecessary punishment they actually I feel that program helped me and so to go from that high that I was riding from Suisse of the Carolinas and feeling myself and feeling centered from nature to ironwood was a total like culture shock wait so you say that that program was helping you and then what happened that got you from that program to ironwood so because I had run away my parents felt that it would be rewarding me to bring me home after doing well at the Suisse of the Carolinas because it was shorter than my stint at Academy at Swift River was so they just didn't believe that I should come home yet for whatever reason and I think that's where the trouble comes in when you know families are using these places kind of to hide a kid who might be having problems and you know they go on deal with it and in my case my dad was abusive and my mom just couldn't put up with me and him going head to head because I wasn't going to play his games um so basically I got shipped to ironwood when I was doing well for no reason and I was compliant when I arrived at ironwood and I didn't say this much um I don't want to go into too much because I know we have a lot questions about us but ironwood when they were doing their intake from the start because I know I was going in there to do the program and listen to what they said they were looking for problems with everyone and it was almost like they were more mad if they couldn't be mad at you for something mm-hmm yeah you're you're definitely like the the minute you step in those doors it's what what be you done wrong let's find out yes yes absolutely because they're like troubled teen and I think it was either Jason or Wyatt someone was like oh they just like everyone's a drug addict they treat you like a delinquent from the time you get there and I know people who were there because of anxiety because bullying because of just really boilerplate teenage stuff and what we went through is not how to handle that yeah leading into the first question I have for you which is uh what was your relationship with the staff at your program like I would say definitely really the closest thing is that of a CEO and a prisoner these people are the ones who dictate what you eat when you eat when you sleep every single thing and so it's almost like the meaner they are to you the harder you're trying to be on their good side yeah and I think a lot of people up to put themselves in really abusive and toxic situations coming out of treatment where they're like always trying hardest for the person who's giving them the most guff basically I talked to a lot of the girls who went to Ironwood and a lot of us are having that kind of simultaneous experience struggling with toxic relationships prior to treatment that is an interesting point I definitely think I've struggled with that myself or wanting the approval of someone who is just mean to me or uh yeah I just want I feel like I if I'm nice enough to them that they'll eventually like come around and it's going to be fine but I don't ever like acknowledge that their behavior might be like on them and not appropriate like I put that on me and myself instead and I feel like that's something I still struggle with today. Oh big time I'm always like because the whole thing and I think this can be empowering saying like the only thing you're in control of is yourself but I'm actually not in control of other people and I can I can adjust my behavior over and over again but eventually you're going to find out that some sometimes it's not you, and that's not something they tell you when you're away. And I think that leads me into another thing, because when the staff are easy to get along with, and when the staff are treating you, like you're not a prisoner, you're not this horrible bad kid, and they made it easier for us to get through the program, follow the rules, get through the day-to-day, things that we had to go through. And so that's my next question for you. At what point in the program, did you decide to comply with the rules to move forward? I think, basically, when I first got sent away, and I was at Aduronic Leadership Expeditions, ALE, as they called it, I wanted to comply as fast as I could, because I was told that's how you get out of the program. And then I started to get sick, and I mean, my motivation, my ability, I was at threshold, and I just couldn't keep up with the group, and I think when I'm the toxic things they were doing was like group punishments. So if I didn't do something, they'd punish everyone in the group, and then everyone was kind of turning on me, and it was like, I'm really, really, really sit here, like the doctor said, so I can't get through this activity without vomiting or something, and it was really difficult, that whole experience was really traumatic for me. But by the time I got to Ironwood, I was kind of back riding that high, figuring it out, and I thought I had it. So coming into a place, feeling like I know what to expect, and I'm going to do a good job from the start, I'm just going to take the rules and do it, and learning that the rules are kind of flexible day-to-day person to person, that was kind of jarring to my sense of safety, to know that these people didn't really give a fuck about anything other than like showing me who was boss so much of the time, and like you said, there's those select few who come through, and they make a difference, and they do care. But those are the people who usually don't stick, because it's such a toxic work environment for them, like looking back as an adult, I can't imagine coming into work and being the one person carrying that burden of caring, because so many people didn't. So there was that sense of like this person's my caretaker, and like I'm totally dependent on them, and I want to like you, because I spend so much time with you, versus the all right, you're not letting me shake my orange juice more than twice, because we like it frothy, or like you're making me do push-ups, because I already was struggling with a workout. And then the counting as well, like we were talking about that on the last episode, a little bit, like what counting after you eat, and like just how filled up you would constantly be, and like you know you can't go to the bathroom whenever you want, like somebody else is either in the bathroom, and you're waiting for the bathroom, or they're trying to count, it's just, it's all like super frustrating, your stomach's just constantly and nots from the stress, and then from like the force feeding. It's terrible, and speaking to the counting thing, I just, I have to tell the story, because this is so textbook treatment style abuse. The counting thing for those who don't know after you eat, you have to go to the bathroom and count, and like you have a number, or you count one, two, three, when I was at LE, you were assigned a number, and so I actually in the middle of the night had to like run out the door, they thought I was gonna run, and I just like leaned over the rail, it was projectile vomiting, and I was so sick, I was so vomiting, I ended up like defecating myself, and I basically just turned around, looked at the staff, gestured at my pants, and I was like, hey, this happened, and so they sent me, it must have been like negative 10 to this freezing pitch black outhouse, and made me clean myself with wet wipes, and they had, and I'd still remember hearing a voice say to me, how, how I'm like crying and the freezing dark covered in shit, like oh my god, Jesus Christ, they didn't give me a shower until like midday, the next day, and oh my god, and so I mean that just set the tone for my entire experience away, just knowing how little control I actually had over my situation, god that's messed up, I'm sorry that happened to you, there was no stability, not, and it just weirds me out that so many kids are sent there because they have strained relationships with their families, but they're isolated from their family at the same time, so that's weird to me. That is very weird, yeah, I feel like one of the things the program did help me do is like try to keep a relationship with my parents, but I definitely have this weird trust relationship with almost everyone because of it. Oh yeah, and it's not even there fault at this point, like it's just, that's just how it is, and I feel like a lot of us feel that way, but we don't want to hurt our parents feelings either because it's not like they knew fully what the program was going to have long, you know, long-term effects on us, but I think that, you know, does lead me into the next question I do have for you is, you know, what do you think you would be like, or where do you think you would be if you were never sent away to these programs? Well, I mean, I don't want to step in like, crush anyone's toes who've saved their life or anything, but for me, it felt like it totally derailed mine. You know, I imagine, I didn't, this was like my senior year of high school, my entire 16th year and part of my 17th year was away from home, and I didn't get to like, go visit colleges, I didn't get to walk with everyone I went to school with, I didn't go to prom, you know, I had to totally have normal experience, and for, I mean, up until just a few years ago, even, this has affected me, you know, if people ask where did I go to school, like, where do you, like, it's just really hard to explain without getting this like, side-eyed, like, what do you mean, or like, so I'm constantly coming up with these new ways to describe it. And frankly, I mean, I hope that I would have been more normal in relationships without this place or these places, because coming out, I've struggled, like I said, through very bad, abusive, toxic, co-dependent relationships, and I feel like a lot of that co-dependency was ingrained in these programs where everything depended on the staff. I think that for me, I would have at least had a more normal experience, which I would like to believe would have led to a healthier, mental outlook than where I am at this point. And where do you think you are, like, mentally at this point? Do you think that, like, you have a lot of, like, times where you're thinking about your time at these programs, and we're like, do you feel like you've been able to move past a little bit, or do you think it's going to be something that, you know, you think about for the rest of your life, and do you spend the rest of your life trying to heal from your experiences there? You know, it's kind of, for a long time, I totally ignored it when I first got back, because I was like, I'm free, I'm not thinking about it. And then it started to catch up to me, and I would start to think about it more and more. And the fact is, I have so many repressed memories, or things that I was told, like, you know, I don't know if some of the things that I experienced were real or not, because I had no one to talk to. And so, like, I had this dream that I was taking advantage of by staff, or so when I went to my therapist, she told me it was a dream, but like, it's haunted me for a decade. And when I saw that, when this movement started, and people started to come out telling their stories, and more of my friends from mine would tell me what happened to them as staff, it started to become, you know, a lot more questionable to me. And I'm sorry, totally lost track of your question. That's okay. Yeah, you were just explaining, you know, the lasting effects of what these programs, you know, have done and staff. And see, like, that kind of thing. I'll dip into a past trauma. And then all of a sudden, I'd say, I don't know what's going on. It's definitely a theme for me. And I've had a lot of compounding trauma since getting out. And that kind of relates to that thing of, like, these abuse relationships I might not have accepted if I hadn't been told, like, you have no choice, you're bad, change what you are to fix other people. So that's definitely, like, one of my biggest things. And I do think that knowledge is power. And I was given therapy to give the skills, you know, I had DBT therapy, I tons of group therapy. So it's not that there wasn't skills. It's just that maybe what we were contending with was more than what the skillset given to us was. I'm hoping I don't have to deal with it forever. And that's part of doing this podcast and wanting to be part of this, you know, breaking code silence movement, just getting it out of me, you know. Yeah, it's important. I feel like that having a voice and being able to talk about it now just gives me a lot of relief. Because I feel like I have done a lot of the suppressing as well. There are memories that you, you know, I think about sometimes like that, dang, did that really happen? Did that really play out the way I remember it playing out, you know, or am I a bad kid? Am I a bad person that would just, you know, because the program really did try to paint you like you're a bad kid who needs to conform to what we're trying to teach you and the skills we're setting or you're always going to be bad and you're always going to be a failure. Yes, I mean, I still go through that every day if I'm not seeing results or getting validation, I'm like, what am I doing wrong? I need to step it up, I need to, it sounds positive, but when it becomes such a mental focus that you're anxiety and social interaction, like if you can't interact, if you can't function because of the pressure you're putting on yourself, it's too far. I mean, my social anxiety is terrible. I mean, I was borderline and gore afloat when I was like 23, 24 and like given I was in a bad relationship too, but I was terrified to interact with people outside of myself and I'm stepping out of that box, but it doesn't mean that I still don't have these like flutters of like, where's my validation and like, or what am I doing wrong? Like, they're breathing different, they stopped like, what did I do wrong? Tell me. And I think that there's just such a hyper focus on therapy to almost a fault, you know? Other people weren't getting therapy every week an hour of the day and constantly focused on improvement. Yeah, our whole day was focused on how can you improve yourself because you're not good enough at this point, so you have to improve. Yeah, you have to be better because you're not good enough. I think I wrote one of my journals, something to the fact of like, I'm not doing good enough, right? Like, but I never am. Yeah, I feel like I remember a few journal entries at the end of the night, I would be like, well, you know, today I tried to be happier, and I think I did it a little bit better than yesterday. And it breaks my heart because that's such a relatable journal and I just did my best to be good today. I don't know if it showed, I can't wait for my review, like, what am I talking about? Like, if a dog could write like an entry and they were like, you know, taken by some bad owners, they would be like, you know, today I found out that they like it when I smile. So tomorrow, I will try a little harder to smile. Maybe I will get a treat. I dated this guy once and when he smiled, I feel like, why are you smiling? And he'd be like, I'm smiling. I don't need a reason. And I'd be like, but I want to know so I can make you do it more. She had the validation I would need from like, everyone when I was sent out of ironwood. And, you know, another thing I kind of found that I still feel like has like left me from ironwood was, God, where was it going? Sorry, my brain comes in and out as well. But yeah, it's hard when you're talking about this because you like slip into the past a little bit. It's weird. Yeah, I really, oh, yeah. So sometimes I'll, you know, especially when I got right out of ironwood because I was younger when I was in there. I was like 14, turned 15 there, but I got to start. I was, I was lucky, though, because I did get to start high school fresh. And I did get to go to prom. And I got to do all that. But when I first got there, I felt so different from everyone else. Like nobody could understand me. Like nobody, like nobody was on my level because I just experienced this whole crazy nine months of no phone. Everyone was in their phone. I was like, look at me. I can do the sports. I can do this. I can do that because ironwood taught me how to do it. Ironwood made me this like crazy person. And I was so like on this like high almost. And as soon as it crashed and burned, and I was like, no, I'm like everyone else struggling the same way everyone else is. It was, it was weird. It was a weird, weird realization. And I definitely got really depressed from it. Like very, very depressed from like that realization. Like, okay. Nobody gives a shit about your trauma. Nobody wants to hear about your trauma. You got to get through school the same way everybody else is getting through school. And you got to suppress all that fucking shit. And don't talk about it. Because it's not the type of thing you can put on a college application. Like it's positive. You can't feel like I went through all this crazy stuff. Because all you're synduly is divulging like, hey, I'm a bad kid. Yeah. In my face, that's the way. Yeah. I guess for you, especially when you're fresh out, you're like, no, no, no, I'm a good kid now. I'm a form. Yeah. I really did feel that way. Oh my god. All right. So I mean, I guess the last question. Well, if you have any code atom stories, did they have it? Was it called a code atom in your other programs as well? Or did they have a different term for it? Yeah. I think that that was a pretty universal trend because like code atoms are real thing, you know. And so my code atom, I did run. It was when I was at Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts. I had had a really bad phone call call. And we had time limits on our phone calls like everywhere else. It was a 10-minute call. I was super upset. I just wanted to keep the conversation going, you know, I told someone I was like, I'm so upset is my therapist here. Of course she was. It was in the evening. And like I had no one to talk to. So I just said, seething. We were having like rep time or whatever we had there in this big thing called the grape room, which was all these couches. And unlike Iron Wood, we had a TV and, you know, a pool table and there was actually some semblance of normalcy. But I was so upset and I was just seething for like 45 minutes. I find to go back to the dorm and I'm standing on a porch just talking about how upset I am with, you know, group of girls. And me and this one girl looked each other in the eye and we were like, I was just like, I'm going to run. Like I'm just going to fucking do it. And she was like, really? I was like, yeah. And like we just, I started running. She started running and we were running. Like we just rented. I don't know what the other girls on the porch thought. We ran to the woods. It was nighttime already. We ran into the woods. We see like this group of staff. They have flashlights. They got dogs. They got the whole thing. And we're just hunkered down in the bushes. And they're basically saying like, all right, you girls, you want to stay out there and freeze tonight? Fine. Like we're not going to hunt for you all night. Have fun. And I don't know at what point I fell asleep, but I woke up in a bush because the staff just left me in the woods and ran sun up. And that's when we were like, whoa, they're not looking for us anymore. So we started booking through the woods, eventually got out to the main road. We were fucking hitchhiking. Some random dude picked us up. He gave us a pack of cigarettes, dropped us in the center of the nearest town. And we spent a day trying to figure it out. We looked horrible. We slept in the woods overnight. We went to a visitor center and like sponge bathed ourselves in this thing. And we were trying to like find a phone or like anyway to get in touch with someone to come get us. And I went through and I feel like Jason had a pen where it's like you're just riding this high of freedom. Nobody owns your day. So it doesn't really matter what you're doing because it's your choice for once. And eventually, like we just floated around all day. And so we walked to the train station where the police picked us up almost 24 hours later. Damn. The police found you guys. What's that? Yeah. And thank God like the police were really really nice. My friend was hypoglycemia. So we were like freaking out because we didn't have money and she was super hungry. So we were like scrounging for change to get her a soda. And the police actually brought us like burger king. I remember they brought us each one chicken sandwich and one burger. And I was just like oh my god fast food. You know you know what outside food is like. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can't imagine. Like just hearing like you making it like hitchhiking and getting somewhere that must have felt like so mind blowing. I thought I made it. I thought I made it. But I had no money. I had nothing. I didn't even know where I was. So I couldn't find a way to make contact with someone. And we looked like freaking crackheads. We filled out all night. So no one would help us. And so basically once the police got us, you know everyone in the area knows like academies with river. They called them up. They came and got us and they were furious with us. I mean they made me sleep on the floor. And they're like intake lodge thing on the floor with the lights on all night before transport could come and get me and bring me to suit with the Carolinas. And the other girl went to Adirondick leadership expeditions because they refused to send us to the same place. Wow. Wow just wow that. Right. And I mean something I look back on it's like if that's what I was willing to do to get away, how bad was it? Like how even when I was 16 I think that it was probably pretty bad if I was willing to sleep in a friccer blood. I mean, I actually still have a scar on my hand from this prayer prayer book today. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of why I named the podcast code Adam because it's like, I have had a lot of residents reach out to me, you know, saying that they want to speak on the podcast, but at the end of the day, they feel as if Ironwood saved their life. And I actually had a resident reach out to me, kind of upset saying, you know, why am I reaching out to parents, getting people to say bad things, comparing it to Paris Hilton's CD, not once if I ever done that, by the way, or reached out to anyone. But I just think it's funny because it's like, we had at least a code Adam once a week. I'd be surprised if we didn't have a code Adam once a week. And it's like, yeah, we are trying to get away from these programs that we literally cannot run away from being dictated by. So just like, yeah, I named the podcast code Adam because it's like, again, like what you just said, if it was, if it was that bad for us to run, like, what was really going on? Like how abuse was it that you're having kids, like run for their lives, hitchhike, like, you know, getting chased by police dogs and starving, you know, pissing in the woods, you know, because they want to get away from these staff in this program and the abuse that's going on behind these closed doors when you're not allowed to call your mom for more than 10 minutes and it's being monitored. So interesting stuff, interesting stuff, for sure. Because it definitely speaks to something and like, I don't know, like, I have been totally sorted through everything I've gone through, maybe I actually never will, but all I know is that there is a dark cloud that surrounded me for the decade following, but a huge takeaway for me that's been positive is, you know, you guys, the community I've left with and I just feel like this podcast is a bit of a love note for everyone from Ironwood right now because like, I love hearing your stories because I knew your faces, I knew who you were in the orange, blue shirt, whatever it was, but I didn't get to hear everyone's personal experience. So this is great, you know. Yeah, I mean, I hope that this, you know, just gives everyone an outlet to have a voice and maybe it can help us heal a little bit to hear it, just to hear, you know, what everyone's experience was because yeah, I mean, I got to see your face. I was in the program with the same staff the same time, but I didn't know who you were at all. I had no idea what you were going through daily. So it is interesting to hear, you know, what your experience was even before leading up to Ironwood, like, I mean, I've heard at least several girls, you know, from that my program who were sent to somewhere, you know, way worse before they got sent to Ironwood. And you know, they like very similar to something that you said earlier was that the, it was a lot of the times the residents who were in these programs that were worse or abusive because they're like, you know, bullying or doing something horrible in front of you because the mental health problems these, these kids have, and you're not necessarily like, you know, on that level of, do I need to, you know, the same help that this person's getting when, you know, my, my mental health is here and clearly there's a huge difference going on. It is weird to know that there's kids coming from program to program to program and they are all just as difference between everyone and it's not this individual experience that you're having. You're just being forced to follow these rules and do it with these peers and you have nothing. You have no idea what they've been through, no idea why they're acting the way that they've acted. So you just go off with like, you know, is this person level one or is this person level four? And, you know, that's all I have to judge you on really at that point in those programs. And it ends up being, at least while you're there, a really valid approach because I've talked to some other people who basically are like, yeah, if you are at the farmhouse, that might be more broken. Yeah, I remember when you guys came, I was level one, maybe like a couple of weeks off of reflection. Oh, you probably hated it. I hated you guys. You guys came down with Ronan and your little green shirts, your green and blue shirts and I was in the lodge, like reading mail, giving you guys like evil eyes, like ew. I can't believe it was Miley. I was like, what are these freaking kiss asses? Yeah. Seriously. I really felt so mad. I was like ew, like go back up wherever you came from, stop like kissing ass and smiling around me. I felt when I was orange and purple. Oh, yeah. I just felt like how, how did they get you guys there? Like what? I mean, it really is just like, I felt like a dog. I was totally trained and I think that a really big thing for the people who are saying like this is a negative podcast or we're coming from a negative place. This is such a vibrant experience and so intense because of the way it happened to so many people and I think that a big thing to focus on here is that we're not saying like I want blood, I want these programs shut down. I really just want these programs to be what they say they are. I want them to be something that can help people with anxiety, help people are being holy, help people who are having an eating disorder, self-esteem crisis, connect with their families and connect with themselves. I just don't think that abuse, isolation, starvation, force feeding, you know, these things can be taken out of the equation when we're talking about people who are already struggling. Yeah. I 100% agree. I think that that is something that hopefully our voice can bring into action and we can manifest this stuff by saying don't use all these punishments, screen your staff, make sure they have proper credentials when they're working with kids who have mental health issues and don't shame and force everyone to suppress everything all the time because that's not helpful and it's going to cause a lot of long-term issues for a lot of people doing that is not helpful. So if we can get to a point where these programs at least hear from everyone, hear the problems that it's caused, you know, there's going to be a lot of kids who can go to these programs, get the help they need. It's not going to have this everlasting like weird PTSD effects that are going to like continue on for the rest of our lives or however long we feel the stock homes syndrome of these programs, you know. I just, this whole thing, I'm sorry, this has just been such an experience talking to you and I know we're coming to a close here but it's been a pleasure and like, I don't know, I'm just so happy that you're doing this and that everyone is, or at least a lot of people are participating and able to have a voice because we didn't, you know. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for using your voice and, you know, being a part of Breaking code silence. I appreciate you so much for being on today. Thank you so much.