Surprising Signs of ADHD in Women with Dr. Amelia Kelley

I'm not gatekeeping, I'm sharing a with you. This is the woman who diagnosed me with ADHD. If you don't mind me sharing, please. There was something interesting that is very common that happened after your diagnosis. Knowing this about my brain has changed my life. Since she came out, it's been a different kind of person. And then Penn's gonna get the app and track all our cycles. There's an app? ♪ Yeah, we get older every day ♪ ♪ Couple wrinkles, that's okay ♪ ♪ Yeah, we're laughing when we age ♪ ♪ Life is like a comedy stage ♪ ♪ And that's what we got times ♪ Hey, everybody, I'm Kim Holderness. And I'm Penn Holderness. Welcome to Laugh Lines. If you ever thought you had anxiety and OCD and PMDD and PCOS and then went through Perry Metapos and realized all your coping mechanisms like your hormones just collapsed. And then realized who's ADHD all along, welcome. My goodness, what a laundry list of what a journey you just took. Was that just me? Apparently not, we're about to break this journey down. Because Kim was recently diagnosed with ADHD after a long list of things she was trying to work out. And we're gonna bring in the person who helped her realize that. First off, I wanna tell you a story about something that happened to me last night. Okay. Just last night. This is a classic ADHD story. I played tennis. I was terrible at it. Okay. After the match, I basically did the equivalent of a kid throwing all of his toys out of the stroller that he's in. I did get a text message that says I quit tennis and never playing again. I've flooded, I got so mad. I used to enjoy it and I still, I woke up this morning like after like dreaming about tennis. Like I think I'm never playing again. I'm so competitive and like overreacting to when things go wrong. And I was so upset. I left my really nice hoodie at the tennis court also. And my friend who like I was so busy venting to you about tennis called me to try to tell me and he had to go drive back and pick it up and bring it back to my house. So I'm this morning feeling like I have a fairly obvious and classic case of ADHD. Which I think a lot of boys get that diagnosis very early because they're doing very obvious things, right? You are one of millions of women who are finding out later in life that they have ADHD because you didn't really classically present like that. - Well, I'm learning now. I think one of the most common things in our family since my diagnosis is like there were signs. Like there were definitely signs. Like booking plane tickets to the wrong city, literally incapable of doing paperwork. Like there were signs, but there were a lot of things that I'm learning that were symptoms of ADHD that I had no idea about. - You went through this like I think three step path that millions of moms have gone through. And a lot of times our book has played a part in this. ADHD is awesome. Like number one, you started by being support to an ADHD family, right? Number two, when you started learning more about ADHD like buying our book, you took that info and you like thought, hmm, that's me, but you also kind of tucked it away. In your case, you literally tucked it into a drawer. And then you had this mindset number three that you actually said to me like, we can't all have ADHD. - I really feel protective over the diagnosis because I've worked so hard for my son specifically and for you to have resources and accommodations and like I've been screaming for the world to pay attention to people with ADHD. And if we all have ADHD, I was like, we cannot have it, we can't, if we all have it, then no one does and then like nobody. So I was a little resistant to that. - Yeah, and I mean to say this, like resistant, you were incredible. Like you were able to like get through all of this stuff. And it's interesting because I toured the end when we were learning about it. I would say, are you sure? Maybe you don't also have it. Sometimes your husband is not the best person to realize that. And so we're bringing in the person who finally I think has properly diagnosed my wife and has changed your life. - The woman sitting right next to us, having to awkwardly listen to us. - Yeah, she's here, she's listening. - She's listening. - Is the woman who diagnosed me with ADHD. This woman knows so much about me, but we're gonna, we're gonna, a lot of that in kidding. - Okay. - I'm kidding. No, no, no, but I think it would just be very helpful as we're going through this process to she was the first person who I said out loud, I'm like, well, isn't everybody like this? And she's like, no, you're not. So, okay, let's stop talking about her awkwardly in front of her. - You don't want it like is she like, let's just keep cutting away her, smiling. - I'm nodding. - I feel like for the edits, like this is, you're doing a great job. - I'm trying. - And now we're gonna introduce you with you sitting right here, which is the best part. - Okay, Dr. Millie Kelly is a trauma and form therapist researcher, author, TEDx speaker and the developer of the Women Centered ADHD Treatment Model, which we're gonna hear a lot about. And she has over 20 years experience working with the neurodivergent. She founded the Powered by ADHD Community. She owns her own counseling practice. She's been featured on MPR, Chicago Tribune Psychology today. All there are two books, including Powered by ADHD strategies and exercises for women to harness their untapped gifts. - You have such a fancy doctor. - I mean, she's so fancy. - She also is the clinician who's had a carcass for me and said, "Woman, you have ADHD." She, again, knows a lot about me and she's good at really like one of the best making sense of all of it. So I'm not gatekeeping. I'm sharing a with you. - Welcome to the show. - Thank you for having me. - Dr. Millie Kelly. - Oh my gosh. And like it's been so fun having you in our house because, and then I forget sometimes that this is not a therapy session and we were just like talking. And we started doing that before in Penn's like, let's talk about this. - No, I wanted to talk about it while we were rolling. So let's go. Let's have a therapy session. I have no problem with that. - You and I today are gonna go through some things that I'm learning are rooted in ADHD. I will say this as a disclaimer, ADHD exists in a spectrum. These could be signs of other things too. - Right. - So just because I have this and I have a therapist telling that's not gonna diagnose you with ADHD. - Yeah. - Okay. - I wanna know just how you, like can you take us through the initial diagnosis because she thought she had anxiety. She thought she had OCD. Maybe she did. She thought, I mean she had some postpartum where all these things had like, how'd she get there? - Well first and foremost, our first conversation that we had had when you described how your anxiety was showing up. And even the narrative that she had about it just kind of my feelers went up and I'm thinking okay, we wanna dig into this more. But here's the thing, you just brought up so many co-occurring diagnoses. That's the thing we have to be really careful about. - Yeah, they're all buddies. - They are. They are and they on a nervous system level, they feed each other on a self-narrative level, they feed each other. We're starting to learn, I guarantee you, a year from now even, we're gonna know so much more about how trauma has an impact on ADHD, how again we're learning more and more about hormones. So I think it's really important not to silo any of these diagnoses and say, well if it's this it can't be that, if that makes sense. There's no denying that you struggle and struggled with anxiety. But I think the problem sometimes can be, if we look at it as this generalized experience, we're disqualifying the actual root system to it. And for me in meeting you and doing the full, we went through lots of intake paperwork, we did a full comprehensive clinical because I wanna know the full story, everything from family of origin, how things in your life are functioning, what are your relationships like, depression, anxiety, substance use, I mean not that that was an issue, but we're going through everything first. And then from there, after you did the ASRS, is a really accessible, easy for anyone to find online assessment that can just kind of give you first clues. Then we went on and did an empirically supported assessment for women, it's for everyone but it's one that's normed for women and know what that means is you wanna make sure your therapist is using an assessment that has been studied on women before. And also looks for internalizing symptoms because it's so much more common in women. And so that's what we did. And then if you don't mind me sharing, please, there was something interesting that is very common that happened after your diagnosis. I don't think you were excited at first. It wasn't, and I was careful with that. I don't know if you picked up on that, but I knew we weren't fully, I don't wanna say bought in, but there was definitely some trepidation and fully embodying it. So I made space. I made space for her to take her time, to figure out what that meant for her. I didn't even bring ADHD back up for a couple sessions. You truly didn't. - I hope I didn't do the wrong thing. I wanted to throw her like a cake party if you told me about it. 'Cause I think it's cool. - Well good to have different relationships and different supports. - I just think it's a cool thing. I think it's a cool thing to bring. Sorry, go ahead. - No, and thank you for saying that because I didn't even tell my mom for six months. Like I, so I obviously got in the car and I called Penn and my son and they were really sweet and they are excited. They're like, First of all, they were like, duh. (laughing) - What's for dinner? - I think that's part of a latent life diagnosis is I was, first of all, wrote a freaking book about ADHD and although I recognized myself and it didn't ask the question for myself. So I felt really ashamed and embarrassed. And then again, I'm very protective of the diagnosis and I was thinking, like, are you sure? (laughing) - So it took me a while to grapple with it and then Penn has a funny story 'cause I, it has changed my life. Do you wanna tell the George story? - Oh my gosh. So her, I know that you're saying that there was some shame and there were like women experienced shame. - But the pause. - Radistines. - Yeah, like the pause. - Yeah, maybe what shame's the wrong term. - Yeah. - They experienced some radicence. - Right. - Since then, she has, since, I'm gonna use the term, since she came out, she has been, Sam, I'm gonna explain why, I know, I get it, I'm sorry. She has, it's been a different kind of person. One of my favorite people, he came out to us and this was in the early 2000s and it was such a beautiful, amazing moment. And before that, he was very conservative and his mannerisms and everything. - But together. - Because he was afraid of who he was. And gave him a big hug and everything was great. And then we moved away a few months later. Came back and saw him a couple years later at a wedding and he comes up and he goes, "Pen!" And I'm like, "What's going on, man? How you been?" And he just, the first thing he says to me is, "I got gayer!" (laughing) And I'm like, "What is this?" Just, his way of saying that he's able to finally like express himself. - Like I'm more mean. - He is more, who he is. - Yeah. - We met a version of him who was more himself than he'd ever been. And of course, we like, it was so awesome because he was able to tell everybody and everybody accepted it. And like he was able to figure out who he was. - There's a parallel in the way that Kim is able to express herself now. Like she's, it's something that she was ashamed of. It's something she didn't want to tell anybody. And now like she's able to, and it's a different personality for her. Like almost like a lightness. - Yeah, I feel, you know, I think because I do, I understand, again, the anxiety diagnosis, not wrong, but like the roots of it. I think I could really trace back to ADHD. - Yeah, I could see how it would remove the anxiousness about anxiety. Like you're not anxious about being anxious? - Yes. - It's kind of like, "Oh, okay, if I went through a checklist and checked in on how have I been supporting my nervous system, how am I supporting myself?" Mmm, these things have fallen. No wonder I'm feeling more anxious today. - Yeah. - And more of like a framework for why it's even happening. - I think it's so interesting, and we're gonna get to all of these learnings that I've been discovering about myself. But you have, you had a way of screening, and I think it was very important that you were reading the questions to me because, hey, I don't think I would've gone through all of them. I probably would've clicked through and forgotten. - I love that you say that. If you don't mind me mentioning real quick, when I was, I was training people in the WCAT just Monday. - Yeah, and they asked so many questions about assessment. And I just looked at them squarely. All 500 of them are however many. And I said, "Listen, please stop sending long, exhaustive intake paperwork where they are answering questions that they should be answering with you interpersonally. One, because it helps build trust, but two, half of them will never fill them out. - Never. - They're not gonna fill out the extent. It's so overwhelming for your nervous system and your executive functions. - Yeah. - Thank you for saying that. - No, I'm not important. - A, if you had sent that to me online, never would've done it. - I'm guessing. - Yes, and then B, you were able to interpret, like a lot of the questions sound the same. And, but they're trying to get a different thing. So that was very helpful. We get a lot of questions when we were touring around and meeting people and it was, we got several this weekend when we were in Nashville that was, how important is it to have a therapist who is really informed about ADHD and women? I think it's very important, but maybe you can answer that better. - I think it's everything, yeah. Honestly, because there's nothing that ADHD doesn't touch. And so, if you're looking at something through one lens and you're not looking at through the ADHD lens, you could be disqualifying and ignoring essentially a full scope of who the person is. And now, I don't wanna make it so personified or like I am ADHD, like this is all of me. But, when you're able to be with someone who understands that some of what you're doing is just based on your neurosurcatory and it doesn't have to be another pathology, it actually helps reduce shame, it can be really empowering. And I find those who work with ADHD informed therapists, especially ones who get it with women because of hormones and cycles and all of this, they tend to mask less with their therapists. They're even more real, more open. They fidget, they move. I have some clients who lay on the ground, I'm giving you ideas. (laughing) - No, that was an option. - Or like those who will bring in their own fidgets or bring in their, I have one who brings their stuffy and she's an adult. I mean, whatever floats your boat. - Yeah. - I feel like it helps you be more yourself with that person. - Yes. - So you deal with adults for the most part? - Primarily at this point, I started my career with teens, and then I just kept shifting towards adults. - Totally understandable. And so I want to talk about the kids. - Yeah, sure. - The most often avenue for diagnosis now, I think we're getting closer to like pediatricians, like expert pediatricians who know about it. Do pediatricians know enough about symptoms and girls? - I hope they're learning more. I mean, here's the thing. There's so many components to what can happen for girls, especially when we look at puberty, which I think we'll talk about hormones, but specifically for girls, there's some really interesting things that happen. We'll just use the age of 12, just for instance, because it's actually research shows when they are starting to be diagnosed more. There's this collision course where we have social pressure coming in and this increased desire to be accepted or understood by peers at the very same time that hormones are rising and then here's something really odd. When the estrogen starts to raise for a girl that she's preparing for her first period, she can actually become less hyperactive and less impulsive as we're watching what happens as estrogen is modifying this for her. So I'm not saying this is consistent, but it can make the externalizing symptoms even less available. - Of course. - At the very same time that the rejection sensitive issues are starting to creep up when we're looking to how am I doing socially? So they're internalizing even further. There's such a deep internalization happening at that time. And so I think it's important to pay a little bit more attention into how they feel about the effort they're having to put in. How do they feel like they're similar or different from their peers? Like listen to them, this is not just them saying, I don't fit in or I don't feel popular. This is the first signs of like starting to understand that they feel so very different that they can't kind of find their way on this neurodivergent path at the same time that everyone is falling apart, right? Puberty is just a chaos for everyone. - Right, but the problem is is that they can become more likely to experience bullying because of the social nuances that they might not get sometimes because everything is so internalized. And they can also be more likely to be targeted by teachers. And not, I don't mean in a malicious way, but in over-corrective way so that then they're working extra hard to not look like they're falling apart. I mean, I have these very visceral memories and like there were signs of social studies, sorry, for anyone who loves social studies, not my jam. Even though I love learning when I'm somewhere 'cause shockingly when you're somewhere you're more into it. And like feeling dread and overwhelming stress as I'm sitting there trying to answer questions to this test that I could care less about. - Yeah. - So I started to feel not as, I don't know, like I wasn't that smart, like I wasn't that capable. And the irony too, I remember getting tested around that time, not for ADHD, but for something related to IQ for this like advanced program. I got bored halfway through, they were signs. - And didn't answer all the questions. - Right, there is no one explain what it was about or what the reason was or like. - So the people who are taking in that test, if you don't finish it, they should just tell us - 'Cause you grow bored. - That's right, and it wasn't until a couple months ago when I'm meeting with this amazing guest on my podcast who was talking about twice exceptionality. And I go, yeah, I carried that one point with me forever. That one point, I didn't make the cut for this advanced and gifted program by one point. And she looks at me and she goes, wait, you didn't finish the test. - Yeah. - And you only missed it by one point. - Yeah. - No one bothered to like sit with me and explain that to me or work through, I didn't feel like it was something to talk about. I just felt embarrassed. There were signs. There were signs. When were you diagnosed? It was actually not until after I had my son. Okay. So it was this collision course of paramanopaus beginning, births, and COVID. Oh, jeez. So all, and it was actually at first I thought it was because I was struggling doing telehealth all the time. Fair. That's what I, that's why I originally was trying to seek an answer because I'm like, why is this? I should be able to do this. You already had done your PhD, I mean, you and I have very similar stories. I relate to you in writing that story, like you were talking about writing your book because I always said I did my doctoral dissertation on exercise with adults because I was inspired by my husband and his ADHD and his ADHD. So you, you, you had a PhD level knowledge of ADHD. Right. And okay. So I feel a little bit better that I didn't get a diagnosis until later. You're not alone though. I mean, in, in my group yesterday, because we met yesterday, there was about 12 women there yesterday. And at one point we're talking about late diagnosis. And I just said, just show a hand, everyone, just raise your hand if you were diagnosed after like the age of 30, everyone. The whole group. Well, they're, they're all taking their kids to the pediatrician or the psychologist and they're telling them because ADHD is highly genetic. Right. I know. This is, so this is what I keep telling you, I'm glad it's always better coming from not your husband. Isn't everything? Right. Always. Right. I've been saying this to Sam. But you and I have been saying this to her like, yes, it doesn't change the power of the book, right? Which is, which is you are showing people how to be a good partner to some with ADHD, which you can do while you have ADHD, I'm looking at you too, Ann Marie. Yep. And you know, do you know who Russell Barclay is? Yes. You know that he's coined a term for this. No. It's literally called the mommy factor. Oh, wow. Yes. It's the collision of societal pressure, hormones, the 70 to 80% heritability for children. Yeah. And if they're raised by parents with ADHD, also having ADHD, but he's saying it's so common that it needs its own kind of self-clinable mom for it. Exactly. Okay. Yes, because you allegedly have other clients, which is boo, boo, boo. I moved around. I moved around. Are you cheating on Kim? I don't cheat on Kim. So I'm going to put only 50 other people. Right. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. More on this after these words. I have a list of 10 things we'll try to get through these. These are things that I've learned about myself. You're not going to find them in the DSM. I'm not going to. Okay. If I mentioned these things, these will not get you diagnosed with ADHD, but like there were signs. This is like the YM magazine quiz. Like the glamour magazine. The glamour magazine. Or. Wow. You just need, because most people would say Buzzfeed, but if you're already, you say L or YM. So welcome to Gen X. We're glad you're here. Yeah. Okay. So here's a sign. I'm great in a crisis. Like somebody's hurt, the dishwasher caught fire. Yeah. With the fire extinguisher, I'm calling the fire department. I'm making, I'm evacuating everybody so buttoned up. But then you ask me, I have to make a dentist appointment, and I literally can't. Right. Like I'm great in a crisis, but cannot make a dentist appointment. What's going on? Two completely different sets of executive functions that you're demanding in those two situations. So when we look at the dishwasher fire, for example, your brain is getting everything it needs in that moment. It's getting urgency. It's getting novelty. I mean a dishwasher and fire is pretty novel. It's also getting a clear path all right in front of you. And this could even apply to something simpler like our child, you know, bumps or knee or something. We know, get the ointment, get the bandaid, come for them without freaking out. Like this is all right here right now. We have to take care of it. That's exactly what the ADHD brain needs. The other, the appointment. That's a completely different set of skills that's working memory. And do I need this? That's planning. That's organizing and all without pressure. Right. It's outside that interest-based nervous system right that you need something that's challenging or new or novel. Exactly. And you know, I think this gets misunderstood as like you deciding what's important and what's not. Yeah. That's not what it is. And so honestly, for those who can't make the appointment, please just stop expecting yourself to make the appointment. And I have told my own dentist, my own providers, don't let me leave without making an appointment. Yeah. Don't let me leave. Yeah. Bar the door. Yeah. So I've started, I used to not do this, but I've started putting reminders and calendar stuff like while I'm sitting there with them because they're like little singular reminder. I'm like, mm-hmm. No. Yeah. This one is validating but maddening that I didn't know. Okay, ADHD symptoms are apparently worse with estrogen dips and all of that stuff. So right before my period after baby, Perry, Menopause, so I was diagnosed with PMDD, who's part of depression, PCOS, all these things. So there was physical pain too, but emotionally like off the rails. Yeah. What are we learning about why the symptoms are worse during these times? Okay. Luckily, we're learning a lot right now, so much that it's just rapid fire. Yeah. One thing that I think it's really illuminating for a lot of people when we talk about this, you will not identify why you're struggling emotionally with executive functions during the estrogen drop, which really starts to ramp down after ovulation, leading into late luteal phase. Otherwise known as gluteal phase. Oh, wow. That makes it much clearer. Right. What's luteal and gluteal? Well, same thing. Gluteal phase. Okay. What's it either of them in? Essentially, it's the period leading up to your period where your body is dropping estrogen, raising progesterone in preparation for at least an egg that didn't turn into a baby. But here's what happens during that time. So executive functioning gets directly impacted because estrogen is dopaminergic, meaning it helps regulate dopamine. It helps dopamine not be sucked up by the synapses too fast. It helps us like she's the, I think it's Dr. Jolene who says like she's the it girl. I love that. Like all the other hormones are following her around. Right. Love it. So that tiny little egg causes like a conga line of executive functioning to like all focus on your reproductive process of estrogen. You said it all starts with like, yeah, well, when it doesn't, basically when it doesn't turn into pregnancy, right? So what happens during that time interestingly is as the estrogen is dropping, the executive functions are being supported at the very same time that progesterone is rising. Now, progesterone's tricky and I think it needs a little bit more publicity because progesterone, when it's enough and when you have a good response to it, almost kind of prepares your body for the potential pregnancy like it slows things down. It allows you to be a little calmer like it can actually be a calming agent when there's just enough, but here's the tricky thing. People with a women with ADHD are more sensitive to any changes and this is very important for people to understand. It's not that you're going to go to your provider and they're going to notice a difference in your hormones as compared to a non-ADHD person. It doesn't mean you have less estrogen, it doesn't mean your hormones are more erratic. It means that when they change, you're more sensitive to them. So that's why a blood panel will not pick this up. Your own internal experience. Well, honestly, his external experience because he's dealing with my internal experience. Yeah. But this is also fascinating. Your body is a wonderland, babe. Seriously, do you have the ability to create life, carries with it all of this? That's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. Well, I think because postpartum depression and anxiety was bleeping wide old. And I think it would have been nice to know. I think like the title, my book should be, it would have been nice to know because not that it would have changed the experience. How did it actually? Yeah, it would have been nice to know. Not that it would have changed the, it lessened the experience, but like knowing. Like, oh, this is how my body is reacting. Right. Knowing also allows you to prepare around that. So that's something really central to the Women's Center to ADHD treatment is looking at the windows of time of what your capacity will be during that time. So don't stop exercising because you're PMassing because it's actually worse for your hormones of though you don't feel like doing it. But maybe change how you do. Okay. So maybe you're saying, okay, I'm ludial. Let me at least do a little yoga. Let me at least walk. Let me at least do something that supports me that's not as activating because I really don't want to peel myself off the couch. Right. Okay. This is also good. Every single one of these could be its own podcast. Okay. This is something I, that has always brought me, I've always been ashamed of. But I have a wonderful deer jump in front of a train, friendships. I feel very lucky that I have so many women in my life that I truly deeply love. But I have trouble maintaining those friendships. I am really terrible about staying in contact. Like they will text. I don't text right back because I'm like, I'm going to text back or I'm going to call when the timing is perfect, timing is never perfect. And then I forget. And so, it's very out of sight, out of mind. Doesn't mean I don't love these people. I just, like, I forget, like, my brain doesn't miss them in the same way I think other people do. - Mm-hmm. - Like, what's the, what is, is that just me? - What's the neediness of that? - Yeah, okay. So first of all, the missing, I just wanna like, relieve any shame around missing them. I don't think it doesn't mean you don't miss them and it would love to see them. - Right, truly. - But we have to look at maintaining friendships as another executive function. Okay, because it takes the planning, the remembering, and the executing. But then we throw rejection sensitivity into this, okay? So if you are, for example, you know, fallen out of contact with a really good friend and you are like, I haven't talked to them in weeks. This is gonna seem so weird. Why are there, they're, they're probably gonna be taking care of their kids. Like, there's, there's this laundry list of things that can start to rattle off. And reasons why you suspect this person might be annoyed that you haven't contacted them. Instead of them just being happy to hear from you, which is actually more likely. So there's two things that really need to happen in this area. First and foremost, we look at the executive function portion of this, which is remembering. I'm glad you set out of sight out of mind. There is a myth with ADHD that we really need to be clear about. - Okay. - Object permanence is not an ADHD issue. People with ADHD don't think that their friend has completely disappeared. That's object permanence. I'm so serious about this. - Yeah, no, this is good. - Object permanence. - This is good. - The difference, and that's a very early, we're talking two, three, four years old that that's an issue. The difference is that it's missing the cue. We're missing the cue for our friend in our everyday life as we're moving through all of the different things that we need to be pay attention to. But as soon as they're there with you, the cue's there. - I'm glad you're saying this, 'cause I do TikTok's not a great place to-- - No, what is it? Like 50% of it is true or something. - Yeah, and I've seen object permanence, ADHD, stuff on TikTok. - Not true. - Now, out of sight out of mind, if we want to like reference it that way, if that's okay, but different. And so, but then the rejection sensitive part, I think this is really crucial to remember with us. If you will be willing to start unmasking with your friends safely and at a pace that you feel comfortable with, and letting them know like, hey, for me, for example, I don't like being on the phone when there's anything else in the world I could be doing. - Right. - The only time I'm really good at being a friend on the phone is on my Bluetooth in my car, because I'm stuck in the car, nowhere else to go, right? And so, I have like a standing date to call my best friend when I'm actually I texted her on my way here and said, hey, sorry, I'm trying to keep my brain clear before I'll give you a call after. And she's like, yay, have fun. - Yeah. - So knowing that about herself and sharing that, and I encourage people to have some faith in your friends and give it a try. And if they're not responsive or supportive, it's kind of a sign of the health of their relationship. - Okay, that was good. I needed a pep talk on that. - You do it. - So I actually made the dentist appointment. - Oh, good. - Let's say I did. Let's say I did. - Maybe by the time this is over, you're gonna make the appointment. - I will have made the appointment. And it's at three o'clock, it's at three o'clock today, or no tomorrow 'cause I'm actually doing this. I literally, I don't have the built, I can't get myself to do anything else during the day 'cause I was like, I can't do that 'cause I have a dentist appointment at three. I don't know, and Penn and I talk about this all the time, but it's like time to leave the airport. For whatever reason, I have this time is so distorted. I don't know how long things take. And so I, again, I'm never really late for things. I'm actually more early for things 'cause I don't know how long things take. - Right. - So, and again, if I have a three o'clock dentist appointment, I can't do anything during the day, like my day's toast. - Okay. - So relatable, okay. So relatable. Now, when we look at what executive functions are being pressed on with that, you brought up time. So time blindness is a real thing with ADHD. It shows up differently for different people though. Like your version of time blindness is, and I'm curious if you guys have the same version or is it different? - You mean of ADHD? - Kind of like not ADHD, but the way that you handle time. - Yes, 100, well I've been doing this for 30 years. - So, here's how it is. He believes he can paint the house. - See, that's me. - Yeah. So like, hey, we're having people over in 45 minutes. I could do a quick base coat. I can get this done. - It's the best time to do it. - You're gonna be really efficient if you only have 45 minutes to paint the house. - And like, he can write a book. And he can, and that stresses me out. So I will say, I have a wonderful psychiatrist who's suggested some ADHD meds. If there is a day, for whatever reason, the biggest benefit of ADHD medication for me has been, it makes time seem like real. Like I can, I'm not overwhelmed by a list of things to do, because I'm like, oh, I'll clearly have time for that. - Right. - I don't know how to explain that. Okay, but anyway, go ahead. - Well, that is an executive function that occurs in the frontal cortex when our working memory, when our time sequencing is working well. So it would make sense. - Okay. - Because medication helps the orchestra work together. - Yeah. - It helps all the different messages fire more effectively. But let's take these two examples, because I think it's really important. This isn't necessarily kind of a gender norm thing as far as if you're more example A or example B, but both are centered around the miscommunication of time, but there's something really important also. It's the anticipation of the transitions. And the transition of getting yourself, like you don't want to get in the middle of something, and then have to pull yourself away from it, and then transition emotionally, physically, kind of interceptively, how do I get all of my needs met to be prepared enough to go to the appointment at three? So you can literally feel paralyzed when you have that appointment. And that's why honestly, I tried to do a lot of my stuff earlier in the day. - Okay. - Because of the fact that I know if I have it planned later in the day, I'm gonna be thinking about that. Almost all day. And you have this, it doesn't even have to be something that makes you anxious, but you can have like an anticipatory anxiety about it. - Yes. - Coming. Or, which you can either kind of settle into that, be like, I am just going to wait. Or you can do what we do where we're like, well, this is uncomfortable. I don't like the waiting. So I'm gonna try to see what I can get done during the waiting. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I know that we have different types of ADHD, but like, okay, so a week ago, I had an eye doctor appointment. One of my eyes is-- - He can't see. - Going completely, it's just gone complete. Like in the last year, I either have like, macular degeneration. - It is not. And it's like, of course, it's one. It can't just be like, - But I'm like diagnosing myself with cataracts and glaucoma and all this stuff. So I need to get to the doctor. - Yeah. - And so I had an appointment for like, one o'clock the next day. And something was going on with this place, that they kept canceling my appointment and sending me a test. - It was an AI. - It was an AI thing. - That's annoying. - Not just annoying. Like, a lot of these things you're talking about. So I got so mad, I called them, and they were like, okay, no, we'll reschedule. Then it canceled again. I completely broke up with them. I jumped them on the side. - I can't complain to be honest. - Yeah. Because of the sheer terror that I was gonna have to schedule another appointment. - Right. - Just having to do that. - Like, don't you know what this took? - Yes. - Yeah. So maybe that's not a great corollary, but-- - Well, that's more emotional regulation. - Well, I've got a lot of that. That's my main thing. - It is so interesting. Okay, so this explains a lot because, so that might be not only the time distortion thing, but the trouble with transitions. I remember I read this on my report card growing up and it was all over my daughter's report cards. Kim struggles with transitions or little struggles with transitions. Like, I would get into something and then you ask me to switch gears. Like, I can't do math after I've been doing this. Like, I can't do that. So therefore, one of the other things was, I will spend eight hours avoiding taking a shower and then I'll do anything to it. And then once I end the shower, you can't get me out. Like, enter any other thing too. Like, I'll spend eight hours avoiding cleaning the house, but then once I'm in-- - Right, I'm in. - So the transition. - Yes, nice transition to transitions. That was so good. And you know, ironically, I'd mentioned that I had group yesterday. This literally came up in group. - Really? - It was a hot topic, the shower situation. - Okay. - For some odd reason. - I want to join a screw. - You're welcome to come. We'd love to have you. So, okay, here's the thing. Again, it's almost like everything that we brought up, there's like these two sides of each coin. Showers. The irony is that showering actually is a really helpful coping mechanism for people with ADHD. There's even research that shows that if you shower a bed within one to two hours before going to bed, for example, it helps with sleep onset and deepens your sleep. This is for a variety of reasons. Having to do with your nervous system but also temperature control in your body. So, just throwing that little kind of hack out there. But here's the thing. Something can be so good for you. and it can still be hard to transition into. We're looking at a collision of executive functioning of having to go through all the steps it takes to make the shower happen and then all the steps it takes to get out. And the irony is that it's not the shower itself that someone is necessarily, and this is, you know, besides some people may have sensory issues or trauma, but we're talking about like run of the mill avoidance of getting it done. It's not that I'm assuming you don't not enjoy a shower. Love a shower. Love a shower. Love a shower. But it can feel literally painful transitioning out of it, for example, being cold, being wet, being gross, like having to like dry off and do all the things. And if the towel, if it's not a good towel, forget it. See, those are the things that we need to be mindful of for ourselves. Like for me, it's if my robe is not within grasp of me grabbing this while I'm still in the heat of the steam. I won't do it. My sensory thing is weird where I don't like washing my face at night because I don't like the wetness. I would rather go through all the task of showering and avoid sleep over the wetness of my sweatshirt. So we're also looking at ADHD has been found consistently. And I think we're going to keep seeing more and more of this to have more sensory sensitivity. So yeah. So something like avoiding the shower could be this collision of the different executive functions it takes to stop what you're doing, prioritize the steps and do it. And we really have to be mindful of what is this task demanding of your sensory needs. Are a lot of these things specific to women? Like everything, because Kim has been listing a lot of these things and I, like you said, ADHD is a snowflake. Yeah. I just, it is amazing. Like in your nodding your head and a lot of other women are nodding their heads, it really does present itself extremely differently. So do you not have the same sensory shower experience? No, I love being like turning into a popsicle when I get out of the shower kind of wakes me up. But that kind of lends to your biology though too because we're learning so much more about like cold plunging for example. It's not as safe for women as we once thought because we take longer to re-regulate our temperature. Okay. So think about the fact that a woman with ADHD. So a woman is already going to have a little bit more of a lag in re-regulating temperature. And then you throw the fact that anything that pulls your attention away with ADHD, whether it be pain, emotional pain, discomfort, it can feel so much more difficult to recover from it. It makes sense, right? Like we're talking about biology. You just mentioned it there. The reproductive system has a big, plays a big part in some of the things you were talking about as well. It's, I mean, it's just fat. Like it almost needs its own DSM. We have to be aware of those things because if we are expecting a woman, for example, to use the same coping mechanisms in the same ways to address the same, you have the same executive functioning issues for man and woman. But the way that the woman would need to have those attended to have to include her biology, have to include context so much more. But then we're also leaving one other thing out. By the time you get into the shower, for example, you may have potentially, and maybe this doesn't exist for you guys, but some dynamics, you know, if we're taking a hetero-sexual relationship, some dynamics, the woman has done an excessively larger amount of executive functions during the day managing the family. Because, and this is based on research, the Pew Institute. No, gender norms, expectations, the pressure we put on ourselves. You know, I was meeting with one of my clients yesterday. She's literally 25. Doesn't have kids yet. Has ADHD is just in her like, she's going to get married to the guy. So she's on her way. And she was literally saying to me yesterday, I'm worried I'm not going to be able to keep up with all the things that are expected of me. I'm like, well, maybe it shouldn't all be expected of you. I have to say I did hit the lottery with this one. So like, but, but I do know. That's why I feel safe saying this to you, honestly. I'm the one who asked the question. So they're, look, thank you for saying that. I wasn't always this awesome. Like it's taken some time. From your next book, Penn is awesome. I wasn't always awesome. I'm still deeply flawed in a lot of ways. I will say the beginning, more of the beginning of our marriage, we, we just fell into these and we did marriage counseling about it. We can have fell into these roles. We call them secret contracts. Like I'll do this. You do that. Like we just fell into it without a discussion. Truly marriage counseling changed it because he's like, no, I don't mind doing all this stuff. Like I don't. So we were able to split it in a really honest way. And it, it, I don't think this house would operate if it was just me. And like, I just, I want to say this too, like everything that has helped me evolve in the way, I think about this issue has been like evidence-based, right? I'm not, it's, it's not a touchy feeling thing like the science of the way that my brain works and why I'm like letting her down in certain ways. The science of like shame, the science of like emotionally dysregulating and acting, like a complete crazy person like when something really small happens. Like there's a, there's a reason for that. Like I tried, I tried, I wanted to throw my tennis rackets in the garbage last night. For like me to bring a spare. I mean, I do have a spare. Like I have a million tennis rackets. I still could play. I'm just, I'm 52. Why am I still doing this? And like today he can zoom out and be like, wow, they weren't handing out a college scholarship. Right. There was no television camera. It wasn't, you weren't losing money. Right. But you're sitting here explaining not like, I've heard the part about, hey, women feel shame. That's true. There's also biology to all of this, specifically female biology to all of this. That, that cries for a different like entirely different protocol when it comes to dealing with it. So the name of, the name of your protocol, or what, just tell us the name of this program. And, and this is for therapists, right? Yes, and yes, and so if someone's saying it in, you know, kind of like street terms, it's Wcat, which is W-C-A-T women centered ADHD treatment. Okay. And it is something that therapists, health providers, anyone who kind of falls in the health arena for CE's can come and get trained. Okay. It's a two day course. And then from there, I partner with Pessie, which is this large, amazing company that educates professionals in my field. We have formed the Wcat Institute. I love it. This week, which I'm very, yeah, very excited. It was kind of the baby that was born because I said, you need this baby to be born. Right. Because we're going to have a full certification path. So they're going to be able to get trained. And there were men at my training on Monday, which is what we need. We need male clinicians and providers there. This is not just women helping women. So, and then from there, we have three consult calls where we go through how to apply the pillars because there's seven pillars of this that help organize the ways that we treat women. And then after that, they submit a case study that the institute will look over, you get your full certification, and then to keep certified. And I think this is important. You become part of a community of individuals who want to continue learning about the newest and latest research. And you come to at least one consult call a year where you get to learn what's new, what's going on, how's it going for you? Like, we need to be staying fresh when it comes to this. Especially in this field, because it's become my hyper focus, like the research on women, they think God, and they God, it's being done. Literally, the book I'm writing right now, I keep having to talk to my editor and say, I'm so sorry, I need to add something to chapter one again. That's amazing. Okay. So, the next one is I don't clean on a schedule, but when somebody's coming over, that's like the only time I clean. And then when I clean, this might just be a me thing, like I'll be cleaning the attic, but you'll never see the attic. Like, yeah, so a urgency, more on this after these words. Yes, and so there's, of course, that's actually this episode is called yes, and yes. So this is what's interesting about this. It's not just urgency. So I think the first thought process would be, oh, well, of course, you have people coming over, there's urgency, there's pressure, there's maybe a little rejection sensitivity kind of pushing us, but there's also the fact that we misunderstand ADHD as being sometimes a deficit in attention. But I think, right, you guys are learning and have eloquently expressed this yourself, that it's also the struggle to change course or move attention where it's needed. So you could start cleaning and then get distracted by your baseboards. And the motivation, I hate the word motivation, sometimes with ADHD, because it's so tricky. But in that moment, motivation is like, well, those are gross. So you start with them and then that's where that hyperfocus gets channeled. So we don't exactly get to go, oh, I need to also remember to do all these other things that are really boring that I don't want to do or they're gross. But the baseboard in the room you'll never see, like that's very important to me. Yeah, at that time. Right. And that's where that urgency and that novelty comes in. So that's why I would recommend just like quick hack for that. Make sure you have what you need in every room you need it when you need it so that you don't have to leave the room you're in to go get the cleaning supply. There's already a little station, whether it be in the bathroom, whether it be like a cleaning, a scattering of cleaning supplies upstairs because chances are if you go to a different location, you get pulled into a different type of cleaning and forget what you were enough. Remember, not object permanence, it still exists, but you've been now distracted and now something else is way more fun to clean. Yes. So just have stations. Just have stations, if it's possible. That is, that's, yeah, that's very important. I have what I like to call doom piles. Again, our house looks like super organized. Again, we have, we have help because that would not happen without help. But I have piles of everything and I look really organized, but it's just piles of crap. The most famous one is in our bathtub usually. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. What is that? That is like where I, this no longer fits me. I want to donate this. That's what I feel like every woman has a pile of stuff that's like, I'm going to donate. That's my, like, that's not a doom pile. That's just, I'm going to donate it at some point. Maybe we need to define that doom pile. It's a pile in our bathtub. It's a pile. It's always there. If I bring something and I try to push push it out and I'm always cleaning out my closet, like I just, that just, it just exists. It doesn't bother me. I don't ever take a bath. It's fine. It's just use of the bathtub. I take a shower. I'm thinking more of like bills. My kryptonite can't do it. Can't do a bill. So that just piles up like things I need to respond to all this stuff. And I never respond to any of those things. They just like kind of pile up. Yeah. Like need to do. I'm going to do it. I swear I got. I'm going to do it. And it's just like piles of crap everywhere. Okay. So let's define the difference between like a working memory pile and a doom pile. Okay. Okay. So doom piles in the ADHD world stands for didn't organize only moved. Yes. Right? Yes. So technically your pile of clothes kind of are a doom pile because they weren't organized. They were only moved. However, you could really easily turn it into a working memory pile or what I talk about a lot kind of using house mapping. If you have a donation basket in your bathroom instead. So instead of throwing it into the tub, you throw it into the basket. And let me also, preface, we don't need to like steam press and fold and organize our donations. That is something I see a lot of my ADHD women with their with like baby clothes and things. I like to have them folded because I want them to like I don't want them to be wrinkled and messy. I don't I don't steam them, but I fold them. You do know what they do at those centers, right? I know. They dump it. I know. But I want it. I don't want people to judge me. Yeah, maybe a little rejection sensitivity there. I don't want to judge me for handing them crappy clothes. Well, so that okay, so now we have a whole another compromise. Yes. But so let's say we for the for the time being, we'll we'll put rejection sensitivity right here for a moment. So it is a true doom pile, however, if it is not organized only moved. But I think we think things are doom piles when they're actually also working memory piles. So for example, you were saying the bills in my house bills that I'm also I don't I it's just like it's too many steps. I don't want to have to go find my car to go put it in if it's not already like too many steps. So luckily I've offloaded and this is how an ADHD family should work like offload to pen what he is better at. Yeah. And then you just naturally are going to take what you are better at. I will take those and put them on the bottom of my husband's curing to literally prevent him from making coffee. Okay, but he's okay with that. Yeah, you read upon that is where. No, I'm like, I love this. I'm like, yeah, bitten by this idea. So that's where the working memory pile goes. But it can become a doom pile when it's the didn't organize only move. That's okay too, though. There's two categories to that. Does the doom pile relieve your stress or increase it? So for some folks, doom piles to others. They see your doom piles and they're overwhelmed because they don't know the rationale or why that stuff is where it is. But for a lot of ADHDers, if it's again, we borrow the out of sight out of mine idea, if it's not where we can see it, we don't know it's in existence, right? We forget. And that can that can be good sometimes. That's the point. Yeah. So some of those piles are really helpful when they become unhelpful is when they start to make us feel tense or tight and like just more stuff to process in our environment. Yeah. Right. I'm glad you brought that up because there are, look, people with ADHD are the ones who are getting through life okay are the ones who are constantly trying to find ways to cope with their deficiencies. I tell people get selfish about yourself. Yes. However, there are things that we just need. Yeah. Like there's I will not ever completely solve my fidgeting issue because my body fidgeting with my finger. Our body needs it. Our body needs to move. And so I just think that like if I completely got rid of it, there's something else is going to pop up like I'm going to snap probably at some point. You're right. So there's there needs to be room for just us being us. I think when it comes to some of this. And you know, the interesting thing too, it's funny. I keep thinking of the group because it was last night when we're talking about emotion regulation, we were talking about one of the girls in the group girls. She's like a 30 something or one. I do the same thing. If you're younger than me or a girl. But so one of the ladies in the group was talking about how she is so emotionally dysregulated and she feels so tired and overwhelmed. She's a nurse. Okay. That's a lot to handle. And so we talked about like do you let yourself fidget because she's also the stillest in the group. Like we're it's Zoom. So it's like Brady Bunch. Like we're all like flopping around. Some people are crocheting. Some people are eating. Like there's a lot happening. She's so still. And we talked about by her being so masked to your point and not allowing herself to just move freely. It can cause so much more distress. Which really remind remember this. Masking is a form of an executive function that really tires your frontal cortex out. Okay. This is the next perfect transition. The next one is being so wiped out at the end of the day because of masking and pretend. I have to say I think one of the reasons Penn has noticed a lightness about me is that for my entire life I was pretending to be a person who added together. And even within our marriage and I love him so deeply like I had to be the one that like if he had a G I had to be the one with the executive functioning. Like I had to do that even though he really was not putting it on me I was taking it. And so I think like the relief of just trying to learning how to be myself. But it was truly I was so exhausted by the end of the day I couldn't even talk to my family. Yeah. Like I didn't have words left for my family. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. And sometimes we need to allow for that like truly. I jokingly the other day I had a really long day and I hugged my husband I go this is the only one you're getting today. Just for a warning by the time you see me later there's going to be none left. So part of it is we just do have to like we show up for life. A lot of a lot of eight each deers have a lot of interests and things that we want to commit to and also for women specifically and this is where it nuances for women. We have that two-week period right follicular where we're like we can do everything. So we may over commit to things. So I encourage always look if you're committing to something in two weeks check if that's going to fit your profile. Oh okay. Truly. I will start a business in those two weeks and then like to several multiple businesses. Even this morning I was like I got an idea and she's like oh god. All right this is terrible but like do I need to keep track of this as well. I would encourage and not and obviously like a supportive empowering not like you're going to have to teach because you're very good at this. I've already seen you like be a therapist here like when I was right about the doom piles you were like actually like you would be a great marriage counselor. That's where my need you cancel all your clients. But can I be of use if I start tracking my wife's population? Well first of all if she's okay with it. Okay. It's cool. I'll try to help you. And then also I would I would caution because if you if if I'm like losing my ish and you're like fall that's not what I'm talking today. So let's table like yeah. I think it's just what's going on. Oh it's September the 14th. No that's not what I mean but this is. But if I want to start a business you're right can be like hey let's check in in a week. Or I just keep it internally in here and say oh she's not going to want to do this in two weeks. Why don't I just let it go. I think I think understanding how her capacity could change during that time and understanding it's not necessarily you or that you need to be changing something specifically unless she's specifically asking you change something. Right. Okay. So all right. Okay. Now we're doing couples count. All right. Let's let's do this right now. Okay. So there's the moment that it starts. Yes. Right. So let's let's back time it being the period. The flow. Okay. Well we can just call it. Okay. Sorry. I'm terrified here. menstruation. So the day that the elevator opens from the shining. No sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We will call it charque. Okay. She doesn't actually call that charque. She calls Lodion Phase. You said it, so we'll do shark week. - Okay, shark week, shark week. - Okay, so day one of shark week. When does, when does we should form a business happen? - So interestingly, estrogen is going to start rising significantly enough for your executive functioning to come back online a little bit more around day three or four. - Three or four, three or four, we'll head up. - But continue rising until ovulation. - Abulation happens. - Roughly day 14. And remember, we're talking about a non-parametopausal woman. - Right, so this is going to be a while to track her makeup. - It is fascinating though. So days four through 14 are we should really get into it. - And I'm not bloated anymore. I'm not constipated anymore. I feel good about myself. Let's start a business. - Let's start a second podcast. - You look more attractive. - Yeah, truly. And then let's start a second podcast, which is what I was saying this morning. - And that's four to 14. - Roughly, right, I'm in Jake. I think it would be so fun. - And then put like, then 14 to 30. - It's effing sucks. - That's two whole weeks. - I know, it's not a cliff, but it is. - Your head back down. - Roughly the last 10 days especially. - Yeah. - It's gonna, because ovulation is roughly around two, three days, you know. - I so like 14 to 20, and then 20 to 30 little. - But remember again, when we add parametopausal symptoms into this, it can take longer for there to be enough progesterone and enough of different hormones to activate the next cycle. - Okay. - So this can sometimes, sorry to say this stretch. - Oh yeah, sure. - For months at a time. And you know, I've had this odd question before where people are like, how do I track your mood, track your symptoms, but as simple as possible. A lot of ADHD women, myself included, I don't know how people keep up with their temperature and their this and their that. That's like so much. - The aura ring does a lot, but it's so much tracking this over one way. - It's so much. - Honestly, just put the letter P on my calendar. - Right, when it starts. - Yeah. - But I think having the empathy, the compassion and the awareness allows for a more kind of curiosity of how she's doing versus it being a like who's in the fault, who's who needs to correct. We can just be present. - Yeah. - And just maybe you are okay with changing a plan or waiting until next month to start the business. - It gets tricky however, when we're like committing to things safe for like our kids or something and then we have all these other emotional commitments to what we say. So we just gotta be really careful and gentle. - I love when things are explained by biology. - Okay, go. - Real quick, you allegedly have other patients which is so deeply annoying to me. Where can people find you, find your practice, all the good stuff? - So my practice is kelly-counseling.com, kelly's with an EY. And then my website is ameliakelly.com and that's kind of where you can find meditations, blogs, things like that. And then the WCAT Institute is W-C-A-T.com. - And that's the new one that we're very excited about. - Just came out for clinicians. For clinicians are helping professionals. However, I'm working with the ADHD coaching society to kind of see if we can offer an altered version of WCAT for coaches as well. - Okay. - And it's coming down the pipeline. - Okay, my personal therapist, and I'm trying to get you to fire all your other clients, but you're in your practice. Other people are seeing clients. And you do, obviously you only practice in North Carolina, but you have a coaching, you can do via- - Consultations. - Consultations. - Ameliakelly.com is a great place to go. Tell us about that. - Okay, thank you so much. - Yeah, thanks for having me. (upbeat music) - And seeing Dr. Ameliakelly had to go be a doctor and she had to go see other patients, which again, deeply annoying that she sees other people. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I actually love her as a guest, and I love her as a therapist. And there were several times I was like, about to make it a personal therapy session, but I did such a good job. - I think the whole thing was a personal therapy session, and that's what makes it so great, because I think a lot of women see themselves in you, and a lot of these, like not just symptoms, but just life stories, right? - What I really appreciated was your curiosity and discovery about the impact of a woman's cycle, and Emory brought up something that I think that as women, I think we've missed. - I had a realization watching Penn, what a joy to see you discover the woman's menstrual cycle. - Uh-huh. - And I told Kim, I'm like, I think we've been gatekeeping this from men, because men love stats. - Yes. - They love charts, they call the sports stuff. - No, it's like a box score. - Our uterus could be your sports school. - It could be our box ball team. - Touchdowns, interceptions? Like all of this stuff is happening. It's an explanation, I know that you want limits on this. - I don't want you to weapon, you would not. I do fear that if used widely, there are men who are not as awesome as our husband, who would be like, oh, I'm not gonna take you seriously, 'cause it's two days before your period. I know you wouldn't do that. - Right. - But every 'cause everything I feel at all times is valid. - For me, I was less interested in the day's leading up to it. I think as men, we get the picture. Like those couple of days, that's pretty well known. But the whole, we should start our own country that you're feeling that you have. And if that is cyclical, that's fascinating, especially if it's something that maybe you're not gonna feel in a couple of weeks. - Yeah, and I do feel like women know this about ourselves, but we probably, and by me, I should have, you know what? I was gonna say, I should have done a better job at educating you, but also like you have your own brain and curiosity that you could have learned about this too. So, I'm not putting this on you. I'm just saying I'm not gonna take the weight of this. - Well, our male listeners, if you knew about this, let me know. I will mention you on the show. If you actually, I'd feel that zero men know about this. - No, no, no, no, no. But the meal she eats, that the Raleigh Influen, he did the whole cookbook based on her cycle because that's such an important part of infertility. So, men know about this, especially if there's been an infertility journey. - You think they know about the, like everything that she said? - I think a lot of men do, I think that, - Wow. - And also a lot of men don't. I think there's women who don't know. - And also a lot of, I would love access to this as someone who is, oh yeah. - Highly influenced by Kim saying, I want to start a business or I have an idea. - That's true. - So I think maybe I also should have access. - Well, then you guys also have ideas too. So, I need to know all of. - Oh God, poor Ben. - Are you guys blue? - I really have a fantasy football team. You're tracking. - Yeah. - Anne-Marie and I are a little blue too. - You guys are a little too. - Yeah, we're a little too. - Okay. So. - This is important for me to know. I'm just saying, thank you, Anne-Marie. Thank you for bringing this to life. - I love it. - Okay. - Yeah, okay. - Before we go, I need to bring Sam back in. So Sam, we started off very early in the podcast where I compared Kim, realizing she had ADHD and coming out to someone who's gay coming out. Did I incorrectly appropriate your. - I felt slightly culturally appropriate. - Okay. - No. - I think coming out is for everyone. And I think you did it appropriately as a joyous thing. - It's a joy. - It really was joyous in both cases. I don't know if I ever asked you, what, like, how did, when you actually did come out, did something similar? - Did I get a cake? - Should we get you a cake? - I would love to know if you got a cake. - No, I didn't. I mean, I didn't have a bad coming out, but it was very, like, surprising, I think, to Sam. Not surprising if you see me now, but if you saw me with long hair and makeup, and I dress very girly in high school, and my parents were supportive but surprised. - Yeah. - And I also wanna say, like, you never stop coming out. It's not a one-time deal. I'm being gay and I'm sure it can feel this too, as you make new friends and you meet new people in your life. - Which is so low impact in comparison to what you have to experience, but I don't know why that, like, I've never thought you have to keep coming out. Like, that's so profound. And not to you, but for me hearing that, and I have a lot of empathy. - Something as simple as, like, we're at those events, this I'm with you, and I might say something along the lines of, like, my fiance, she, you know, which is a sentence that rolls off your tongue, like, my husband, my husband, my husband. And there is a moment every time where I'm like, this could go totally wrong. And luckily, I've been in a very luckily situation. Nothing extremely negative has happened to me. I haven't known as, you know, fought me or anything. But it is, it is every time I say something, it's. - In a more minuscule way, you're right. Like, I have to, there's a friend right now and I'm feeling like some rejection sensitivity because I sort of flaked on something and I missed something and I have been texting and she's not replied back. And I'm like, I should probably tell her, like, not, it's not an excuse, but an explanation of like why this event kind of fell off my radar and like, I probably need to do a reveal of some sort. So anyway. - But thank you for sharing that. - Of course. - Yeah. - There's an app. - It has a little one million apps. - What's the app going, why do you want to track more than one woman's cycle? (laughing) - They're like, on the third person, they're gonna be like, the police have been called. They're on their way to your house. - Are you in Utah? (laughing) I hope that was, I feel like we should have Dr. Kelly on more, as long as I'm podcast. Yeah, as you guys are on podcast, I also will have her on more is if I can still keep getting appointments because what happens is I'll recommend something and then like my dance studio and now things are selling out and I'm on a wait list and so I'm like, okay, guys. Let's end this podcast. We'll read the credits by just making sure you guys know not to book an appointment with Dr. Kelly because Kim needs. You should book an appointment. She has a practice in the whole thing anyway. Live Lions is written, produced by Penn Holderness, Kim Holderness and Anne Marie Tapke with live, not live with recorded original music by Penn Holderness. It is live produced by Sam Allen and hosted by Acast. As always, we love to hear from you. So please leave us an email at [email protected] or if you're interested, you can leave us a voice mail on our landline, which is 3, 2, 3, 3, 6, 4, 3, 9, 2, 9, and we will talk to you soon on Laugh Lines. Bye, I love you. You're laughing, gonna screw something up. No, you just add so many extra words and I love it.