Surf park knowledge nuggets with industry vet Jessica Mahoney

[Music] And welcome to the Waypool Mag Podcast. My name is Brian and my guest today is Jessica Mahoney. Industry veteran who's worked with several entities within the Waypool and Cirque Park space. And today we would love to pick her brain as she shares some knowledge with us. So Jessica, welcome to the show. Hi Brian, thank you. Glad to be here. Really, really happy you're here. And I've known you for a few years now, our relationship goes back when you were at ADG. That's right. Yeah. And you guys had just launched Epic Surf, the standing wave. Correct. Yeah. So let's get in. First off, just give some background about yourself where you have worked within the industry and what your experiences are. Yeah, thanks Brian. I appreciate you having me here today and I'm excited to talk to you about surfing and spave pools and where the industry is going. My foray kind of into the industry really started in Water Park World about over decade or so ago. And looking at the evolution, you know, in the Water Park space and where that was going and how that was developing with the guest experience and the branding also worked in the ski industry, launched Mountain Coasters, which was like kind of an inciliary attraction to the ski industries and where they're going. You see the rise and with mountain by gang and all of that. And there's the interesting parallels, right, that have kind of grown out of this that we saw when we first started to launch the Epic Surf when I was with 80Dreet, 80G like you mentioned. And looking at how these destination experiences are growing and where they're going. And it's really interesting when you start to look at, you know, the history of ski and water parks and now with wave pools and the development there and all the opportunities and the learnings across industries. So, you know, having been involved in that area for, you know, so many years and, you know, before that, it's my background is in marketing, right? So I've always done B2C, B2B, across a number of different industries and destination experiences and bringing that together into the forefront here has just been exciting and to watch the evolution grow. Well, that's, it can take us. Yeah, well, it's great to have you on the show because you've had such, you have such a diverse background through the different entities and there's a lot, I know within the surf park space where I'll try and find our footing to where, you know, where do we fit? We're not ski resorts, we're not water parks. Good. I would like to draw on your experience between water parks and the ski industry and where you see surf fitting in, like, where can surfing draw from the water park industry, where can surfing draw from the ski industry and in terms of wave pools. Like, there has to be some areas where the ski industry just nails it and other areas where the water park industry just has it down and which would you pull from each to create a great wave pool? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. If you look back at the evolution between like the ski industry and the amusement park industry, they both started focusing on like their core activity, right, their core skills. So for water parks that was like appealing to families and kids, for the ski industry, obviously, it was appealing to the skiers. And then over the course of years, they realized that this is through, you know, doing marketing research and through just experience and seeing who's come into their parks, how they had to evolve and become these more of a destination thing. So if you look at the ski industry, for example, now it's the year long industry, right, people are going to these mountains, not just in the winter, but also in the summer. And how did they do that? How do they build these experiences, these brands that are going to track people year round? And what was the planning and processing in the years that go into it? And the fortunate thing about the surf industry now is that we can pull from those experiences instead of having to recreate the wheels. You know, we have the benefit now of being able to look back at this 25 30 years of history that are incomparable industries, different experience, but same kind of idea of creating this customer, engaging experiential thing that they want to do, right, whether it's surf ski slide down of water slide, whatever that might be. And how did they evolve and grow in their marketing and their insiliary activities that they continue to build on? Because the customer base keeps changing. And what customers want and your guests want 10 years ago is different than what they want today when they're looking at it. Your demographics are different. Your market is different. The age, you know, people age out and age in and so you've got to talk to them. And so it's building those brands and looking at, you know, I always like to say, like, beyond the edge of the water, right, or beyond the edge of the pool, like, what is happening beyond your core activity that's going to engage your customers and keep them coming back? So, you know, for ski industries, they started advancing into, you know, not just how do we take skiing? That was these core skiers that love to do it, and introducing it to the kids. What do lessons look like? What do camps look like? What do, how do you get parents and kids to go together and the education about all of the skiing and history to get people excited about it and tell the story? And then getting them back there in the summer or additional entertainment to keep them on the property. So maybe your skiing in the morning is their, you know, a bonfire outside in the afternoon that people are sitting around and getting their drinks so that they don't want to leave. And it's almost catering as much to the skier as the non skier, right? So you look in places like resorts out west where there's just as much to do off the trail as there is on the trail. So if you're looking at a surf park, who's coming to your, your wave pool, right? You got the surfer, but then you've got the mom with her kids or the dad taking the younger ones. And what are they doing while, you know, one child is taking a surf lesson or dad is surfing or mom is surfing, and then the other kids are they in a waiting pool? Are they eating? Are they drinking? And I think that's going to be the key thing is to start to look at, to create that engagement because we all know that time on property equals more revenue, right? More spend. So the longer you can keep people there engaged and active, they're going to want to stay and want to come back. Okay. And that's interesting. Those are all really good insights into the industry. And it sounds like it's going that way. I remember, you know, five years ago when surf arcs are still opened, it would just be like, okay, you open it and people will come since then having COVID and so many learnings and you know that the pool is not filled the whole time. Right. So their companies that have done quite a bit to to improve that to to attract people. And you had mentioned some things like having auxiliary, um, entities around the pool for for people to hang out and such. We we've heard it a lot here like, oh, you need, you know, you need to have a nice restaurant, you need to have a casual place, you need to have a, um, AI video system so people can watch their surfing afterwards. Can you think of something either in the ski industry or either in the water park world that does really well to keep people on on site? Yeah. You know, the interesting thing about that sometimes is looking at the mix of the active and passive. Right. So when I'm talking about active, it's you're in this wave pool and you're surfing and that's an hour out of your day, right. People will sign up and you're going to hour and that's it's tiring if you're out there and you're learning or you're experiencing you're catching the waves and you're moving. Then what do we do me offer that's also more passive that people are going to be able to relax and engage and want to stay in the park. So is that a waiting pool? Is that a little, you know, for the kids after they do the surf lesson, then they can go and relax and splash around in a little splash pad with, uh, you know, activities or there's a little many wave four. They shouldn't just go and play, right. What do the lounging areas look like? Are we creating not just tables for people to sit and eat at, but to sit and relax and watch the kids playing and then, you know, they're ordering a drink or they're staying longer so then they're going to stay for maybe dinner or another meal. So it's really finding that balance between active passive and there can be more than one active play attraction. So maybe you've got surfing in the pool, maybe then you've also got, you know, a stand-alone wave, right. So people can go over and try that and that's another activity they sign up for in the afternoon. Maybe there's a wibbit course, you know, one of those inflatable rafts that they're doing out if you've got a lagoon space. Maybe there's boats or activities that you're going on. So whatever that mix is depending on what you're creating, there has to be that balance of what, who are your customers, right. That's the key thing. Who are your core group that's coming? how many kids are you having? What's the surrounding area look like? If you're doing the research as we keep going and that's going to be key and important because things continue to evolve and every surf pool is going to be a little bit different as to who their core demographic is, whether you're urban or if you're out more in the country, north versus south, there's a lot of things that will come into play. But it's knowing and understanding what your consumers want and what's going to track them, what else are you competing against, right? So there's other wave pools, but there's amusement parks down the block, there's golfing, there's so many different things that are going to be pulling people to activities that you have to look at. What's making us not only different surfing, but that's going to keep people wanting to come back more than one time. I think one of the things today is people look and you look at the audience, the younger people going up, they kind of look at checking the thing off of their bucket list, right? Like, okay, surfed, checked, did that, ski, and yep, checked, did that. Is there the dedication to keep wanting to come back over and over again? And how do we appeal to that to get them to want to come in to make that surfing more than just the one check it off your bucket list, but an engagement and an environment that they want to, you know, continue to be a part of and come back for regularly. - Okay, that's great. Those are all good examples. And I have to ask you this from your background in water parks and technology and the surf park industry, is there going from, say, epic surf, ADG to surf-related wave pools? What did you notice? I mean, coming from a water park background and suddenly you're dealing with surfers, was there any kind of, I don't know, culture shock like what's up with these people? Are they, do they want the same things? Or is it an antiquated question and basically a consumer for an experience activity just wants the same thing at its core? - Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there, when I look at it initially, I do think there was a little bit of that hesitancy in the fact that there was, there's a lot of history and pride in surfing, right? And it's a passion sport and the foundation of building these wave pools and this, you know, man-made surfing really came from that core of, we really want to share surfing, right? We want to expand that and we're looking at like these, you know, people who had that and they surfed and now they want to surf in another venue. How do we build that out? But when we're looking at what the business model is and where that's going and how we're gonna make money with these pools, it's really about appealing to the non-surfer, right? That's who's gonna end up being a core part of our business is people who've never had any involvement with surf, who don't live near in the beach, having grown up with that culture and don't have that strong connection to it. How do we build that? So I think there's a little bit of getting past that kind of, no, no, no, we're just we're surfers and that's who we're targeting and that's where we want to get out to to understanding, okay, we may, we're going out with something unique. This is great, just like skiing, right? Was brand new, this was new, this was great, but how do we now expand and reach the rest of the audience? What's our full story? And part of that is gonna be the culture of surfing and how we talk about that and relay that and owning that kind of brand identity that you want to create for your park. And I think the lies are starting to, I don't want to say blur, like a wave pool part, it does not have to be a water park, right? And there's a difference here. You really got a skill based activity that's your core function versus just coming and playing where there's no, you know, you go to a water park, you go down a slide, you go on a wave pool, you go on a lazy river, there's no skill that's involved in that, right? That's just kind of active fun play. Here you're kind of going to purposely learn how to surf or surf and get better or whatever that might be to have that experience. But I think they're starting to understand that just because maybe you add in a small wave pool or a waiting pool or a couple little slides or a splash pad to appeal to people who are not surfing all day or to extend their stay. Okay, that could work. So we're not a water park per se, but what are we? Right, what is this wave pool evolution gonna be and what is this destination gonna be that you're creating? And I think the interesting thing that we're gonna start to see is more of these start to open that they're gonna become like these, you know, a destination. So if you're looking at say the United States, you know, how many surf pools will there be in the next five years or 10 years? And they're gonna start to look at people are gonna say, okay, I wanna go to one of these. I've got five to choose from. So how do I decide? You know, kind of like in the ski industry, you're planning a trip, you're like, do I go to Aspen? Do I go to Jackson Hole? Do I go to Mammoth? Each one of those offers a different experience. They're still skiing at the core, right? That's what it is. It's a ski park, it's a ski mountain. But I'm gonna feel a little bit different environment. There's a little bit different kind of vibe that's going on in all of those. And I think we're gonna start to see that evolved with these wave pools and what they're creating, right? So it's like really awning that brand and being able to tell that story because you're gonna be a destination. 'Cause if I'm gonna fly to Florida or Arizona or Southern California to go in a surf pool, I'm gonna really be looking at what the experience I'm getting at each of those and comparing it. So I think that's kind of one of the things of where it's going. - That's good, that's a very succinct way to bring it all together. I wanted to talk about challenges. You know, that's what we've discussed before. It's kind of like the ideal thing what people can do. What I'd like to know is in your experience, dealing with surf park operators from inception to day to day operations, what do you see as the biggest challenges that owners and operators face? - Yeah, I think you know that it's gonna start kind of from the very beginning and it's when you're putting that development plan together and making sure that you're really thinking ahead 10 years beyond just the technology. Right, there was so much in the last few years about making sure that we have the right technology so that we're creating the waves. And we really see where that has evolved. Right, I know we've got a lot of different options with the different suppliers that in the tech is there. We're creating great waves. You know, you're gonna get that experience. So once you kind of have that core of like, okay, here's the pool I'm choosing, here's what I'm going with. Now it's really about what's the experience that we're creating around it? How are we involving technology? How are we involving our story in our brand? So an example just without for tech, for example, you might have a wave pool and they're creating this experience and maybe it's gonna be all about the future surf and it's high tech and everything that you're doing is going to be tech related while you're there. So you're getting a video, you're gonna be able to watch yourself surfing. You're going to be downloading stuff. You're gonna have a virtual reality aspect to it, maybe before you go on and you know, you can envision yourself surfing with a headset and you go in there and then you get on the wave. There could be so many different options for it. That tech is maybe right in front of your face when you're in the park, right? And that could be a lot that's going on. Then you might have a pool that just says, no way, wait, we're come back unplug, under, you know, we're going back to old school. You're gonna come, no falls, nothing here. You're surfing, you're one with nature in a sense and it's really like down to earth. Doesn't mean there's not tech in the background. That's obviously working for stuff, but you know your experience is very different than this kind of new modern high tech world versus kind of grassroots retro unplugged. So I think when you're developing this type of park, right? You have to think about, what do I want to create? What is that experience? And that goes into the design. It goes into the amenities that you're gonna add to it. It goes into the feel, your story, that you're gonna be telling what your brand is. So the more you can think about that upfront and incorporate that into your vision and into your plan, can help dictate a lot of all that stuff that surrounds that tech and that pool. From the look, the feel, the amenities, even down to like the food and drinks and what you're offering and how they're styled. So there's so much of that that's gonna be really important to create that story and create that identity in the market that's gonna make you stand out not only from the other attractions in your local core market, but from the other wave pools that you're competing against around in the country, right, around all these contest nations. - Yeah. Have you seen that where pools have opened without having, quote unquote, done their homework? And that regards like branding and customer experience once they're in the park and they've had to, I know it's expensive, but go back and adjust things. - Sure. I mean, you see that number of times rate and I know, you know, I hate to say it's relative doing homework. I think it's almost for lack of having, there were so much that you had to focus on and especially when we look at this wave pools, it was about can we operate it and how are we operating our surfing lessons? And there's still a lot to be learned about that. Like what's the best time of data offer beginners versus intermediates and how many sessions of each do we have to offer? And that's one of the challenges that we're still in, right? It's kind of optimal. that and that's a big part of success in this area and how are we running that out? What's the best way to even conduct all of these different lessons and how are we bringing in you know accessibility to different people so that everybody can have access to that and the sustainability issues. So there's so much that is being built out that sometimes this story and this branding and the marketing of it almost kind of slides right and that is something though that I think people do need to go back out. And they do need to look in. They also one of the key things is that the adaptability going forward because as we learn more and do more research things are going to be changing and where you kind of started you can't be afraid to change and say oh okay this was not working in this story and maybe we went too far into serving and. The culture and the why and people in our core market and Ohio here are not really relating how do I shift that and so you can't be afraid of kind of looking at you know your customer dynamics and. Evolving towards where that's going so. Research is always going to be continuously important right you gotta like talk to your customer is you gotta put out some surveys you gotta put out. Getting feedback and making sure that you're responding to that and building what they're looking for so if your customers are asking for like this is great but you know it's super hot here i'm sitting here and a hundred degrees in Arizona and I get an hour in the pool and then. I want to leave because i'm hot if there's not enough shade there's not enough you know spots to go in and cool off or some fans or air can be and we can be as simple as that right wake okay well we need to add a bunch of umbrella and some lounge chair so people can sit and relax while their. In the pool or whatever that might be or so they're encouraged to want to stay here and eat because it's a nice cooling atmosphere and. It doesn't have to be high highly complicated but it's creating that right atmosphere and then. Communicating that through your storytelling through your branding through your social media through your messaging right and through your images to convey that this is the experience you'll have. When you come and visit us beyond just the surfing and beyond the edge of the pool yeah that's that's great and this are all really strong points and. They are are narrative threads that when I do when I talk to a surf park operators and managers that's up there they're in line with that and then even on the industry. So I'm talking to the Priyap people as well let's cut to are there operations that you see today that you really admire like oh wow they've. Done a great job I really like the way they incorporate whatever it is green energy or the use of data in their customer base or their mail or. And you hit us with with an example of something that you see that you really admire in the space yeah well let me let me I'm kind of give you an example from the water park space and stuff in the resort space a little bit we look at that. And compare it so if you look at a brand and I think most people are familiar with like a great wolf lodges right that's really kid young focus that's their core market and where they're going to it's a water park. You look at something like the Mary on the Lord hotels and resource that they've got their water parks that they're building they've got them in Nashville they've got them in Texas it's you know slides. And they've got a lot of experience but it's also very high yet right a very different look different field different environment they've got more like bars and in catering to that adult audience so while at the core their water parks they've got very different stories to tell and where they're going so if you're looking at. And you're on in Australia or you know with the urban surf and what they're kind of creating in their atmosphere and they're doing a great job of now they've got the second park and kind of creating their own identity and brand there and what the experience is going to be and you look at the wave up and breast all right and what they're kind of creating and. And they're getting out there and they're getting really known especially for their you know inclusivity and accessibility and and all of those different things that they're getting food and beverage and their meals and working on like kind of really creating that custom experience with entertainment and so far these do that down in you know in Texas as well. And I think now the next evolution is going to be we've got our core business which is the surfing we've got our food and beverage right because that's going to be really important. And we keep going from here now to keep the people coming back and staying on the property so that we can you know increase our revenue generation increase our our our we need to get more out of the people are core customers that are coming how do we create those clubs and and. And we're going to have a lot of kind of packages or camps that we can continue to develop around surfing that are going to want to keep people coming and growing with that because you're going to get a lot of people I think that are going to come to these. I don't know if they're going to say I want to be a surfer I want to be that's not going to be my lifelong goal to say I'm going to go and surf and do that you will absolutely get some of those people but I would also venture to say you're probably going to get a lot that are going to be like this is fun I want to try this I'll maybe do this once a year couple times a year. If it's a fun place to go back to more often and then they want to people come and visit and they bring their kids or they want to go do a vacation what else is there around there to do and it's just kind of looking at really I think what the business model is and I don't think there's going to be one you know cookie cutter shape you there's going to be that core stuff that you build around like the surfing the food the beverages maybe one or two other key amenities that we're going to find out there may be a big success that they're going to be like almost okay you need to have. The waiting pool that people can go into or just a flat water pool that people can sit around in between their surf sessions that might be a key thing we may find that. Something for like if people are bringing their young children with them to have people who are lessons if you're doing great with like the camps and the mom's are dropping off their you know middle school age kids they got the younger ones with them. Why splash pads are a little waiting waiting full with kids play maybe a key feature that's going to be really helping with your success a little that's going to be research it's going to be demographic based on where you're at and it's really going to be about you know the atmosphere in the vibes that you want to create are you. Targeting families is that who your core is or you really like while you're right outside of a college and you're getting a lot of college students and young adults in 18 to 24 years and that's your core business what are you going to build there to reach. Right and maybe it's a better bar. Okay and so looking at the space now and all the pools that have opened and during your time in the industry having seen some pools go from planning to to breaking ground and you know to the to the grand opening. What do you see happening in space if you were to fast forward to five years from now like how is a wave pool operation. That opens five years from now going to be different from say the first urban surf in Melbourne I think it's yeah I think that you're going to see it opening is more than just the surf pool I think that it's going to be more of a comprehensive experience that's going to have the three or four key. And so there's a lot of opportunities already there when they're starting so you're going to have beyond just the food and beverage whatever that's going to be there's going to be a lot more developed and planned around it because there's the resource there that we're knowing what's succeeding right so where we're seeing that you know technology is going to be a big point right how are we using technology to really personalize experiences and how are we communicating that and that goes down to really more sophisticated marketing and stuff in the beginning and getting that. Message out to individuals different groups and people on how we can start to build that into our planning before we even open the park rate and really starting to drive that you know we know inclusivity is a big thing and we knew sustainability is a big issue right so how do we build that into our brand messages from the beginning and into all of the different aspects that we're creating. With these new destinations and kind of go so these are our topics and things that maybe the pools of yesterday or didn't really think about but you see pools going forward ones in the future like definitely looking at all these all these things yeah I think that the other you know in the beginning it was those issues started coming up and we start and build them into our process into our plans right because we got we got the pool and people are certainly going to be able to do that. We're going to be able to do that in the pool and people are serving and now we started talking about okay we've got to look at inclusive ways to bring other people and we how do we become more sustainable this is a big key proponent we already know that now we know that those key things are important now let's look at you know we're designing a new park how do we incorporate those kinds of things into the design into the plan into our brand story so that we're effectively communicating it and building different ways for that we can. Cater to that so if we're talking about inclusivity and we're looking at creating say changing rooms for people can go in or the prep rooms before you go to your surf session is your way to make it maybe there's a quieter room right so if you've got a population that is very sensitive to the noise and atmosphere and they need to relaxing. kind of space before they can go in, can we add something like that in or some kind of, you know, like a quiet, reprapt room, changing area that may accommodate those kinds of ideas. Do we look at having a different point of access to some pools in order to accommodate people with disabilities? So how does that work? And we can start to look at that in advance and build it into our initial design and really kind of cater to those populations instead of having to think about it afterwards. And it could be even as to like placement of, you know, where are we putting lounge chairs on the types and the types of tables? You know, if we're looking at all bar top tables, do we need to have more lower ones in certain different areas and building different elevations into the parks and, you know, all the, all the compliances that go with it beyond just like the regular ADA compliances, how do we really enhance that in cater to different populations? And, you know, same with sustainability. How are we talking about that maybe throughout the park? So if that's a key issue in the environment, it's not just having recyclable materials and incompostable, you know, bins, but what's the story? Why is it important? Can we do messages about tying in into the ocean and conservation? And maybe that's a key tenant of your brand and your story that you're going out with. And how do we tie that into our social media in advance of even opening? So that we're addressing issues that may come up. So having that knowledge now of these past, you know, a decade of having somebody's pools in and seeing what's advanced, we can really start to address these upfront. Okay, that's really interesting. The where the industry is going. Yeah, that's fantastic. And you bring up really good points. It's funny because at each step where you mentioned something, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's this way. Oh, yeah, that's this other way, because they're all starting. Yes. And they're all, you know, I mean, that's where we're getting a lot of the experience where you see they're doing a great job of listening to their audience and listening to their customers and responding to it and ways and people now who are going out and developing, you want to build these pools. Do your research and learn from what's been happening in that industry. And then also learn from the other industries, you know, how did they evolve from, you know, skiing to appealing to people like, oh, you're around and getting people there for other reasons. And you've got this base, right? You've got a huge body of water. And you've got these great waves is to we open it up to just swimming at times. Is that going to work for your park, right? And you've got a cool atmosphere here. Are you building a beach around it? Or is there going to be, you know, entertainment right on the beach and beach volleyball and big all of who there's so many different ways that you can go. And I think every different venue will find its own niche. You have to, right? You have to have that own brand like you can't just be a copycat of everybody else. You've got to create that because I do really believe that these wave pools are going to become like destination experiences people want to go to. There will not be one necessarily in everybody's backyard because there's land as the limitation, right? There's got to be a feasible market to pull from. There's got to be enough people that are going to track it to make these businesses worth it. So you may be traveling, you know, a hundred miles, a hundred miles, it might be a plane fight in order to go to one of these places, just like you would go out, you know, you live on the east coast skiing on the west is very different if you're skiing, right? Then if you're on the east versus west, very different experience, type of mountains, type of snow, and you're going to see just because they're skiing in my backyard here in New York, I'm still going to go out to Colorado because it's very different. So while I might be able to go into a small little wave pool here, boy, this is a big surf pool and I can go surfing there and that's great. How do I do that? And now there's five to choose from. Well, which one do I go to? I can get out of plane relatively easily to go to any one of these five. Why am I choosing A over B? And it's no different than when you're choosing and planning any other vacation. And I think that's what these developers need to really start to keep in mind, right? So how are we creating this overall entire experience? What's our story? What's our brand and really getting good at doing that? And that's, you see that in any industry as it begins to grow? Is that becomes more and more sophisticated? I'm using all the different tools in there to to do that. Yeah, well, fantastic. And let's before we close out, I would like to hear from you what you're really excited about. What's happening in the space that you're super excited about, where people have learned from the ski industry, from the water park industry. You mentioned resorts like what excites you? You know, I think really what excites me is I, you kind of hit on that where it was like resort innocent. And what is this experience? And I kind of look back to like these adventure, adventure parks. It is one thing that I'll go to and where is the surfing kind of a core thing in that? So I kind of think of these surf wave pools as the core foundation to really building something amazing. So you've got surfing and maybe then you've got like wind surfing or paddle boarding and you've got ropes and rock climbing and zip lining. And how do you build to these amazing destination experiences that are taking things out in nature that people can only do if they have access to the mountains or to the oceans. But now you're bringing it all together and you're creating these like amazing spaces that people can go to like in different places around the world. And you see a lot of this starting to have all right, you look at in the Middle East and you're looking at in different countries and and they're really they've got these developments that are in these planning stages that are just huge and immense and we'll see what happens with all of those. And there's just so many different ways to incorporate what it's going to be appealing to different people. And you know, one of the things that you look at with the advancing technology is his virtual reality, right? That's going to be something that's going to start to I think make a play into all of our experiences like across the board with different activities. And while we look at surfing, you know, how do we how does that come to play? Right? What is that? Is it something that's going to be, hey, you know, you're learning to surf. You may never surf one of these huge barrel waves. Right? Maybe that's just not something that you either have a goal for you don't want to put in the hours the time, but wouldn't that be cool to experience that? And maybe if you experience that before you even decided to go on the surf pool, if you're nervous about surfing, you have a fear with the water, how do we get people engaged and make them comfortable with wanting to try surfing? So can we use this virtual reality, for example, to have their practice jumping up on a board because they're feeling like they're, you know, in an aquatic environment, and they're really got the wave in front of them. And so there's a stage now that we can start to use that technology to help teach people a overcome some fears that they might have to get them to the next level or to even get them in the pool. Right? So there's can be that, you know, evolution of not only just in the water learning, but using technology to help you learn and train like they do in other sports. So that can be a really interesting growth there. That's that that's fantastic. That's the first time I've I've heard of that as being incorporated most people. So we'll get a coach and to the the FOMEs on the Astro Turf and practice your pop up and, you know, or corporate top tarps surfing. So all incredibly analog approaches, but I like the VR approach. That's great. You never know, right? Like there's so much on the horizon that I think it's been very well been to all of that. Continuing to just kind of be aware of where things are going. And if you can stay on the forefront of some of that and you're building that into your brand if you're, hey, we're all about this immersive experiences. We're all about the high tech and kind of being in front of things. If that's part of your story, then this could be a key thing that maybe this is something unique that you're offering that others are not offering yet. Like who's who's going to be doing what first? Well, they're really exciting to see because all this stuff will eventually start to fold its way in and how that's kind of evolving over time. We'll have to see. That's awesome. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us, Jessica, and for sharing your knowledge and sharing your insights across quite a few different industries here. It's been great to have you on the program. Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate your time today. It's been great chatting with you. [Music]