Sunset Limited Sabotage | Who Are the "Sons of the Gestapo" and Did They Derail This Train?

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In the remote Arizona desert, a passenger train barreled through the night carrying over 250 people. The crew had no idea of the danger ahead. Someone had removed 29 railway spikes and shifted the tracks. What followed was a devastating derailment. At the crash site, the discovery of a cryptic manifesto sparked a federal investigation with ties to the Oklahoma City bombing. So, who did this? And why? Today, we investigate the Sunset Limited Sabotage. This is Red Web. Welcome back, Task Force, to another episode of Red Web, the podcast all about unsolved mysteries, true crime, and a sprinkling of the unknown. I'm your resident mystery enthusiast, Trevor Collins, and joining me, hearing this case for the very first time, Alfredo Diaz. Absolutely terrifying. Because this has crossed my mind at some point in my life. Of like, what if someone just did this? And someone did. Like, there's probably hundreds of miles of train tracks. Probably thousands, right? Yeah, and none of it's being monitored. And so, someone could just. Yeah, I'm assuming the. I don't know, maybe the equipment's hard to get a hold of or something. But it's possible, right? Someone really wanted to. Mm-hmm. And someone did. And so, absolutely terrifying that someone could just do that, and then that's it. Done. Right. I mean, let's break it down piece by piece. Thousands of miles, I'm sure, is somewhere accurate for North America, though I wish we had more. I'm putting out the word. I would love me a high-speed rail. After going to Japan, and even seeing the trains in Europe, I'm like, we're in the Stone Ages back here. Plane travel is great. I love me a high-speed rail. Second of all. There are a few ways to monitor some of these remote areas, because you're not wrong. There are remote tracks just way off, like this one in the middle of the desert, where people aren't really seeing it unless the train's going by. You might have people kind of observing it, but there are sensors and track circuits that we're going to talk about that usually, usually keep an eye for certain things of this nature, whether it be another train on the track or if a rail was moved. We'll talk about that because it was manipulated here. Oh, man, because then at that point, there might be, yeah, there might be some coding manipulation or a bit of an inside job, something like that. I didn't know that. I didn't know train tracks had sensors like that. Same. I'll be honest. I keep my eyes to the sky, and I'm a plane guy. But trains are, I mean, they're growing on me, man. They're old school, but they're growing on me. So I learned a lot when we were doing this research for this episode. But, yeah. There's a lot to break down with this one, including, like I said, it really starts to get hairy with how much this ties into other events of that time. Like, this is six months after the Oklahoma City bombing. And so we're not going to get way into the weeds of what that is and what the other events that are referenced in this manifesto, this letter. But, like, we'll get lightly into them because they are huge topics of their own, and maybe someday we'll talk about each of them. But it's wild because we're going to see, you know. It's the year is 1995. You and I are just little drooling children running around in the yards. But this came at such a moment in the zeitgeist where, again, especially because of the Oklahoma City bombing, that it really had the FBI on edge. It had the public on edge. And that is really the lens I want to analyze this topic through because it really guides how we all responded to it. And that really also shifts just how much of an effort went into trying to figure this out. But it is still a cold case. I just it's. Yeah. I mean, like, if someone just, like, did that in the random part of the track, middle of the night and then just left and then never did it again. I just it's. Yeah. dude, how do you, what do you do about that? He's in the middle of the woods just doing that, you know, and then he just disappears and doesn't do it again. Right. That's like the scariest thing is the person with no reason. They have like, they don't have a pattern. They just do one chaotic, dangerous, deadly thing one time. And they're in the wind to come back to your initial thought on that. That is, I think one of the more truly terrifying elements of some of the cases we've covered is that anyone for any reason at any time for whatever reason can just do anything. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's true. And then again, you know, we see sometimes a lot of people get caught because they've done it 10, 20, 30 times. Right. The hubris. And we've talked about it before. It's like, what if they just stopped at nine? They got caught at 10. What if they stopped at nine? What if they stopped at five? You know? And these are sometimes murder cases. And so it's like, okay, this person killed 25 people. What if they just stopped at like 10, just 10 and then just went about living their life. I mean, granted there's a lot of hard coding I would assume going on that brain. And it's not something that's easy to do. But yeah, maybe this person was just, you know, Christopher Nolan's Joker and you just want to watch the world burn. And yeah, man, other motive. He was like, I just, I just want to do this, which is absolutely terrifying. It's truly terrifying. We're going to talk about that. The idea of local militias. We're going to, we're going to talk about the idea of inside jobs where there's a lot to unpack with it. And on the way there, I think, you know, we should unfold the incident and get really into all of that. But before we do, we're at the tail end of July. It's been a hell of a month for us. A lot going on real quick. Last Friday, we did our monthly gameplay. If you like our gameplays, come hang out with us. That's at redwebpod.com. Earlier this month, Christian, Fredo, and Shane all went to a ghost hunt, which on one hand, I have a lot of FOMO about, but on the other hand, it sounds, it sounds like I dodged. I'm seeing a lot of the comments. I dodged a lot of eerie people that you guys really got some. I cannot wait. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of hoping that they, they wouldn't believe anything that's going on because then I go, all right, cool. Like, it's just, you know, weird stuff that is explained there for everyone's sitting here going, I think they got something. I'm like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're all skeptics at heart. We're skeptics. We're with different reactions. Like you're the skeptic. That's like, why mess with it? I'm the skeptic that wants for it to be real. Yeah. Christian is the skeptic. That's like, I'll sit, I'll be way back here though, but it's interesting. And Shane's like, nah, dude, it's real. And I've seen it, you know? So he's not the skeptic, but yeah. So I'm very excited to, to share the debrief. Cause that will be my first reaction. That's coming soon. Um, but if you want any of the extra hours of, of ghost hunting footage, the static cameras, which themselves had some technical, glitches evidence or not head over to red web pod.com. Again, every time we go ghost hunting, we've got hours of extra goodies just for you for supporting us. Now, last order of business. Again, it is the last week of July and this is probably, I don't know. I've loved every single piece of merch we've had Fredo, but the six year anniversary merch hit something special. It was this perfect trifecta of all of us coming together and kind of putting together a collage of ideas and going to our designers, and we have a Mothman graphic tee, a Yokai graphic tee featuring what I'm calling now, the new mascot of the buff scientist, the new Roddy who has a gourd like head. I'm showing it on my camera. Now he was a gourd like head. He sneaks into people's homes and sips on their tea as if he owns the place, kind of sippy cup of knowledge, energy. It really does fit the red web ecosystem because the task force gravitates towards weird, really weird cryptids. Oh yeah. I mean, shout out to our squawks. You know what I mean? Dude coming in, drinking your tea. It's just like task forces would be like, I like that guy. And it's like, of course, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, this, this is our guy. We got squawking. We got a new Roddy. Hewn the big gourd head. I think that means in English translated literally means slippery gourd. So, uh, and he is the Supreme commander of all Yokai of all the monsters. Anyway, I bring this up because, Oh, we also have our minimalist, like, Roku merch and I don't mean the TV, whatever. I mean, Roku as in the, the congee character six, uh, in Japanese future, Trevor here to give you all some quick updates. We just had our huge six year anniversary stream this month on the stream. We crossed off our entire level one stretch goals, which has been phenomenal. So we've got a vinyl coming. We have friends, slop, timber coming, got red web theater, which is a new pilot. where we watch some old public domain movies and react along with you guys. And of course, the Halloween special, A Ghost Hunt, is coming on the way. But Level 2 is now active. And through the end of this month, you can still buy our merch and contribute to these stretch goals or donate. You can go to store.redwebpod.com or donate.redwebpod.com. And just some of those Level 2 stretch goals include a couple of vlogs, Red Web Goes Smutty Part 2, because you guys really enjoyed that video last year. We would love to do a full movie-style gameplay where we take a game of your choice and play it from start to finish in one mega upload. Of course, fan-favorite Red Web Radio Part 3 is on the docket. And then, if we can hit it, the pie in the sky, we would love to do an additional gameplay every single month. You guys have been enjoying those. We really like those. And we'd love to see that get unlocked. But with that said, thank you guys so much for yet another tremendous July. Six years is absolutely wild. And we couldn't have done it without you. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Even if you're just listening, that is incredible. You guys have been so wonderful. Okay, with that said, back to the episode. Business is adjourned. Everyone put your case files away. The manila folder's folded. It's time to dive into the case. If you want some sensitive topics, those will be in the description. But the year is 1995. It's October 9th, somewhere after midnight. The Sunset Limited sabotage refers to the derailment of Amtrak Sunset Limited that happened on this day. Now, there are two locomotives. On this train, you have Amtrak locomotive number 511, and it was in the lead. And number 398, which is attached behind it. Very simply, it sounds kind of unusual, but you would have two locomotives just so the train can go forwards and backwards. And it also gives the train a little extra muscle to move all that weight. Now, the train was bound for Los Angeles, California, and had departed from New Orleans, Louisiana, roughly 1900 miles east, or about 3000 kilometers. Now, the original departure. It was, in fact, from Miami, Florida, kind of going all along the southern border there, the United States. But the train had most recently stopped in New Orleans. What's interesting is this train, actually, with this very same name, still runs to this day. Now, the rest of this journey, like I said, it's heading through the southwest of the United States, kind of roughly near the U.S.-Mexico border. Lots of remote, as you know, Fredo, between here in Texas and California, long stretches of desert, very remote. Very, very desert. Now, in total, the train was carrying 248 passengers and 20 crew members. Around 1 a.m., the train had reached a sparse stretch of desert near Palo Verde, Arizona. This would have been about 50 miles or 80 kilometers west of Phoenix. Now, depending on the source, if you want to get down to the minute, some list this time at 1.20 a.m. I've also seen 1.35 a.m. and roughly anywhere in between. But suffice to say, it's getting late in the night. The train rounds a curve as it approaches a bridge that goes over the Quail Springs Wash. This is essentially a riverbed that is usually just dried up. Sometimes seasonal rain or what have you, it fills with water. But once the train got to the bridge, suddenly, without any warning, it derailed. The passenger cars hung 30 feet off the track, with 8 of the 12 total cars completely derailed. I'll let you take a look at the first video. The first two images I have for you, the source is the FBI and NPR, but you'll see of the eight cars, four of them are hanging off the bridge and into that riverbed about 10 to 15 feet below. Yeah, it's extra diabolical that they chose this specific spot. Yeah, because it has that elevation difference. The rise in that it's a small bridge. But yeah, yeah, it doesn't look like it's super tall or maybe like 20 feet or something. And it's just into dirt. It's nothing crazy. Yeah, not until like a water, not a huge cascading fall or anything like that. It's very small. You just drive a truck under it, if that. Sure, but it's just dirt all under it. You know, they chose this spot probably because there's at least a little bit of elevation as opposed to just flat land. Totally. Yeah, this looks like a terrible scene. It really is dramatic to see a train on its side and bent and angled and down in the riverbed there. I think your observations are really fascinating because you're totally right. It's not a dramatic bridge, but it's also obviously like they focused on this bridge and it makes me think whoever did this. Yeah, intentionally wanted it to be the most dramatic it could be, but also is maybe local because this is a remote Arizona desert. It's not too far from Phoenix, but it's kind of out there. Like, why not a bigger bridge? You know, like these are all questions that start to bubble up. Yeah, because why like this spot, right? If you're going, I don't know the the track, right? But I mean, I'm assuming there could be another place that has that could create even more damage. Could be because it's local. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it could have been someone that's like, I want to cause chaos on a Thursday night, right? And then this was just close to where they were at. They didn't want to put that much effort into it. As crazy as that sounds. I want the train to crash, but I don't want to drive an extra hour or two to get to the big drop. Yeah, or maybe they want it to crash but not be too lethal. Like they want it to be a dramatic derailment, but they're not looking for it to, you know, Looney Tunes go off a cliff or something like that. Yeah, I'm very interested. It's all still a crime, but it's all so bad. But like, what's the motive on this one? You know, right. It's it's kind of yeah, it's like, why would you you you did this on purpose? But did you get lazy to not go a little further out? It kind of raises. Yeah, you're raising some really interesting. Kind of points of view here that kind of like make you really think about who this person is or what they're thinking. Not the right mind, obviously, to do something like this, but all in all, you know, you see the derailment and then you see kind of from the sky there. 78 people were injured in this derailment. 12 of those injuries were labeled as pretty serious. And unfortunately, the incident did result in at least one death, the death of Mitchell Bates, who was an attendant sleeping in a car who died. During, obviously, this accident. So emergency services were immediately deployed but struggled to reach the crash site due to its remote location. Local farmers aided in rescue services by clearing off the back roads, trying to make it easier for anybody to get to this location. I mean, obviously, there's a railway going through here, but that doesn't mean that there's just roads that go right up to this spot. So I do appreciate, even though it's past midnight, that locals are rising to the occasion, trying to. Clear off any brush or only, you know, some of these back roads just to get people out there. But it would be a full 45 minutes before the first responders were finally able to arrive at the scene, which all things considered is actually still quite good. Those who could emerge safely began to rescue other people who were still trapped in these overturned cars. And this is when, you know, first responders get to the location and nearby pinned down under a rock is a typewritten note. Yeah, all right. I was not expecting a message here. Interesting typewritten notes. Is there somewhere visible along this track here? It must have just been out in the open because it caught the eye of one of the passengers, basically, as they were all helping each other. You have a man named Neil Halford who just sees this letter held down by some rocks and it stands out to him and he goes and checks it out. And I'm going to read you what this letter says, because I think. Not that I want to voice or platform someone's manifesto, but I think it will give us some idea as to the thinking going on and it will really narrow the scope of the investigation into certain directions. That being said, I also want you to put on your cynic hat and and think about this as maybe is this a misdirect? These are all things we'll talk about. But here it goes, quote, indictment of the ATF and FBI. Before dawn, the women awoke to say their morning prayers. The women slept upstairs. They lit their kerosene lamps because the electricity had been turned off by the FBI. After observing lights in all the upstairs windows, the FBI ordered the tear gas bombardment. Afterwards, only two upstairs windows were lit. The location of each was recorded. Over the next few hours, ventilation holes were poked in the walls. These holes made the fire burn very much faster. Otherwise, the fire department would have had time to put it out. The fire before the women and children died in the flames. At noon, the light from the two kerosene lamps was obscured by a bright sunlight. Everyone had forgotten about them except the man who carried their locations written on a scrap of paper in his pocket. He ordered the tank drivers where to crash through. Guess under which two windows he ordered them to raise their guns as they backed out. The guns were lowered. The videotape shows clearly the floor being raised. The fire was heard by word unintelligible a foot and a half. Guess what happened to the kerosene lamps in, word unintelligible, rooms above the tanks? A minute afterwards, black smoke started to pour out of the windows where the lamps had burned. This is the normal time needed for a kerosene fire to build up. Who is policing the ATF, FBI, state troopers, county sheriffs, and local police? What federal law enforcement agency investigates each and every chokehold killing committed by a police officer? police officer. Each and every beating of a drunk, whether or not a passer-by videotapes it. Each and every shooting of a police officer's wife who knows too much about drug kickbacks. Each and every killing at Ruby Ridge. The Gestapo accounts to no one. This is not Nazi Germany. All these people had rights. It is time for an independent federal agency to police the law enforcement agencies and other government employees. Signed, Sons of the Gestapo. S.O.G. End quote. So they're trying to make a statement. If this is not a distraction. Lots to unpack with this. There's a lot. I mean, it seems like it's maybe a revenge plot. Maybe there's some injustice that they're trying to bring to light. I will say again, these are there's at least one topic very specifically referenced here. And I'm going to get more into the details in the theories. But essentially, they're referring specifically to the 1993 Waco siege in which, again, I won't be able to do that topic. It's proper justice because it would be a full episode on its own task force. I deeply encourage you to go take a look at that if you want to know more about it. But again, I'll give you all the context you need for that as we discuss the first theory. But that's what they're talking about when they talk about the kerosene lamps, tanks crushing through the walls, raising the gun to increase the damage, increasing the breathability of the fire. So they burn. So people die rather than be killed. So they're referring specifically to the 1993 Waco siege in which, again, being able to be saved, et cetera. All of these things are heightened emotional descriptors of events that happened during that siege. And so they're basically calling into question the government, the ATF being the government agency that stands for Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. They're also calling into question the FBI. But of course, then they throw it out to all authority, whether it be police, sheriffs, state troopers, all of that. And so that's kind of that. It seems to be their MO, or at least their motive here. That being said, my initial reaction is a little bit of confusion. I understand the heated emotion here, but why a train of innocent passengers? You know, was there somebody on this train? And Task Force, you might have to help us out here too. And Fredo, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts. But when I start to unpack the idea, the name of this group or this individual, it says Sons of the Gestapo. Now, obviously the Gestapo is the secret state police of Nazi Germany. And if they're so anti-government or anti-authority, you know, Gestapo would be kind of an insult to be thrown at authority. It's weird that they're saying that they're the sons of the Gestapo, but also this isn't Nazi Germany. I start to get lost in the weeds of the name there. Like, yeah, just like the meaning and how it connects. And unless they're saying like the government is essentially the Gestapo, they account for nobody. You know, this isn't Nazi Germany, so they should account to something. And we're the sons, i.e. the byproduct of this government or this police force. That's the only meaning I can kind of shove into that. But I don't know. Again, lots to unpack there. A lot to read. You know, you climb out of a train that just derailed and you're like, so what was this on a damn scroll? Right. Honestly. I think about it because I'm like, right, because I'm sitting here. I'm like, wait a minute. This is going. Oh, this is still going. Oh, they're they're telling a whole story. Like, what's this typed out? Like, what the hell? It was a whole entire short story. Right. Right. You know, it was like a CVS receipt of like you buy one pack of gum, you get three feet of paper. Yeah. A lot. Again, a lot to unpack there. And again, I'm not trying to like platform somebody's voice. You know, obviously, whoever this is is very problematic. And the decision they made to derail an innocent, you know, a train of innocent people is is horrendous. But I read it mainly because a few things. One, there were three other notes of this kind identical found at the scene. So there's four of these found. But no scans, no images of these notes were ever released publicly. And so it's not like you can I guess you could go off and find this typed up on the Internet, obviously, but for the sake of like bringing it all into one confined conversation. But yeah, I think this is it's the only real insight we gain into this person. And it's the only it's the only like real start we have on an investigation. Tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college. That's why she shops at BJ's Wholesale Club, saving up to 25% off grocery store prices, beef jerky, microwave meals, laundry pods, even they can't screw up. Have you met my kids? And with BJ's gas, she gets there for less. They call me the road warrior. This is your home, road warrior mom. Home of the save. Join for just $20. $20 at BJ's dot com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's home of the save. I wrote a little song to remind you choice hotels get you more of the experiences you value. The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar, have a ball. Cocktails up here feel just right. It's Cambria amazing. Bring a date, your team, or even your mom. Book direct at choicehotels.com. See you on the roof. So, of course, the train derails. It's dramatic. But then they see this anti-FBI, anti-ATF, like, very inflammatory letter. And because of this, and because of everything that's going on in the world or in the United States at this moment, the FBI launches a full investigation into this incident, but not in some sort of minor way. I mean, they. They. I'll talk more about this, but they pull 90 agents off the Oklahoma City bombing case. And so there are, like, you know, ties into the Oklahoma City bombing. And. And again, that's. This is a whole other case, but there are some flimsy ties to a radical group within that topic that start to show up here. So anyway, I don't want to get lost in the weeds, but. So they pull 90 agents, I think is the main thing to say here, to look into this. And they found that the derailment of the train must have. It must have been caused by someone who had an in-depth knowledge of the railway system. So first, before we dive into that, I want to show you images C. I've got two more images for you here. And this is just shots posted by NPR of agents on the scene. It gives you a little bit better idea of the scale, too, because you see them measuring things out, checking on things. Yeah, they have to do a whole full report. Mm-hmm. I'm surprised only one person passed. It could have been. Right. So much more tragic. Yeah. It's a bitter comfort, I think. Yeah. Some of the people at the scene. Yeah, there's the measuring of the tapes. It looks like they're just, you know, taking notes and documenting what they can. Yeah. Like, how did this happen? What's going on? Yeah. We'll get in the lay of the land. Now, this is when they found out, you know, looking at the tracks, that on the bridge, 29 rail spikes had been removed. And the left rail had been shifted nearly four inches inward, which would have been. Easily enough for a train that has a rigid wheelbase to derail. Right. You're just basically dropping the left rail out from under it. And because of that, the train then tips off to the left and down into the ravine it goes. Obviously, rail spikes are used to just kind of hold those rails in place. Yeah. But four inches, and it's just like, it just throws, derails it. It's smaller than I expected it to be. It's all they needed. Yeah. I mean, it's very rigid. It's very just like, you know, there's no fluidity to those. At all. So. I will say, this is just me geeking out a little bit on my. What I do know about trains is, I believe their wheels are cambered inward. They're slanted. I always thought that that was just like, you know, like rubber hits the road. You have a flat tire that hits flat street. Right. I thought the same, too. I didn't know they were canted. Yeah. It's so that way when they take the turns, the train kind of self-centers itself. So it kind of swings a little bit because the. It's sat on two inwardly slanted or maybe outwardly slanted. Utterly slanted metal wheels. And so it's not like a normal wheel. It's like if your tires were like angled or whatever. So bigger on the inside, smaller on the outside. So it kind of self-centers. Interesting. Trains are fascinating. Just old engineering is fantastic. I didn't know that. So whoever this was, though, I mean, they had the hardware, the equipment to rip up 29 railway spikes. And then somehow. Somehow move the rail, like kind of wedge it or pull it about, you know, just shy of four inches inward, which is, which is, I mean, either a team did this or someone who was well-equipped, right? Now, what's further interesting and really helped investigators at this time, though it is still a cold case, another train had come through this exact stretch of tracks just 18 hours prior. And so we know whoever did this couldn't have been too far away. You know, they could have been maybe an 18-hour drive. Somewhere else, but basically, whoever did this either was specifically targeting this train or just so happened to sabotage the tracks somewhere in this window. So we know that they were in the area at least earlier that day. On top of that, whoever did this was incredibly clever because they knew how to damage the tracks without sending any warning signals back to the train's crew. So this is where the idea of the track circuit comes in, because when they wedge that rail out of alignment. This would have broken the track circuit. So the track circuit is a simple way to determine if a train is on the tracks ahead. But by breaking the electrical circuit, any approaching trains would have also had a red warning signal implying either the presence of a train ahead or that there was a rail issue. So what they did was they actually jumped. They used a household orange electrical wire to bypass the train's track circuit. So that way, by breaking the circuit, bending the rail, it wouldn't show the train that's coming, hey, something's wrong ahead, slow down or come to a stop. Instead, they bypassed it, which completed the circuit again. And so that way, the train that's coming sees a green light. Okay, all is clear ahead. So yeah, so someone that was just knowledgeable. Yeah, so they knew. That's not easy to do. I would have no idea. I would have, you know, they would have stopped that train instantly. Right, I would have no idea. So basically, they charge up the electrical rail, in certain segments, and then they complete a circuit. And when that circuit is like uninterrupted, unimpeded by a train or what have you, there is a device that can measure that circuit. But when a train comes on, the rail, the wheels short circuit it, which prevent the signal from going all the way to that detection box. And then it turns red. So yeah, they bypass that, which is wild. How many inches does it take to derail a train? Is it four? Just curious. I would say just enough to be the width of a railway, like a train wheel. Let me see. So that'd be just from, you know, random knowledge of like, that would be crazy if they knew that too. They were that precise with, you know, an intimate with the system, how it works. Ooh, yeah. Like the minimum viable. Yeah, they're like, all I need is four inches. They knew like the four was it, or they were just like, I'm just going to move it. Okay. So this is just a very quick Googling. I think different trains and different rails probably have different details, but it seems like a track only needs to be about one to one and a half inches wider to trigger the risk of a derailment. And so I'm wondering, is it one or two inches on both sides? So it'd be like two to three inches, basically enough for that wheel to not be able to stay on the track, right? And so I think it comes down to the width of a train tire or a train wheel, and that's all you need. And so by going nearly four inches, it was like way past the idea of risk and confirmed. Like this is just enough to for sure. Yeah. I mean, if you're saying one to two is like the risk of, he's like, just double it. Yeah, just double it. Just double it. And we should be in the green as well. So the FBI investigators attempted to look into whatever, this Sons of Gestapo was. They came up completely empty. There had been no previous activity claimed by any group with that name. And there's no evidence of a group with this name existing at all. Of course, there always has to be a first thing. So maybe this was the first and maybe only time that this group or individual had this name. But there's also the idea that maybe somebody just threw this name out there to be inflammatory, incendiary, and they themselves are just some sort of anarchist. Who knows? So, of course, this would be the first and only time the FBI or anybody would hear of the SOG. No evidence of the group was ever discovered and they've never been heard from again. Which is kind of all we have for the incident and some of the investigation. You know, the theories is where we'll start to unpack a lot more information. But I'm really curious of your thoughts here. I mean, I see why this case is unsolved. They mess with the train tracks, left the. letter, a statement, whatever, however, whatever their intention was, and then just didn't pop up ever again. There was no other train incident a week later. There was no other letter sent in, et cetera. They just, they dipped into the shadows never to be seen again. It's like, what do you do? How do you find that, right? There's no pattern for the FBI to try and figure out. Like, yeah, just gone. Yep. I don't know. Like, what is the, what is, you know what I mean? Like, what is the reasoning for this? That's the thing, man. I don't think we'll ever find out, but what causes someone, is it a bad day? Like. I mean, you want to talk joke or it's, sometimes that's what it is. Right. All it takes is one bad day to really spiral someone off. And that, I mean, that truly is a terrifying thought. But yeah, dude, I don't know. And I think that's the most haunting element of this case is like, there's almost, almost, and this is such like, again, cold comfort. There's almost comfort in the idea of, knowing that, okay, well, at least they were after something, right? With this letter. But if this letter is just a red herring, that's where it really gets sinister. That's where it really starts to feel, as I haven't said in a long time, nefarious. Because it's, it, there's no motive. There's no reason. It's just random chaos. And they never did it again. Like, how do you, you can't predict that. You can't defend against that. Like, that's insane. Really, yeah. I didn't mention. I, I, there's a lot of like little breadcrumbs, you know, I kind of moved over. One of the things before we dive into the theories that stood out to me is that they couldn't find footprints or like tire tracks nearby. And so there are some fringe theories that are like somebody halo jumped in and then, you know, like got ripped back out from the sky, like, or helicoptered in or something. That's a little wild. It does get wild. But they're like, how, how, who was this person or this group that, that treaded on through the sands of the desert, popped up a 29, like deeply mounted railway spikes, bent this rail in and then left. 'Cause it takes some heavy equipment. How are you getting that out there? - I was about to say, how heavy is the equipment? - I don't know, honestly. Like, could you do it with just like a really strong arm and like a, some sort of lever device, like a heck of a crowbar? - A specific crowbar or something like that? - Yeah. - You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't know. - Yeah. I really don't know. But one of the theories relies on the idea of heavy equipment and this is coming from the FBI. So using that idea, how did whoever this was get there, do this, disappear, no witnesses, inside knowledge, and left like no trail? - Yeah. See that part is tricky too. There's no trail because you look at the images, it's like desert, it's like dirt and sand. And so you think that equipment would be sizable, so they have to drive it in. - Mm-hmm. - But even if it was just him and one little tool he carried on and use with one hand, it's like, okay, where are the footprints? - Right. - I don't know. Was he just super cautious and then just, you know, I don't know, just covering up his tracks, walking backwards or something like, you know, I don't know. - Yeah. - Like what was, what happened there that? - Yeah. Was this like Timothee Chalamet doing that sand walk? - Yeah. - To prevent the dune lizards or the dune worms? Just coming up? - Some kind of intricate walk or half step. That was it going on. Was he walking and then like stepping on his hands while he was walking? Like, I don't. - Oh, I see. - He should do that. I think ninjas did that in order to silence their footsteps. - Whoa. - Yeah. - Interesting. - They'd walk on their hands. - They'd walk on their hands, like four, like four-legged or like handstand? - No, just like two. They'd have like their hands like on the ground and they'd put it, like I said, like a step forward and they'd put their foot on that hand to like silence their steps. - Whoa, I didn't know that. - On like floorboards and stuff like that as they were moving. - Oh, that's wild. Yeah, dude, a ninja shows up, derails a train and disappears? - Even bigger mystery. But it's just like, what, like how do you not have, I don't know, like was, is the weather windy enough to blow away the tracks? Like is? - Ooh, is, yeah, maybe. - Is that a thing? Was there, was it raining or like? - I don't know. Did the weather help? Was the weather, did you time it with the weather? I was, so many unanswered questions. - Could a child have done this? You know, someone under 50 pounds. - I'm gonna say no on that one. - Okay, okay. One more theory before we get back into serious. - Came in on a Tonka truck. - Yeah, he drove his little Tonka engine out there and they thought, couldn't be a kid's toy that did this. This must be something else. All right, one more wild theory before we get serious. What if, okay, you know like a standard broom with the bristles down at the end. Throw away the stick. You just have two broom bristles now. Tape those to the back of your calves. So now they're dragging at your heels. You're brushing up your steps as you go. Do you think that could work? - I mean, honestly, there might be something that you can Google now that is just like, you can buy to cover your tracks or something like that. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, in a more serious way. Like what if, I mean, could you, would they know if somebody drove out there and dragged chains behind them to like, disturb the dirt and hide their, or would that leave its own trail? - Probably would. Yeah, I don't know. We're not, no, we're not trackers. So I just don't know. - Yeah, I'm not Aragorn. I can't get down there, taste the dirt and know where they went, you know? - Yeah, feel the rumble. - Yeah. There's a four-wheeler five miles from here going south. And what's wild is, I didn't even think about this, but truly the border is not too far south of there it's possible that whoever did this popped the train rail knowing the schedule of the tracks and then was maybe across the border before dinner time even yeah there's that 18 hour window between the train that went by and this one and this one that's a huge window you know all right well let's get back to the conversation at hand and some of the more serious theories because of course after this accident there were several theories that were swirling around about who the sons of gestapo might be and given the contents of the letter and the criticisms of the fbi the atf and how they handled the situation in waco some feared that this was the work of an anti-government group performing an act of domestic terrorism in particular the letter seemed to focus heavily on the burning of mount carmel center this was the fiery and fatal end of the 1993 waco siege and again not doing it justice but just to catch you all up uh with like a cliff notes here the waco siege was a deadly 51 day standoff between federal law enforcement and an armed religious sect called the branch davidians that culminated in a catastrophic fire and i believe upwards of 80 to 90 people died it's a lot but that's that's what really was leading the theories at the time especially because the derailment occurred six months after the oklahoma city bombing and this gives more context as to why the fbi and the public were panicking so much about domestic militia attacks again not doing that whole topic justice either but within the confines of that subject you know there's the idea of the aryan republican army and its potential ties to uh the oklahoma city bombing etc basically just table setting here maybe someday we'll dive into that one but again 90 agents pulled from the oklahoma city bombing case to focus on the sunset limited sabotage now at the time arizona was home to several active militia making this theory a little bit more plausible additionally derailment was not something unusual for militia for example in 1994 the militia of montana put a catalog that advertised a book called the road back and in this book they detailed a derailment plan so it's kind of like it was in the minds of some of the militias in the in the u.s but this particular plan involved explosives rather than kind of deconstructing the railway in particular so while several specific groups were investigated such as the ftra the freight train riders of america and the violent and problematic aryan republican army the ara doubts began to arise they they're looking closer into this theory and suffice to say that nothing is really tying together neatly yeah and so like you know we're like we're mentioning was it a diversion it's possible it's very possible so kind of like thinking at the time the fba is like well first off you know none of these militia groups were found with a relation to the phrase or the name sons of gestapo there's no ties to that anywhere there's no iconography there's no secret memos tumbling around in the back rooms of these of these militias that kind of point to this name additionally no surrounding militias had heard of this name and my gut instinct is well people can lie but yeah but no one it seems like this this name is almost a ghost on the page again also i'm kind of confused because gestapo is usually a term for extremists used for the government so sons of gestapo makes kind of little sense as an anti-government group but again maybe i'm missing their their metaphor here ultimately like i said doubts arose that an ordinary militia man or other group activists would have the knowledge to pull off a detailed derailment of this kind you know when we're outlaying it here fredo it sounds pretty simple but i like you said i wouldn't have had the knowledge to do all this it sounds simple when you describe it to me yeah but to do it to have the knowledge that's where it kind of points to the idea you know of an inside job and that's what the fbi is thinking at this point they're moving away from this idea of a domestic group and more towards the idea of an inside man or an inside hit who is that and what's the motivation tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at bj's wholesale club saving up to 25 off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with bj's gas she gets there for less they call me the road warrior this is your home road warrior mom home of the save join for just twenty dollars at bj's dot com slash mesquite and save ten cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save audio ads that connect display ads that stand out run them together on spotify and unlock incremental reach for your campaign so let's ask the question was this an inside job some began to think that the derailment was something personal either with amtrak with the sunset limited or somebody on the train for whatever reason and to build on that motive people began to look into a recently reported video of a man who was on the train and he was on the train and he was on the train and he reported announcement from Amtrak stating that they would end direct service on the 90 mile branch line, which happened to include the stretch of Arizona desert that this train derailed. So people are starting to go, okay, well, if Amtrak is going to shut down this line, maybe this is a revenge plot. Somebody that's working on this section of line might've thought, well, I'm going to be out of a job, so I'm going to get back at them by derailing one of their trains. However, this is such a small closure that whoever was working on this section of line would likely move to a different area. It wouldn't be job threatening. It probably wouldn't be enough to derail a train in such a dramatic fashion. And also Amtrak had postponed this change because of other pending shifts in the industry. So it wasn't even set in stone that this was going to happen. But with the idea of an inside job starting to peter out, people began turning their attention to other strange happenings. So this is where there's a few other odds and ends I didn't discuss earlier. There was a brush fire not too far away. It was kind of near a wooden railroad bridge. And so it was threatening that bridge too. And it was near the derailment site. It was in Hyder, Arizona. Meanwhile, a stick of dynamite was found in the men's restroom of an Exxon gas station that was also nearby the derailment. And so it's hard to know if these were associated with this derailment, if these were misdirects. I mean, if they're saying there were a group, maybe they had all kinds of different. Solutions. Oh, this does tie back to the militia derailment plan with explosives. You know, unless a guy, you know, Huck Johnson's on the crew and he's like, we're the sons of Gestapo, we're going to derail this train. And Jimmy's like, Guy, we're just going to move the rail. That's it. Put your explosive away. Right. But then on the way home, Huck's like, I got I got to go. They stop at the gas station. And for whatever reason, he forgets his dynamite there. You know. People forget everything. The brush fire. Could be natural. Yeah. But the fact that it was near a wooden railway bridge is interesting. And also, like, how often do you find a stick of dynamite in the bathroom? Yeah. And it just it just pairs with railroad tracks. It wasn't like C4 or anything like that. I'm just like dynamite, a stick of dynamite. Right. It's like, what is this, 1862? Right. And so, yeah, I don't know. It wasn't something more advanced. Like, again, like C4. And so, I mean, I don't think it's too far of a stretch that made me think that there was multiple different ideas on how to derail the train. Yeah. But then they probably settled with the one that didn't tamper again with the sensors, you know? Right. Right. Explosive would have definitely been a lot more catastrophic, maybe resulted in the same thing, but kind of then makes me go, OK, well, yeah, they want it to derail and look dramatic. But not be deadly. Like, whereas an explosive would obviously be deadly. Like, it just raises so many questions. It's just so intriguing. And it makes me think maybe they roped up a couple of Mavericks and that's how they got out there, because I don't know what the FBI go. There's horse tracks here because I don't know. Are there are there wild horses in Arizona? Like, I'm just my brain is just going wild now with all these like possible thoughts. Yeah. OK, so we have a few more now. Chaotic, but intriguing clues. And so investigators are starting to go, OK, well, we don't think it's a group. It could be an inside guy because just the knowledge of bypassing the track circuit, et cetera. But now they're thinking, OK, well, maybe if we think about it, maybe it's maybe it's a lone anarchist. Right. And this is something that you've kind of talked about terrifying, just chaotic energy anarchist. They never gathered enough evidence to make an arrest, though there was one specific suspect that they did. And so they're trying to find out who it was. Innocent or not, he does remain the case's most prominent named suspect. Interesting. A salvage company. So it does seem like he would have the knowledge. Right, to take things apart because that's, you know. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay. Maybe this is that Zodiac moment where we're like, we got the guy, but then just we couldn't pin him because the evidence was just dwindled, you know? Yeah. Or maybe it's just a regular dude. I don't know. But now comes something where kind of following that line of like, someone doing this randomly, here comes an equally terrifying idea. Okay, so one week prior to the derailment, there was a railroad-focused magazine called the SP Train Line. In that magazine, they published an article about the 1939 train crash. So in this crash, there was a train named the City of San Francisco, and it derailed in a remote Nevada desert, killing 24 and injuring 124. And that train was a train with 121 passengers and crew. Now, the crashes are eerily similar. Okay, so this happened 50 years prior. Both trains were derailed as they crossed over a bridge, over a river, in a remote area, creating the most dangerous accident far from help. The 1939 crash was also an obvious act of sabotage because 24 rail spikes had been removed and the tracks were deliberately shifted to cause the derailment. And the saboteur also used. a wire to bypass the track's circuit warning system, just like in this case. Now, unlike our current case, this one, they then painted the tracks brown and put tumbleweed over them to kind of camouflage it. So even when they had imminent threat that they were approaching it, even though it was like 9:30 PM at night for this accident, the conductor would still probably not be able to see the track was manipulated and they would hit that spot on the rails and, you know, the derailment happened. Now, despite the 24 deaths and many injured, no one was ever found guilty or arrested for this terrible accident. And so comes the theory. Was this just a random copycat that happened to read this magazine about this 1939 train crash and decide, for whatever reason, that they wanted to do the same thing? I mean, there are copycats. We talk about that, you know, people inspire people. All the time, even in the worst ways, I guess it could have been. I mean, it's so eerily similar. It's very similar. I don't think it's the same person. 50 years apart is massive. Only they were doing this in their eighties. Right. We don't have a like an octogenarian sabotaging the rail. And so I think I would cross that out. But yeah, I could be inspired. Yeah, because it's not something that is super common. So when you do it, everyone's going to be like, oh, my God, it's just like this. Right. Truly. Yeah, because there is sometimes there is a bit of narcissism when it comes to these things, but not so much with this one, though, because they kind of just vanished. They didn't put another letter. They weren't consistently sending things to the FBI, stuff like that. So mm hmm. Very limited taunting. Oh, never came back around. I don't know. You know, I mean, yeah, this was so weird, man. It's really weird. It was a very. Very targeted thing. And then never done again. It could be as much as like they did in a fit of rage and then now they have regrets. You know, I don't. And then never did it again. I do appreciate the investigation, though, because somehow they found out about this article. I don't know if this is, you know, aggravating or what have you, because this magazine, I thought when we were looking into this, that this was like, oh, you know, it's like New York Times or. The Post or, you know, just a magazine that people those are newspapers, but a magazine that people have. And it turns out there's only 2000 subscribers to this magazine. And so immediately that's an investigatable pool of people, especially when authorities narrow it down. They look at the subscribers that are in Arizona specifically would have had the locale. There's only 30 people in Arizona that have a subscription to this magazine and are in Arizona. And so this would seemingly give us a great way to dial in on a potential copycat. Anarchist. But authorities did investigate each and every one of these people. They interviewed all 30 subscribers, but there was not any substantial evidence. There was no further leads. Ultimately, all trails went cold. I mean, they even investigated the author of the article, John Siner, and he had an alibi. It feels like that's like we got so close. That was such a clever, like whoever did this, it felt so clean. But then just this moment felt like we got so close, but it didn't hit, you know? Like that's what it is though. You know, you, you grasp at straws and sometimes some are longer than others and it's not the right one. Man. I just, I love it when something's so peculiar like this can nail down somebody who otherwise they were a ghost, you know? That's true. Cause it's just so specific. Yeah. So I was really hopeful that this would turn into something that this would get somebody, but um, ah, man. I mean, I think the FBI felt the same way because as this case unfolded when it first happened, their public announcements are like, Hey, we're confident we're going to be able to figure this out in a month, maybe a few weeks, even don't worry, we're on top of this. We're going to get this done. We're going to find the saboteurs. But of course, as time goes on, there's no leads are showing up. No new clues. The case is cold and it remains unsolved to this day. And it's such a prominent one in the FBI's history. Yeah. So the FBI is now looking at this case and they're like, well, we're going to get this done. it and just disappeared again no dude you wanted that that's true 29 spikes is a lot you're you're going to town on that you know on that rail it wasn't like in the moment right like a flash moment decision like the discharge of a firearm or anything like that this was this was you are physically working yeah you're working on the railroad all the live long day yeah and you're consistently reminding yourself like yeah i'm doing this yeah dude i think that's what makes this so haunting the almost randomness of it the lack of motive even if you do take the letter at face value the fact that they just like disappeared out there the fact that they clearly really wanted it yeah whether it was a person or a group man oh i don't know and then it just just gone that's it nothing else like did did you get what you wanted was you know this was this a revenge thing and you got your revenge like right i don't know normally i would just move on and end the episode i'm just circling the wagon here because i'm just i'm so it's such an interesting case like a ghost like a ghost task force i'm so curious if you want on our discord channel available at redwebpod.com we every single episode post a thread where we love to see and read your your theories because sometimes you guys put some clues together that we don't even think about when we're pulling the investigation together or maybe that wasn't even investigated at the time so if you have some thoughts even if it's just a comment on this episode you can comment kind of wherever you listen to this let us know i'm really curious i'm going to be reading some of those to see if uh i don't know man because i'm just i don't like most of the cases we do are unsolved i mean it's it's part of the the whole format here but i don't like the randomness of it you know that i think it just sits so awkwardly with me it does it's just a weird feeling of a case any old train you hop on could just get you in the car and you're like oh my god just go off it goes nah dude oh man yeah then there's that at its core nah this is like before the you know i guess like a larger boom of the internet and all the information being readily available at your hands yep so this person knew some stuff and they wanted this done for whatever reason all right task force thank you all so much for joining us i want to give some shout outs our newest task force member joining us is the nerdy lab girl welcome you'll fit right in you're right in we got all sorts of scientists no lab for you my no no oh we don't have a single lab we got a clean room but we don't go in there that's why it stays clean in fact actually if you look into it just more desks there's more desks yeah there's more desks welcome well you know we'll get you your badge and everyone's got their own code access code so we'll be sending that to you by way of fax machine uh our buff scientist of the week tyler diamond thank you so much and then of course our a illustrious squonks we got low k neo trickster dakota just to name a few you guys are wonderful thank you all so much and uh and yeah come get that merch the month is ending it's coming here it is there's well here's one of them anyway this is rock some cool merch support our little you know independent business here yeah oh i also you know what we record these ahead task force this is something i should have mentioned by now you'll all be aware that we have our mystery tour shirt available now as well it is a secret and it's available only for our patreon members that's right it's our first exclusive uh patreon shirt and it will stay up for forever so you can get that whenever your heart desires but yeah anyway fredo with that said see you right back here next monday for yet another mystery so hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save