Summer Series 2.0 Part 5 with Kyle Raftis

(upbeat music) - Regressing to the meat since 2050. It's the hockey epidemiocast with your host, Demetri Philipovich. - Welcome to the hockey epidemiocast. My name is Demetri Philipovich and joining me is my good buddy, John Mattis, John, what's going on, man? - Not a whole lot. We got a special guest today keeping that summer series going. Another interview with someone inside the game, so I suppose let's get to it. - Yeah, the summer series rolls on. I feel like at this point, we really are stretching the definition of the summer's part, summer part. At the very least, we're into September hockey season is here, preseason starting in a couple of weeks. We've had Scott Wedgeron for the player perspective recently. We had Dan Muson for the coach's perspective. Now we're gonna get into the GM side of things and joining us today is Kyle Rafftis, the GM of the Sioux Greyhounds in the OHL. Kyle, what's going on, man? - Not too much, guys. How are you? - We're good. We're excited to have you on. This is gonna be a fun one. I've got a nice array of topics to get into with you. I'll start off with this. You are going into year 13 with the Sioux Greyhounds. Now, it's been a while since you've been on the job and I think you've had first-hand experience over that time and how much the sport has evolved and changed how much the league itself, the OHL, maybe in the way it operates has changed particularly over the past year or so. Let's say with the eligibility rules changing to allow for CHO players to go over to the NCAA and not necessarily have to pick one or the other. I've spoken to various major junior executives in the WHO and WHO who have expressed kind of how much this new landscape or reality for them and their team building approach has changed in that time and I think we're still sort of in this learning curve or kind of experimentation process to see how it's all ultimately gonna shake out but what they've sort of common sentiment has been is that teams used to operate under this sort of sense of well, when our top players and our top prospects hit that sort of 19 year old, let's say season, that's when we're really gonna get into our competitive window our teams gonna be stacked, we're gonna be set up nicely and we're sort of timing things out through that or trying to kind of build up in crescendo towards that obviously that's become a bit more complicated or unpredictable. Now that we've seen various players at that age move on to the NCAA and switch teams, have you sort of found that we're still early on in that phase just in terms of maybe how your own approach in putting this team together and operating within the league circles is having a change since these rules kind of got implemented? - Yeah, I think definitely there's, everyone always kind of talked about a junior cycle a lot of times and you'd kind of build around a group. Like we've always tried to be, I don't think we've changed it entirely because I think now we've still kept the mindset of, you know, you're keeping an eye on this year and then you have a good idea of what next year looks like but down the road outside of that, I think it's too hard to predict. So I don't think you could kind of say, hey, you know, the 16 year olds are the 2010 birth, I know that makes us all feel old but it's that situation where you couldn't just say, I really like this group, we're gonna build it for down the road. Now I do think there's an advantage in terms of how things have kind of shifted and I think we've kind of trying to take the mindset of like you're there to develop players and you know, we've had a pretty good track record now, guys kind of sticking around and wanting to be a part of it and I think when they're in a situation where they feel like they're developing that they're gonna be there, but I definitely think, you know, even in transactions, there's been an adjustment because before, if you were trading for, let's say, a 16 or 17 year old player, you could pencil them in your lineup for the next three years but now it might be, hey, you do your job really well in 18 months, they could be gone, whether that's the American League now as a 19 year old or, you know, whatever other avenues they look at but it's definitely changed the player pool a little bit too because it's also that situation of, there's a lot of players every year that wanna play in the league and it's kind of been interesting. As much as there's been some players kind of jump to NCAA programs, the league put out something kind of in August where it said that the league's actually gone older. So I think you're seeing more of that bulk of 17 and 18 year olds and probably less 16 year olds in the league because now they're kind of given some time, whether that's playing Junior B or whatever it might be. So I think eventually once everyone wraps their mind around it, it's probably a very good step for development but right now it's funny, like we just wrapped up our training camp or we just kind of a couple exhibition games left but it used to be this kind of conversation that the 17 year old, that was close. If you didn't sign them, they probably have a commitment and you'll never see them back again because at that time they weren't gonna risk it to come in at 18 whereas now you'll see those players come to three training camps and they're still coming at 18, 19. So it's kind of shifted it that way and it's just a little bit more of, I think it puts more pressure on, you know, the individual development plan for everybody and then just making sure you're on the same page with it but it's definitely made the competition for spots a lot higher for sure. - Well, one of the pushbacks that I got to that sentiment that I outlined was MSNWHL, I think, generally got more impacted than the OHL last year with a particular at the top with guys like Gavin McKenna and Keaton Verhoff but sort of there's been a talent redistribution maybe on the higher end potentially that we're gonna see down the line but it's also been somewhat compensated by maybe a name flux of different talent that's coming in to the CHL, right? Whether it's Americans would have previously be gone from the USHL to the NCAA now all of a sudden using the CHL as sort of an intermediate step for their development and seeing that as an opportunity and taking some of those spots. Do you see that as kind of an interesting wrinkle to this in terms of compensating for some of that talent that's coming out being brought back and just then maybe in a different form or be a different route? - Yeah, I think that's definitely it. I think before it's, like I said, you were kind of grabbing players at a younger age and pushing them at that spot. Now it's kind of finding them different programs underneath you to kind of develop along so that way they come in more so I'd say OHL ready where that's I think it's been a little bit of the difference so the only downside I see to some of it and this is just kind of selfishly, it used to, if you had, it's more so the Americanly grow and seeing how that's gonna play out truthfully with it but it's cool when you have those 19 year old world and your players up against you and practice every day and pushing you seeing what that part is about but I think it's like anything if there's still gonna be those high-end 19 year olds in the league and you get a lot of high-end 18 year olds are self-included and I think that's kind of the guys that are gonna push your program and I think that's usually what it does and not just pushing it on the ice but just off the ice and that culture and that spot and for a lot of our guys it's kind of been a message of like you wanna be the guy at some point before you kind of make that jump and if you're ready then and then you think that's best and your family decides that's best and we're all for it but it's been interesting seeing the divide because we have a few American players that had opportunities to jump this year that are 19 and they understand kind of the NCAA how it's built and they'll probably jump at 20 I would imagine but it's funny the Canadian side of it and I'll be, I put myself in this boat you don't even understand how that game's played as much like you're aware of it but you don't even watch it you can grow up with it so you didn't see it as much so it's funny I think a lot of the Canadian some of the Canadian agents are a little bit more like hey what do we do with this this is coming on us where the American side of it's been a little different like hey I'm gonna be here at 19 I wanna step in as a freshman at 20 and kind of see that development curve for them so I think it's still, you're gonna take us a couple years to get through it because I think it's an adjustment for everybody top to bottom and it's just kind of seeing how it's all playing out it's been interesting but it's one of those things you can't get too kind of worked up and you just kind of have to do what you do best and you know trust that you're doing the right thing for the players and that's what we're here for whether it's coaches players you know scouts you wanna push them onto the next level if they feel like that's a great opportunity for them then you wanna be a part of that. - So that was two years ago that the NCAA removed that ban on CHL players like I think it was August 2024. So there's been a lot of time to process this and to see the moving pieces and just you know leagues reacting in terms of you know the import draft changing and you mentioned you know the OHL saying that it's actually getting a little bit older like there's some trends developing here how do you think waters found its level like do you think that when you look at what's going on now like you can almost predict okay in five years it's gonna look similar in terms of the types of players available when they leave et cetera or do you think we still don't have sort of enough sample size to determine what this new landscape ultimately looks like. - No I don't think we're there yet. I think there was such an influx of players jumping that and just seeing what was happening in the portal and guys kind of getting bounced out to make room for a lot of those guys. I think that still has to flesh itself out a little bit because I think there's a situation where to be fairly NCAA like there was all of a sudden 300 players that they thought were ineligible to play for them and all of a sudden these guys become available and if anyone knows the roster spots in the NCAA there's not that many to compensate for that. So there's been a lot of shuffling on that side of it. So I think eventually you know I think we'll get to that point and I think people will understand kind of when it's time to go what the right fit is you know we used to kind of laugh because there was a window there where everyone wanted their day on Instagram to say this is where their commitment was to. Nobody knew when they were going what their year was but everyone kind of wanted to have their day and then okay that's great for you and then let's get back to work though which is what put you in that situation to begin with. So I think it's coming but yeah it's definitely I think on both sides of it I think everyone's a little bit you know it's kind of like keeping up with the Joneses everyone wants to you know look like they're out there building their program and I think it's made a little bit difficult on both sides but at the same time. I think there's still a little bit of time before we get an idea how this is going to shake out. And truthfully, the positive is a negative isn't both of it. Because I think there's going to be some positive cases that it really worked out well. And there's going to be some negative cases, too, of just kind of seeing what fits. So I think every player is in a different spot. And I think that's the real intriguing part right now. I mean, there's a lot of differences between the two paths. One of the more interesting ones for me to consider, especially if you're using one of those zili leads is a top prospect for preparing for the next level and getting yourself ready to go pro. In an NCAA, you're realistically playing what, like, 35 to 40 regular season games. It's more of a practice heavy schedule, more kind of away from game situation stuff, I guess, whether it's skill training or we're in the weight room, whereas one of the selling points I imagine for going to CHL route for every young player is you're going to simulate what it's like to be a pro. Not necessarily in terms of when you're playing the games, but just the volume of them, like having to play potentially 75 to 80 games and then getting into the playoffs in front of those crowds, but also those game situations that are tougher to replicate regardless of how competitive your practices. Do you view that as, like, an important selling point here in terms of the development for some of these players to get that under your belt and see what that's like before you eventually turn pro, hopefully? Yeah, I don't really like to speak negative about anything, but I think when you're looking at a lot of young players, like, just going through, you know, their training camps, you know, that's 68 game schedule, you're looking at it, like, I think a lot of these guys need wraps at those high levels, and I think that's something that, you know, to build that confidence. And we talk about it internally all the time, like, I can tell you, hey, John, you're a really good player, but you might go through your first two weeks and you haven't got a point and you've never gone through that in your life. And it just, you go through those ebbs and flows of playing its older players and kind of developing on that side of it. And I think the only way you really build that confidence in your game is through those reps and getting through that side of it. And I think, you know, you can do a lot of skill work, time in the gym's crucial at this age, especially, you know, but I believe now it's kind of a 12-month sport as sad as that is to say about everything. And I think that training's got to take place at those spots, but I do think it's important for these players to get those reps being pushed every night, being able to, you know, learn to take care of your body, learn to prepare in and out and to go through those tough segments in your, in your year. And you know, it can snowball the right way for you, but it can also snowball the other way for you and how do you pull yourself out of it? And those are kind of that part of that, you don't want to say grind, because that's always kind of a negative connotation when you're talking about it. But I think it's really important for these players to kind of be pushing themself in that. And I know for our guys, like, we skate for a few weeks just to get started and they haven't got a game yet. They're almost sick of hearing from coach about, okay, let's put this into some, some situation here. Let's, they're sick of, you know, we had a pretty intense camp here this year. We had a, you know, a full new staff. So I think everyone was really pushing themself. And, you know, they're, they're good buddies off the ice, but I think they're, they're looking for, you know, to take some of their physicality on a different team at some point. I love that. Let's talk about Chase Reed. So arguably nobody's stock rose during his draft year as high as Chase and his origin story has been told many times at this point, you know, he plays 18 games in the North American hockey league in 2425. Like, kind of in obscurity. Like, that's for being honest, that's where he was because he had been cut by his USHL team. So, but you guys had his rights after selecting him in the seventh round of the OHL draft and then he explodes upon arrival and sue St. Marie in the rest of his history. But I'm curious about your perspective on, on this, this player in terms of like you saw something in him to select him in the seventh round. Maybe, you know, you didn't see, you know, what was coming in terms of him going so high in the NHL draft. But yeah, what, what was your perspective where like this kids in the, in the States, and he's, he's not really finding his path and then he ends up in the sue and he takes off. What was that all about? Yeah, it's an interesting one because going back when we selected him, he had a great. There were still some spots in his gaming where I think you could see it, but you could see flashes of it. The skating was there. You know, he wasn't as tall at that point. I think he was around six feet right shot the fence been had a great brain and it was kind of a situation where weren't sure he was going to let the land and it up taking him in that seventh round. And then he comes to our development camp and that's where he first really started to buy. I thought like, hey, like there's, there might be something here. I didn't think he was necessarily ready at 16 because he's a, he's a really late birth in December too. So we kind of pitched him as, hey, he's going to, if you put him with the awaits development wise, like he'd be right up there. So, you know, he went to one of the US festivals. I believe in Buffalo and I think that's where the it really started. You can see the confidence in his game really start to build and obviously, you know, you try and keep tabs on what your players are doing and keep the communication lines open. And I was even myself in a couple of our scouts were in Pittsburgh at the USHL showcase and when you got kind of healthy scratch, we thought, okay, like we're hoping to see how he was going to do they had a kind of an older lineup at the time. That's when that conversation kind of started about maybe making the jump and, you know, we're kind of going over the opportunities and looking at it. And then when you kind of got off to that started in North American league, you're still, it's a different league than what he'd be jumping into us. But we had kind of an opportunity. Andrew Gibson was a right hand shot. He was going to be joining. He's a second on a pick of the Detroit Red Wings was traded to Nashville in a trade and he was going to be going to World Genius for a month. And we thought, you know what, Chase is a great opportunity for you to kind of jump in and get some minutes and we got us transfer everything signed off on and he jumped in and it was funny because he tried and undersell your guys a little bit when you're kind of dealing with coaching staff and especially he was still 16 at that point. It was a situation where like, hey, let's see what you can do in every night. It was like, I was laughing after like the second period. They were coaching staff looked at me like, yeah, power play, right? It's like, yeah, power play. It was just kind of that fast. I'm just like giving him. And I'll give him credit like he was kind of a sponge when he came in. He was demanding a video. We wanted to like, he didn't have that chip on a shoulder of like, hey, I got screwed in this situation because you could see that happened to a lot of players. Like, I've been playing my 13 this year, like, what's going on? But like, he was just like, hey, you guys believe in me. Like, I'm going to do whatever I can. And it was kind of like almost like a boys charm to it. Like, hey, whatever, what can I do? How can I do this? And not in a bad way. And it was just kind of very, it was cool to see because his family and himself have so much trust in the people that believe in him that, you know, they'll, hey, if we need him here this night, we'll get him there. And it's cool to see that, you know, it's him skyrocket, but it was one of those cool things that you could kind of see it coming before it even did because. Towards the end of that year, we would have a lot of talk like we had a bunch of guys drafted Brady Martin one really early and at the end of every call with NHL teams, they would just say like, hey, just a quick question, you be on a small conversation. If the read kid was still eligible or we know, where do you see him going? As soon as every guy was bringing that up, like, we're joking, where can we sell them in on our draft board, but so you knew he was going to get off to great start next year. So it was, it was really cool to be a part of truthfully. Yeah, it was back to back years now, right? Maybe a bit of a different story, but I remember the year prior Brady Martin was one of the bigger risers throughout that draft process, especially leading up to the draft, culminating in the predators. As you mentioned, taking him fifth overall and he had a bit of an interesting year this past year, where he gets that sort of a big first initial taste of what the NHL's like. I believe we got three games under his belt to start the year with the press and then winds up coming back to the gray hounds and playing the rest of the year for you guys. I'm curious for sort of that kind of process, right? In terms of getting your feet wet somewhat at that level, seeing what that's like and then all of a sudden kind of coming back and reintegrating yourself into the CHL. What was that sort of like for him last year? Because I know we have a lot of, as much as I've got a ton of development questions for you and like niche CHL things ultimately, this is an NHL focus program. We've got a lot of listeners who want to familiarize themselves more with these guys. And so you have a, I think a unique insight into sort of what that process was like for him last year. Yeah, it's tough because you go from, you know, I think he's been the guy obviously on your team and then he goes into situation. They set him up. He's living at Phillip Fortsburg's house and kind of getting some good taste of things and exhibition and then all of a sudden and kind of it's funny with these guys sometimes because then all of a sudden you get in the regular season gets a couple games and he's kind of sitting out a few games and you're kind of unsure. So we, you know, he sat out a few games on one road trip and then we kind of got the call that they were going to send them back to us and it takes a little bit to get the guys kind of more accustomed to things and it's not just the speed. It's just kind of, you know, when you're sitting out watching it, there's only so much you can do and that's where you go back to and Brady's one of those guys that he needs his reps, he needs to be on the ice and, you know, that's where he wants to be part of it. But it took him a bit to get accustomed to everything obviously is somebody that, you know, personality wise walks in and everyone knows he's in the room and the guys we're obviously excited to have him back, but it's funny. It's funny with CHL wise with a lot of those guys you almost don't have them because by the time they get sent back you're almost in November and then they go to world juniors in December so it's kind of and then unfortunately it was hurt in that tournament so it's kind of funny that with a lot of times those guys when they go that high like you do have them but they're kind of always in and out with the rest of the way so you're trying to kind of be a part of a team and you know pick up this system. Now you have a lot more other people in your head you have the development coach, you know, within an HL team you have, you know, their management a lot of times these guys have their own separate guys on the side and you have our stuff so it's a lot of different information and I think the best teams that I've been around are the guys that can I want everybody on the same page and that way because we all want the best, you know, the best version of Brady Martin or or player X is going to be the best version for each one of us in that part of it so I think that's the thing that you kind of have to play those dynamics. And sometimes it can be a little bit of a political thing in terms of how they want to position it but at the same time I think that's when you can really, you know, take a step because that the players performance and their development's the most important thing. for all of us. What's that relationship like with prospects who went as high as Brady Martin was and then their NHL organization that drafted them kind of keeping tabs on them throughout the year and sort of what that communication is like because I've always I've talked on the show particularly for more maybe established veteran players I've found it a bit surprising the way NHL teams operate in terms of maybe the lack of oversight they have especially when you get into the offseason where players kind of just typically go away they work with their own skills coaches are their own camps they spend the summer working on their skills and then they come back with training camp and you jump back in and maybe there's a misalignment between what the team wants from them and what they actually worked on or what their own vision for themselves is this is a more unique situation but kind of what's that I guess sort of just yeah the communication like between the two sides where the team took this guy he's playing for you they're keeping tabs on them I'm sure they have some thoughts on what they'd like to see from their development that year or how they like to see him use and then obviously you're while you're worried about the player and you want what's best for them also you're trying to run a team and win games and and put everyone else in a position to succeed as well yeah to your point I've always found that very interesting because it's kind of like a it's like a prey and hope it was some of that summer stuff whereas even with our guys you you want to take tab put tabs on them because if that player doesn't turn out and sometimes unfortunately does you want to make sure you exhausted everything you could in that side of it and that's how we look at it in the junior side of it it's not just like hey it's April best of luck hopefully you're better and you know September 1st I always find that kind of an odd thing and I won't name the teams but you guys follow league very well you will know the teams I do an excellent job like you can have there's some teams that I could be a seventh round pick and they're putting everything into that player like and you know on the same page of the they're they come up to the suit they're on the ice with them you know they're doing video with them they're sitting in meetings with us like we're kind of an open buck with any of the NHL teams that come up and work and then there's some teams it could be a very high pick and you don't hear a word from them and then you kind of check in with the player like yeah any kind of feedback on what they're seeing and no and it's kind of it kind of blows my mind because you you know you see all the kind of everyone talking about assets in terms of picks and it's always tough because these are 18-year-old people so it's you hate to use that word but it's also that it's amazing that some of these staffs just kind of what they don't see in the player or just you know what to use my point like you used to pick on this player you sign them as a free agent like let's put everything into it and then if hey if we all look at each other this player is not a fit here and we have to move on from them then we have to move on from them but it's it's kind of funny how a lot of them just kind of you know make the pick and kind of you know like I said you pray and hope and hopefully it pops which is kind of a term a lot of teams use but I don't know it's kind of been interesting but there are a lot of teams to do an excellent job with it but I won't name it and you guys can kind of I'm sure you guys know the ones that do a great job and don't but it's it's it's interesting to see the kind of the behind the scenes of it for sure I remember talking to Brendan Taylor who is now the head coach of the second spirit but who is in the zoo with you I talked to him a while back about Nick Hagg who obviously is in the NHL has developed a really strong career but was a really gangly player and junior and you know how to a lot of work to do like you know he has this great frame and he has you know these skills but like you know we got to mold him into an NHL and at the time Brendan was in Mississauga so this wasn't in the zoo but I remember talking to him and he mentioned how they spent so much time working on Hagg's pivots at the defensive blue line so that he could go retrieve Pux efficiently and obviously when you're a massive guy six foot seven two fifteen like you're turning kind of slowly you got to work on your your sort of ballet skills if you will and it took it took Hagg time to to get past that gangly stage but if you're on the ice you know working on that particular skill retrieving Pux long enough with a good coach you're going to make progress and the reason why that was important to Brendan in terms of working with Nick Hagg was he knew that when it comes time to elevate to pro that's got to be a part of his game he's going to have to retrieve Pux efficiently I wonder like from your position what are some of those separation skills that people don't see where you have a kid in junior he's got potential to make the pros or maybe even make the NHL but you're like if he's going to separate himself from the 20 other guys in his development system with his NHL team he's got to work on I don't know wallplay or these own retrievals what are some of the little details that you in the sous work on to really polish these players before they leave for the pros yeah like I find it's always we chop it kind of into thirds it's like through scouting up to identify that player you have to put them in a program where they're going to be successful and then the third part's going to be they have to put it in the work too because you can lay it out you can see it in them for whatever reason they might not just they might find that they didn't love it as much or whatever it might be and we try and be like really articulate when we're doing reports on players because it's easy to just and it's tough we have to you know you're looking at like 1100 kids a year for the draft and you have to kind of chop it down but it's also you don't want to just say like hey player X bad skater if you're going to say that it has to be what's wrong with this ride what do you see because in a lot of ways there's always some feedback in terms of like I'm going to get into a little bit debate with some NHL people when can you really when does it stop that you kind of hit your peak in skating is it you know what's the spot of it and is this you know when we're looking at a 15-year-old is it you know edge works really good it's just like you look at it he's got two broomsticks on his legs like it just needs some muscle to get that pop and a stride whatever it might be is it a strength issue is it a mechanics issue is it a conditioning like you have to kind of see that side of it so I think the biggest thing for a lot of players when you're looking kind of looking at that side of it is you know obviously creativity because I think you know skating's the one that's going to catch your eye first but when a player is kind of in that spot of just like and I don't mean creativity like Michigan's behind the net or anything like that it's more so just of like hey under pressure you can make place consistently what can you do you know picking up like a lot of our skill sessions are done without a lot of apparatus is it's not the lights that you see on Instagram and stuff and some of it's kind of that boring side of it like we do a lot of work with our wingers are just like picking pucks off the yellow runner under backhand like stuff that like a lot of players kind of when you're when you're good at a young age you can say hey they didn't get to learn it but they didn't have to because you know there's a lot if you're for example if you're a great offensive of skating defenseman everyone's first comment I was always can't you can't defend that's every guy that ever comes out because the first thing is you're stick so good a lot of times you can just catch a net and you're out of the zone making it out of the pass and everyone's kind of you just don't have that time to develop it so then you get to junior in that first little bit of just kind of like turning back for pucks it's you know you're not always going to have a step on somebody they're going to angle you a little bit better so there's always those little things but a lot of times they have to kind of see it first because it's the first time going through it on that side of it so it's interesting and not that Nick Hagg was a late bloomer by any means he was a high-end kid even coming in that's the one thing going back to what we were talking about the one thing I'm curious to see how it trends is just the late bloomer because a lot of times now it like I think a lot of this rule change if you're an elite player you know 16 17 18 19 I think these rule changes are very good for you you have a you know unlimited options of where you can play but that late bloomer where are they going to be able to kind of find their spot and kind of develop on that side of it so it's going to be interesting to see how that kind of progresses but that's just my own that theory hasn't been tested but it's going to be curious to see kind of how many of those guys pop down the road because they're going to have to have a real good personal plan if they're kind of not found out in kind of a that's certain timeframe well you answered this already but I am fascinated by the skating component particularly for you know a teenager and the projectability of it because I think a lot of people especially from a scouting perspective or watching these these games you guys are playing through that lens right of kind of not necessarily you want to see production and you want to see results and you're going to be judged on that and that's going to be way accordingly but you're trying to sort of project transferable skills or kind of what's what you're going to be able to leverage at the next level when maybe you know there's less space available you don't necessarily have a size or speed advantage as much as you did previously and and still being effective versus doing stuff that's allowing you to produce right now but all of a sudden you're going to have a tougher time adjusting and the skating angle is so interesting because I think you get such a wide array of topics from people who know a lot about this particular thing and it just not really agreed upon right like the game is sped up so much it's faster than it's ever been yet I know a lot of evaluators are maybe less worried or fixated on individuals skating ability and they were previously particularly for young prospects just because I think there's a feel and there's been you know mounting evidence of various success stories over the past how many years of guys who got you know dropped in in the draft process because it was like oh well you know that skating stride is so choppy and they're already slow they're producing but once you speed them up in the NHL they're not going to be able to hang with the pace of play and then you give them access to some of the you know day-to-day pro perks whether it's the skating coaches or just more resources in general and attention to detail and all of a sudden they get to a level where it's perfectly functional enough and it's not going to be a strength but it's not going to be a limiting factor either and then there's people who are just like yeah if you can't kind of separate yourself at this level already I don't really want to bet on that being the case in the NHL it feels like you yourself are kind of undecided on that how do you sort of where do you land between those two no it's funny because sometimes this is more so when the players are younger a player that kind of develops or skating a little bit later. I always find it has like the brain because they've survived at what it might be their triple A level. They've learned how to kind of gain the system. And then when the skating hits kind of later on, I find those guys are like, it almost benefits them. Not that any parent or anybody would want that to slow it down on them, but it's funny when you kind of see somebody that if you're the best skater at 9, 10, 11 years old, like you don't, you just put, you play a completely different game. Like you don't have to use kind of your body to protect pox. You can kind of use that expulsiveness. And if everyone catches up to those players and you see it in our draft, you see in the NHL draft that everyone goes like, he's fast. This is NHL speed, but he has no idea what to do with the puck and he's kind of running into big guys and it just can't make plays off, you know, it delays little things like that. So it's interesting on that side of it. But I think a lot of it comes into like I said that you're kind of using, you know, what can you clean up in their stride? And then there's some guys that, you know, just have that efficiency and roots. I use, this is going back sometime this player, like even like a Rasmus and Dean or Connor Timmins that we had, like when you watch them play the game, they're not exactly just like these fluid skaters, but they always seem to have the puck on their stick. They always can get outside of traffic. They have a great head on their shoulders in terms of making exits, defending, taking way time and space. So it's kind of, that's where you really have to when you kind of a player pops to you and, you know, you can maybe find some value a little bit later in the draft because of it, but if there's, there's things there that can be kind of picked off that make that player, you know, a good prospect for you and obviously a good NHL league down the road. I feel like a decade ago, the conventional wisdom around hockey sense was that, you know, it was more of this like innate skill. It's kind of locked in at a certain age. Do you either have it or you don't? If we're talking about like elite hockey sense or very good hockey sense. But then you've got guys like Marty St. Louis and Adam Nicholas talking openly while with the Canadians about, hey, through film session, through on ice instruction, we can improve a guy's hockey sense even when they're in their 20s. I wonder where you stand on that in terms of like the nature and nurture of hockey sense. Like can, can a can a big improvement be made or is there like a baseline that you need just not out of the womb necessarily, but within your first 10 years playing hockey? Yeah, I think you can always be improved. I don't think you can take as big as steps in it. Like when you see someone with like a elite hockey sense and I know like, there's some stuff that you're like, I don't know how we can see that on the air. Like that stuff, I don't think can be. You can always improve it. I think you can improve things gradually and it can get better. You get more comfortable in your position, learn that that side of it, you know, see those plays through those reps and that type of thing. But a elite hockey sense is something that like, I don't even know how it can be taught because some, some guys when you see it from them, it's just like, even from sitting up top or I'm sitting, so there's some guys where sometimes you're like, wow, like I don't even know how we saw that, just that creativity, that sense, it's like they have eyes in the back of their head. So I think that the elite side of it, I think it's tough, but I do think you can gradually improve it in terms of a player understanding their game, what they're successful into because I think a lot of times when you're talking about hockey sense, it's, and it's, I don't mean it in a role side of it, but just like, what are your attributes that you do really well and how do you continually go back to it to make sure that you're using these constantly. I think that's a big side of it because I think a lot of players think their game comes off of one way, but it might be, you're not someone that's going to kill anybody offensively off the rush. You're a guy that's going to come off, you know, roll outs down low around the net, little things like that and there's some guys that just can master that and they look like they have great hockey sense, but that's just in their little kind of wheelhouse of what they like to do. And there's other guys that are more so, you know, they need a little bit open space to get off the wall to create a shot, that type of thing. So I think that's how you can kind of really extract as much of it as you can. So a little peek behind the curtain for a process for the summer series interviews, Kyle, John and I put together our notes in terms of like kind of building block topics. We want to ask our steam guests about and then we convene for a meeting and we, you know, exchange ideas and we kind of get rid of the stuff that maybe we don't need to to spend time on and really focus on things we're excited about. And John came up with one that I was so envious of that I'm going to steal it from him here and use it in co-op as my own, but we had damn use on the summer series earlier. And I thought one of the more fascinating things that he brought up was he was reflecting on some of the reps he got at lower levels on his way to being a head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins in the NHL and his work in the USHL and the development program. And he just cited the importance of kind of using those opportunities to experiment in his craft with new ideas, maybe try out some more unconventional methods, not all of them are going to work, but had the luxury to kind of test stuff out because by the time you get to the NHL or just pro hockey in general, things are so much more rigid in business like there's not that much room for exotic creativity. Let's say, you know, it's different for you. You've been with the Greyhounds in this role for a while now. And as a GM, I imagine there's maybe less room for experimentation than, you know, a head coach with tactics or sets that you're trying to run. But I'm fascinated for your perspective on that in terms of, you know, the role you're currently in and sort of, I guess, maybe some of the leeway you might have to, you know, try things that you might not be able to, if you were, let's say, the, you know, the GM of whatever NHL team where you sort of had to go through more checks and balances and just didn't have that opportunity to do so. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes for a draft, like we have 15 rounds. And in a lot of ways, you have to get a little creative when you're going into those, especially as you get into the double digits of it because you don't want to ever throw away a pick or anything like that, but there's also situations where you're kind of like, you're trying to hit home runs really with it because you don't need all 15 players from each draft class to play. So I find there's, we kind of come up with some different, like, whether it's little algorithms of just kind of like, you know, what could we find here? What are we missing from an eye test? What is something that can kind of pop? And analytics are always a little different, difficult to track from minor hockey side of it, but I think there's some little things of just like, you're trying to find a one-two-player, obviously a five-two-player, you're going to want them early in that draft, but what else are we missing from them? Is it, you know, where have they played from the last few years? Are they on the upswing? Like, little things, we're always trying to get a little creative with it. We've had some success with some of them and some of them, you know, it's for whatever reason, didn't, but I think there's always little things we're trying to look at in terms of when you're sitting there. What's somebody that within that 18 months is going to pop for us? And what can we do better to kind of make sure that they do on that side of it? So I think there's little things on them in the management side. I think coaching-wise, I'd agree with that earlier comment because I think when you're going through a long year, I think if you can throw some creativity at the guys, I find that you really dial in a little bit. It becomes fun. It's different and they kind of, you get that juice going too. And if you're playing that third game in four days and you're kind of like, "Hey, guys, we're going to look at here for this." That video session, everyone dials in a little bit more. It's not just the usual, like, this is their break out. This is what we're looking to do. I just find you give them a little bit of a different look to it. And I think that's where you get the fun out of it. And I think they can create a lot of energy because sometimes it's tough to create that energy, especially with the travel and all those other things. I'm glad you brought that up because, in preparation for this, I was looking up the Carter George trade you guys made in January and involved seven drafts. And that's always one of my favorite bits of someone who doesn't follow the CHL as closely. I remember the Olens L-Wegger one from a couple of years ago when the blazers loaded up and sent 10 picks or something like that for them. And the graphics are always whole areas in terms of one player. This just treasure chest of assets. We obviously don't see that at least to that extent in the NHL, but I'm fascinated by how those come together and how you ultimately, in a trade like that, let's say, settle on that exact number of picks because at that point, it's like, well, let's get crazy. Let's go eight. Let's go nine. Obviously, at some point, you're like, I need to have a certain value cut it off here, but I'm always just curious how those trades come together for when you're ballparking that many picks down the line. Yeah, it's funny. It used to be even a few years ago that you could trade out almost as far as you wanted to. And now they've kind of capped it on four years. So it's kind of brought it down a little bit because your point it's still kind of, especially around the trade line, can get a little bit crazy on that side of it. But yeah, it's some of those conversations are funny because it sounds ridiculous. There's always a comp on both sides that you can kind of use to kind of push it in that way. But you know, the biggest eye opener I always have for it is when you're just a fan of a league and you're watching it happen. You see a trade on paper. You're like, this would make sense for them. This would make sense for them. And then with now when you're responsible for making that calls, you could think you're almost, and I always joke every trade no one's really happy with because they thought they gave up too much the other side. But there's some trade where you think you're actually given too much and the other team doesn't want anything to do with it. And it's just kind of like, you're like, yeah, I thought I was given too much on this side of it. But yeah, I think it's, I think last year there was a little bit more emphasis on picks because I think a lot of people are still worried about who was going to be able to be there a year from now. And there was kind of more emphasis put on that. But I do think you're seeing it not to say it was inspired by the CHL. But you do see a lot more, you know, NBA-wise NFL seems to be kind of, you know, a lot more picks are involved in these trades. And I think, you know, the NHL, they're starting to see like multiple, you know, first round picks are moving in certain situations. So I do think there's, you know, a little bit more put into that. I think there's more study in terms of, you know, what they think those those picks are worth. And it's also that black box theory of like, do you want that prospect that you know what he is already or do you want this black box? That could be that something. So it's always kind of an interesting side of it. But yeah, definitely some of the start of those conversations are you have to have a pen and paper handy to write down, especially trying to keep track of the years. the same thing. I love that. It's so fascinating because on one hand, it makes total sense to me where you get this like star player in the OHL. He's going to improve your team by leaps and bounds in comparison to like just getting a star player at the NHL level. And the assets, like you said, like the assets that you can use. It's so limited. If a guy's an overager that you want to trade, the other team doesn't doesn't want that player. They're they're not even making the playoffs. So you just run out of options quickly. And the next thing you know, you know, someone's building a 10 asset or 10 piece trade for one player and social media is laughing at it. But it does, it does. There is some logic behind it when you actually, you know, get into the weeds of it. But you brought up earlier sort of the use of analytics. I believe you use algorithms. So I assume that that goes back to data. You know, Kyle Dubis known for his data background when he was at this with the Su Greyhounds. He was the GM there before you. I wonder what did that look like when you arrived on the job in terms of what he had built up infrastructure wise in terms of tasks that certain people were handling on a small staff or even just like what you guys were trying to figure out. And then from there, what do things look like today? Where are you seeing the most impact of data? It's imperfect at lower levels, but there are, you know, competitive advantages to be sought and acquired. Yeah. I think originally there was a lot of people. It's funny that we're doing other jobs for us in the Sioux, like in our front office in terms of ticket sales, whatever it might be. And then they were on the side kind of, you know, doing some tracking in that type of thing and doing some scraping off size for, but even still a lot of that information, like there wasn't a lot of ice time shown. There wasn't a lot of, you know, even shots were counted, but not even where they were taken on the ice. So it was kind of another thing, you know, you're looking at shooting percentage that type of thing. Now it's kind of what I find it for us. It's kind of trying to find a lot of those efficiencies in terms of, you know, how does this player, you know, taking steps on that side of it? What are they trying to do? Because I think in a lot of ways, when you're looking at a pro player, you know, this is 24, there's different age curves, right? Of what you're looking at. Whereas in our level, you're looking at a player that could be 16. And then maybe they fell into a spot where they're not really developing or just fell out of favor with the coach. Like the ones that we try and really, and are the most fun to do, truthfully, are finding that player that, because that it's going to take that big jump. Because in junior hockey, you could have a player one year with seven points in the next year score 27 goals. And it's not all the time, but you'll see that a lot where a player can make jumps leaps and bounds. So it's about kind of trying to find out, you know, what's that player, where can we kind of identify him, and then can we, you know, acquire that player once they're in the league type thing? So we're always trying to, you know, find players that fit what we do. And at the same time, you try and do that, you only have a few ventures to do that. It's through the draft, through trade, or, you know, sounding something as a free agent. So I think a lot of our stuff now, and there's tons of sites that do, you know, programs, we have them all, but you're also trying to find out stuff that's, you know, can I get our coaches that nice one pager after every game of going into it? Because I think I joke, it's like a three thumb rule. If they have the squirrel three times on their phone, they're probably not getting to that last little part on it. And it's, it's not because they're not engaged in it, but it's just, it has to be something of like, this is what we're seeing, and then you have to back it up with video. Because when we're showing our players, we're not showing them, hey, this is what you're, this is what you're sharp, this is where you're shooting. It's has to be backed up on video, and the guys are very perceptive about it because at the end of the day, it's going to help them out. So we're just trying to always track that type of information, and then trying to build in some things of more so projections. And then not to say it's always points driven, but just like, this is what you can see this player getting to at that point. Because I think that's the hardest thing when you're gauging a player that's, you know, 16, 17 years old, what can you project to them? And the old-school version would have been like, yeah, 30 goals score at 18. I can see it, but there's nothing to back that up of why they're doing that. It's just, maybe as a good release, but can't hit the net or whatever it might be. So I think that's the biggest thing we try and do. And then more so, how can you implement on how you play? And I think there's lots of teams. Our league's no different. They have these huge analytics tasks, but then you watch them play, and you're like, there's no way anyone's reading any of this data or anything they're taking in, because you'd think they would play a different style. But it's also the flexibility of your coaching staff, because to your earlier conversation, you know, you can't just play one way and be stubborn with it. You have to kind of work with the group you have in that particular spot, but not waver too far away from what you guys are trying to do as a complete side of it, too. So yeah, it's an ever-changing thing. I find it everyone's much more open to it. Everyone's kind of trying to find the next thing, but I think it's also like not trying to be distracted too much. By just saying you're tracking all these things, it's just like, how can we actually put this to work in terms of making us better and the players better on top of it? Well, at the risk of oversimplifying things, I generally find like a useful rule of thumb for me in terms of explaining year-to-year production for players is typically just, it's pretty predicated on role in the CHL, right? And usage in particular, like you see these crazy jumps, and part of it is certainly a player being a year older, kind of getting stronger and developing, and all the work you're doing with them behind the scenes. But typically it's associated with, you know, maybe someone who was high up on the depth chart, either graduating to the next level, or aging out of the league, or just moving on elsewhere, and then all of a sudden they step into power play one top-line minutes playing with the other team's best players, and they like triple their goalscoring from the year prior, and people are always taken aback by that, and I think it's generally pretty well explained by that. Like I said, at the risk of oversimplifying all the other things to go into it. I also think like something in terms of stats, like you can be on a, like a high shooting percentage heater in the OHL for two years. Everyone always thinks I go it's going to fall off like sometimes you can keep it going. It might not have last forever, but it's like the shooting percentages stuff like that when people are looking at it, oh shooting percentages super high, it should fall back the next year. Like I've seen guys keep that going for two years in junior, and it's kind of interesting when everyone's trying to poke holes in little things. Yeah, there's so much context that is missing from the data, and there's so, like, players are developing rapidly, right? So, you know, that player on your rival that's on the third line that didn't get any ice time last season could pop off this season. And do you go to that team and try to acquire them before, and because you saw something in them, whether it was, you know, the eye test video, something in the data, or is that team just ready to unleash him, and next thing, you know, he's a star in the league. And obviously goal-tending is a big part of this too, where some years, I'm sure you feel like there's not a ton of good goalies for whatever reason, or some years there's a bunch, or the league has become more defensive this year. I feel like there's more volatility in terms of what you're seeing, both night to night, because the best teams in the league are usually a lot better than the worst teams in the league, but also season to season. Yeah, and there's also some theory that this player was always at the top of their age, you're up their whole life. And now you're 19 in the league again, you might not be an NHL player down the road, but now you're back to that spot again, and everyone's kind of younger than you can you take advantage of that side of it too. But yeah, I think there's so much changes each year, and even players like it off the great starts, like sometimes you might still have eight players at NHL camps when you're opening your season, and it's kind of a situation where look out for this team, and then they crash in November, and it becomes a huge thing. But there's definitely disparity, I wouldn't say early in the year, but definitely after the trade deadline and that type of thing. But it's also an opportunity where you see younger players that might have been moved in a deal in a higher leverage situation, and all of a sudden they take off, and it helps their draft stop too. So it's kind of on both sides of it, but yeah, it's definitely season to season is a tough and sometimes dangerous thing, because there's just so much different change over and even conference to conference. All right, well, that's all I've got for today. Kyle, this was awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time. It was great to finally get you on the program to catch up and best of luck this season, looking forward to seeing how you guys do. I appreciate it. Anytime I'm floated out with some PDO swag, I had to clear the schedule, so I was all aboard. Appreciate you guys having me on. Well, there you have it. Kyle Raftis, I believe that's part four or five of the summer series. If you want to include the Brendan Dillon one, we did back in July. John, we're going to do about a 10 or so minute capper here at the end, reflect a little bit on the chat we just had with Kyle Raftis and unpack some of our favorite tidbits. It was excellent to have him on. I love that he's continuing the great lineage of Kyle's running the Susie Marie Greyhounds, the second one of the sort that we've had here as part of the summer series on the PDO guest, and I thought he was excellent. It's always cool to speak with people in the game who are pretty transparent about their process, and I thought he certainly was both in terms of the changing landscape. We documented off the top, but then their own mode of operation in the suit in terms of what they're looking for, their players, how it all fits as pieces of the puzzle. The CHL still feels like this just totally different frontier for me. Maybe it's because I'm not a draft expert who's following these teams on a day-to-day basis, and grinding that tape, I'm typically reserving it for the end of the season when I'm jamming in my pre-draft homework, but it's always fascinating to see the disparity maybe between some of those teams, and you kind of touched on it in a very well-articulated way in terms of the gap between the top teams in these leagues and the bottom teams, but I think that extends to beyond on ice play as well in terms of their approach as well. I think you and I both think pretty highly of the way the the Greyhounds operate and how they've been run under a Kyle, and it was cool to chat about it with. Yeah, and anybody listening who doesn't know Kyle, like he could be working in the NHL right now, like, you know, I'm not speaking for him for why he isn't, but like, I think he's just enjoying himself in the zoo, but I would guarantee that he's been approached to work in the NHL. And I think what I find most appealing about him as an executive is his open-mindedness and ability to adapt, like, for example, when this whole NCAA rule change happened where CHL players, CHL players were suddenly allowed to go to the NCAA. There were a lot of CHL managers, OHL, QMGHL, WHO, who got their back up, and it became sort of an us-first them. And some of them were, you know, being protective, and some of them were, I suppose you could say, being delusional, where they thought, yeah, this is happening, but like, my program's good enough that the players are going to stay. And that's just not what's happened. But I recall talking to Kyle at some point around that time, and he was more sort of just analyzing it more objectively, like, with less emotion and thinking, you know, how can we adapt here in the zoo? And, you know, I don't know how many of the listeners know where Sioux St. Marie is, but it's like, I don't know, eight hours north of Toronto, like, it's really quite in the middle of nowhere. So, they've really actually since Dubis got there, whatever it was, like, 15, 16 years ago, they've done a really good job recruiting, but there was a time where it was a bit of an outpost in the OHL where his parents were like, I don't want to send my kid that far, my 16-year-old, that far to play hockey, and that would obviously change how the draft works, because there's a lot of sort of manipulation that the agents do and whatnot. So, that's a long way of saying that Kyle's done a really good job with the Sioux program, and he took it from Dubis who had sort of brought it to a new level, and I guess, modernized it for lack of a better word. And now Kyle's, what, 13 years in, you mentioned. I think this is a 13 season, and he said, you know, "Children keyfunder him for a coach, Drew Bannister is now back as his coach. He had left to go to the OHL then the NHL and now he's back." And yeah, they develop a bunch of players, and I think we saw why, in terms of Kyle's perspective, and the way that he views his job and developing players at that level. Yeah, I didn't want to bring this up during our chat, because I'm sure it would have made him uncomfortable in blush, although maybe he would have liked to hear it anyways, but I think the track record speaks for itself, right? You talk about sort of this perception, or like, if you're a parent of a young player, and you're trying to steer them towards a career playing pro hockey, hopefully in NHL one day, they have a pretty good track record of success stories there, especially top picks, and you know, the past two years having both chase read and Brady Martin back-to-back, but even extending beyond that, like you've got Barrett Hayden, you know, you go on down the line, and all the guys who have come through there that have carved out NHL careers for them. It's been pretty impressive, and I know that, especially because what Dubis was there for three or four years, as the GM obviously had been with the organization, cutting his teeth in the industry for well before that, but when they sort of handed the keys over to Kyle Raptus, like I know, he put a lot of thought into carrying over a lot of the stuff Dubis had brought into place there within the organization, and integrated, and then trying to build that out as all the advancements in hockey have come to the forefront around us as well. So yeah, it speaks for itself, and it's pretty exciting. I didn't really, you know, we started off talking about the NCAA, and I think it's, you know, certainly the most interesting part of all this for all of these teams and GMs in terms of how they're operating and how they're approaching, and it's still trial by error for the most part for a lot of these people, but it was cool to hear him talk about that because I think it would have been pretty easy for someone in this position to instantly kind of have their guard up when we start talking about it because he's going through it right now with chase read where you put in all this work, turning him from, as you said, you know, playing in a relatively unknown environments to all of a sudden being in legit consideration for the first overall pick for a long time in the pre-job process, settling at seventh overall still an amazing accomplishment, and typically in the past it would have been like, man, this guy who's going to play half the game, and especially with his skating as a right shot defender, just have such an outsized impact at this level where you, it doesn't matter who else you have on the team, if you have that guy, you're probably going to be pretty competitive every single night. It's all of a sudden now you're watching him go play in Michigan State, I believe next season, and now you just have to do that all over again. I think he's got a good sense of his role in all that in terms of that being a feather in his cap, but also turning the page over, and it's like this is an intermediate gap for a lot of these guys. It's not a long-term home. You're trying to develop them and get them to the next level, and now he just has to do it all over again, but I think depending on who you talked to like that conversation, I think could have gotten a lot better than it did here with him today. And on the point about Chase Reed, it was really interesting that anecdote he had about, you know, he's talking all these scouts about Brady Martin and the sort of other Sioux players part of that 2025 draft class, and at the end of every call, they're like, hey, so both this Chase Reed kid, what do you, what do you project for him? I just love how that ended up being, you know, a good omen for, for Reed's draft stock, and people are keeping an eye on him because they saw this incredible rise, this incredible journey already happening, and then this past season, I mean, like I said on during the interview, like, I don't know if there was anyone who's stock roses as high as Reed, not that I'm like a draft expert, but thinking back, I believe it's Chase Reed. So that's fascinating. And then yeah, another thing that jumps out to me, you know, and I know he was, you know, I think he was half joking, but when we were talking about data and what's believable, what's relevant, Kyle's like, a guy can go on a two-year shooting percentage bender in the OHL, and it's not like super uncommon. I just, it's just so funny to hear that because when we discuss the NHL, it's like, if a guy is hot for a month, we're like, he's schooling down, but the thing about the OHL is that, you know, the competition, you know, just continues to get easier if you have that confidence as a star player, and if you feel like you're leveling up your game, you're just all of a sudden, you're the, the points just keep piling up, and you know, your shooting percentage remains at whatever 25% for two years. Well, it's changed. I thought you brought up a great point of how a year-to-year the environment changes quite a bit in terms of the relative strengths of the league, the dynamics in terms of how the games being played, what the strengths at certain positions are across the board, but, you know, typically for all of these CHL leagues, maybe not as much as, as you say, the Q, but like, even the OHL can be the wild, wild West in terms of the imbalance of talent on the teams, but also, you know, players at that age, like, we kind of know that attention to detail defensively, and understanding there and commitment typically comes later, or even later, into your NHL career, and there's not as much structure, and so it is much more sort of like backyard hockey in a way. So if you have a certain skill, like, let's say, shooting talent, you're going to have a lot of success score and goals, regardless, and then by not necessarily translate, it's for us to figure out what that's going to look like in the NHL, but especially for comparing it to goalies, right? And we didn't get into this when we talked about Carter George, and people are really excited about him as a king's prospect in his future within that organization, but I always do find it interesting for goalies at that level, because when you talk to evaluators, it's always reassuring to see that a goalie's had success along the way, like whatever league they've played in, if they've stood out and stopped a high percentage of pucks, that's a good sign, but we know NHL teams typically don't care that much about that, like they're looking much more for like, projectable tools, particularly size and athleticism, and even if you have a subpar save percentage, you feel like, well, if we bring him in, and he works with our goalie coach, and we round out a few things technically, we're going to get better results, and that's what we care about by the time he's 25 as opposed to what his save percentage is when he's 18. And so it doesn't necessarily matter if the goalie has an 80/80 save percentage, but for the shooter, it's like, well, if he has an 80/80 save percentage, that means I'm probably rocking a pretty high shooting percentage myself and scoring a lot of goals, and so that dynamic in the interplay shooter where his goalie is always interesting at these levels. Yeah, there's so much unpredictability from game to game, and like if you think about the psychology of like a 16, 17, 18 year old, like the ups and downs of like, what if you got dumped by your girlfriend the night before, like, what does that game look like? How do you bounce back from from that when your brain isn't even fully developed into sort of a mature person? So there's a lot going on there. And obviously, certain guys stand out, whether it's maturity, mentally, or physically, and then they may fade away because the skills aren't developed. It's fascinating. And obviously, this is a whole, the whole thing with scouting is like, you're betting on certain things panning out in the end, and you're going to have misses and you're going to have hits, but you hope that sort of the average player that you put your hand up for in your draft meeting pans out in that you were right. Because otherwise, you're probably not going to have a job. All right, buddy. Well, that's all from us for today. Another chapter of the summer series in the books we've got, one more planned. It will be really stretching the definition of summer because it will be on September 21st. I believe I'm not going to give away who it is yet. I will tease though it is a returning guest from last year series. And it's going to be a fun one looking forward to that already started the prep process for that. So we're going to have that for you soon. We'll keep the regular shows otherwise coming until then subscribe to the patreon if you want access to all this stuff all the shows we're gonna do the rest of the season in ad free form gonna be posting them right away on that feed as soon as we record them so there's gonna be no lag process like there was in the past where I would do a show and send it in and then you know three trades would happen mid-season I'd be like oh man all right well by the time it's out I guess you got to listen to what we talked about even though it's outdated now so you're gonna get instant access to all of that if you want to watch along with us we're going to be posting shows like this one on the YouTube channel as well this season so you can watch along with us please subscribe like comment there I believe we're up to 5,000 subscribers there now which is very exciting so let's keep that going and then if you're watching this you could see I'm rocking the version 2.0 of the PDO cast he sure we initially launched this summer or first edition kept it very simple with just the PDO cast artwork logo on it got a nice design for this one we're gonna keep building that catalog so you can get yourself some merch there give us a five star view of course as always wherever you're listening to this and that is all for John and I for today we'll be back soon with plenty more thank you for subscribing and for listening to the occupier cast [Music] and you're going to be a great one. 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