Summer Series 2.0 Part 3 with Dan Muse

(upbeat music) - Regressing to the mean since 2015. It's the hockey EPDO cast with your host, Demetri Philipovich. - Welcome to the hockey EPDO cast. My name is Demetri Philipovich and joining me is my good buddy, John Mattis, John, what's going on? - There actually is a lot going on. We got a special guest today. - Yes, I'm excited. - Well, we shouldn't overlook the fact that you're coming off fresh off LTIR as well, and on the shelf, and so you're back in action, excited to have you back on the show, but we are continuing our summer series. We're gonna get the coaching perspective. This time we've got a special guest, making his first appearance on the show, coming off a season in which he was recognized for his work as a finalist in the Jack Adams voting. It's Dan Hughes, Dan, what's going on? - How are you doing? Thanks for having me on. - I'm excited to have you on. We got a lot to discuss here over the next 40 or so minutes or whatever, so we'll get right into it. I'm gonna start with this. You were hired by the penguins to be the team's head coach on June 4th last off season, and your first time in HL Head Coach, you're taken over a team that had an established core veteran group. It was coming off three disappointing seasons, which they missed the playoffs. I'm curious for your sort of process when you took over the job, when you were coming into it, that first off season, sort of what your, I guess game planner vision was, right? 'Cause I imagine, as I said, it's a pretty established group for the most part. Everyone's familiar with them. You coached against them in division for a couple of seasons with the Rangers, so I think you were probably pretty familiar with some of the strengths and weaknesses of the group, but kind of coming in and trying to either remodel the team's playing style within your system or your philosophy sort of, what was that process like for you in terms of having a plan and trying to execute it off the hop, or sort of coming in with an open mind and being like, all right, I'm gonna get a feel for this group and then tinker as the season goes along. I think it's a little bit of both, I mean, I think number one is you're coming in, I think it's just getting to know, getting to know the people that you get in that opportunity to work with. The players, number one, the staff, we get a new staff coming in. So I think there was a lot of time there in the summer while you're kind of working on the plan for the year and the starting point and working to build in the foundation. I think even more importantly, it's just starting to, to really try to just have conversations and start to get to know the people that, again, that opportunity to work together with that upcoming season and that was a big part of it. And then those conversations and those relationships, they build over time, you know, you don't form a relationship with one phone call or one conversation. It's something that takes time. But I think that's a big part of it. A big part of it is for me last summer, especially in terms of what I was hoping to do. And you know, within that too, you know, you're building out of coaching staff and you're establishing and working together, you know, to kind of finalize that plan for the start. But, you know, it's until you're all together until you're actually going. You know, I mean, that's when the work really starts and you build the foundation. And I thought we did that in training camp last year and then you want to build on it as you go through the course of the year. But I do think you also have to be open-minded to things and ready to adapt and ready to change. You know, I did for me coming in. There's a first year head coach in this league. I'd been a head coach at other levels. But, you know, and then from my experience of being an assistant coach in the NHL, you have ideas of, you know, how you think it might work. But I think you try to stay open to and ready to adjust because every group is going to be different. And until you actually get your boots on the ground and you're actually working together, there's things that, you know, you really can't know and you can't make assumptions on. I'm very curious about the offense. I know that, you know, one of your bread and butters was working with the PK and the special teams. But particularly the five on five offense. It's something I spoke about on the show regularly throughout the year, how much I enjoyed watching. The payments play in 25, 26. And the number is certainly bare that out, right? We could go across the board. You guys were second-in-slot shots, inner-slot shots, fifth-in-expected goals, seventh-in-offensive zone possession time across the board, top five, in scoring. And I saw a lot of stuff on tape that I thought was really interesting that you guys were doing. I'm always kind of curious, like how much of that is deliberate from your perspective in terms of either having a process or a plan in terms of what you want to do once you're in the offensive zone to manufacture some of these looks or how much of it is just sort of like, you know, stacking together some of these principles and practices and throughout the camp, but then ultimately allowing the players to sort of play in a more free-flowing manner and then tidying it up as the year goes along. Like how much of that do you feel like from a coaching perspective and an exes and owes perspective? You can sort of not micromanage, but kind of sink your claws into and try to steer the team in a specific direction. - I think offensively you want to have, you know, more principles concepts. You want to have a plan for predictability, especially in terms of support, especially under, when you're under heavy pressure, but you also have to, you know, you've got to keep the mind free offensively. I believe that here, I believe that in the past. Like, you know, it can't be offensively, it can't be paint by numbers where you're telling players they have to, especially the players at this level. I mean, there, you know, you've got some brilliant offensive minds. And so, you know, you don't want to take that away from them, which I think you with too much, you know, a structure offensively, I think that can happen. So we try to avoid that as much as possible. At the same time, you also, you know, there has to be the ability to read off of each other and they can't be complete chaos. And you also have to be, you know, make sure that the game transitions the other way, you're going to be in a good spot there. And with what you're doing offensively, it's not going to lead to, you know, a ton coming against you as well. And so that's the balance. I think that we're always looking at and trying to build in. And we're continuing to evaluate and trying to find ways to keep doing it better because I think every year, you know, teams adjust and teams get better and lead changes from, you know, year to year. And so I think you always have to be ready to, to adjust and keep adding to what you're doing. But I think, you know, it's also, I think we got, you know, the players here too. I think we got some guys that read the game really well offensively, obviously, and have a high skill set. And so when we do have the puck, we want to do everything that we can to have it for long amounts of time. And we want to put ourselves into the positions there. We're going to be able to attack and we're going to be able to get into, you know, the really dangerous ice. But again, I think it's more, I think on the offensive side of it, we want to be more about, you know, concepts and reads and reading off of each other. And we don't want to get to the point there where, you know, we're, you know, maybe hesitating or unsure because, you know, the coaching staff is putting too much, too much structure that way. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this. I had Jared Bednar on back in April. And I floated this by him. And he had some interesting thoughts on it. Some curious to see what you have to say about it. Whether it's because of the success of the hurricanes, if I didn't, obviously they ultimately wound up winning the cup this year with how aggressive their defensive zone scheme is, right? With that sort of like all out pressure where they're pursuing the puck, they're not really getting into a defensive shell as much as men on men trying to attack you for his turn over as high in the zone and then attack off the counter. Something I noticed that you guys did on tape a lot was sort of leveraging that maybe against opponents at times where you would kind of like deliberately work the puck along the wall or sort of peripheries, drag and offender out there and then attack that vacated space within. And I think that's why you were able to generate so many inner slot shots. So I know you being modest as a coach and not talking that much about the actual sort of elements that you implemented in it. But I did see a lot of that on tape in terms of maybe exploiting the way the game's being defended now and then having success doing so and creating these efficient looks at such a high volume. - Yeah, I think that players working, it's as much systematic as working to support and recognizing pressure and recognizing what kind of pressure the opponent's putting on you and then being able to attack off of that. I think anytime, I think you see it during the regular season and the playoffs, it's hard to create offense when teams are right in front of you and full defense of structure. So I think any time that you can work to attack it, whether it's relieving pressure and going or off of puck recoveries any time you can attack and teams aren't in that full defensive structure. It gives you an advantage. But I think a lot of that really that what you're looking to and what you saw is players working to support for each other, putting themselves in good positions and then recognizing those times when they can't attack. - Now, Dan, you led some very successful penalty kills in New York and Nashville. Then last year with Pittsburgh, you guys finished sixth and PK percentage. I wonder what are some of your overarching philosophies around the modern penalty kill with respect to formation, puck pressure, pushing for offense when necessary, like stuff like that. What are some of those really high level things that you like to see in your PK? - Yeah. Well, in terms of structure, I was just having this conversation recently with somebody, it's amazing for me how much, even since my time as an assistant coach in Nashville, like penalty kills have changed. You go back to those years early on, most teams in terms of their in zone structures, a lot of that push down look. And so four rotation, the four applying pressure down, pushing down these days. saying closer to the net and now you're seeing across the league. I mean, it's a lot more of a straight line approach, you know, whether you call it a diamond or your straight lines, but it's more direct. So it's not much pushing is not much angling, which is interesting. It's just it's different, but it's, it's, it's, you see those trends in the league and like, you know, if a team has success doing something, it's, you know, everybody's watching and say, all right, well, maybe it's a work for us and that eventually it evolves a couple of years later. You got most of the league. It seems like it's doing it that way, which is, it's just interesting. And then I'm sure it'll continue to change back. Somebody else is pushing down. And but in terms of, you know, I don't have one, one way of for me, especially with my time in Nashville and New York using those as examples as an assistant coach, like, you know, we changed things up from the group, you know, that what we did in Nashville is different than what we're, we're looking to do in New York and part of that was, is personal based and part of that is also, you know, you look at things that work and you make changes and, and I don't think that's a bad thing. And so, you know, I don't have one set way. I didn't have one set way of saying like, this is the only way that you can kill penalties. It's the same thing with the other systems that there's more than one way of doing things. I think you got to recognize, you know, what the strengths are of your group. Number one, and work to make sure that the systems that you're putting into play are ones that are going to be, you know, they're going to fit your group and put the players in so that, you know, at the play to their strengths. And so, you know, if you're built one way, then there's, you know, you might kill penalties certain way. And if you're built a different way, you might change it because of that. And even over the course of the year, too, I think sometimes you'll find that, you know, because there are different ways of doing things, making those changes and just trying to see what the best fit's going to be. In New York, we were way more straight line pressure there. We used some different four checks, you know, between a one three and a one one two into a box. And so, you know, and even from those two years in New York, like within our in zone planning, like there was things that we changed based off of, you know, from year to year, in part because of personnel and in part because, you know, we're just trying to evolve and, you know, maybe certain things that we didn't like and trying to make adjustments that way. And so, I think it's always interesting going into a season to see like what teams might change a little bit, you know, what teams might make those little adjustments with teams are changing just because it's for the sake of changing or based on new personnel or different trends that are going to, you know, you're seeing in the league and, yeah, we'll see here in about, you know, a little bit, you know, in terms of teams are doing, you know, I mean, you look at Carolina, for example, I still think, you know, they're the extreme in terms of that, you know, straight line direct pressure, you know, and it's, you know, I think that you've seen a lot of other teams in the league now, you know, trying to kind of go a little bit more towards that, whether it's that is extreme as they are, or some middle ground fitting their group, but I think you've seen more and more of that, you know, especially in the last few years. I think it's undeniable that PK's of in general got more aggressive. I wonder in the off season, do you start running through the tape and thinking more, you know, just like an ideal PK, if we had the ideal penalty killers, how would I do this? Or is it just one of those things where you're almost reacting to the power play a lot of the times where, you know, if you try to dictate things as a PK too much, you're putting yourself in an in a disin advantage because they just, they have more players on the ice. Like what's the thought process on sort of like, I suppose trying to be innovative on the PK when like at the end of the day, the point is to keep a puck out of your net. Yeah, oh, I think it's about, you know, I think it's, I always think it's, it's a good thing. It's a little bit maybe it becomes, you know, as you move up levels, especially as you get into, you know, this level or just pro hockey in general, obviously the stakes are higher. So sometimes I think from a coaching standpoint, there's potential, I guess, for maybe a little bit of hesitation. Or when do we, when do we want to try this? What are the right times? When are we going to add this in? And even within the lack of practice time, it's tougher for coaches at other levels. Like I would be, you know, and I'll use the example of coaching, you know, a junior and coaching at the NTDP. And especially at the NTDP, like, you know, you got to try everything. You know, you could be at an idea, you could throw it out there, which is great. And from living that for a few years, I would highly encourage coaches at those levels of junior. I think even, you know, college, the stakes are obviously higher, but, you know, junior and down, like try a way, you know, because you never know. And I found there were some things too that you were able to, you know, you could kind of go to an extreme and maybe you're looking after, you know, a little while, you might say, okay, we've got to pull it back a little bit, but you can try those different things to see what works. And even here, like if you're going to, you know, if you have, I think that there's, it's just about the timing of it. And number one, I think it's always, you goes back of what's going to fit your group best. And from there, it's, you know, trying to just put players where they're in a position to play their strengths. Do you find that, you know, obviously, this is a necessary universal cross-linked, but I feel like generally we've seen offenses that are boon right now, right? Like the scoring rates are up, point totals are through the roof, safe percentage is down for golees. It feels like part of that is all the influx of skill we've seen in Trillee, some of the training and stick technology and all of that. But I think part of that is the way teams are operating as well. And maybe that speaks to some of this PK philosophy in terms of, I guess, coaches at the NHL level being a bit more willing, maybe to embrace that unknown that you're speaking of or kind of like increase the risk profile, because I think previously teams might have gotten a bit too conservative in terms of getting into those defensive shells or just trying to avoid disaster and now pushing maybe a bit more for offense, even when you're down a man. And it might lead to more goals against, but as long as it's a net positive, it's a win for your team. And I feel like we have sort of seen that across all phases, 515 special teams throughout the league. Do you feel that way and kind of not only watching your own team, but other teams across the league last season? Yeah, I mean, I think there's, I see it with the players. I mean, the skill levels really high right now. And I mean, and you're seeing it across the lead too from, you know, you got some players there, you know, coming in and they're getting close to, you know, late 30s, even in the 40s, they're still playing at a really high level. Guys like Sid and Gino, you got these, you know, top players in the league here with the, you know, that are, you know, I don't know. And there are early 30s and he got these young guys that are coming in the league too, which, you know, with, you know, really high skill sets. And so I think the league across, you know, multi-generations of players that are currently playing and playing at really high levels too. I mean, it's one of the things that I think is making the makes the game really exciting. And so, but the skill sets really high. And these guys, I think, is between the skill set and just the, their ability to, to read the game offensively, the positions they put themselves in. Yeah, and I think you're seeing that it's obviously power play. It's five on five. It's, you're even seeing it on the PK, some two with teams that are, you know, able to attack and they don't need too much. But as soon as they see that window of opportunity, they're going in their attacking. And so, I don't know if it's so much a systematic thing. I think that's, I mean, I think from team to team, everybody's going to try to kind of have, you know, their playing style and the things that they want to emphasize. But I do think, you know, you're seeing a really high skill set right now. I'm really high. I think offensive IQ. And I think you're seeing it from, you know, just again, like I said, all these different gunning generations players that are currently in the league. So you brought up Crosby there about a minute ago. And that's just, you know, I've got to ask about them. This is, I'm sure you get it every single interview. What's it like to work with Crosby? You like everyone else in the hockey world have a particular impression of Crosby, you know, from the outside. But then you got a whole year on the inside, seeing them day to day. I wonder what you learned about Sid, the player and the person over that full year. And, you know, if I can put it another way, what do we, what do you appreciate now that you couldn't possibly have appreciated before because you weren't up close with them? Yeah. I do, I do get this question basically every time. And understandably so. And I think I usually also respond with, you know, like just talking about how, yeah, when you're on the, you know, outside of this organization, especially working in this league, and, you know, you get to be around, you know, whether it's players or other coaches that have been around them. Just the way that they, prior to being here, just, just that impression of hearing other people talk about them. And, and just, just such high regard. And the impression that they, you know, across the board, anybody who, whether it is just a short amount of time with them or somebody that had played, you know, multiple seasons with them, the way they talked about him in terms of, you know, as a person, as a competitor, as a teammate, as a, you know, as a member of this organization. Like it's, you know, it's just, it's at a different level. And then, you know, you get an opportunity to, you know, be here in the organization and working together. And it's very quick to understand to understand why people speak like that about, and it's just, it's that day to day. It's that's the biggest thing. It's just that day to day drive, that day to day, just commitment to excellence of just trying to find that something that it's gonna continue to elevate for him for the organization. And so it's at a different level, and that's why I think people speak like that. I can see it now because it's so, it's so uncommon. And it's just such a high level. - Well, Krosby, Mark and Latang have obviously been there for a long, long time now, but the roster around him has changed quite a bit, specifically over the past year to, I've talked a lot on the show about how, you know, Caldue this has probably been one of the most active GMs in the league in terms of facilitating trades and making pickups and trying to sort of retool around them in this asset accumulation phase, the penguins were in prior to last year, and it wound up resulting in you guys using, I think, 40 different skaters last year, four different goalies. Once again, this summer, there's gonna be a bunch of new names coming in from Krosbynko and Nick Roberts and to Kaden Korazag and Trevor Ben Reams that you go on down the line. I'm kinda curious, not only in terms of the, I guess interplay between coach and GM there, in terms of the front office identifying players, bringing them in, and then it being up to you as a coach to actually put those players in a position to succeed to fill out that vision of the GM, but then also, I guess, maybe some of the challenges of a rotating cast of kind of mixing and matching and having a bunch of different players to integrate into the lineup 'cause I know that coaches probably value pretty highly continuity and consistency, and when there's that many different names and you phases, I imagine that can be a challenge at times. You guys went through that quite a bit last year and pretty much regardless of who stepped into the lineup, you wound up finding a way to use them to their full capabilities. So I'm kinda curious how you sort of view your role as a bit of a conduit, I guess, between the front office, off the ice, and then the players on the ice. - Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, the communication with Kyle and everybody in the management has been outstanding. I mean, just, I mean, it's from day one, you know, and the day-to-day, I just being updated on things, you know, just everything across the board and communication in every guard is so important. And so I think obviously made my job, especially my starting point a lot easier just because of, you know, how open and all the information that's been coming my way from Kyle and all the conversations, that piece has been great. You know, my job is the coach and that's what I wanna do. And so, you know, I'm always, anytime, if somebody wants an opinion on anything, I'm more than happy to give it or to work to get the information so I can give it. But my job and my focus as a coaching staff, our job and our focus is to work with these players on the ice and to help the players to continue to take steps and to look to maximize each individual and to work to bring our collective group together and to maximize that. And so over the course of the season, that's part of it at ProVocchi. It's you're gonna have players might come and go. There's gonna be some movement guys coming up and down whether it's injuries or trades or whatever it might be, those things are gonna happen and when they do, it's an opportunity for somebody else to come in and it's an opportunity for us as a coaching staff to continue to find ways to maximize that player and find the best fit for that player and how we can implement that player so that we can maximize our collective group. And then we try to do it again the next day. And so I like, I love coaching, I love coaching and I love that part of it. But that's what I wanna do. It's, I think that there's, I think Kyle and his pro scouting staff and our management staff, like I had a lot of confidence in them from day one, prior to us ever really working together and now you go through a year together and you're gonna see how that process really works and how it worked and how it unfolded last year and all that's done is I think continue to strengthen us as a group and as an organization. And also for me from what I said, just continue to build even more confidence in what that process is because I saw how it was and I saw how it worked. And so now I'm excited for us to continue to work together and as an organization we're to continue to take steps. - You mentioned maximizing the potential of some of these acquisitions. I wonder like some of, you could maybe label some of these guys for the last couple of years as sort of calculated that's made by Kyle Dubis, like you know, Mantha, Chinacov, Brazo, Slaughter Blom coming in, who's Manca, were there established? They're not entirely polished as players. They maybe need a change of scenery but there's like, there's something there that we've seen at the NHL level and they're in their prime. I wonder, how do you approach that certain type of player in terms of integrating him into the lineup? In terms of maybe just your coaching, the sort of individual coaching, do you focus on accentuating their strengths, you know, putting them with the right linemates? Do you try to maybe round out their game in a way that maybe previous coaches weren't able to tap into? What sort of approach with the type of guy that shows up that, you know, just let's just use Chinacov as an example. How did you approach that, you know, that first month or so with him? - Yeah, I do it's a little bit of everything you just mentioned. You know, I think you're looking at, you know, definitely want to look at, you know, what those strengths are. You know, what it is that they got them to where they are. I mean, to be in this league, obviously, to even be considered for this league, you know, like, yeah, there's a lot of great things in your game. And so, you know, I think, you know, within that in recognizing those strengths, you want to put players in positions where they can be successful. You know, with that, you know, there's only, you know, there's only, obviously, so much ice time. There's only so much ice time in your top six. There's only so many spots on a power play. There's so, there's other factors that are still at play that you're always trying to balance. But I think to the best that you can, you want to, you know, I think, want to put them in a position where they can earn that. Like, it's up to the players that to go out there and they still have to do it. Like, you know, there's a starting point for everybody. If you're talking about, like, in season, somebody coming in. There's a starting point for everybody in a training camp. But from there, like, they have still have to earn it. And then there you want to continue to build on those strengths and continue to, and find ways to help them work on those areas of strength. I think, you know, I think everybody wants to get better. You know, that's a consistent across this league. These guys are as driven as they come. You're not going to get to this point without that drive. And so I think it's wanting to help them find that. Those ways that within their game, the areas that they want to improve on, that we can work together and continue to improve and make, you know, chip away. I think sometimes when you think about, you know, help working with the players always, what don't they do? And I think you want to find those areas that they can improve on, but I also think you can't forget about the things that make them special and continue to help them grow in those areas that make them special. And, you know, I think part of it is a coach is, you are trying to, you're always balancing those combinations, pairs, lines, you know, putting, again, trying to find those right fits. So that players can, you know, play to their strengths and be the best version of the day can be. And so that's a factor as well that I think is always in play. And it's ever changing. - Yeah, I'm always curious about the coach's role, like in game in terms of usage and the amount of thought that gets put into it because obviously, it's very free-flowing and fast, and when you're in the action, there's a lot going on, but I didn't notice you guys where arguably the most either extreme or deliberate, however you want to phrase it, in terms of deployment in the league, right? I think you had a pretty clear plan in terms of how you wanted to use your various lines to leverage their respective skills to provide the most value or contribution to the team. And I was looking at this in terms of, like, regular forwards last year, if I won five, your fourth line of Lizard Duer and Achari was one, two, and three in terms of the lowest percentage. All offensive zone starts and then Chinaka of upon arrival and Balkan were fifth and seventh or something out of 384 forwards in most or highest percentage of offensive zone starts. And so I think that's pretty self-explanatory in terms of the roles that you envision for those players, but I'm curious if you have any other thoughts in terms of how that execution actually happens on a game-to-game basis and then just that whole process in general of having a plan for those players and then actually just kind of seeing it out from period to period and game to game. - I mean, it's good to have a plan to start, but you also have to, you know, within game two, you gotta be ready to adapt and adjust. Yeah, and I think it's, you know, as coaches we're trying to get better every year and I think it's something to, you know, we can continue to just work to, you know, put these guys in the best positions possible, whether it's based on zone starts, based on, you know, if you are matching, how you're matching, just, you know, get, put them in that position so they can be successful, you know, and you mentioned those odds line. Like they did, they had a lot of decent starts, but they were, I think they were unbelievable for us last year. I think they were, you know, I know they were to get referenced there as a fourth line and maybe they get to point some games fourth, but I mean, they're not what you're thinking of as a fourth line. I mean, that's more of an identity line than anything in the way they played, they were awesome for us and they took a lot of pride. in their role. It's not easy either. I mean, literally they go, they said more G's own stars as you said, but like sometimes that they'd be in the G's own and they'd, you know, get it right out of the zone, right up ice, get a shot of that, go, it holds onto it now, I'm changing, I mean, that kind of sucks, you know. But they were awesome with it, you know, it's like, they were great. And they, you know, it's, they just took so much pride in that, in that role and that job. And they created a lot of offense for it too, you know, it just off of the forecheck in, in zone, they could, they, they just continued, I think, to evolve as a line as the year went on. And I think that's, you know, I think as a culture, it's something that's important. You want to, everybody wants to, everyone wants to feel like they're making contributions. You know, everybody on the ice, every staff member, like that, that's, it's huge. I think you have to have that and you have to feel that. And I think part of the, where I can potentially help with that too, is just making sure that, you know, players are in a position there where they, they got an opportunity to go out there and earn those roles and earn those jobs and, and go out there and, and make contributions that are going to lead to the team's success. Listen, dad, you don't need to extol the virtues of Blake Lizot here in the PDO case, we do that plenty already. So our listeners are very familiar with everything you're saying there. Um, you deserve a man. You said we'll line everybody. They were awesome and, you know, it's, uh, yeah, all those guys, they work. I'm curious how you see the benefit of being a, a first year head coach, but particularly with the organization in terms of coming in, maybe having a fresh approach and fresh message. There were times throughout the year where I think the players even publicly spoke to the benefits of that and kind of feeling like, you know, you coach comes in, they have a clean slate to prove themselves with that coach to earn that ice time and that responsibility and then thrive within it. I think that Eric Carlson is a great example, not that you necessarily needed to prove himself, but after a couple of downsies and bias standards, he really rounded back in a form last year, particularly post Olympics where he was one of the most productive players not only at his position, but in the league in general. Um, now you're going into year two. I'm curious kind of how that, that works within staying fresh. I guess and sticking to your principles and your philosophies and trying to build off last year, but also, um, not getting into a spot where your, the message is getting stale somewhat, I guess, like keeping that, that era of freshness with the players still intact after getting through that first year with them. Yeah. I think it's, you know, last year, as I, as I mentioned, you know, we came in that so coaching staff together looked to set a foundation and build off of that, and now we want to continue to grow. Um, and I think, you know, take steps based off of last year. So I think there's a lot of work to do here. Um, a lot. And so it's just going to be, you know, again, making sure that, um, you know, we get another training camp and I think for everybody too, it's a, it's a new season. Everybody across the league is feeling that like we got to reset the foundation. We got to rebuild on that. We got to make sure that it's even stronger this year than it was last year. Um, in terms of keeping it fresh, I have, I, yeah, I mean, I, I get, I get bored pretty quick. I feel like if I try to do all the same things. And so, you know, I think we take the summer and, you know, we try to, we look at different things that, you know, we can add, we look at different things, the ways that we can improve. Um, I'm looking at different things that, you know, I'll be able to do a year or two and I don't want to keep it the exact same. I don't think it's, it's, it's that balance. You don't want to stray too far away from the things that, you know, um, you can't stray too far away from, you know, any principles like you got to be true. I think that your values is, um, you know, I think I say that for me personally, but also as an organization like we coaching staff, we have to stay true to that. But I think you're always looking for little things that you can do to keep it fresh within, um, while keeping, you know, that foundation and those values and the things that are most important the same. Uh, and it's, yeah, it's not always the easiest thing to do, but I do think it's important. Um, you know, I think it's, you know, I think you guys, if you do the same thing over and over again again, it's maybe that excitement's not there. So sometimes it's just finding, finding new ways to do some of the same things that makes us. Speaking of the, you know, idea of staying the course or mixing new things in, I wonder what the pens will look like next year in terms of the offense and the types of looks you're getting just because, you know, the year before you joined, the penguins finish 30th in the NHL and scoring chances generator off the rush. When you join this past year, you guys went all the way up the fourth in the entire NHL. So I don't know how much of that is Dan Mew's hockey like no matter what the roster is, no matter what players are at his disposal, his team is going to be up tempo, his team's going to push the pace or is a lot of it, hey, we have to play a specific way in order to get the most out of this particular group. Can you unpack that a little bit in terms of how good you guys were off the rush in relation to sort of your philosophy around offense and potentially what it's going to look like this coming season? My other number one is the players, I mean, they're the ones out there playing the game. And so they're the ones I didn't get any of those scoring chances. This staff, that's them, that's execution, I think that's them, you know, across the board. And I mentioned to that, I think, you know, you know, in the entire group, you know, I think that it's forwards the deed to get the way they got involved. And so that's on them and them playing. Number two, you know, there, it's it's it's a coaching staff. It's us that are putting that together, you know, I got to really, we I'm very fortunate here, the people that I get to work with every day. And our group that, you know, I work together with. And so like, there's a lot of ideas that are putting the play in between the coaching staff here. And everybody that's involved in the coaching staff are player development staff and the ideas that they bring to the table are age of staff. And like, you know, there's a lot of conversations there. And I steal shit. And so I've stolen stuff there from other staff and from from he's closely team. And so, you know, like that's that's all of us. I think the in terms of working to put together an initial plan in working together with the players who also have given some great ideas in regards to that. And then they go out on the ice and play. And so, you know, I think that that's again, it'll always go back to the players because they're the ones doing it. In terms of going in the next year, I think there's always things, you know, I think we improve in some areas there offensively. We have other areas that I feel like we can definitely continue to be better in. And so I'm not going to necessarily go into any detail here today, but we can improve on those and same thing on the defensive side of the pop. You know, there's some of these some areas that I think we can and adjustments that we hope to make to improve in some of those areas as well. You can tell us, Dan, don't worry, no one's listening. It's mid-August. It's just the three of us, friends chatting. I'm curious, you know, going from the various roles that you've occupied along the way to this point, right? Your work with the USHL and NTDP being an assistant with the predators and the Rangers to now being an NHL head coach. How much is your workflow changed over those various roles in terms of either the day-to-day responsibilities or how much you're either having or willing to to delegate to your assistance and the rest of your staff and those people that you mentioned that you work with to kind of facilitate it because obviously there's only a certain number of hours every day and there's only so much you can do as one person. And I can speak for myself in a much smaller role in terms of being a perfectionist and being on willing at times to maybe delegate to my detriment. I'm kind of curious as an NHL head coach, like making sure it all kind of fits all those pieces in the puzzle and having everyone involved and also making sure that everything's, I guess, is optimized or as efficient from a workflow perspective. Yeah. I mean, I think when you change roles, it obviously changes kind of what your day-to-day is. I mean, you change roles. It kind of changes what, you know, what's going to keep you up at night. And so like the things that are really on your mind and make things that kind of are at the at the front that you're focused in on, I think that definitely changes. You know, in terms of the delegation, I think that's I learned a lot from Peter LaVie Lette working with him in New York and in Nashville and I think he's incredible with it. You know, I think that delegation isn't so much it's not just, you know, it's not to get things off of your plate as much as is to kind of, you know, spread things out and get different responsibilities to people who, you know, are going to be able to take them and take pride in the insider about that opportunity to take those responsibilities. And so it's something I'm not definitely not perfect at or if they continue to improve. I think within the head coaching roles that I've had, you know, going back to coaching junior, I was probably my first head coaching job. It was probably really bad at it. I think I got a little bit better at it at the NTVP. I think I learned a lot about it working for LaVie and I think I still got to probably get a little bit better at it, but to continue working progress. Speaking of your junior days, I actually talked to your old assistant Peter Manino before this conversation yesterday and you shared a couple stories and one of them was that, you know, in a way to illustrate that you never really leave the ring. He said that one time, he accidentally stepped on you while you were napping on a mattress in some sort of like side room changing area reserved for the coaches. Can you confirm the story that you on a game day did not leave the ring? So you're probably there for like 16 hours or something. by the end of it. Yeah, he might have stopped on me. Yeah. I don't want to entirely remember that, but I don't remember him stepping on me. But, uh, yeah, he said, so I'll go with that. But you, you, you would keep an air mattress at the Chicago Steel Arena, just in case. Yeah, I think there I might. Yeah, there's like a pull-up calc inside of the shop. I love it. Go ahead then. Well, I was going to ask you kind of related to that, you know, the league is shifting to 84 regular season games this year. It's already such a grind throughout the year. I think last year in particular with the Olympic schedule, your guys march schedule where I believe you played like 18 games and 32 days and 15 or 16 of those were against teams in playoffs spots. I guess kind of how you as a coach navigate some of those challenges of such a busy schedule where you have so little time either between games or on the ice with players, finding different ways, I guess, to either get your message across or work on things as the season goes along and just kind of some of those either really condensed pockets in the schedule or maybe when you actually have the benefit of a biweek or, you know, three days off because you guys did have a very good schedule. Whenever you had the benefit of a couple of extra days off, I think it was like 12, 13 and 2 last year when you had two plus days off between games. And I'm sure some of it is a byproduct of a relatively older team being fresher and being ready to go full blast, but I also attribute some of that to either preparation or, you know, whatever you want to say from a coaching perspective of making sure you've got the right game plan for whatever team you're facing on that given night. Yeah, I think you have a plan to start the area of a plan from week to week, month to month, and then you just got to be ready to do it just based on where the group's at. And I think you just got to constantly be evaluating it. I mean, the schedule is, you don't control that. Once it's set, it's set. And so this is what we have to work with. And I don't think, you know, you can't be looking at it or making excuses or blaming the schedule. Everyone's got travel. Everyone's going to have segments during the year that are a little bit heavier than others. And so it's a waste of time to to complain about it or worry about it. You just, you know, you figure out what's what's going to be the best plan of attack. Have a plan and then be open to reevaluate in that plan. And if it's, if you've got to make some adjustments or add some extra time off or, you know, adjust the day, you know, as it gets closer, that's what you do. And so we got some great people here, you know, it's some unbelievable minds, some unbelievable human beings that I get at the chance to work with every day. You know, our leading player performance Rich Rosenberg is incredible. Just working with him this past year, like we're constantly talking every single day, multiple times a day about kind of what's going to be the best thing for the whatever it is it's coming up. And so that's, that's the approach, you know, I think it's setting the big thing is just continuing to, to be open and figuring out what's going to be best for the group. I got to ask you about the most eyebrow raising, signing of the summer perhaps, you know, depending on your perspective in NHL fandom, but Billy Covenin signs an eight year deal paying $4 million per season. People outside of Pittsburgh don't know him super well. He's a relatively unknown commodity league wide, but I mean, clearly the pens see him as a core piece. What do you like about Billy's game currently and what kind of player can he blossom into in, say, two to three years? I mean, I think you see that that offensive skill set is ability to make plays, you know, I think that the offensive IQ, attacking space, finding space knowing where those next options are, you know, and his time up with us, you know, he did he created, he was involved in a lot of scoring chances, you know, it's a thing in hockey too. Sometimes they don't always go in or a goal he makes to say that, you know, stick it on in the last second, and that's that's part of hockey. And I think it's really showed that. I think you see the, you know, the way he's played over the last couple of years too in terms of the production at the American league level, you know, the things of the way he's able to impact the game there from an offensive standpoint. You know, and I think, now it's, we've strongly that there's going to be another level that he's going to be able to continue to take it to. And so, you know, I think he's putting a really good summer. And I know for me, I'm really excited to, you know, see everything here in training camp. You're going. All right, Dan. Well, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to catch up and chat with you. You got any plugs on the way out? I always ask my guests. I guess you don't have any shows or articles to plug. I guess just tuning into the preseason opener on the 21st and then the regular season opener against the flyers on the 30th are those your plugs. There we go. There you go. Good plugs. Awesome. Well, have a great season. Good luck with everything. And we'll hopefully have you on again next summer. Thanks for coming on. Absolutely. Take care, guys. Yes. All right. Well, there you have that. I feel like that was the definitive Dan Mew's interview. I haven't seen too many podcasts appearances for him, which is a shame because he's got quite the podcasting voice. I feel like, you know, that's something I take a lot of pride in. Here's a broadcaster. And I feel like he was almost putting me to shame. He was an audio mugging me a little bit. But no, I think he was great. And it's always fun. I love these coaches interviews, right? We've had the benefit and the privilege of doing a bunch of them so far with Carbury and in Bednar and he was great. I loved you and I, I should say, are going to stick around here for another 10 minutes or so and do a little bit of a capper, a little debrief on our chat with Dan Mews to close out the show. But I'm curious kind of what your, I guess, lasting impressions or biggest takeaways were from that conversation and getting to chat with him for both 45 minutes or so today. Yeah, I'd never interacted with him, maybe in a scrum once or twice, but certainly not one on one. And I did talk to one of his assistants as I mentioned on the podcast. So I had an idea of kind of his vibe and sort of what's important to him and all that kind of stuff. And he seems very humble. Like I think we tried to pat him on the back a few times and and he was deflecting and sort of like, you know, distributing the credit for certain things. But that's that's typical head coach and also typical Dan Mews as far as I can tell from, from talking to one of his assistants Peter Manino. And I really liked how he was talking about what a show for Peter Manino. I know the guys get many, many shutouts. Yeah, I don't know. I really like Dan's perspective on offense creation. And then also like it's, it is important to hear him on penalty kills. Because if you look back on his time with with the with the predators, his time with with the Rangers, like he was ahead. He was leading those penalty kills. They were always in the top five. Penguins have a great year last year. It's clearly a changing game in terms of the cat and mouse between PKs and and PPs. And I just I find it fascinating because the penalty kill you're like supposed to be conservative. I'm putting that in air quotes. But things have really been turned on its head lately. And he's clearly thinking a lot about that. Yeah. I mean, listen, I know that there's a bit of, it's a bittersweet a little bit, right? Because of how the penguin season ended losing to their rival, flyers, although despite that loss, like the first three games, were like in disastrous. And I did feel like they kind of found their footing or made some adjustments and really pushed the flyers towards the end of that series. But for ultimately losing in game six over time. So I think coming out of that season, I'm, I'm not sure what people's like impression of the year of the penguins was. But I think it's important to reflect on where we were at this time last year with them, right? Like how I guess gloomy the outlook was coming off of those three straight years missing the playoffs. The questions on, you know, where's Crosby going to go to close out his career? How's this all going to play out? And they still made a lot of trades along the way that were forward thinking, right? If you look back on the the Brett Kulak sequence of trades in particular, like accruing all those extra seconds along the way and kind of setting themselves up for the future while still competing and making it back to the playoffs. But I don't want how that year ended, I guess, to cloud what a success it was from just an entertainment perspective because it was a tough watch towards the end of the Mike Sullivan era there. And I was trying to hit on that a little bit and set him up with the, you know, first year head coach fresh voice, not necessarily singling out any specific interviews I heard from players talking about that phenomenon, but pretty clear one when you watched it in terms of the way the players interacted with them and just how sort of free and fun that year was of Penguin's hockey. And so I think they did a ton of really cool stuff offensively and I'm fascinated, you know, some different names involved this year. We'll see what it looks like ultimately on a pretty wide open Metro. But if they're able to do it again, I think it's going to be quite a testament to Dan Mew's and that staff because what they did last year was was pretty awesome from an offensive innovation perspective and how many good looks they were getting consistently regardless of the opposition. So I feel like we hit on that. And that was fun. I did enjoy. I think it was the Blakeless odd section when I started throwing out defensive zone starts. And we're going to post this on on YouTube for people to watch along with us. I feel like because of the ways you operate, like when I'm speaking, the camera just focuses on me. So you won't necessarily be able to see it. But like he had this knowing devilish grin the entire time I was doing that spiel. And he was very excited about that. So I feel like Dan Mew's is one of us. He's a he's a hockey nerd. And that was a really fun and chat with him about it. Yeah, there's something about this past season where it seemed like a couple of coaches really one extreme with their deployment, Dan Mews. being one, John Cooper seemed to do the same. And it's not like it's, this is groundbreaking. Oh, put your best defensive players out for defensive zone draws. Your best offensive players out for ozone draws. That's certainly not groundbreaking. But to the extent that they were doing it was pretty, pretty incredible. And, you know, I don't recall other seasons that being that extreme. I could be wrong. But, you know, you'd be watching Tampa games and they, oh, there's Gurg and Sins out there again with, you know, Gord and I came over to the last person on their line, on the somber, on the relief sledge. Yes. I was thinking of, of a leaf. And so yeah, like, it's funny, right? Because, and I tried to get at this with one of my questions about some of the bets that Dubas made and him integrating them into his lineup. Like, how much of this is, hey, these are the players I have. What can I do with them to, to get the most out of the entire team and win some games? Or how much of it is, you know, specifically coaching, which is kind of an impossible question to answer, teasing those two things out. But, I mean, it's pretty obvious that Mew's trusted that Lizard line to a great extent and lean on them heavily. Yeah. I tried to unpack it a little bit. I wish we'd done more. But ultimately, like, I get it in a public forum like this, you're probably going to get more kind of stock answers and not necessarily everything that you get if you, if you got beers with them and just talk shop off the, off the record. But I find that component of it to be fascinating, right? Like, when Kyle Hiresom last year, sort of the level of transparency, maybe in those conversations in terms of what the plan was, I don't think even Kyle Dubas would pretend like he saw last year coming for the penguins in terms of how effective they were in the year they had. Certainly, I imagine that had some level of hope that they'd be better with a new coach. But ultimately, with all those changes, they were making along the way, you know, you could view it as messing with a good thing. And I think maybe at times they, they went a bit too far. Like, I think the downgrade from Cool Act to Gerard did hurt them a little bit because they were never able to find a fit for Gerard playing with Lutang on that second pair. But, you know, when you're having the year they had where they're just consistently in the top three in your own division, you're looking to get ready for the playoffs and then all of a sudden you're making these like not selling trades, but kind of like still being forward thinking the way they did. I imagine the wrong hands with a different coach that might not have gone over as smoothly, maybe, and there would have been a lot of budding heads or contention between the two sides. And it feels like I imagine they did have a pretty high level of trust or connection and kind of being in sync in terms of what the long term plan is because they handled that and stride and still made the most of it. And when players came in they clearly had like a designed plan of either how they wanted to use them with Chinatown in terms of the offensive zone starts and where he slaughtered in the lineup, were like, you know, focusing on some of those strengths they had previously in different stops and just getting more value out of them than they got in their most recent team. Yeah, and Dubus and Muse didn't know each other before he interviewed, which is fairly rare in hockey. There's only so many elite level coaches and managers you do cross paths with pretty much everyone. So I find it fascinating that like Muse won him over in a pretty significant way. And, you know, he's walking into this situation where it's like, okay, Cindy Crosby has like, I mean, who knows how long he's going to play, but let's just say two, three, four years left. And we're going to give those sort of reigns to a rookie coach. It's in a way, ballsy in another way. It's just, and I don't think outside the box is the right way to put it because it's, it's not like Dan Muse was a nobody, but it's certainly like trusting your God, if you're Dubus and going like, yeah, this guy, we're on the same page. We're in sync. And if I go, you know, acquire Chinacov, like I know that he's going to put him in the best position to succeed. And oh, he's not going to be intimidated by the Crosby's and Malkins and Latang's of the world. And so it was, it was a bet like you've been mentioning. And I mentioned on the pod, too, or the interview, I should say, the calculated bets that Dubus has made. I mean, you could argue that Dan Muse was a calculated bet because if you go back to like when they, when he got hired, a lot of who is this guy? Oh, he didn't even, you know, we wasn't even in head coach in the HL. Oh, he's been an assistant in just two spots for, you know, I think it's a total of four or five years. Like, it's not like he's like this 50 year old guy that's been waiting forever. He's more of an up and comeer. But in a more subtle nuance behind the scenes way, he's, his star is originally, well, I did love what he set off the top about experimentation at lower levels, right? And having that freedom to, if you have an idea, just try it, see what sticks and then kind of go from there. And I think that's part of the shame of the coaching cycle in the NHL where it's like generally this one of 35 names that have coached for seven different teams previously. And so you bring them in and typically they're so far removed from that stage of their career that they're pretty set in their ways and how they sort of view the game. And, you know, there's certain coaches that have found ways to adapt and remodeled their approach and have success doing so. But I feel like that is quite a benefit for someone like Dan Muse to be relatively fresh in that regard in terms of how recently they were operating that way. And then being able to incorporate some of that at this level, like, I don't think the penguins had any expectations last year because of where they were at. But there was a certain level about it pressure to make sure you're not, I guess, wasting the final years of Cindy Crosby or getting to a point where it's so bleak and so dire that you're having to trade them just because there's a point of no return. And so, you know, we'll see what the final act is like. But the idea that you're going to kind of steer into that, I think, more gracefully as an organization is so much more clearly within a view right now than it was this time last year. Yeah, I mean, this time last year, maybe add a couple of weeks. I was at the player media tour in Las Vegas. And that's when the Crosby rumblings really started going with Perala Brun talking to Paprason and Brason going like, maybe, maybe he will play elsewhere before he retires. I can't remember the exact quote. But so that got things going. And then Crosby on the same trip was asked about the Canadians and the support that he gets from that fanbase. And I can't remember if it was the direct question was, would you ever consider playing there? But he sort of like entertained the idea of Montreal and obviously it's from Halifax. So there's a lot of buzz on like, what's going on with Crosby? And is this the time that Dubis and the penguins should move on from him just to sort of turn the page and give him that chance to compete for Stanley Cup. And then obviously, ironically, they make the playoffs sort of the Canadians. But it is kind of crazy. Like if you go back a year, like it's the penguins were in a completely different spot in terms of I suppose public perception. All right, buddy, that was a lot of fun. As I said off the top, it's very exciting. I mean, listen, these guests are great, but just having you back in the mix is a big boon for the PDO cast as well. It's great to have you off LTIR. We've got Scott Wedgwood coming on one day. He's going to be, should I say our player angle to this? I feel like goalies are almost their own unique animal that not even a player necessarily. It's very specific, but very excited to have him on our mutual friend Kevin will at least be very highly of him. And I think it's going to be awesome. So we've got him coming on Monday. And then you and I have a couple other guests lined up for the next coming weeks, leading up to sort of mid September. And when we get into full swing with the NHL season. So I'm really excited about it. I think Scott Wedgwood's going to be awesome. Yeah, he's one of the best quotes in the league. And he's very down to earth and just game to talk about whether it's like his background story, the mental side of the game, technique, what it's like to be teammates with Nathan McKinnon, you know, anything's kind of on the table. And the guy likes to chat like, there's maybe a handful of guys across the league that are in the sort of territory of him in terms of me just approaching them in the locker room. And knowing that it's going to be a nice chat where, you know, there's no sort of pretense. There's no guard up. It's just, hey, how's it going? What do you think of it? He's been on so many teams. What do you think of this new team back kind of angle to it? So looking forward to it. Okay, well, it's going to be a lot of fun. We've got a lot of cool stuff ahead. What are your plugs? Everyone just follow Matt is John. Listen to, listen to Matt is on the PDO cast as well. Hopefully we get you back writing soon as well and get you back in the mix as we gear up towards a season, but a lot to look forward to. My quick plugs as people watch and can see wearing one of these nice new PDO cast hats. We got the t-shirts as well. So if you want to get some merch to support the show and rep it, you can find a link. I think it's pinned to the Patreon page and find more information there. If you're a subscriber and you're listening to this, you can get a discount on all merch as well. So make sure you take advantage of that. But of course, the biggest perk is subscribing to the Patreon is that you will make sure you don't miss a single one of our shows this year. We'll still be doing the weekly shows on this free feed for our listeners throughout the season. But a lot of the good stuff is going to be Patreon exclusive for our subscribers. You'll get the ad-free version of every episode we do on there as soon as it's been recorded. So if you're fan of the PDO cast and you're excited about the start of the new season, then you're definitely going to want to join us there. You should also subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're finally getting into the habit of regularly posting shows like this one on there as well for you to watch so that you can see Danview smiling for yourself and all that's glory. While you're there, make sure to like the videos and comment on them. All that stuff is really helpful for helping us grow the channel. And I'd greatly appreciate that. All right, that's all we've got for you today. We'll be dropping the Scott Wedger episode we teased earlier on this feed tomorrow. And we'll have a couple new episodes on the Patreon throughout week as well so there's plenty of fun content coming for you to enjoy as we get into September and the opening month of the NHL season. Thank you for subscribing and listening to the hockey video. Cast. [Music] [Music]