Sum 41 - The Making of All Killer No Filler

[music] This is Karang's Inside Track, where the world's biggest artists tell the stories behind the most influential moments in rock history. I mean, all the lyrics in Fat Lip were just us just kind of having a good time. They were written really quickly. We were just sitting around and everyone was trying to come up with a line that was funnier than the other guy's line. And the doctor said my mom should have had an abortion. And I came from Steve O. You know, it was just a quick thought. And I don't think we ever really thought it would become such a main part of the song that it did. It's just one of those things. You know, you're just doing stuff and you're not really thinking about it. That was Derek Wibley. Frontman of Canadian Pop Punk bands Sum 41. Reflecting on the approach that defined the band's 2001 mega hit Fat Lip. And it's accompanying Tongan Cheek titled Breakthrough album, All Killer No Filler. And though the album would go platinum in the United States, Canada and the UK, a serious feat indeed, it was some 41 sense of humor that defined much of their early career. The four-piece celebrated friendship and pop punk goofiness on tunes that provided an entire generation of music fans with the perfect soundtrack to their own quest for good times. But some 41's story starts in the small Canadian town of Ajax, Ontario in the mid 90s, when Derek met bassist Jason McCaslin known to his friends as Cone and guitarist Dave Baxch on the first day of high school in Auto Shop Class. All three had cut their teeth in different dead-end bands and though each member had his own unique tastes, Derek loved punk rock, Cone loved grunge and alternative and Dave loved heavy metal, they bonded over their mutual love of music as a whole to become good friends. The following year, drummer Steve Yacht, aka Steve O32, entered freshman year and joined their friend group. Derek remembers just how the band eventually came together. There was no local rock scene whatsoever when we were in high school. We were kind of the only musicians in the school. Everyone mostly listened to kind of like, I don't know, 90s R&B hip-hop kind of stuff and we liked different forms of rock music. Dave was the best in his band, Cone was the best in his band and Steve O and I were already in some 41 and we just kind of like, you know, grabbed everybody that we thought was the best in our high school and we put it together. That became some 41. The band's name stems from the fact that they finally got together on the 41st day of their summer vacation, playing local gigs before graduating to venues in nearby Toronto. Those outside of their hometown came with some challenges, one or two of which were admittedly the band's own fault as Dave Baxter calls. We were in Ajax a lot so there was a lot of punk rock, metal, indie, like every type of music that you could kind of think of and we would all kind of gather and play at this one place called the Chameleon Cafe and it was kind of like where we would like cut our teeth in the local scene and stuff like that and then eventually we were able to play in Toronto and this and that but the scene for us was a little bit hostile, one because we were kind of like assholes, like we weren't mean, we just had this like us against the world mentality, right? Which I think is important as a band but the so we had like rival bands like there was a band called Clawzip Monster that we came up with and we would always fight for like local bands, local bands being on like big bands coming through town so like say God came through town. We'd be fighting with them for the opening slot in the bill but you know we didn't really put two and two together that they were actually the ones booking the shows so we would never get the shows. You know and like on top of that like we had indie bands just telling us that we were trash but we just we loved playing and when we would play the response would be great so we knew that we had something and we knew that we were having a blast. In order to take things to the next level the four friends knew that they needed to record a demo. So the band book Time at Metalworks the studio founded by Gil Moore, drummer of Canadian Hard Rock Heroes Triumph. Much of the music some 41 recorded there would form the basis for the band's first EP Half Hour of Power as Derek explains. Well the first thing we went in record it was half hour power and that was somewhat of an unintentional EP. We really went in to make a demo and we realized that we had a few more songs than we thought and it was actually sounding a little bit better than just a demo so we thought we might as well put out an EP. We knew we had enough songs for a record but like we said we just really needed something to get out there and start touring with while we finished writing for all killer. So we did half our power we went out in the road. I just kept writing in hotel rooms in the back of the van and tried to get enough songs to fill out an album. You know after about a year and a half of being on the road for half hour power we just decided that we should just go in and start recording for all killer. With 11 tracks of unpollished metal splattered pop punk half hour of power came to the attention of Island Records who signed some 41 and issued the EP on a subsidiary label in the summer of 2000. Island also set up a series of meetings with potential producers in order for the band to start work on their first bonafide full-length album. When they met Jerry Finn known for his work with acts like Green Day, Gugudal's, Jawbreaker, Pennywise and Rancid both parties just clicked. Dave picks up the story followed by Cone. I mean as far as how Jerry Finn came to be we were massive fans of his work already and we had to go through a ton of producers that wanted the record which was kind of like unheard for us. We had never been through that type of process before so we were actually going out for dinners with great producers, guys like Rock Vallo, Dave Jordan came and had some lunch with us and stuff like that. We ended up just having a blast with Jerry Finn because he kind of came in and had the exact same attitude that we had which was like listen I want to make the record we're going to have a blast I believe that records should happen naturally and unfold and his technique he was explaining to us about how he would instead of using all 24 tracks on an old 24 track analog machine which is what we used to record the record on. He broke it down to 16 tracks and that way the drums could sound fatter or warmer and you could get a good and great bass sound on that as well and you know just his approach we were like we hadn't heard of that type of thing before and it was kind of early with pro tools oddly enough and he was like I like to use pro tools as minimally as possible I like to get the band sounding like the band. So we just had a good time with him and he was like yeah let's do it and he didn't matter he was cool with coming to Canada and recording he just wanted to bring his gear and have a place to stay. So we were like yeah let's do Jerry Finn. Yeah I mean at that age we were pretty crazy. We were like I said fresh out of high school and we were you know we were torturing our hometown with a lot of different things you know like we documented on all the videos with the sport guns and the eggings and all this stuff. So that was just kind of our past time that that was just that abort because we lived in this you know hometown of you know small we didn't even have a movie theater at the time there was no downtown there was nothing to do. So we just found ways to entertain ourselves that we thought was funny on the side of you know pretty you know being very invested in being a band and wanting to be have a career in music which we you know at 19 20 years old you don't actually really think about those kind of things it's just what it is in the back your head because we had this chance we were signed now and we're going to do an album with Jerry so it was you know it was it was very real. And with a renewed sense of purpose the fledgling four piece hold up in their local studio and got to work writing as much material as possible to prepare for the recording process itself. Yeah kind of thought they all came together was kind it was a little bit pieces like I just said about the camellia cafe they had this warehouse in the back and so we kind of rented out a spot there and they're kept coming up with some demos and you know like first courses of songs and we go in pretty much every day and work on these songs and try and shape them to what they were and you know even when we started doing pre production with Jerry and Toronto we didn't even have you know Foulette wasn't even complete and too deep wasn't really complete we had probably six seven songs and we were kind of pre-prone those songs and then you know and just constantly writing more and rehearsing more as we went along. Foulette was kind of the last song that we recorded and in to deep wasn't even going to be on the album. So yeah it was it was just kind of pieces at a time you know we were only you know Steve was 19 or we were 20 when we were So, you know, we were pretty new to it all and we had recorded, you know, half hour power, but that was with our manager and, you know, so it was, this was different because we had this like huge LA producer up and we knew the expectations were higher. We were signed to Ireland and so yeah, we were working pretty hard and we were out of high school at that point, just at high school. So we all had, you know, basically like part-time jobs so we can basically just do whatever we wanted with the music. Ironically enough, the band haphazardly finished writing the eventual breakout single, Fat Lip, in the studio at the last minute. Here's Derek again. I think my favorite song for all killer would definitely be Fat Lip. It was the last song that I wrote for the record. I'd been working on it for about six months and I brought it to the guys about, you know, it was kind of half finished. We started working on some of the lyrics for the verses and once we got, we started taking shape, it became really exciting and I really wanted to go finish it and it took another few months to actually kind of, you know, come up with the rest of the song and the melody and some of the riffs and stuff like that. But then once it was finished, it really came together and just had so much energy. I don't know, we just felt like there was just something different about it from everything else on the record and it became my favorite song, you know, and then it became the first single. While working on the album, 32-year-old Jerry Finn pushed the band hard, becoming a father figure to the quartet in the process. Despite his considerable experience, he was also determined to allow some 41 to cut loose in order to capture their distinct personality. It also helped and he shared their sense of humor. Oh man, as far as recording with Jerry, there were tons of things that were hilarious. Jerry was just a hilarious and funny dude, so he always had you laughing and always had the energy in the room up. Even for something as simple as the beginning to crazy band-a-bunk face, right? We're like, "Jerry, just let us punch you in and we'll just punch you in each note." He's like, "No, shut up. You're going to play it properly. You're going to play it right and you're going to downpig it like the descendants do." We were like, "Oh no." In the end, that part now is associated with that memory. It just feels good listening to that and being like, "That's that time that Jerry really told me, "You really got to improve here." There was also a show we played at the Roxy when we were tracking down in LA. I played one of the best shows in my entire life. I was like, "Man, that's the greatest. I don't know if I'm ever going to top that." I walk out and I'm like, "Yeah, what do you think, Jerry?" He's like, "Your guitar tone is pretty shitty." I'm like, "What?" He's just like, "Yeah, man." It sounded like you were slapping the strings with a mackerel and it was not good. We got to work on that. From that moment, I really started taking guitar a lot more seriously. I thought at that point that I was on my way to becoming a really good guitar player. I didn't know shit. I was trash. Well, yeah. It's probably one of the more funer experiences recording that. It ain't being kind of our first big one. Jerry liked to party and we liked to party. It was a crazy time. I feel like we're constantly, he had his hotel and they backed on to this famous Toronto strip club called the Brass Rail. We were constantly going there every day or a couple of times a week at least. I remember one night we all went back to Jerry's room and we were all doing mushrooms. I think Jerry just decided he was going to go to bed. We ended up staying. He said we could stay and we just stayed in his room. He had to sweet so he went to his bedroom. We wanted to, the sun was starting to come up and we decided that we wanted to couch out on the balcony to watch the sun come up. We were trying to slam this couch through the door of the hotel room and it wasn't fitting. We had to take the feed off of it, took the feed off the couch, slammed it through the door and then we had these feet. We just basically threw those off. Twenty stories up into parking lots where cars were and kind of just hanging out, laughing and I remember Jerry waking up and kind of just like, losing his mind. Like what? He basically screamed at us like a father because what we had done, we basically kind of trashed his room as well. I think the other couch just returned upside down, tables on their sides. There's like a bomb hit the room when he came out and it was like six o'clock in the morning and he yelled at us so hard and when you're on mushrooms any little thing can set you off and good or bad. So we all got really upset about it and he went back to bed and we wrote him this little note saying how sorry we were and we kind of crawled into his room and stuck it under his pillow and then like tiptoed out of his room. And then we went in the studio and recorded it the next day. With the album completed the band prepared to head out on the road playing shows on the warp tour that summer. In April 2001, Fatlip, the first single from all killer no filler, hit the airwaves like a bomb. Nothing could have prepared some 41 for the insanity that would follow. The song was suddenly everywhere, topping the Billboard alternative charts and hitting 66 on the Billboard Hot 100, a major feat for a rock band in 2001. First, Cone recalls the song's impact followed by Derek. I remember full Fatlip was out first and right away K-Rock and LA picked it up and we knew just from talking to our label that's a huge thing. And being from Canada we didn't really know what K-Rock was but we quickly learned that it was pretty influential and influenced every other station in the country. So that was obviously the first big thing that happened and then when the album came out it just kind of took on this life that we didn't expect. When we first released Fatlip I didn't really know what to expect. I don't know if I really had any expectations. I kind of was trying to sort of play down my expectations and thought it's probably not going to do anything. We were an unknown band and we just had no idea where this whole thing was going to go. When it took off at radio and then at MTV it kind of spread and it went all over the world really quickly. And that was definitely something that we were not expecting by any means. We had no idea that it was going to go overseas. We were really only just thinking about North America and next thing we know we're hearing that it's doing well in Japan and all over Europe and places like that. And it was just really exciting. I mean all of a sudden everyone knew at least who we were all of a sudden. Whether they liked us or hated us all of a sudden people knew who we were. On May 8th 2001 all Killer No Filler was released internationally through Island Records announcing some 41's arrival on a world stage. The seeds of their success however have been sewn on a more local level during the course of three years of increasingly intense touring. Dave reflects on that time. As far as our release for All Killer No Filler when it came out we were just kind of thinking that we would be on the long road still because at that point we were still when we were tour would still sleep on people's couches. So we could run the extension cord into the house so we could power the van. And we didn't know that all this work that we had done leading up to All Killer just touring our cassette tape and then touring half hour power thanks to the Mighty Mighty Boss Stones for kicking off our life in the United States. And then all of a sudden we had been heavily touring. I'd say 200 days plus for about three years at that point and then two years it would have been two years. And before that it was just kind of like go for two weeks here, three weeks there and then All Killer dropped and just you could see this ground swell of growth. I first started to notice it when we were touring with a van. I believe it was catch 22. Older sky punk band and I noticed that the crowds were starting to sing the songs a little bit and then it all came to a head at Randall's Island in War Tour. We stepped out to one of the biggest crowds we have ever seen in our entire lives and we were on the side stage of War Tour. And I remember the pit being so big that it circled around the merch tents and back around to the front barricade around the soundboard and we were just blown away and we were sitting there and we were playing in front of like people that we grew up listening to, right? And you know afterwards we're sitting there talking to like Joe from the Vandals and he's like yeah I had to make sure my merch guy was okay because your crowd was trying to destroy the entire park and yeah like we had never seen anything or heard anything like that before and it was, that's the standout moment for me. Kohn also recalls the mania of that period for the band. There's certain points along the way when Al Killer was out that we kind of, I think, all realized this was going to be something kind of big. And one of them would have been Warped Tour. In 2001, we were playing the side stage at Warped Tour and we were on the whole thing. And we were getting massive, massive audiences all of a sudden. That was kind of an inclination because I knew that people, obviously, for some reason, want to see us. And we had done Warped Tour two years prior and it was something like that. And then, you know, other stuff like all of a sudden, we were touring Canada and we were playing hockey rinks like arenas. So that was big and then obviously, you know, and then we went to London, England and we were playing the arena there. So just, it started building and building and building. And we were just on the road so much and we were just seeing this thing kind of grow. But everything was happening so fast and you're so young and you're just in a different country every week. And you're never home and you're kind of getting exhausted. We were partying a lot. So everything just went by in a blink of an eye and then you get home and have to start work down on the next record and you're kind of exhausted. And you're just kind of still going because we have to do a turnaround really quick for does look infected after it was only been up about, you know, six weeks. So yeah, I think just things along the way started happening that we were starting to see it grow. For Derek, success came with the added pressure of being the face of the band. The weirdest thing was being recognized on the street for the first time for me. I think the song had been out at MTV for maybe about two weeks. And I was never used to, I never even expected to be recognized on the street. And we were walking down the street in Philadelphia and it was like just after sound check and we had a show that night and I was going to go do, go grab some food or do some shopping on the main street there. And after about a couple minutes, like people started coming up to me and then people started asking for autographs and it kind of just didn't stop that whole street. And I never experienced anything like that and I remember thinking, wow, like the power of TV, how instantly life changes, the second year on TV all of a sudden. Within the space of a few months, all killer no filler had sold over a million copies in the US alone. Its platinum status was also matched in Canada and the UK as some 41 found themselves playing increasingly large venues. In addition to the band's ability to write catchy goofball anthems, the individual personalities of its members contributed to their success. So, too, did their differing influences. Most specifically, their love of old school heavy metal. Here's Cone on the subject. Metal came in to our music pretty early on and I think a lot had to do with Dave. Dave was like his first band when he was 14, was a metal band, like a death metal band. And obviously I listened to a lot of Metallica growing up but the first metal album I ever listened to was Andrews' For All when I was probably 11. So Metallica was a big one for me. I didn't really know too much about Iron Maiden and you know, Jewish Precincts stuff till I was probably 16, 17 years old when I really started hanging out with Derek and Dave and Steve Moore and they were kind of like, you know, you have to check out Iron Maiden. Who they've actually found out from skate videos. Because they were watching skate videos, you know, watching, you see like Pennywise songs and my writing songs and all that stuff and Iron Maiden would come on. So, you know, I started acquiring a taste for metal back then but Metallica was kind of my first thing. But I was really into like through high school I was more into like all rock and like more like runners thing and even the post-crime stuff. And then I got into, then I got into really like, you know, obviously like I said this so count punk stuff, you know, effects and all that stuff. And then I got into, you know, the clash who's still like, you know, one of my favorite bands of all time in Runaan's and all that stuff is kind of a gateway to everything. So I listened to one thing and you figure out what came before it. For Dave, the Ajax Metal scene was particularly important to him while growing up, providing him with a sense of community and identity. Well, okay, a lot of people say that cliche thing where it's like, you know, this I didn't seek this out. But for real with metal, I didn't really, I didn't really look forward. It kind of just found me like I had two cousins that were playing metal. And they kind of influenced me to pick up a guitar and Ajax wasn't the Ajax wasn't the kindest place to grow up as a, you know, like a Guinees Indian family. But there was this metal community within Ajax that my cousins had tapped into where it was just like you could wear a shirt and you were part of the family. And we just, we would talk about metal, we would play metal, we would trade riffs back and forth. We for anybody that was starting guitar, we had this red profile strat copy that would get passed around to all the new guitar players. And it just kind of shaped the way that I appreciate and love music. And I always associate metal with how I was raised, which is, you know, a heavily family influence. Because that's the type of thing we grew up with. And that's the kind of thing my cousin brought me into. And that had a massive impact on me. Derek is also keen to affirm the band's love of heavy music while admitting that said love may not be reciprocated by metal fans. I don't know. I don't know what metalheads think of us. I would assume that their metalheads don't like some 41. But if there are metalheads out there that appreciate some 41, I think it's probably because they would understand that we appreciate metal music for real. And it comes from an honest place and we've always loved metal and it's never been a thing. There's no bandwagon for us to jump on. It's something we grew up with, something we grew up loving. And there's a reason why we, in fact, live we say made an increase for the gods that we praise because it's true. The heaviest moment on all killer no filler is the goofy iron maiden inspired metal charge of pain for pleasure. The last tune on the record, the track was accompanied by a suitably catch video that sees some 41 donning denim leather, spandex and wigs morphing into a spinal tap styled outfit. Pain for pleasure. The whole alter ego band thing. That was another one of those things that there wasn't a lot of thought put into it. It was that came about on the same writing session that we were sitting in the room coming up with lyrics for fatlet. I think we'd been spending a lot of time on fatlet and it was just sort of a break in that sort of thought process of, you know, I think Dave started playing a little guitar riff. Steve started jokingly singing over it. And within two minutes that song, it was a joke song that just sort of got written at the same time we were working on a serious song. That song was recorded at a studio called Signal the Noise. We were working with an engineer called Rob Sanzo. And we were just laughing at old like rock and roll videos and just being like, yo, how, how, like whose man is this like what is going on right now with this guy with the hair and this and that. So we still love the music. So we decided like, yo, let's just, let's just do the like be hilarious if we recorded a song like one of cooler bands like Iron Maiden. So because we truly are like our fans of Iron Maiden and love that band to this day. We came up with Pain for pleasure. And we just wrote this whole backstory to the band before the song was even written. And then we wrote the song like really, really quickly like just just EDC of course like the common like heavy metal triplets core progression right. And then Steve was like, I'll be right back goes to the bathroom takes a shit and like maybe 15 minutes later comes back with the lyrics for Pain for pleasure. And we were dying. We were dying like we were like the whole session. We were like, I don't know if, if we're ever going to top this song in our entire careers because it just felt so right. I think that was just sort of a breakup the mood because we'd been working on fat lips so long. And at the end of it, we just thought, well, we got to record this just for fun. We never thought we would put it out, but we were in a studio. So we thought we might as well. And the same thing with the video, I mean, when we shot the fat lip video, we were on a lunch break. And we happened to be going through the wardrobe and we found all these funny clothes and wigs like and we just started putting them on and we thought, wouldn't this be funny if we shoot our own video with our own camcorders for Pain for pleasure. So we started shooting that video just on our own in the director was in the middle of his lunch and looked over and saw us dressed up and singing along to this song. And he just thought, oh my god, this is so perfect. And he grabbed a real camera and jumped up and just filmed us doing this pain for pleasure. And we added that on to the end of the fat lip video and for some reason MTV played it and it became this thing and that's how Pain for Pleasure, the band got started. For all of the humor and hilarity associated with all killer no filler, the album is tinge with sadness following the passing of Jerry Finn from a heart attack seven years after the album's release. Derek leads the tribute to the band's producer, Confidant, Teacher and Friend. Well Jerry Finn, who produced all killer was a great producer, he was a great friend. We've all been really sad that we. we lost him a few years back. And I think we had a great relationship with him. He was perfect for that record. He was somebody who was just great to talk to about music, about recording. He taught me so much about producing and engineering. To a point where like even when I'm producing and recording records now, I still basically just do everything that Jerry taught me. And I still sort of feel like whenever I get stuck with something, and I'm working on something, a lot of times I find myself just saying, "Well, what would Jerry do or what would Jerry say to me right now?" And I would feel like I would figure it out because I know what he would tell me, I know how he would react. And I kind of feel like he's still sort of a part of what I do now. Finn's influence on the band has endured as Dave, Cone, and Derek all the test. For me, technically, the thing that I always took from recording with Jerry is that performance is everything. You can cut and paste and put it on the click as much as you want, but it just doesn't mean anything unless it's got feel, unless it's got a human touch, especially when it comes to something like guitars and bass, and drums, you really need those overtones. That's very tones from time to time. And if you're missing that human element to a record, you'll have a different sound, but you won't have a sound that sounds like some 41. Jerry was one of the most fun guys that had ever been around. He introduced us to so many things. Even other than music, I mean, tenacious D, he was really into, he was into Mr. Show. So he got us into all these comedy programs that we had no idea about, 'cause we were living in small town, Canada, which kind of helped shape our side of funny-ness of our band. And he was very laid back, and he was a guy that he would let you record and not breathe over your shoulder, but when you were done, you just kind of come in and check it out and have a couple of comments, but he was never just staring, breathing down your neck the whole time. He would just basically let you do your thing. And then he basically sitting in the lounge for while you're recorded with the engineer and come in, check it out, basically approve it, and/or change some stuff with you, and then on you went. So it was a pretty relaxed environment and a very fun environment, because he was such a, he was also a very funny guy. I guess because he was into all these shows, and he, you know, we just had a really good time, and he seemed a lot older than us at the time, but I think he was only in his wannies or maybe early '30s when we did him. You know, he was, you know, probably 10 years older than we were, but yeah, he was, he was really fun to be around. Part of being a great producer is just like, creating a great vibe for the artist. A lot of times producers sometimes don't even know how to do all the technical stuff, but they know how to get you to do what you need to do. I mean, Jerry was beyond knowledgeable about the technical side of producing, though. I mean, he was, he was so great at that stuff too, but he was also just great at making you feel comfortable. Today, as all killer, no filler heads towards its 20th anniversary, the band have had time to reflect on the albums, Eternal Appeal, as well as some '41s recently renewed popularity. For me, contemplating those things on why it still works, I couldn't even tell you, like this would probably be the first time I've ever really thought about that. I think the recycling of music, it's kind of almost like a 20 year process. When music hits the mainstream and then kind of goes away for a little bit, it takes a little bit for it to come back. And I think that the impact of all killer, no filler in 2001 to 2002, I think that it did make a wave big enough to last this long. And I think that things like social media, things like YouTube streaming services, I do think that those things have helped in a way to keep this band alive. Thanks to playlists, thanks to music videos that we were able to make. And just thanks to someone being like, "Hey, you should check out some '41." And then instantly you can check out some '41. - I don't ever think about things like legacy when I think about our band. I don't know. I don't think about is there a legacy of all killer or some '41? It never interests my mind, really. I just think it was a record that we made that at the time was the best thing that we could have done. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) This episode of "Karang's Inside Track" was narrated and executive produced by me, Ethan Fick-Sill. It was produced by Cat Jones and written by Cat Jones and Phil Alexander. It was edited and mixed by Curen Kay at full English post in Brooklyn, New York. All music was composed and performed by Ben Hutchison and our logo was designed by Matt Dyksel. Special thanks to Mark James, Chris Nerry, and Chris Crobaton. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to Inside Track wherever you listen to your podcasts and visit Karang.com for more information on Sum '41. (upbeat music)