Sukkot 5787: Joy in the Unknown.

This episode is lovingly dedicated to the memory of Barbara Hammer Zucconali-Vracha. Make her memory be for a blessing. Welcome to the Pardase Parshah podcast. My name is Svihershfield, and I have the distinct privilege and pleasure of discussing the profound analysis and deep insights into the Parshah from my wonderful colleagues at the Pardase Institute. So glad you could join us. Hello, everyone, and welcome to a really special podcast. Special for a lot of reasons. First, we are deep in the Haggai Tee Shre in the holiday season. We have made our way through Losh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and now we are approaching Sukot. And I can think of no one I would like to chat about Sukot more with. Then, Rabbi Ruvain Margaret. Now, Ruvain is the, let's call him the Director of Education for Pradesh North America. He's in between titles right now, but he says that's someone I can use. Ruvain is a teacher and a mentor and trains educators and runs programs. And most importantly, he's a Pardase alum. And he was even in my Talmud class, like 75 years ago. So in any event, Ruvain, we are thrilled to have you. And that's just say hello and tell us where you're calling in from. Hi, thank you so much. It's the way it's a pleasure to talk with you, to learn from you. And yes, it was many years ago. I was learning from you and I'm still learning from you. So I'm really excited for this podcast as we explore Sukot. I'm currently located newly located in Elkins Park, which is just outside Philadelphia. I formerly lived in Michigan and I'm excited to be podcasting from beautiful Elkins Park. Okay. Well, since all I can see is some room you're in with a fan going behind you, I cannot testify to the beauty of Elkins Park, one way or another, but we'll take your word for it. So Ruvain, I want to begin Sukot for the outsider, right? For the person who doesn't have a lot of experienced Jewish holidays. I'm going to live and say, I think it's the strangest of Jewish holidays. In the sense that when you tell somebody what we do, well, we sit in this carefully constructed booth outside our homes. It's not a tent, it's a type of hut with all sorts of rules and regulations about the walls and what can be made the ceiling and how you can make the ceiling. And then if that's not enough, we also take plants, right? We take a palm branch and myrtle leaves and willow branches. And we hold them all together with something called a siptron, which nobody knows if that is. It's just an retro, it looks like a lemon, but it's not an element and we shake that. And I think for many folks, sort of looking at this holiday, it's a struggle to understand what this holiday is about. Rosh Hashanna, the new year we understand, Jung Kippur, we understand. And I think we come to Sukot and for many of us, we're not even clear what the booth is about, what these four species that we shake is about. So tell us a little bit about why this holiday is so important in our holiday cycle. I think you've touched on really good points, there's a lot going on in Sukot. It's very physical, after we've kind of been in the shore on Rosh Hashanna and Jung Kippur and we've been standing there for hours and what might feel like days. Now all of a sudden, Judaism's telling us to go outside, shake lula of the palm fronds and go out in leech eye. It feels like such a contrast to what happened in Rosh Hashanna and Jung Kippur. And I think that contrast needs to be explored more because it feels like, I don't know if you've experienced this fee, where like when Jung Kippur is over, your kind of body and mind takes a sigh of relief. You're like, wow, we're kind of done with that. That's like a really heavy part of Judaism and we can kind of step outside. I don't know if you've experienced that. I understand what you mean, we made it through the fast. We made it through all that standing in synagogue. We managed not to get too angry at the guy who's giving his kid Doritos in the middle of Nila. Right. We've made our way through those things. So help us understand what do you think this festival of booths, as it's often translated into? What is this holiday about? What is it trying to teach us? Aside from the phrase, it's a harvest festival. Right. So I think one of the problems that we have, and this is what I want to explore with you and through some texts, which I'm going to bring, is that we kind of bifurcate the Kage Tishre. Right. The festivals of Tishre. Have rosh Hashanah Yon Kippur? It feels like we just make a break. And then we have Sukkot. And it's kind of this distinct festival by itself, which we're trying to understand. What I think some of a text point to is that we shouldn't try to understand Sukkot purely by itself. But it's actually part of a process, like the Rosh Hashanah Yon Kippur and Sukkot really come together. And the first text I want to bring, which I think makes that point, is from Rosh Hashanah. I think it's in the first paragraph. It's the second Mishra, which says, "Barabaprakim haalam nidon." The world is judged for separate times. Right. It's on produce, on Shavuot, it's on the fruits, and Rosh Hashanah, which may be the most venomous one. Right. We all pass before God. It's the day of judgment, is Yom Hadin. And then the fourth one is Uvakhag, that's Khankha Sukkot, Nidonin al-Hamayin, that on Khankha Sukkot, we are judged on water. Which really means that this text, at least, is saying, but it's a super important day. This is the day of judgment as well, just like Rosh Hashanah is the day of judgment. So too Sukkot is the day of judgment. It's like kind of quite serious. Yeah. I think that's the first thing. But what that text does is say that actually it's connected. Rosh Hashanah Sukkot, and I'd also put Yom Kippur in there, because Yom Kippur is really an extension of Rosh Hashanah, very come together. But we have to see them as a whole. So I guess so that begs the question, if it's a day of judgment, and why aren't we in synagogue again for eight hours at a shot, praying, crying, calling out to God, instead of, you know, for many of us enjoying festive meals in a hut. Yeah. I think you're right. I think we generally do focus on that bit, right? And we kind of forget a little bit about the whole being judged for water bit, right? There are special prayers that we begin to insert. And I'd like to bring some sources which prove your point completely, right? On the one hand, we have the mission who's saying this is a Yom Hadin for Mayan. But the next source I'd like to bring is from the Torah itself, which says in Devarim, chapter 16 verse 14, "You should be joyful in your festival," right? The next passage, "Shibatya minta khogla donai, that you should rejoice, you should celebrate for seven days." And at the end of the passage, it says, "Vahayita aksamea, and you should be happy. You should be joyful." So so, what is joyful? Well, it's interesting. I think there are a couple of questions. First of all, why are we commanded to be joyful at this time? And what does it mean also to be commanded to be joyful is also a problem, right? It's almost like when you're on vacation with your kids and you tell them, "You guys better start enjoying yourselves, because we travel six hours in the car to get to this place. You better like it and be happy and grateful." There's also that question of, "What is it mean for the Torah to obligate us in happiness?" And why are we trying to be specifically happy now, especially if you just told us, it's a day of judgment about reign? I think those two questions are interrelated. And the next source, I think, is kind of an approach to how we should think about or how we could think about the Chagyim, the festivals. And that comes from the Siddir. So each festival, like Pesach, Shibuot and Sukhat, has its own kind of key word, right, which we change depending on the festival. So for example, Pesach is Zman Keratinu, it's the time of our freedom, right? That's a very good Pesach theme, right? We came out of Egypt, now we are free people, so it's the Zman Keratinu, the time of our freedom. Shibuot, when Chazal Verabai's associated with a giving of the Torah, it becomes Zman Toratinu, the time of our Torah, the time when we got the Torah. And so for Sukhat, if you had to sum up Sukhat in one word, what did Erabai's do in the Siddir? They call it Zman Simchatinu. This is the time of our happiness, not Pesach, not Shibuot, not Roshashon or Yom Kippur, Sukhat. But the phrase Zman Simchatinu, just like the other ones, and maybe if we just compare it with Pesach, right, Zman Keratinu, I'm not sure means you're commanded to be free right now, right? I think what's happening for Pesach, when it's Zman Keratinu, the time of our freedom, this is the time when we can tap into the influence, the influx of freedom into our lives. This is a space. special time for us to focus on freedom, what it means, how free am I? How can I increase freedom in my life? Right? So, so too, when it comes to Sukkort, to Zman Srim Khatainu, I'm not sure it means we are commanded to be happy, but this is the time for us. Now, we've gone through perhaps these processes of Rosh Hashan Yom Kippur, we can now achieve all work on our Srim Khat in our life. This is the time. Sukkort is the time. I think that's what the rabbis are trying to get us to think about to work on. That Sukkort is a time of us to work and develop on our Srim Khat. So, when you talk about our happiness, our Srim Khat, so obviously the Torah says that one of the reasons we do Sukkort, really I think there are two reasons. There's the agricultural reason of Harvest Festival, and there's the historical reason of it commemorates how we lived in the desert. After we left Egypt, before we arrived in the land of Israel, we wander for 40 years in the desert. God taking care of us in the desert, but use an interesting phrase. I guess I can understand how each of those thinking about them could bring a certain amount of joy. Either the joy of the Harvest certainly is more tangible, the joy or sense of, you know, God took care of me when I was in the desert, but I guess it's still, you say something very interesting that you're not being commanded to generate happiness, but you're being commanded to tap into a happiness that's already there in some way. In the same way, we are free, but we are accentuating our freedom at Pasach time, and maybe you could say the same way we have the Torah, but we are tapping into our receiving of the Torah at Shovel Road. What does it mean that we are tapping into a happiness that is there? Maybe you could say a little bit more about that. Yeah, and I think this goes back to our previous kind of dilemma that we had, but Sukkot is both this Yom Hadin and it is a time of happiness as well, that Sukkot doesn't stand alone. Sukkot is part of this Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur kind of triumvirate, right? The Trilogy. And just to focus on that, there's a text from Malachim Aliv, it's in the eighth chapter, and it says that all the men of Israel gathered before King Solomon at the feast, that's talking about Sukkot, in the month of Eitanim, right? In this month, which they call Eitanim, what does that mean? So we have a commentator who says it's called Eitanim, which is a language of strength, great one's strength here. It's a language of strength, a power because Tishre has festivals that are powerful, right? That they can rectify towards, they can rectify humans towards their completion, meaning those three go together and it's all about personal growth, it's all about us tapping into something bigger than ourselves, right? And it's realizing as we start, we've din and judgment, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, those very serious days, which we have to have, we end with Sukkot, which God perhaps is still King, is still judge, but rather than being scared, we're moving into a place of joyfulness and a place of happiness. When you think of God as judge or God as King, how does that make you happy? How does that generate happiness for you? Right. So think we'll move on to a really interesting midrush, which I think helps us understand how we move between this idea of din and happiness, right? And I think it's going to end up being kind of a mindset, right? It's a mindset, which I think is helped by all of the physical things that we do, but it's taking those physical elements and being able to internalize them and help us grow spiritually. And so I'm going to just kind of read and paraphrase a midrush, which is found in the Babylonian Talmud, in the second of Odazara. And this is the end of days, right? Whatever that means, right? The final days of judgment, which is interesting because we're going to be talking about Sukkot when it's framed as a day of judgment, so they're kind of tying this midrush ties those two themes together. And the non-Jews are going to go before God and presumably it seems like they're being judged unfavorably. And they make the claim, look, if you would have given us the Torah, we would have been good people. We'd have been just like the Jewish people. We would have done X, we had to catch a bath, we'd have done cash fruit, whatever the Torah says, we would have done, but you didn't give it to us. So how can you now blame us, all right? That we didn't do the right things or act morally or whatever it is. And God says back to them, no, you know, what you didn't prepare for the well to come. So you're not going to now receive the reward which you would like, just like someone who doesn't prepare for Shabbat, doesn't get to eat on Shabbat, right? You have to do the proper preparations, but God says, okay, but you know what? I won't let you do a mits, but let's see, let's take a test. So he gives to the non-Jews a test, and what is that test? Sukkot. Go and do the mits per of Sukkot, which apparently is a very, nowadays perhaps it got more complicated, but back in the day, it was very easy. You just get some sticks and words. You make a heart. You put some vegetation on top. You know, apparently anyone could make a Sukkot. I don't know about your building skills, but I have to go to Home Depot and like mine are just terrible. My wife has to help me. My son has to help me. I have one of those metal frames. I can barely get the frames into one another, and then I have to, the tarps and it's a very upsetting process. And it's, I think that's my Yom I did. And that's my judgment day when I have to put up the Sukkot. God says, wow, you're, uh, you're really not doing a great job. Uh, yeah. I mean, I think the real miracle is that the Sukkot actually stay up. I think that's definitely, uh, forget the Hunter Camira call with, uh, that's the Sukkot miracle we're able to build these things. But according to the midrush, it's actually a very easy mits per to do, and you can just, you know, whip one up very quickly. So they probably had better building skills than we have today. So what happens? So, okay, each and every non-ju goes and does it and they go to the top and every roof, they build a nice Sukkot, everything's great. Except God decides, test them again, and he makes it a very hot day, and the sun is beating down. And if you're uncomfortable in your Sukkot, let's say it's raining or let's say it's just way too hot, you're allowed to leave your Sukkot, right? So they left their Sukkot. But as they did, each one kicked their Sukkot on the way out. They kicked it over. Yeah, they kicked it over. They just kicked it. I don't know if you've ever got angry and, uh, you know, not you, but, you know, sometimes hit something, you know, when you get upset, I think that's the thing in the world. So I guess that's what they did. They hit it on the way out. So God says, you're not keeping the mits per, you know, you don't want to do it. And that shows where they weren't up, they're not up, they're not up for the challenge. So the Gamara carries on, and it says, okay, well, what happens when the Jews leave a Sukkot? You don't have to stay in a Sukkot when it's hot. They said, yeah, Jews leave a Sukkot as well. But they don't kick it. They don't kick the Sukkot on the way out. And I think that difference between kicking the Sukkot on the way out and not kicking the Sukkot on the way out, I believe is a clue for us to understand what happiness is about. Okay, so the non-Jews are given this opportunity. They leave the Sukkot because it's hot and the Gamara basically asks, why should they be punished for leaving Jews also leave the Sukkot when it's too hot and uncomfortable? And the answer is because they kicked it down or kicked it over or kicked it. And Jews don't kick the Sukkot. And so you're going to explain to us how the fact that we don't kick the Sukkot even when it's hot is going to give us the secret of happiness. No pressure, but that's what you promised to me. Yeah, no pressure. Obviously this is just one understanding. But here's how I'm seeing it. When it comes to Russia's sonner and it comes to Yom Kippur, what are you really doing? It's called Yom Hadim. In order for there to be Yom Hadim, judgment day, we have to understand that we are not in control. There is a judge or in Russia's sonner, we often talk about a melect, we often talk about a king, royalty. And what that means is that there's someone in charge and that's not us. And Russia's sonner and Yom Kippur, we're really focusing on those aspects. All right, Russia's sonner, we're acknowledging there's a king on Yom Kippur with an appealing to that king. And on Sukkot is coming to terms and it's living as going out into the world, it's leaving the shoe, it's leaving our machzo behind, our prayer, our special high holy day prayer, but behind and it's going out and living in the world and being able to understand and feel and believe, but we are sitting in a world in the shade of God. And I think that's what a Sukkot booth is representing, right? We're living in God's world. It's not our world. I mean, we're part of the world, but we're not in control of everything. And it reminds me of that for the famous P.O.K. Avott, who is happy, one who is happy, who has been very lost. And I think that's really what Sir Kot is telling us, we're happy with the world, which was given around us. Natural, simple, relieved all the complexities of our house and allow man-made contractions and thinking, we're just living in the simple shade of God. And we can do that for seven days. What's interesting, I think, are really provocative, is the same idea. God is in control, God is the judge. I have no choice but to live in God's world in some way. That same idea, which can fill us with a lot of fear, and maybe even awe on Rosh Hashanah, and maybe even a sense of desperation all the way through Yom Kippur. Oh my gosh, if God really is in charge and God really is King, and I really am accountable to God, then I've got a lot to worry about because I've not been living the last 364 days with that in mind, or not enough in mind, and now I have to account for that. And what you're saying is, once one has done that in a very almost paradoxical way, the awareness that we live in God's world can also be a source of tremendous joy. The idea that I live in a world that God is in charge doesn't have to only be scary, but it can actually give me tremendous, seem hot, give me great joy to appreciate the idea that, indeed, I do live in God's world. It reminds me of Rotsaraka Cohen says very beautifully, because, of course, this idea of the sook is you pointed out, it execuates our sense of dependence upon God, right? That all the artificial means of protecting ourselves are stripped away, and, as you said, we are living as we did in the desert with divine protection, and I would say for most people, feeling dependent is actually quite uncomfortable. For most people, the loss of control or loss of independence that comes with that, actually can make us very anxious and upset and unhappy. And Rotsaraka is basically saying, "No, that's the source of the joy." That your need for God and your dependence upon God, that is in fact, is what generates the possibility of joy, because when you are dependent on God, you can feel God very close to you. So, what do you think? Is that fit with what you're suggesting to us? I think absolutely, absolutely. And what's really interesting about that idea, because we were talking about being dependent, right? Being dependent on God, when we replace that dependency with something else, it can go to a really harmful place. I want to bring in what I found fascinating when I looked into the 12-step program for organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous, or really any addiction program, this one's been found to be kind of one of if not the most effective, right? Certainly effective for a lot of people, that when people place their dependency on alcohol or food or anything else, materialism or money, when you are dependent on power or honor, when you're dependent on something of this world, then you can go to bad places, right? And the first few steps in the 12-step program are all about saying I'm not in control. There is a force bigger than me. It's wherever you call back God, or whatever you call it, I'm not in control of a world around me. It doesn't mean you're despondent and you give up, right? We still have Russia, China and Yom Kippur. We still have a responsiveness of a world around us, but I ultimately am not in control of a world around me. And the only place we can turn to is God, or Torah, or et cetera, et cetera, right? But don't depend on something of this world. But can you understand how that sense for some people could yield or create a sense of loss of control and could actually make them feel very fearful and anxious when you think about how much we try to assert control over our environment, over our lives. And you're suggesting somehow, maybe even I suggested it before, I'm asking you, does it work for you that that sense of giving up control? I think a lot of people would say that should scare you. That should make you feel reduced and small and powerless. And yet you're saying, no, that's actually freeing. It actually makes me very happy. I think that's kind of a highly a theological question, right? Do you believe that God is responsive, right? But my actions count in the world. So for me, just personally for me, I would say yes, right? My actions do count in the world for good and for bad, right? When I do good things or when I, you know, perhaps I don't do good things over time. And that's why we have things like Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur built into the system. Yeah, but you're saying, then, that the fact that we are judged, even that makes you happy because the implication is you matter, right? That God actually will take the time to judge you automatically says that you, in fact, have an important role to play in this world. Correct. Yeah. And I think even going back to that first mission, right? It says that everyone passes before God on Rosh Hashanah. I think really speaks to the fact that every person counts and every person matters. Kind of no matter what happened that previous year, if you focus on being better for the coming year, or Shosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, then you can walk out of shore. You can go into your sugar. You can create the weld where, yes, you are not in ultimate control. And yet, conversely, that lack of control creates intimacy with God as opposed to a feeling of, I don't know, fear or anxiety, which I think is counterintuitive for us in a culture that would equate more control, more power with more satisfaction in life. And this is a very countercultural message that suggests that, in fact, giving up control can also create a relationship or an awareness or nearness of God that, in fact, gives us a lot more SIMRA, a lot more joy than the things that we can give ourselves. And it actually reminds me of an idea that a friend of mine taught me a long time ago that gratitude can only come if there is a lacking first, right? You can only be grateful, truly grateful for the things you cannot give yourself. And that's why we are most grateful for the people in our lives, for the beauty of nature, for all those things that we realize it's a gift, because I can't give it to myself, which means that on some level, I don't acknowledge my need. If I don't acknowledge my lack of control, I never get the opportunity to receive a gift. And I like the idea that on Sukkot by saying, well, God, this produce, everything I have, you gave me as a gift. On the one hand, I have to sort of let go of my idea that I can control the economy. I can control my lifestyle. If I just make good decisions and work hard, everything will go the way I want it to. I have to enter into that place of perhaps fear and anxiety. Is God going to give me rain this year when I pray for rain? Is God going to take care of me? But at the same time, it gives me the opportunity to feel taken care of and to feel grateful for what I've received and been given. Yeah. And I think, you know, if we bring it down maybe into the more earthly realm, that's when you're talking about relationships, you know, the deepest relationships that we have in our life, you know, whoever, you know, a person maybe in a deep relationship with, if that's a controlling relationship and you're trying to control the other, we know that that's probably going to be a destructive relationship or is not a healthy relationship, right? When one tries to control the other. And I think that's really what's going on here, right? But I can just make a little bit of Shmini at Seret, which is that really the eighth day of Sukkot. Yes. It's a question if it's a holiday by itself, but, you know, about about final day are called Shmini at Seret. There's a famous midrush, which says, you know, after Sukkot, which is, you know, a little bit outwardly focused with the nations that God just wants God and the Jews, just one day by ourselves, kind of as you are saying, like an intimate relationship, right? And I feel like once we've gone through this process of Russia, Shona, Yom Kippur, we're admitting, we are not in control and we can accept that. We can build a life for ourselves the seven days of support where we are not in control. Then we can really experience that Shmini at Seret, that intimate one-on-one relationship. We've got, which I think would be the ultimate happiness. And that's the source of joy you're seeing is that that relationship is the source of joy. Yeah. You know, just before we close, there's an image that I remember looking at with the Lula, for example, right? With that, with the four species, and we shake them, right? There's this strange thing we don't, where the Torah says to take them, but the sages teach we have to shake them. I remember I've read two different interpretations of the shaking. Some say we are shaking, it's like a dance. We're dancing with joy. We're so excited for Sukkot and, according to the Yurushalmi, the Palestinian Talmud, right, we are carrying them as signs that God is judged just favorably on Yom Kippur. So we're happy. We're excited. It's a symbol of joy. It's a symbol of the produce we received over the past year and how blessed and grateful we are. And others say, no, it's actually you're shaking in fear because you're thinking about the coming year and everything you received in the past year, there's no guarantees it's going to happen again, right? At this point, you're about to start the rainy season. You know, we even have this water pouring festival in the temple we used to on Sukkot and Ravmeidan and the gush pointed out ones that when the people would go down to that spring to gather the water, the water was at its lowest point. So on the one hand, you could say, I'm rejoicing over the water I've received, but you could also say, I'm terribly worried about the water that I'm going to need and will God give it to me? And I think the incredibly interesting element you're showing is they're both elements of happiness. There's the happiness of the gifts I've received and there's even the happiness of knowing that at the end of the day, God is in charge of taking care of me and that's my relationship with God. It's so no matter how I look at it, the sense of gratitude and the sense of need and lack of control, they both turn me into this direction of relationship with God that ultimately is a source of great happiness. Yes. So Ruvane, before we close, tell us one thing you like to do on Sukkot with you or your family to make it special and maybe people listening will give it a try. Great question. One thing I really like to try and do on Sukkot is actually there's a lot going on and there's trips people like to do. They trips and this and that, I find them terrible and horrific. Definitely not a source of happiness in my life. But what I do try to do is if I can, is to sneak a few minutes, is to sit in a Sukkot with a nice cup of tea and with anisefa and a book, a Jewish book and just to sit and learn a little bit in the quiet of that heart. Just try and be simple, try and be simple for a few minutes. A few minutes of quiet with little Torah studying your Sukkot gives you great joy. Yes. See all I can think of is I make pancakes everybody on Hoshana Raba. So yours is way more spiritual but blueberry pancakes are a big hit and especially if you have little children around they seem to like them. Hey, okay, Ruvane, you've given us a really interesting challenge here. We got to find our spiritual happiness on Sukkot and we have to use Rosh Hashanah maybe Yom Kippur almost as a preparation towards entering this happiness of Sukkot and so it's more than pumpkins folks. It's more than corn stalks that people like. It's more they've been decorating that Sukkot but there's some profound messages with all these plants and booths and shaking and all this other things that are going on. Ruvane, thank you very, very much for your time and your Torah and you're you guys can see your winning smile. Probably can feel the winning smile to listen to the podcast but it has been great having it. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. So on behalf of all this here, we want to wish all of you a Akhag Samah, a joyous festival and we continue to pray for the well-being and safety and joy of the Jewish people of the entire world and look forward to a year that is more peaceful and more calm and more joyous. Even as we try to remain grateful for the year that has passed. Thank you very much, Ruvane. Thanks a lot. Thanks very much. Thanks a lot. Thank you for tuning in to the Part A's Parasha podcast. We hope you enjoyed this week's episode and gained some new insights and perspectives on the Torah portion. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite streaming platform and leave us a five star review if you enjoyed the episode. Your feedback helps us reach more people with these important conversations. Thanks again for listening and we look forward to exploring the Torah with you again next week on the Part A's Parasha podcast. Shabbat Shalom.