Suffer Well: A Climbing (and Life) Philosophy, with Kelly Cordes

[Music] You're listening to the American Alpine Club podcast. Your guide to the climbing community. Every year, the AAC bestows awards to climbing changemakers and celebrates their accomplishments at the AAC Gala. We'll be announcing those award winners in mid-July, but first we wanted to give our listeners a sneak peek into the stories awaiting you, through diving into the life and personality of one awardee. We invited the Alponist and climber, Kelly Cordis, who will be receiving the pinnacle award this year, onto the pod to celebrate his outstanding mountaineering and climbing achievements, and simply to ramble a bit and tell good stories. Though too humble to brag, Cordis is known for his boldest sense, including the Azeem Ridge on Great Trango Tower, a link up on Saro Torre, many first-assents in Peru and Alaska, as well as his disaster style and suffer-well philosophy. With a 20-year lens, we have Cordis reflect on the Azeem Ridge story and tell it a new with all that he's learned since then. We also spend some time talking about his writing life, including supporting editing for the AHA for 12 years, and co-writing the bestseller, The Push, with his close friend, Tommy Caldwell. Dive in to get just a taste of Cordis' story and why he's committed to suffering well. I'm your host, Hannah Provo. Here's the beta. The AAC podcast is presented by Patagonia. If you're looking for the ultimate adventure guide and navigation app, our sponsor on XBAC Country has your back. On X has paired climbing area locations, route beta, photos and approach trails from mountain project, with premium GPS navigation and mapping tools like high-resolution 3D maps, private land data, recent satellite imagery and offline maps, so you can easily navigate to the Boulder or Crag. And for the off season or those multi-activity days, check out over 1,500 in-depth skydbook ski tours, and over 650,000 miles of hiking and mountain biking trails, route-building tools, personal waypoints and on-the-ground tracking. Use promo code AAC30 for 30% off on XBAC Country, and don't wait to find your next adventure. Okay, welcome to the podcast. Today we have Kelly Cordis on. Partially to celebrate, he got the pinnacle award from the AAC. He doesn't want to celebrate it, but I will celebrate it for him, he's being too humble. But we're going to talk about some really cool stuff on this podcast today. But let's just start with first Kelly, who are you as a climber right now? Right now, just aging, washed up has been, never was climber who loves being outside. I mean, I absolutely love being in the mountains, it's been dreamy climbing in the first place, and it's what still sustains me. Like, I don't know, I do a lot of cragging these days, but the last two days I was outside clipping bolts and having a great time and I'll get some time out on my mountain bike and walking our dog and then probably some tried climbing up at lumpy ridge this weekend. So I'm just like an all-around climber who loves being outside. That's about it. And historically you've done a lot of alpinism, correct? Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, I was drawn to the mountains first. My love of an interest in spending time in the mountains came first and the specifics of climbing and technical climbing came second. Even though to this day, I love, I mean, I go to the climbing gym, like I said, I was sport climbing the last couple days, you know, I dig all that stuff. But if I could only do one thing for the rest of my life, it would definitely be spending time in the mountains. And so that sort of what dreamy I was in living in Missoula, Montana in the early 90s. And I had just completely fallen in love with the mountains and then a buddy took me, offered to take me ice climbing one time. And I just thought it was the coolest thing ever. It part, and part because it's so weird and different, you know, to be climbing something that momentarily, you know, at least when you zoom out, the big picture, it is going to be gone. I mean, yeah, you know, whatever. The thing was, I still remember, it was like late season two. It was truly going to be all water in like a couple of weeks, but like a couple of weeks is not a long time. Like that's the blink of an eye. And sometimes these ice shots, like they come and go in a day. And I was just like, wow, how cool. That is really wild. And that was also in an actual segue, especially within the Montana in the 90s. There wasn't a ton of sport climbing. And so a lot of the things were kind of about being in the mountains and then combining some technical climbing with being in the mountains just seemed like the perfect combination. And I've ever since then, it's been dominant for us in my life. Very fun. That's an interesting way to think about ice climbing. I don't ice climb. So I definitely, anytime, like people are really into it, like their perspective often seems very different than your classic rock climber's perspective. Yeah, yeah, right. I know it is kind of different. And it was funny when it was cracking yesterday. My friends and I somehow, and they don't ice climb either. But we were talking about ice climbing. I was like, yeah, it is a little bit weird. And like sometimes like, there's like that, that the primal like caveman dude brain, like a manless sharp tools. Like when we get these sharp tools in her hands, sometimes, and it's always funny. I was down in the example of how I love it when he's like, you see like that, they're like super mature dude, just like smash and the hell out of the ice like dude, that is not the way to do it. And then like a woman right next to him with like perfect technique just like dances up. And it's like, yeah, and just because you have sharp tools, like don't turn into a caveman. So everyone thinks it's just like bashing up things and it can be, but it can be incredibly engaging, especially if you're on something maybe like in the mountains, that's like naturally protected and as a mix of denice and rock. And you're using every technique that you have, you know, including a lot of judgment. And I like the kind of ongoing analysis. You have to do it. I mean, it's a little bit like, I don't know, like there's a bad comparison. It's a little bit like climbing chossy rock. You know, you're like, is this whole gonna stay on or when you're pulled off? Like how much weight do I put on it? How do I how do I equalize my weight between my different parts of my body? How where's my protection? The risk is typically a bit higher, which I don't know, I guess I kind of always found that someone engaging. I don't think risk is necessarily a bad term. You know, you don't want to get yourself hurt or killed in these things are dangerous. But I also think, you know, embracing risk has a certain mentality to it. And there's kind of an art to trying to get it right. And I don't think any of us ever get it a hundred percent right. And since none of us get it right all the time, sometimes instead we just get lucky. And that's happened to me a ton. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to dig into that more when we talk about the Azeem Ridge specifically. But before we go there, who are you besides a climber? I guess a writer, writer and dog lover and introvert. It's funny. I mean, I can be real chatty as you're probably painfully aware by now. And like when I when I get around people, I can open up and talk a fair bit. But like I am so like quiet normally. I mean, I Sony and I live together with our dog Fiona. And like outside of Cernian Fiona, like I don't talk to people very much. I type long emails text messages and things like that. But like I love going for like walks with our dog. And in the winter, like I these days I just ski tour like all the time or as much as I can. But like people think skiing they, you know, thinking of going downhill or jumping off a cliffs or whatever the hell. But not me. I am the most boring skier. I'm just like the old man's skier. I go for long, long walks. Like if I never take my skins off, I'm totally happy. I'll just go out for hours upon hours at a time and get this by it meditative time and amount. Which I absolutely love. So I'm a little bit of a hermit/interver/writer and climate outdoor person, I guess. Yeah, that sounds so lovely, honestly. It's kind of nice. It sometimes helps calm my brain a little bit because I think as with a lot of people, I mean, yeah, it's not. Man, I'm not competing with the dolly Lana here. Like, like, you don't have any, I'm no threat. Like, yeah, my brain and the spin spiral is like as with a lot of people, I think it's probably artisanal. human condition, ancient stoics and religions and Buddhism and all that, they deal with that as well. It's certainly gotten worse, I think, with our modern ABD and social media, era and things like that. But still, having a spiraling mind is probably part of the human condition and not quite time outdoors really helps me with that. For sure, yeah, no, for me too. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, so I am interested in the Zeme Ridge. It's a very big deal. I think it's known as the longest route ever. Question mark. I don't know. I don't think it was like, we I get the Guinness book to weigh in on that shit. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It is. It's a pretty pretty big route, pretty long, but there might be some that are bigger. I don't really know. I guess I don't like care all that much, but it was big enough for me. Right. Exactly. Well, and so that was in 2004, 2003, I think? Four. Yeah, 2004. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm interested in like, if you could immerse us in, if what you remember of the moment and tell us a little bit the arc of the story, but then also take a step back at the end and be like 20 years later, this is how I think about it. So I guess let's start with like where was where did the idea come from? How did this all come together? Yeah, came from Josh, Josh Warden. So he's still a really close friend at the time. I didn't know him that well or mutual friend Johnny cop. I think was who introduced us and you know, Josh, I think it was a college student at this time, maybe or maybe I just graduated down in Boulder and I'm living up in Estus and we had just met and started climbing a little bit together and it turns out, so Josh had been to Pakistan once before I had never been. He had been when he and Brian McMahon did the first Ascent of an amazing feature farther at the Triangle Valley called the Flame. And I knew that Josh was a phenomenal climber like one of those young guys who's this like kind of turning heads. And it's amazing because he still is to this day at the cutting edge and all realms he's so good at every every part of the game. But it was kind of funny like though, I mean Josh is just you know on fire and then we had started climbing a little bit together and I was like wow, yeah, this kid is like really good and really doubt. I mean he was like 24 or something at the time and the way Josh tells this story that like the way he decided to invite me. So he had been at the Triangle Valley. He knew about this route. People have been trying it. It's the Southwest Bridge of Great Triangle Tower and it has been rumored to be the biggest rock climb on Earth or that they certainly the biggest unclaimed I guess and I don't again I don't really know but it starts like given the topography of Great Triangle it it starts at a real low point right so it's quite a bit bigger vertical relief than even like the big wall faces onto the side but it's this ridge with a real steep head wall at the top that would be a big question mark and you're like people are trying it and not pulling it off and having epics and you're like man you kind of want to go over to the top because you could descend the shorter other side because that's a you know you're not going to have enough gear probably to wrap down that. So anyway Josh unbeknownst to me he had been kind of looking for somebody because he had seen this when he and Brian were up there doing the flame and he's like trying to think of who would be a good partner to try to talk in to do this thing and Josh had been he had been asked to go to a A C meeting to talk I think he got like the young climber award like the Bates Award or something like that which you know I mean he's just such a phenom I can't even say it enough but uh so so then he you know they're they're paying for his road trip out to I think it was in Las Vegas and then he asked if I want to come and you know we'll go climbing along the way until we climb in the black canyon and then we're out in Red Rocks and it's climbing and getting ready to go to this meeting because I was working for the American Alpine Journal at the time and like they put him up in a hotel room and you know it's like sweet you know I mean guys like us don't get to stay in hotels at least not back in those days you know you're sleeping in the derger whatever and I didn't have a TV either and like my dark secret is it I freaking love pro wrestling you know like big time rasslam just like growing up I used to go to like pro wrestling matches me my little brother and I redneck friends like um growing up in Pennsylvania we would like it comes to like the coal mining towns around and stuff and we just go to me just go nuts you know it was just freaking mayhem so like back in like I guess we've been like 70s and 80s like when we would go to these things sometimes in that fan restraints like there's bis fights like in these towns like they're fighting with the wrestlers it's just utter mayhem I just freaking loved it and so anyway I was a big fan of big time rasslam and in the hotel room in the Josh and I that they put us up in I had a TV and I'm just like you know it's a novel ticket I didn't see TV in a long time and I'm like flip through the channels and like pro wrestling was on I'm just like loving it and Josh is just like being this a observer and he wrote in an article somewhere after we I'm the rather great triangle he wrote about how he was like trying to think of who who would be down enough that he could talk into trying to swallow it then and he says when I got Kelly tuning into pro wrestling I knew I had found the right partner oh so yeah he asked me if I wanted to check out this this big route and I was like yeah sounds great let's go and the next thing you know there we are in it wasn't too long after that you know we got our our visas and everything else and we're going to Pakistan which is an amazing place the caracorn mountains are just phenomenal I've never been anywhere like it it's just unequal and yeah the real John great triangle is pretty huge and I at the time most of my alpine big alpine climbing like bigger outs like I guess Alaskan Peru and a little bit in the Alps had mostly been ice and mixed climbing because I really loved that for a long time but you know I I rock climbed a lot too and I started to become a better rock climber over time and all that and so you know it was just in the route is is almost all rock you know yeah it you have to bring crampons and you know a little bit of ice gear which complicates things quite a bit but mostly just an enormous rock climb and so we got to Pakistan and the third a climatizing and and a planning our strategy and that was that but yeah it was all Josh's idea this fall yeah blame goes to Josh yeah for sure so one at the really there's a couple like really striking things that I was able to like pick up in your a j article that I think you know you're pretty well known for but like one of them is the suffer well philosophy did you go into that the this climb with this already kind of a strong sense of like going to suffer well and then what does that mean yeah for sure I guess we can back up just to touch so it into suffer well became kind of a literal manifestation if you will of what what some other friends and I the semi-old Missoula buddies and one of my buddies round estus that we had called disaster style climbing so the everybody would argue about climbing style and they still do and I did do I mean I I was I was like a jihadist brow behind style I was like I mean I put my whole identity in it like this is the way and I like in my mind there there were and I guess there's sort of still are analogies to how you live your life and I fall short for sure but like up on style I represent minimalism show and respect the places that draw you there in the first place it is immaculate beautiful mountains they're the ones who are in charge not us we mold ourselves to try to climb them in a minimalist style if we can and that causes us to focus on the things that we find most important and the things that draw us there and in my mind that is about respectful way of climbing the mountains it's not about large teams with big strobes and bolts all over the place in this map and again I had nothing against bolts when used properly I was sport climbing last two days it's awesome but you're not going to do a chaser in my street and drag a compressor up and do bolt ladders up the damn thing so it's like this minimalist ethos and again I fall short all the time in life I have too much stuff you know I the fancy pants privilege westerner lifestyle you travel around the world you start to recognize that and it's like wow we're pretty damn lucky so all that said at disaster style was always sort of a a mindset of rejecting some of the kind of mainstream norms which includes like oh you know go to college get degree get married have 2.2 kids get the worst job you never fucking wanted be miserable all the time and it be the best at working constantly you know to that whole thing I'm always like okay you win you know it's like this contest in America so you can be most miserable for more coming up all the time. So all of that is sort of wrapped into the disaster style you've noticed and then applied the climbing. It's like lightweight minimalist way of approaching our objectives, right? But then, uh, so it's sort of a joke but also sort of serious. And then realistically, you know, so Josh and I were going for what became these e-mrig in a really lightweight style because we're both that same mindset. And I knew given the, I mean, they're out, the vertical gain is 7,400 vertical feet. So climbing distance is even farther. After a certain point, it's going to be really hard to retreat. The crux is applied. You can all that. It's kind of an all or nothing sort of deal. I mean, not entirely. I mean, you can get yourself out of some pretty crazy situations when you really have to. But, uh, but we knew we were going to be really committed. And so that's where the suffer-well notion came in. I knew that for something like this, like, like, we're going to suffer. Like, it's, it's going to be hard. We're not picking days these here. Like, this is going to really extend us. This is going to really push us. And so it was funny that I often get really scared before the grouts. And, you know, I started doubting myself and thinking like, you know, I was like talking about the disaster style you go earlier, but I struggle with it. I mean, it's what I want to have. But I remember so often when I was climbing like before a big route or something, I'd be so scared. I'd be like, in my tent thinking like, oh man, I hope it starts snowing tonight. So we don't have to go. You know, it's like, all the, it's crazy because all these things that I dream about all the time that, like, steer my life. And I just daydream about all the time when I'm at home and everything. And I'm there and I'm getting excited on the way in and then it's like coming up and it's just, it's intimidating, you know, it's just scary. And so I think a lot of us actually grapple with these doubts. And they're not talked about a whole ton, you know, it's like, you have to deal with that. You have to deal with your doubts. And the craziest thing was, is the night before we started up on Great Try and Goat. I was sitting there and I was nervous, of course, but I wasn't too scared. I had this like, it's almost like a pretter natural calmness. I was like, totally at peace with it. I'm like, all right, we're going to, we're going to set forth on the biggest route of our lives carrying a single backpack between us. And no fixed ropes, not bringing a bolt kit, that basic rack. And we're probably going to suffer in that, you know, I'm okay with that. And I just, so I'm writing to my journal and right before I went to sleep, the final line I wrote in there was, "he mentally strong, suffer well, it will be worth it." And then I closed my journal and went to sleep in the next morning. We started climbing. So that's where the suffer well thing came from, which was, I think that was Harlan's idea, John Harland, who was editor of the A.J. At the time. He had suggested that as the title for my article. So, which was a great title. So that was his idea. And very apt, because there are a lot of things went wrong. Right off the bat, right? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah, I think it was the second hitch of the route. I think it was, like we lost like a quarter, a third of our cams off their hacks. So I always, we divided the route up into, you know, we were leading in blocks on which, you know, sort of made sense. So I led first and we had planned it to, Josh would get the hardest, steepest climbing because he's a much better climber than I am. Well, he's better than everything than I am. And so we figured we've broken in that sections. It sort of made sense. So like I lead the longer, more moderate sections. And we sort of say Josh is the energy for the harder pitches and things like that. So anyway, I led the first block. And I think it was the second pitch. I feel these cams, or I feel something hit my leg and I look down this, these cams coming off of our rack. And I reached down and grabbed it and, you know, caught a couple of them. But like I think five of our cams, like down soft my leg and, you know, went down into the goalie at the base. What happened? It was Josh was so focused and dialed on all the gear. And he's like, like cutting down everything. So he had like jury rigged our gear sling, our like double gear sling in a certain way to make it lighter. And he had like forgotten to double back one of the buckles or something. So yeah, we lost a handful of cams on the first pitch. And it's like, oh, well, we've only got like 7,350 feet to go. So I don't know. We just kind of kept going. We didn't want to turn around. We could have wrapped down a couple of pitches and tried to find them. But we just kept going. And then the second at our second, Divi, we ran out of fuel. It ended up taking it's like four and a half days. But like we had kind of counted on, you know, a lot of these routes, you'll find a meltwater coming down, right? Because there's seasonal snow way up high still and water coming down. And so you bring your little straws, your little tubes and you can fill your water bottles and stuff. And so we found that on the first night for the first day. We found some water, no problem. And so therefore you can bring less fuel, this fuel, you know, weighs a lot. And you know, at the time, the gear was pretty good then for sure, 2004. But like you didn't yet have ultra light cams. Those are amazing. And also like single ropes, I think, I think we, we bought like our lead line. We had a tagline. I think our lead line was like a nine six or something, which at the time was like super thin, you know, you know, now you can get a, you get a great like eight, five or something. So everything sort, you know, the weight starts really adding up. And so we're trying to cut weight however we can. And we only brought like one fuel canister further out because we just figured we'd find snow melt all over. But we didn't after the first night. So I'm at the second, Divi, like finding snow to melt for water. We burned through our fuel. But once again, it was kind of interesting like the mindset like we didn't even, we didn't even, we didn't even discuss going down. We just like, you know, put the empty fuel canister in the bottom of our backpack and, you know, went to sleep and we're like in the morning, you know, we're sleeping in like a pile of rocks, a few thousand feet up throughout and in the morning, we just got up and started climbing again. And we were thinking we'd find melt water, trickling down all over the place for like, well, there's got to be more amount water up high. But there wasn't. And so we ended up going the, by the time we'd finished our water and then on water on the descent, but we'd gone 48 hours without water. So it made, you know, we found a couple of icicles here and there and a little handful of snow on a ledge here and there to just just eat. But it's hard to eat much when you're when you're not drinking as well. So I'm sure we both came back quite a few pounds lighter by the time we're done. So, yeah, once again, it was just like the mental focus and sort of like, I think the mind game in climbing is huge. I mean, we think about it even like when we're cragging, you know, you're trying to hard move and you're like, oh, you know, you're not completely committed. Maybe you're a little afraid to fall even though it's maybe it's a well, both the route and a short fall. But, you know, falling's an unnatural thing, you know, you got to work your way past it and a little bit of mental hesitation, even if you're okay with falling. Are you giving 100% to this next move? So the mind game is so huge. And then certainly on a on a massive route like that, the mental game comes really big factor. And I had really ingrained into myself over time, the importance of mental toughness and just, you know, trying to not be stupid, but that's a line that I crossed so many times. I really did looking back. But anyway, you know, mental toughness can also go a little too far. You can push a little too far. But yeah, neither Josh nor I had, and neither was, I mean, it's not, I don't know if you're a met Josh. He's about, he's decidedly on macho. It's not like, it's not like you're, you're looking at two guys who are like straight out of the movie cliffhanger or something like, like, no, it's not like some chess, something macho thing, but we were both just really freaking driven and that we wanted to keep going. So yeah, we never even talked about going down. We just kept going up. Yeah. Well, so it is really interesting coming. I'm like coming from a pretty much exclusively a bouldering or sport climbing background. So the amount of time that I'm locked in in that like, really focused mental space is max 15 minutes, right? So like any given time. So like, how is, what is it like? Do you like feet like in like during a day up there? Like are you locked in the entire time? Yeah, boy, I like that. That's a really good thought you have. Boy, I don't know, no, I know. I'm not like, I think to a certain, I think there's a certain baseline at which you are. Like, I don't, I don't think too often on that route. Not very often did I probably return to like, the way I was 10 minutes before you and I started this call. I'm just like sitting or drinking coffee, pet, or dog hanging out, being like, uh, 10 minutes from now, I'm gonna be chatting. You know, it's never quite that chill, but, but you're not completely locked in like that the whole time. I don't think let, like what you described of the intense focus that you'll have maybe 15 minutes on a route. I don't think that's sustainable for prolonged periods of time. I don't, And I don't know like that. physiology of it or something, but I don't think you could just like your nervous system, I don't think it I think it blow up or something, you know, like I just don't think it work, like you gotta have some downtime. So it's like one of the things that's really cool to me, I still get this quite often, like when you're doing some multi-pitch climbs the other day, I had a moment, like hitting the ballet is usually where it happens, where like everything's calm and maybe maybe the pitch is that you just climb, it was easy, maybe it was hard, who knows, but it's usually like in the morning or the middle of the day, it's not when sun's dropping low and you're starting to get nervous about like oh man, where are we gonna find a rock, a little ledge somewhere that we can like sleep on that because that gets stressful, but like you'll have these moments of beauty, where it's just complete calm and especially when you're in a place like the caracorum or the oscarine or wherever you are and you are just in the middle of no way, there's not another human insight, you're in the most magnificent cathedrals nature, I mean the mountains we all love them so much and they're just so magnificent, you have these moments of like total serenity and it's like and then in a few minutes you might be like you know, leading the sketchiest thing in your life and try it and like really worry about it and they're completely focused, but I think those moments of respite and of serenity are really important, so no, I'm not totally locked in in a way the whole time, I mean granted I'm never thinking about my email or whatever, so there's always a little bit of a baseline, I would say your baseline gets reset, so there's a level of vigilance perhaps and sort of underlying awareness of the situation that you're in, but within that situation at least over time when you've developed enough experience you can relax in those moments and you really do sort of open yourself the true beauty like when you just like look around and think like how lucky am I to be in this place right now with this person, like I'm with the best climbing partner I could ever want in the most beautiful place I could ever imagine this is the sort of stuff that I dreamed about since I started climbing and what an amazing place like so it's amazing and then you have to switch it, you have to turn it off and and when shit starts to hit the fan you got to be ready to deal with it too because on a on a big route like that there's I mean there's just no chance that everything's gonna go perfectly and granted you can be a little smarter and bring more fuel, you can remember to double back the gear sling and Josh is not a spacey guy he just you know, you've got to double back gear sling but yeah you're gonna end up in intense situations and you have to be ready to deal with them because I mean you just can't just I there's just no possible way that you can start freaking out in a situation like that so that the mental game is just huge and I I kind of like that yeah it's really rewarding it's like so engaging it is it is it's so rewarding it you're absolutely right it is so rewarding and it's kind of cool like it the neat thing is I think we can all sort of relate to it in a certain way like just think of how cool it is when like maybe there's a scary move or a hard move or whatever whatever in your brain is is kind of stopping you from from doing this they can be a border problem it can be a sport climate can be a section of mountain biking trail that I have been too timid to like overcome my skulls aren't quite good enough and then once you're able to do it like it's so freaking cool it doesn't matter in the scope of the world nobody cares it doesn't matter but it is so fulfilling to yourself and and I I guess I for me at least I haven't found anything of the equivalent magnitude as to what I found on big rods in the mountains and yeah certainly the rod on great tringo I guess I think as I worried about before when you asked if I'm sick of talking about this yet I'm really not sick of talking about it but like I said I don't I don't want to be like Uncle Rico from the pulling down my talking about being quarterback on a high school football team we're back when like I don't know I mean it was a long time ago it's you never it but it was it was a special experience yeah definitely and I think we're I first silly thing very worth retelling I'm like learning a lot from you like you know 20 years later thinking about it so I guess yeah so well first of all was there any other kind of like disasters that happened like kind of rounding out the end of the story because the well that was pretty early that some things went wrong yeah I know they went wrong pretty early and then they went pretty well for a while and then of course we're gonna encounter difficulties on a rod of that magnitude and things that you can't deal with so there's a couple things Acer are like couple things that I specifically remember still one was when we're still on the way up and near the top and then one was on the descent but like on on like the fourth day it was Josh's block and like the the the ridge that we were climbing in the headwall that we climbed through and way up high on the ridge we kind of got blocked on a shutdown and so it was Josh's block thank God it better to have the better climber and the lead at this point and he swung around to the left onto the there's this famous big wall face that just is just completely sheer the routes there there's a couple routes there that in the other routes done and full on wall style you know or the ledges and the tropes and you know like a four climbing you know like really hard stuff and Josh it was just unbelievable I mean I'm still to this day the most amazing leading the most amazing lead that I've ever witnessed or been privy to I guess it in fully see all the while it's happening because it's around the corner but when I followed it was just it was unbelievable Josh let this pitch where he's like linking together you know some aid climbing here and there you know it's still there so I'm just to go up and work it and free it but you know he's pulling on a couple pieces of gear here and there doing a couple of hook moves and these like running it out on like 511 or 511 plus it's it 20,000 feet elevation we're more than 7,000 vertical feet off the deck and he's doing like like 30 foot run outs in between pieces on this big wall face just because there's no gear to be had he gets into a corner at one point in this corner there's a very gloss like fin ice coming down and we had brought aluminum strap on crampons and one small ice axe each to deal with the very very upper ridge and the descent and Josh hit so we got a piece of gear in and hung on it and then onto his left foot his left rock shoe he he strapped on one of the crampons kept his regular rock shoe on the right foot took the little half size third tool ice ice tool thing with a little miniature ice tool he's tapping into the very gloss with his left side crimping and smearing 511 face on his right and runs it out 35 feet to do a great baby ledge where we spent the night like a hundred feet below the summit it the Southwest summit of a great triangle is the most mind blowing lead I mean it's it was just unbelievable so thank God for having Josh Wharton and your climbing partner and so we we got this perfectly flat ledge it was the best ledge of the route the baby on were like a hundred feet below the Southwest summit which is where we climb to in it but several horizontal pitches away and the next morning I would take over the leading on that train and got us to the top and I just remember lying on that ledge and just like looking out across the caracorn and watching the sunset taking I was it was just an amazing amazing spot there was no worry you know fear I think we're at that point very exhausted so sometimes your exhaustion takes care of worry and fear so that was the one and then the next morning that we hadn't brought a boat kit and so we we wrapped off down this this other face that nobody had come up because we wanted to hit this hanging glacier a picture show it you want to hit this hanging glacier it's kind of the the backside easy route of great Django but we had to wrap down this like a thousand foot or maybe 900 foot a section of big wall and if we hit it just right we could catch the edge of this hanging glacier if we missed it we and it would be screwed because we'd be wrapping down the big wall but so we we try to angle over and then the cracks ran out Josh was leading the wraps that the cracks ran out and I got down you had wrapped down to the anchor he had built I remember looking at it and it just like on his shrugs he's like this all we got was a single RP backed up by two terrible halfway driven knife blades that was the only thing so it's like you know we're wrapping off of you know like an apple seed sized piece of gear I mean I was all there was I think we were too exhausted to worry. I was just like, I mean, seriously, what are you gonna do? You know, like, I mean, like, quite literally, what are you gonna do? You can't do anything. You know, at least you got something in. 'Cause, you know, since we didn't have a boat kit, we just, you know, tried to not make sudden movements and don't shock load it. And we were at down and on the last wrap our ropes got irretrievably stuck with one of them off the way up off the glacier and it's smooth wall. So we had to cut what we had left, which was like a hundred feet of rope and then navigate our way down the hanging glacier and we could get to the spot where there was water and just a long, kind of death march slog down to this camp. So yeah, that anchor was definitely the sketchiest anchor of that drop off of, too. - Yeah, so lots of suffering seems like suffered well. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah, we managed it okay, you know, like it was, yeah, it was the best, I guess, yeah, the best Alpine route. I've experienced I've ever had, you know, I just, yeah, it's kind of weird, it doesn't even, I know it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it was me, you know? Like it is, yeah, you ever have those things where like something happened or you did something kind of cool and you're like, man, that's something. I'm like, I'm just like a regular dude who like, you know, in the time I was living in a seven by 11 foot shed that we called the Chicken Coop, up in Estus Park. And you know, I'm like, I'm just like a kid who is in the Chicken Coop and like scrapes together, living barely, doing some part time, writing and editing work and all, but jobs and stuff like that. Like, wow, I just, I don't know, it's kind of weird. It's like, you read these stories and these big routes that inspired you when you were learning the climb and they still inspire me now and I look back and see what people are doing these days. It's so, so impressive. And I don't know, that's kind of weird. It feels like it happened as somebody else maybe, but at the same time as it was a truly an amazing in-depth experience and the care of quorum and the people in Pakistan and in the villages and our dear friend go for, who runs a travel service now. And he was like, he was an assistant cook and in a cook, he had just a cook working for a different travel company at the time. He became like a dear friend. He's been over here to the US with us. We've had to help him out with getting his business running and I don't know, we just had life forged some lifetime long memories. - Yeah, absolutely. So in kind of preparing for this episode, you wanted a flag for me that sometimes disaster style kind of is romanticized almost and that it can be pushed you far. And that sort of thing, can you tell me a little bit about that perspective? - Yeah, yeah, no doubt that that's really good, Hannah. I mean, I do think that the risk perspective is so fascinating and that changes over time with a lot of us, I think, I'm less likely to accept big risks now than I was then, which is pretty natural. It tends to happen as we age, which I've always thought was a little bit ironic because as you age, you're coming closer to the natural end of your lifespan. It just be honest and frank. So in a way, I have a lot less to lose right now. I should be freaking going for it right now. Like, back then I still have a whole life ahead of me. But I do think that taking me risk is such a hard one. You don't want to be stupid, you don't want to take stupid risks. And that's what, if you take disaster style literally, it's really stupid, right? But I mean, you have to understand the context, of course. And the intent behind it, the philosophy behind it, the philosophy behind it, I still stand by because I would argue, and I think there's, I mean, there's health data on like, you know, unhealthy lifestyles in activity. It's like a plague affecting American health and throughout the world. Like a lot of us should embrace a little bit more of a tongue in cheek disaster style approach. Like, get off the fucking couch and get outside and do something, you know, things like that, right? And so on the one hand, like, there are elements to disaster style of not being afraid to live your life. That's sort of what, I think that is the more literal translation of what we meant by disaster style. Not being afraid to live your life and to live fully. And for us, that meant something different than it might, for some other people, because we're all different. We all have different risk tolerances. We all have different ambitions. We have different things that make us feel complete inside. Within the climbing realm, this stuff is really dangerous. Like, there's no question about it. And I've gotten, and like the great triangle thing wasn't even the bar of this strung out that I've ever been, I don't think. It was close, but there's another one that I'll be, Trump said, which is kind of crazy. Like, I have luck. I mean, luck is huge. And you don't want to rely on luck. Like, that's not a good strategy, right? Like, we all talk about things like skills and mental toughness and being strong when things get hard. Yeah, that's all true. I mean, you cannot dismiss that. But at the same time, luck plays a role. I have really good friends who are so much better than I am, and they dive in on this. I mean, is, yeah, there is a lot component to it for sure. And yet, if you're ever going to get off the damn couch and go outside and do things, you have to be willing to embrace some risk in your life. And risk tolerance is such a personalized thing. The thing with climbing, I would suggest that people do, and this is a, as I say, not as I do, because I mess this up, which is a build, build a base of experience and wisdom before, you know, and have your risk parallel that as you go and your risk acceptance. So basically do so intentionally and consciously. A lot of times early on. Now, I would actually say this wasn't the case on Great Dringo. And I'll explain that in a second, because it sounds stupid when I'm saying. But I, a lot of times in my earlier days, I was a train wreck. I was just going for it. Like, my nickname when I was learning a climb in my early years around, Missoula was sketchy Kelly. And like, I didn't know it, but people were calling me that. They're like, yeah, it's just Kelly Kidney's like, he's really fit, he's driven, he's really nice guy. But he, yeah, does not know what he's doing. He is so scary, like don't go out with that guy. And I was a total train wreck. I totally was. Over time, it became more of a conscious decision. Our risk tolerance on Great Dringo was much higher than what you could responsibly suggest or prescribe than anybody else do. And yet, nobody made us do that. We did that on our own. That was our choice. And I stand by and I will argue to them out with anybody who wants to pangle with me on this. This is, that's your choice. That is your choice. Nobody is telling us what we can and can do with our climbing. And I think that's really important. I don't want somebody, I mean, I want to be educated with our risk assessment. Within that realm, if you want to consciously start up a 7,400 vertical foot route with a lightweight back back and no bolt kit, you're totally free to do that. Like, go for it. But know what the hell you're getting into. That's all. And we all do that on our own level. It's the same thing with lead clon-- I mean, this exact same mentality applies to someone deciding to do their first lead when they've been top-roading. OK, which one do you want to do? Are you sure you feel comfortable enough that you're not going to get the rope behind your leg? Or that, you know, is this the route you want to do? How likely is it that you're going to fall? Are you sure you're ready for this? If the answer is yes, then be completely laser-focused and do it, and do it right. As best you can. That's sort of my philosophy. Yeah, I like that. I like how that is expansive and it's not just kind of exclusive. Sometimes I feel like people talk about risk analysis like it only exists in alpinism, but I think the way you're describing it is so true. It's like a spectrum, yeah. For sure. I mean, you look at how many-- you guys had a great episode with Pete get a bit about the accidents thing and the woman who helped with the research, is it Valerie? Valerie. Yeah, yeah. She was great. And I love what you guys are doing there. And it's not just alpine climbing, it's dangerous. A lot of accidents happen, crying as well. And there are so many ways that things can go wrong with climbing. You can tie your knot right. And I've had mistakes with this. It's kind of crazy, like complacency and things like that can just settle in. You're doing a multi-pitch descent. And suddenly you're on a ledge and you realize you didn't clip in. I mean, it is so easy to make a mistake. You have to remain vigilant at all times. And I think we do have a lot of responsibility for how we approach risk. And a lot of these things are within our control and some of them aren't. And I think the coolest thing in a way about climbing is that you can pick exactly where you want. to be on that continuum. You can go to the care quorum, then try and climb drops if you want. Like, and if you're gonna do that, like, like do it, but make sure that that that's what you truly want to do, and that you're not fooling yourself. It, 'cause it's totally okay if that's not what you wanna do. Like, like, like, that's totally fine. Like, there are so many places you can find your spot in climbing. And I just think that's the coolest thing ever. I mean, I love when I see like, you know, like a 80 year old person out at the crag. I'm like, that is just the coolest thing ever, you know? You can do it any way you want. You can top rope all the time. You can boulder all the time. You can lead, you can do rock, you can do ice, you can do all-pun. You just, you should probably be honest with yourself about what level of risk you're willing to accept. Definitely. (upbeat music) No one asked for a layer like the Patagon and the Nano Air Ultra Light before because no one knew it was possible to make. But when Patagon and your field testers wouldn't give their Proto's back, they knew they had something special. Built with incredibly green bowl full range synthetic insulation and a never before seeing 20 gram weight, is the mid layer you can put on at the start of your all kind objectives and forget about completely. It offers a boost of warmth and protection you need in spitting snow or howling wind without making you so hot or shut down that you blow up when moving fast. It's compressible, wind resistant and just warm enough to keep you in your sweet spot for longer. (upbeat music) Okay, so that was a lot of really interesting conversation about alpinism, the azimrig, disaster style, risk assessment, that sort of thing. I'd love to also ask you a little bit about your writing life. Let's just start with like, how did, like I know that you're not doing as much writing now, but how did or does your writing and alpinism interact or even just writing and climbing interact? Like when you're out, you know, when you're out doing this, where you like thinking about and this is gonna make a good story, or does it like you reflect on it afterward? - Mostly the lottery, you know, like, yeah, when you're in it, like I don't think too often am I thinking about writing while I'm climbing, but you know, that I would keep journals on trips and things like that and be thinking about writing like, like I don't know, I think this humans were kind of natural storytellers and so a lot of times, when you're just doing things, you'll be thinking about stories and maybe history and how about this and how about that and maybe these things interact and make this actually relates to that. And then, you know, later you might be like, no, I don't think that makes any sense at all. I don't know what I was thinking there, but it's, you know, like my, I think that way quite a bit, like I'm always sort of thinking about cause, effect, reasons, ideas, what makes sense, what doesn't, what does sensical even mean? Like where we humans are like, meaning, making, seeking creatures and a lot of these things, I mean, you know, people are like, oh, well, that's just a construct. Fuck, everything's a construct, besides like sleep, eat, drink, die. I mean, like everything in our human experience is create our constructs. Like that is one of the most fascinating things that we do. And so I guess I am sort of always thinking about, you know, stories and ideas and stuff like that. I used to be maybe, maybe more into that. No, I don't know. Actually, now I'm doing the exact same thing, thinking about what I'm thinking about. I think I still think that way quite a bit, but one of the many greatest things, cause I probably said the greatest thing about climbing is that a few times now. One of the coolest things I kind of think is that the complete presence required when you're climbing, especially when you're on lead, that doesn't allow space for any of that, for any of that swirling thought and back and forth and wondering about this, wondering about that, even if it's enjoyable thought, eat your completely focused and completely present, which of course is a weakness in a way. It shows that climbing is a crutch. I mean, the true master can get that sitting on the cushion's string at sunflower, and even the cushion in the sunflower crutches in a way. But, you know, I'm not quite there yet, so I need climbing to completely focus me within the, but I don't really know. I guess when I got into writing, I was kind of interested in it, I sort of thought maybe a cool thing sometimes to try writing. It's not my background, it's not my educational background or anything, but I was living in the Colorado Mountain School Guide check, which is where I moved my first lip to Estus, or where I lived when I first moved to Estus, and it was, at the time, it was a true shack. Like, I went and sought one slater after they kicked us out and remodeled it, and it was like really nice. Like, this ain't no shack. I'm getting on the nostalgic, you know? Like, when the in Dan Gambino, and the Danimal, when we lived in the shack together, it was like the year 2000, this place, 65 bucks a month, rent, and there's like holes in the wall. There's no heat. We didn't have running water either. Like the door didn't work. Like people would just randomly come in and crash in the couch and be like, "Hey, who are you?" They were like, "I'm Mike's friend." Like, who the hell's Mike? I didn't do it. This is my house, get out of here. This is a decent shack. You're messing it up. There was like, this beer cans all over the floor 'cause every day after guiding everybody would combine, bullshit and tell stories and stuff. But anyway, right around that time, I had been trying to write an article about basically about alpinism, and I had interviewed, who was then the editor of the American Alpine Journal Christian Beckwith at the time. I didn't view them for this article that I was trying to write. It wasn't that good. It was never published. But Christian said, but he said, he thought my article sounded cool. And therefore, when that AAC gave him a little bit of money for like an assistant, which is needed. I mean, the AJA is just way too much work for anyone person to put together themselves. He asked me to apply, and I think I was the only applicant. And so basically, he Christian Beckwith just like, thought that my thinking about alpine climbing was kind of something that he liked and asked me if I was interested in this like part time part year editorial assistant job that I could do from the shack because I had rigged without the owners of CMS knowing I had like figured out how to splice the Wi-Fi thing. I can't believe I didn't start a fire. I went down to the main building and like spliced. I said, I don't know how to do this now. I don't know how I figured out how to do it then. I spliced off the Wi-Fi thing and like went to like radio shack or something by a bunch of wire and then like strung it up above somehow, like a strong align from there to the shack. And so I had Wi-Fi and not Wi-Fi, just like plugged in landline internet is Wi-Fi. I don't think with around, but in the shack. And so I started doing this job with the AJA, which was just awesome. It was like my dream job. I mean, the American Alpine Journal, I still rever it. I mean, it was just so cool. Like pouring through ODAJs when I was a young climber, Mizzula, there's this guy, Gray Thompson, older climber, real legend, did like the first set of the American direct on Denali and he's a professor in Mizzula and climber. And he was always so supportive and really cool. And in his wife, Eloise, they had the whole collection of American Alpine Journal's not always go to their house. Like fourth room and daydream. And so for me, when Christian offered me that editorial assistant position, and I didn't have any like writing credibility or anything, he just knew that I like eat, live, sleep, alpinism and so, and I guess he saw maybe that I had some sort of potential to do a decent job with it. And so that was my start with the American Alpine Journal when I was living in the shack and working in a John Harlem and came at her and then do old and I was the senior editor for the AJ for Honor Pride, the last half of my like, like 12 year tenure. And it was amazing, like working on the AJ was the coolest thing. It was, it was like a real honor in a way to be able to compile all of this meaningful information and work with climbers to get their reports. It's not like the editing isn't like magazine style or books style editing. It's pretty dry, you know, it's, it, the feature articles oftentimes have more color and then some of the reports can be really entertaining and I have some color in them. I used to love this little jam, you'd find where someone like somehow writes there, 'cause it's supposed to be a 500 word report basically on, do what, where, when, about your new route. And sometimes people, there's some amazing storytellers out there. Like someone who's like not a writer for a living, he didn't start emailing them like, "Hey, I might've asked like what you do for living a "I'm a carpenter, you know, I just find it." We're looking about like this person is the most amazing storyteller ever. Yeah, there's some real really wonderful stories out there Um and to work on them and and also deep in my own knowledge at these places was really cool. There was definitely More than once I can think of I think three new routes I've done And I'll find zones around the world where like I had inside data This would be like insider trading or whatever. We were like in the stock market like it There were reports that I was working on and the aj was going to press But it wasn't going to be out until after I was done with my own personal trip and I was like I'm going there And the only way I knew about it was this picture that was about to run in the aj And we went and walked throughout yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's fringe benefits, you know That's so funny But that that was sort of my my start with writing and then I It was it was all self-taught But you know with with the help of editors and writers I worked with like you know I learned a lot from Christian and then from John Harland and then from Dewold and and this over time You know, it's like anything you naturally develop your your circle of associates and so I started becoming Friends with other writers all of whom are were more knowledgeable and experienced than me and we'd exchange ideas And you just kind of learn as you go for me. It's been a self-taught thing and it somehow kind of worked out Yeah, probably not going to like own a mansion if you're trying to make a living in the climbing world with writing But I also had a flexible schedule. I could climb all I wanted Um aside from when I'm on deadline But in with the aj it was just awesome because you know, I'd work like half the year and then Just you know, fuck off and go climbing the rest of time. I'd just like save up my paychecks and do a little bit of freelancing on the side and And just go climbing and come back broke and be like uh, uh, yeah, you guys is the ag contract about the start now because uh Because I need some money But and I would always keep my expenses low, which you can do when you're living in a shack Right one I'm curious how much you can talk about this But one of the things that's really interesting to me about your writing resume is that you co-wrote the push As a writer myself. I'm interested in like what co-writing is like. I mean obviously Tommy has such an incredible story and you co-wrote the push with him. Can you tell us a little bit about that process Absolutely, it's really an interesting sort of dynamic and as I learned more about it from talking with other writers and doing some Reading and research. It's a tough one to pull off um usually like Like the co-writing relationships oftentimes I guess falter like There are a lot of stories out there that are just where they We're just didn't work out so that I feel like the chemistry sort of needs to be right and I mean Tommy You know Tommy's like such a wonderful wonderful person and like My house and Estes like I it's a little tiny cabin that I'd bought on like a Like a direct loan from his parents because they wanted to sell it to another climber in town This is like you know long time ago, you know, so I've got the soul five, you know about a little 500 square foot house directly from his parents and then Tommy is my next door neighbor so pretty soon there's like a path between our yards You know, I just like kind of wandered over there and be like, hey man. What's up? What are you doing? One hang out? Yeah, it's just like Yeah, so pretty sure when it came really close friends and in your Tommy, I think it's like Obviously best dollar a hound climber in the world maybe and And he's got so many amazing experiences and amazing stories and he's He's really a very thoughtful person So he has a lot of thoughts and insights, but you know He hadn't like put them all together, right? And sort of is a writer that sort of what you do in a certain way You put these thoughts together and try to weave them into a cohesive narrative and a story that That is engaging and I had experience doing that I had already written a tower and Had made my living as a writer and editor for about 15 years at that point and I knew Tommy stories so well as a as a close personal friend and So we we just it was just a natural collaboration You know, I mean after that after the Don Law was so Or to it is the way that just blew up. I mean John Bench the New York Times, you know got interested in it I mean, I talked about the role of luck with like climbing and risk and everything I mean luck plays such a role in so many realms in life like whatever it was about our cap and Tommy called well and or maybe a backup about climbing That interested John Branch a Pulitzer prize-winning writer for the New York Times for whatever reason John Branch Was interested in this so it's like all right. Well, that's pretty lucky break And then the New York Times like wow this is really fascinating and so he run it on the cover and then all the readers are like This is amazing those guys are nuts blah blah blah, you know Well, do they use those cleat on things where all the grips at you all the like standard things But like how they get their hopes up there now and it runs on the cover of the New York Times for something like eight days straight Or whatever and then he and Kevin send and it's just like you know Tommy's backstory, which is so amazing from his childhood up ringing and then You know the Kyrgyzstan thing and chopping off his finger. He becomes a better climber after chopping off his finger How does that work like I still can't climb his warm-ups and I have all my fingers and he gets better after your chops I have his finger. I mean what a remarkable person. I mean and He's such a good kindhearted person and a deep thinker and so but but you know Tommy It in his defense was well. I've been like China's great by teaching myself how to write. He's been busy becoming like the best all around climber in the world You know the best all around rock climber and so he He needed help putting those things all together and so it was a natural fit It was just really cool like we worked together. We talked about everything along the way We came up with the outline while a proposal. I mean, I even remember like It was so crazy like after he sent the Don Wall he and Kevin at like he got like Flute like all of a sudden like he needed like an agent and like an nowadays people You know, I mean climbers become more mainstream, but I think everyone's like an agent. What else that you know and like my brother laws a screenwriter And so I I'm like hey Phil what's an agent? Yeah We're all trying to figure this stuff out, you know, and so I mean he gets like an agent and then the agent like the next thing You know you was still like in your assembly like like right afterward the agents like You know we got flight to New York City to meet with book publishers everybody wants this story and Tommy's like uh, Kelly kid. I remember Tommy was like I think he was like in the airport Get ready to do like a late night flight And he's like we got to come up with like a at least like a one-page synopsis or something of what this is gonna be about And like I dude hold on and I just like stay up late like Yeah, this thing send it to him and you know Hey, when you think about this you wish we changed this part So we changed this part and like we we we work up together and then he goes into meetings and Tommy I mean he is such a good guy like it means probably the nicest person I've ever met again my life And if you can imagine like you go to like big book publishers and stuff from New York City book publishers Who are all wanting this story and you know that they're probably so used to Feeling with like jerks and big egos and everything and here comes like the most like disarmingly Quiet polite kind person like wait. This is a superhero. You're like. Yeah, this is and and so it just like It took off in there. So then we had to write you know Tommy got You know all that figured out. I guess everybody wanted it He he published her and all that and then you know it to be clear This is this is Tommy's book, you know, I'd just helped out and this was his story. I was a co-writer. It is Tommy's For sure, but you know, we we were mutually involved in all the writing. I mean, you know, he did I don't even remember the name of the agent. I don't and I'm sure they I wouldn't know me from Adam You know, it's just like I'm in the background and what we would do would be like But we came up with an outline like a good story arc that we thought would work pretty well a lot of times Those things change quite a bit from the beginning to the end that one surprisingly We we stayed pretty true to the course of the outline that we came up with the first place And then it was just like Tommy and I getting our system together. It's almost like I mean You meet a new climbing partner and in your work on your systems and so Tommy and I are like we're We're now working on on this book project, which we hadn't done before and so um it would be like You know, we talked beforehand All right, this next chapter this section here's what we want to try to cover. There's something to take home points Here's what we want to try to get into this and that and then there's learning along the way you're always adjusting Which is so much like any relationship in life in a way like like I think I remember early on like like Tommy was and I think it was Part partly my fault because sometimes I can Be like to direct and to critical and I think there were times where I caused You know inadvertently of course, but I like caused Tommy to shut down a little bit and become a little self-conscious Uh, it was the outcome of that or the result of that. And so some of his drafts, they wouldn't be quite as open and storytelling vibrant as when we would talk in person. And so then we got thinking, all right, well, how about this then? Turn off the spell checker. Don't even worry about anything. It just, just get it out. You know, just, it's kind of funny, like in writing. I've always tried to remember to tell myself like my number one obligation is to write a shitty first draft because I, so I could relate to what Tommy was dealing with because I do the same thing. I'll get to hung up partway through and maybe you do the same. It seems like you're familiar with this. Like, you know, you get stuck. You're like, wait, I'm only 10% through getting this, what would I, what I envision to be this draft? And I'm like getting hung up on these details, and I'm worried about this. No, no, no, no, block, stop, stop, stop that spiraling. Get right a crummy first draft. That's all you have to do. And so you know, we had things to work out like that. And Tommy's remarkably adjustable and open-minded. So he suddenly started just being like, all right, man, I'm not going to be self-conscious. I'm going to just get it all down. He's like, and then you can deal with it. And then I would like cleaning up. I'd move this around, move that around. You know, some of it's like standard editing. And then sometimes I'd command and like rewrite it, or maybe I'd, you know, write a little section where I'd be like, you know, dude, when we were having beers the other night, you told me about this, this, and this. And it wasn't in your draft. So I just wrote like a few paragraphs here to kind of connect this to that or whatever. Fix up as you, as you feel needed if I did it wrong or whatever. And we'd just go back and forth, back and forth all the time. So everything, everything was, was back and forth, back and forth. We were just always working together on it. It was kind of funny too because our schedules, I'm a habitual night owl, like I've always been that way. You know, sometimes a little kid. And people are like, oh, that must be great. A bit, you'll work done. It's like, well, not really because I still get, you know, eight hours of sleep a night. So like, if I'm up till four working, I mean, just sleep till noon, you know, it's like, so it's actually not more efficient. It's just, it's just I, my brain sort of comes online better in the evening for some reason. Tommy's the opposite. So and when I'm in writing mode, it's crazy. I mean, I'll, if everything I've ever published, I bet like 80% of the best work has come after 10 p.m. It's so weird. And I get these grooves and I'll be up. And suddenly it's 2 a.m. 3 a.m. 4 a.m. It would, it would collaborate with Tommy because he's an early riser. And so it would be so funny like I'd be, you know, we're working on a section and I'd be like, hey, when you think about this, you know, on an email, it was kind of before everyone was texting all the time. Not the text message hadn't been invented, but we were, wasn't working on email. And I'd be like, you know, ask him questions, like, hey, what do you think about this? How about if I move this around or check out this section, blah, blah. And we would sometimes overlap as I'm getting ready to go to bed, but he's awake. It's like 5 a.m. or 5 30 in the morning, like I send an email, Tommy replies immediately. And he'd be like, dude, you should really go to bed. I'm like, I know, I know, I know. And I go to bed and be like, I know, I'll talk to you early afternoon when I wake up. But yeah, so we just went, went back and forth kind of crafting it together. So I think in a way, things like this, it, I've heard the analogy used before of like of sculpture, like sculpting, you know, say a pot, right? You got a lump of clay to start with. And it's like, oh man, that could be anything like depending on how we shape it. So you do a rough shape. And yet you refine that rough shape and you're refining, finding, you're refining. So much of this stuff is the refinement, the refining over and over and over. And then you're like, oh, this little idea, if we worded this just right, I think it'll subtly connect to this thing over here. And we're not going to make it too obvious because no one wants to be clobbered over the head with an idea. But we draw these connections and hey, how about if we connect this to this and won't we move this around here. And so we were just doing doing that the whole time. And I mean, it was really cool to work on that book with Tommy. And I was delighted as to how well it was received. You know, it seemed to do really well. There was a, I think it was made at one point like a New York Times bestseller list, maybe just for like a short period of time or something. But it was kind of cool because like, it's a climbing book and it's not like about Everest or something like that. You know, it's like a hard core technical climbing book, you know, the, you know, Tommy's life in a down wall. I don't know. There was a remark box, pretty much. It was really, and I mean, Tommy is kind of, well, I mean, he's totally the reason. He's 100% the reason. I mean, his story as it exists in the world and what he's done with his life is the reason for the book. Like, I had nothing to do with that. I just helped tell the story. And Tommy was like the best person I'm adding to more to work with on that because he, he does a great job of detaching from his ego, which I think is one of the hard things that happens a lot of times. So a lot of times with it in some of my reading and research and this all, Tommy made sense to me is that one of the hard things and one of the difficult things about like high end like, I don't know, calm like celebrity memoirs or something is that like that they're oftentimes a little bit flat or not vulnerable enough. You know, it's like we like stories when people are real. We don't want too much of the superhero complex because everybody is fallible. Everybody struggles. Everybody is going to have difficulties in life no matter who you are, no my how lucky you are, no matter how, but that you are whatever it is, everybody is going to have hard times in life if you live long enough. That's the only way you're not to have troubles in life is if you die young. And even then you still might have troubles. And so, you know, you need to, you need to, we wanted to make that real. We wanted to Tommy is such a real person. He's not you know, he's not some superstar. Like, it was funny, you know, I know you're climbing in Tennessee. He and I went to Tennessee one time. We were working on the book together. We went up there to go craving. And by the way, like, full disclaimer, like, I am nowhere near the climber Tommy is. Like, that's why we do single pitch things. So I can blame on the hard things and he can blame me on the easy things. But we're there. And like, all of a sudden, like, you know, it's like, you know, after Donwall, I mean, people sort of knew who Tommy was, but then after Donwall, everybody knew who he was. One time we were flying somewhere together and like, on the airport shuttle from the remote parking lot, like, this guy like, he's over on the, excuse me, Tommy called wrong. Like, wow, this is wild, man. Like, and then we're, we're in Tennessee this one time. And it's like kind of like, handful of people like, come over and sort of once talk to Tommy. And he's so generous and kind, he's like, hey, how are you doing and stuff? And I just kind of like, you know, kind of faded, you know, the background. Because I mean, which is totally fine. Like, like, people are there to talk to me. And they shouldn't, they, they should be there to talk to Tommy. There's one kid, but it's hard. He was a really sweet, like young, young man. And he, like, he looks over at me. And I could tell he like felt bad, like I'm being excluded. And he comes over and he's like, oh, hey, so, so what's your name? And I'm like, dude, it's all right. Man, like, you can, you just call me Subby. It's all right. I know you're here to talk to Tommy, man. It's good. Someone asked him to sign their rock shoe in the parking lot. Like the T.C. They, they, they, they like reach on their car and pull it out of the T.C. Pro. And I asked him to sign it. It is so funny. But he's so gracious and so generous. And, and also that turns into, to our writing work together. So I think a lot of the celebrities, they, you know, they, they're, they're used to like, everybody kissing their ass all the time. And maybe the ego can get in a way. And they get a little bit of this like a hero complex like that the shield of invincibility. I've called it before in my own thoughts and my own little notes is the shield of invincibility. And it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm the man. I'm hot shit. I'm this. I'm that. It's like, man, oh man. It's kind of weird. Like sometimes maybe a you need to carry a little bit of that to get yourself on to hard things. But in everyday life, it kind of just makes you an asshole. And so Tommy doesn't have that. But I think a lot of celebrities probably do. And, and as a result, sometimes their memoirs aren't that good. But, but Tommy, like, to his credit when we're working on it, like anytime there was criticism or I'm like, hey, how about, like, we, I'm going to rewrite this this way. And you see how it is. He was so gracious and just perfect to work with. So I, I, that's probably why I should never begin being a, be in a, a co-writing relationship because it's probably not going to get me better than it was with Tommy. Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I'm kind of curious about is like, and maybe this wasn't a challenge because like, you seem, you have this personal friendship with him. It seems like there was times you were able to like, remind him of like, your personal, like, you've told me in your own voice this story. Like, and then you kind of were able to like, focus that in in the actual writing process. But like, I'm, I can tell from reading your own writing and then the way talking to you, you're a very funny person. And it's not like Tommy isn't funny. He's just barely earnest, right? Like, I feel like he's to good. And so like, did that conflict that voiced difference conflict at all? Where you like, we should make money. But not really, I totally can do what you're thinking for sure. It is kind of weird. Like, I, I just sifted my brain a little bit. I'm like, you know, this, this, is Tommy's story that I'm helping him to write. Like this isn't my story. And so once I kind of accepted that, which is pretty easy to do, because it's pretty obvious, it wasn't too hard. The only thing is, Sony noticed that there's a couple of times where you can see a couple of my my phrases work in a thing, including, including I think I, I think I worked in the term mouth breather somewhere and there and Sony noticed that, like I suspect that was one of your sentences. Yeah, probably so. I don't know, probably is too nice. He doesn't call people mouth breather. I do. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay. Well, as we wrap up this episode, I just love to ask a few more questions about storytelling climbing. Like, what do you personally think makes the best climbing stories? Like, what's your favorite type of climbing story? Probably something where there's some sort of internal tension and it probably involves some vulnerability, not too much vulnerability. I'm not a big sucker for two. Let me show how old I am, like old man. I'm not too much of a fan of endless belly aching. So like endless complaining. I mean, like on the one hand, like, I mean, that is real. We all struggle. I totally recognize that and I don't try to diminish anyone's struggle. But good Lord, kid, like, like, like someone, whatever, someone on the internet, downgrad your project, who cares? That is not a tragedy and that doesn't probably make a good story. So, you know, I, I am a little bit of a fan of, you know, some in life, at least some resilience. And so if the story is too much of what I call belly aching, I'm not sure. That said, there are many of the best stories. Do have this element of vulnerability, sensitivity, honest and openness about how someone felt. And if it's a, if it has to do with difficulties and difficult times, I think it's really going to be hard to get the tone just right. But it can be really rewarding when someone does that. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be free to express problems and, and you know, there's a lot of things in the world that are wrong and we should, we should work to make those better. If it's coming off as grievance and you got a bone to pick and a chip under your shoulder and your piss and you just want to rant that someone, that's so rarely, so rarely comes off well on the page. It is really fucking hard to pull that off in an eloquent way that that makes for a bit of story. So I think that's one thing that that's hard is to, but yet I think that's when stories can be the best as if you can write about difficult things without sliding into grievance and endless belly aching as my old man term goes, but like recognize the difficulty in life and the difficult situations and whatever the obstacle is that you're dealing with, it's giving you trouble, but write about it in a way that brings the reader in, makes you feel something but isn't just bitching and complaining. There's nobody. I mean, no, if you want that, just go to Instagram or whatever. I think I want an element of joy which I think can happen alongside difficulties, right? So like you look at Tommy's story, like you guys been through quite a bit. I mean, he was, you know, kidnapped and dirgist and by, you know, a militant jihadist group watched a person get murdered, right? In front of him, shot off his own finger. He's like, oh, yeah, you know, he's been through things that many people can deal with which is like heartbreak and to try to do so with an element of perspective and resilience while also being vulnerable at the same time. So vulnerability along with strength. And in a certain way of thinking, vulnerability is a sign of strength, right? Like if you can be open enough and let down your guard enough to be open about your feelings, but there's a real trick when you're writing about things, I think, to not just descend into complaining and whining and blaming everyone else. Like, I don't know, I remember, you know, like, yeah, like probably like damn near 50 years ago, literally like the first time I probably remember my mom just being like, you know, and I'm complaining about something like a life isn't fair kiddo. And I'm like, yeah, I've thought of that so many times and I can piss, moan and complain like anybody. I get annoyed by things and everything else, but it doesn't make for good writing usually. Life is hard. Like I think we want to see stories where like people deal with struggle in a vulnerable way because we all have challenges. There's always, I think most good stories have a certain barrier, something you're trying to, trying to deal with or perhaps overcome or come to acceptance with, but to do so somewhat gracefully without sounding like you're just blaming everyone else. And I think there's so much beauty in the world also. There's a lot of hardship in the world too, but there's incredible beauty. And when we can see the beauty alongside the sadness or the heartbreak or the injustices. And yet, it's like and yet dot, dot, you know, and yet there is still beauty. The sun still rises. We have a new opportunity with the next day. You know, there's and climbing. I mean, I got how lucky are we to get to do this. You know, that like Sirius say, we are all so fortunate to be able to spend our time doing this in these remarkable places like, oh my gosh, it doesn't, it doesn't negate the hard tips someone's dealt with. But when those two things are, are there together alongside each other, I think it can make for a really deep, complex and in, in well felt story. Oh my gosh. I, I'm having so much fun chatting with you. But now, yeah, I was going to say now this episode is going to be twice as long as most of us. Oh no. I, I'm sorry about your editing work. I had to view my bed. No, you're fine. So I guess I am going to wrap up the episode, even though we could keep chatting forever, forever. Thank you so much for sharing all of your stories and all of your jokes. You're welcome. Yeah, thanks. I mean, it's been a real, real honor. So thanks a lot. I appreciate it. And thanks to the American Alpine Club for everything. I mean, the recognition thing is really nice. But that's what I want to be gracious. Like, thank you. But I definitely, there are so many amazing climbers in our world. And I hardly feel worthy of any of it. I'm grateful for the man for that opportunity I got when I was living in the shack and Christian Beckwith gave me that offer to be as editorial assistant for God. I don't remember. It wasn't a whole lot of money. But the opportunity to work on the American Alpine Journal for a young climber, just scraping by was just like, it was like a dream come true for me. And it's had a big influence on my life. So yeah, thanks to you all. Whether you're the type to throw your harness in your bag right before you scoot out the door or your packed the week before you leave, we know that missing a piece of essential gear can make or break your climbing day. That's why it's so important to get a hold of your AAC membership this June. Our rescue benefit, deep gear discounts and access to essential climbing knowledge makes an AAC membership as essential as your car keys. Besides, you can get a free limited edition t-shirt when you join the club, renew your membership or donate $30 or more during the month of June only. Use promo code dirtbag@checkout at americanalpineclub.org.