146: Success Story: Braden Shares the 5 Specific Things That Changed His Life and Helped Him Quit Pornography

Today I'm really excited to share with you a conversation that I had with Braden, who's a man who went through my 12-week program, and his life is totally different because he's eliminated pornography. The reason why I think this interview will be really helpful to anybody who's struggling is because he outlines with such clarity five specific things that made the biggest difference for him. You can then take these things, implement them in your own life, and see significant progress. And when he did that, his self-esteem improved, the guilt and the shame that he experienced dissolved, and his marriage with his wife is so much better as a result of him doing these steps. He talks about how low he felt, having tried everything he could, but it still didn't work. Then when he discovered that there's a totally different way to approach this, it gave him the hope that he needed to try again. With this new set of tools, he was able to achieve the result he had been seeking for years. So I want to introduce to you Braden, and have you listen along to his experience. So you can not only feel a sense of hope, but also have some clarity about what you can do today to start making progress in your own life. Well, I just want to again thank you, Braden, so much for your willingness to come on here. I just even what you said right before we started, which was that you've learned so much, and you know how bad it felt back then. So you want to do anything you can to support and pay this forward. So I appreciate you being willing to share your experience to hopefully help somebody else who is struggling. So yeah, thank you for coming on. Yeah, I appreciate you letting me share and I'm excited to do so. Like you said, I do, I feel like it would be kind of selfish of myself to go through the things that I've gone through and learn what I've learned and not share it. So I'm excited to do that. Thank you. It goes such a long way. So I appreciate your willingness. I'd love to even just get a little bit of background about where you felt like you were with regard to this struggle. And maybe you can just go to that point, just some background. Okay. Yeah, so I guess probably similar to most people, I it started as a young kid. I was probably 11 years old when I kind of was exposed to it. And and really didn't have a good understanding of what it was and what I was doing and was pretty naive. And and anyway, got hooked on it that way. And it was probably about 16 or so. I you know, recognized that it was that it was a problem that I couldn't stop myself and that it had a hold of me. And I did I sought some help through some religious leaders of this show. And and and it did help. And I would go, you know, a couple weeks, a few months. And then I would end up, you know, coming back to it. And and I even had a couple years where I served a mission and didn't have any problems. And and then come home and pretty much right after coming home, just fell right back into it. And and just felt really terrible about myself that I that I would come back to it after, you know, being free from it and feeling good and and doing good. And so, I know, you know, just that continual cycle of of doing good and then and then relapsing and coming back to it. And anyway, you know, life progressed and got married and and we had kids and and still kind of had some of those ups and downs and and, you know, before my wife and I got married, we I I let her know that I was struggling in this way. So she was she was aware of it from the beginning, but I wasn't very open with her about how I was doing it. And you know, when I was struggling and those kind of things. And I I hid them and that's the part of this problem that I had, you know, this whole time is is just hiding it and trying to kind of blend in and hide and and you know, there's there's a lot of lying and the steep that's involved with the hiding the addiction. And so anyway, I kind of did this till about 2022, I went again to a religious leader and and sought some help from that end and and he he counseled me and and I did really well and I felt really well and I felt like I was free of it, you know. And then I I again relapsed in the fall and and it hit really hard and it was I think probably the most hopeless I've ever felt and and I just felt like there really wasn't a hope, you know, I felt like that was the best effort I had ever given to to beat in it and I still failed and and so I felt really hopeless and so I just kind of gave up and went back to it and being secretive and was distant with my wife and just kind of pretty much living a lie really and anyway we fast forward to a number of months ago, I opened up with my wife again and and when I did that it really opened that that hopeless wound that I had and I had thoughts of of suicide and self-harm and this was really really at a terrible low and and thankfully she you know she said you know I think you need to find some help and and and so I did and through you know some tender mercies to me I found you Sam and and have you know gone through this this program and and feel that I've learned lots of things and have been armed with some great tools so sorry just an analogy that I've been thinking about lately. Yeah please yeah. The grass is greening over here and you know my lawns full of dandelions right now and I was just thinking you know like this problem is so much like a dandelion you know you can cut the dandelion with a lawnmower what is this kind of come back up and that I think that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years is I've just been cutting the grass, cutting those dandelions and it looks good right after you cut it but it doesn't take long and it comes back up because it's got those roots and and that's what I've learned from you is that there there's a root to to the problem that that I didn't realize was there I thought the problem was you know the flower and the leaves but but there's a root to it and it grows deep too and so that's that's one thing that I've learned and that's kind of where I'm at is is working at the root of the problem. Yeah I really appreciate Sharon I know for so many guys they can relate to that they're doing well and they think it's behind them and then how to know or something happens they get triggered they go back to it they feel horrible because they thought they were past it and then that cycle can be so defeating right and then you kind of talk about this place of you know thoughts of not being around anymore because it's so discouraging I think a lot of people can relate to that because they don't know what else to do especially something struck me when you said that when you said that you tried the very best that you could so it wasn't a lack of effort it wasn't that you didn't really care it wasn't that at all it was like you did everything that you knew how but when the root produced another round of dandelions it's like well there's literally nothing else I could do I couldn't try any harder than I did and yet we're still here I think people give up in those moments given that I'd love for you to maybe speak to somebody who might be in that phase right now where they're trying as hard as they can how do you understand like at the time what did you think the issue was back then and you've come such a long way in a different place right now what do you what did you think it was back then and then what do you actually understand it to be now yeah so yeah and if anybody that's in that situation I really feel for you and you know back then I thought the problem was was simply just you know I have it in an addiction to pornography itself and that really there was no contributing factors like I you know I had heard talk of triggers and I just didn't really understand that very well and so that was the problem I just thought I had to just just stop you know just like force myself to when I felt you know tempted or drawn to just battle that within myself and I just I really couldn't ever do that when that that real temptation would come it was just so powerful that I was too too weak to to say no even though really I wanted to you know and after you give into it you feel terrible and and so that that's that's what I thought and so I was just trying to will power my way through it I would you know try to you know delete apps and you you know, do those kind of things which I think are helpful, but it just wasn't the complete approach. You know, there were things that were missing. And so through your help, I realized that you know, there is a route to the problem. And like a lot of it is a negative self-talk, a belief about myself that's not not good. And which is true, you know, I've struggled with not feeling well about myself or thinking well about myself forever. You know, like, you know, going back as a kid, you know, I kind of struggled with making and keeping friends. And, you know, I struggled with reading and stuff, so I was self-conscious and I would talk down to myself. So I've done that since I was a child. And so it's like, it was something that was normal to me. I didn't even notice, honestly, that I was even really doing it. But I was. And so there was that. And then just like any, like, I don't want to say negative emotion, but just like any like, powerful emotion, you know, like, I would run from it, you know. So I, I saw, you know, pornography was a way to escape this problem, not just pornography, but like, you know, social media, YouTube, TV, like, I was just like anything I could use to escape. I was using it. And pornography was part of it, big part of it. And so I just didn't know how to manage those feelings. And I didn't realize that I didn't know how to manage those feelings, honestly. I didn't realize I was escaping from them. And so that was one thing. And then another thing that I realized too about myself is, is that I constantly am worried about other people and their thoughts, their potential thoughts of myself. That would, would worry about it constantly. And it would, it would haunt me really. And it would cause a lot of, you know, and discomfort. And that was another thing to run from them to escape. And so that really was that I found was the root cause. That's such good insight. Because I think a lot of people struggle with very similar things. Uncomfortable emotions, powerful emotions, negative emotions, they want to move away from them. And if pornography has been the vehicle strategy coping mechanism to help them not feel those overwhelming feelings, if that just gets wired in through lots of repetition over a long period of time, it just becomes unconscious. It's subconsciously. We just turned to that without really knowing there's so much stuff that we're trying to move away from. And I think it's such a good job being able to explore and understand so that then you can now deal with them differently. Because the thing is like life is tough. There's no shortage of challenges. There's going to be difficulties. There's going to be stress. So the goal isn't to just eliminate that stuff. That's not realistic. The goal is to just know how to navigate that differently. I'd love to have you maybe speak to what do you feel like has been helpful on your journey as you're navigating things differently? Like I said, those things will keep surfacing in terms of emotion and situations of stress and overwhelm. But how have you found ways to manage that that feel good for you? Yeah. Yeah. So I guess for like my beliefs towards myself, one thing that I've been doing, well, I've been doing a number of things. But you know, every day I have an alarm that reminds me to just offer myself some self-compassion. And so I've been sticking to that. And basically just, you know, not lying to myself, you know, but I'm telling myself to be kind to myself and allow myself to learn. And so that's another thing is that when I do make a mistake, you know, I'm not taking it personal. I'm not beating myself up over it. I'm telling myself in my head and I literally say this is it's okay because I'm learning. And for whatever reason, my brain's able to accept that and not turn it into a personal issue. And that's really free. I really like that. I remember very distinctly went our very first session when we did our deep dive session. That was a big part of it where you were just so hard on yourself at the time. And as such, most people, when they're hard on themselves, they feel either depressed or anxious, they feel disconnected, their wall is up. It's not because there's anything wrong with them. It's just how we treat ourselves has a huge impact on how we feel and our self-esteem, our self-confidence. I remember very distinctly, that was one piece. I was like, I know this is like going to be the biggest point of leverage that we have is helping break that belief or the identity around, if I make a mistake, then I'm bad. And it feels personal. And that take away that insight that you had, just what you shared with it. That's why I wanted to speak to this. It's like, I'm learning. And by you framing it in that way helped to separate it from you so that you could make all sorts of mistakes and be okay with the fact that you're not perfect and continue to learn and grow and refine and improve and develop new skills. That process was so, sometimes people say the word is life changing. Flippantly, oh, that meal was life changing. The movie is legit. But this thing that we're talking about right now legitimately changed my life. And I know that when I work with people who are struggling in the same way, I'm like, we got to get you plugged into a new way of looking at this. Because when you do everything changes, can you maybe speak a little bit more to, I think people get stuck there and they don't know how to do it. They don't even know what it means. And so that's a big part of the source of why they turn back to these old patterns. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I definitely felt those ways. And I guess to, you know, I'm religious. And so part of battling this negative belief about myself was, you know, I turned to God and I turned to prayer and meditation and scripture. And I really saw from a high level, you know, my worth. And I come to feel and to realize that, you know, my worth isn't connected to my actions. But that I have intran, intranasical worth that God loves me. And that I have purpose and that's been a good change for me. And I've been able to, it's been a huge weight that's come off of my shoulders because of that. Also, I thought I had earlier when you're talking is, you know, I've lived life, scared of making mistakes. And probably part of this is because I'm so hard on myself or had been so hard on my sub for making mistakes that I've lived a really risk adverse life. Right? Yeah. And, you know, like, you know, they say with, you know, high risk, high reward type of a thing. And, so I feel like I've kept myself from meeting some of my potential through education and work and certain things. I've taken the easy route. And I feel like here, I've learned and felt ways about myself that allows me to take a route that may result in mistake. But I'm, you know, I can overcome it. And so it feels, it feels great. I was going to say, can you, when you said that, there's a smile, right? Like I can overcome it. Can you speak to what it feels like for you having this new way of looking at yourself, way of looking at situations, knowing failure, setbacks, disappointments, like that's all a part of the path. But to not take it personally and to know that if I fail at achieving a goal, then I just take a step back, reevaluate, try it again. Take a step back. It's a feedback loop. So when you said, I can overcome it. There's a smile. What's it like for you as you have this new found confidence or clarity that I can make? I can try and I can do and setbacks are okay because I can deal with those. How is that for you? Having that? Yeah. It, I guess it gives me motivation to push myself and to, to do things like this where, you know, I share my experience with others in a vulnerable way, really, really. And it's, yeah, it's really led me to a desire to, to help others, to put myself out there and to help. And so I guess that's kind of where it's at. And it's, uh, I feel, it feels, it feels good. It feels like I'm working towards something instead of just hiding and keeping myself, um, you know, down, you know, I'm not so much wrapped in bubble wrap and hiding from things, but, you know, I'm able to get out and be out of my comfort zone and learn really. And that true, that one piece right there unlocks a future that is unachievable, un attainable when we live in this very kind of, like you said, this risk of worst. I don't want to fail because if I do, then you know, you know, something wrong with me, it unlocks a completely different future because now you can take risks and you can learn new things and grow and make progress and do things that you never otherwise would have because there is a different mentality around the whole process. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I wanted, I know I cut you off mid-sentence when you were describing the few things that you felt like were helpful. So that being one of them, it's really recognizing the separation between you and your actions, right? And the birth that's inherent, which a lot of people struggle with. And I've myself personally struggled with that in the past until I learned just what you're describing. So that was one big thing. Anything else that you felt like were needle movers for you in terms of you making progress and feeling better about you? Yeah. So, well, that, and then I think just being able to live with and I guess, I think, I guess, maybe not regulate, but like understand my emotions was really something that has been, has been big for me because it's, it plays into that negative self-talk is, you know, I have these negative emotions and, you know, I question why I feel this way or, you know, whatever, and so being able to understand like, like, I have these emotions and you share this analogy with me when we first met of the compass, right? And so our feelings are like a compass, right? And so when we have these emotions, it's just our compass, you know, trying to communicate with us that, hey, maybe you've deviated from the course and you need to make some action to get back to true North, right? And so that was such an eye-opener for me. I didn't even realize that I was hiding from these emotions that I didn't even know, you know, how to manage them or that they were pointing towards action, really. And so like, I'd have these strong emotions come up and they'd feel overwhelming and, you know, and I didn't know what to do with them, so I would hide. And so I would turn to, you know, my cell phone or iPad or TV or whatever, and I would run from them. And so just being able to learn that my emotions are pointing to something and I'm not perfect at, you know, understanding what they're pointing to. But I think just knowing that they're pointing to something I can work through them. And I think just that awareness has helped so much to work through those things so that I don't have to hide from it. That's something that's such an uncomfortable feeling that I have to try and numb it out, you know. Huge, that's huge. So that compass idea resonated. I think about just the thought that came to me when you were saying that was that if we don't know how to read a compass or if we have a compass, but it would put like a piece of tape over the compass, we can't see where it's pointing. It just, we spin. We're not making this, we're not feeling better about where we are, we're feeling stuck in where we are. But I really like what you're saying. These emotions are messages that help guide us back to true North. How do we find peace? How do we be, how do we resolve what's going on? What actions do we need to take? Because I think a lot of guys, when they learn about meditation or being aware of how they feel, they think, okay, I started to meditate and I then recognized that felt really bad. And then the meditation didn't work. I still felt bad. And I always say, okay, that's like that's step number one. That's really good that you're meditating because now you're peeling the tape off the compass as it were and you're looking at where it's pointing. You're seeing how you're feeling. You're noticing the thoughts, you're noticing the feelings in your body. It's then from there, you can take an action to help read a line, you recenter you because without the action, without resolving why you're feeling anxious, then you're right. It just, it does stay and then it feels like, well, meditation didn't work. That's not the thing that takes the feeling away. Not that we have to take feelings away, but that doesn't, that's not what brings us back to true North. So I don't know if you even have an example of this. If you don't, that's okay. I was just wondering because this is such a powerful concept. Do you feel like there's an instance where you felt like, oh, that was what I needed to do and it did help me? Yeah. So, I guess this kind of leads into a little bit of another problem, but related that I've had is, you know, I would have like an interaction with somebody, say at work and they say something and it bothers me and ruminate it or I used to remember me over it for, it could be weeks. It could bother me that much. And so something that, you know, well, maybe it's pointing towards an insecurity or something that I could actually improve on or something that I knew already and just wasn't putting into place and just knowing that and having like an action item tied to that would, I like it wouldn't bother me anymore. It would go away. And so I guess that's kind of one kind of emotion that would regularly bother me and just being aware of it, you know, knowing that it's pointing towards an action of some kind has helped me and then put it into action into play has helped so much for me to, you know, happy about other things. So even my wife, so we've talked about this and she's like, yeah, you would like talk about, you know, interactions for like days. And so, and I guess I just didn't realize like that that was a problem that maybe that was irregular and so I get it really has been a weight lifted and it's not something I have to worry about so much. Like I can work through those things. I don't have to take it personal and, you know, take it as evidence of my self worth or whatever, but like I can just work through it and I'm okay. How that's such a huge, I can't emphasize enough how big of a win that is to be in a spot where you feel like I can work through stuff. Stuff is going to get put on my plate, difficult situations, hard conversations. It could be anything, but it's like, oh, I know how to, I can deal with this. I can process this differently. How, what influence has that had on yourself confidence, yourself a steam with this sense of I can handle stuff now in a different way? It has a had an impact in that way? Yeah, I think it has, you know, there's just kind of back to work, I guess, but that's kind of a place where I have those instances, you know, those interactions. And so, you know, I can go to work with confidence and really not worry about those conflicts or whatever. I have a little bit of a sense of freedom and confidence at work that I can do my job and I can be good at my job. And, you know, these little instances aren't bothering me so much that, you know, that I'm neglecting work or self-conscious about my value in the work place. And so that's one example, I guess. Yeah, that's powerful. So there is two that you mentioned right there. So just summarizing this. Number one, being able to separate yourself from your actions and decisions, which then makes it so it feels okay to make mistakes. It feels okay to fall short on achieving a goal because you can just keep, it's more implementation. You get feedback, you can put it back in place, you can take more risks. This unlocks the door to a completely different future. So that was one. Number two, was managing your emotions, being able to process through them and having the confidence and the capacity to respond to them differently so that you can work through them instead of feeling overwhelmed by them and escaping them. So I really like those two things. Did you say there was a third one? Yeah, so the third one was, I would worry about people's perception of myself. And so it really was kind of a constant thought unless I was at home really. So like any time I was out in public or out and about, it influenced the way I dressed, what I said, what I didn't do. And so just anything really, I think when I first realized that this was a problem, I gave you an example. So I was at work one day and I was washing my truck and they had these wash bays. [BLANK_AUDIO] of cold and so I just closed the door behind me and so I was just myself in the wash bay and for whatever reason like the entire time I was washing my truck I was wondering what someone would thought of me if they came and opened this door and seen my knee in here washing the truck with the door closed. I have no idea why that was a problem but it bothered me and so when I realized like okay this is not right. I shouldn't have to worry about those things that shouldn't have to be a constant thought and so what you shared with me has been very helpful is to think of a place of comfort and to when I have those instances and those thoughts to put myself in that place, build that comfort and self-confidence and that will kind of combat those worries and maybe you can do that a little clearer more clearly but what I've been doing that and it's helped and slowly I haven't had those worries as much. That's great. Yeah I think that's such a powerful. When you're describing that I think everybody should have a comfort strategy. It's like how can we tap into an experience, a sense of comfort or any feeling that's empowering whether it's comfort or confidence or peace or excitement. If we have a way to get into that state it's a huge positive coping mechanism because we're all going to have moments of discomfort and worry and concern and fear and adequacy but if we in that moment think okay I can respond to this in a different way and you can implement a comfort type of strategy you can feel good about you, feel reassured and then okay I can keep moving and it's okay. Let me share with you an example just for people who are listening to one of my favorite like the most influential mentor in my entire career so she passed away like two days ago actually so like truly revolutionary. Her name is Sue Johnson and she developed a whole model of couples therapy that's been the bedrock of all of my work. All of the stuff that you're hearing in the podcast as it relates to like the relationship component is influenced by her work so tremendously powerful like yeah she's done so much and so I remember at a training one time she was talking about how she hates to fly and she kind of joked at she's like that's a problem because I get invited to speak everywhere and so her comfort strategy was as she sits on the airplane she's like holding on the seat rest you know arm shares beside her or the arm rest but she says that she thinks about her the love of her husband and imagines having a conversation with him in her mind where he says hey it's okay Susan you're going to be okay you're going to come home to me in a couple of days everything's going to be fine and that was her comfort strategy in those moments that she felt scared of flying so I just I hear you sharing your example of that it's like there's a way for you to calm down to feel re-centered that's in alignment with your values and that's a big part for so many guys of what helps them replace the old coping mechanism you can't just not do something you can't just have a vacuum like a void right so for you to say I'm not going to do this bad behavior and I'm not going to watch pornography I'm not going to do whatever escape behavior it is we got to have something else in place that can help us feel a level of comfort and reassurance so I really appreciate sharing that because that'll be a bit you know that's a big part of what helps people feel grounded just as they're working through the difficulties of life is having a way to recenter themselves yeah yeah and I guess for me to what I've been doing is I can think of myself at my parents house in the kitchen and you know a lot of times we'll get together and and you know I think I can goof off and be myself and so I feel like for me that's been like a place of comfort and so just thinking of of being there standing in the kitchen my mom that's house has has really been able had had that powerful you know feeling to help me to combat those feelings of insecurity and fear of judgment yeah it's huge really appreciate sharing that I know there's a three big tools if you had others I'd be happy to have you share if not there's a couple last questions that I'd for you yeah so I guess for me you know like I you know we've been talking about it is targeting the root of the problem but also you know kind of more surface level which has looked like a you know a more routine a better morning routine where I you know I exercise and and I pray and and reach scripture and and spend times doing that and I feel like that that's another element that's helped me not only to to feel worth you know and to feel that I have intrinsic value but just you know I just feel better and so that that's something that I've been doing another thing I did and I think this is kind of part of your program is is a dopamine fast you know who is it and a anl empty doctor anl empty she she talks about doing it a dopamine fast and and so I I listened to her book and got some great things from it and and so that's what I did and and so when I when I started doing that I realized that you know it's not just pornography and YouTube and TV that was hitting that dopamine button but it was also like podcasts and books like listening to books and like scrolling through the news and stuff like that I was using that as as a way to hit that dopamine button and to escape a little bit and so I just I just cut all of that out and I just you know I I had those cravings and then they went away and I was able to just kind of regulate myself and I feel like you know it was it was good for me because then I was able to kind of review how I was using media you know I was I was using it as an escape for entertainment but I come away knowing that like I didn't want to use it in that way you know if I wanted to have purpose why I was you know listening to a podcast or a book you know I wanted to learn right and so that's something that I've done kind of more surface is is to kind of cut back on that and and have purpose for you know why I'm you know using something that I know kind of pushes on that dopamine button and so that's one thing that I that I've been doing I love that I think having that awareness and then being able to take it take action to support that again it just reinforces you you've done you've come such a long way you've done such good work and being able to take these actionable things and apply them then you get the result right you get the benefit of having worked through this stuff and now it's just it's an ongoing process like I said life is tough and there's always going to be challenges and that's okay right when when you have these things in place these ways of responding to how you feel the way of seeing a situation as it's separate than you you're not so hard on yourself there are stresses that come up but you have a whole new way of responding and being which again just makes it like the confidence level the sense of feeling grounded in peace I don't know for me anyways as I've developed the same type of strategies I the stuff that I share with my clients I'm doing the same work and as I do it I just feel so grounded I can feel so good knowing when stuff comes up I can handle it and it's going to be okay and when I do feel overwhelmed I can reach out and get support I can talk to my wife sometimes I share this with the with the guys on the different calls sometimes something will come up for me and I just think to myself okay I can't wait till seven o'clock or eight o'clock rolls around and I can just talk to my you know I start to Jordan she's my wife can't wait to just go tell her about this I'm not even looking for anything necessarily but I know that by the act of sharing I just feel better so that's one strategy it's like yeah I'm gonna chat with her tonight and I'm gonna feel much much better about this speaking of the relationships has this had an influence in your relationship with your wife yeah yeah for sure so um you know it it was definitely painful for her when I you know um kind of would bring these things up you know it it it was painful she's always been supportive of me though and um but yeah earlier you know a few months ago you know there it was probably the lowest in our relationship and the rockiest for sure um but I think you know her seeing me do do work um on myself and change in certain ways being able to engage and not um try them out and be distant has helped I think one of well I guess a couple of things that have really benefited our marriage was number one, I realized that I needed to take responsibility and have open communication with her regularly. So that was something that, you know, and I didn't realize what I was doing, but I kind of gave, was trying to give her that responsibility, like if she wants to help me out, then I need her to check in with me. And, you know, that wasn't right. Like, I needed to take that responsibility for myself and regularly show her, you know, that, you know, I'm working on these things, or I'm struggling here, and show her that, you know, she's, she's part of, you know, the relationship and, and my struggle and my, my battle for overcoming it. And so that's been a huge help in our marriage, which is that open communication and initiated by me when related to this problem. So that's been a huge, very huge help. It's really powerful. A lot of guys will feel reluctant to do that. And as a result of that, their will has to spend in their relationship. It's really hard to create safety when you're not addressing the reason for the lack of it. So for you to have taken that responsibility and have these conversations, what influence did you notice that having on her? You know, I guess just some of that pain, you know, I feel like it has been able to heal. There's a little bit more, you know, there's a bit more trust there. And we're just in a really good, good spot. Another thing that has been life changing really. And I don't say that in a, you know, in a cliche way, but, is, and I learned this kind of early on in our program was that I needed to disclose, you know, everything that I had done with her. And just be honest and open about it. You know, I thought I just could kind of tell her kind of the highlights of what the problem was and then keep the rest to myself. But when I heard this from you and realized that I sat down with her and we had a conversation, a hard conversation, like a really hard conversation. This was very difficult to disclose in everything. But I did. And I was open with her about, even before we were married, I just kind of just let everything out. And it was so, so freeing. I didn't even realize that that was such a weight. But like, it has brought me so much peace. Just, just letting her in and telling her those things. And also, for me, I feel like it was an important part to make restitution for the problems that I made. And what I had done against her and it really has brought peace and has helped our marriage. You know what? I don't have those thoughts and memories from the past come up anymore. Like they're just not there. It's so freeing to not have that because, you know, I've dealt with it. And I guess this is kind of the meaning of closure, I guess, with those problems is, you know, they've just been dealt with. And so they're not a problem anymore. And so for me, on the relationship side, those two things have helped our marriage so much and have helped me as a husband to to fill that role as a husband and to be there for. And I just think that's exactly what a wife needs in these moments is to have somebody who can have conversations together who can be transparent, who can work through things with her. And so to take those steps, it really does change the direction of the whole relationship. How would you describe the difference between your relationship when you were struggling as opposed to today? Well, it's probably a nine day really. You know, just, you know, when I was struggling, I wasn't engaged, you know, and like I wasn't very helpful with, you know, kids and, and the house. So she was taking on a lot of responsibilities and, you know, going through this program and working on myself, you know, it's open my, my eyes a bit. And I'm not numbed out, right? So I can, I can see that there's, there's work that I need to do. And so being able to just step in and do my part because, you know, it's mine too. Like those responsibilities are mine too. They're not just hers. You know, has, has helped her a lot. It's, you know, it's less than that burden a little bit. And, and so it's, it's been, been good at it. It's, it's helped us a ton. And so, and I feel good about myself also that, that I'm contributing and that I'm, that I'm helping her out. And so, I guess it helps in multiple way. Sure. How would you describe the difference in how you feel towards each other? Yeah. So, more trust for sure. You know, I think, on both, both hands, you know, because I've, I've been open with her about things that I've probably never told anybody, you know, and we've been, we've been married for a while. And so like that, those first things that I've been holding for a long time. And, and so, yeah, there's, there's more trust. I know I can, I know I can open up to her. And, and we could work through, you know, that might cost some pain and stuff, but we've been able to work through it. And so that's been, been a great thing for our marriage where we've been able to kind of build that, that trust and comfort and, and, um, yeah, I think that's, that's a big one there. Yeah, I agree. I think, again, the fact that you've come such a long way and to have very clearly laid out some very specific things that have helped you, I think it's, it, my hope is that as people are listening to this, that I can do that too. It's knowing that other people have walked this path. There's tons of people who go down this who struggle, who come out on the other side. And so, free to share this, my hope is that people can feel inspired by this. I, it's, I think you've described everything in such a, a clear and, and inspiring. And it's like it builds this possibility. I can do this too. Is there anything that you would say to somebody who's just feeling stuck, who doesn't have a whole lot of hope, kind of like what you described in the past? What would you say to somebody who's having a hard time right now and is considering how to move forward from here? Yeah. So, I guess my main message is like don't, don't give up hope. There, there is hope like it, it really can be, can be beat. And so, like if you're struggling right now and you can't see away forward, and you've said this before, but there's just something you're missing in your approach, and you just got to figure that out and, and you'll, you'll get it, you'll overcome it. It's not something you have to die with. And that's something that I felt and I felt in the past is, you know, like, I'm probably going to die with this problem and it's going to follow me forever. But I don't feel that now. So, this is an example. A lot of times I would kind of get in a, a period of sobriety, but I'd be followed around with this fear of relapsing and it would just, you know, it'd be devastating and even just the fear would bleed to a relapse. And I don't have that now. You know, I feel like I've been equipped with tools and knowledge that, you know, I'm able to handle, you know, the stresses of life to where I don't, I don't need to numb out. I don't need to turn to it. And I feel like also like where, where I've had, you know, just habits, just like, where pornography has been associated with, you know, sitting down on the couch pulling my phone out type of a thing. I've been able to notice those things and kind of fix those things. So, I don't have that fear anymore and, you know, it's possible for for everybody, you know what? I started this program at the very lowest I've ever been in my life. I've never never never been at the point where I was or I was, you know, having these terrible thoughts of, of harming myself like I was. And but, you know, through your help, Sam, I've been able to, you know, learn that I was just missing some stuff and the way I was approaching it and that it can be overcome. Your brain can be rewired. You can relearn new habits. Like, you can You can manage stress, you can manage these things. and you can overcome it and you can change and be a new person and you can find freedom. And it's like, I don't know, the program is not like a magic pill, right? It's not like you take it and then you're good forever, right? But like there's still work to be involved. Like you still got to implement these things forever. But I think just knowing what the problem is, just being aware of it for me has been super helpful. And so I guess what I would like to say to those who are struggling is like, don't give up hope. Find somebody that can help you like Sam or another counselor. Like don't do it alone. Because I think that that's something like we feel like we have to do. Like we have to hide it. Like it's such a, you know, it is it. It's like kind of it's a disgusting problem and you know can be like hard to live with and deal with. But like open up to somebody that you trust, seek help and seek professional help. I think that has been such a life changer and game changer for me. So don't give up hope. Find someone that you can turn to for help. And I think those are the main things is it can be done. It really can. I you put it better than I could have. I think just to have that experience, I've gone through this to know that it's possible because you lived it and you'll continue to be making progress. And I'll tell that people too. I'll tell people. Because when I talk about like hey, this is possible and you can do this is not going to take you know 10 years to do it either you can do this in a relatively short amount of time. I hear people say like, Oh, I don't know. It sounds like magic and I'm very clear. There is no magic and that's actually a good thing because you can't predict or control magic. You just hope that lightning strikes and you're the lucky one. Oh, it worked for me. It's not that at all. It's there's very specific things that you can do. And just by following through on those, you get the result. It's like seeds don't grow by magic, right? They grow with sunlight, soil, water, time, right? They're specific ingredients. If you don't know what those are, you're going to think it's magic. But when the curtain gets pulled back like no, it's not magic at all. All you got to do is just these handful of things and then get help to implement those. You will absolutely get the result because it's predictable. So I'm glad you brought that up because it's not something that's like done to them. It's they learn the process can implement the process. And as they do that, they feel confidence by doing it themselves. There's a confidence that comes from you taking the action you seeing the results. People can feel excited about that. Maybe that I can have you to share that as the last thought like, did you notice any of that? Like you're the one taking steps. How does that feel as you're taking control and ownership over it? What influences that add for you? Yeah, it feels it feels good to well, number one, it feels good to have action items, right? To know where to point that that desire to change. And and and so just knowing. It feels great and then being able to like implement those things and see that hate. They work, you know, and it's not like and they're not like hard things, right? They're like, they're pretty simple. Which is great because it's doable. You know, it's not like this huge task to and really burden some to do. Like they're pretty simple tools to put into place that that that help and then just being able to have action items to work towards them. Yeah, it does build confidence and just seeing little wins, you know, kind of just kind of builds you up. So that's been great. I just the one you were describing all these things is how much clarity specificity, hope, like exactly what I think people need to hear because they imagine being, you know, how many months or years ago, it's just like no hope, no options did my best didn't work. This is it. But to hear like I was there, but now I'm here, you can just follow those same steps. It's huge. Yeah, and I never would have I would be here, right? And and I really was like I was I was like I was at the lowest I've ever felt in my entire life and like just so hopeless and, you know, this. This really has been a tender mercy in my life to find you in the way that I found you too was, you know, because I went to a counselor in Utah because I was just trying to find a counselor that maybe would understand my background a little bit. So it's trying to find an LDS counselor and and so I went to him and I don't know what it was just like an hour of just me talking and he didn't really. And then maybe this is normal, I don't know, but I didn't really get any feedback or action items or anything I could do, you know, and so this is like I didn't come back from the interaction feeling any better and so I was like I can't travel to Utah every week to do this. And so I just sure. And I just started to drive for you. Well, it's like five hours. Wow. Yeah. So I was just searching online and then I found I think it was is a doctor five. Yeah. Yes. I found him and messaged him and then he pointed me to you. And and when he gave me your your information for because I like podcasts. So I just like I plugged your name in and it came up. So I listened before you. I think before you even responded to my my email or text and and I was like this like it just it really did resonate. You know, it was like something that. You know, my subconscious knew that I was using it like this. And so just being conscious of it was such a huge. Huge blessing and benefits. So it really has been a tender mercy and I feel like that. And so it's it's really been great.