Student to Corporate Finance Analyst: Networking & Career Advice That Works

Hello and welcome back to the market maker podcast and a real pleasure to have a guest on with us. Liam Edward Proctor who's going to be talking us through a little bit how he found his way into finance and really practical tips for students who are going through that job search and what role to pick and networking and early positioning and all of these types of things. So Liam, perhaps we could start from the beginning and you could walk us through your first kind of initial steps and then how you came to find finance to what you're doing today as a corporate finance analyst. Yeah, I mean my background is not traditional whatsoever. I know sort of family and financial whatsoever didn't go to a private school but it was still a decent school and I actually, I don't know if people actually know this but I went to different uni for one year. I didn't actually do finance. That's not quite my LinkedIn. I went to UCFB for a year, did business for business and marketing but I sort of I left because two reasons was I've realized that was more the hobby and second it was quite hard to do work when we were like 16 from the league and yet to do like an assignment on football so it wasn't necessarily that I've realized that it was not going to work and for our COVID and stuff I had been more interested in finance so it sort of went there so I swapped over. I think for me it was always there's always been sort of talk of money in the house but sort of the investment side was more my own way of doing it and I had so much free time during COVID. I just learnt quite a lot on my own and so just filling in the gaps there then so most people have this preconceived idea that you need you know you need internships and spring weeks and all the rest of it but you know there you are you're sat now in a role pretty quick snap after graduating so how did you feel that gap all that perception that you need all of that stuff in order to land a role? Yeah I mean it was a good one because I did a placement the same thing about now but it was completely different team. I did within the sort of client tax team quite a really interesting but then I could time in they sort of needed some numbers in the corporate finance team at the time juniors did a succumbent on the placement and when I was thinking of going back I was like I'd want to go back into the CF team and it was more and this gets on to bit the network in bit pushed in push into the door in a sense I sort of took it by myself because I liked the team I liked the work and I sort of had to push it with myself but that was the network and ultimately trying to get into a different position within the same firm I thought I did it yeah. For someone who doesn't know then like practically speaking what is it that you're doing now then and what sort of skills do you need to do what you're doing? So what we do now is finance due diligence on small to bit market transactions in the UK I wish I could tell you an exact set to that we do but we do such a variety that's what we're healthcare professional services so for example private equity firm will come to us and say we buy an XYZ you do the financial services for us and then we will go to the seller and we will work with the seller get the information doing that assistant there's some like back and forth like we miss in this missing that what does this mean here? That's essentially what we do now I've learned it a bit the hard way actually sometimes but communication I would say being up more clearer it's all well and good you're looking for the numbers but they might they're really sometimes out of a clue what you're referring to because their management teams are coming quite small of course the excel I would say is a big one I would say writing writing's more of a senior when a girl above a certain level of seniority which is obviously important but I would say the main two would be sort of the excel clear communication known how to communicate to the point because I feel an academics you sort of have to explain yourself a lot more whereas in at least my role you sort of have to get to the point very quickly which I think is it is a bit of wake up call but I would say the main sort of two three are yeah yeah I think it's probably one of the biggest reality checks that you go from the world of academia where you're you're used to explaining things at full depth and referencing and all the rest of it and that definitely holds true if you're doing some roles in finance like maybe if you're an economist or something like that yeah but I think for a large majority of roles it's about how do you take a lot and make it super concise to in that way so yeah I totally understand but so so getting on to some of these the questions that I had for you because one of the things here was about this debate that always exists which is the what you know versus the who you know and I know you've told me before the actually think that it's you know there's there's there's a little bit of both in fact and so I just wanted to get what you meant by that so the best way to start with it is she would say it both bandages over time is that as there's like an initial summary so of course at certain points your life who you know will put in mat and war but we even get to that point in the first place you've got to know the stuff and some people may get in not knowing much just off of connection which can happen short but at a long term basis it's not really going to last because you don't know yourself the way you would actually start with it is you'd have to go before you know because someone wants to coffee chat with someone they're pretty very busy and if you come to them and do you have a chat with them you don't really know anything then it's a bit like it might be a bit of a waste then in a sense so I would say you have to really start with the what you know and really get a few areas and the way I did it was if you don't know what role or what role was just think of fun take in finance you liked some mind would sort of come to another system that gives you a few different areas and it was a test and research and doing a few one of those is amplified podcasts but doing a few of the simulations did help I'm not just saying that as well but that's what I would say you have to start with what you know and really deep down if you can't find what role fun take within that you like so you might like debt and that gives you a few options of private credit or debt capital market it's an easier way of doing it other than our definitely we're in a vessel bank because this is quite a variety of role that's what I would you have to start of what before you go with who in my view you mentioned there about if you're going to meet someone for a coffee yeah what would be your your kind of preparation for that so if you to talk me through in detail because a lot of students kind of get told that they should network and they should grab a coffee for you or in person but yeah in order to maximize that just a bit further to explore them so how what so you've kind of got into check then your role so yeah and a bit of research about that what about yeah what what research do you do about the person you meet it okay so the best way to do is and then analogy so say for example this was two years ago looking for roles in the role I'm in now with sort of M&A FDD you would as a sort of a smaller university you would maybe look at the smaller firms and go that way and as you can finally some firms I think they're quite the easy to find now if not I'd like to be sent it to people and I would probably to have a little LinkedIn search really and have a fun two to three Macs I think if you go over two or three Macs when people from the firm within the same team then I think it's a bit too much because I know there's been cases before where people have messaged a few people different firms and they're like oh the same God mess you does oh so it doesn't really look great if you mess you load to people that'd be my first and you have to find something in common it's not always possible and if you don't then it is what it is you have to find something or a little thing that I have tried before when it has worked is a lot of these guys and certain roles ever gone a podcast at some point or having an appearance on TV or write a blog and that's always a way I have found because this is part of what you know as well if you find people will be in the industry and want you start looking that actually you'll look at and they agree with a lot of their views and you'll follow them a lot more so say for example they go on Bloomberg you got their LinkedIn and it's not a huge LinkedIn it's just a standard one and it's not like 200,000 followers it's not like a huge internet personality they're likely heard if they've gone on they're not a huge personality and they're within the role you like and there is something in common there the more feasibility you have they've actually getting there with it and I would always do in person chats I think virtual can work but I've always said you can't substitute an in-person chat in my view but that's the build-in-block so I would go yeah I don't know with the organ Stanley podcast there's the thoughts it's called thoughts on the markets if I if I remember correct correctly but they have an episode daily in the episodes a super quick snap and they kind of like the quick sound bites of the theme of the day with whomever the relevant personal desk is that's topical and I always think that that's a really good practical way of connecting what you just described because it's frequent content yeah and they're having to find people who have a niche expertise in the right different areas and so therefore there's such great ways to get in's because often like you said often you'll get the like the chief investment strategist talking but everyone knows who that is and I ET talks regularly that's his job yeah then it's when you get like the associate or the VP of I don't know autos within a subcategory of equities or something talking about the new or is it J.C. who I saw car sales were up the most that they've ever been in March or something like the best selling car in England or something like that it's like well so if there's a little snippet on that well that analyst covering that stock if you can speak to them about what they're saying I think you'll have someone better value add I would say to that it's always the best way I've told my deconnet to be actually saying about it is the best way once you have a few connections is touching network through them because it avoids that cold. I mean, it's not an issue doing the cold misty-melting. You're gonna have to do it at some point, but if you can do it through other people, it avoids that cold intro. And you put it on more successfully than the one. That's one thing I'd always say. - Couldn't agree more, 'cause I don't know. So many people go, right, I'm gonna have an interaction, I'm gonna network, and I'm gonna get something out of that person. And that's it, like information, for example. But actually what it might be is that if someone actually likes you and then they're connected, it might be well your top of mind. - Yeah. - For them to make a referral almost, oh yeah, I know about Liam's situation. I know what Liam's really into and what he's skilled at. Let me introduce you to that. And it can also be then almost they advocate for you. And it's more passive as well as you doing the proactive stuff that makes sense. - So one thing I didn't mention there was actually using your lectures, especially if study finance is one thing I did actually, 'cause a lot will be ex-professionals, ex-recorded, it's a bit in the field for years. And they're gonna know people. So even if they're not in the field that you particularly like, so every time call you wanna go into a sort of equity research, you know, I don't know, a corporate finance module. And there might not be linked, but they might know people in the industry. And I think some people don't use, but I definitely used it university. There's always one little tip that people never really mentioned, is your lectures? - Go on then, give me some advice. How do I choose my lecture or a relationship? So I get them on-site. What would be your tactics back in the day? - I think the best way to do it is to you have a lecturer, I'll use, I won't use their name, but I'll use an analogy. I worked in sort of private equity and done in the past and stuff like that. And I would always be interested in these modules. I'd always chat to him quite a lot. My grades were good in that module, but I always seemed quite open to learning or asking questions or I'd always sit in the old article about stuff, even now I still check to him a day, actually. So I think just generally speaking to quite a bit, being engaged in their class, and then they know that and you go to them and say, "I don't know if you know anyone "with an x-row or x-industry, "or what do you think of this?" And it goes from there really, but I'd think you have to, there's a bit more effort than the normal student would do. But if you like the class, if you like the course, you like the lecture, then it's more the natural way of doing it as well. That's why I did it. - Yeah, it's interesting, is it? Like think about what drives a lecturer. It's not like a commercial world person where they want to sell you something, they need to make revenue out of you. They just want, it's almost like they want to intellectually coach you and mentor you and prove you. So you have greater success, is there a way of winning in that way? - Basically, yeah. - I guess, yeah, if you say, if you are very curious and motivated to want to learn about their material, all the better, I'm sure that would be more powerful. - Can I just ask though, I remember seeing you throughout the years on LinkedIn, things like that. You were always quite active. It seemed on LinkedIn, but also you didn't go to a non-target uni and you were still managed though to get into quite a few different events of things like that. So can you speak about that for a moment? Like, using the LinkedIn platform and then be trying to then, I guess, not having pasta syndrome that because you go to a non-target, you don't deserve to be there, but then also, hadn't get into the events. - I think the first one on the events, I think the first event I ever went to with those sort of networking ones, it was someone else told me about it, and I swin as a guest and sometimes it's the first way in. To start with the events, a lot of it is just following the relevant societies. Like, it takes a bit of going through LinkedIn, finding the main ones, but the main ones are LSE, Kings, UCL. I remember I went to LSE one in my second year, which was quite good and I still checked the guy now actually. I think first, it's a bit of hard work finding the societies, because even though they sort of do the internal events and they keep themselves, there is many times when they'll say, "Oh, we're open to external," and you have to apply for it, which is a story which will come to an end of a while. But that's the way I would always do a bit of hard work find the external stuff in terms of events, but then in terms of non-target perspective, you're always going to have a bit of imposter syndrome. To counteract that is the what you know. If I always have sort of felt in life, if you know your stuff, be confident, you're not going to know everything, of course. If you know enough, you go into a room and you can say, "I go to this unit," I would actually say, people from non-target universities who get the top grades, whenever I've talked to them, they've always seen more switched on than the average person from doing economics at LSE. I'm not saying the economics person at LSE isn't a smart person because they really are. It's in terms of commercial awareness. I've always felt the people who are top at a non-target, a better commercial than the guys at the average at economics at LSE. That's how I've always had my experiences. It's a bit of a stupidity. I guess they just got a little harder for it. Yeah, that's it. That's it. So how would you go about obtaining commercial awareness then? One way I did it very early on was I found the couple of sort of forums and stuff. I think Twitter's very good. I think now Twitter, you have to fine tune it a bit because there was a lot of mess on there. But Twitter's a very good place if you know how to follow and who to look for and that takes some work. That's the first thing I did. I followed people within markets because Twitter's a place where you get hedge fund managers that will just tweet their opinion. You don't get anywhere else. It can't underrate it. It's a very area. So I would go into forums there, find people from there, join communities from there and I'll have them to go in for a chat in my final year actually. It was a sort of a trading community. I'm not necessarily a trader. It was any more about markets from that perspective. And then from then on, it sort of turned into our he followed him. I followed them. I didn't meet you then and it all went from there really and the advice I got from them was quite good. I always think, and underrate one is Twitter and using these forums. The smaller ones in a sense and meet people through there. And say, no, how do you know something? So I'm letting through this or, could you do, again, can you introduce me to X through the forum? I think that's one way I always did it commercially. And you just have to do quite a bit. There is no I, but there's no, like, this way to say it, there's no shortcut to it. So the forums, people through there, I'd also say that the more gastinial podcast is a very good one. That is a very, the Goldman Sachs one is very good. But then the smaller ones, you tend to find the smaller podcast if you have a little search through Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. They're more honest, learn a lot more very quickly. And there's no substitute for that, I think. And then so tell me about some of the, you just mentioned in there, like, and network effect. So who are some of the big names that you've managed to cross paths with over the time? Because I know there's been a one or two. Oh, I think the only name I've all met, I won't, the only name I'm gonna mention is this one 'cause the rest of them also, X person. But the biggest person was Buddy Howard Marx. This was a funny one. So back in, when was this? God, you know, you're an arthrogous quick. In November 24, LSE, I can't remember what society was. One of the big ones did a chat with Howard Marx on a virtual team's goal like this. And in three days before they opened it to external, I limited amount, yet to apply. And I thought, well, there's no harm in it. I might not even get in. And then the evening before I forgot about it completely, even before, oh, you'll be on a, called 5 PM, 12 PM. I was like, oh, bloody okay. Why not? And everyone was like, if you wanna ask a question, put your hand up. And there was a question, I did it anyway, but I'm not gonna get to it. And I was second to last. I was so tight getting in. I'll leave you your question. And I was like, I couldn't believe it. I was like, okay. And I basically shot long story short. I asked him the question, what should, when would interest rates go near 0% again? His short answer to that, that they shouldn't go near 0% unless we have a crisis or a near crisis again. Was that okay? And then fast forward, June 25, Smith had dissertation four five days before. I have a few drinks in London. The first of the pub, is about one or two PM in the afternoon. And then I wasn't working then by the way, just careful I wasn't, I was off. And then, I, yeah, walked past as a reframing for a short nearby. Look to my left, look to my right. And Howard Marks is wife is sitting at the table. I don't interrupt people when they're eating dinner. That's always been minding my thing. So I didn't do anything. Told a couple of mates that will come in, walk this way and tell me who you see at the table. They saw him and we was up, okay. We went all right. But we was outside so the pub was sort of here and then you could see the restaurant there. I don't know if you can see it here. It was only down the road you could see him coming out. And we said, if he comes our way, we will talk to him. There's no, if he doesn't, we'll just, these were his, we'll leave it. And he walked out, started walking away half an hour, four minutes later. And I said, I'll do the reach out because I spoke to him before. And I sort of, he got, he got nearer. And I sort of reached out with Howard. And I said, I was on a cordial event by, and you asked me, I asked you this. And he said, what was my response? And I said the response to him. You went, that's correct. And I think because I remembered what he said, had the what you know, had a bit of gut as well to reach out to, to sort of a billionaire walking down the road of his wife. He gave us five minutes of his time. We've got photos, group photos. And then a good advice he gave, one of my friends was, someone said, what would be your sort of advice that many people don't say? And long story short, he said, to find your niche or find your area. Because I think to people get caught up in, are this is flashy, that is flashy. Just find sort of what you're good at, what you're interested in and just push on that rather than just going for what's got the flashing lights in a sense. But that was a funny one. I don't even submit this station 34 days before. So I think I was still a bit tired to want to see you. But yeah, that was a bit of a wild moment, I think. Yeah, that's so funny. Like what he said, that bit of advice. Because I remember on the podcast years ago, I interviewed the, he was the first person to say, global head of research used to be a Deutsche Bank and he was, he was like the right hand man of the CEO back in the early north and his, so he was super experienced guy, super lovely. And he said pretty much the same thing. He was like basically identify what you good at and then double down on those and then just try to manage the stuff to not greater. Because I think when you're young, I don't know about you, but I was always a mindset of whatever you could tell me about my weaknesses. And I'll work with my weaknesses, which I want to be a really rounded individual. And then here we are, two super senior successful people who've gone just right. Yeah, they're just like just focus exactly on what you good at and double down on that. It's interesting that, yeah, that's a recurring theme it would seem. Yeah. So because he's quite niche as well, isn't he, Howard Marx? What is the stress there? Yeah, in a really niche area and he just found what he's good at because I think he even says in interview stocks aren't my like 40. He's on me with that and I think a lot of these honesty as well. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's the appeal. That's right. Well, follow. Well, follow. All right. One of the things I was going to ask you about was handling rejection and this idea of playing the long game because I do get a sense of probably the temperature at the moment for the grad market is not great in the sense of where people's mental states are. Fun. Well, lots of different reasons from the AI, boom to massive application volumes to a lack of jobs and everything. Yeah. However, I just wanted to get your sense of about dealing with rejection because I'm sure that you've had plenty as most people have. But then also, how can you turn that into a positive, be more systematic and in plan for the longer game rather than trying to have this landing, this tier one sort of job straight off the bat? I think the best way I sort of, I think at the time the second year, I didn't think of this because I was just in the mix of an application cycle. But now you sort of have to realize that this gets into the theme of sort of quality as well because many people, I mean, I've been getting it in the past as well where you submit 100 and 150 applications and you hope one pays off, which it can work, but it's no disputing it can work. But I always, I don't know if it's just the maths in me. I always think of you, why the probability is in your favour. So if you spend more time on an application rather than spending one good one rather than six average, your probability is going more in your favour. Is it guaranteed? No. But it's more waiting your favour. In terms of rejection in general, the best way I would probably, in terms of, we do applications first and then the sort of network inside second, the applications I do have to realise that a lot of it's not personal. I think people get too frowned upon stuff. So you get really late stage as I have many of you just that miss out. You're good enough for the role. Like I think that's what people forget. Like you've passed all their checks, you've passed more to interviews now. So you just for a last hurdle and sometimes it's even you, just someone on the day is just blew out the water and that can happen. I've just, I've seen it. I've seen non targets getting into get a job where I've been at and he's been someone of melacy. I've seen it so many times. So I think you just have to realise it really isn't personal and when you get late stage, you are good enough for the role. So if you get to a late stage, you just miss out. You are already good enough. It's just a sense of time and a lot of it is time and unfortunately, but it is just a lot of perseverance really. But sometimes the best thing is to literally just shut off the laptop. And at the time I've done a bit too much and been on it 9, 10, 11, even 2 a.m. that's to admit. Doing some stuff and I'm like, do you know what's the path of laptop off? Clearly not working. Show it off. A bit in terms of the network and to the projection people airing you will not open your messages. It's going to happen. I think the best way I would look at it is if they don't answer you, they never open your message, they don't know who you are and it's quite a nice free feeling. If they open your message, don't reply. Maybe try one more time, they don't reply again, leave it. They'll forget about you in a few months and you can go about your life like nothing. It's quite a free feeling and I think people should have that sort of feeling with that vacation as well. They're not going to remember your application. They're not going to remember you. It's a bit of a free feeling that you just, oh, did it work? Go ahead, go on. Pull yourself back, go forward again. But you have to think of it as a free feeling where I didn't work and now if I get a rejection for someone who should be back or when I was planning for stuff second year and stuff like that, I know just sort of laugh or go, go on, go on, next one. I think you have to get to that stage and I think it's quite a good learning curve quite early on. But unfortunately I do think our generation is facing as much rejection than maybe previous. I would say we've definitely jobs but I would say if you learn a lot of rejection early, you'll pretty go quite far. That's what it might be of it. Yeah, I guess there's, how do you become, how do you build tolerance for anything? I guess you've got to go through it in order to do it. I think you're right. You've got to learn from your process and think about quality and quantity balance because I know that I have encountered a few students where they've said to me, I've done X amount and then I've looked at the first step, the CV and you're like, well, that's fundamentally off. So, all of that work has been, I'm sorry to tell you for nothing. So I guess the third thing is to get that sound as you checked by, I don't know, like you said earlier, your professor, the people at these investment clubs who maybe have already got an internship, who've got some experience about what works. So you do all that two diligence first and then you put the effort in, get all those like pillars, right, then you start going outbound. On that note then, if you were to go back now to your old uni then and speak to some of these first years, for example, second years, now that you've been working for a bit, what would you go back now and tell them that would you think offer the most advice or what's the most common question you get in that sort of setting because that would probably resonate with the widest amount of audience. I do the second one first, so I get actually get a few messages now, that stuff and it's weird and on the other side of it. So the common question I get is actually the one you actually wanted to ask me, how do you do it with a non-target? I get it, she got the exact same question to me two weeks ago. This can apply to non-target or target. I think if you're at target, you might have a bit of an easy job going through the initial screening, but with a non-target, it would purely just be, yeah, if they do a lot more. So I was the president of society, wrote stuff and then I went to these events, I had a bit of a more of a presence, I did courses and I think when you're non-target, you have to get the first. I don't know. You can get the over two one, I believe, but if you go to a small university to sort of circumvent that bit, you have to go for the high grades or even up high two one. The first part in terms of what I would do differently, I would say, if I was second year, probably more cold emailing call mischief because I know there's people now who are at university now going to graduate roles and instead of literally applying to roles, some guy that I speak to, he literally goes around smaller firms, having their investment memos, to small private equity firms, more real estate firms, smaller, he's working VC and as far as I know, he said a few meetings and nothing to materialize just yet, but he's getting more in the door that way going to these smaller firms, cold emailing call mischief with actual investment memos and saying, "What's your opinion on this?" "Would you think of investing in this or have you given me advice on how to change this memo?" And I think that's one thing I maybe would have, if I'd go back two, three years ago, I probably would have done the same. I did it a tiny bit, but maybe not as much as I could have. And you're, it kind of, that doesn't be a investment memo, as it could be someone going to market, who wants to go to working markets, could be running a piece of markets or a stock equity research, reaching out to a smaller firm that do equity research or a small run list. And then what do you think of this? And that's a much better way in the door sometimes I would think. That's one thing I do differently, much more cold emailing call mischief. You mentioned LinkedIn, there's part of those platforms. So how did you use LinkedIn the past then when you were a student that you saw added to my value? First, I would make sure the profile is really professional. I think it's the, if you get, I always want to get a message from someone, the first thing you do is go on their profile. And people say they don't do that, but everyone does that, like, I just got to be honest. And the first thing thinks of someone is does the profile look good? Profile looks clean. The first thing thinks right there. And the second one is it's a lot of evidence, I think. What helped me, for example, was one of these society events. I had one or two on there. So when I would go out and reach out to someone, say, would you come in for this talk? Even if they didn't agree to come in, I still met a few of the coffees that sit these senior firms because they're seeing what I was doing and it was evidence of it. So I always think you have to build up and this could be different. This could be, if you're asking someone to market for a chat or something, make on your profile, you've been writing stuff about markets, you could, you're, you're a professional, you've been quite active. I think it saw multitude of things and it's just like a, it's like a spiral effect in a sense, the more you do, the more it, the more happens in a sense. But it was always that sort of first step, which is definitely the hardest I felt, but that's what would be more evidence. Yeah, look professional. You mentioned about the coffees as just going back to that point over a touch note a few times, but we haven't spoke about what happens after the coffee. Now, you've talked about the free coffee, like there's another prep, you look and link in, your investigative work, your plan, you get there early, you get get their order in, you do all that good stuff, and then you have a good conversation. Yeah. What happens after the good conversation in your mind? Just pick on the order thing, I would say, if you've got someone out always order the coffee or the drink, if you're going for alcoholic or non-acolic, always order the drink, get it, try get it on time. But in terms of after, I would always say, you mentioned them back that day. It doesn't have to be 10 minutes after. Some people do it really quickly, it's up to you as an individual, but I would measure it back that day. Leave it email, LinkedIn or WhatsApp, whatever, communication you've been doing with them on within that day and just say, thanks for taking the time out. Make sure you may be wondering this book about, or if they've asked you, "Oh, could you think about this for me?" Or, "Could you come back to me and maybe speak about this at another time?" And you mention that in the conversation. You don't necessarily have to sit there and say, "Can I see you get into it?" You don't have to say that because a lot of the time it won't happen like that. They might think you've been a bit too much. Sometimes you follow up on the day, doesn't either you mention what you've spoken about, anything you need to follow up on. Then after that, they'll come back to you, maybe not come back to you. Lay a bit low. Then, when you feel the time's right, reach out maybe with an article and say, "Oh, what do you think about this?" Or, "I'm free around this time, is you're at front of a chat a month and a half of the time?" Or, if, for example, you've asked for someone to recommend you to say, "To get me updated on that, but you have to do it within the day." Doesn't have to be 10 minutes because I people would do it 10 minutes often. Well, I've been enough in this bit too much, but it's up to individual minds of ways on the day that I always will come back. You follow it through from there. Some will work, some won't, some won't. But that's the nature of this stuff, really. But if you do it, it won't have quality enough time. At some point, it'll pay off and might not short term, but I think it'll be surprised if you do this over a long amount of time how much will pay off and how you're contact list on what's at the evolves because mine's somehow quite big now. It's funny. It's like, what you've explained seems so obvious, but there was a guy called John Norman who is the former head of research at JP from 25 odd years. Now he worked for a straight-ass wiper, like a big pension funding venture. He said that he used to hook up students. They would meet up with him and then he would invest some time, give him some advice, having a coffee. And then he'd never hear from him ever again. He always used to be gobsmacked by how, you know, because he wants to help. But then there's this kind of unwritten rules about etiquette and how it's supposed to operate. So I just encourage everyone not to take these things for granted. And to your point, I think, after on the day that on our message should just be largely just to thank you. I wouldn't ask for the second ask that quickly because then it's too keen. So, but yeah, hopefully, you know, it all makes sense. Any final things you want to share to the community? I think it wouldn't be an episode if it wasn't a network in folks' episode. Focus episode if I didn't say I'm currently outside London, but if anyone wants to have a coffee or a chat about my Royal War, this podcast, you can always send me a message. And if I don't reply instantly, just mess it again. Yeah. Thanks for having me on your. I'd like to enjoy it.