Speaker 1So welcome to the next CMO marketing podcast, CMO fractional marketing podcast. My name is Simon Dell. I am the CEO of CMO. If this is your first time listening in, and you don't know how to spell CMO is C E M O H website CMO.com. You can find out everything you need to know about us there. And if you want to connect with us, you can find us on our website, CMO.com. If you want to connect with me, you can either do that through the website, or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm not very complicated to find. There are a few other Simon Dells out there, but it should be fairly obvious which one is me. Now I'm doing this with barely any sleep today because as an idiot, I got up at two o'clock this morning to watch England win their World Cup match, which will have been no interest to our guests whatsoever. Who probably would have got up at two o'clock to watch England lose. So welcome to the show, Kirstie Dagnall. How are you?
Speaker 2I'm very well, thanks, Simon. And I do support England when it comes to football because Wales never get in.
Speaker 1Well, yeah, which is a shame because you have one of the best, one of the, I think one of the best players who, you know, as in Gareth Bale, having played for many, many years, but who doesn't play now. Anyway, enough of the, enough of the football talk. Kirstie, give us a little bit of an overview about who you are, what you do, your experience. I often say to people, explain it like it's a, one of those sort of two, three minute movie trailers, you know, and hopefully there's some explosions and some car chases in it as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, a few explosions over the time, but we won't go into those. So I'm Kirstie, Kirstie Dagnall. I'm the founder of Beyond the Brief. We're a challenger agency. So we provide fractional CMO services for myself, very strategy led. And then we use a team of freelancers and smaller agencies to develop. So what we do is offer an entry point for those businesses who can't quite afford big agency budgets, but they want that big agency quality. I've been, obviously I'm not from Australia, but I've been living in Australia for the last 15 years. My background, I've been head of global marketing for a tech business. I've worked agency side, I've worked in finance and all across strategy, marketing and content, which is one of my favorite things to do.
Speaker 1Okay, that's good. And whereabouts are you based now?
Speaker 2I'm based in Sydney now.
Speaker 1Okay, cool. Whereabouts in Sydney?
Speaker 2In North Sydney.
Speaker 1Okay, lovely. Okay, so when we sat down, we were going to talk about. The subject matter for today was this idea about building before you grow, which sounds like a very funky title. But so just for everyone's benefit, tell us what that means to you. What do you see the core challenge behind that statement?
Speaker 2Yeah, so there's a few scenarios, right? A lot of businesses who either haven't done marketing before, or they've done bits and pieces. But they just haven't found it work for them. Usually, it's because there's nothing being put in place beforehand, a strategy to lead everything else. So often, I see briefs come in, and they say, oh, we want digital ads, for example, or we want to do LinkedIn. And my first question is, why? Why do you want to do that? And a lot of people jump into the execution of marketing before they even think of that why. And that's where things fall down. They end up spending so much money on something that doesn't work. A lot of people get burned by agencies. And I'm not saying it's the agency's issue. I mean, in Australia, it's a very executional industry. I think the issue is the thinking isn't being done before the doing. And without that, you're kind of just spraying and praying and hoping for the best. What I've found is if someone does say, we want to be on LinkedIn. Usually, because, say, they're in the B2B space, they think, oh, we must be on LinkedIn. Or, like, if they're in the B2C industry, oh, we need to be on Instagram. But have you actually asked, are your audience there? Do they care about what you say? What are you going to say to that audience? It's that thinking that should be done beforehand that doesn't. And that's why a lot of businesses fail. So that's why it's really important to build. So build your strategy. Build what you're saying. Build who you're talking to before you even think about growing and going out to market.
Speaker 1You must have heard the claim from many businesses that, you know, marketing doesn't work. Or we've spent lots of money on agencies and it didn't work. That must be a sentence that resonates and repeats over and over for people you speak to, I guess.
Speaker 2Yeah. It really is. And agencies do get a bad rap. I mean, I'm not saying all agencies are great or all agencies are bad. Like, there are some excellent ones out there and there are some dodgy ones out there. But I think the issue is, again, the thinking hasn't been done. And that's why it's not working.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I mean, I tend to find that agencies, this is one of the points of difference from us as a business, is that, you know, we approach everything with an agnostic. It's not, you know, we're not selling a particular solution. And I think agencies, sometimes if you're a creative agency, you're approached by a company who wants something creative. Yeah. And you're not diagnosing the actual problem. It's like somebody coming in. I often use the analogy like a mechanic coming in and, you know, and you saying, you know, I think there's something wrong with my car. I think it's the radiator. Can you replace my radiator? And the mechanic might sit there and go, well, it's not the radiator, it's your exhaust. And the client going, no, no, it's the radiator I want you to replace. I think the problem is the radiator. And then, you know, the mechanic replaces the radiator. And then, you know, a week later, they're back and saying, well, it's the car still not working. So it's that sort of, you know, I think the danger, and I call this. It's about clients all the time. It's the danger of self-diagnosis. For some unknown reason, marketing seems to be something that businesses are absolutely happy to self-diagnose.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah. I think it's one of the only industries where everyone thinks they're a marketer. Everyone just thinks.
Speaker 1You don't self-diagnose your car. You don't self-diagnose your own car. Yeah. But for some reason, people were like, yeah, we're going to self-diagnose the problem with our marketing here.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think as well, especially for those businesses wanting to grow, they want quick wins, right? They want leads. They want things done straight away. And growth creates pressure. That pressure creates urgency. And so the whole thinking behind it gets left behind because everyone's in a mad rush to just get their name out there. And they end up almost damaging their brand in the meantime.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned, we talked about the idea of there being sort of three pillars. Mm-hmm. Behind what you do or what you're suggesting. And those are audience, product, and industry. Why those three? Because there's been many people over the years who've talked about the core parts of marketing. But why do you think those three are so important?
Speaker 2Oh, yeah. There are so many different marketing ways to go about it. The four Ps, the seven Ps. Yeah. I think for me, after doing this for such a long time, it makes sense in a way that it gives you an entire perspective of the business. So if we start with audience, we want to know, first off, who are we speaking to? Because that's going to determine what we write about, what our message is, where we actually place our marketing, for example. So if, say, we're writing for a B2B audience in tech, where are they going to be? And the way I look at questions when it comes to audience, is not just how old are they, where do they live, but go a bit deeper into what do they care about, what keeps them up at night, what goals do they have for the next five years. The way I do that before any project starts is get stakeholder interviews. You need to be speaking up front with the people who are dealing directly with your customers because they have the knowledge about the customers that you will never get from any online research. Okay. You can get customer interviews as well, speak to your accounting, hear from them about what's concerning your customers, what are the main issues, or what do they love about your product or service. If you paint this picture, this persona of an audience you're speaking to, it makes it so much easier to understand what message you want to relate back to them. In terms of the next stage, what I want to do then is take from the audience to the business, so look at your business. Again, speak to people within the business, you need to be able i gyfathrebu'ch gwasanaeth gyda'ch strategaeth cyhoeddus. Felly, rydyn ni'n edrych ar gwasanaethau, rydyn ni'n edrych ar beth mae eich busnes yn ei wneud, pam ydych chi'n wahanol, pam ydych chi'n bodoli, yna rydych chi'n edrych ar, iawn, beth yw'r busnes wedi'i wneud i'r ddiwedd o ran beth mae'r gwasanaeth wedi gweithio, beth nad yw'n gweithio, beth yw'r e-bostiau sy'n cael eu cyhoeddi mwyaf, beth yw'r negeseuon sy'n gweithio, achos yna mae gennych chi ddata gwaelodol a gwaelodol sy'n gweithio yn ôl y rhan fwyaf o'r busnes. Y peth tair, rydw i'n mynd i ofyn,
Speaker 1roeddwn i eisiau gofyn cwestiwn i chi am y ail un, un o'r heriau rwy'n cydnabod yn aml gyda llawer o busnesau yw, rydych chi wedi gwneud y pwynt am beth sy'n gwneud i'r busnes fod yn sylweddol, ac rwy'n meddwl bod hynny'n un o'r pethau self-diagnosis, mae'n un o'r pethau rydych chi'n gwybod y gall y busnes dweud dyma pam rydyn ni'n wahanol. A ydych chi'n credu bod llawer o'r bobl rydych chi'n gweithio gyda nhw sydd â, gadewch i ni ddefnyddio'r ffraith ymwybodol o pam maen nhw'n wahanol, efallai yn y farchnad.
Speaker 2Ie, rydw i'n gofyn efallai, rydw i'n meddwl beth rydw i'n hoffi ei wneud, ac mae hyn yn rhywbeth sy'n cyflwyno i mi i fy llwybr tri, sef yr diwydiant a'r hyn sy'n digwydd o amgylch chi.
Speaker 3Mae'n bob amser
Speaker 2i gael y safbwynt i mewn i mewnol a chyfeirio at y rhan tair, sef yr diwydiant. Rwy'n ei ddod yn ôl i, iawn, rydym yn gwybod ein cynulleidfa, rydym yn gwybod beth mae ein busnes yn ei ddweud, nawr gadewch i ni edrych ar beth sy'n digwydd o amgylch ni, gadewch i ni edrych ar beth mae ein cydweithwyr yn ei ddweud, gadewch i ni edrych ar digwyddiadau'r byd, fel sut mae'r rhwydwaith wedi effeithio ar busnesau, sut mae hynny'n newid sut rydych chi'n gweithredu eich cynulleidfa, beth sy'n digwydd o ran rheoliadau llywodraeth, angen cymhwysedd, fel cydbwysedd data, popeth hynny, ac yna pan fyddwch chi'n cael y tri hynny gyda'i gilydd, gallwch ddechrau dod i mewn i fersiwn a mynd yn ôl i'r busnes ac yn dweud, mewn gwirionedd, rydych chi'n meddwl hyn, o'r hyn rwyf wedi'i glywed, o chi, eich tîm a'ch cwsmeriaid, yn ogystal â'r hyn sy'n digwydd o amgylch ni, dyma lle rwy'n meddwl bod eich busnes yn seilio ac dyma lle mae'r gwerth y gallwch chi ei roi, beth sy'n ei wneud.
Speaker 1Mae popeth rydych chi wedi'i ddweud yn sylweddol. Mae'n teimlo yn fwy o ymdrech busnesol na dim ond ymdrech marketing. A ydych chi'n meddwl bod cymryd yr ymdrech hwnnw, chi angen mwy na dim ond gwybodaeth marketing neu chi angen mwy na dim ond data marketing. Felly, ydych chi'n teimlo eich hun wedi'i llwyddo rhwng y rhan o'u busnes marketing yn unig?
Speaker 2Ie, chi'n sicr, data, nid yn unig data, ond o ran gwybodaeth marketing, dim yn hynod o fawr, mae'n dim ond sylweddol. Mae'n meddwl am ffyrdd, meddwl am bethau mewn ffordd lle mae'n bod chi'n meddwl sut y gallaf i gael fwy o safbwynt o'r busnes hwn sy'n effeithio yn sylweddol ar y marketing. Mae'n fwy am gysylltu gwybodaeth a gwneud hynny mewn ffordd sy'n helpu i ysgrifennu'r holl broses i fynd i'r farchnad.
Speaker 1Rwyf hefyd eisiau cyfeirio ar hynny oherwydd rwy'n credu fy bwynt yno yw'n ymwneud yn fawr â sut mae cyllid a phwynau yn effeithio ar y penderfyniadau rydych chi'n ceisio eu wneud gyda'r client, oherwydd gyda'r holl gofid yn y byd a'r holl ddata gwych a'r cyfweliadau cymdeithasol a pob un o'r mathau hynny, os nad yw rhywun yn y busnes wedi bod yn ymwneud â chyfrifio y penderfyniadau yr ydych chi eisiau eu gwneud, rydych chi'n dod o hyd i rywfaint pan fyddwch chi'n mynd drwy'r broses hwn, rydych chi'n cael eich hen, er mwyn cael ymddiriedaeth gwell, yn cael eich hen yn ymgyrch arian o safbwynt ariannol. Nid yw, nid yw, nid yw, nid yw, nid yw, nid yw, nid yw, nid Mae'n amlwg y bydd y ffordd i allu llwyddo'r broblem ymargeiddio, ond nid yn unig y bydd y ffordd i ddefnyddio'r arian.
Speaker 2Ie, yn bendant, ac mae hynny'n bob amser yn mynd i fod yn her. Rwy'n credu bod ymargeiddio, yn enwedig nawr, wedi'i chael yn llawer mwy anodd i gael y budjet hwnnw a'i ddrysio. Ond mae'r system hon, y system hwnnw o wneud y gwaith, y cyflwyniad, y busnes, y diwydiant, mae'n symlifio'r holl bryd. Rwy'n credu bod strategaeth yn cael ei weld fel un o'r arweiniadau hynny sy'n cymryd llawer o amser, llawer o budjet, llawer o'r ôl a'r ôl, ond nid yw'n gwneud hynny. Rwy'n credu y gallwn ni ddod â strategaeth mewn lle, yn, gadewch i ni ddweud, ychydig wythnosau, nid yw'n broses hir, ond mae'n cymryd ymddygiad gwahanol. Mae'n feddwl am bethau mewn ffordd wahanol. Pan mae'n dod at y gweithredu, felly yn amlwg, unwaith rydych chi wedi cael strategaeth, mae'n rhaid i chi ari am bopeth sy'n dod ar ôl. Nid yw'n rhaid i chi wneud popeth, gallwch chi wneud pethau ar eich amser, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth rwy'n ei gyflwyno, yn gweithredu pethau. Felly mae gennych chi'r strategaeth, rydych chi'n gwybod lle mae'ch arwain, rydych chi'n cael hypothesis da iawn ar beth fydd y negeseuon yn gweithio, sut y bydd yn gweithio yn y farchnad, dechrau'n bach a gweld a fydd yn gweithio. Dyna'r ffordd gorau i wneud unrhyw beth. Os ydych chi'n llwyddo'ch arian i bawb ar unwaith, mae'n fel drosglwyddo 10 gorau tenis ar unwaith, nid ydych chi'n mynd i dderbyn un. Os ydych chi'n ffocws, gallwch chi sgalu o hynny. Ac mae hynny'n amlwg lle rwy'n gweithio ar y safon ariannol.
Speaker 1Ac yn amlwg mae ariannol yn bwynt pwysig. Un o'r pwyntau pwysig eraill yr oeddwn i'n mynd i ddweud yw mae'r cwmnïau hyn wedi gweld eu cydweithwyr yn gwneud y pethau hyn. Felly, mae'r syniad hwnnw, os ydyn nhw'n gwneud hynny, rhaid i ni wneud hyn. Os ydyn nhw'n gwneud hynny, mae'n rhaid i ni ei wneud. Pam mae angen yr holl strategaeth? Os ydym ni'n gallu gweld eu bod nhw'n llwyddo, felly mae hynny'n amlwg yn her. Oherwydd rwy'n teimlo y bydd llawer o gymdeithasau yn edrych ar gyfer cymdeithasau eraill ac yn ystyried bod yr hyn y mae'r cymdeithasau eraill yn ei wneud yn y peth cywir i'w wneud. Ond nid yw hynny'n bob amser yw hynny.
Speaker 2Nid o hyd. Nid o hyd. A, yn onest, y cymaint o amser rwyf wedi clywed rhywun dweud, "O, wel, maen nhw'n ei wneud hynny. "O, wel, maen nhw'n ei wneud hynny." "O, wel, maen nhw'n ei wneud hynny." Nid o hyd, nid ydych chi'n gwneud rhywbeth. Mae'n fel yr holl ddweud, os yw rhywun sy'n cynyddu o'r clif, a fyddwch chi'n gwneud yr un?
Speaker 1Ie, yn sicr, yn sicr. Ie, mae hynny. Ie, mae hynny. Ond rwy'n meddwl fy mod i'n hoffi'r syniad o'r hyn rydych chi'n ei ddweud, yw, chi'n gwybod, nid yw strategaeth angen cymaint o amser. Dwi'n meddwl mai dyna'r peth sy'n golygu llawer o bobl. Dwi ddim eisiau mynd i lawr ychydig o blynyddoedd o, chi'n gwybod, strategaeth a phethau fel hyn, pan allwch chi ddechrau gwneud pethau, nid yn unig yn gyffredinol, ond dechrau gwneud pethau gyda chyflwyno. Ie. Felly, rwy'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi. Y cwestiwn nesaf rwy'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi cysylltu arno ychydig. Ond roeddwn i'n mynd i siarad am sut mae'r cyflwyno strategaeth yna'n trafod mewn cynllun marketing cymdeithasol. Efallai dydw i ddim wedi gofyn y cwestiwn hwn, ond rydych chi'n gwneud eich peth, rydych chi'n gwneud eich peth yn siarad am eich pilwrau, ac yn adeiladu cyn i chi ddatblygu. Unwaith rydych chi wedi gwneud hynny, ac unwaith rydych chi wedi mynd yn ôl i'r cwent a dweud, "Iawn, dyma'r hyn rwy'n ei argymell", beth yw'r cam nesaf o hynny i chi?
Speaker 2Ie, yn bendant. Felly, ar gyfer llawer o'r busnesau rwy'n gweithio amdano, maen nhw'n sefydlu mewn. nid yw'r gwahanol gwirfoddau mawr sydd wedi'u sefydlu. Felly, y lle rwy'n mynd ar ôl y strategaeth yn lle yw'r cymaint. Ac yn ogystal â'r cymaint, rwy'n gwneud rhywfaint o fframwaith sy'n gweithio fel llyfr ddiddordeb i gyd-contyn. Ac yn ogystal â'r cymaint.
Speaker 1cornerstone of most marketing these days yeah and and and if I ask you this question it's a very open-ended question but what do you what do you like from a content perspective because I know everybody's tastes are different but what do you what do you digest when it comes to to content
Speaker 2I think the first piece is having an opinion on something okay you see a lot of generic stuff out there at the moment especially with generative at AI I mean everyone's jumping on it of course it makes life easier for a lot of people but there's a lot of stuff out there that doesn't have a point I think you need to have an opinion in the market and you need to have a point and then the second one is you need to be talking to your audience is very like simple in my mind but I still see a lot of content on websites and collateral that's we we we we we like so what no one gives a shit like talk to your audience so I I think those two I love storytelling I love it when a piece of content kind of takes you this it sets the context it kind of gives you more information things to consider something
Speaker 1that's actually useful yeah I like that idea I think I think opinion is opinion is something that AI can't do exactly an opinion based on experience is a nuance that I just doesn't have and I think of all of the content that I've shared over the years that's that's gone viral for one of a shitty word it's always been where I've had an opinion about something largely a a opinion that perhaps has two clear sides to it and lots of other people don't disagree lots of other people disagree do you think there's a danger that sometimes that you cuz I I always find that I'm very true to my sort of personal brand which is generally an opinionated argumentative
Speaker 2idiot well you're
Speaker 1English so stop this stop this right now
Speaker 2otherwise I can say something very
Speaker 1nasty about the Welsh so anyway but but no I mean my point is is that um you could either forgot what my point was opinions yeah so but opinions can be opinions can be polarizing yeah and that there's a danger that perhaps if you fill up your business brand to be this all-encompassing supportive helpful brand that you start all-encompassing supportive helpful brand that you start suddenly having opinions or things you suddenly having opinions or things you know and I'm polarizing opinions on know and I'm polarizing opinions on things that that could potentially be things that that could potentially be damaging for your brand how would you damaging for your brand how would you how would you
Speaker 2navigate that well I mean it how would you navigate that well I mean it will come down to the audience piece will come down to the audience piece as well like when you develop a persona you as well like when you develop a persona you can also go as deep and if if it is can also go as deep and if if it is something that you want to do if you something that you want to do if you know that you've got stakeholders in the know that you've got stakeholders in the business or your founders a very business or your founders a very opinionated person you can have a look opinionated person you can have a look down to the values level and say is our down to the values level and say is our audience actually gonna align with this audience actually gonna align with this and there should be maybe a rule of thumb and there should be maybe a rule of thumb like a green on the reds like topics like a green on the reds like topics that you kind of categorize and when that you kind of categorize and when you're doing it from a business you're doing it from a business perspective maybe avoid the red ones yeah
Speaker 1perspective maybe avoid the red ones yeah it's interesting I have to avoid it's interesting I have to avoid certain topics because certain topics because certain topics because I again through my experience of my I again through my experience of my I again through my experience of my personal lived experience I have a very personal lived experience I have a very personal lived experience I have a very I feel drawn to defending defending men I feel drawn to defending defending men I feel drawn to defending defending men right this is this is a challenging area right this is this is a challenging area right this is this is a challenging area to be in is I think a lot of men a lot to be in is I think a lot of men a lot to be in is I think a lot of men a lot of men do very good job out there and I of men do very good job out there and I of men do very good job out there and I think in terms of being fathers have been think in terms of being fathers have been think in terms of being fathers have been whatever it is right yeah and there is a whatever it is right yeah and there is a whatever it is right yeah and there is a lot of people that will generally assume lot of people that will generally assume lot of people that will generally assume that men are terrible people and all that men are terrible people and all that men are terrible people and all these kind of things and sometimes when these kind of things and sometimes when these kind of things and sometimes when you go into a position where you're you go into a position where you're you go into a position where you're defending you know and especially when it defending you know and especially when it defending you know and especially when it comes to suicide rates and things like comes to suicide rates and things like comes to suicide rates and things like that which is ridiculously high winning that which is ridiculously high winning that which is ridiculously high winning for men certain men of a certain age as for men certain men of a certain age as for men certain men of a certain age as well as at my age bracket it's very easy well as at my age bracket it's very easy well as at my age bracket it's very easy that defending men can seem like you're that defending men can seem like you're that defending men can seem like you're attacking women yeah and so sometimes I attacking women yeah and so sometimes I attacking women yeah and so sometimes I think from a business perspective I have think from a business perspective I have think from a business perspective I have to make sure because my the bulk of the to make sure because my the bulk of the to make sure because my the bulk of the bulk of the people that we work with a bulk of the people that we work with a bulk of the people that we work with a lot of the contractors and marketing lot of the contractors and marketing lot of the contractors and marketing people are female it's where a very people are female it's where a very people are female it's where a very female-led business but this can be the female-led business but this can be the female-led business but this can be the challenge a lot for a lot of businesses challenge a lot for a lot of businesses challenge a lot for a lot of businesses is that if you take a positive stance in is that if you take a positive stance in is that if you take a positive stance in something in terms of an opinion that something in terms of an opinion that something in terms of an opinion that can often be taken as having a negative can often be taken as having a negative can often be taken as having a negative opinion of something else yeah it's opinion of something else yeah it's opinion of something else yeah it's quite
Speaker 2a minefield isn't it it is it is quite a minefield isn't it it is it is quite a minefield isn't it is it is like even it's like a jumping on the like even it's like a jumping on the like even it's like a jumping on the bandwagon thing if you say something nice bandwagon thing if you say something nice bandwagon thing if you say something nice and if you say something that people and if you say something that people and if you say something that people don't agree with it sometimes it's a don't agree with it sometimes it's a
Speaker 1don't agree with it sometimes it's a loose loose but I think the biggest loose loose but I think the biggest loose loose but I think the biggest danger is not doing something I agree
Speaker 2danger is not doing something I agree
Speaker 1danger is not doing something I agree and I think that people go well this and I think that people go well this and I think that people go well this could damage the brand and this could could damage the brand and this could could damage the brand and this could you know all these kind of things but you know all these kind of things but you know all these kind of things but the biggest problem is to sit there and the biggest problem is to sit there and the biggest problem is to sit there and be passive in the background while the be passive in the background while the be passive in the background while the world is moving on and you're not moving world is moving on and you're not moving
Speaker 2world is moving on and you're not moving on with it yeah exactly and there are on with it yeah exactly and there are on with it yeah exactly and there are ways to do it in a way that isn't so ways to do it in a way that isn't so ways to do it in a way that isn't so public as well like in terms I remember public as well like in terms I remember public as well like in terms I remember I can't remember what it was I think I can't remember what it was I think I can't remember what it was I think there was a Mother's Day issue because there was a Mother's Day issue because there was a Mother's Day issue because now they're saying oh you can't say now they're saying oh you can't say now they're saying oh you can't say Mother's Day because of people who might Mother's Day because of people who might Mother's Day because of people who might not have a mother and things like that not have a mother and things like that not have a mother and things like that and a company who I think it was a and a company who I think it was a and a company who I think it was a health skincare brand they actually they health skincare brand they actually they health skincare brand they actually they didn't go out to market with anything didn't go out to market with anything didn't go out to market with anything but they sent an email to their customers but they sent an email to their customers but they sent an email to their customers and it was very heartfelt it was very and it was very heartfelt it was very and it was very heartfelt it was very genuine and it didn't feel force and I genuine and it didn't feel force and I genuine and it didn't feel force and I think because they didn't amplify that think because they didn't amplify that think because they didn't amplify that beyond their customer base it just made beyond their customer base it just made beyond their customer base it just made a whole lot made it a whole lot a whole lot made it a whole lot a whole lot made it a whole lot different and I think that's another different and I think that's another different and I think that's another thing again with the content it's like thing again with the content it's like thing again with the content it's like how you speak you speak with emotion you how you speak you speak with emotion you how you speak you speak with emotion you speak as a human in that way it's it's speak as a human in that way it's it's speak as a human in that way it's it's always gonna land with the like if if always gonna land with the like if if always gonna land with the like if if depending but it
Speaker 1will that yeah yeah but depending but it will that yeah yeah but depending but it will that yeah yeah but also I don't think in this day and age also I don't think in this day and age also I don't think in this day and age if something doesn't land if you make a if something doesn't land if you make a if something doesn't land if you make a mistake I don't think that's terminal no mistake I don't think that's terminal no mistake I don't think that's terminal no no it's you know there's you still see no it's you know there's you still see no it's you know there's you still see people getting cancelled through social people getting cancelled through social people getting cancelled through social media but generally I often say some media but generally I often say some media but generally I often say some people you know make make a mistake and people you know make make a mistake and people you know make make a mistake and put the hand up and go yeah right that put the hand up and go yeah right that put the hand up and go yeah right that was that was not smart we could have was that was not smart we could have was that was not smart we could have done better and that cycle is often that done better and that cycle is often that done better and that cycle is often that people will forget that and move on so people will forget that and move on so people will forget that and move on so the last question I've got for you today the last question I've got for you today the last question I've got for you today is that if you're in them if someone's is that if you're in them if someone's is that if you're in them if someone's listening to this and they and the listening to this and they and the listening to this and they and the company is just you know chugging along company is just you know chugging along company is just you know chugging along spending money on marketing and it might spending money on marketing and it might spending money on marketing and it might be working it's not you know and I be working it's not you know and I be working it's not you know and I think that's probably one of the things think that's probably one of the things think that's probably one of the things is that often people have a marketing is that often people have a marketing is that often people have a marketing they're doing things seems to be okay they're doing things seems to be okay they're doing things seems to be okay but sometimes these companies don't have but sometimes these companies don't have but sometimes these companies don't have any benchmark of what's good and what's any benchmark of what's good and what's any benchmark of what's good and what's bad yeah what do you suggest is it that bad yeah what do you suggest is it that bad yeah what do you suggest is it that they they just stop or that they just they they just stop or that they just they they just stop or that they just you know take stock of what they're you know take stock of what they're doing and review it all or you know if doing and review it all or you know if doing and review it all or you know if they're in that position is something they're in that position is something they're in that position is something they're doing something what do they do they're doing something what do they do they're doing something what do
Speaker 2they do what do they do I think don't stop if what do they do I think don't stop if what do they do I think don't stop if something seems to be working take stock something seems to be working take stock something seems to be working take stock definitely I think it's all about time definitely I think it's all about time definitely I think it's all about time right and marketers are known for being right and marketers are known for being right and marketers are known for being this group of people who are like I'm this group of people who are like I'm busy I'm busy I'm busy like you can find busy I'm busy I'm busy like you can find busy I'm busy I'm busy like you can find a day or two to spend on looking at your a day or two to spend on looking at your a day or two to spend on looking at your business seeing what's actually working business seeing what's actually working business seeing what's actually working and what isn't driving leads and what isn't driving leads and what isn't driving leads attribution is a very hard thing to attribution is a very hard thing to attribution is a very hard thing to measure with a lot of businesses so measure with a lot of businesses so measure with a lot of businesses so finding out how where a sale came from finding out how where a sale came from finding out how where a sale came from can be very difficult but as much as you can I think marketing is always going to can I think marketing is always going to can I think marketing is always going to be a little bit of unknown but if you be a little bit of unknown but if you be a little bit of unknown but if you use your common sense you could do it so use your common sense you could do it so use your common sense you could do it so I would take stock of what's working I I would take stock of what's working I I would take stock of what's working I would have a look at the industry seeing would have a look at the industry seeing would have a look at the industry seeing what your competitors are doing not to what your competitors are doing not to what your competitors are doing not to copy them but to like say I tell you copy them but to like say I tell you copy them but to like say I tell you here's a good example right what I like here's a good example right what I like to do is look at competitors Google to do is look at competitors Google to do is look at competitors Google reviews and see what they're doing wrong reviews and see what they're doing wrong reviews and see what they're doing wrong and then see okay well if they're doing and then see okay well if they're doing and then see okay well if they're doing that wrong maybe that's something that that wrong maybe that's something that that wrong maybe that's something that we can talk to right so it's just simple we can talk to right so it's just simple we can talk to right so it's just simple things like that maybe you see what's things like that maybe you see what's things like that maybe you see what's going on the world read the news read going on the world read the news read going on the world read the news read the fucking news and see okay well if the fucking news read the news read the fucking news read the fucking news read the news if this is happening here how is it the fucking news read the news read the news read the news read the news if this is happening here how is it going to affect our customers should we be going to affect our customers should we be going to affect our customers should we be talking about it more can our product talking about it more can our product talking about it more can our product help in a different way it's just taking help in a different way it's just taking help in a different way it's just taking stock as you mentioned just even just stock as you mentioned just even just stock as you mentioned just even just spend two days on it and put some notes spend two days on it and put some notes spend two days on it and put some notes down speak with your team speak with down speak with your team speak with down speak with your team speak with your sales people use key stakeholders your sales people use key stakeholders your sales people use key stakeholders you senior leadership and just kind of you senior leadership and just kind of you senior leadership and just kind of bring back some time in you today to bring back some time in you today to bring back some time in you today to take take a step back and think is this take take a step back and think is this take take a step back and think is this the best we could be doing and if not the best we could be doing and if not the best we could be doing and if not how can we make little changes to kind how can we make little changes to kind how can we make little changes to kind of
Speaker 1move forward a couple of points there of move forward a couple of points there of move forward a couple of points there um i'm not going to go into the um i'm not going to go into the um i'm not going to go into the attribution thing because that's a whole attribution thing because that's a whole
Speaker 2attribution thing because that's a whole another point oh yeah we'll be here for another point oh yeah we'll be here for another point oh yeah we'll be here for hours
Speaker 1there's a lot of theory around um you know you'll never know what where where somebody bought from so the thing is to create a sort of holistic communication plan through lots of different channels and just focus on all of those because eventually if it's done well people will contact you you know yeah they may go into your website and then instagram then pick up the phone all those kind of things but um there was a um i'll get maybe get a chance to talk about another podcast maybe i've already talked about it but the virgin virgin air airlines felt that they were in fact they would invest in lots of different areas in order to grow the brand they knew some of them they could see where they were actually getting results but some of them they couldn't but they didn't stop investing in those other areas yeah they saw it as a holistic approach rather than they overestimated they over invested in the ones that they could see results in but they didn't stop investing in the other ones
Speaker 2yeah if that
Speaker 1makes kind of sense and
Speaker 2that's the way it should be done
Speaker 1and the other interesting thing you said there about the the google reviews um i i saw this radical read this radical thing so radical so pre-exaggerating that a little bit um but they were talking that when you go and look at a competitor's google reviews don't look at the ones where they're doing badly look at the ones that they're doing well and do that because if they're if they're successful in some areas if the customers are coming to them because the service is brilliant because a product is brilliant or whatever that's what you should be paying attention to not the negative ones that you're getting that the cut that your competitor is getting because essentially for you to beat your competitor you need to be better at the stuff that they're doing well rather than capitalize on the stuff they're doing badly does that make sense it
Speaker 2absolutely does and it ties back to why marketing should not be like a silo department marketing should be taking those insights to their product teams so then the product teams or their customer service teams like that's the whole point of the strategy it's like you get this not just marketing but an overall view of your business that can help your marketing yes but help you grow as a business
Speaker 1look thank you for your time today final comments final 60 seconds of um you know kirsty insight or kirsty wisdom whatever or welsh welsh wisdom the welsh welsh wisdom the welsh
Speaker 2wisdom look i think we've covered a lot i would just say spending the time up front might seem like a big task but it's much better and more efficient to do it up front than end up spending a year wasting money on the wrong things
Speaker 1brilliant and if anybody wants to read it i'll be happy to read it and i'll be happy to read it and i'll be happy to read it out to you obviously they can find you on linkedin i don't imagine there's that many kirsty diagonals out there uh but where else can they find
Speaker 2you uh linkedin beyond the brief.eu is my website um but yeah always on linkedin awesome
Speaker 1all right thank you very much for that today um and uh good luck with uh and good luck with the the business thank
Speaker 3you thanks so much simon Thank you.
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