Straight Talk With Mediaocean CEO Bill Wise

[MUSIC] Welcome to AddXChanger Talks, the podcast devoted to examining the issues and trends in advertising and marketing technology that matter most to you. [MUSIC] This podcast is sponsored by DataAxel, where actionable data fuels connections. For over 50 years, they've helped businesses turn information into insights, igniting meaningful relationships between companies and the people they serve. With cutting-edge data solutions, AI, and technology, they empower brands to engage their audiences in smarter, more personal ways. Learn more at dataaxel.com. [MUSIC] I'm Allison Schiff, Managing Editor of AddXChanger, and thanks for inviting me, and my guest this week, MediaOcean, CEO, and co-founder Bill Wise, into your ears. If AddTech is cool, then Bill was doing it before it was cool, and he's got a lot of opinions. He'll share them. We'll dive into lots of different topics, including, of course, MediaOcean's recent-ish acquisition of CTV AddServerInnovid and MediaOcean's CTV strategy writ large. But we'll also zoom out and talk about what it means to be an independent AddTech company, aka NotGoogle. Although Google is one of MediaOcean's largest partners, it's a frenemy situation. And we'll use on why the trade desk is taking such an extreme amount of heat. The reaction to their earnings slip has been quite vicious. But first, please allow me to make a quick plug for our next conference, "Programmatic IO Innovate," which is around the corner, metaphorically speaking. It's actually in Las Vegas, from May 19th through 21st. We've got a great agenda lined up for you, including highly practical sessions on attribution, bad news, you're probably doing it wrong, a fireside chat with Paul Longo, General Manager of AI in ads at Microsoft Advertising, and a workshop on how to move beyond the buzzwords of AI and into meaningful AI integration. That's just a taste, though. And we'll also record a live episode of The Big Story Podcast, which is always fun. Visit our website to learn more and reserve your spot. Podcast listeners get 10% off as a thank you for listening. Use code pod10, that's pod10, to get your discount. Bill, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Allison. Thanks for having me. It's great to be back. All right. Well, yes, great to be back because you were the 30-second guest ever, and we are now up to episode 429. 30-second? I thought I was like top 10. Now I'm upset. I thought I was like one of the first ones. 30-second doesn't make me feel special. It is special, come now. You're special to me. It's my podcast now, our executive editor, Zach Rogers, who interviewed you back in the day in 2017. He's doing his own thing now. So I'd like to start out these podcasts by asking people for one thing about them, that not a lot of other people already know. So no facts that I could find out by perusing your LinkedIn or Googling you. That's so interesting. I feel like I'm pretty out there in terms of, I'm pretty transparent about who I am, and so I think there's a lot of about me that people know. But this always seems to surprise everyone when people ask me like, "Oh, do you have kids?" And my response is, "Yeah, I have five." And they were like, "Five, oh my god." And so a lot of people don't know my son, Connor, works in the industry. He's 25, works at a comical brand innovators. He's been there for almost three years. He loves it, loves what he does, and I love having a child in the industry, which is amazing to share and go to conferences together. And then I have a daughter in law school, another daughter in college who's studying aerospace engineering, and I have a six-year-old and a four-year-old. So 25 down to four, and even though I'm pretty transparent about who I am in the socials and whatever, this always seems to surprise everyone. I actually remember interviewing you once on a Zoom call with video, and I can't remember what the story was about, but you had a little kid sitting on your lap while you were chatting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that was my daughter. Yeah, back then. She's six now. Yeah. So you're a known quantity. What we sometimes refer to in our stories on AtExchange, you're as an ATEC OG. And so I'm not going to trace down your resume and list, your background in detail. Like I sometimes do for guests, but I do want to briefly get in a little time, machine, and go back to the '90s. So you're a CPA, and you spent a few years at what became Accenture, working in the audit and business advisory. And then in '97, you left to become the director of financial planning and investor relations at DoubleClick, which was a good decade before it was acquired by Google. But anyway, on your LinkedIn, you have this little description that you wrote about your time during the period at DoubleClick. It says, "Left the world of finance and accounting," and became an entrepreneur. When asked if I have an MBA, I say, "Yes, I got it at DoubleClick in the late '90s." So yeah, tell me a couple of tales from the early days at DoubleClick. Yeah, so thank God. I was an accountant. I was a CPA. Thank God I wasn't a very good one. Because I, you know, the only company stupid enough to hire a 27 year old or 26 year old to take a public was an internet advertising company in 1997. And I fell in love with marketing and advertising back then. And so any time I went to a conference or listened to people on stage, it seemed like everyone had an MBA of marketing from Harvard. And that kind of became my north star. And so, you know, studied for the test and, you know, back then the applications were paper. And so I walked into Kevin O'Connor and Kevin Ryan's office. They were the CEO and president of DoubleClick and said, "Hey, I'm thinking about getting an MBA. Would you write a reference for me?" And they were and they were like, "Absolutely. Come on in." I give them the sheets of paper. They look at each other and they rip it in half and throw it in the garbage. And I was like, "WTF? What is going on?" And Kevin Ryan looked at me and said, "You're going to get your MBA here." And that started me kind of on this like entrepreneur and training class. He basically was like, you need to learn M&A. Go talk to Jeff Epstein over at Incorpor development. Then he was like, you need to learn the technology. Go speak to Dave Rosenblatt, who's now running, you know, DFA or DART for advertisers. You know, and Dave Rosenblatt ended up becoming the CEO of DoubleClick later on. You know, and, you know, so we acquired net gravity and there was a small, there's a business manager named Neil Mulhan and he's now the CEO of YouTube. I know. And so I literally went from, you know, accounting to finance to investor relations. We went public. So managing all the analyst relationships, quarterly earnings. Then I went and learned sales with Wyndham Mallard. I went and did corp dev. And then I was working as like kind of like the chief of staff for Dave Rosenblatt as they were looking at the ad serving business. And then eventually, DoubleClick, and then I ended up launching a direct marketing media business that competed with DoubleClick Media. It was kind of like a multi-brand approach to maximize market share of the media dollars. And then, you know, kind of the.com bubble burst, you know, at the turn of the century. And, you know, the business I was running, which is called Sonar, was actually profitable. Whereas DoubleClick Media, which Wyndham was running was not. And they ended up merging the two together. And I kind of took a leadership role in that combination, you know, at which point everyone was like, Bill, like Bill Wise is running this. Like, wasn't he approving my expense reports like the last year. And so yeah, it's not. I know it sounds tongue in cheek, but like I literally got my MBA at DoubleClick. And I stand behind it. I love that cinematic moment of having the paper ripped in front of you. Oh, yeah. It was dramatic. It was dramatic. But by the way, I ran into Kevin Ryan, like decades later, literally to 25 years later. I ran into Kevin Ryan and I was with my wife. And it was like late night. We're out of out of out of place. And he turns to my wife. He's like, you know, your husband was like an accountant before he met me. And she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard he goes, no, no, no, no, he got his MBA from me. Like, you know, like so it was it was good to run into Kevin Ryan. Yeah, it's like a proud papa mentor style. But yeah, we're going to fast forward decades. Scrolling past the years, he spent at right media. And then Yahoo to 2010. Media Ocean created out of the merger of media bank, which did media asset management and then DDS, Donovan data systems, which was a company founded in the 60s that developed and distributed software and computer services for the ad industry, which I'm sure meant something very different in 1967. Then it did in 2010 and definitely today. So I'm just going to read what it says on the 10. And by the 10, I mean, the media ocean website. So media ocean, the mission critical platform for omnichannel advertising consolidate your advertising infrastructure and ad tech for full control of global media and creative. And that my friend is jargon city. So I need to decode it for me. That sounds like an incredible company that if you're looking for a job, you should you should go to mediocean.com and apply. Listen, uh, media ocean start like the core of media ocean, which is now a business unit called Prisma is like just a foundation, right? It's it's an age is historically an agency system. It is more like an ERP than it is an ad tech company. And what I mean by that is it does a lot of the back office functions that the financial system or an ERP would do, like reconciliation, integration to financials, all the stock audits, you know, all the billing, right payments, uh, you know, vendor management. And so all of that back office, which I call plumbing and electricity, right? Nobody cares about unless it's broke. And we never break, right? That is the most stable piece of software in the advertising industry. And then the front office to that is historically was historically linear media. And then after we merge with Donovan, we added the digital component. And that's more you're like, you know, advertiser through their agency direct to a broadcast or a publisher, right? Like kind of a direct IO business. And then as we all know over the last, you know, couple of decades, the programmatic space, you know, has, you know, more and more spend is moving to programmatic channels. And, you know, and we were just kind of like a system integrator of those things, right? We'll integrate to DSPs. And the way to think about it is like if you're a buyer at an agency buying for a Fortune 500 brand, you'll have Prisma on the left monitor and you'll have trade deaths on the right monitor, right? And, and, you know, and we've done integrations or it's Facebook, you know, on the right monitor. And so, and so that that's that's what we did, right? It's more workflow system of record ERP. And then what we realized was that there is this complex supply chain on the programmatic side. That was just becoming more and more complex and more and more costly. And we said, hey, with our level of scale and the fact that we have every single major agency and every single major market, and thus through that every single major blue chip brand, what if we started making that supply chain more efficient and we, and we started going in and saying, do we want to build by our partner our way to a more healthy supply chain? And this is at a point where, you know, kind of Google Facebook Amazon big tech, right, are just gaining more market share, gaining more spend mostly because they're supply chain cause zero, right? They own their own data, they have these big ad tech businesses on the buy side, even though they're the world's the three world's largest sellers of media. And so, you know, we started acquiring and so we acquired for C and then we acquired flash talking, we most recently acquired in a bit and this is just a way to say, what are the pieces that where we can remain neutral and independent and create a better supply chain for, you know, programmatic and then integrate that into that system of record, right? All the while the pieces that we don't do, right? We don't own a DSP. I don't think we'll ever own a DSP. We'll integrate to every single DSP out there. So, so, you know, basically we're now both the system of record, the workflow system and kind of the source of truth because we now have the ad server and do things like personalization and and now we're getting into things like brand safety and verification. So, we're just going to continue to knock down some of those mini markets and say where can the world use a standard in a way that they don't care, right? Like, you know, you can say our market share on the system of record side is so high, but yet we have contract, long term contracts and we add a level of stability and standardization that this environment needs, right? And I always say, like, look at the cell side. The cell side doesn't have the same and it shows. And so, there isn't a mediation really on the cell side that does everything. And so that's that's simply what we do. We're we're now back office and front office and the things that we don't do will in our operate to every single, you know, kind of other solution that matters and our clients want access to. So, I do want to talk at length about innovate, but I want to read you something kind of funny that you said back in 2017, Jack was interviewing you on the podcast. I'll just quote you here. It was rather provocative. You said fast forward another 12 months and I don't think SSPs will be around. I'm calling for the death of the SSP. And like the category has been under some pressure. It's a challenge to differentiate. There are a lot of challenges, but I mean, obviously the death of the SSP has happened. We've seen SSPs evolve. They've started to go direct to buyers, like DSPs have themselves started striking direct deals with publishers. So what do you think of the SSP category? Now today, all those years later. So listen, I think the I think I was actually convinced back then that, you know, with header bidding, they're, you know, you don't really need an SSP. Clearly the SSPs have shown their value, but I will say there's a reason why the largest publicly traded DSP is worth 25 to 30 billion dollars. And the largest publicly traded SSP is worth one and a half or two million dollars. So the market is as a scribing value there. And it's tough. So what you're seeing today is trade desks is now, I forget what they call open path or something like that, where they're trying to go direct to publishers. And then the SSPs, I think they're calling it curation or something, are trying to go direct to advertisers and agencies, right? And so, you know, what you're seeing now is, you know, is I think there's going to be more of an open architecture, you know, where, yeah, listen, SSPs will always exist, you know, for remnant display, mobile, you know, an open web. You know, for CTV, you know, maybe one, and I think Magnite has done the best job of kind of catering to the largest broadcasters and brands. But now you have trade desk, you know, and they bring a ton of demand. And as they start going direct to pub, you know, do these things, like do they start watering down where, you know, people who are historically on the on the sell side are now leaning to the buy side and people who are historically on the buy side, lean to the sell side. And then all of a sudden, they're all just kind of conduits between supply and demand, right? And so that being said, SSPs have survived and I have been proved their own. Well, like everything is everything, right? It feels like there are so many blurred lines. By the way, not to just rehash an episode from 2017, but I did listen to it at the time. And then honestly didn't remember it. So I listened to it before we hopped on together now. But you said something else very funny when Zach asked you, what is media ocean? Yeah. He said, basically take everything exciting about ad tech, strip that out. And that's media ocean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like listen, I've refined that to be where the plumbing and electricity, right, of the ad industry. But by the way, what can you name a single company in the software technology space who have remained in power for 60 years, right? Other than Microsoft and Donovan data systems now, media ocean, right? Like there have been no less than two dozen companies try to come after us. And you know, one most recently was a company called Hudson MX, who raised $160 million to try to go after us. And they went out of business. And so, you know, the solution, I also want to establish like what we provide is incredibly complex. And there's a reason why nobody else has been able to do it or unseat us or even try to compete with us on that side of the business. And so I take a lot of pride in that. And I don't, I think I know it sounds like a funny sound bite. But, you know, big and boring are really sure investors love big boring and 100 percent, you know, logo retention businesses. It's kind of like the advice I've heard Scott Galloway give. It's like, don't follow your passion. Yes, follow something that people need, right? That's the way you build your business on or where you should work. So I want to broach innovative before we take a break. But yeah, I mean, media ocean's M&A strategy has been very interesting. There have been a lot of companies over the years. You know, some of them, like companies that add exchanges covered and some of them, I guess less sexy, but like important. So you and I spoke relatively recently. It was back in November, right before Thanksgiving when you acquired innovative for 500 million dollars. And then the deal closed in February. And you combine the innovative business together with flash talking, the other ad server that you acquired a bunch of years ago. And now the whole Shabang is called innovative, took the innovative name. Yep. Just cool. That's fine. I just want to register my disappointment that you didn't go with flash of it or in a flash or anything. These are missed opportunities. By the way, Aaron Goldman, RCMO, who is the best in the industry, he really was pushing for in a flash. Because then it would be like, if a client says, Hey, one of these platforms going to be merged, they're going to be like in a flash. And I told him I was like, after 24 hours, that would get very old. And listen, we had an incredible problem, which was we had two companies who had decades worth of brand building. And who are both respected and known in the industry. And so when we did the surveys, they both were like off the charts in terms of brand recognition, trust, companies you can rely on. But in the end, like, innovate as a company went public and you get a halo effect from that. And so in the end, we said, why create another brand when we have two incredible brands with just great heritage and great brand recall. Well, so we'll talk about the rationale though. Although I appreciate the how much thought went into choosing the name. But when we were chatting in November and Zveganetter was on the phone too in a VSCO founder, you had a good answer to this question of like, what is the rationale? You said, there's a competitor that we have in common in a vid and media ocean. The name starts with a G and they might be under investigation for monopolistic practices. And the world needs like independent asset companies scaled ones that are and conflicted. And this is that for the buy side of the market, which it's like pretty spicy, but expand on that for me like make it real for me. Maybe share an example. Yeah, we had a we had a common enemy. It starts with a G and ends with Google. Yeah, listen, the it's really hard. Like listen, Google is an incredible partner. They're also our biggest competitor. And and by the way, Google isn't just Google, right? Google is YouTube. And so the world wants independence, but the world also wants the easy button, right? And you know, Google for a lot of things is the easy button. And you know, this actually curtailed into I think when we spoke, we hadn't yet announced this. But we were already, you know, kind of finishing off the investment by WPP on the common IPG into media ocean and the combination of media ocean plus end of it, right? And at the highest levels, at the agency, they recognize that if they allow the world's largest sellers of media to also be the largest buy side ad tech platforms, there's going to be disintermediation like the minute they, you know, they turn around, right? And so, you know, there's a reason why, you know, people, you know, kind of we're rooting for trade desks over the last 20 years. And there's a reason now, people are rooting for media ocean and end of it because we provide that independence. And the other part is we actually have a better product, right? Like so, you know, there's a lot of thing. There's a lot of data that comes from the ad server. Number one, it informs, you know, what you're going to buy into the DSPs. There's a lot of click stream data that we share transparently with all of our marketers, whereas Google keeps it for themselves. And so, you know, there's little slides here. And then the other part is at the end of the day, you know, we attach our ad server to what we believe is, and what we know through data is the world's best personalization platform. And so if you are a buyer, you want, you know, maximize, you want to maximize the ROI on your advertising investment, versus if you're a seller, you want to maximize yield for your inventory, right? And those are at odds with each other. And, you know, so if you're personalizing, that's a very demand-centric thing. How could, you know, how can you allow Google to do that, right? And so, and so, you know, this is, and what we really needed was a holistic solution that really can compete with Google and provide differentiation that people care, right? To not to say, hey, I know that it's just staying with what we have, which is really Google as the ad server is the easy button. But long-term, where does that bring me? And so, you know, and listen, the other part is, you know, we were flipping a couple clients a quarter from Innovit, and we would be in RFIs together, competing with each other, you know, and, you know, it's silly to fight over, you know, nickels and dimes, you know, when they're dollar bills on the other side. And so, together, you know, combining the number two player and the number three player to be a more formidable competitor to the number one player just makes sense. And then getting those investments from, you know, the holding companies is basically like a, you know, yeah, we agree with this strategy. All right, well, there's still a lot more to talk about. We're going to take a quick break, and when we're back, we're going to talk a little bit about the trade desk and why people don't seem to be rooting for it just right now. It's been a bit of a pile on recently. We'll also talk about media ocean CDV strategy, and a few hashtag wise words from the wise. So stick with us. I'm Allison Schiff, managing editor of AddExanger. And with me, I have Andy Frawley, the CEO of Data Axel. And I have a few questions for him about some burning issues. Hi, Andy. Hello, Allison. Thank you for having me. So it's no secret that many businesses struggle with fragmented data spread across multiple platforms. This is something AddExanger covers all the time, and this leads to inconsistencies and inefficiencies. So how can organizations break down these silos and create a unified data foundation for better marketing and better business performance? It's a great question, Allison. This is one of the burning questions that the data actually we see within our customer base. And while a lot of brands have made progress on linking legacy data together from their operational systems, what's happened over the last really five years is we've seen this massive new set of data that being generated, which is the exhaust of all the digital advertising platforms. And so linking all that data together with third-party data with the first-party data really requires an identity spine. Historically brands have relied on third-party identity graphs to do that work. The trend we're seeing is that brands would like to own that identity spine. And so help build that identity out with third-party data with first-party data and have a spine that links the known to the unknown, obviously, in a highly compliant fashion. Yes, always in a highly compliant fashion. That's very important. Well, marketers are shifting from vanity metrics to outcome-driven strategies. How can brands use cross-channel analytics and AI to ensure real business impact in a changing digital landscape? Well, we certainly recommend to our clients to focus on business outcomes, whether that's new customers, more customers, more profitable customers, customers that stay longer, and really move away from the vanity metrics of opens and clicks. So there's two important concepts when we think about this. One is incrementality. Is the marketing effort creating incremental outcomes, i.e. sales, and causality? Is it the marketing treatment that's actually causing the the consumer to buy or act in a certain way? And the cross-channel analytics tools need to embrace both of those concepts. The complication or challenge is somewhat back to the first question. First, you have to be able to link a lot of data together. In second, there'll be places where you have sparse data, where you don't have complete data sets. And so we're also seeing people using Gen.A.I. to help generate those customer journeys and have an analytically-based view of what the media exposure is across multiple marketing treatments. Down with data silos and down with vanity metrics. Absolutely. Thanks for the insights, Andy. All right. We're back. And we'll just get right back into it. MediaOcean's CTV strategy. So I asked perplexity what mediaOcean's CTV strategy is. And it told me that you're taking a three-pronged approach. Omni-channel integration by unifying media buying across linear CTV digital video and social channels, pronged to personalization and optimization through flash-ovid. Oh my god. And measurement. So, well, actually, I added flash-ovid. That's not on the complexity. So one, did perplexity get it right? You will give them a B-. So correct it. Make it an A-. As most A.I.s do. Listen, our CTV strategy, so a few things, you know, mediaOcean, you know, Prisma and core mediaOcean has been processing national linear television and spot local linear television for 50 years, right? And that's our heritage even though we've built into and grew into digital. And so when we think about CTV, you know, it's kind of like, people like to talk about, oh, there's been 70, 70 billion dollars of linear television is going to zero. We look at it as the CTV market is going to a trillion dollars, right? So that's 70 billion is, you know, pretty much at 60 billion and kind of stays there because, you know, the site-sound and motion advertising is just so damn effective that even as I eyeball shift, marketers still know there's tonnage, you can elicit a motion, you can, it's a very effective form of upper funnel and mid funnel advertising. And because of live sports and other things, ratings are still high there, right? But then you add on online video, you add on CTV, CTV will be, you know, another 30 billion this year, yet in YouTube, separate from online video, right? You know, and today, that's, you know, a quarter trillion dollars plus the 60 billion, 60 billion dollar TV market, you know, and growing it. So other than retail media, it's CTV is the fastest growing part of the industry. And so I believe that quote unquote TV will be a trillion dollars, you know, a decade from now. And then you'll have me on a decade from now and tell me I'm wrong. Or say, you thought it was only a trillion dollars, it's gonna be more than a trillion dollars. So when you look at InneVid, you know, they reach 95 million US TV households, they serve 2 billion video add impressions daily across every single country that Trump wants to tariff, which is I think 190. And so, you know, we're, it just makes sense, right? And you combine that with flash talking who also built, you know, they had both a primary ad server and a video ad server, but more importantly, had personalization products on top that were best in class. And so, you know, so our CTV strategy really is omnichannel in that we're the only company that is the EdTech company for linear television, right, on the by side. And we now have the ability to do things like household return frequency because now we have the ad server combined with that linear, you know, buying. And so there's a lot, there's probably more synergies between Prisma, Legacy, MediOcean and InneVid than there were ever with foresee or flash talking. And so it's a, it's, it's, this is a winning combo. Like I have like, I have zero doubts that this is a winning combo. And we're and and we think the world needs a holistic CTV solution that covers all of that. And linear ain't dead. I'm about to fly down to Florida to spend Passover with my mother. And when we're not doing the holiday and hanging by the pool, we are going to watch either Netflix. She loves Harlan Kovan or we're going to watch Basketball live sports on TV. She's really into the nets for her sins. They're just woof. And and my aunt and uncle, all of these people are in their 70s though, but they watch tons of television. And they buy stuff. They buy stuff. Yeah. Listen, that I, I said this on another podcast where I was talking to someone recently. There are no other podcasts. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're you're number one, but I was talking to a distant number two competitor and and I said, I asked that person. I said, who, who in terms of readings, who is the top actor or actress on linear television? Right? Well, I'll ask you the question. Do you know who it is? I don't. Last year who was? So a lot, you know, a lot of people will guess like, oh, judge duty, or you know, someone from Grey's Anatomy or something. It was Lamar Jackson. He drew more readings than any other, you know, person on prime time television. And so like it's linear television is not dead. It's just shifted, right? It's not like a grab everyone to watch, you know, family feud, you know, you know, or or jeopardy, you know, into the kind of like sign felt, right? It's shifted, but it's still there. And then listen, the streaming devices are the new television, you know, when Netflix swore they would never take advertising, you know, eventually they said, we're going to take advertising. Yeah. You know, and you're seeing that more and more. And and all of those companies are now dying to know what our strategy is, right? We're having more conversations with broadcasters and publishers now than we ever have. Because TV, here's another provocative statement, TV is the OG of walled gardens. Expand. It's a closed ecosystem where the only access to data is the data that publishers are willing to share similar to, you know, what, you know, Google Facebook, you know, Pinterest, etc. And, you know, and it has all the same attributes, right? And so, you know, we had, we know how to do, you know, a TV walled garden. And we're going to and by the way, the principles of the business want that purity, right? That all you need is access to media ocean, you need to figure out what your currency and measurement provider are going to be. And we give you access to the most effective form of advertising that's both upper funnel mid funnel and lower funnel, which is site sound and motion. And we're going to do that for the fastest growing industry that's going to be over a trillion dollars. And we're putting that all together. And so both, you know, the largest blue chip advertisers, their agencies and the broadcasters themselves are like, yeah, we don't want a 20, 30, 40% supply chain cost, right? We want a 1% 2% supply chain cost. And I would argue no one else can do it other than us. I was just thinking back to how many stories I wrote. It might have been four, possibly five stories, quoting Reed Hastings saying we will never run advertising. So definitive. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of our most popular stories last year was a story about Netflix's ad tech. Yeah. Well, they they they they use Microsoft in the beginning. And that was a big deal. And you know, and then I don't think anyone talked about now they're building their own. And yeah, listen, there is a great opportunity. It's a great time to be focused on this space. So Bill Wise, you are you are a wise man. You have seen many things. You have some wise words. So you do this thing on LinkedIn where you post your opinions, your POVs, your thoughts, your hot takes, along with some video and and some text snippets about the industry. And then you tag them hashtag wise words. And your surname is so perfect for this endeavor. And I just want to spend a little time talking about a few of your takes. So in early April, you posted some hashtag wise words about the trade desk that what TTD and and Jeff have accomplished is very impressive. It's 33 consecutive quarters of beating earnings as a public company. And you know, you write that the stock was priced to perfection, which is why the market reaction was so severe. And that trade desk lost more market cap in one week than the rest of publicly traded ad tech companies are worth combined. And I agree that the trade desk pie those are wise words. Yes, very wise. And the pylon that's happening right now, I find it kind of gross. It's like people just waiting to pound so they couldn't wait for there to be a little blood in the water or something. But why do you think people in the industry have just been so, I don't know, they've been shitting on the trade desk so much recently, just so much like it feels excessive. Listen, when you have the level of success that the trade desk has had, has had. And you know, don't forget when trade desk started, they were like the 21st DSP, right? Like and back then it was media math turn turn media math like X plus one. You know, and you know, they kind of came out and just built a better mouse trap. And then they became a powerhouse, right? And and listen, when you're not Google and you're competing against Google, you know, there is this like, you know, you know, Goliath, like, can I, you know, can I compete and and Jeff played that card, right? It's like, hey, you know, he went right after Google said there are competitor and there are a hundred times our size. And and then he proceeded to execute where, you know, trade desk and DV 360 are probably about equal sizes right now. Maybe trade desk might be a little bit bigger. And so I think when you go from being the company that everyone wants to root for to kind of be an independent competitor to Google and try to take them on. And then you become Google like, you know, then there's a lot of slings and arrows, right? Come in your way because you've had so much success. And and so it, you know, that being said, what Jeff has done should aspire us all, right? That we all can become the next trade desk, right? If you're a small tech company now, just got some venture funding, like, that was Jeff 25 years ago, right? I remember having a meeting with him where he asked me to invest. The most unwise decision I made was not investing in the trade desk. And so shame on us for kind of shitting on the trade desk when we should all aspire to be them. And they've done a good job. And listen, when you get to that size, you're going to have to make some decisions, you know, maybe not as industry friendly, right? But you have a fiduciary duty, right, to your shareholders, you know, to make some decisions. And, you know, Jeff has to make some hard decisions, right? And going direct to the sell side is going to upset his SSP partners who he relies on for inventory. So that, you know, the world is varying shades of gray. And I didn't put out that wise words about the trade desk for probably three or four weeks after kind of they had that Q4 earnings release and their stock took a dump. You know, and I thought about it. I thought about it a lot. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to root for the trade desk because we should all be rooting for the trade desk because we all compete with big tech. And big tech is eating all of our lunches. And so I think when you have independent ad tech companies, you know, we're such a close industry, we should all, you know, we, we should all, you know, root for each other. And that's, that's what I think. And by the way, what he has done is nothing short of remarkable. And when I say he, they, what trade desk is done, there's, there's, I don't think there's any company who has done 33 quarters of beaten risk. Like it's just uncanny. It's, it's crazy. And I know you, you professed a little bit of regret not investing in the trade desk back, back in the day, but you invest in a lot of other companies now through click ventures, which is your early stage investment firm. You founded it in 2007. And you're still doing it. And you've made a lot of investments. I'm just going to list a few of the ones that I'm familiar with. And there's a ton. Moat, IAS, Convertro, add this, RIP, EDO, live intent, Distillery, Skydo, Mediawala, you're the chairman of the board over there, Unicast, Chris, Architecture, and Perky jerky, which is the jerky brand created by Matt Kaiser, the CEO and founder of live intent. Yeah, sure. So when you invest, what are you looking for in a company and in a founder? What qualities? So I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to, now we talked about Scott Gallagher before, I'm going to take the, the anti approach, which is I look for passion. It's either a passion business, or you look at the founder, you know, when, when you invest in early stage companies, number one, it's highly risky. It's highly a liquid. And you probably shouldn't do it because you invest in these companies. And there's going to be no path to liquidity, probably for a good seven to 10 years. And you know, that being said, you know, I feel like this industry has blessed me. And I want to, you know, kind of, you know, bless the, the next entrepreneur looking to kind of change and alter, you know, kind of the industry in a positive way. But when you look into the founder's eyes, and you know, and you feel it in your gut that, you know, this person so believes in the problem they're trying to solve that they will be the like last person turning out the lights at night. They will do everything to make this successful. And, you know, because you're investing more in people than the idea at that point, right? Almost every company pivots at some point, sometimes they're large pivots, sometimes they're slight pivots. So you're really investing in the person, or people. And so, you know, so that's it. And then I think, you know, the other part is, now I'm taking a look at, you know, things like AI companies. And, and then saying, hey, listen, if you're, if you're, if you're AI, how is AI going to change the game? Brian O'kele is gone on stage and profess that the open web is dead and everything's moving to AI. You know, and, and of course, that's slightly self-serving because that's a strategy. But, you know, but AI will certainly change things. And, but what doesn't need to change is what we already know, right? It's kind of similar to, you know, buying TV and now buying CTV. It's slightly different, but the more it's different, the more people want it to be the same. So, you know, within AI, there's going to be an, like, an SEO part of AI. There's going to be an SCM part of AI, right? You know, brands have to figure out how, you know, their messages and how their brand is being categorized with an AI. You know, and so, you know, just applying what we know about search and saying AI is the new search, therefore, there's going to be an ecosystem that look like search. Like, and I try to apply some of those logics and find, you know, the other thing is I only hire people who are smarter than me, and I only invest in people who are smarter than me. And, and listen, there's a lot to get excited about. And so, I, even though I said, I'm not going to do any more angel investing, I still do it. You know, but I'm more a fund guy now. I, I'm an LP and a handful of early stage funds. And, and, and excited about that as well. Sounds like you want to put the fun in fund. I do put the, I put the fun in fun. Yeah, and actually the fun of Chris Cunningham, as a guy from the industry, he's at C2 ventures. And his tagline is basically like big and boring. So, he invests in boring stuff. So, how can I not get excited about that? So, boring is sexy. I think we've, I think I actually used that line in a story about C2 ventures a couple of years ago. Yeah. So, we're nearing the end of our time together on episode 429. So, we'll reconvene episode 800 and I can't do the math. Yes. So, you are an ad teco G. And so, I have to ask you my time machine question, which is putting aside the paradox of time travel. If you could travel to one specific point in history and then make one strategic change that would alter the state of online advertising for the better, when would you travel to and what would you change? So interesting. So interesting. I think I think I would actually go back to when I was at right media. And I think when, so the point in which I would change is allowing Google to acquire double click. I think there was a lot of evil that started to get created upon that acquisition. And the reality of it was that at the time Yahoo owned 20% of right media and actually wanted to buy double click. And, you know, it kind of came down to Yahoo, Microsoft, and Google. By the way, they all offered about the same amount, 3 billion, 3.1 billion. I think Yahoo or Microsoft might have offered 3.2 billion, which is a little bit higher than Google. But Google guaranteed the close, right? So, if the EU, because back then the EU was looking at blocking it, if the EU said, no, like Google still had to pay the 3.1 and then would have to like sell it to Microsoft or Yahoo. If there's one thing I can alter, it would be that, right? I think the world would have been a little bit more interesting if either Yahoo or Microsoft bought double click. Well, and I wouldn't have spent a week in Virginia in September covering the ad tech antitrust. By the way, when is that judge going to you have any insight? When is that judge going to come down on a ruling question? I don't know. Wasn't it supposed to be like four months ago? It was supposed to be fast. That district, the Eastern District Court of Virginia is supposed to be the rocket docket. And the judge, Lani Brinkema, was blazing through that trial. She moved it along and every intimation was that a decision was coming imminently. I even heard and I was on high alert during the holidays that it might have come before the end of the year. And obviously, it didn't. And now, you know, it's April. Yeah. Fascinating. The one problem I had with that trial is, you know, they always say follow the money. I think they was so focused on the sell side and, you know, it was it fair to publishers who kind of rely on Google for a lot of, for a lot of scale of revenue, but also have to compete with them. It wasn't like things like what's happening, you know, the only way to get access to YouTube inventory is through, you know, is through Google's DSP, right? And you can't use trade desks to get access there. You know, it wasn't like where are they using their solutions to be anti competitive. And so I, you know, in a way, I was kind of hopeful that maybe, maybe this is happening because they're, they're increasing the scope. I don't know. I think it's because they needed very specific market definitions. Yeah. Well, I appreciate all the wise words. Oh, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I look forward to coming back in seven years and telling me where I was wrong. Or were you right? Or where I was right potentially. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening and a special thanks to our sponsor Data Axel, helping businesses create deeper data driven connections with customers. Whether you're reaching new prospects or strengthening existing relationships, Data Axel delivers the insights and solutions to make every interaction more impactful. Explore more at dataaxel.com.