Storytelling with improv for your jury -Brian Breiter (Trial Lawyer)

This is Brian Panich from the Legal Podcasts Get in the Game. Hope you like what you're hearing and remember, sharing is caring. Subscribe if you like it, share with others, but don't forget Get in the Game. My name is Moe's Calper. I'm an attorney in Los Angeles and I'm here with two good friends, Brian Breiter, as well as Joseph Limbaugh, who teach something called "immu-prove fortrial." And we are here in this beautiful Yurt in Santa Monica, California, one of my favorite places on earth. I happen to live only a few miles from here. And I think Brian actually is also, you're not a Los Angeles native, are you? No, I'm from Miami Beach, Florida. Yeah, I'm from Miami Beach. Miami Beach, Florida. Joseph, where are you from? I'm from Portland, Florida, originally, but I moved to Atlanta. I moved there for four years. I think that founded a theater is going to become important to this conversation in a moment. Here's what I know about "immu-prove" for trial. I love, I swear to you, I read everything James Baldwin wrote. And James Baldwin loved to write about jazz. And so as I say to my own team, let's improvise like old jazz men and women. When we're in a situation, maybe there's not a solution that is very evident to us. I said to you guys earlier, "immu-prove to me feels like it's the way to tell stories these days, isn't it?" Because it's about authenticity and it's about credibility, and that's what Jury's want. So give us the high level or the Reader's Digest version, "immu-prove for trial, Brian Brenner." What the hell is it? Well, first of all, I should start off by saying I'm a trial lawyer that has been improvising for almost 40 years. And I learned very early in my legal career that we're telling stories. I mean, basically that's it to an audience of people that hopefully at the very end are paying a very large sum for the show that they've been shown. And you really have to connect with them. It's really just telling a story in a way that is, like you said, in the moment, authentic being yourself and connecting. But what I found was as I learned more and more about improv, that there it's a language. And it's a technique that once you master it and it takes, I'm still learning about it every day. You can really speak to people in a more meaningful way and tell stories in a very impactful way. Joseph and I have been doing shows together since about 2000. Yeah, literally thousands of shows. And it was about 15 years ago that we started to realize that there is a way for us to help the legal community by teaching lawyers this art form. And we've been having a great time doing it. I'll let Joseph speak on the improv. I speak on the law. And then we like a combining peanut butter and chocolate we make it delicious and together. I was going to say that I was going to say that I'm married. Yeah, I made it a chocolate peanut butter. Yeah, they're both true. Now, for me, improv is about communicating with people connecting with them and really listening. Like there's a connection between the former and the audience. You don't have a regular show because the audience will listen to your comments and change it. There's also a connection with the other people on stage with you. And I like your partner. You make your partner look good. And these skills are helpful to anyone who needs to be able to take the chance. Anyone who's a human being, which is all of us. But it's especially valuable for lawyers because so much of what you do is that performance will communicate. You might have the best logical argument that you know, in the world, but the jury doesn't hear it if they don't understand it. So, it's communication is key. We were talking before that channel was turned on. And I was saying, thinking about my last jury trial, actually, and the other side, with very just beautiful fan of us, I was wondering. And you know, the jury was, they were tired. They didn't want to be there. This is a true story. We did five days of Laudier. No one believed us that the judge let us do five days of Laudier. We probably went through four panels. Okay. And yet those people were still bored and didn't want to be there. Right? I said to you right before we got on camera. I don't think jurors want to be entertained. They want to be moved. They want to be compelled. But they don't want to be entertained. And you said bullshit. They totally want to be entertained. So one, let's talk about how you entertain them and why they want to be entertained. But I really want you to also think about this question. I think that's changed. And I think it's changed because of social media. I think it's changed because of our attention span and how we take in information. Well, the way we as lawyers have been telling stories in the last three years is very different than in the last five years. Totally different than in the last 10 years and completely different than the last 20 years. So things have changed. You know, people have gone from white boards where you're drawing stuff in front of the jury to zoom testimony now. You don't even have witnesses in the courtroom. You don't have a human being in the courtroom. And there are even cases that have been fully by zoom where you've had the jurors having a remote experience. So in order to capture their attention and their imagination, you have to tell stories differently. And that's part of what Joseph and I have been doing and creating innovative storytelling techniques by using these portfolios. Yeah, I mean, him probably is all about that thing in the situation. You can come in with a plan. So him probably is about adaption and since things, the landscape is changing and problems, a lot of that, just being able to pivot in the moment, technology when something is fine. And I'm doing a trial. How often do you do that? But it's important because people need a moment to like breathe the knowledge of the story forward. Yeah, so it's it's being in the moment. And you know, trials and lawyers telling stories of tragedies most of the time, it's scary. And jurors can come into the courtroom very intimidating and uncomfortable having to make decisions about other people's lives or about large sums of money moving from one side of the table to the other. And you know, it all depends. You have to read the room. That's a lot of improv is reading the room and doing things when they're appropriate. But there is room for levity even in the most serious cases. I just did a wrongful death case in in Florida just a couple of weeks ago. And the jurors were so scared coming in because you think, oh, Florida, there's COVID. There's no COVID. Yes, there is. There was because those jurors came in there and I asked them. I spent an hour and a half just talking about COVID and some jurors were like, "no problem for me." Others were like, "I'm terrified. This is the longest I've been in a room with other people for two years." And the judge was like, "take off your mask when you're talking to the Lord." So you could see the fear in their eyes. And so, you know, I had to tell them how scared I was and not have my mask on in a room with other people. It's a long-ass I'd been at that time without a mask on in the room. But making them feel comfortable and then getting some laughs really kind of relieve the pressure in the room. And then we started talking about a wrongful death case. So, you know, you have to be able to take the temperature of your audience and really be observational about who they are and how they're responding to the information you're given them and improv really teaches you. Yeah, I mean, we're not saying you should knock it up while you're doing your job. But like, laughter is there with the least. It's like a pressure relief valve. And it humanizes us. And if hand movements is open, it really is. It does. It's good for you. And when you're dealing with things that are very heavy, you need that every so often, just take a break from it. You know, to be able to pay attention. And you're dealing with complicated information, you know, often medical information to try to get that time to understand. And so, yeah, it's just keeping them in the moment as well. not just you do, but that will allow me all the jurors to come in. I like what Joseph just said about "don't yuck it out" because, look, I think there are people who are funny. And I think there are people who aren't so funny. And I think what I keep hearing in one of the themes as I understand more improv from trial, and I've probably been using it, you know, and just not sort of calling it that form for a lot of bike learners as well, is authenticity. You've got to be credible. So if you're trying to be funny, people are going to know you're not funny. You can't teach, you can't teach seven foot, you know, either you're seven feet tall or you're not. And you can't teach funny either. There is truth and comedy. I mean, the reality of the situation oftentimes is funny. The stakes can be funny, and embracing those moments where things don't go as planned can be funny. But again, improv, in the traditional sense, you think, you know, groundlings are comedy theater or second city. Yeah, sure. There's a lot of funny improv, but improv for trial is using these theater skills in a way to tell a story that's compelling. That is dramatic. And that is also funny at the right moment. It's that balance. It's that dance that we did. Yeah, I mean, my training comes from a gentleman named John Stowen and his book called Impro, but he's been doing this for a really long time. And his kind of holding rail of improvisation is how do you tell a story? How do you keep an audience engaged? Not just that they're going to laugh at times, laughter is a byproduct, but they're not going to be engaged unless they see a story on stage unless they see something that compels them. They see a transformation. They see something that has a door to it. And that is tricky to get to. And that's what we teach. We teach performers at the language to play. We teach something to lawyers and improv about being altered. Being the information that you're receiving change you and also observing when others are being changed. That's part of the improv language and being connected with your scene partner. And you know who your scene partner is in a huge portion of the case. The jury. You're connected with the member. This is something I tell all trial looks. There are two shows going on. There is the story or two stories. The story of your client, what they've gone through, what they're going to go through. The change is in their life how they've overcome things or the challenges they have ahead of them. That's the story. The other story happens three months earlier when they get their jury summons in the mail. I'm going out. I don't want to do this or yay, jury duty or this is interesting or I'm going to get paid to not go to work. I'm going to be on a jury for two weeks. That's your audience potentially and you have to know who your audience is and make them be a part of the other show which is the show in the courtroom, the judge, the defense attorney, the defendant, your client, you, your associate, the clerk, the bailiff that's telling people where to see. Sit. Those are all players in this other bigger story and the jury is writing the ending to that story and it's going to be based on their observations and your relationship with them. Because if you don't have that relationship established with them in a genuine way, you will lose. Or you'll have a really bad ending or an ending that you weren't hoping for in that story. I love the word story and I'm not just saying that. Before again, we turned on the camera. We were talking about a famous book that some people behind the camera know about Robert McKee's story. I remember as a young lawyer and most people who know me and know my personality do not believe me when I say this. I struggled with nerves as a young lawyer because I thought I had to memorize something that I was going to present to a jury or something that I was going to present by the way. Thank you Keith. This story is so important. This story just actually got much better because in this class it's something I love dearly. But no, where I was going with this is I think the nerves and I've asked a number of brilliant trial lawyers, including some folks who know Olivier Tally, who once said to me, I said, don't you get nervous before trial and how do you manage the nerves? And he said, "Well, of course, if I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't feel some nerves because there's someone's life that is going to be profoundly affected by the performance that I give and so I feel that pressure." But he said, you know, if you're telling the right story, if you're telling a good story, and this is what I didn't understand as a young lawyer, it's not about a PowerPoint presentation, it's not about memorizing the facts of the case and making sure you've got your dates right and all this, it's about moving people. And when you tell a good story, it reminds me of that Mark Twain quote, right? It's really hard to, you're in Joseph Smiles, so you probably know it and I'm going to get it half right. But basically, it's really easy to tell the truth because you don't have to make up any facts, right? And so, talk to me about, because I think there's a lot of young lawyers out there and this is great, this is an opportunity for you to address those young lawyers who've never done a trial, who are going into their first trial and they're scary shit and they got a tiny bit of vomit on their tie and they're going, oh my god, I've got this PowerPoint presentation and I spent 50 hours on it but I'm worried that I'm going to forget these dates and the facts of shit, I'm worried I'm going to forget my client's name. Help them understand that story means you can let go of those notes, you can let go of the inside because you're just there to tell a story. I'll let Joseph start with fear and speaking. Yeah, I mean, fear is a big problem. Basically, the number one fear that people have is speaking in front of an audience, right? Which is insane to me because it's not dangerous. It's much more dangerous to get into a car and drive around it, it'll take 60 miles an hour, but we're not terrified when we get into a car. But hardwired into human DNA is this fear of speaking and it is a big problem. Keith talks about it a lot. His whole thing is if I could just read a fear, then everything else would come. Fear is what leads us to have a trouble performing. But just like he said, most if you get connected to the story, you look at your client, they've been through something horrible. You're there to help them. You're not alone. You're there to support them but they also, the importance of their case is there to support it. There's a value to story that kind of elevates you above fear. I love that phrase. You're never going to get rid of the fear. The reason I love improv so much and the reason helps with fear is because it's on its face a risky endeavor. You're performing without a script. The audience knows it's a risk. The audience knows it could be a completely failure. But that's the value of it. There's a risk in mind. So embracing that and allowing yourself to kind of have the fear but continue on, I think it's very important. But that tells you the story. Well, part of improv and what I have learned and enjoyed the most is when surprises happen and things that are unexpected come and those are gifts for you and people are afraid of the unknown and the unexpected. Things that they didn't plan for I thrive on those things because I know because of doing improv for 35, 40 years. I'm going to take whatever information comes and make it look like I plan because I'm going to embrace it. I'm going to take that information and I'm going to build on it while my opponent on the other hand is flipping through this page and looking for the document or whatever it is. It's like, where did that information come from? It's just learning and by doing these improv exercises, learning these games, understanding the concepts, understanding something called status, which Joseph and I love to teach. The fear goes away. For some people it doesn't go away. I'm fearless when I go into those situations. Of course, I want the outcome to be the best for my client. Knowing that you don't have control of everything that's going to happen is liberating and accepting them. The reason that we have fears is because the jury is like an audience and when you're standing in front of an audience it's a bunch of human beings staring at you. In the animal kingdom, other animals staring at you easily. Yeah, it's evolution and biology. And so there's this feeling of this relationship where the audience is very scary, but if you connect with whoever you're talking to, you know, the witness, or a particular juror, if you're doing the selection, then the people staring at you that disappears. And that's kind of focusing on the person, you know, that you're in the scene with the person that you're working with, making them look good. You know, making them have a good time talking to you. I think ultimately you want every interaction that you have with someone to be a positive experience. That's your feeling. I'll just give you an example. So I actually spend more time with my experts and stuff like that, just connecting with them and getting to know that rather than going over their testimony, like don't you want to talk about the testimony? I like that. You're smarter than me. You know all the stuff already. But what I want is that just read my mind. Just go with me. I want you to imagine like we have this wire that is connecting the two of us that is invisible to the jury, but that will be feeding. Just trust me where I'm going to go or wherever you take me. I'm there with you making you look good. And if I can make you look great, you're going to make me look amazing too. And that story will come out. Of course, you know, the truth is why we're there. We're there to tell the truth to the jury. And if the jury is then already, you have credibility with them, which you have to establish early. And they're going to go along with you and go on that journey with hopefully to the end. There's a wonderful poem by Anton Chekhov, that talks it up a thread that sort of leaves throughout humanity and holds us together. And I love the notion it takes place around a fire in a part of Eastern Europe, which just reminds me of this poem. I can picture the Samovar. Yeah. That's weird. I love the analogy of with. I do like to look at that. I'm so glad. No, it just reminds me of. I like how you said it. When I'm with an expert, I want to help that mind melt that thread that. The thing that connects us all, you know, which becomes more important than, you know, am I going to say that? So we're talking about witness credibility. And first of all, that's everything. It's incredible. And I think. Well, I know because I do improv games with my clients. I will do improv exercises with my clients, getting them ready for testimony. Why? Why you don't? That's a good question. Why? Because I tell them I do not want it to seem rehearsed. I'd rather us just get to know each other and improv because I already know what happened to them and they know what happened to them. It's just the ability for them to open up and tell the story. Not to me, but with me and the jury. You're not even like a little mini ensemble with just you and them, right? It's not just me and the witness. It's me, the witness, and the jury. The jury has to be, first of all, ready to meet that witness before I bring that witness. For instance, my clients. Sometimes I want them to meet my client at the beginning. If I feel the jury in that particular kind of story, it's ready to meet my client early. Sometimes I'll wait for them to meet the client at the very end. And it really will depend again on the audience that I have. And a lot of times I will tell, for instance, I go, "Wait, listen, you have an earth on the jury, you have a doctor on the jury." You definitely want to talk about that one right over there. Number eight is probably going to be our four person and giving them information so they know who they're talking about so that they know how to talk to those people. You know, you have 12 different personalities on a jury. You can't just talk to them one way. You have to be able to talk to each jury, each juror, and communicate with them individually. I think that at least that's the way I approach it. So you coach your witnesses to do that? Is that what you're saying here? I don't know. I call it coaching. I just inform them that these are the people on the jury. This is you do expect. So they're more comfortable basically in front of the audience. The jury is in just a bunch of faceless people they don't know. They have a connection with them. Absolutely. It's making that connection. And that makes them more credible. I think so. I mean, how would you feel as a jury? I mean, you're a non-loy. Well, I mean, I think, you know, once again, like if you're talking in front of people or speaking from the jury and you have that extra pressure of knowing that the consequences of this can affect your life or someone else's life in a great, you know, a great deal. I mean, that can make it very difficult to speak at all. You know, you've been coaching me if you're putting that much pressure on yourself. So I think it's helpful if you have someone there ideally, I'm assuming, you can go over the attorney who's asking questions. You will make you feel comfortable. And we'll be there with you not just in the sense of being there, but making eye contact, being empathic with you, you know, giving you a lifelong so that you can convey the information you convey. You know what? It's important. People say, "Oh, you guys are teaching acting." No, we're not really teaching acting because, you know, when you go to see a play, right? It's a script. The play is usually going to be the same every week. I mean, because the director has practiced and rehearsed and has a specific way that they want to tell this particular story. With a jury and the story that they're hearing, there's an outcome that relies on the 12 people. And if you present a trial to 12 different audiences, you're going to get probably 12 different results. But you can beat the odds if you learn how to connect to that particular jury. There's something I want to say about acting because I've worked with a lot, you know, I've been actor and I've worked with a lot of big name actors. Most of them are terrified of improvisation. They don't want to do it. And I've also worked with actors. If I'm going to work with someone, I would prefer that they also have improv training. Because someone might be an amazing actor and very believable and very compelling and effective. But as someone who's in a scene with them, if someone is also an improviser, I feel like they see me. I feel like there's a connection. You know, that isn't always there, with even a very well-known and excellent actor. Right? It's that little bit of knowing that you are in the scene with someone else and they're not just doing this. Well, and that's what witness credibility is about. If the witness is just up there telling this story that they've thought about or planned or a witness who is an expert and they're going to just go in there and say what they're going to say, they don't have that credibility. They don't have that audience that's ready for that information. It's like there's a problem with overreversing something. You don't want someone who's reversed. You want someone to tell the truth really. That's what credibility is about. Yeah, and I think that you can see that. And if a witness is afraid or if a witness doesn't give the perfect delivery. I think that gives credibility. Yeah, I mean, when we're talking about something, we aren't perfect. There are mistakes that we make in hand. Being in the moment is dealing with those emotions. You know, that's interesting they say. I will save questions from my clients rather or for a witness that they're never expecting me to ask. Like difficult questions. I'll ask them. And it could be dangerous because I don't know what their answer will be. But I want them to appear like they're really thinking about the answer and that it's all like we talked about it. All during them in that moment. And if I trust them and they trust me, the answer will be genuine. And it's going to be part of that overall story that we're trying to tell. They're definitely in the moment if they're answering a question they didn't expect. Like that's one way to be certain that someone is in the moment. Right? Yeah, that's really cool. Because of my training and improv and what we've learned together and experimented. But we can tell stories so many different ways. We can tell it front to back back to front, start in the middle and use different storytelling techniques. and it really will depend on the audience that we have. Some jurors, one set of jury, annel, I'll tell a completely different story to, and if I have another jury in front of me. And it really takes a lot of training and understanding on how to identify those people, know the audience that you're telling the story to and how to adjust. - I just wanna say things that I love about improvisation. Teaching it is that it's fun to learn. I mean, there is a value to it, but it is still fun to teach. And that's why, you know, I always enjoy teaching it, the class always has a good time. I don't know, it's just one of the great things about it. Like there's nothing dry about improvisation. There's a, you know, playfulness. You have to learn it that way. You can't learn it through lectures. You have to learn it through participation and making mistakes and having a fun time. - Well, you know, it's also a muscle that you have to continually exercise. So, you know, travelers have been sitting, you know, watching the courtroom doors and waiting for them to open because they've been closed for so long. They've just started opening again. Trials have begun again, but people haven't done a trial or talked in front of a live audience in two years, or more, and the thing that, well, I've tried to think seven or eight trials already since July of 2021 until now. And thank goodness I've been part of this improv class because that's been honing my skills and getting me ready to go back into, in front of a live audience and communicating with them because it is hard. I mean, I remember just doing a trial with a mask on when I first started and hyperventilating 'cause I didn't realize how difficult it was gonna be to talk with a mask on for now, but now the masks are gone. And, you know, we're going back to the old ways, but I think things have changed and we have to be able to adapt on these new ways of telling stories. Courtrooms are configured differently now. We have black sea glass between us and we really have to be able to adapt to these new, these new theaters that we're in. Yeah, I mean, that's the value of this, the adaptation dealing with things that are unexpected, but happens in every trial, right? That's why it's an ideal training for believers 'cause you don't know what you're doing. What have you, since starting in Pro-Fra trial together, what have you observed about most people or trial lawyers that are first getting involved with it? Well, what is your first observation about these trial lawyers that are new to what we're teaching? Well, I think with all of the lawyers that we talk about the years, it's a lot of training to become a lawyer. You know, taking those classes, you've been learning skills and lawyers are mostly very intelligent and very logical people because that's what you've been trained to form a syllogism and to make a logical rational argument. And that doesn't necessarily mean that when you're giving that rational argument that you are speaking, well, that you're making eye contact that you're connecting with people, that you're watching the people that you're talking to to see if what you said has any impact on them. The pace that you're speaking should be based on the people that you're talking to, the audience. There's a conversation that happens with an audience, even if they're not sane, right? If they're just watching you, they're still a conversation. Someone who's giving a my log is still having a conversation with an audience, ideally, right? You know, here's something that I was thinking about. There's a lot of value to listening to other lawyers and hearing their approaches and listening to their war stories. And you know, we always hear, I can't wait to hear about this one lawyer talk about his trial and what he did or what she did in this trial. You're never gonna try that case. You understand, you're never gonna have those facts. You're never gonna have that judge. You're never gonna be in that courtroom. You're gonna be trying your case. And so you have to be prepared that when it's your turn to go in there, that you are ready. And forget all those war stories that people are telling you. Just know that if you have these improv skills available to you, you'll be ready to tell. Any one of your client stories. And again, first of all, you have to believe in your case when you're doing it. But more importantly is, it's just adjusting. I think that's the most important word that I could tell a trial lawyer who is learning improv and toning their own skills and learning this language. It's about adjusting to the information that you're receiving and the information that you're giving. How is that impacting you and the audience of your telling the information? - Yeah, it's being adaptable, right? It's being adaptable. You know, if something happens and you don't expect it to change. If something has an impact, you see it as an impact. You don't do it with people. It's a give and take, it's a conversation. And allowing yourself, we start off teaching people's guess and and accepting things, allowing yourself to be altered. It's not a bad thing to be altered. It's human and we want you to be human being. The jury wants you to be human being, right? They want, obviously they want the facts of the case, but they don't want the facts given to them by a robot. And we want to connect with people because if it is a human, it is a human truth amongst all of us that we belong for connection. And if we're in that space, we're in this structured environment where there's a trial habit and there's all these rules, we still belong for that. Maybe even more so because it's kind of trapped there. The jury's trapped there until the case is over. - I just had a crazy idea. And I think this is something we should experiment and with our advanced teacher. We don't know the end of the trial, at least if you're on the plaintiff's side is you win at dollars. Right? That's the goal. So that's the end of the story. Getting from welcome ladies and gentlemen, this is the case about playing to the verdict is you win. And deconstructing the story and challenging the lawyers to be, as part of their exercise, part of their training to tell the story in different orders and forcing them to tell the same story from different. In a different time frame, if you know what I'm saying, because this is what I encounter in a trial. Oh, we're gonna be presenting our case in how many days and then there's two days off or this witness doesn't show up or this witness is only gonna be on video and things that we never anticipated. And forcing the attorneys to be ready for these unexpected challenges, and forcing them to tell the story out of order. I think is something we should be experimenting with. - Absolutely. - I mean, that's a skill that lawyers get at. - And I know that there's improv games that we teach, you know, new choice and what comes next. These are games that we play and these are games that we teach. But I think as far as what we're gonna be doing in our next sessions of classes, I think that's a good approach to take. It's forcing the attorneys to tell the story in a way they never expected to tell. - It's kind of out of order, as we understand it. - Yeah, we're challenging them and throwing in unexpected information or moving the pieces around that force them to tell the story different. - Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you wanna get better at something, you practice it and the best way to practice it is to make it into a game and make it fun. Because then failure isn't that bad, right? You know, the consequences of the trial are very high. It highly impacts someone's life. So you wanna practice in a scene in an environment where it's hard and that's, all right, we need a place where you might have a challenge for someone might have a adventure not like Disneyland. - That's not an adventure. Inventure is dangerous, place where there's danger. - Hiking Everest. - Hiking Everest. - All right, great. So we're gonna tell a story one word, correct, one word at a time. - We are hiking in Mount Everest. - We are approaching the summit at the very tip. [BLANK_AUDIO] Suddenly there is a yaddy approaching us and it looks angry and angry. Suddenly, the yaddy says, "What is not you, you people?" We were just trying to get to summit because we are adventurers. The yaddy says, "You puny humans. I adventure all day." Really say the us every day? Yes, I do it constantly. That would be great if we could come along. Well, I guess we could try some adventurer together. Okay, the end. That's an example of one word story at a time. We don't know it's a great improv game because we don't know where it's going to go. You cannot plan a head. You have to listen to what your partner says. One of the games we generally teach earlier on, like in the first or second class, is it's such a great improv game. How many people do it in pairs? We do it with a group and then we have people do it in pairs. You can tell one word story at a time with 20 people. We do all kinds of games. For instance, if Joseph was a lawyer and we had a case together and we knew the case inside and out, we could tell that story to a jury one word at a time. Because we know the story and we're in agreement about what we're going to tell. The difference in this game is we have no idea where it's going to go. We were actively listening to each other and agreeing in that moment on what we were going to do. Beginners when they learn this game will generally tell a story where they run away from any danger. For example, we rented what you had to get interacted with. That is kind of advanced because we're trained to avoid scary things like games. But when you learn to do this, you learn that the danger is where the story is. That's what you want to go. That's what we're doing in trials is inviting the jury to watch us go into the danger. Our client is the one who's been thrust, usually not voluntarily, into dangerous situations with terrible results. Now it's being accepting that and being able to face it, which is something we mostly estimate being so are not trained to do. In the courtroom, we rely on compelling evidence often rooted in the detail work of scientists. That's why I'm introducing science of justice. This podcast by jury analyst isn't just legal chatter. It's a deep dive into law and science using real science, real data and real time. The team at Science of Justice stands for integrity. They break down complex scientific principles to serve those wronged or injured, making it accessible for lawyers and other justice seekers. So now let's really up your game and embrace some real evidence. Say goodbye to following the herd and start practicing law based on facts. You got to check out now the Science of Justice podcast.