Stormy, Deadly Night - Selma, North Carolina

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yeah, and choo choo. Yeah, indeed. Jimmy, yeah, indeed. My name is James Petrogallo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on just another crazy edition of Small Town Murder. It never stops. Never stops. We've heard a lot of feedback on old Judy Bagwell, I'll tell you that much. That case. Wow. That was apparently that really struck a nerve there. Somebody saving genetic properties and using them later, really struck a nerve. We have a crazy story today for you, we will get to that. First, head over to shut up and give me murder.com, absolutely head over there, get your tickets for live shows as a matter of fact, you can get tickets for this Saturday show if you're listening. Oh, boy. You're listening right when this comes out. Saturday, this is October the 3rd in Dallas, get your tickets right now. 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We're doing this a little earlier than we normally do. Normally it'd be another probably six, eight weeks before we do in North Carolina. But the way things fell, we're doing North Carolina and it's interesting case. I know people don't really care if they're not going, hey, we're like five, six weeks. I had a schedule here, but I don't know. I feel like I have to say something. So there might be a couple really anal people out there that are like, no, no, no. This is a head of a whole thing and they have a spreadsheet. We have people with spreadsheets. So it's, you never know. This is in Selma, North Carolina. North Carolina is an east central North Carolina, about 35 minutes outside of Raleigh, about three hours to Charlotte and about an hour, 25 to our last North Carolina episode, which was burling to North Carolina episode 707. That was serial granny, remember her? Yeah. That was a wild one. Yeah. North Carolina, you bring the heat when it comes to murder. So we're impressed. There's a, there's a Selma right around the corner from this. Why did they? Yeah. There's Selma's, as we know, a very famous Selma in the South there. This is in Johnston County. We'll find out why they named it Selma by the, like, Johnston County. This is area code 919 population. It's pretty small around here, 6,317. It's pretty rural. All of our principles live in trailers. It seems to be all trailers and like things like that. Median household income here, 25,421. Let me repeat that. Median household income. Rest of the country. 70 grand, 25,421. Broke. That is a whole family. That's a lot. Wow. That's crazy. And then Median home cost has, has create $245,100. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense. That's why everybody lives in a trailer. All right. They rent a trailer because what can you rent? That's crazy. That was crazy. There's so much trouble. Yeah. The motto here, not good luck buying a house dick face, which should be the motto. Instead, it's the crossroads of tradition and innovation. Sure. I'm sure it is. Crossroads. Innovation. Innovation, which is coming up with new, weird, like inhabited, inhabited spaces that you can have trailers, maybe a hollowed out dumpster. Nupster. Lean to. Yeah. Lean to one of those shipping containers. If you want to grab one of those. Anyway, history of this town. May 1st, 1867, lots were sold all the way around a newly established station on the North Carolina Railroad. Right. So this is one of those towns. It's only exists because a railroad came by. The town was built from these lots and considered a railroad town for a long, long time. The town was officially chartered in 1873. So May 1st, 1867, they're rebuilding a lot of the railroads from the Civil War and building new ones here. They got electric lights and water system around 1913, so then we're shitting and it's going away. Now we got something going on here and electric lights and everything else. We can see the pope leaf. Yeah. We could finally. In the dark. We can't see it in three in the morning. So they built a bunch of nice houses that are still around, you know, the downtown area, still now, these big nice, you know, whatever, spacious houses. Sure. It's a tobacco growing. First it was cotton and then it switched to tobacco later on and really it was the depression that flipped it. Oh, cotton prices sank and everybody ripped up their cotton, started planting tobacco instead. Really? People are smoking, but they're not buying new clothes. That's how the depression worked, you know. People are making clothes at a flower sex. That's what they're making clothes out of. They weren't buying cotton. So it was just economic there. Reviews of this town. Let's find out what the hell goes on here. Five stars. I love my town and I've lived here since I was born. That's good. I've had so many good experiences and have made so many friends that help each other out. Selma's a calm town and he wouldn't have any problems in this small, wonderful town. And that sounds great. Wonderful as 2L. So it's really full of wonder. Okay. It's packed with wonder. Full of wonder. Like raisin brand is with raisins. That's how much wonders. Yeah. Two scoops of wonder. Three stars. I believe it's a great area. I like that. By the way, I'm told. I believe in it from my heart, even though I don't see it. I believe it's a great area, but it's old and worn in some areas. I believe there could be more for the youth to keep them in school and off the streets. Like it's an old coat. Yeah. And here that in so many of these small towns is that there's nothing for kids to do at all. Isn't that shocking? Huff things and do meth. You know? Yeah. It's very shocking. Here's two stars. Small town. Areas furthest away from the township are the ideal location to live. It is a quaint area for the country life. And there are quite a few locations that are Wi-Fi accessible. Oh. They have Wi-Fi there. There's quite a few locations where you can actually live in the 21st century. Isn't that amazing? There's a few places that'll let you get on the internet. And this review is from 2021. This isn't from 2012. It's from 2020. There's not a single person there that's heard of us. Oh God, no. Well, they will after this and they all spread it on Facebook. And this is the type of town where they all share it on Facebook. Yeah. And then they all make comments saying how they hate us because we said they got their answers. Thank you, Mrs. Barbie. Yes. I live in Selma, North Carolina. Excellent. Selma is a really small town and has very minimum opportunities. I've lived in Selma 18 years and the best part about it is you basically know everything that goes on. I think Selma could improve with more local park and family things to do. I got no kid shit. Things to do here. The first thing is that you know everything. That seems like the worst thing you could possibly have, I don't understand that. Things to do. Selma Railroad days. Yeah. That's right. It's a milestone festival. A song for everyone, a parade, rides, a car show, live music, model train exhibits, all that shit. They've been doing it. What's the milestone? Not a real milestone. Did they call it a, what do they call it? Did I say milestone? Yeah. Milestone festival, they call it. I don't know. I don't know what that means. It's been around. It's been around since '75. Like I said, a lot of barbecue cook-offs and shit like that. Really focused on the pageants though. There is one. Where they have a poster and I'm looking at it and it is what a pedophile would put on the refrigerator. It's fucking disgusting. It is all young girls ranging from, there's toddlers here. Three. There's pictures of them. Oh, lining the whole poster are their headshots. So pictures of girls from three to say 13 maybe and like glamour shots and like the three year olds are like made up with their hair like John Benet style. It's fucking- Why would they do that? And their names too. And they live in. In case you want to go kidnapped them. Just in case your dick is that hard and you're that much of a piece of shit, you're going to go get in that for a child. Why are we pedophile fishing? I don't understand this. There's seven to nine year old division. There's the junior miss at 10 to 12. Then there's a 13 to 15. Then there's a 16 to 18. They parse them that closely because they're like, well, you don't want to have their tits to develop. Like they're treating them like like hogs or something down there. Yeah, 13 year olds. You can't compete with a 17 year old. She's so much hotter. Oh, so much hotter, man. Then there's the skippers, you're tight. There's also mini miss Selma, which is 12 months to two years as the baby miss category. The rest of everybody that shows up. Everybody that shows up with a penis gets arrested. We miss three to four years old and then tiny miss five to six years old. So everyone from a year old to 18 as a pageant for the rest of them all. Rest them all. And there's bands. The bands though are not great. They have, let's find out they have, um, give me back my skinnerd playing from three to five. Yeah. Give me back my wonder what they play. Um, yeah. Then seven to eight rev on the foreigner experience. So a foreigner cover band, and if that's not enough for you from eight to nine arrival, which is the music of journey. Enjoy everybody. Arrival. Yeah. Arrival of journey. Let's talk. God. I'm creeped out by those pageant pictures. You got to see the posters. Dude, they're disgusting. It's just so creepy. There's something for everybody. We got a little bit of journey and then two other cover bands that only do other bands. That's it. So as I'm screen shotting those posters for this thing, I'm like, I, this is on my, like, history. I took a picture of this. I'm disgusted with it. It's, it's not good. Um, let's, let's talk about some murder here. Okay. June 18th, 1989. Let's start out. Yeah. Okay. June 18th, 1989. You can remember that being a little kid. Yeah. I'm sure. Let's, uh, well, well, yeah, so that's, there's about a three year window there that I block out a lot of it. And that's right in the wheelhouse. Well, yeah, let's, let's set the, the stage for us here. So we can possibly remember. Let's find out the number one songs of, of June of that of 89 of 89. Okay. Let's take you there. So mix a lot. No, not even close. That was like 92. Um, 91 92 June 10th, the number one song that week is bet midler with wind beneath my wings. Wow. Yeah. Not surmix. So you couldn't get farther away from surmix a lot. That's why I said not even close because I'm like, that midler is, I want to see a duet between them. But besides that, I can't figure it out. Was that beaches? Yes. That's the beaches one. Well, they're friends dying or whatever. In June 17th, I'll be loving you forever by the new kids on the block took over at the number one slot. So the day before this, the new kids were number one and then satisfied by Richard Marx takes over the next week. Wow. Yep. And the number one hit that week just came out the box office on June 16th was Ghostbusters to what a great, which opened to 29.4 million dollar weekend setting a brief three day record then Batman came out on the 23rd and blew the fuck out everybody. That was the first Batman. How about that? Batman. Not some pedophile right out of the charts right out of there. That's right. So that day, June 18th at 1989, a man named John Horton is meeting with a detective named Detective Beasley here. Okay. Now, John Horton, this detective has heard tell round the sort of a who? On the way now about this John Horton might have information about a murder that happened back on May 1st. So they're going to talk to all John Horton. Now John Horton meets with the detective at the home of his sister, Tammy Horton, who he of course lives with because why not? You got to have more than one person as you can make it. No, no. Well, it's like a horse. It's his sister, his sister's boyfriend, him and somebody else all live in a trailer. That's a lot of roommates. It's a lot of roommates in a trailer. So now Beasley tells Horton I'm a detective and I've been told you have some information. You're going to sit right on down and tell me about it there, son. And Horton says, let's talk, I'm ready to tell you everything. So here we go. He then gives Beasley here a rundown of May 1st, 1989. So do you just. Now this is what the police know before they talk to Horton, okay? This is the murder that happened and what they're trying to find out about. And it's been a month and a half and they haven't really had much to go on. Now they know that a man named, there's a couple we'll talk about, Leland McGrice. McGrice. That's a good name. Leland McGrice. He's 69 years old. He has a wife named Ruby Dozier-Grice. She's also 69 years old. They have. They also. Yeah, they also live in a trailer here. Now we live in a little bit about him. He's got two brothers in the sister. He's a retired carpenter and now they have a bunch of kids too. They have two sons, William and Leland Jr. They have two daughters, Carol and Sharon. They have 13 grandchildren, five great grandchildren. All because two people fell in love. Two people, well they at least fucked a lot in a trailer. One of the two. I don't know. We just have some dick at her. You know that, they just had a real sense of responsibility and duty and they stuck her out until they were 69 years old. They're each born in 1920, both of them. In 1949, I found out, old Leland Grice here was made the Sargent at Arms for the local American Legion branch. That's nice here. They're into the community, basically. 1958, their son, William, was one of the people sent to Lebanon to some sort of militant Terry action that was taking place in Lebanon in 1958. He was sent over there as one of a small force, actually, so that's pretty interesting. Now Leland's, like I said, a retired carpenter. They live on Route 2 here. It's a mobile home. It's off of, this isn't even on this road, it's on Route 2. It's off of Rural Paved Road 1934. Yeah. That's what they call it. Rural Paved Road 1934. Fuck giving it a name. Paved one. Why couldn't you just name it after anybody? Anybody? It's picked somebody. Call it Leland's Road. I don't care. It's North Carolina called Dean Smith Avenue. Who gives a shit? Just name it. Michael Jordan Street. Does it matter? James Worthy Avenue. Is that good? It's a goddamn difference. Fuck. I like Bull Durham. Call it Cosner Street. I don't care. Yeah. So my aunt's address was Rural Route and I was like, what? I was like, son, I'll call Bruce a letter that she gave me that address. I'm like, what are we? Where are you? It's better than Rural Paved Road because it sounds like they're bragging about the paved part. Like we paved it on out there now that's, we paved some R roads. It's okay. So on the night of May 1st, 1989, there was severe storm warnings that are broadcast for the area. There's a lot of real good storms here in this mid-Atlantic region here in the South. Now, this is weird. Mrs. Bryce Ruby. Ruby was afraid of storms at 69 years old. So this is the weirdest part. She leaves the mobile home that she lives in with her husband. Leaves him there. Okay. Oh, shouldn't go with that. No, no, no. Leaves him behind. Um, to go to her daughter's house, Carol Daniels, so you go, she must live like far away and in like a big brick house. No, she lives in another trailer, less than a mile down the road. Well, how are you safer there, feel safer there than being there with your husband in the house? It doesn't make any sense. Maybe a real big storm just came through there and, uh, lightning doesn't strike twice. Maybe I'm not sure what's going on, but she's down there. This is about 8.20 p.m. She left to go to her daughter's house. Apparently the storm subsides within a three-hour window. Because at about 11.20 p.m., Ruby leaves her daughter's house to drive home right up the road, less than a mile. Now, the back door of the residence was the one that everyone used. Everybody just went in and out the back door of the trailer. And now, apparently that she left the residence when she left originally to go to her daughters. Leeland was sitting at the end of the table in the dining room with his back to the door. Okay. So the door in question is the only one at that entry point, and there's no storm door on it. It's just an open door to the outdoors. So the weather stormy, like we said. Now, she said she couldn't remember Ruby that she closed the door when she left. But they think she didn't later on. She said, "I think I locked it even." I thought. Oh, it's a swinging door. Well, no, it's a regular door, but they keep it open for air. What door doesn't swing? An Arcadia, a slider. I've seen a lot of those on a trailer. Oh, yeah, no, no, this is a door door. Regular old door here. So that's a good point, though. Now, they think, though, that on a stormy day, he wouldn't be sitting at the dining room table with the door completely open with his back to it. That just doesn't make sense. Now, she says she returned home that night. She got out her house key because she was expecting the door to be closed and locked, as usual. Because she figured it's 11/20. He's probably winding down. So she gets to the home. She enters through the back door and finds papers and the contents of drawers and cabinets scattered all over the floor. What a storm. Yeah. It looks like the storm came through with this motherfucker. Yeah. So the TV was on. The sound is turned up loud on the TV, which is normal for a 70-year-old, basically. Now, she gets in a living room and finds something that is very abnormal. And that is her husband, Leland, face down on the floor with a hole in the back of his head. Oh, no. That's not good. A 22 caliber shell casing is on the floor at his right side. And his wallet is laying on top of his back. Somebody looked at it, rifled through it and threw it down on his back. So cold blooded. Yeah, just shot this guy in the back of the head. And he has like some physical limitations, too. Ah, he's a 69-year-old retired carpenter. So he's, I mean, there's arthritis. There's back pain. I'm sure there's a lot of things wrong with the guy that's been doing construction for 50 years, enough to raise a big family and all that kind of thing. From 1920 till now, the amount of chemicals he's been in contact with, too. Oh, absolutely. And I'm sure he was in the war, also. And he was of age to be in the war. So I mean, God knows. I mean, just then. So she Ruby calls her daughters, obviously, Carol and Sherry and Sherry who arrive within minutes because they all live right there. The detective, Tommy Beasley, the one who's talking to Horton in the beginning of this story here of the Johnston County Sheriff's department, he responds to the call. He arrives at the scene. And the EMTs are already there, apparently. And they, on his way in, he was notified that he's the guy's gone. He's dead already. So, you know, crime scene it off. There's no, no revival here happening. He's been shot in the head. He had no vital signs upon arrival. That's it. So the wound that he has here, the medical examiner says an autopsy of the victim revealed a one-inch abrasion on his forehead. So somebody hit him in the forehead and a gunshot wound behind his left ear, five and a half inches from the top of his head and three inches to the left of the posterior midline. So that would be a very specific area. That's right here, back of the head. Like a mob hit, basically, right there. The wound track proceeded left to right. The projectile went, entered the left occipital bone and lodged in the soft tissue behind the jawbone on the right side. Oh, God dang. That's rough. And the cause of death is hemorrhaging along the wound track caused by the bullet, obviously. So this is, this is why we're meeting with John Horton to find out what he could know about this because you can't have old people being shot in their trailers. We can't have that. And you can't have a community. It's one thing if people are all into meth, they're killing each other or something like that. You can't have innocent old people gun down in their homes. That's nobody stands for that shit. Yeah. That's no good. It's the people that you don't fuck with. Old people, women and children. That's it. That's it. Find a very spry young white man. That's the only person who will allow. There's some, there's some fucking, uh, there's some exceptions there to, uh, I'm sure there are. Yeah, I'm sure there's some, I'm sure there's some women that whatever. But not none of them are 70 years old is my point. No, none of them are under 18 or over 65. Let's say 18 to 65. That's your killing window people. Get on it outside of that. You've passed your time. It's expired. Your real piece of shit. So here comes John Horton now. They're like, this is what we know and we know you could fill in the gap. So John lives with his girlfriend and net, his sister Tammy and her boyfriend Tommy, Tammy and Tommy. Okay. Oh, interesting. Tammy is a very lady of the 80s name. It's always a Tammy. There's not a lot of Tammy ever meet a girl named Tammy. That's worse than Tammy. They're gonna be worse. They're all very kind to women. I can. You'll cut you out. What's out for her? Now before she makes you smile. Well, how else is she going to lorry into a place to cut you? That's the point. Tammy's are always pretty dirty. Tammy's are just dirty like they have like sweat marks on their face while they're blowing. What about if they have a boyfriend named Tommy at the same time? That's the worst. So he said he arrived home on May 1st at approximately five to five 30 p.m. He said about six 30 p.m. on that night. Two of his people that he knows came over the mobile home in a truck. Okay. This is Gordon Michael Marlow, and he's born in 1968, 21 years old, and Franklin Dwayne Howell. He's born June 16th, 1965. So he's not even 24 yet. He's 23. They come over. They come over driving Howell's truck. All right. Now a little bit on Howell because he's got sort of an interesting background here. He's got a mother named Patricia Oliver, more on her later. She said that his father beat both her and young Franklin. So she divorced him after they were married for three years. That's kind of his background. Now both Gordon and Franklin work at the same tire shop together. Oh, that's where they work. So the success is yeah. Skies the limit for these guys basically private jets and, you know, expensive meals and, you know, that's a friendship. The champagne. Yeah. Yeah. Wine. They just, you know, a lot about BFG's. I know Mickey Thompson's. Let's hang out the jewels. The, you know, it's, it's a lot. It's a, it's a high flying lifestyle working in a tire shop when you're 21. Making a rain on everybody. So Howell asked John Horton if he would drive him later, drive for him later that night. Will you drive for me tonight? I need to work need to drive. Clearly players. We need a driver to drive. What do you hear? The big player reason they need a driver. It's, it's amazing. It is the most white trash thing in the history of the world to need a driver for. So Horton asks, Howell, why you want me to drive and Howell gave him no reason? Okay. Then Horton said, well, yeah, I guess I'll drive you. I asked you a question. You didn't answer it and now I'm going to agree to what you want. No, you're going to cry in the positive in the affirmative. So around 9 p.m. Howell here, Franklin and Gordon Marlow. They come back. They come back to the mobile. They just stopped by to see if he'll drive later tonight. He said, yes, they leave. Okay. Okay. They come back again and Horton goes outside to talk to them and Howell again asks him, can you drive for me tonight? I need you drive me tonight. So Horton said that now he understood once he got near them. He understood why they wanted that because he said they were quote, he could smell that they were quote, doing lacquer thinner. They're doing it thinner. They're doing thinner, Jimmy. This is not even gasoline. This is fucking lacquer thinner. Huffing thinner. Huffing thinner. I mean, we tried that in woodshop in like the ninth grade for two seconds. We're like, oh, that makes you really lightheaded. That's not not a big hover. They're huffing it so much you could smell it on you could smell it on them and they're planning on it being a big night of Huffing. That's why they needed to be driven so they could do more lacquer thinner. And that's what he said. He said he could smell it. And so he was like, well, I guess I'll drive these two idiots around while they do lacquer thinner in the back of the fucking truck. Okay. We need a driver. We're twisted off that Thompson. We're all lacquered up right now. You mean liquored up? No, not even liquored up. We lacquered. Let's twist it off that water seal, man. Wow. Let's lacquer thinner. So it strips that. - It strips lacquer. - And they're like, "Let's smell it until we're hot." (laughing) - Real deep. - Yeah. - What the fuck, man? - Sniff it, but you can't spell. - I can just, I can't remember what book it was, but there was a book describing this cook who was working in this kitchen. He was like at a prison and he was covered in tattoos and all the other cooks that he did thinner. And that was like, they're all scared of him 'cause he sniffed thinner all the time. That's what these guys are doing. Oh God. So Horton, John Horton agrees to drive and he goes back into the house to get, to remove a trailer to get dressed. You get dressed for the evening. You gotta really put your best on when you're taking two idiot tire shop workers out for a lacquer party. You really gotta really dress up. So Horton says that he assumed that they wanted him to drive so that they could continue to sniff lacquer thinner. - To do lacquer. - K-5. - To do thinner. - Keep doing thinner. Getting lacquered up. So, this is like Groundhog for breakfast when they're talking about. - I mean, there's drugs and there's things to hoff. And this is like, I'm out of every useful thing to fuck me up. Let's go out to my grandpa's shed. - I'm out of model glue. - See if there's anything strong. It's the fuel tank for the lawn mower was empty. There had nothing. They said lacquer thinner. - Damn, is there, they lacquer self-awareness? - They lacquer a lot. - This is episode 740. We've never had, and we deal with the trashiest of the trash on this show. We have never had two men fucking sniffing thinner as their entertainment for the night before. - And it's not even just like they're, they're last ditch effort. This is their plan so much so that they hire to drive. - Yes, they started doing it earlier and they're going to continue doing thinner for the rest of the night. Not even stopping at a six pack thinner. Okay, so they get into Horton says he and Franklin Howell and Gordon Marlowe get into Howell's pickup truck with Howell driving for some reason. The whole point is so Horton drives, but Howell's driving now. - What do you want to bet? This is a single cab pick. - They leave the my friends. Probably is, it's 1989. There was a lot of extended cabs back then. This is 380 on a bench seat. Bet your ass. Well, two of them passed. And you know that this guy's in the middle. Horton's in the middle 'cause he's the last to come. So they're passing the thinner over him. Okay, no. - Don't spill it on me. - They leave the house. Horton said that when he gets in, he noticed that Franklin Howell's 22 caliber bolt action rifle is in the cab as well, which is not odd or out of the ordinary for this area either. Horton had seen the gun and he even fired the gun previously. He knows the gun well, he knows it's his gun. Horton says that Franklin Howell was wearing camouflage clothing and that Gordon Marlowe was dressed in all black pants and black shirts. They couldn't decide what environment they were gonna try to blend into. The woods or the night they can't decide. - They do know that they're gonna be trying to disappear here shortly. - They shouldn't stand next to each other no matter what 'cause one of them's gonna stand out whatever the occasion is. They're in the woods, they're out there. So the three men rode around for about 30 to 45 minutes. Now at this point during this time, Howell here, Franklin asked Gordon Marlowe, you know anywhere where we could find easy money. So they're going back and forth trying to figure out how to not sniff thinner anymore and do actual drugs probably. And yeah, so they're discussing back and forth about places they could get easy money basically. - Jesus. - Admite night in the country. - A job tomorrow to throw the easiest. - That's what I would say, yeah. Then it doesn't make it tired, I guess, no. - Yeah, is there a hangover from that ship? - Gotta be a little time, a little one of those. - I painted a bathroom with primer that was oil based that I got on accidentally for two days. - I was destroyed, I've never been more fucked up and- - Jimmy was a physicist before that. That happened when he was 18. He was like, he had a MIT scholarship. Everything was- - I could read all that. - Much different. Yeah, he was amazing. The diction he had was just, top notch, so eventually how will ask Horton to drive? Take over for me, I'm all, I'm thinnered out right now. Too lacquered to drive. Nackered, no lacquered. The English like to say knackered, there's no lacquered. So Horton says that Franklin Howell went to the end of a dirt road near what he later learned was the Bryce residents. So okay, I thought it was paved, but apparently it's not at this point. And it's a loose word pick. - Yeah, pavements weren't off point out. So now Howell and Marlow, Gordon and Franklin, Marlow here who has a rifle with them, they get into the back of the truck. So they climb out and get into the bed of the truck. - That is the more fun place to walk. - Well, you drive, especially when you're all thinnered up, that's the way to do it. - Yeah, we gotta feel like we're being chauffeured around. We gotta get in the back, we're down in the back. And then when you have that window open, when the driver's talking and you wanna act like you're better than that, you just slide it shut. You're like, boom, take that. We're gonna need some privacy back here, sir. - And some champagne, thank you very much. So Horton says that Howell, Franklin Howell, spoke to him through the rear sliding window of the cab. So he's literally the little window. - He has a single cab. - Fuck yes, it is. And told, I don't think there wasn't a lot of extended cabs in '89. That was like a 90s invention. - And it wasn't necessarily like a full cab, there was a smaller cab back there. They had like the folding seats that come down. - I had them on like the dualies and shit, but like a normal residential pickup truck that wasn't like a four door wasn't common. - No, no, no, not the four door at all. So I mean, I'm sure they existed, but they weren't like the common thing on the road. Especially if I'm sure they're not driving a brand new truck. This is probably a 72. - A 72 where they definitely didn't have any extended on any cab. So you couldn't even move this fucking seat back. It was just the benches in this position. Enjoy. (laughing) So he's telling him through the rear window to drive slowly down the dirt road because he and Gordon were gonna jump out. Don't stop anywhere. Just drive slowly and we'll jump out of a moving car. How will Franklin Howell also tell Horton that after he and Gordon Marlow jumped out, what he needs Horton to do is circle the dirt road twice, do two circles, and then we would, we're gonna jump back into the rear of the truck as you're doing the second circle. This is gonna be timed perfectly. This is a real operation here. Now Howell further tells Horton that if Horton doesn't see them on the second time, he is to go down rural paved road 1934 to a red barn where they'd all meet up. Why don't we just do that? - Oh, that seems easier. Why don't I have to circle to license you, hop in a moving car. So Horton said that he slowly proceeded down the dirt road adjacent to the Greiss resident, residents, and that Gordon and Franklin jumped out. As they did so, Horton heard one of them. He doesn't know who, but one of them say, let's get it over with. Okay, as the two men ran in the direction of the Greiss residents, Horton said that Howell had something tucked under his arm and that Gordon Marlow had the rifle. So that's where that's going. Horton said he drove down the dirt road for about one and a half miles until it intersected with a paved road, which would be unpaved road, number, whatever the fuck I'm sure. The paved rural road, number 1934 is unpaved. Is anybody have a problem with that besides me? Is that breaking your brains out there? Please tell me, they call them that to keep the foreigners out. Something like that, man. Tourists. Wow. So then after it intersected with a paved road, he turned left on the paved road and looped back around to the start of the dirt road at the intersection next to the Greiss resident. So big cycle race track, like a big old race track. Now Horton said that he didn't see anyone, so he looped around again. Running like Daytona. On the second time around, he sees Marlow, Horton, just Marlow running across the field with the rifle. He's running across the field. Marlow jumped into the back of the truck and told Horton, turn around and go back to the end of the dirt road and turn left on rural paved road, 1934. Uh-huh. And Horton said he did just that. Now, when he got to the barn between the Greiss and Daniels residences, that is by the way, their daughter, Greiss's daughter, that she went to go see, um, Marlow screams slow down. And at that point, here comes Franklin Howell jumps back into the back of the truck again. Okay. So Horton proceeds down the road until it intersected highway 39 and then Howell and Marlow got back into the cab part of the truck out of the back and, you know, tried to do some more thinner. So Horton then says, once Gordon and Franklin were inside the cab, Franklin Howell asked, quote, who reloaded it? And Marlow responded he had. He said, I did. So Horton said that as he drove back to his trailer, Howell and Marlow were just joking and carrying on about murdering somebody. Oh my God. Just having a good old time about it. Once back at the trailer, the Horton trailer, the Horton Tammy Tommy trailer, Marlow pulled out a black bag and threw it into the glove compartment. Yeah. Horton said that bag sounded like it had change in it, like he threw a change bag in there. Okay. So obviously if they robbed the place, they really made out big haul. 'Cause 70-year-old retired carpenters who live in trailers on unpaved paved rural roads really have it all. They have stacks of cash to take all the time. Well, it's pirate gold. It's probably. They were more than cash really. Yeah, well the price of gold goes up all the time. That's outrageous. Now it works. So as Horton walked around the truck, he saw a duffel bag with a tape player inside, which by the way will later be identified as belonging to the grises. Oh. A tape player and some change is what they got out of this. Big, big day. So Horton said that he went into the trailer and went to bed at that point. Now the next day, apparently somehow Tommy Ray had heard what happened and knew the details and told Horton what had happened, what he heard had happened, and even drove him past the grise trailers, say that's where it was. And he was like, oh yeah, this is the road we were on. So then two weeks after apparently, two weeks after the murder, Howell's truck was searched. Now they're still not in custody yet, but their truck was searched and they discovered the gun and also found Mrs. Grace's tape player. But didn't arrest these guys somehow. You have the murder weapon and the booty from the fucking robbery. That's, yeah, I don't know how much for evidence you need. That's not far round here. Not enough, man. Then finally, June 18, 1989, as soon as Horton gets out his last sentence, they go and arrest both of these guys 'cause now they have an eyeball witness saying exactly what happened and everything else. Now, so this day, they're both arrested on June 18, 1989. Franklin Dwayne Howell. He was an interesting arrest. - FDL. - Yeah, FDH. He was arrested at his residence here on charges of first degree burglary and first degree murder. - Yeah. - They all, now this isn't one cop coming to the door to arrest somebody for first degree murder. This is, they bring a tape, this is like a bunch of guys, basically, a lot of guys come to the front door 'cause you never know. And you know the guy who shot somebody, so he might be dangerous. He comes to the door with a 44 revolver drawn, comes to the door with a fucking hand cannon pointed at the cops. That's how-- - How old's house? - Yeah, this is how Howell opens the door. - Oh boy. - That's the greeting the police receive. Now, all the cops are armed, but none of them draw their pistols. (laughs) - Dang it easy, Tackleberry. - Wow, that's amazing. I feel like that's, he'd be shot in three seconds now, right? - Well, they'd at least have 'em out. - Something, I don't know if they thought that would escalate the situation or what, but two of the deputies had warrants and they arrested him. So once he realized what was going on, he put the pistol down and he was arrested without incident. So the detective, Tommy Beasley, advises him that he had information that his 1977 Ford truck, I think-- - That was close. - I think my grandfather had a 1977 Ford truck that he always drove. - Always. - Is that the one that's the unibody that the bed is attached to the truck? - No, I think it's earlier. - I think it's earlier. Yeah, I think it is. - I think it's like 60, so it's a, it's close. - It was too toned and had a red stripe, a cap on the back he had and his license plate said, "Happiness is being Italian." That was his fucking, that was his truck. (laughs) That was his license plate holder. - Very funny. - Very funny. - San General Food Fest. - It's where it's from, yeah. - So his 1977 Ford truck, blue and white in color had been used as transportation in the grise case. That's what they're telling him right away. We don't know if you're involved, but it definitely know it worked. That's what happened. So he said that his truck, license plate CRK 9745, it was his truck, so they said, "Is that your truck?" He said, "Yes." So then he sells him that he's going to do an inventory of the vehicle and have it stored as evidence and they said, "Okay." - We're going to impound it basically. - Yeah, we're going to take it and that's when they found them. So I guess that was just wrong. The two weeks after the murder part was just wrong. That was from a different article. So a lot of times articles will mess stuff up like that. So anyway, he said to the detective, "Okay." Now later on, he said that he also understood that the detective was going to search his truck. Another cop went over and read to him the permission to search premises and auto form and introduce that to him as well. He got to sign this piece of paper and all that. It was signed below the last paragraph, witnessed by multiple deputies and officers and they didn't even sign, they didn't chorus or threaten or promise anything or any of that shit. Now. - If a cop asks you to look in your car, would you have any inference that whatever they find is bad for me? - Probably. - Especially if they said we think your truck's been used in a murder we'd like to look through it. They're not just looking for a dime bag in there. This is. - No, they're not looking to exonerate you. Certainly not. So there is a guy here that they talked to that is Kermit Matthews. He's their boss. Both of these idiots tire shop boss. - Kermit is the tire boss. - Tire boss, big boss, Kermit Matthews. He said that he employed those two guys in his tire business. He said that he believes that both Gordon Marlow and Franklin Howell went to Virginia on May 1st, 89 to pick up a load of tires. He said if they had traveled to Virginia that day they would have left around 3 a.m. and returned home anywhere from 6 to 8 p.m. Which 6.30 is when they showed up at Horton's place saying, "Would you drive me tonight "and then take them off and come back later, "smelling a thinner." So. - Wow. - That all fits into that. - All day. - All day. That's a long trip to Virginia there. That's a Christ. It's like a 15, 16 hour round trip. - And then you get back and get twisted on the lacquer? - You want to do thinner and shoot people and drive on unpaid paved roads. - I want to go to bed. - That's what I would want to do. But March 13th, 1990. They're both arrested. It looks like there's going to be some pleas being taken here. - Oh. - A judge called the cases of them here. The council for Marlow said that the defendant has authorized me to tender in his behalf a plea of guilty to second degree murder as well as a plea of guilty to first degree burglary, robbery with a dangerous weapon and felonious conspiracy to commit burglary. The defense attorney here, Howell's defense attorney, the other guy, then entered his pleas too, which was the plea of guilty to first degree murder and all the others. So the judge said he could not accept a plea from Howell to first degree murder, absent of finding that the state had no evidence of any aggravating circumstances. Basically, you can't put yourself in a death penalty pensions what they're saying. - Okay. - So if the state has no aggravating evidence, that means there won't be a death penalty thing. Then you complete guilty to first degree murder, but you can't put yourself in the electric chair basis. That's the way they say it. I'm the fucking gurney or however you want to put it. So the district attorney then said that this proposed plea arrangement is a package as far as I'm concerned and is contingent the one upon the other. So he says if the judge won't accept Howell's plea, then we won't accept Marlos plea either. - Is that right? - Yeah. They either both plea together the way we want them to or we're going to trial with both. - We all start, yeah. - So they bring up Marlowe Gordon Marlowe's polygraph, apparently during the examination, he was inconclusive on the questions directed to him as whether or not he was in fact the person who shot Leel and Grace. So first they say they're going to have joint trials. They're going to join the defendants for trial. That's what they're doing. Then it becomes a political thing, I don't know where. It becomes a political thing because there's a big article of the DA's murder cases are to be surveyed. There's an accusation that the DA picks and chooses who he imposes death penalties on or not imposes, but tries to impose death penalties on. - Based on criteria. - That's a judge has ordered an independent survey of all murder cases prosecuted by district attorney, John Twizzdale, after a lawyer charged, he had been selective in pursuing the death penalty. Because people he doesn't like, I don't know what it is, or it's racial or whatever. The judge here granted the lawyer Jack O'Hale's request that the court pay for research into all murder cases, tried in Twizzdale's district, Twizzdale's district since the state re-enacted the death penalty. So they said that in his motion, the lawyer said that since '77, Twizzdale has sought the death penalty in only two cases in the 11th Judicial District, which includes Johnston, Hartnet, and Lee Counties. In the rest, the district attorney had allowed the defendants to plead to lesser charges. So the result is a policy that discriminates against defendants who choose a jury trial. So they're saying, yeah, we'll give you a sweetheart deal if you just say you did it. You know, it'll be life in prison or 30 years or whatever, but otherwise it's gonna be the death penalty we're going for you. So that gets a lot of people to plead guilty. Certainly, yeah, sometimes even if they're not, that's the problem. We found that. We found that since then with a lot of DNA shit. So they said twins, Twizzdale, who's been the district attorney since '71 declined to discuss the matter. The other lawyer who filed this also declined to comment. He is Marlow's lawyer, though, Gordon Marlow's lawyers, the guy who filed all this shit. So that's how this works. Now May 5th, 1990, they now come out, the Tom Locke, who's a candidate for district attorney against the guy that they're investigating. He supported this action to look into his cases, but he says it's not politically motivated. No, not just a good guy. Do it the fact I'm running against him. I'm just a good guy. That's all it is. So he said, quote, I had nothing to do with the original motion. The motion was filed by John O'Hale, a defense attorney representing one of the co-defendants. I, it was filed without my prior knowledge, just because I'm into it. You know, it doesn't mean I'm a dick here. It's because I like it. Yeah. So they said that bears two apparent signatures. Here's the problem is the adopting motions that did this bear two signatures. One is the attorney, O'Hale. The other is Thomas Locke, the guy who's saying he had nothing to do with it. He was signed the original papers. Yeah, it appeared at the time of 1115 AM appeared on the motion filed by O'Hale. In cursive handwriting, the time shown in the Locke Hale was stamped on the documentation. Now, the, the DA is saying that this is politically motivated. It's been leaked to the media and all this type of shit. When they asked Locke, did you leak it to the media or how did it get out to the media? He said, I have no idea. The Smithfield Herald ran the story of the week of the court hearing. These things are a matter of public record. Maybe they looked into it. Who knows here? So he also said the law enforcement in the 11th district typically selects the most serious charge to levy against the accused person, which is just how it is. That's just the law, yeah. Whenever you're watching interrogation, they're like, you're going to be charged with the highest murder now. Yeah, immediately. And then we'll figure it out from there. But yeah, when they say, well, throw the book at you, they already did. Yeah, they're going to definitely trying it. So yeah, they said that the superior court judge now has given the go ahead to prosecute both men here for the death penalty. Basically, rejecting the defense contention that a DA uses the threat of the death penalty to get plea deals out of people. So they say, no, the judge says the district attorney has not used the threat of capital prosecution to chill a defendant's right to trial by jury or chill or interfere with the exercise of any other constitutional rights by defendants. I mean, they do, but I think it's more like they're saying that's kind of a loud gamesmanship as what it seems like. Because they absolutely do that. Absolutely fucking do that. That's it's that a doubt. It's bait to get you to not go to trial. Yeah, you plead to all this shit. Or I'm going to go for the death penalty, like, oh, well, that sounds like a long drawn out process, the whole point of this whole system that we built. He said, Marlowe and Howell have not been singled out for capital prosecution and are not being treated differently. And any other defendants charged with murder have been treated. Okay, well, it's not what his attorney say. They say, uh, the judge said here, many attorneys, um, he said, uh, and none indicated that they felt their client had been selectively prosecuted. He said he interviewed a bunch of attorneys and they felt like, you know, that it's been fair prosecution. He said there was had been five cases in which defendants had exercised their right to trial by jury and we're not tried for their lives. So they're like some of them actually don't get sharp, you know, they don't push for the death penalty. So yeah, the judge says not going to have that. There's a hearing then of motions before the judge, um, and the state announced now the intention of trying the defendants separately. Oh, with Gordon Marlowe coming up first. Um, so that's how they're going to do it. May 3rd, 1991, um, they try to the, the defense tries to put emotion to enforce the plea agreement. Hey, we had a fucking plea deal and they backed out of it. So let's enforce that. The judge said, no, can't do that. He said the district attorney did have discretionary authority to enter into negotiated. Please among multiple defendants and package deals. So that's not illegal to require a package deal. Then the state formally made a motion to sever the cases and that's how it goes. Marlowe's trial comes up here. Gordon Marlowe, um, Horton is the star witness in both trials. Obviously he was there. So he testifies over constant objections to two conversations that he had on May 2nd. The day after the murders with Franklin Howell in the presence of Tommy Ray, his sister's boyfriend. Right. Um, and in response to the prosecutor's question, did you have a conversation with Howell? He said, I asked him, um, did him and Gordon have anything to do with the death of Mr. Grice? And the prosecutor said, uh, in response to the prosecutor's question, uh, he don't say anything he said as a result of any answer he gave you, did you make any further comments to him? So they're saying, don't do hearsay right now. So okay. Don't say anything he said is with those prosecutors. Did you respond to that? Yeah. In another way. Did you make any other further comments? And Horton said, I told him the best thing to do is to not come back around to stay away. He said, uh, then he said, right before we left, Franklin Howell came out with a, with that particular tape player and a black one and tried to give it to me and Tommy. He stole and tape player, um, Horton then said that he saw Howell later the same afternoon again with Tommy Ray presence, but when the absence of Gordon, uh, of Gordon Marlow and Horton asked him straight up, did he kill Mr. Grice? Um, and then again, the prosecutor said, don't tell me what he said as a result of him, uh, saying that did he make any response to you, but don't tell me was it yes or no? Just tell me, did he answer the question? Oh, don't say what he said. Just say if he said an answer and Horton said yes. And he said as a result of that, did you respond anything to him? Uh-huh. Because if he said no, that would be a totally different response. So now you can tell what he said without getting hearsay. This is the way of getting around hearsay, which is clever. Um, this is pretty good. It's just giving half the script, you know what I mean? Yeah, you could, you could make an inference of what, why is that word again? Yeah, you could decide what the other person said based on We've all heard a one-sided phone conversation. Yeah, you know, it's coming on after three minutes, don't you? Oh, yeah, you know, sometimes you can, you know exactly who's on the other end too. Absolutely. Yeah, you can tell. That's the attendance office. I'm fucked. I'm shit out of luck. Oh, really? You get that? Yes, this is so. And so how many hours was he missing? Oh, shit. What time was that that he would and then he'd start looking at you while they're talking and you're like, oh, shit. When your mom would look at you while being on the phone, you know, you're deep shit. So he said as a result of that, did you respond anything? And he said, again, I told him to leave and not come back around, which would infer that he said he did kill the person. Because if he said he didn't, he wouldn't say, well, you need to take off if you didn't kill a guy. Horton then said that how will tried to give him a $20 bill? Like here, take that. That should smooth it over. This is my lacquer budget for the next week and I'm giving it to you. Give me my tenor money. $20. $20 bucks to shut up about the murder. You didn't hear shit, did you? Yeah, he did. $20 dollars. Then he gave him a thimble full of thinner and he's like, that sweet in the deal, any? Yeah, you get that to a parking attendant. They're telling the cops everywhere that car went every goddamn place. But he gave it back. He said, didn't accept the 20s. No, he said he didn't know anything about the grise murder until he heard the news the following morning. He said that he described the activities. The whole thing we told you of dropping them off, driving around, who was carrying the rifle, who was doing what? The bag of black bag full of change, a duffle bag with a tape player, all that shit. They get Tommy right up on the stand and first they argue that the trial court aired by overruling the objection to raise answer of this testimony. Question, what happened after you pointed out to Horton that that was the trailer that Mr. Grise had been killed in the night before? Answer, he couldn't believe it. Another question, when he said he couldn't believe it, do you say anything to indicate that to you? And he said, quote, he just started shaking. He didn't know what was going on or anything. Now raise testimony corroborated Tammy Horton's testimony, John Horton's sister. Tammy also testified that she had asked howl whether he was responsible or part of the death of Mr. Grise as well. So that's how it goes. Now, this doesn't look good. They have the murder weapon, stolen shit and an eyeball witness and other eyeball witnesses who's after the fact heard about it and was told about it by the murder. This is not a good case for the defense. That's why they were willing to play. Yeah. Yeah. That's why you take the play because you got witnesses and the weapon. That's it's bad. That's bad. And the product of the robbery. It's all the elements are right there. So the verdict comes in and he has found guilty of first degree murder and second degree burglary, first degree burglary and robbery with a dangerous weapon. Those are called aggravators. Those are called aggravators that is not good. Now during sentencing here, he doesn't have much to say, but he's lucky you, sir, may fuck off life in prison for murder and consecutive sentences of three years for conspiracy to commit second degree burglary, 15 years for first degree burglary and 14 years for robbery with a dangerous weapon, all consecutive. I don't think he's ever getting out, man. It doesn't seem like a 15, 14, that's 29. And then another three. So that's 32 right there plus life. He's only like 22 at this time, but still you ain't going anywhere, my friend. Even if you do 40% of that, you're fucking to be there to rest your life. A long time. So then there's the Howell trial, exact same evidence. Yeah. They also take issue with the testimony. This one's a little different of Ruby Grice and her daughter as well, describing Mr. Grice's physical condition and work history in response to questions by the prosecutor. They're saying, you're, you're just putting stank on it now, sure that he couldn't fight back and all that kind of shit because his whole thing is provocation. He's saying this guy made me shoot him. That's what they're trying to say in this case and they're trying to say, no, he didn't because he's like kind of disabled and not really. He wouldn't try to fight a 22-year-old who's holding a rifle probably. He's not capable of it. This elephant, it was relevant because it had a tendency to make the existence of a physical confrontation between them less likely. A physical confrontation, the state contends, could be some evidence of provocation on part of the victim. Even if it's 2%, that might be enough to get him out of the, out of the needle out of his arm. Sure. They said the defendant, on the other hand, argues that the evidence is irrelevant and prejudicial and the defendant, but there was no objection to it at trial, official objection. During the closing, the prosecutor says the defendant argued that the prosecutor, but later on, made a number of improper arguments, including serious factual misstatements, urging the jury to convict the defendant on the basis of completely irrelevant considerations. Okay. They called lying. You can't do that. That's what they're saying here. One of the things they said that he contends, there was no evidence to support, was the prosecutor's argument that Mrs. Greiss knew something was, quote, wrong because Mr. Greiss hadn't called that night down at the house, down at her daughter's house. He argues that the prosecutor's argument, urging the jury to act as the voice of the community went beyond permissible limits, encouraging the jury to convict the defendant based on irrelevant considerations. Every, every trial, they say that. Every trial. The voice of this community and dispatched the justice. Exactly. So, anyway, verdict comes in, guilty, first-degree murder, robbery with a dangerous weapon, burglary, first-degree, and conspiracy to commit burglary in the first-degree. So they return all of this, all also dangerous weapon things, and the apparently robbery with the dangerous weapon and first-degree burglary are predicate felonies that go on to the case as aggravators here, too. So during sentencing, the court here submitted to the jury statutory aggravating circumstances that Mr. Greiss, the murder, was committed for monetary gain, and whether the murder was committed while the defendant was engaged in the commission of a burglary. And the jury answered both, yes, to both of those. Mitigating circumstances, they presented evidence through witnesses to Sheriff's Department employees, testified that Franklin was very cooperative and pleasant in jail. Virginia Howell, his half-sister, said that he was a great brother and got along well with his grandparents. His mother, Patricia Oliver, testified that he was her oldest child and that his father beat both of them, so she divorced him. She also said that his sister, Mindy, had terminal cancer and that he was the only person who could save her because his bone marrow matches hers. So you can't kill him because he's the only person who can give bone marrow to his sister. Well, that's a sticky one. She also said she thinks the Marines messed him up because he was in the Marines for a minute to messed him up. So the jury says, you said, may fuck off death penalty, for you and your sister. You, your sister, all is. In addition to that, 40 years for robbery with a dangerous weapon, 50 years for first degree burglary and three years for conspiracy to commit burglary. So why do you get it so hard? Attack on another 93 years there. They thought he was the, the main guy, yeah, he was the driver here. So anyway, Marlowe appeals based on a bunch of different factors that we don't have time to get into here. One of which was that they were talking about the polygraph and they say it didn't come up in court. Anyway, so the fact that he took it makes no difference to the fact that he was arrested. The plea agreement also, he's saying they didn't allow us plea agreement that he had. Right. They said that the proposed agreement between the defendant and state had no effect as a matter of law because it had not been approved by the trial judge, prejudicial testimony saying that John Horton, they committed error by letting him admit, say certain things up there. Horton's oral assessment that he told Howell to not come back around to stay away, they said that was just a trick to get around hearsay and should be counted as hearsay. But that's all loyering is is finding ways around things and what goes here and that's that's what a lawyer is avoiding it, but yeah, kind of doing it here are the rules. How can I get around them? That's what he that's what it is. And then unless they make a law against that, that's still allowed. That's the law. But Howell's actions of attempting to give Horton the tape player and later attempting to give him a $20 bill were non-verbal assertions also constituting hearsay. I've never heard of non-verbal hearsay before. You can't you can't hear shrug. You can't do the say is the part here say it would be what see fucking see do see do see motions. Yeah. Your honor objection. See do that's a see gesture right there. That's that is no exception to the hearsay rule is a statement by one co-conspirator made during the course and in furtherance of the conspiracy that's admissible against conspirators. But they're saying that the conspiracy was active, but it ended that night. So anything said that night, you can say what they said because that's during the whole thing. But the next day the conspiracies ended. So now that shit is not shouldn't be allowed in basically and they're like that is really splitting hairs and no. So yeah, they said the admission of those statements though they end up saying they some of them were in error, but they said that they were not prejudiced by their he was not prejudiced by their admission didn't change anything. So keep fucking off life in prison. How will appeals about the death sentence here. They said they find no reversible error in the pretrial or the, you know, guilt innocence phase here, but they find error in the sentencing phase and we'll find out here why they said the court aired by allowing Johnny Morgan to act as de facto lead counsel in violation of the rules and regulations relating to the appointment of counsel for indigent defendants in a death penalty case. No attorney shall be appointed to represent at the trial level any indigent defendant charged with a capital crime who has less than five years experience in the general practice of law. That's the thing. Now, James Levinson was appointed lead counsel and the other guy the Morgan guy who was licensed in September 87 so not even five years ago was the assistant counsel in April 91. Levinson moved and was allowed to withdraw his counsel and the court appointed the other guy. So that's how it works, so they're like, well, you can't really do that. So anyway, they said that both attorneys, a different attorney, there's an experienced guy and another guy they assigned here, they said they would both serve as lead counsel and it turns into a fucking mess. So basically you're not allowed to do that. Also the court didn't allow more evidence of provocation. They said that his statements basically said that they didn't allow him to say that that this guy, that Leela and Christ caused it himself. He wasn't good. Wasn't going to shoot him, but Leela made him have no choice, basically, provocation. Which is not for innocence, but that is for trying to get rid of the aggravator to mitigate it a little bit. Yeah. But they said that he died of a gunshot wound to the head, which entered behind his left ear. So that how you provoke somebody from the turn around just doesn't make fucking sense at all, but they did find out that apparently in a split decision, the court said jurors should not have considered that the slaying was committed during a burglary and that it was done for financial gain as separate factors leaning toward the, leaning toward the death sentence. So they upheld the conviction, knocked down the fucking sentence. So he's resettanced to life in prison. Keep fucking off. But do they, are they friends with Leeland? Is it was there? - They had to know of him. I think everybody knows of everybody here. - Yeah. But do they have any personal interaction with Mac at all? - That we're not sure of. This is, by the way, rural and not tremendously well covered. This was one of the longest it ever took to put together an hour shows today, just to find everything and just pour through newspapers. I found in 2006, member Patricia, what's her name? Patricia Oliver, Howell's mom. Howell's mom is trying to replace somebody as the state supreme court clerk and she's running in a primary for this. She said she doubts that any of the hiccups in her past will haunt her in the election. The article says she has explanations for it all. About her son, she says the US Marine Corps ruined him. He came home a different person after a brief stint, she said. She hints at this family wound in a radio ad. Quote, I don't think anyone raises their children to be murderers and rapists. The ad never mentions her son or his murder conviction. You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying. But she said that she believes her son is, she wouldn't say whether she believes her son is innocent. She said, my belief is, if you do the crime, you need to do the time. Now, the Fetley and Bryce's family super fucking pissed, Carol Daniels, the one who lived down the street, said it's an insult to the courthouse, an insult to the taxpayers, and it's really an insult to this family. Oh, for her to be overturned? No, for her to run for something because her son's a murder, which I don't think that's wrong. That's ridiculous, though. I think you could put the fuck you can't run all you want. But you can't control the kids do put it this way. If you have five kids and they're all fuck ups, you're fault. Yeah. If you have five kids, yeah, one of them's a fuck up. That's not your fault. Something else happened there. She's got plural hiccups, she said, plural hiccups. So currently Gordon Marlow is a fender number 0256220. He is at Davidson Correctional Facility, I guess. Here, let's see. I found his, yep, he has no date of release. Oh, wow. He's in there, he's in the regular population. Drizzle life. Has a lot of infractions. January 92, misusing medicine, April 92, fighting. March 97, disobeying an order. March 97, misusing an unauthorized phone slash mail. 2001 substance possession. Uh oh. 2020 disobeying an order and substance possession. Okay. So he's learned nothing. Franklin Howell, number 09, or I'm sorry, 0194160. He's at the Johnston Correctional Institute. Also not going anywhere. And he has a couple, too. He has a disobeying an order, a fighting, misusing the mail, and then another fighting in 2017. They got the same infractions. Yeah, this guy keeps fucking up. You're almost 60 years old. You're fighting. How fuck is wrong with you? So there you go, everybody. That is North Carolina, Selma, North Carolina, and just a crazy case of a, didn't need to happen at all. Nothing gained. There wasn't a lifelong beef. There wasn't money in for the nothing. They got a radio some change. It may cost him money if he's tried to pay 20. The hush in a 20, he may come out upside down on the deal. I think so, especially with the, you figured a lacquer budget, lacquer thinner budget in there, too. It's, it's out. It's expensive, right? It is, I would imagine so. If you enjoyed that show, get on. Whenever app you are on, give us five stars. God damn it, doesn't help a lot. Netflix, double thumbs up is a winner and we appreciate it. Really, really helps. So thank you for doing that. Definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. If you're listening to this before October 3rd, you still have time. October 3rd, Saturday night in Dallas. Get your tickets right now, then two weeks from that. 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