Stop Feeling Guilty About Wanting Money | Vivian Tu (Your Rich BFF)

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When life gives you lemons, make lemonade? No, when life gives you lemons, make sure you have sugar and water and a spoon available. I feel like if the market is down, like we need to text each other and be like, it's okay. Yeah. A financial group chat, be like, now's the time to buy or actually think about buying rather than like freaking out. I feel like guys probably have some sort of group chat that like, are like, bye, bye, bye. Yeah, it's called Reddit. She take my money when I'm in need. Like literally. When women are seen as gold diggers, going after economic stability, after a man who has money, whatever. We don't call the men potty diggers or looks diggers. We don't call them those things. Let's be real. Every decision you make in life is a transaction. Are you okay with the one that you're making? We need to unbrainwash our gender, generally speaking, and say, everything that you want, you can have. I'm Sheree. I'm Jean. I'm Vivian. And we're the Tiger Sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're. We're a top 10 business podcast bringing late-night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Hi, Tiger fam. We have such a special episode today. We're sitting next to someone who's basically the internet's BFF. That's right. It's Vivian Tu, also known as your rich BFF. Vivian started her career on Wall Street, moved into media at BuzzFeed, and somehow combined the two of them to create one of the most influential financial platforms on the internet today. Today, we're talking about how Vivian built your rich BFF. into a financial media platform, and the early lessons that helped her turn her financial education into a massive business. Welcome, Vivian, to Tiger Sisters podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, Vivian. We're excited to get super tactical with all the insights from the rich BFF world. So, we've seen you say that in your adult lifetime, you'll probably see five to seven major downturns, and that these moments are actually huge opportunities to build wealth, which is why rich people love it. Are we in a recession now, and how do we build wealth during a recession? Yeah, so I think we have to think about what people who have money and don't have money are actually doing during these economic downturns. I don't know if you remember, but roughly March of 2020, we saw the stock market go and everybody was selling. It was like trying to catch a falling knife, and it was very scary. For so many people, people saw their retirement accounts have, people saw, you know, the savings that they had planned for their kid to go to college have, like people were freaking out. But if you had money, rich people thought, hmm, this might be a really good time to scoop up investments that haven't seen these prices in years and years and years. So they bought. They bought probably on the way down. They kept going down. They kept buying. They kept buying. They kept buying. And then it started to go up, and they bought two, and they bought again, and they bought and bought and bought, and by August, not that much longer, actually, we saw the market essentially rebound. And since then, we've actually seen, for the past couple years, the S&P 500 has been one of the most insane returning indices. It's returned roughly 25% a year. That is unheard of. I mean, that is rivaling the returns of some private investments. So I think when we talk about, you know, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, no, when life gives you lemons, make sure you have sugar and water and a spoon available. And so for everybody listening, when you're thinking about taking advantage of any sort of economic downturn, it's about. It's about having capital to deploy. It's about making sure the rest of your financial picture is already in a safe, holistic place. So your needs are being met. There's food on the table. You're not that worried about, you know, whether you're going to be able to keep your house or keep your rent, whatever. But it's also about making sure that you're being smart with that allocation. You know what else is going to go down when there's economic downturns? It's also a really good time to buy designer goods on the secondary market. But are those necessarily going to rebound the same way that the S&P 500 will? I don't know. It's also a really good time to take advantage of travel deals. Are those going to provide you as much value as an investment? I don't know. That is up for you to decide. But being prepared for these moments and being mindful of what you're spending and investing looks like during these especially incredibly important. It's usually five to eight, actually. Five to eight economic downturns you'll see throughout your life could be the difference between whether or not you're OK or very comfortable. As for the technical definition, for it to be a true recession, you have to see two quarters of down GDP growth. We're actually not technically in a recession, but it does feel like a vibe session. And it's felt like a vibe session for quite some time because it has been a K-shaped economy. While the people who have money, like we talked about just now, have continued to get richer and richer and richer, the rest of us, regular people, have really felt a squeeze on our wallets, at the grocery store, at the gas pump, in our rent, in everything that we need to spend on. And so even though it may not be a technical recession, a technical economic downturn, sure does feel like it for so many people. So is now one of those good times to basically be ready and invest? Here's the thing. It's never about trying to call the bottom. It's about making those healthy choices throughout your life. So it is impossible for us to know whether we're at the bottom or if we're at the top. If I knew, trust me, I would not be on this podcast. I'd already be retired and bora bora. You'd never hear from me again. But the joke is the smartest guys on Wall Street don't know either. And so if you're consistently in a recession, you're going to be in a recession. You're going to be investing a fixed dollar amount every single month. When prices are higher, you'll naturally buy fewer shares. When they're lower, you'll naturally buy more. If you see that there has been a major move, I think we all can generally appreciate what a major move looks like. We're seeing a major drop on the chart or a major rise. You can make some decisions about meaningfully buying more, taking a quick beat. But that's all to say we don't know. So do I think you should be investing? Right now? Hell yeah. But I think you should be investing all the time. Yeah. I think the thing that my biggest takeaway from this is that like having a cool head is so important, especially when like, I mean, during the COVID 2020, when the market completely tanked, I think people were panicking, even if they did have money put to the side and they were going to be fine. Like the news outlets, everyone on Instagram was like freaking out. And so it's don't be caught up in that wave. It's by the way. Natural human psychology. Did you know that for most of us, if I give you $100, the joy you feel is less than if I, if you lose $100, like I stole it out of your wallet or something like the feeling of loss is so much more magnified than the feeling of a win. And so when we see our portfolios drop, it's natural to feel a little bit of anxiety. And I, it's so funny as someone. Who even provides this guidance to so many people. I'm like, Hey, maybe don't check your investment portfolio when the market's down, you're going to hurt your own feelings. I checked my own portfolio the other day market was down. I was like, ah, and it was, I was like, wow, that's a much smaller number than I was hoping to see. And you know what? I have to laugh because it's really just, I have to take my own advice, stay the course, continue investing and think of right now, you know, think of those moments. It's like a buying opportunity. And you know, what's so funny, this podcast is going to come out and it's going to be a completely different environment than when we've recorded it. The market's going to be in a different place. Things, headlines will be different. The geopolitical climate might be different. We don't know, but it's the tried and true method. Yeah. We're not going to have a financial group chat. Be like, now's the time to buy or actually think about buying rather than like freaking out. You know, I feel like guys probably have some sort of group chat that like, or like buy, buy, - Yeah, it's called Reddit. - Yeah, right? like now it's the time to buy i don't know i feel like we need one of those for for women yeah but it's almost more like emotional support group yeah to not freak out yeah and to do the thing that you like know in your head that you should do exactly okay vivian one of the things you mentioned is that during a recession different industries kind of go up and down so luxury and discretionary spending often uh often drop and things like health care energy and consumer staples hold up better yeah so for someone who's thinking about their career yeah not just their investments how should people think about recession proofing their job or their industry um so i think it's pretty intuitive right think about it during a recession when the economy is not doing as well when there are fewer dollars that are discretionary able to be spent people are naturally going to cut back on things that are not necessary but you're still going to need to get health care you're still going to need to be able to turn your lights on so energy and resources are going to need to be put into place and so i think it's important to think about that and i think it's important to think about how you're going to be able to do that in the future so i think it's important to think about how you're going to be able to do that in the future so i think it's important to think about how you're going to be able to do that in the future maybe you're in marketing you can do marketing for a maybe you're in marketing you can do marketing for a tiny startup tiny startup tiny startup that you know pairs stylists with luxury that you know pairs stylists with luxury that you know pairs stylists with luxury buyers buyers buyers you could also work at a major bank you could also work at a major bank you could also work at a major bank and do marketing they all they all need and do marketing they all they all need and do marketing they all they all need marketers they only people marketers they only people marketers they only people software engineer you can software software engineer you can software software engineer you can software engineer at a engineer at a engineer at a big big mega tech company big mega tech company or you can be a software engineer or you can be a software engineer or you can be a software engineer for you know a local media agency for you know a local media agency for you know a local media agency they need a website too and so they need a website too and so they need a website too and so it's thinking about if you are looking it's thinking about if you are looking it's thinking about if you are looking for certain things out of your life for certain things out of your life for certain things out of your life what is going to provide you that in what is going to provide you that in what is going to provide you that in some cases if you're single you're some cases if you're single you're some cases if you're single you're looking for rocket ship growth looking for rocket ship growth looking for rocket ship growth maybe it is taking the more risky maybe it is taking the more risky maybe it is taking the more risky option option option you want more money that might be the you want more money that might be the you want more money that might be the choice choice choice but if you are the head of a household but if you are the head of a household but if you are the head of a household if you have people who are relying on if you have people who are relying on if you have people who are relying on you for food maybe you want to consider you for food maybe you want to consider you for food maybe you want to consider pivoting your career towards an industry pivoting your career towards an industry pivoting your career towards an industry that will naturally hold up a little bit that will naturally hold up a little bit that will naturally hold up a little bit better better better during periods of economic boom during periods of economic boom Maybe the raises won't be as big. Maybe there won't be as much fanfare or as much increased revenue, but it's consistent. So do you want consistency or do you want growth? So I'm hearing you say accountants rise up. Accountants rise up 1,000%. 1,000%. I really like this question because I think it's getting into how men versus women think about money. So something you recently said that stuck with us is that we need to un-brainwash women into realizing that it's actually okay to want to be rich. Why do you think ambition around money is still celebrated so much around men but often criticized with women? And what are we doing about this, Vivian? Like literally, I say those first few lines and you already know I'm singing Gold Digger. That phrase has become so. It's so disgustingly pervasive as a tool to keep women down. And it's so funny to me. And when I say that, by the way, it's like when I say it to my husband, I'm like, I just think it's funny how and I'm about to like go off. Rip. Like, I don't think it's funny. I think it's strange that we do not talk about the other side of that transaction. When women are seen as gold diggers going after economic stability, after a man who has money, whatever. Like, we don't call the men hottie diggers or looks diggers or, you know, babe digger. Like, we don't call them those things. Let's be real. And for women, I think we should be loud and proud about the fact that we want financial stability. Like, I don't love the idea of relying on a man for money. Not because I think you'd get called a gold digger, but because I feel like if somebody has the power to feed you, they have the power to starve you. I am more comfortable knowing that at the end of the day, I'm going to decide how I eat. I'm going to do it for myself. But we should encourage women to want money. Even in a corporate setting, when you see a woman who is ambitious, which is a positive connotation word, she's often described as power hungry, which is a negative connotation word. When she is assertive. Positive connotation word. She's bossy. Negative connotation word. But you've never heard a man be described as bossy. Never. Only as a boss. Literally never in my life. Like, literally not once. Why is that word reserved for us? It's so gendered. It's disgusting. Yeah. But I think once we are comfortable as a populace wanting money, being unabashed about the fact that we deserve money, we're not going to be able to do anything about it, we're not going to do anything about it, we're not going to be able to do anything about it. And we're not doing this for the love of the game. Like, none of us work for shits and giggles. I am here to make money. I'm here to do my job and I'm going to do it well. I'm going to be the best at it. And that's why I get paid to do it. But, like, I'm not here for my health. And so I would say we need to unbrainwash our gender. It can help you with practicality. Basically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. It's weeknight dinners. Sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier. So you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Generally speaking and say, everything that you want, you can have. And don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. OK, so Cherie, can I make a really nerdy confession? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. OK, so as a former product manager, a founder and a shopper, one feature that I love is the Shop Pay button. Wait, same. But for anyone who doesn't know, Shop Pay is Shopify's one-click checkout. Which basically means that if someone has checked out before, their information is saved so that checkout takes like two seconds. And as a business owner, that matters a ton because the fewer steps there are, the less people abandon their carts. Yeah, we've seen this all the time with our business sisters, Masha. Because there are a ton of repeat purchases. And this feature makes it so easy for our customers. So instead of worrying about complicated payment systems, we're able to focus on the fun stuff that actually matters to us, like talking with our community, focusing on our product, and creating an amazing experience for our customers. So if you've ever thought about starting your own business, go right now, drop everything you're doing, and go to shopify.com/tigersisters. One of the things we talk about most on Tiger Sisters is how women need to be financially independent. That's like one of the pillars we talk about all the time. So if someone's listening, they're like, OK, I'm down. I want to unbrainwash myself. What should they do? Should they just listen to what you said on repeat five times every day? It's two things. I think it's having a conversation with yourself and having a conversation with your friends. So having a conversation with yourself, I remind myself every single day in the mirror when I wake up, I'm like, only good things happen to lucky girls like you. Every dollar you have made, you have earned. No one gave it to you. You are not overpaid. You are paid what is market. You deserve it. I remind myself that I am the only person who can do what I do. I currently have the things that me five years ago literally was dreaming about and that I don't owe anybody anything. Hell yeah. I'm so happy hearing you say this. I'm almost tearing up. I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. That is the feeling, though, I want us to have for other women, because you sitting there and saying I'm proud of you instead of I'm jealous of you tells me about where you are at. But I think so many women have a hard time-- and this gets into the second part of talking to your friends-- have a hard time actually talking about their successes with other women. Because your girlfriends will be there for you when you need a shoulder to cry on. It's always nice to have a fun story for the group chat. But actually, it's when you're winning that it's really hard to talk to your friends. Because if you are in the wrong circle, sharing your success sounds like bragging. And on top of that, in many cases, we have, again, brainwashed into ourselves into thinking that there's only room enough at the top for one of us yeah and i very much ascribed to that belief for a long time because it was true when i started my career as a trader on jp morgan there was only one other woman on the desk she was my manager she was 16 years my senior and there was no other woman like there was a 16 year gap between her and me and there were no other girls on the team yeah like what does that say yeah like there there was always only allowed to be one token girl yeah and when one of the women was starting to get more senior then we'd have to hire one more and it's like wait we didn't have that rule about white guys yeah we certainly there were 30 40 other white guys so like i think we have to stop convincing ourselves that people that look like us need to fight over the crumb they're willing to give us just cut me a bigger slice of the pie we need to take more there need to be more women you to be more women in c-suite positions there need to be more women who own businesses who own companies who are founders who are getting vc funding who are talking to each other about how much they make what they're spending what they're actually earning taking home what they're paying their employees when we finally have these conversations by the way it gives us all the power we ran into each other roughly a month ago we were at south by and we were at a woman's podcast event and i was like you guys the guys are talking about this in a secret group chat and i can't remember if it was one of you guys or somebody else came up to me and told me that one of the men at the event actually said oh my god how does she know about that group chat yes like there was there's gene no someone told us that literally there is a actual group chat i'm like i wasn't joking guys there's an actual group it's probably a discord yeah but like it's so silly to me yeah because why am i trying to fight with you to be at the bottom of the pyramid when we can all just have our own pyramids yeah i mean one thing we've said before and we still say all the time is like when we look at the you know top business charts or like top charts for podcasts and we're in the top 10 we're like we're always one or maybe two of the women in the top ten yeah and we're like it should be it should be all women like that should be our goal i'm not looking for parity i'm not looking for parity no i think top ten should be all women like that is my goal for our industry and one percent i feel like i used to be afraid to say i know i'm not afraid like why should we be yeah they we didn't have parody we haven't had parody we'd ever no never why not flip the flip the scales it's barbie's world that's all i want that's right that's all that's all i want and he's just ken he's just ken i have a question that's like a little bit off script which is you talked about you talked about sometimes in your friend groups there are people it seems like who are not happy for your success or are not really celebrating you like when you're down they're like oh like i'm so sad like let me commiserate with you but when things are going well you just crickets crickets crickets right i mean what's that about what's that about and also how do we deal with it because i think jean and i are over the last like year and a half we've transitioned from our corporate lives into a new um vertical a new medium completely and so i'm like it's kind of weird that we're not seeing the same support um that we had before um from some of our peers yeah yeah and do you feel bad about it or no do i let me answer that question first do i feel bad about it no because it doesn't matter who cheers for you did you cheer for yourself i ask myself this all the time i'm like are you proud of the work that you're doing and if the answer at any point becomes no i got to stop whatever it is up until now the answer has been yes i'm very proud of what i've done but i think i will be clear i don't have any more of these frenemies in my group anymore because i just don't have time like that yeah i don't have time to be you know around people who are player hayden like people oftentimes look at you and they're like what are you doing what are you doing what are you doing what look at you and they see a mirror of the things that they have yet to accomplish or dreams that they had to sacrifice or they see a reflection of the work they weren't willing to put in and because of that they resent you for having put in the work they resent you for maybe getting a lucky break because let's be honest all of our success is largely hard work but some luck was involved some good timing some you know friendly mentor somebody helped you they are going to hate you for doing something that they can't and that sucks but I will say it helps you figure out who your real friends are really quickly I feel so lucky to quote a be a song I got the same five friends with me it's been the same five friends since college like you know the same girls that I was friends with getting drunk with in college are were the same people who were my bridesmaids at my wedding and I can't count on them it's so funny sometimes when I go on like talk shows um I don't even get texts from them I'll get a text from like their mom and Judy will tell me that I looked wonderful and she'll text my friend and my friend's like I didn't even know she did that but like great I love that um and I think it's just like she's my daughter too but like that tells me my friend has gone home and talked to me about it and I'm like I don't know what to do with it I don't know what to do with it and I'm like I don't know what to do with it but like that tells me my friend has gone home and talked to her mom about how proud she was of me yeah like it mattered enough to her to share with her mom yeah and so I think that's a representation of like truly wanting the best for your friends and feeling like a rising tide does lift all ships and you know if I can be kind of crass I mean my friends have really benefited from the fact that I've made a good deal of money I'm paying I'm picking up dinners I think I'm starting to get to the point in my life where I'm starting I'm gonna pick up vacations but I'm not gonna do that because I'm not gonna do that for just anybody yeah and I'm certainly not gonna do that for fake friends hell yeah yeah well also like what a joy it is that you're able to make that money and spend it lucky on people you love so lucky and like I was able to fly last minute to Vegas to spend a weekend with a girlfriend who was there for a work like a semi-work thing like mullet travel work in the front party in the back and it was a situation where like no one else was able to make it and she was feeling really lonely and we were in a you know position where like I was like whatever yeah there's no price tag on good memories yeah and I went and we had the best time and yeah we have stories from that weekend and being able to support my friends in unique ways I think is really what what's the point that's the whole point you're a good friend I try yeah yeah I try I'm um you know prepping the bridesmaid budget right now everybody I know is getting married so you know how every year I have a new year's resolution around finances oh I have one two for 2026 new year new opportunity to get our money right and part of that is having a bank that isn't just a place to park our cash but something that actually works for us exactly and that's where our sponsor SoFi Plus comes in SoFi Plus is a premium membership that pulls everything together banking investing and financial planning all in one place with qualifying activities SoFi Plus members can unlock a thousand dollars or more in annual value that value comes from things like five percent cash back at grocery stores or an investment match for your IRA oh my favorite one is the unlimited one-on-one sessions with SoFi Wealth financial planners SoFi Plus is a great way to get more for your money and you can get started for just ten dollars a month go to SoFi.com slash Tiger Plus that's SoFi.com slash Tiger Plus and now back to our show I saw one of your videos recently talking about how to gently turn down being a bridesmaid because those price tags really rack up when you're talking about cost of flights now and then cost of like travel and food and accommodations and all that stuff I just don't get why you would want to be a bridesmaid at every single wedding like there are only a small handful of people that I would agree to be a bridesmaid for because I know how much it sucks like being a bridesmaid sucks you spend a bunch of money on a fugly dress that you're never gonna be able to wear again probably a ugly pair of shoes to match with it so you can all be in theme you you know I've had some great friends by the way who have covered some of those costs and who cover glam the day of whatever but like in many cases the bride and groom don't cover that and if I'm paying for all of that then I got to pay for the flight to wherever you're trying to get married because my friends are all scattered across the country and you know heaven forbid it's a destination wedding then they've got to pay for hotel they've you know what all of this stuff yeah like that is thousands of dollars and that's just the wedding not to mention the engagement party the bachelorette party the bridal shower I didn't have an engagement party or bridal shower because I was like this is so overkill I want to do this but like it's expensive and if someone is going to make that ask of me I just asked myself like would I be comfortable venmoing this person five grand and if the answer is no I'm not coming or I'm not going to be a bridesmaid at least I'll come be a guest at your wedding if it's like fun and I like like you I'll send a gift but it's roughly you know in many cases a couple thousand dollars yeah is there a good script that people can use to gently let down or you know I'm like I can't be your bridesmaid yeah like what would you say I know you're obsessed with me yeah don't start that way actually so I would do it this way Um, I would say something like, Hey Jean, absolutely love you. So happy for you. Congratulations on getting engaged. I'm really excited for your big day. I know you mentioned you wanted to have a bachelorette party in Cabo. You were going to have the engagement party in New York and you were going to have a destination wedding in Portugal. It's going to be great. Great. Can't wait for you to come Vivian. Um, if I can be completely candid, I've got some big financial goals coming up. Uh, and right now these are my financial constraints. My budget for all of this is X, Y, Z, whatever my budget might be. And then I would say that said, I don't want any of your special moments to be limited by me. Let me know what I should prioritize and, or I'm happy to take a step back and support you in other ways. So if you then come back and say, Hey, it's actually not that deep to come to the engagement party. It's mostly going to be family. And my mom and dad are inviting a bunch of people. You don't have to come great. That saves me a flight that saves me a hotel. Now I have more budget for your bachelorette and your wedding. In some cases I told friends, I was like, don't come to the bachelorette. I'd rather you just come to the wedding. Great. In another case, you could come back and say, totally understand. Like it's really important for me to like, have you there for my bachelorette party. Can I help cover some of these costs? That's something a bride, I can do. And it is something that I have offered to people. So it's a bit of a give and take. You both have to be level-headed, reasonable people. I want to be transparent, but Jean also has to be understanding and decide what is more valuable to her. Or Jean could just be like, totally hear you really understand. Um, if that is the case, I don't want to change my plans, but I would still love for you to attend the wedding as a guest. Yeah. And have you standing up there with, like, don't worry about, don't worry about coming to anything. I love you. And I want you to be there. These are very mature conversations and also take a bit of prep work too. As the bridesmaid, like you have to know what your budget is, you know, you have to know what you can and can't spend. And like, you can't just pull that number out of thin air. Like you have to, it has to be rooted in you doing the work. I think at the end of the day, what we're forgetting is these conversations, the underlying red thread isn't money. It's do you love your friend? And I have this script and shared it with so many people. And you know what happens? Some of the brides go full bridezilla and they're like, how dare you? You don't prioritize me. But it's like, girl, you never loved your friend. Yeah. You loved being a show pony. You love standing up there with the lights and the cameras all on you. You wanted this to be about you. You never cared about your friend. You never, for my bachelorette party, I sent out a survey monkey. Is that like so lame by the way? Like it's kind of cute, but I sent out a survey monkey. That was like, tell me your name. By the way, this is an anonymous survey. It will only be seen by me. Like the other bridesmaids, the maid of honor, the person planning, nobody will see this. What weekends are you available? So that was really easy. People just check their calendar. How much would you like to spend on your, on the bachelorette party? What is your vibe? Are you trying to party? Are you trying to chill? Are you trying to do a little bit of both? What kind of setting would you like it to be in? So like major city. And I picked like places that I wanted to go. Vegas. Did I want to go to a beach? So maybe like Miami, we could do in Miami or maybe do an Austin or Nashville, which are classic. Um, and I went through this whole exercise because I wanted to make sure that no one felt constrained by money. And I have friends who work as pro bono, like attorneys. And I have friends who are, sorry guys, soul sucking consultants who make a ton of money. And they're at the big three, whatever. And they make a ton of money and they don't have the same budget. Yeah. But I still wanted them to feel comfortable on that trip. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses, set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. So you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to worry about You can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. I love how you basically did like user research. No, literally. For your bachelorette. And you made it anonymous. I said, please provide feedback. Yeah. But you know what's so funny? Every girl that was invited to my bachelorette, as they started to plan their own bachelorettes, sent out the same survey monkey. And I was like, yeah, okay. So I'm a trendsetter. You're like, I am an influencer. Yeah, I really, you have been influenced. Hey guys, let's talk about investing. Not stocks, but investing in yourself and investing in Tiger Sisters Podcast. Help us help you by subscribing to the Tiger Sisters Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. When you subscribe to a show like Tiger Sisters Podcast, you're investing in the future of that show and you're also investing in yourselves. Also, we're launching a newsletter soon. So sign up with the link in the description to get more money, power, and love right now. And now back to the show. So Vivian, there's this idea of the freedom number, also known as the amount of money someone would need to invest to live their ideal life. I call it the FU number. Freedom number, FU number, whichever one. Let's talk about the idea of calculating this number. Do you think people underestimate how powerful it is to actually put a number on financial freedom? And what is your FU number? So my FU number, and it's so funny, the last time I shared this on a podcast, people were like aghast until I did the math. You're like, let's work backwards here. Yeah, let's work back here. Sure, okay. My FU number is $25 million. Reason being, at a very conservative 4% return, that returns a million bucks a year. If I can't live for a million bucks a year, like what am I doing? Like what could I possibly be doing? No. Think about it, right? Wait, and then so this FU number is like if you have $25 million in the bank. Not in the bank, invested. Invested. So in a brokerage and across all of your different things. But the way you calculate it is you picture your perfect year. Then you divide by 0.04, which represents that conservative 4% return. And you're going to get a bigger number. And that's the number that you're going to want to have invested. And the reason why I think. Think about it this way, is because at a million dollars, I would be able to comfortably cover my mortgage. I will likely be raising children in an incredibly high cost of living major metro. Let's call it two kids to be conservative. If I end up with one, I'm still probably very happy and I don't need the second one. But if I have two, what does that look like? They're probably going to private school. I went to public school, but I also grew up in a really nice school district. That my parents bought the smallest house in the best school district so I could go there. But in major cities, sometimes it's the luck of the draw. You may not necessarily be in a school district that you feel very strongly about. It's a private school, super expensive. Especially at the beginning of their life. You're hiring a full-time nanny that can help. Especially if both parents are working parents, which we are. Which we would be. I'm not pregnant, guys. I don't know why I used the present tense verb for that. But like. A full-time nanny in a place like New York City, that's 135 Gs a year. You are literally paying someone's salary with benefits, by the way. Let's say I'd also like to go on vacation. I'd also like to go out to eat. I'd also probably like to take care of my parents. It all costs money. It all costs money. And I'm working taxes into that too. And so I think 25 mil is my number. I think it was really helpful for me to be able to visualize that. Because I knew how much money I was going to make. I knew how much money I was going to make. I knew how much further I had to run. I am very much someone who, when I'm like in the gym, I need to know how much further I have to go. Yeah. Like when I Peloton, some people hide the bar of how much time is left on the workout. Absolutely not. That bar needs to be seen at all times. That bar is the only reason I can continue. Yeah. Okay. When I do like Barry's workout, like I love it when they say, okay, 60 seconds left. Because then I can count it down. You can do anything for 60 seconds. Like, yeah. But when they're like, oh, countdown, five, four. I'm like, yes. Because I can do anything for five seconds. Yeah. But like, I need to know how much further I have to go. Yeah. In the same way, like even when I'm like working out with a trainer or something and I'm lifting really heavy and I'm like, sometimes my trainer, because she'll try to like squeeze extra reps out of me. She's a great trainer, obviously. But like, I'll be on rep like 10 and I'm wondering, is this a 12 or a 15? I'm like, how many more? Yeah, yeah. and she'll think and if it's 12 I'm like hell yeah if it's 15 I'm like I got a ways to go if it's 20 I'm cooked but like having an fu number is the same benchmarking process that I find personally is very helpful to me if you're someone who swipes away the tracker maybe it won't be as helpful for you but I want to see how much further I have to go and I still got a ways to go so so for this the 25 million the fu number does it include both liquid and illiquid assets so does it include the equity value of your house even if you haven't like completely paid the mortgage off it would have to be assets that are actively able to throw off like gains yeah the alternative so you wouldn't count a house in that then you can because you can borrow against the house right however the borrowing against also gets very dicey yeah because if you borrow and you get a little bit underwater on things you might owe some money back then again you get a little tricky if we want to keep things simple I would say have it be assets that are actually going to throw off interest you know cash any sort of gains that you're going to be able to extract yeah so house yes car no I feel like unless you are buying one of like the six mclarens they made this year your car is not an investment right those supercars the only people that have access to even purchase them aren't considering them as investments but they may double in value because people are dying to get them yeah no one is dying for your base model lexus okay toyota corolla cross hybrid right literally right like nobody is dying for that yeah if you buy a new car as soon as you whip it off the lot yeah down ten percent just immediately just because you touched it that's your car now down ten percent in the first three to five years that's generally where you're going to see the most depreciation and by year five that car could be worth like half of what you paid for it yeah unless there's some freak scenario of there's some sort of shortage and like now used car prices are going up like I understand those scenarios occur but I never think about a car as an investment so what's your take on leasing versus buying cars what do you do I don't have a car at all because chopper only chopper only uh no oh my god I've actually never been in a helicopter I don't like the idea of being in a flying death rock um but I am someone who is very much like cost-benefit analysis I live in Miami full-time I live on the beach so like I can walk a lot of places but also I'm thinking about how often am I going to be how often would it actually benefit me to drive somewhere and then I think what would that lease cost for the year what would the insurance on that cost what would the gas or the electricity to charge it cost what would the maintenance on it cost what like all of these things right yeah like I'm Asian so I don't do this but like people even get their car washed did you know that my husband made a comment about a car wash the other day and I was like first off that's what the rain is for like we didn't do that growing up he was like you've never been through a car wash and I'm like no also you know a car wash is like 125 dollars what yeah well some of them are they start at like 35 to 40 dollars you know rain is free car wash rain is free yeah I think we have to acknowledge rain is free and that is like my parents would deliberately park our cars outside of the garage when it rained so they would get washed I just it's it's actually really funny so between the two of us so I don't have a car either yeah I just because I leased a car back in the day I returned it after three years with less than 5,000 miles you weren't using it I was barely using it think about the times that you would want to drive are you gonna go out to dinner with friends are you gonna have a drink you're not gonna drive home that's not safe or oh I guess I could like take my car to the Palladio studio but then either I have to valet it or I have to circle the block for it or I have to go to the Palladio studio and I have to go to the Palladio studio and I have to go to the Palladio studio and I have to go to the Palladio studio four times trying to find a parking spot I'm just gonna Uber like it's fine and for me I think when you're thinking about leasing or buying or just taking a ride share it's ultimately comes down to your use it comes down to what you're trying to solve for I have a friend who moved to Texas for his job and he leased a car it's a beautiful car he definitely doesn't drive it enough so probably shouldn't have but the reason he leased is there's a non-zero cost to it and I think that's why I'm like a zero chance that he might get transferred to the LA office or the New York office or the London office or like whatever he wants to have flexibility great you don't have to figure out how to sell your car but if you are buying a car that's like a Toyota Sienna you have two kids that have to go to soccer practice and hockey camp and all that stuff and you know you're going to drive this car into the ground maybe you buy it it depends on who you are there's no such thing is the perfect answer for anybody it is up to you and your lifestyle my lifestyle is I am a hermit until I'm not and when I'm not there's no chance I'm trying to be driving because let's be honest for this podcast I rocked up six minutes in advance of when we were supposed to start filming can you imagine if I had to find parking I'd be spinning the block spinning the block being like hey guys I can't find a parking spot help me like it'd be so embarrassing an uber dropped me off it was really easy but okay so speaking of of being Asian so recently our mom said to us she was like basically we we have this conversation with our mom sometimes we're like hey like we're doing well like we we can be a little bit looser with the purse strings and she's like are you sure you guys are doing well because I feel like when I think of someone who's doing really well they have multiple cars they have multiple houses they own multiple houses and she's like I don't see you guys doing either of those things yeah literally she says that to us so then I'm I mean sometimes we we get into the conversation sometimes we don't but um speaking of owning houses what is your take on owning houses for millennials and gen z and having that be um I don't know like an indicator of like you're doing well versus versus renting you do not have to own a home to be doing well financially but is it a good investment should we still aspire to it is that something gene did you not just hear me soapbox it matters who you are and your lifestyle yeah so I think something that people forget is they like buy the house and they're so excited and they're like oh crap I'm actually still very much in the growing phase of my life you bought a house that was too small now you got three kids what are you gonna do because let me tell you right now it's cute that they share a bedroom it's not cute when they're 15 they're not gonna want to do that um oh you got a new job opportunity somewhere else guess what you have to own a home for minimum five to seven years for all of those closing and one-time costs to make sense okay also by the way think you're forgetting property taxes homeowners association if you live in a condo building it's called common charges um there's maintenance fees we showed up back to our apartment after we went to Japan for the holidays last year oh whole hvac system broken good thing I didn't buy a Birkin in Japan because I'm gonna spend 10 g's fixing this and I'm not even really going to enjoy it so like it's all about you I think you can be financially successful without owning a home however I will very much admit for so many people your mom included owning a home is still a marker of the American dream and I think that is okay if you want it to be a part of your American dream but it doesn't have to be yeah I will say I think your mom might be under the spell of looking rich versus being rich right I can't comment on that legally you're right you're right you're right you're like my mom will watch this and we will get into a fight I can't comment um mom she said it about you not us right um but I think it's all about like actually understanding what somebody values because in the case of so many immigrants I do find that they their perceived wealth or like their understanding of wealth is only based on what they've seen in the movies and media and I think it's also important to understand that the more truly truly wealthy people I've met and at this point I've met a number of billionaires I've met people who are very much high high hundreds of millions whatever they don't have these kinds of rules the way that the average person the average earner is like this is what it means to be rich or wealthy they don't ascribe to any this is what it means they're like it means whatever the hell I want it to mean and so two notes one I think we can tell mom that just because you guys have not chosen to ascribe to some traditional markers of wealth building doesn't necessarily mean that you guys aren't doing well financially at your own risk say that your own risk that's not advice she knows um but two I would also encourage you to ask yourself why you feel so comfortable being looser with the purse strings there's an opportunity cost everything I think you guys are at the beginning of a very lucrative very illustrious career, would those dollars be better invested somewhere else? So maybe I'm playing both sides. These are good questions. Maybe I'm still hoping to be invited to family dinner night. Check responses, setup required, compatibility, and availability varies 18 plus. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99%. 9% of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. Awesome. So Vivian, to wrap this up, we have a fun little speed round and it's a game called Would You Rather, but Rich Girl Edition. Okay. So would you rather have a cleaning lady come every single day or have 10 Birkin bags in your closet right now? Cleaning lady every single day. I don't even have to think about that question. Hmm. A Birkin is just a bag. I can literally, over there, trash bag. The rain is just a car wash. Literally. I can literally, you see that trash bag right there? I can use that trash bag and carry more stuff than a Birkin can carry, actually. I'll hoist it over my back. I don't care. But to have a housekeeper come every single day would save me so much time. And I think right now in my position in my life, my moment, this era, time is the most valuable thing I have because it's the only thing I can't buy more of. Hell yeah. Vivian, would you rather never have an avocado toast in your life ever again or never be able to order food delivery again? I don't even like avocado toast. So go ahead and put that Uber Eats, DoorDash, Postmates right into my pocket. I love getting delivery. There is something so, again, it's back to the time thing. There is something so satisfying. You know what I'll do? And this just tells you about what my week looks like. I will be halfway through like a treadmill workout or a Peloton class or whatever, and I'll have already pre-teed up what I want for dinner. And I've calculated, like circumnavigated the location of the restaurant with how much time is left on my workout. And I will be like, I know if I order right now, the moment I am done my workout, the food will have arrived. Instead of having to, have gone to the restaurant and back, I got to work out. I got to do something really nice for myself. Physically, mentally, emotionally, working out is good for you. Moving your body is good for you. But also, there's a little delicious poke bowl on the way. Like, you know what I mean? I have something to look forward to. So I love takeout. So the last, would you rather. Would you rather retire at 40 with a modest lifestyle or work until 65, but be extremely wealthy? 65. You want to know? Yeah, because if I retired at 40, which by the way, I think I will be able to do, I'd be bored out of my gourd. Like, I don't think if I'm transparent, I will ever retire. Like, even when I've hit my FU number, even when I'm good to go, I just think I'm going to down shift on things that I currently say yes to because I need the money. And then I'll be doing more volunteer work. I'm going to be doing a lot more speaking events for free. Maybe I will, you know, build a curriculum with the local New York public high schools to teach financial literacy. I don't know. These are like pipe dreams I have. But like, I don't think work is something that I want to give up. I have the luxury of that. But also, I think that like, getting to do something versus having to do something wakes you up in a very different way. So I'd rather wait and have those years to be doing something meaningful. But then I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't And also you're telling me you're guaranteeing me an extremely lavish retirement. Hell yeah. Thank you so much, Vivian, for sitting down with us for this Tiger Sisters episode. For everyone who is watching or listening, where can they find your books and where can they find your socials? Thank you guys so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And I can't wait to meet our Tiger Moms soon. Come over for dinner. I'll come over for dinner. But you guys can all find me as Your Rich BFF across social media. And if you are interested in getting one of my books, they're both New York Times bestsellers. The first one is titled Rich AF and the second one is titled Well Endowed. You can get them wherever books are sold and check them out. Yay. Thank you. Of course. Thanks for having me. If you made it this far, congratulations on investing in yourself. Now why not take it one step further and subscribe to the show? By subscribing to Tiger Sisters Podcast, you're investing in the future of our show. And you're also investing in yourself. So please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Whether it's Spotify, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. And we'll see you next time.