Stop Asking to Be Helped. Start Asking to Be Healed.

0:05 Speaker 1 A teenager with an unfiltered phone has more access to explicit content in 5 minutes than every powerful person throughout history had combined. September is Recovery Awareness Month, and here on Temple Bound, we're giving it 3 full episodes from three completely different angles. 0:23 First, a married couple tells their own story first hand. A marriage that nearly ended over this exact addiction and the years long road that turned it into something neither of them would trade. Then we're going to hear a Bishop who's heard more confessions than he can count. 0:39 He's going to transform the way that you hear one word forever pride. And then lastly, a therapist who's watched pornography addiction destroy men for years, and he will tell you it was never about the pornography. It was about the pain nobody ever taught them to name. 0:56 So whatever you or someone you love is walking through right now, there's a way back and it runs straight into the arms of the savior. Stick with us this month. It's some of the most honest work we've put on the show. Shaden Bertanoli didn't set out to become one of the leading voices of men in pornography recovery. 1:13 He got there because he kept showing up to too many funerals, LDS men gone to suicide long before any of them had ever set across from him. So that's what shaped how he sees every man now who does show up to his office. And his conclusion is that pornography was never the real problem. 1:30 Pain is. Pornography was just where that pain went to hide. This month on Temple Bound, we're focusing on addiction recovery and we are hyper focusing on pornography addiction. And Shaden is opening up with an idea that I haven't stopped thinking about what the Temple initiatory ordinance actually is. 1:49 It's not just a tradition. It's a wound being washed, anointed and covered. So if you've ever felt stuck or love someone who is, listen to this one till the end. Shayden, welcome to Temple Bound. This episode is one that I have been so excited about. 2:05 Would you mind introducing yourself and setting the table for our discussion about who you are, what you do, and why you're so passionate about it? 2:13 Speaker 2 OK. So, well, First off, thanks for having me. My name is Shayden. My last name is Italian. It's Bert Noli. I don't expect anybody to really learn it, but Shaden Bertoli grew up in Utah and I'm a father of four, have a beautiful wife named Shelly and I do therapy for a living at this point and love helping men. 2:35 So I specialize I, I tell people I love men and they always get a good laugh out of it, you know, but I, I specialize in, in men's mental health. I love helping men liberate themselves. I am AI have a strong passion for anyone who is stuck and if they're stuck, I mean no matter what situation I'm in in life if driving wherever it could be if someone stuck my my compassion turns on pretty quickly to want to try to get them out of it. 3:02 So obviously for a lot of men, especially within our awesome religion, they they often struggle with pornography and so I have I have some specialties in that for sure in helping men liberate themselves there. But but yeah, overall love helping men and I would say to answer like why I'm passionate though, is I, I've just lost, honestly, I've lost too many men. 3:29 I know this sounds, it's kind of a deep, let's get deep real quick. But yeah, please. I, when I, when I became a therapist, I never thought that my buddy who is a pediatric doctor would have like less deaths than me when it, when it came to my career, right. 3:46 Like I asked him the other day, I'm like, dude, how many, how many people have you actually lost? You know, like on the table or whatever. He's like 1, but it really wasn't even mine. I'm like, you haven't lost anybody. And like he said, no. And I, he's an ER pediatric doctor. And I'm like, I can't believe that. 4:03 And I said, I, there's, I've lost like more than five men who to suicide and, and, and that was years ago that those numbers kept coming up. And I'm like, man, like this, these men just need help. They need help. And, and my, I have an amazing hero of a father who left a legacy for me. 4:20 And I, I come across pretty masculine in my stature, but yet I definitely have a deep sense of, of empathy and compassion for people and it, it just lends well. I've just found that it's, it's somewhat of a gift for me to be able to help men and connect with them pretty quickly and to not be what I think a lot of men would see as a typical type of therapist, if you will. 4:39 So yeah, there's there's many reasons my passions run deep, but that's just one of the one of the few, so or one of the many. 4:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a great opening, you know, introduction. I feel, you know, compelled to just highlight to the audience that you are often seen as one of the top experts in helping men overcome pornography addiction. But I love the way you framed it because it's not Pornography becomes this like focal point and and you understand that it's about liberating men and helping men become who they were divinely created to become. 5:15 And the adversary is working very aggressively to attack what it is to be a man. And so there's different tools that he has, and one of his most effective tools is pornography. And so when you talk about losing those, those men in your life, it sounds like, you know, you're really talking, like you said, about liberating them, helping them become free because they're, they're not just shackled, but they're suffering. 5:39 And there's this one barrier called pornography and, and all of that. So how do you, how do you help people today? Like what do you do now that helps helps liberate men? 5:49 Speaker 2 I'll give one word and it is pain. It's pain. The, the thing, excuse me, the thing that keeps men most stuck is pain. If I had to say that, you know, think about most men, they, they grow up when they, when they feel pain, what are they taught to do right? 6:08 It's it sounds so cliche and I hate to come across that way, but it's just the facts. Like most men, when they feel pain, they suppress it. They keep it down and, and over time you get really good at just ignoring it. You, you get really good at actually, not like just putting it away, but yet it's still there. 6:25 And one of the deepest pains that most men deal with that they, I I call it the invisible pain that they rarely have words for in my office is in is loneliness. And it's ironic. The older someone is, the harder it is for them to say. I just feel so lonely. 6:42 It's me who often says like I we talk and and then we finally get into it and I'll be like, dude, no, I I just think you, you just appear so lonely to me. Like who, who really knows you? Like on a scale of 1 to 10, who like, who knows you at like a 5 or a six? 6:59 And it's just so common, right where they're like, I don't know. And. 7:04 Speaker 1 What, what drives that? What drives men feeling lonely 'cause I mean, I'm guessing a lot of these guys that that you see as lonely have families, have, yeah, they're around people. They're members of the church. They're in the congregation smiling every Sunday like nothing's wrong. 7:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. 7:18 Speaker 1 So how? 7:19 Speaker 2 Most of them are trying. Most of them have have been fighting so long in their life to earn love. And that's a topic we could go on for hours and hours. But so many of them sadly have internalized false doctrine that love is earned. 7:34 And so in this attempt to earn love over a lifetime, they, they figure out how. The problem is it wasn't really love they were earning. They were earning approval. And they did that through achievement. So most men are seeking approval all the time from those around them, from from everyone. 7:52 And they do it through the lens of achievement. And so they're achieving and achieving and achieving. And it's this treadmill they never get to get off because somewhere in their early childhood, early life, somehow the, the, the, their brain internalized the doctrine of love falsely that, that, that it's earnable, that you get it like you have to get it. 8:13 Therefore, when you make mistakes, when you, you then lose it. And so you're constantly in your bank account trying to figure out where how acceptable am I? How lovable am I actually? And this is all subconscious, This is going on deeply and where it actually some comes from most of the time is a is, is is a lack of attunement. 8:33 So I use that word a lot. There's a lot of as I use but when men lack attunement, which means if you if you hear the word, it sounds very similar to atonement. Atonement is is when Christ saw into US deeply. I, I think you've heard that play on words with intimacy right into me. 8:50 See like intimacy is this into me seeing and a lot of boys actually stop receiving atonement or being seen into 6-7 years old, you know, 8 years old. 9:07 Teenage years often get even more rough where for, for whatever reason it is, it's parents or others around them have really struggled to take the time to really ask the harder questions and the deeper questions to get into this child. Often times it's been so long since they've done that or so the intensity of how much they've asked about that child hasn't been enough over time that when it now comes time to ask an intense question about what's going on inside of my kid, the kid doesn't know. 9:37 He's terrified to answer too, because we don't do this. Like we don't talk like this, no. And so now he gives these brushed answers and just really quick answers that that keep him somewhat more hidden. And meanwhile he's mono Imano with Satan inside because he's not nobody. 9:52 He's not really being known on the outside and it's a losing game. Not to mention if love is earned and the kid doesn't even know it. I didn't know it. I didn't know that I had internalized that. Then then if you relapse, if you're into, if you struggle with pornography, which we'll get into in a minute, then what is that in your, in your, in your loss, your wins and losses like, well, I just lost again. 10:14 Therefore my love ability just went down again. And now this energy's got to come into me that I've got a, I've got a man up and I've got to toughen up to actually achieve more to compensate for what I just lost. Meanwhile, that blessed awesome kid doesn't realize that pornography was never the problem to begin with. 10:35 His pain was, and pornography was the solution to his pain. That became a problem, but it's not the problem. It became a problem, but it originated as a solution to inner pain that he didn't know about yet. 10:56 And that's the work. When a man heals his pain, he heals his desire, his appetite for for other things that would sooth it. And go figure, Jesus is up there saying, when can I be it? When when will can I be that that person who soothes your pain? 11:14 I want to I, I say this all the time. Sorry, I know I'm going but no, this is all the time. 11:18 Speaker 1 Right, this is perfect. 11:20 Speaker 2 OK, because Jesus, I say this a lot where I, I, I stood in, I stood in church the other day and spoke and I said, I want everybody to think about and I kind of weigh on the scales, the amount of time you've spent in your lifetime in sin versus the amount of time in your lifetime you've spent in pain. 11:40 And I said, I don't care how sinful of a person you are, there is no way you've spent more time in sin than you have in pain. That goes physical pain, relationship pain, emotional pain, physical sickness type pain. 11:56 Like, I mean, pain is just the universal experience of human beings and what we choose to do to soothe. It means is all the difference in the world. And the word Savior has a lot to do with pain. Like a savior saves you in pain. 12:12 So then I'll ask, so how many of you, when you think of the atonement of Jesus Christ, truly believe or think about that he suffered for not only your sin, but your pain? And he says it all the time, but I don't think we often really utilize him for our in our pain as often as we do in our sin. 12:34 I think we're very we're often more a lot more quick, if you will, or or or yeah, quick to jump to him when we sin. And yet, but when we're in pain, we find other sources such as our cell phone. Right now our cell phone is man, I think ensues so much pain. 12:50 The problem is it doesn't. As soon as you put that thing down, it's instantaneous return of pain. Like that's what people are not realizing. So it doesn't matter if it's pornography on the phone, whatever that thing is, it's soothing. Your pain becomes your savior if it does. That's just how it works and how it. 13:06 Speaker 1 Works and if false savior is always going to leave things lacking, if not perpetuate the problem it sounds and it feels like it feels like them even knowing they're in pain is probably part of the journey. I I mean, they know they're in pain, but like you said, a lot of this is subconscious. 13:23 They're driven. Listen, I relate a lot to what you're saying here. I can't remember when it was for me, when I realized that part of my drive for success was trying to earn love and be seen as someone who could do great things so that they would love me. 13:38 And I think that's a common male like experience. So when how do you help people like discover that they do you? Is that a big part of it for you that you're helping men find that they are in pain? Because I'm guessing once they know that they're in pain, they can really see that as the problem, not a problem like pornography, that it's easier for them to see that connection to the Savior and understand that he's not just for sin, but for pain. 14:03 And I would say lastly, I thought that I had when you were talking about, you know, pornography being a problem and not the problem, is this idea that when we go to the Savior after, you know, falling in sin, whether it's pornography or something else that's trying to soothe the pain or just going to him, it feels like almost like in vain. 14:23 Like, can you help me overcome this problem? I'm such a bad person. I feel horrible. It's almost like if we're not careful when we go to the Savior, we could actually do it from a unhealthy place of shame versus like understanding that like, yeah, he'll help you with that. 14:39 And let's get to the core issue. Is that pain. So going back to my question, is it hard for you to help them see that they're in pain or is that something that that is pretty aware and then that's how you draw them to the Savior. Tell me a little bit about what that process looks like. 14:51 Speaker 2 Usually it's not hard to see, to help them see that they have pain. Usually. Usually just discussing it is, is very sensible and logical. It doesn't. It doesn't honestly even take a therapist to be able to break it down enough to say, who did you turn to when you were little? 15:10 And when they say nobody, OK, what if that was your own son? Do you think your son would be in pain? Would that be painful? And it's like so simple that way. And there's many other different types of pain. What is more difficult though, is for for them to allow themselves to be hugged in it. 15:32 And I mean literally hug sometimes in my office. That's why I love working with men too. I can give them a hug when it's when it's appropriate, when it's when it's timing. But they to be held and hugged, if you will, in the presence of someone who wants to give them space to actually feel the pain. 15:51 Cause thinking of the pain is one thing, but to actually let yourself act, to experience some of it again, to go to those hard places, that's where most men have trained themselves. Like I don't do that, man. I don't want to do that. That's not what I do. And ironically, I use that word hug very intentionally because it really summarizes a lot of what I've experienced with my men. 16:12 Like if I wrote a book about it, I could almost call it hug on the front. Like because that's what they always they needed. I can say like, how did you just how many, how many times in your life did you just need, did you just need a hug and not a lecture and not advice and not counsel? 16:29 Like you just need it to be held. And it, it brings tears to many men's eyes because they feel it. And now they're now they're 40, now they're 25, you know, whatever. And they, they just long to be able to be so vulnerable to say what their pain is, even if it includes pornography and just be held in it. 16:46 So to get where I want to say to you too is they then come to the Savior like you said, not so much in vain, but with that fix it mentality and achievement mentality of what do I have to do? 16:58 Speaker 1 Oh, I see. 16:59 Speaker 2 And and the and the savior that I know is like, hey, hey, will hold on, hold on, will hold up, be quiet. Will hold on. Like, can I just give you a hug? You're suffering. I'm so sorry for how lonely you've been. 17:17 Can I please hold you right. And that man, that man is more willing to say I want to change. I want to, I want to give my life forward with that experience of being held by him. 17:33 And that's where most men are. The, the, the, the, the idea to do that, to let go, to be held by him is so difficult because it often hasn't happened in the mortal in the mortal sphere. And so to allow themselves to try to experience that in an immortal sphere, so to speak, is very, very difficult. 17:50 But it is the way. And that's why I love the temple. In the temple, there are ways that that can happen in beautiful ways. And you don't have to be a perfect man to attend the temple to experience that. And I just want to say to any woman who is listening to this, I'm sorry and we're not trying to neglect you. 18:08 This has everything to do with your experience too. It's just that I definitely focus a lot more in in the men's experience here. Well, I don't think there's pain too. 18:16 Speaker 1 Yes, there's definitely love that you say that. I think the reason we're especially for this month, we're talking about pornography. And I think I think there's probably nothing more that would soothe and heal the the woman in the the marriage than having the man heal. 18:32 Like, yeah, heal people, heal people, hurt people, hurt people. And to your point, I think there's, there's something really powerful about this idea of, of understanding how men operate because even, you know, the woman has, has sons, you know, the women have husbands, they have fathers. 18:48 This, this is a huge, this is for all of us. It's a, it's a way for all of us, like a rising tide to understand how we can overcome these, these challenges by coming to the savior and even overcome with the wrong word. But just coming to the savior in a way that from a place of knowing my, my question to you. 19:07 And this is a little bit selfish, but I have 4 boys. So when you talk about that pain being something that gets embedded when they're young, what can we as parents do for our our sons, our grandsons? What can we do to help them as best we can not develop the pain of that gets developed early in loneliness or achievement. 19:27 Speaker 2 Yeah, witness, witness the pain. You know, we have all these covenants, these beautiful covenants we make in the temple and they each they have names, you know, the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, law of chastity. And our baptismal covenant doesn't necessarily have such a specific name. 19:43 You know, it is our first covenant that we make. It is we take upon us the name of the of our Savior. But in a lot of ways I see, I see our first covenant we ever make as the law of the law of witness. Because he does say, like when you take upon you my name, I ask you to mourn with those that mourn, and I ask you to please stand with those who need to be stood with. 20:06 And to be with those who need being with that's what it says. That's our covenant. Nowhere in there's that say take away the morning to to to give advice, to counsel. And we, we struggle with that to be with and to witness people in their in their pain. 20:22 And that's what we just felt together when I said that that that Christ would just want to hold that man and say, come here. Can I please just love you. And and so with our own sons, that's what they need. They need, they need men who are willing to ask harder questions. I would say my, my sons when they, you know, they, it was just the other day they went and did something with a lot of other, other guys. 20:45 And it was they, it was just the other day they went and did some, some fun activities with a lot of other guys and they, and they asked if they could stay out late. We don't do sleepovers, but they, they always said, yeah, you can stay out a little bit later this time. And so they came back and, and they went to bed in the next morning, though it was Saturday morning. 21:04 They got up and I, I said, hey, boys, come here real quick. They came in and I said, hey, how was last night? And I, and I do think some dads even struggle to ask that. How was last night? And then their kid might say it's good. 21:19 And my kid said the same thing too. It's fun. He said it was fun. I said, OK, tell me what happened. What what went on? Tell me about what you guys do. And it's just open. What'd you guys do? And they told me what they did. And there was a few things that happened that were a little bit interesting. And then I love to ask, I love asking this question, like, is there anything that happened that maybe you don't want to talk about? 21:41 Is there anything that happened that it's kind of hard to talk about? Anybody show you anything? And instead of, instead of waiting for my sons to be courageous enough to tell me the hard thing, I have to be the more courageous one to ask the hard thing. 21:58 I'm the adult, I'm the leader. I have to lead them into those conversations. I can't be naive and think that if my son is with 10 other boys, every one of them has a cell phone, that maybe one or two of those kids have 0 restrictions and there's a chance that things could happen. There's a chance that things could be seen. 22:15 Hey, funny enough, my do my kids do have a rule that if somebody shows them pornography on their phone, they're allowed to say, oh, let me see. And they take their phone and they're allowed to shatter it on the ground. And I, and I told my sons, I'm like, I will pay for your phone. 22:31 I'll pay for their phone. I said, if you do that, like their parents will have to beg what happened to your phone, bud? And it will have to come out, not promoting violence here, but it is something that I, I, I told my boys. 22:44 Speaker 1 You're promoting taking a stand. You're taking this. You're not showing them how. I think it's more even if they don't do it, it's more about helping them understand. Like if you see it, this is physically, it's a physical manifestation of of how much you want to get away from it. 22:58 Speaker 2 Yeah, he violated you, so you get to do a a little more of a violation that way. 23:02 Speaker 1 So. 23:03 Speaker 2 Anyway, so the to answer your question, I think that we as parents that again, the word is attunement, we need to tune in. We need to actually a lot of the questions I'll say is you'll say if if God himself came to you and said, Hey, can you give me an update on your son? What could I say to him? 23:20 What if I was like, I think he's doing pretty good. Yeah. And Christ could say, OK, like, what does that mean? And I'd be like, I don't know, actually, I just saw him smiling earlier today. And what, and the worst thing that I would ever want to happen is if Christ said, Hey, Shayden, actually Jacoby is he's actually not doing well at all. 23:42 He's he's really struggling. And for me to have been around him, but not with him, you know, that kind of a feel. And so, so again, it's very difficult though, and I'm saying this compassionately to men who are listening because if it's very difficult again, to model what we haven't been given, yes. 23:59 And so if as a man, I haven't been attuned to very well either where other a dad of my own has not really said, Hey, Shayden, how are you doing and what's going on in your life? How are you, what's your relationship with these certain things? How, how are you doing with girls? 24:14 How are you doing in your schooling, other teachers that you really have a difficult time with those specific questions. Then it's, it's, it's not just going to come to me so easily to be like, oh, I'm just going to ask all these really detailed questions with my kids. Yeah. But now that you've heard it, you can be more intentional and you can learn anything. 24:32 You can learn to do it. And I'm telling you the reward of, of stealing a secret from your kid is one of the best thievery we could ever do. It's the best thievery we could ever do is stealing secrets from your kids because secret we're sick is our secrets. 24:48 And our kids have so much opportunity now to have secrets. And so our, our, our ability to assume that there's got to be things we don't know. And then our willingness to ask is so it's, it's of the utmost importance. And, and your gentleness in doing so is huge. 25:04 I guess that's a whole other topic. But if you have done things in the past where your kid spoke to you and actually opened up and your reaction would tell him that he probably shouldn't do that again. 25:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. 25:19 Speaker 2 You need to own that as a parent. You need to go to them now before you ask them a question and say, hey, you know, even if it was two years ago, two years ago, you said that thing to me and I absolutely lost it on you. And that's not OK. 25:36 And I'm really sorry. And I promise you that if you will tell me when you tell me things, I will. I will not act that way. I have, you have my word. That's what a lot, especially boys, but girls too, that's what our kids need. If they have sometimes, even if they've experienced it even just once, even one time seeing their parent take something they gave them in, in, in in a bit of a secret or a sacred way and it being thrashed around afterward, yeah, that kid, he'll remember it. 26:05 And the likelihood of him doing it again is very low. 26:07 Speaker 1 You hit a couple of things that are really important for her to highlight. You know, we're only as sick as our secrets. And then this I and then you talked about how to ask these more difficult questions and, and then how to clean up things. It's like there was so much around that I want to dig into because as a parent, you know, most men, I don't think have this modeled. 26:26 I'm guessing this is one of the many great things your dad did in that time was to be able to model that. And so taking someone who hasn't learned how to do that, you said anything can be learned. There's that, there's that part that we do as men. How give me the five step shade and and that's not the way, right? 26:43 Like it's more about who we need to become through the savior and I'm sure the temple will be a good tie in on that. What would you say to a, a, a father or a mother who feels like A, they've they've made it unsafe for their kids in the past? Or B, their kids are a little bit older, maybe they're teenagers or even young adults, and they just never developed that connection and relationship. 27:06 Like what would you say to them who are feeling a little bit more excited about this potential but a little bit despair of like, I don't even know how start? 27:17 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm an inside out kind of guy. So and I and I think that's how the savior works too. What I mean by that is you've got to start inside of you. And this is like really humbling and hard to do as a parent, but you've got to get very honest first and foremost with how you view your child. 27:35 In which state do you see them? Like in which way do you see them? Do you see them as that baby you brought home from the hospital? Just in it like, who needs so much love and innocence? Or over the course of their time, especially in teenage years, have you begun to create labels for your kids where you now see them? 27:57 Oh, he's, he's just, he's just a he's just a jerk. He's just, he's just, he's just ornery all the time. He's just, he's just, he's just like a rebel. And and often times parents don't say these things out loud or he's just a loser. 28:13 He's just, he's broken. Yeah, right. Like these are hard, hard realities. And again, I would say give credit where credit is due. That's Satanic. And so don't, and I say that kindly to anyone listening is he's the one giving you those messages. 28:29 But he's he's so timely that he's giving you those messages right when they make those dumb choices. 28:35 Speaker 1 When they make sense logically. 28:37 Speaker 2 And they make sense. Exactly. Yeah. And so then they, if they happen again and again, because our we all have patterns. So if their pattern of behavior keeps creating this way that you're viewing them in this little tiny way, then guess what? I prompt what two things will happen? 28:52 They will enact that and they will fulfill that. We become who we believe the people closest to us think we are. And again, that's why President Nelson say, know your divine identity, because your Father in heaven sees you as this, not anything less. 29:11 But as parents, we need to check ourselves at the door and see where is my and I always use the heart, where is my heart towards my child. And if that is in a resentful state, it isn't if it's in a in a, in a, the word is objectifying state. And in that I have lost my kids humanity. 29:30 I don't see them as human anymore. I'm seeing as more of as an object who needs fixing, who needs changing, then you have to do your work first to be able to honestly, and I say this kindly again, to repent of that meaning, come to the Savior with that, which is what repentance is, and see if He can't show your child to you the way he sees him or her. 29:53 Speaker 1 That's powerful. 29:54 Speaker 2 Right, and ask for that love towards them. And in that state now, if my heart is now softened, boy watch miracles happened. Come right out of your mouth in words that you've never said, in sentiment you've never shown, and watch your child respond in ways that maybe you've never seen too. 30:12 Why? Because you changed your heart with God towards your kid in a way that you hadn't seen before. 30:18 Speaker 1 Yes, I think now is a great time to talk about temple worship. As you were saying this, you know, is there's so many tie insurance at the temple. But for me as an imperfect parent, the thing that I feel impressed to say more than anything, and this is just for my own benefit, is that healing only can come through the Savior. 30:41 And if, if my tendency is to again, being a man feeling overwhelmed, well, how am I going to change the way I see my child? Like it's like, it's not about that man. It's I'm feeling very strongly to identify that only the savior can change that in me. It's my job to have the agency to look for it and to see it and to want to change it. 31:00 That in the walls of the temple I need to be. I want, not need. I want to be reminded of who, how He sees me and then to feel His love and to pour my heart and soul in that sacred space and in home, up on top of the mountain and back at the bottom of the mountain. 31:20 Just that cycle of going back to get refreshed like mana from heaven, going back and feeling just a measure more of his love. I, I, I know, I believe in transformation shade and I believe that things can happen overnight, but I believe that the Lord allows these things to go on in a process form so that we can become like him. 31:39 And so it goes back to pride for me as a parent, as I'm hearing you talk about this, because labeling my kids is, and I'm sure this is true for all parents, starts with some degree of pride that we hold them in that space for some reason. And it's not. And, and whatever that reason isn't, if it's not for the Savior, it's it's for us. 31:58 And that's what we have to learn to release through giving it to the savior. But he's the only one who can take it. He's the only one who can transform us and help us see our child as he does. It sounds like that's what you're telling people. 32:09 Speaker 2 What I'm saying, yeah, what I'm saying too, is, and it's such a great point as we, we we do unto others as we do to ourself. And so when when we do this with our our own children, it's just a direct reflection on how you likely treat yourself and how you and how you allow Satan to bully you and and to speak to you and what you've, you've actually become somewhat OK with. 32:33 So I asked my man all the time. And it's it's right here on this picture behind me. But if you spoke to me the way you speak to yourself, would I punch you in the face? If you spoke to me the way you speak to yourself, where would our friendship be? Would we even have one? 32:48 When I or would I almost swing at you? And a lot of men, they love that question. They laugh. And like, honestly, yeah, you probably hit me. If if I spoke to you the way I speak to myself, I'm like, I know, man. When's that going to change? Is that really can? Can we change that a little bit? 33:05 Is that how we really drive ourselves through this life? But it's what most men have known. It's what most humans know, not even men. It's all of us. So to the extent that we've gotten in touch with that, it often then takes over into our children, sadly, is that when they keep messing up? Well, our brain has been taught what do we do? 33:22 We we label it, we go hard on it, we, we say harsh things towards it, even if it's just in our own heads. Sometimes it gets out of our mouth towards our children and it's very hurtful. But that's because of the inner work that you've got to do for yourself on how you speak and treat yourself. 33:37 So I think to take this to the temple in preparing for this, I, I, I had, I, I feel like I wanted to share this, but if it needs to be, if it's too much, we can definitely talk about it. But I, I was studying trauma a few years ago and the word trauma, I think is actually very much overused at this point in this, in our, in our social media especially. 34:01 Not everything is traumatic. But what I do love about the word trauma is in the Greek form it means wounded, it's wound, which I love the word wound because a paper cut is a wound and so is a German shepherd taking a chunk out of me, right or so is breaking my arm. Like the the the the spectrum of a wound is massive. 34:20 Speaker 1 Whereas trauma that trauma has like implication of the dog taking the arm off kind of thing. 34:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. So, so I'm studying wound and, and it's neat because my office is in downtown Ogden, UT and I can be to the temple in less than an hour. So I can go to the temple, I can do an initiatory, sit in the celestial room and be back in my office in less than an hour. 34:42 So it's, it's just, oh, wow, I'm so fortunate. And so a few years ago, I've been again studying trauma and, and then this wound idea comes into my head. And as a therapist, I'm, I, you know, I help wounds all the time. And so I go and do an initiatory and I've done, I've, I've already done one round and I'm standing in the the waiting area and I'm looking down and, and I'm looking, I think, man, this sure looks like a, like a hospital. 35:11 And I was like, that's interesting. And then it hit me and I thought, wow, what does any parent do when their child comes to them with an owie? 35:29 Mom, look, I have a cut. What does a parent do? They go through a very beautiful and simple process. They wash it, they anoint it and they cover it. 35:46 And then they give them a kiss on the forehead and say, you're going to be OK. And in that moment, the initiatory took on a meaning to me that I had never seen, that here is God. And he says, come to my home, come to my home. 36:03 But the first thing I'm going to have you do is I'm going to have you freshen up a little bit. I'm going to help you. I'm going to clean you up. You're hurt, you're wounded, you have a lot of wounds that you don't even remember anymore, Will and, and Shaden, there are things in there that you forgot. 36:18 And you don't have to find all of them to have them heal actually. But if you'll come here, I will actually scan your body and I want to wash and anoint and cover you and, and, and prepare you for the next room in my holy house to where I can give you things that are going to be even heavier actually, but are going to empower you. 36:44 But before that, I just want to heal you up a bit. And never in my life did I feel more humbled and more love and as I went and sat in those chairs and continue to do that amazing ordinance to feel that that's a huge part of why he wants us to be there. 37:03 I have the scripture open in front of me. 35913 is one of my favorite scriptures. These are the these are the Nephites who have been in darkness for three days and then the Savior shows up and light is finally there again, which to me is going to the temple like the the lights finally turn on. 37:20 You get to be in there. And he says, Oh, all you that are spared because you were more righteous than they will you not now one return unto me. That's the hug, by the way, return unto me. Please. That doesn't mean to show up and look at me. 37:36 When you think about when a kid comes home from a mission, when he returns home, do we just look at them? No, we run to them. Yeah, I. 37:47 Speaker 1 If I can jump in real quick, please, sorry, please do I, I have to just because I picked up, I picked up my first missionary 4 days ago. So I think it's important just to kind of like give some color to that because I wasn't prepared for how that was going to be. I had no idea. I, I honestly with my son, I was so happy that he was progressing. 38:06 There wasn't this, I didn't think there was this angst or longing. People would say, don't you miss your son? I'm like, totally. And like, I'm so happy that I don't, I don't really like. And it's and so we, we went to go pick him up in Texas where he showed us a RAM in Fort Worth and we didn't know where his office was. 38:24 So we're going through the front doors and there's not like an airport scene. We have no idea what's going on. And then we're just trying to find the office. We have no idea. But we walked in right where the office was, not knowing that's where it was. And the door was open. And one of the sisters, who was an older sister missionary, was like Humphreys. 38:40 Alex is in here. And I thought maybe he'd be back somewhere else, somewhere far away. We'd come around the corner and there he is and there he is. And I wasn't prepared that we were about to see him. He just showed up and to see him and my wife come together is impossible to describe. 39:00 And then to hug him was one of the most powerful moments of my life. I wasn't prepared to have that moment right then. And it was healing. It was it was a healing of of this wound I didn't even know was there because it was that that part time apart. 39:21 And so, so when you say come unto me, I hear that now. And that is like you said, people in pain. We just need that more than anything. 39:35 Speaker 2 Oh, and I, man, I can relate. I'll share real quickly, but when I, when I went on, when I went on my mission, I, I didn't, my dad had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and I didn't actually know if I'd see him again. They'd given him two years to live six months before I left. 39:52 And so when I left him in the MTC, it was I tell people is like my funeral for with him, like I said goodbye. And that was one of the hardest days of my entire life. And I joke though, that my girlfriend didn't wait for me, but my my dad, my dad did. 40:09 He was, he was able to be alive when I came home. 40:13 Speaker 1 I didn't know that. I thought he had passed on your mission, but he was alive. 40:16 Speaker 2 He was alive. And so my, I actually came home a little early because of a certain missionary who came, who was coming into our mission that opened up this amazing opportunity for me to be home three days, three days before Christmas. And my mom kept it a secret from him. So he thought I was coming home in January. 40:32 And so he had ALS. So he was completely paralyzed in a, in a chair. And, and so, yeah, that reunion of, of, of returning unto a parent, you know, of, of seeing my father and, and being held and, and in my case, holding him. 40:49 You're right. You can't replicate that. Like it's, there's nothing, there's nothing like it. And, and, and I don't think we really, I don't, I think we as members really struggle to believe in that type of love that has said, right? That that covenantal love that Christ has for us, that it's when we return, like the scripture says, will you not now return unto me? 41:12 We're not we're not soldiers who get in line in front of him and are like, it's, it's, it's absolute love like that. He wants to just give us because I love it because it does say, will you not now return unto me and repent of your sins and be converted that I may heal you. 41:32 So it gives us divine sequence of events that occur in our healing process of return unto me. And I think a lot of people think that's repentance. And it's like, no, he said. I want to, I want to give you a hug. I want to give you a hug. Yes. 41:48 Let me tell you, you're. 41:48 Speaker 1 Going to be OK. 41:49 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly. And then then tell me what you need to tell, like let's work through it and and in this relationship, you will, you will run from your sins rather than I did it again, Jesus, like I'm just this guy and did it and like he's like, OK, well, tell me when you're almost better. 42:07 So then I can maybe help you more. And and so anyway, he this beautiful process of to me going to the temple is returning is it is always a return unto him. And what we do there, though, to establish our own repentance and to deepen our conversion is, is is part of our lifetime's journey. 42:24 But I'd love that it says at the end that I may heal you. One of the number one, the first, not even. It's not one of it is the first thing I do with all of my men is I tell them to stop asking for help. 42:40 Speaker 1 Interesting. And they look they. 42:41 Speaker 2 Look at me. And they're like, what? And I said, yeah, how many times have you asked God to help you with this? And they're like so many. And I said, how much bitterness has that created inside of you when he hasn't helped you? And they're like a lot, actually a lot. 42:56 Like, I feel like he's abandoned me that I've, I've, I've asked him, I've served a mission. I, I can't, you know, I've, I've tried, I've asked him for help, I've helped him. They feel an entitlement sometimes. And I'll say, OK, so tell me in the scriptures how often a person who was blind went to the Savior and said, will you help me with my eyes? 43:16 And how many lepers came to him and said, will you help me with my leprosy? I've been trying to put this ointment on it. Can you help me with this? And how many, how many other people do you know of in the scriptures? You're like, help me, help me instead. 43:31 What you do see is heal me, and I believe that it's he is. I always say if if you went to a doctor and the doctor's like OK, will you have this ailment going on? You have two options. I can help you with it or I can heal you. 43:49 Speaker 1 Yeah, the difference would be under certain. Like, hey, I need to do a surgery where you just, you just totally succumb. Like you give all of yourself and submit and let me just do it. What we're asking for is like, Hey, I broke this bone. Could you walk me through verbally and watch me do this? 44:06 And and you wonder why you can't like do the surgery yourself. First of all, it's too painful. Secondly, you don't know what you're doing. You don't have the divine internal perspective to know how to heal your we can't do it. And when you say heal, help what I heard in that when you said, and I do this all the time, by the way, help me overcome this. 44:25 It's about, it's still about me. Like I there's, there's a degree of pride and it's not again, we think of pride is like there's a beautiful talk that is another another guest on this month talked about President Benson's talk and beware of pride. 44:41 We, he says we often think of pride as the top upper class looking down. But the problem with with us is that we're on the bottom looking up and it's a different perspective. And it's that thing of, of like understanding when, when anytime we talk about ourselves above what the savior can do for us, we automatically are going to have that prideful connection. 45:02 So it's it's so like we have to submit fully and realize we can't do this. We just can't. All we in that in the temple. After all we can do. All we can do is come to the Savior. That's all we can do is come unto him. 45:18 We think of it as transactional, right? Like I'm going to go repent and then feel love. It's like, no, I got to go. I got to be held. I got to go give and in that moment, yes, I am. I am forgiven because I am running from anything else because nothing else matters. And that's why I think people start to feel like this, this thing called church and religion just doesn't work. 45:37 You know, I've been doing all these things. They either blame the the the process or themselves. And I'm one of those that will blame myself like something wrong with me because I'm not. It's like, no man, I'm just not understanding what it is to come to the Savior fully and submit to Him. 45:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I and when I introduce this to people, I'm in no way, way shape or saying like we shouldn't have prayers where we ask for help like it's it's it's absolutely a part of our life. But boy, I like you just said, a sin, if sin is truly a spiritual wound where where literally the spirit God gave me me, me is wounded because of a a choice I made something I did. 46:19 Like you said, we we can put a cast on a real broken bone, but to have the kind of this asinine belief that we can actually heal spirit really or help spirit like here's my plan to help to heal my to fix my spirit. 46:36 I need you to come in and do this for me. God, like, no. And that's that submission and that reality of spiritual wounds are his. And he already did it. That's the cool part. It's already done. 46:51 He's just waiting for us to realize it, that it's actually for me and not just for everybody else, Right? So yeah, that that will help. Ironically, that will help. But if you are anyone who's struggling with addiction or knows somebody, please know that they are often or you are stuck in this, in this loop of help me. 47:14 And then you put in all of your willpower to try to do that. And then you get tired and then it fails again and you've, and again, oftentimes the abandonment keeps building and and you feel like God is more distant from you. And that's where Satan has drawn men away from God so well, because he's broken the relationship of trust. 47:31 But it was actually because I think in many cases that man or that person was asking the wrong thing. And so if if, if God's will is for us to to ask to be healed and we ask to be helped, his grace, in my opinion, to correct me if I'm wrong, will not aid us in doing something incorrectly. 47:54 He can't. If it's enabling power, He's not going to enable our false petition. 48:00 Speaker 1 Well, because it goes back to agency. It's again, grace is always there. It's like gravity. It's just surrounds us. It's everywhere we can choose to work with it like in the sense that like if I'm going to go sin repeatedly, you know, there's still grace being present in ways that I can't even see. 48:15 But to your point to get healed, it's it's, it's a matter of of, of touching the hem of his robe. It's a matter of help me, my unbelief. It's all the things we see patterned in the scriptures time and time again. And I love that because that's the one thing he won't do is take away our agency. 48:32 It's the one thing he says, Oh, and that's what we hear in the temple. Like it is the single greatest thing that adversary wanted to remove so that he had the glory. And so he won't, the Lord won't take our agency away. But it's interesting because sometimes we don't understand what we're choosing, you know, So it's, it's powerful to have that knowledge, that light and knowledge. 48:52 Well, Shayden, this is amazing. I would love for you to tell the audience how they can get ahold of you. I'm sure right now there's going to be men, women, parents, children, young adults, professionals and before and before I have you tell people what you how to get a hold of you. 49:10 Have you just I want you just to validate. Have you seen this problem at all ages and stages? Is this something I think I know the answer, but like, is this something that is affecting everyone? Is it just certain groups? Is it just young men? Like tell me a little bit about that. 49:24 Speaker 2 Oh no, no, it's, it's, it's affecting everyone. And if you don't think it does affect you, then I, you kind of need to open your eyes that way. I'll say that kindly because even if you are not in the, the absolute addiction of it, you might be one who knows how to help. 49:41 Because again, connection is, is part of healing. And when, when people who are dealing with hard things and again, dealing with a lot of loneliness, which is an absence of connection, those who aren't afflicted with it, the more that you can still understand. 49:57 It will allow you to have more compassion for people who in your in your realm of life to, for you to be able to love them deeply and to maybe even ask questions that are a little bit better than how have temptations been lately? And instead to actually know, Hey, how's your pain been? What's been what's been a pain for you lately? 50:14 And for a wife to ask that too. It's really neat to see the wives that I've worked with before who begin that healing in their own way of, hey, Hun, what, how's your pain these days? And to see these men that I've worked with who have gone from never really saying anything to be like, well, actually, yeah, this has been going on for me. 50:32 And, and I've been feeling a lot of anxiety at work and stress and, you know, I feel like nobody really cares about my efforts at work. And then I come home and I'm really tired and, and just, yeah, like to actually be heard and seen. So, so be so being just know everyone is, is definitely afflicted. 50:49 And sadly, we do know that the, the, the age of, of, of viewing pornography, the first time we're being exposed to it is around 10 to 11 years old. I want to believe, sadly, that it's probably getting younger. 51:00 Speaker 1 It has to be. 51:01 Speaker 2 It has to be, and I would say near, near the age of baptism. I've definitely, I've seen many people where it's, it's, you know, five and six years old. Those are common stories that come in now. Are they the average? No, but I would say the average is around 10 or 11. But again, pornography is not the problem. 51:18 It's what happened after they saw it. What did, who did they tell? Did they have someone to talk to? And so that's where if if you're the one who's on that side of the game in this in this area, you can be such a force for good to be able to attune to those people. 51:34 And but if you're the one also, if you're the one struggling, one of your biggest hurdles is to allow others in on this thing that you've deemed so shameful. When in all reality, it doesn't have to be it's, it's just the solution that you chose or was even given to you. 51:50 In most cases, it wasn't even chosen. It was put in front of them and the brain, the brain took that in and it it created a feeling for them of of what they thought was peace or relief. That then said, I want more of that. Well, why would anybody want more of that? 52:07 It's because they were in pain before they ever saw it. So one of the questions I asked my guys all the time is tell me the pain before the porn, the pain before the porn. And they're like, what I'm like, yeah, come on, Two years before he ever saw it. Let's talk about your life then, what was going on for you. 52:22 And that always opens up things. They were in pain. It's always there's pain because someone who isn't in pain and they see it or like an out like alcohol. If you never have pain, like if your pain is seen by others, because we all have pain. So that's a false statement. But if my pain is is with people and I'm not alone in it so deeply and I can handle it with other people and I take a drink of alcohol. 52:42 It's just, it's not going to have the effect of a of a solution. It's not going to solve anything. It's just going to be like a thing. Yeah. And so, and that's, that's a difference. So, so that's the game that we play is we must, as we, as we've been talking about this whole time, get in touch with that and, and learn how to heal that with Christ and with Christ like people and and that is still him so. 53:03 Speaker 1 OK, how do they get a hold of you? How do they, how do they find out? Because there's lots of people, because my two cents on this too, is that shading your, you obviously help people over you help people find Christ in your program in overcoming things like porn addiction and that kind of stuff. 53:18 But it's not that's like, again, that's that's a barrier to what you actually do. And then and so describe what you do in in terms of like what the outcome is. And then tell me how they get ahold of you. 53:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. So wonder where my main focus is right now is I, I work with like 35 year old men around that age who are like high achieving, high, high driven guys who just really want to, to, to figure out their life, to figure out how to be more present and actually overcome what what's got them stuck as a man. 53:45 And oftentimes it includes some sexual struggle. So I do work with those guys very closely, very intimately in a very intense way and I don't take many of those men on, but just a few. And that's a huge part of what I love to do. So because of that though, I did build a program that I call Liberate and it's on my website, my, my company is called Motive and I spell that MOTYV. 54:06 So my website ismotive.com and you can go there and purchase a very simple yet robust. It's very, it's very deep and, and filled with knowledge, but it's a, it's a digital course with a workbook where you can watch me on videos and go through journal and, and, and, and therapeutic questions to walk you through this. 54:27 And you can get it for, oh, you know, a whopping price of like 1299 right now. So we'll see. Like I decided to take the cheapest gym membership out there and put it down. And because I want, I want people to have access and, and so, but maybe it needs to be more expensive for people to actually commit to it. 54:42 We'll see. But right now it's out there for that and it's it's I want. 54:47 Speaker 1 YSA's to be able to special. It's a temple bounce. You're not listen, you're not paying any bills off that. I think it's so great that you're serving people with that. And I just want to make sure everyone hears my voice saying that this is important. This is it's hard to know when you're lost in those moments where to go. It's always the savior and he gives us people on earth. 55:04 And my whole life is a reflection of the people I've surrounded myself with. Any success I've had is directly proportionate to my willingness to reach out to people like Shaden. So Shayden, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been an absolute joy. 55:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, thanks. Will appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 55:20 Speaker 1 Temple Bound is brought to you by the Light on a Hill Foundation, a nonprofit aimed at building and strengthening families across the globe. Produced by Heather Humphries, with show notes and social media managed by Isabel Dizen and Kimberly Simbafon. Wardrobe by and caller. These views and opinions expressed by the host and guests are on their own and do not necessarily reflect those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. 55:42 Thank you for joining us today as we continue learning, growing, and striving to bind our lives closer to the Savior. Until next time.