STEVEN WILSON on touring The Overview, remixing Jeff Buckley's Grace in Dolby Atmos, and more! - Immersive Audio Album Podcast (IAA)

Welcome to the Immersive Audio Album Podcast So, you know, I, I think Atmos in some ways, although I've said I believe Atmos works better for certain musics than us. And I think, and I think that's probably true. I do think that music that is, particularly when you get to the bigger productions, music that is more electronically orientated, works a little bit better than to me than rock music does for the for the aforementioned reasons. But I think a good Atmos mix is possible if of almost anything you you just have to approach it in in the right way. Speaker 2 You're listening to the Immersive Audio Album podcast. Please listen with Thanks so much everyone for listening to this episode of the IA Podcast. My name is Jonathan Cornell and IAA is your one stop source for news about new immersive music releases, interviews with artists and engineers, and of course high res digital downloads of albums mixed in Dolby Atmos, 5.1 surround sound and other immersive formats. So I'm very excited to say that just a few days ago I had the honor and privilege of participating in a quite extensive conversation with the one and only Mr. Steven Wilson. I think if you're a fan of Stevens work, whether it's his own music or his incredible at most mixes of classic albums from the 60s, seventies, 80s and 90s, I think you're going to find a lot to enjoy in this interview. Without giving too much away, we talked a little bit about the recent tour he just concluded for his latest on the Overview and there were some hints about what immersive projects could be on the horizon. So I hope you enjoy the interview. This is my conversation with Steven Wilson. Steven Wilson's Tour and Audio-Only Live Release Well, first of all, thanks for being here as always. Well, obviously I want to start with your own music. So in this past year, as everybody knows, you were on tour for a good chunk of the year. I think it was what like 70 shows Something like that. Speaker 1 I think it was exactly 70 shows. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Speaker 2 So I know a question you always get asked after you finish a tour is will there be some kind of live release? So I'll let you elaborate on it, but my understanding is there isn't a film per SE, but there is an audio recording that could be released. Speaker 1 So I mean, I record all my shows anyway so that everything is everything that we do every every show that we play has been recorded on multi track. So basically I didn't, I think I said quite early on in the two there wasn't going to be a film of the show. Now, there was a practical reason for that, which is if you saw the show, you'll know that darkness was a big part of the show and the use of of, you know, shadows and darkness and the obviously the screen was a big part of the show too. So my aim was really to kind of put the audience into this very kind of immersive space, quite literally and metaphorically put them into space. And that meant a lot of a lot of darkness to try and create atmosphere. And there's a lot of the show where it's just you're just seeing silhouettes against a sort of screen. And I love that. I think that's wonderful, you know, but it doesn't translate very well for obvious reasons. It doesn't translate very well to film. So one of the first things that any camera crew will tell you, any director will tell you, is that we need lots of light. You know, we need lots. And I know there are cameras that are better in low light and all that stuff. I've been been over this, but I think the decision was made earlier on pretty much between myself and Penny, my manager. Let's not let's not bow down to the sense of entitlement I think everyone has these days. They think every single tour is pretty soon, Oh yes, it's going to be on YouTube. It's going to be available on a Blu-ray. No, I mean, I didn't, you know, I grew up in an era when it was very hard to even know what musicians look like unless you paid your money and bought a ticket and went to see them play live, you know. So I think this sense of entitlement that everyone has in the 21st century, that everything's going to be like a Netflix special, not that my show would be picked up by Netflix, but you know what I'm sort of talking about this sense of entitlement that everything is going to end up being available in the comfort of your own home online. I like the idea that sometimes that you have to be there. So I kind of said early on, look, if you want to see the show, come and see the show. It's, it's a, it's a very immersive experience. You want to be there in a room with other people and you want to be feeling, feeling the space, if you'll pardon the pun. Now, so the caveat to that is obviously that I did record everything and there is going to be an audio. So just to contradict myself completely, there is going to be an audio document of the show, which is only going to be available online. So it's only going to be available digitally at least certainly initially in Atmos 5.1 and stereo. Yeah. So the the the live show, which the one I decided to mix was one that we recorded in Madrid just because the out the audience are so vibey. It was a great show. It was right at the end of the European leg of the tour, so we were kind of firing on all cylinders, really enjoying it. Very relaxed and the audience were very vibey. It was a great night. It was a fairly small club relative to a lot of the shows on the tour, so it has a wonderful atmosphere. So that was the one I selected to mix for the for the for the new headphone dust store release, Yeah. Speaker 2 Well, I think, you know, you've set the bar so high with these Blu-ray releases, you know, like Home Invasion or the Porcupine Tree at Amsterdam, that everybody assumes like, oh, he's going to have to do 1 after every tour. Speaker 1 Well, and, and yeah, OK, so the other side of the coin is that those are incredibly expensive to make. And to be honest, people don't want to buy. They don't want to buy. But I mean, OK, I'm, I'm, I'm generalising here. Of course there is a hardcore of fans that will always want physical products. There's not enough people out there that will buy a physical Blu-ray release to justify the $150,000 it costs to film, for example, the PT show or the home invasion. Really expensive. Now, if I was the kind of artist that probably would would be picked up by Netflix, you know, it would make more financial sense, but I'm not. So I tend to be making these things primarily for for the hardcore fans. And you know, you don't need to you don't need me to tell you that it all ends up on YouTube for free. Meanwhile, it's really expensive to to film it to that level. And we obviously did it to, to a very high standard with both of the two examples you've just given. And there's just no way to make the money back anymore. People don't buy live Blu rays. They expect it to be available for free online. I'm, I'm again, I'm generalising here that my fans, I'm sure would be very happy to pay for something like that. But I'm talking about, you know, the general public don't expect to have to pay. Well, they don't expect to have to pay for audio, let alone video. But video is about 10 times more expensive to originate than than a than a simple audio document. Speaker 2 Yeah. Remixing Older Solo Albums for Headphone Dust Store Well, another question I wanted to ask you is, as people know, the first record that you did that was mixed in Atmos was the Future Bites. But of course, there were all these other records that you had done in 5-1 previously, all your solo records. So obviously there's been a question, I know people have asked you this before, whether you would consider going back and mixing some of these older records that are in 5.1 in Atmos. And I know over the years you've said like, well, maybe I'll do like some of them. Like you've, I know you've been kind of cagey about it because you don't want to commit to having to do the work because it's still a lot of work to go back and remix the album. But I think we can say now that you have done some of them. Speaker 1 Yes, yeah. So, so the answer to your question is as you well know, because you've been testing the files for me. I've done Raven in Atmos, I've done Atmos of hand cannot arrays to the bonus on my list to do as well. There is a problem with things prior to that. Now what? What of course, one of the great ironies, of course, is that anything that was recorded in the analogue domain back in the 70s, eighties, 90s is relatively easy to to remix. But things that were recorded on computers, on the other hand, going back to the 90s and the even the 2000s, that technology has moved on so fast. Now I'm about, let's just say that since I did, since I did the early Porcupine Tree records, I think the first one I did myself was Fear of a Blank Planet 2007. Think since I did that, I've had about four or five different systems and each system is obviously more powerful than the next and each system is running on a more up to So the early records I used to use the the Digi design TDM architecture and around 2011 I went native logic and I've still got my old system but you can't do Atmos on it. So somehow I would need to get those sessions migrated over to native Logic. There's no easy way to do that. And on top of all of this, that was Sound Designer 2 files. You're probably too young to remember Sound Designer 2 files, but they were, I think they were proprietary Digi design files. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But anyway, those don't even work on my that doesn't even recognise as an SD-2 file on my new on my latest system. And there are ways to convert all those files over. But to cut a Long story short, it's not easy. It's not easy. So anything after 2011 probably I will end up doing in Atmos Anything prior to that, I would say it's very unlikely, very unlikely. Speaker 2 Well, talking about this whole headphone dust store concepts, which obviously 1 something I've been excited about since you told me you were exploring it. What what you're going to be doing with this is downloads, right? Speaker 1 Yes. So the idea is to do something similar to what you've been doing, which is I mean obviously one of the other issues of doing a lot of the work I do Atmos and high res stereo is the only real means I've had to get that out there until now is physical media. And you don't need me to tell you that physical media is essentially on a, on a downward trajectory in terms of the, the financial kind of logistics of doing something like that. And a lot of the Blu rays and things, they go out of print. You do one run and then they go out of print. And it just doesn't make financial sense to repress something in a quantity of 506 hundred copies. So you kind of have to guess how many people are going to want this. Oh, maybe 5000. You do the 5000, it sells out and then people are complaining they can't get it anymore And it doesn't make financial sense to to just press up another 300 or anything like that. So of course, having the downloads platform circumnavigates all of those considerations. I could put something up. In fact, I've I've remixed one of my bass comedian albums in in into surround as well. Now bass comedian is a very niche thing for me. And it wouldn't make sense for me to try and to spend all that time doing something and then press it on physical media if only 200 people are going to listen to it. But it's something I can do for fun and put it out on this platform. So it kind of lowers the bar in the sense of what I feel is viable to release. I can do all sorts of things now that I probably wouldn't have been able to do because it just wouldn't have made business sense to do it as a physical Blu-ray. Speaker 2 Well, the other thing too is like the speed of it. The Speed and Value of Digital Music Releases I mean, you and I have had, you know, previous conversations about this and one comment you had made that stuck with me as you were like, well, I wish I could like do an Atmos mix on Monday and then just release it on Friday. And one of the one of the things that's nice about streaming is that you can do that. That's one of the few advantages of it. I think like for example, the the Jeff Buckley Grace mix that you just did like it came out like a a week or two after you finished it, which is unusually fast even for some of the other projects you've done that have come out on streaming. So I think, you know, in this scenario and part of the reason why, you know, I've been doing this with my site is that kind of everybody wins. The fans get it's something that you own. It sounds as good as a Blu-ray. It is the same audio that would go on a Blu-ray and you you don't have the investment that goes into pressing the discs. So I don't I don't see why anybody would be opposed to this way of releasing Atmos mixes. I think it should be more widespread. Speaker 1 Well, I, you know, well, there is, there is of course that the the thing that some people still like to be able to hold the music in their hands, you know, to, to, to Co opt Paul Sinclair's, you know, catch phrase holding the music in yours. I'm still that I'm still that person. I, I still love to, to be able to have a physical collection that I can look through in front of, in front of my eyes, you know, see it all right, I love that and I will never get over, I will never get over that. But I think for, for so many reasons, there are so many positives with the digital thing. So not not being able to hold it in your hands is the only downside. I, I think in, in, in terms of what you're describing that, you know, one of the things you picked you kind of mentioned there and just to carry on that theme is that of course, sometimes I do mixes and they don't come out for two or three years. It's so frustrating. And so I mean, that might still happen with some of the major record labels. They might do a mix and they might sit on it for two years before releasing it to streaming even. But the reason a lot of these things don't come out is because of the issues with with making physical products. They go in a queue for physical release. There is the problems with authoring disc authoring, approving all this stuff, then putting it into some kind of record company schedule. So for example, the last six months I've so many things have come out, probably people probably assumed I'd done nothing but sit at my studio remixing stuff in 2025. Now the reality, I was on tour for most of the year, but the point is that a lot of those releases I'd done as far back as well, Deep Purple I did in 2004. I mean, OK, I upgraded it to Atmos, but the point is that those projects have been around for year, literally years. So there's a lot of inertia which comes with doing things for physical media, physical release 2, which hopefully again, having the digital platform would kind of circle navigate. And as you say, I mean, you know, forget finish it on Monday, release it on Friday, finish it on Monday, release it on Monday. You know, that would that's the ultimate, isn't it? I've literally just printed the mix and I can upload it to, to the platform. I'm I'm excited about that and, and the possibilities it gives me to go and maybe do some of my more niche things like bass communion in in Atmos for, you know, for a smaller audience. But you know what the hell? If I want to do it, I can do it. Speaker 2 Well, I remember when you had initially told me you were exploring this idea, I think I got a little overeager and I sent you a long list of things that I thought you should mix in Atmos from your own catalog. So I'm curious to see how far you'll go because there are, as you know, there are songs in the deluxe editions of some of the albums that have never been mixed in surrounds. There are these more niche projects and they're also like another piece of this too, is that I think the the user base for surround music has expanded quite a bit since you started doing this. So there are mixes you've done maybe 10 years ago, like some of the we talked about, like some of the Opeth records, Like there are people who who probably have gotten into surround over the last couple years that have no idea that those exist, that they're out on DVD or something. So it's, it's a good opportunity to reissue some of these older mixes that have been out of print for a long time. Some of them you could upgrade to Atmos if you have the files and if you have the time to do it. So as you say, a lot of possibilities. Speaker 1 Yeah. And and you know, like I said, I think a lot of these original physical releases have been out of print for many years now. So it's not, it's not just a question of people didn't know I did them. They couldn't get them even if they wanted, even if they did know. And if they wanted them unless they start, you know, paying hundreds of dollars, you know, to buy them off Discogs or whatever. So a lot of those things have gone out of print now, as you say, and this is the perfect platform to make them available again. Steven Wilson's Upcoming Album and Spatial Audio Design Now, obviously I would love to go back and do as much of this stuff in atmos as possible. The the I'm talking about the the earlier generation of point 5.1 mixes. Some of the labels are asking me to do that anyway, As you know, I've I'm I'm kind of re redoing a lot of the Crimson. A lot of the yes, we started going back and doing the XTC stuff. So that's coming from the label side, but there might be some other artists that have that don't have any interest, but maybe I can go to them and say, well, I've got my own platform now. Can I license, you know, from you? I want to do an Atmos mix and I want to put it on my platform and I think there's a lot of conversations that can be had. Now, I don't know how those conversations are going to go. It may be just they get shut down straight away. But all of the catalog I've done over the years, I want to have the conversation with the labels and say, can I, can I put the five one mix? Can I upgrade? Can I upgrade it to Atmos and put it on my website? And, and we'll see. We'll see because there's a lot of stuff and a lot of it is out of print and, and very expensive now on Blu-ray or DVD or whatever the original format was. And of course, that's the other thing is that some of them were released with, with audio that was perhaps compromised from, from the source. You know, some things only came out on DVD. I think my first caravan, one of the early caravan mixes I did only ever came out on DVD and pretty horrible resolution. And yeah, I did it in full res. So there's also possibilities there to reissue things for the first time at the resolution that they were actually done. Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, of course, I have to ask you because I know you're you're working on a new record, if you can say anything about that. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's almost finished, actually. It it's, it's a very strange record. It's a complete opposite of the Overview, which was a very lush, very big record, and also about a very large, well, the largest possible subject matter you can imagine, literally the cosmos as we know it. You know, this is a much more insular record. It's still very conceptual, it's still very experimental and very the pieces are are, well, it feels like another single piece of music to me in that sense, but it's much more angular and experimental. In a way that I'm really excited about and that's all I can like all I can really say at the moment. Yeah, Very different again, yeah. Speaker 2 So I know like when you, when you're in the stage where you're actually making the record, like you've said in the past, that when it comes to the surround implementation, it's not like you're, you're making the record for the format. Like you do you do all the mixing later. But I am curious like, because you know at this point that you're going to do a surround mix, like when you're actually laying down the parts, are you thinking like, well, you know, I could track this like 10 times and put one in each speaker? Like do you do you think about it in the in the compositional process? Speaker 1 I do, I do, I do, I do. But I don't. But I also don't really have to dwell on that too much because the way I make records anyway is by definition pretty layered. So, you know, I just, I love, I love the possibilities of the studio. I love overdubbing. Now on this, this particular new record I'm making, there's a lot of what I would call sound design elements. Now, that's not to say they haven't been on all my records, but let's just say I've taken it to another level on this record. There's a lot of sound design. There's a lot of sound effects that kind of place you in a particular place and a particular feeling. There's a lot of use of lo fi sounds as well, keeping things sometimes in mono. I mean, that's kind of the the the opposite of what you're saying in a way. But I'm making a lot of decisions on this album to keep things very small and mono, but also knowing that those things can be just as impressive in surround because you've got something very small in mono. You can place it very discreetly in a particular place in the room. Sometimes when you have things that have been tracked, you know, four or five times and you've got them, you're kind of coming from everywhere. But sometimes what's also nice in spatial audio, as you know, is having something that's just mono and being able to place it very, very particularly in a particular place. And that can be just as effective in spatial as the big immersive sound. So I'm using a lot of mono reverbs, spring reverbs. It all kind of relates to the concept of the record, which I can't really talk about the moment, but but keeping things sounding almost old and rusted. And I think those are going to be really effective in spatial audio because I've got a lot of those kind of elements. I'm, I'm playing a lot of instruments I've never played before. I'm playing the drums on some tracks myself. I'm playing violins, oboes, harmoniums. It's a very, I don't want to say it's a, it's a, a nostalgic sounding record because it isn't. There's a lot of use of modern technologies too, but technology too. But it's, yeah, it's a, it's a strange, it's going to be a strange record. And I think it's going to be a really interesting and like, probably like an Atmos, like a kind of Atmos mix I've never done before in the sense of all these little details and things that will be very discreetly, particularly placed in a speaker or a, or a, a position in the room. Yeah. The Challenges of Remixing an Iconic Rock Album All right. Well, to go completely in the other direction, talking about older records that you've remixed, at most I think we have to talk about Jeff Buckley's Grace, because it's the last, the last remix that you've done that came out. But one of the interesting things about that record to me is that there are some songs on it, like you say, that have a lot of sound design and, you know, like arrangements that could take advantage of at most like the song Grace. And then you have some other songs on it like Hallelujah or Lilac Wine that are just kind of just him and the guitar that aren't really kind of meant to be presented that way. And the the best you could do is just kind of make it feel like you're in the room. So I'm curious kind of what what your thoughts were like what some of the challenges were in mixing that record in Atmos, because I have to imagine it's daunting. You know, I know you've done some big records, but everybody loves that record. Everybody agrees it's like a Sonic benchmark. So the pressure must really be on to, you know, not make it sound worse. Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a big responsibility. I'm a massive fan of Andy Wallace as well as Jeff Buckley. So Andy Wallace is the only, I think it's the only album he's ever produced. I mean, Andy Wallace was like the go to guy for mixing, you know, for many, many years. I mean, he did Seminole records like Nirvana's, Never Mind, Slayers, Rain in Blood. I mean, he just made rock albums sound better than anyone else had made them sound before. And Grace was his one and only, as far as I know, production job. And it is sonically incredible. But it also captures the the band with all the, the, you know, the kind of grain and the flaws that you want to capture in a record that has personality. And in fact, you mentioned Hallelujah. Hallelujah was recorded straight to stereo, so there was no multitrack. It's literally Jeff and his guitar. So what was I going to do with that? Well, luckily the production already lends itself to being quite ambient. So I basically just added extra reflections and extra reverb and I made it sound like Jeff was literally singing that song in a church. And boy, it sounds so beautiful, so beautiful. And just as something as simple as that, creating these extra reverbs above you and behind you. Not, not drowning it, not trying to make it sound like he was underwater or anything, but just enough to to make it feel like you are hearing reflections coming off all the surfaces around you when you're standing in that church. And that that was that was obviously that had its own challenges. You know, what am I going to do with this? Just a stereo track? Well, that's, that's what I did. I think the other thing, and maybe we've talked about this before, I've certainly talked about this during my Atmos seminars, is the the problem with mixing a rock band, the problem that you don't have with electronic music, which is by definition already kind of abstract. You have abstract sounds in electronic music. When you listen to a rock band, you straight away have a picture in your mind, at least I think most people do. You have a picture of your in your mind of that band. And usually you have a picture of your in your mind of how you would get, how they would look when you go and see them on stage live. So you imagine the drummer at the back, the guitar players at the side, the singer in the middle, and spatial audio starts to mess with that preconception. And that can be used in a positive or a negative way. And I think one of the things that I've been very careful not to do with projects like this, but also some of the other more traditional rock format music I've I've done is to not pull apart the glue that holds the basic rhythm section together. So not to move the bass player too far away from the drums. I did that on one track on Grace which you mentioned which. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 But that was only because the bass on that track had a very particular effect of sort of fuzz, flanging fuzz effect. And it kind of worked. But usually I don't tend to pull apart the drum kit too much. I usually have the Toms just wrapped around you a little bit, but sometimes I see people commenting on online, Oh, it's a shame. The drums are very flat. Why didn't why didn't the mixer kind of put them all around you? Well, because it just sounds a bit wrong, I think is the answer. And there's a kind of cognitive dissonance that comes when you start pulling apart a drum kit and spreading it around the listener. Because when have you been standing in front of a drummer whose symbols are behind you, His snare drums over there, He's you don't the drum, the drum kit is a kind of gestalt thing. And so I think it works. I've I've kind of experiment a little bit and I think it usually works to have the Toms a little bit out, but pretty much to keep the drum kit as a, as a, as a sort of united entity and to keep the bass player and to keep the rhythm guitar players with those guys too. I'm not saying completely flat, but generally keeping them in the same vicinity. So I I always try and bring the rhythm guitars a little bit out into the sides, for example, but but they're also in the fronts. And this is just the way I've found works for me when I'm mixing rock music. So Jeff Buckley's Grace is a good example of that. This is essentially a four piece rock band or three piece in some cases, just Jeff the drummer and the bass player on some tracks cutting a live backing track in the studio. So it's really a question of what else did they overdub onto the tracks that present the possibilities for surround and Atmos. Now luckily on most tracks they did go back and track quite a lot of things, particularly on the title track which you mentioned. Dream Brother has a lot of overdubs, tablets, autoharp or. Speaker 2 Is it the Dust 1? The triple vocals during the chorus. Speaker 1 Triple vocals, yeah. And all that stuff's great. And then all the Gary Lowe Lucas stuff on Grace and and Mojo Pen. That's all, you know, grist to the mill for for atmosphere. But then there are other tracks where it is kept much more bare bones. Tracks like So real, Lovey, You should have come over. There's not, there's the Hammond organ or Lovey You should come, You should have come over. But there's not a massive amount of what I would call sound design elements as there is on the previous mentioned tracks. So those tracks by nature are a little bit more straightforward. And so we come back to the idea of just wanting to place you in the in the studio with the band really. And I think overall the album hangs together because the tracks are all very different to each other. It's funny, going back to the original reviews of the album, it wasn't particularly well received at the time and one of the criticisms was too many different styles, too many different approaches, not cohesive, a bit of a potpourri of different genres and styles. And of course now that's why we love it so much. And but I think people struggled a little bit with that initially. We're talking about the sort of peak years of grunge music and American rock music and maybe that wasn't what people expected or wanted, but I think that's what's given the album. It's timeless quality and it's what made it so good in in Atmos I think. The Art of Placing Elements in Immersive Audio To your point, yeah, I thought like having having tested it, I thought you made some some daring choices in this mix. And I've told you before that for some of my favorite ones that you've done are these records that are more stripped down because it really forces you to be creative in making it an interesting surround experience if you have less parts. You know, I'm thinking of something like Van Morrison's Moondance, Like with only with only eight elements to mix around, you have to sort of really think about how you want to make it enveloping without pulling the song apart. So yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think, you know, with, without wanting to state the obvious, and this comes back to what I was talking about my new record. Without wishing to state the obvious, when you've got less elements in in a mix, it's much more obvious where each element is placed. If you've got 50 elements, there's a whole bunch of things coming from all different directions. But when you've when you've only got 8 or so in the, In the case of Van Morrison album, there was as you say, only 8 track, It's very, very discreet, discreetly and discreetly obvious where each element is placed. So there is a beauty to that too. The the simplicity and the sparseness and things being in mono, not being completely enveloping and immersing. You're much more, your brain is much more, has a much more easy time placing. Ah, OK, That horn part is right there. I can almost touch it. I can almost touch that horn part. And the reason for that is it's just a single mono track, so there's no question of having one there, one there, one above you, one behind you, which sounds amazing too. Don't get me wrong, I love doing those kind of records too, where there are four horn parts and you can stick one in each speaker. But there's also a beauty about being able to say, well, I've got this one mono horn part, I'm going to place it right there. And I love that too. And, and so that's kind of a little bit of what's informing this new record I'm making too, that I also agree with you. Sometimes those are the most beautiful spatial experiences of all. Speaker 2 Because it is interesting, like on some of these really dense records you've done like from the 80s, like Seeds of Love, like if there's some parts where like I don't know, there's like 3 guitars playing the same thing. Even if you put them in different places, sometimes you still can't really perceive it. Like it. There's you. There's sort of this thing. Like it all comes together in your brain. And you can't really tell, you know, unless you start, you know, muting and unmuting the speakers, which of course is not the point. You're supposed to listen to it as a cohesive thing. So it it is interesting how people say that Atmos is most suited for these records that are like too big for stereo. And I think that is true to a degree. But like we're saying, sometimes it's the ones that you where you don't expect. Like this record would be good in Atmos mix. Sometimes those tend to be the best ones. Speaker 1 Well, and you know, coming back to the Jeff Buckley Hallelujah, sometimes some of the most beautiful Atmos experiences I've heard, and I'm talking about other mixes I've heard by other people have been a single instrument recital in, in a space, in a church, in a theatre, in a, in an auditorium. And so all you're really hearing is the solo performance, but then all the reflections from the ceiling, from the side walls, from the rear walls. And it's like you are being there. You can literally you can have that tactile relationship with the with the with the performer and the performance. You can almost touch, touch it. I mean, you use the word perceive. And I think that's the word I was, I was kind of struggling grappling for in a way. Is your perception sometimes of these big Atmos mixes is that everything is everywhere all the time. And sometimes with your perception with some of these much more sparse mixes is, is more powerful because you, you are very aware of something is coming from a very specific, particular direction. So, you know, I, I think Atmos in some ways, although I've said, I believe Atmos works better for certain musics than us, I think, and I think that's probably true. I do think that music that is, particularly when you get to the bigger productions, music that is more electronically orientated, works a little bit better than to me than rock music does for the for the aforementioned reasons. But I think a good Atmos mix is possible if of almost anything you you just have to approach it in in the right way. Discussions on Iconic Catalogs and Future Immersive Mixes Well, talking about another one you did recently where there is a lot, there are a lot more elements to play with were the new order records, which is an example of something that was on streaming for a while, but the Blu-ray came out about a year later. So all that is to say you never know what might come out on Blu-ray, what may not. So I because I know a lot of people's often complain when you have these records come out that only end up on streaming, but you know, never say never. Speaker 1 Now, is that this is interesting, so let me ask you this question. Is that because of the audio compression or is that because they just want to be able to own a physical product? Or is that a bit of a bit of both? Speaker 2 I would say it's a combination of both, Yeah. For, for me, I feel like the ownership piece is more important, but there is a there is a Sonic difference between the MP fours and the true HD because you've seen how sure how small the files are. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's massive. It's massive. I mean, I've, I've, you know, I've had to get used to the idea that these, these mixes I'm doing, you know, 96 K 24 bit mixes, the, the files sometimes are like 3 gigabytes being shrunk down to like 100 megabytes. And, you know, and I can hear the artefacts and I can hear the audio compression. So it, it's wonderful. And, and, you know, this is another motivating factor behind starting the headphone dust store is to be able to re release a lot of these mixes that have popped up on streaming in full resolution. So yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely always, I'm definitely always an advocate whenever I do one of these mixes. And the same is true of Grace. I've, I've discussed with the label and I'm hoping they're going to do a physical, a physical version of that too. I think they will. I think they will because it's so much more satisfying to hear it A, in full resolution and B, just to be able to hold it, you know, to see the cover. You know, it's maybe it's I would say it's my age and I grew up in the era of but you, you feel that too. And you, you didn't grow up in the great era of Yeah, well, you, but you own yes. So I know you, but my point is this. You could easily be because of your generation. You could easily be one of those people who say I don't need physical things in my life. But you don't because you understand there's something beautiful about you very much. You you're defined by the objects you choose to surround yourself with. I always believe this. I funny, I always have this conversation with my wife when we go, when we go to dinner with a new, a new sort of friends or new couple that we've met and they're inviting us to dinner. One of the first things I do, it's terrible really one of the first things I do is I go and look at what their book collections got in it, what their DVD Blu-ray collections got in it. If they've got one, which is very rare these days, to be fair, everyone still has a book collection, I think. And I go and see what, what vinyl CDs they've got because you can understand so much about someone, about what they've chosen to bring into their lives, books, films, albums. I miss that going round to someone's house and there's literally nothing. There's no photos even on the walls, you know, But you learn so much about people that you know that way. The paintings, the photos, they, they, they frame and put on their wall. And I think records, music is just as much a part of that. It's what makes you who you are. It's what you choose. At least it used to be the records you choose to buy, you know, the, the, the collection you build for yourself. I'm still, I'm still a, you know, a rabid collector of vinyl after all these years. And, and it, it's part of me. It's part of what defines me. It's part of what defines me, is what I've chosen to collect over the years. Speaker 2 Well, with the New Order stuff, the caveat is that some people may not know that you also did an Atmos mix of Blue Monday, which is only on streaming and very hard to find because there's a bunch of different masterings of it in the Atmos mix is only tied to one of them. So I know why it wasn't included on the Blu Rays because technically it doesn't go with any of those albums. The album it would go with his power corruption. Speaker 1 Lies. Speaker 2 Which you couldn't mix because the multi tracks are gone. But so I'm curious like if there were ever any discussions about some way to put that out? I mean, I think it would be perfect for a download, but there's also a there's that substance compilation. So I wonder if that that could be a candidate for an Atmos mix. Speaker 1 So that was the conversation. I think that that was the conversation I had with the labour at the time, is that at some point it might be nice to do substance because I've also got the I haven't mixed them yet, but I've got multi tracks for some of those other singles like ceremony. I've got the multi track for I think temptation. So the idea discussed at the time was we'll leave. We'll leave that because we we might go back and look at perhaps doing a proper, you know, bringing songs like true faith. And I mean, most new order tracks, as you probably know, were were non album singles. Most, most singles, I should say, were non album singles. I think 8090% of their singles were were specifically released only as stand alone singles without any inclusion on any album. So that's what Substance was. It's kind of rounding up all of these non album sings. So yes, fingers crossed that that might still happen, yeah. Speaker 2 One of the things I thought was cool about the New Order releases that I know you work directly with Stephen Morris when you were mixing them. And it seems like he was really into the whole surround thing because the Blu rays came with like a little liner note essay he wrote talking about like what he thought about mixing and surround and how much he enjoyed the format. So of course my other question is, have you you had any discussions about doing Joy Division in Atmos? Speaker 1 Well, you can probably guess the answer to that. Of course, I raised it several times. Are you going to get me to do Joy Division? And I know Stephen would love to do it. I think there might be an issue of tracking down the tapes. They haven't come back to me yet, but I think the the the will was there to do it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So fingers crossed on that, too. Yeah. I'd love to. Speaker 2 Awesome. Pink Floyd, of course, you did the Pompeii album, which was a highlight of the many reissues this year. As we talked about, Sony did a great job with the So I know I asked you this before, but of course the question is whether you would do more from the catalog. And it's interesting because Pink Floyd are one of those bands where a lot of the catalog has already been mixed in surrounds. Certainly most of that like middle period, like dark side, like the the latter half of the 70s from that point on. But a lot of the earlier records have never been done in surround. Like well, technically metal has been done, but obscured by clouds has never been done. Adam Heart mother, there's a quad mix, but there's no new surround mix. So I think there's still are a lot of opportunities to work on some of those early records. So I don't know if there if you can even talk about this, if there's any discussions with Sony about it. Speaker 1 I can only agree with what you've said. I think there's still a lot of potential to go back and do you know, even go back and and do do some of the film soundtracks like More and Obscure by Clouds. I would love to do them. Sony are still, you know, in the early days. I mean, they've wow, what an incredible precedent they've set with the 2, the 2 releases that came out last year, both #1 albums in the UK, which is phenomenal. I can't think of any other bands that that that could do that. Even The Beatles can't put out a reissue of a, you know, an old album and get to know. I mean, well, maybe they can, but there there aren't many bands that can is is my point. So Sony of certain incredible precedent, I think this is a great example of a catalog that is probably better off now that the band don't have any say in it themselves for the for the reason that obviously that there was so much politics in the band. I think they'd be the first to agree. I know David would the catalog is better off not being under the curation of the band. Sony so far are doing a tremendous job. I think it's very exciting. And let's say this, they've spent an awful lot of money on this catalog. So they need, they need to do a lot of releases and I think the plan they have is to do at least two major projects a year for the foreseeable future. I, I don't think that's being indiscreet to say that at least, but their plan is to do 2 major projects per year so they can recoup their investment. So I'm, I would be relatively confident that what you're talking about will will have to come up on the agenda at some point. And Needless to say, they are my favorite band of all time. I would love to be involved and Sony know that. So let's let's leave it there for now. Remixing Classic Rock and Managing Fan Expectations Well, you've already mixed 2 versions of Echoes now, right? There's the Saucerful re recording and and the Pompeii version, so you got to add the the original. Speaker 1 I just need to do the original. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Another one that I was really surprised that you did because I remember at the time when you asked me to test it, you told me it was one of the biggest bands you'd ever worked on. Rolling Stones, Black and Blue. And I think that's another example of going back to what we were saying about like a sparser record and at what, you know, the challenges that come with translating. That's Atmos. So I'm, I'm curious, I'm guessing like that just came through the record company. Like you never had any contact with the bands? Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, it was, it was a it was a Commission from, from Universal to do it. I, I was, I raised an eyebrow when I was asked because traditionally I'm not the kind of person who would do a sort of down and dirty rock'n'roll records. I love the Stones. I love those records and I love, I love that run. I was very familiar with the record, but I was surprised that that they came to me, but very excited. Obviously to add the Stones to my CV was very exciting. I think it's a great record. I think it's a great record. I, I did, I did what I, I did what I do. I did my best on it and I hope people like it. I thought it sounded amazing in Atmos. So this is another example of an album that is really about trying to place you in the studio with, with the, the you know, we talk about albums that have a lot of sound design. These albums have no sound design. They are about a rock'n'roll band in the studio, although there are overdubs. Of course there are overdubs, but they tend to be like extra guitar parts or perhaps a backing vocal part or a percussion part or something like that. So they're a very much, I use that word again. The Stones are very much a gestalt entity and you don't want to pull the glue apart from what makes this incredible machine sound like they do because you can't analyse that. And I know that some people, I've seen some comments saying I've made it too clinical and I did exactly what I've just said. I tried not to do. But at the end of the day, my, my goal was to try and do something a little bit different to, I guess filter the stones through my sensibility, my prism of how I mix things. There's a little bit more clarity there. I, I did my best to try not to, to kill that rock'n'roll dirty dirtiness and the grubbiness and the, the sort of looseness that this, that is the magic of the stones. So I let people decide whether I I pulled that off or not. Speaker 2 The thing that was interesting to me listening to it is even though it was done like in the latter half of the 70s, was probably like 24 track that record I would guess. Speaker 1 It was, yeah. Speaker 2 It's a lot. It's a surprising how sparse it is. Like a lot of the backing vocals are mono. Like you can tell it's all of them singing into one mic. And there's a there's a track called Hand of Fate, which is like your kind of typical Stones rocker. It doesn't have like the kind of reggae thing that's going on and some of the other songs in that album. And the thing that's interesting about that track is there's a part where like a guitar solo kicks in and you can tell the solo is not an overdub. Like it was just played live. One of one of the rhythm guitar parts disappears when the solo kicks in. So it's it's interesting that they were still kind of making records in the way you would expect like, you know, 16 track or 8 track even by that point in time. Speaker 1 Absolutely, yes. I mean, I think, I think the other side of that is that they did perhaps starting with Ghost Head Soup, they did start to do a little bit more overdubbing than perhaps they would have been doing well, having said their albums like Satanic Majesties were a bit more psychedelic. But I think we think of the Stones as basically a rock'n'roll band and we think of them as going to think of an album like Exile on Main Street. It sounds like it almost sounds like audio verite. It almost sounds like a field recording, you know what I mean? Like somebody just brought some microphones into a room and miked them up and said, OK, there's your record guys. And I think they did embrace the the possibilities of the studio in their own way there. So there are overdubs on this record. Like I say, there are percussion overdubs, backing vocal overdubs. There's the Leslie effect on the vocals on Fault to Cry. And so there are elements that you think, well, actually, no, they were starting to explore the studio a little bit more. But then, as you say, a track like Hand of Fate is, is old school Stones, just like, here's a couple of microphones. Let's just record the boys doing their thing. And it's like, what am I going to do with that? What am I going to do with that? In, in, in Atmos. But that brings us back to the, you know, the earlier part of our conversation that sometimes just placing you in the room, adding some extra reflections, you know, above makes it sounds like, you know, more, more kind of immersive. Yeah. Speaker 2 Well, I think like if you're going to do a Stones record in Atmos, that's probably one of the better choices because there's songs like, you know, Fool to Cry or Memory Motel where there are a lot of elements to move around. Like, you know, Sticky Fingers is one of my favorite Stones records. But somehow I doubt like, a surround mix of that would sound good or if it would even be possible. It's not exactly the most. It's kind of ragged sounding that album. Yeah, that's part of the charm. Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's the magic. That's the magic of the stones. But yeah, but then I think, yeah, like an animal. Satanic Majesties were probably great to do in surround, but then I don't know, maybe that was for all I know that was recorded on four track because it's like 67 or 68 is it? But that's an album where they're obviously experimenting with other musical colours and and different musical forces which which would make it possibly. But your classic Stones, your classic Stones record is drums, bass, 2 guitars, lead vocal, isn't it? And that's the thing. So yeah, like you say, this is one of the exceptions to that rule in a way. Speaker 2 Phil Collins, obviously you did, no jacket required. I know you and I had talked about this before, but the this year is the 40th anniversary of his first record Face Value, the one that has in the air tonight. So I think you had told me that there are maybe plans to do that, but issues with the tapes. Speaker 1 It's taken a long time for it to come along. It was certainly discussed when we when, when we started doing no jacket required. The idea was definitely to try and do at least face value and probably, you know, some of the others too. Nothing else has come along since, but fingers crossed, Fingers crossed. I think. I think the tapes were problematic for face value, but not not to the point that I don't think it's going to happen. I think, I think it will happen, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, I mean the whole record is great, but like worst case scenario, if you could just do in the air tonight, like as a single, because that's one of those, at least for me. I know everybody who's into everybody who's into surround has a list of like 1010 classic songs they won't want to hear mixed in Atmos or five one. And for me, that's one of them, so. Speaker 1 Yeah, I I agree with you. I think, I think with that track, everyone's probably got their own idea in their mind about how the big drum fill is going to sound in Atmos. So I'm probably on a hide into nothing there. I'm going to disappoint somebody. That's not how I imagined it. I don't know what I'm going to do with that. But yes, I mean, that's you'd think that would be that would be a definite showcase moment for Atmos, wouldn't you? The big drum, Phil? So we'll have to see what I decide to do with that when the time comes. Speaker 2 Put all the drums in the height speakers. Actually, that would be kind of cool. Speaker 1 Well, maybe that's maybe some that may I don't I don't think I would do that, but maybe that's what somebody somebody expects it to be. I don't. Maybe somebody wants it all in the back speakers or the science speakers. We'll have to see what I'm I'm I'm just going to follow my nose and see what sounds best to me. Obviously that's all I can ever do with it, you know, but you and I have spoken about this before that if you, if you gave the same multi track to 1000 different people, you'd get 1000 different mixes and you'd get 1000 different decisions on placement. And so I understand sometimes when people are disappointed with that, they hear their favorite album and they've been waiting years to hear their favorite album in Atmos. And of course they've had this vision. That's the, that's the wrong expression, isn't it? Because you can't have a vision in your mind, but you know, a vision of sound. But they've had this preconception. That's the word. They've had this preconception in their mind about how it's going to sound and they've imagined it. This is how it's going to sound. And then they get the Stephen Wilson Atmos mix or the David Coston Atmos mix or the Bob Clare Mountain Atmos mix. And we've done it differently to how they imagined it all those years. And it's like it's a disaster. It's so disappointing. And that is something, yeah, even even between. Speaker 2 Like even between our correspondents, when you ask me to listen to these things, like the comment I make, a lot of times I'm like, I wouldn't have thought to do that. And you're probably thinking like, well, I don't know. Like, that's just what my, you know, instinct wanted me to do. And you probably think when I when I say like, oh, you should put that there. You're probably like, that sounds awful. Like why did he say to do that? Speaker 1 Well, but, but a lot of the, a lot of the time, a lot of the time you say that and I'm like, and I'm, I'm the same. I'm like, Oh, you know what, that sounds cool. I wouldn't have thought to do that. But that's, that's, you know, that's, that's what I'm saying is that everyone would probably do different, would probably make different decisions on placement. And I understand that sometimes people are disappointed. It's not how they imagined. I like to think that they'll get used to it pretty soon and, and understand why, why it was mixed like that or why I thought it sounded good to do it like that. But you know, that's, that's the nature of what I do because I do, I do classic albums. I don't mix new albums in Atmos. I've, I've done a couple. But generally speaking, what I do is take classic records that people know very well. Sometimes people have been listening to them for 50 years and know them better than the artist does. And though for better or worse, that's the those are the tasks I take on taking an album that everyone, no, sometimes better, better than I do. There's always someone out there that will know the album. But even after I've spent six months mixing it and feel like I've deconstructed and reconstructed and know it better than any fan could possibly know it, there's always someone that will say, oh, he's used the wrong take of the backing vocal on the third line in the second bridge. And I'm like, fuck, how did I miss that? But I did and those things are easy to well, not easy, but that is one of the problems that, you know, I, I will always, always come up against a fan that knows the record better than I do. Even having spent all that time mixing a record. There will be somebody that will spot something that's wrong. He's used the wrong he's put the high hat too far over to the left in the second verse and I shit, they're absolutely right. And I it's something I missed. And I look touchwood, I don't make too many of those errors, but those are the things that drive me crazy when I make mistakes like that. And I try my hardest to make sure that doesn't happen. But inevitably things do slip through. Anyway, we digress. Navigating Missing Tapes and Uncommissioned Atmos Mixes Going back to the idea you had mentioned before about that you're, you're going back and redoing some of these older ones you've done in 5-1 in Atmos. Obviously the yes catalog is one of those you've just done topographic, it's coming out, it might be out already by the time this comes out. And there's there's an example of a record where you know, there's a million different ways you could approach that. Speaker 1 Oh my God, Yeah, yeah. Even even in the even in the 10 years since I mixed it the first time, I, I mean, I just, I went back and I did it from scratch pretty much. Oh no, I didn't do it from scratch, but I certainly made a lot of changes to the original 51 mix because, you know, there are so like you say, I'm, I'm paraphrasing you. There are so many different ways I could mix that record. I could be mixing that record from now until the day I die and still messing about with it. At some point you just have to say, OK, this is Ava. This is an interpretation of the album in Atmos, and I'm sure it's not going to be what some people want, but hopefully most people will will respond well too, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, having having heard, I will say I was not disappointed with with. Speaker 1 I think it sounds amazing. Yeah, I think it sounds amazing in atmosphere. Speaker 2 So of course the question is, and I know I've, I've asked you this before, I think Relayer is definitely a possibility since you've already done it in five one. So it's likely that Rhino will want to do a box set of that at some point. But the the question to me is the records that come after that, because I know some of those you have said the tapes were missing at the time like when you were doing the five ones of these. So I don't know if there's any possibility of you know those other records like 9 O 125 or going for the one, any of the ones that haven't been done in 5-1 yet. Speaker 1 The simple answer is I don't know and I'm not being cagey there. I really don't know what I've heard over the years is going for the one tapes are missing Drama, which is one of my favourite Yes albums. I know that's a heresy if you're a John Anderson fan, but one of my I'm a big Trevor Hall fan, so I love that record. The last time I spoke, I think I spoke, I think I asked Jeff Downs about it. I said, you know Jeff, I'd love to do that album and he said no one knows where the tapes are. So I think there are issues with missing tapes, but it's, you know, look on the bright side, at least what most people consider to be the the the core classic albums, which I think is that run from the yes album through to and including Relayer. Luckily, the tapes for those have all shown up. So it could have been worse. It could have been the other way around. You know, we could be saying you could be interviewing me and saying, well, you know, you did put out tomato in surround sound, but what about close to the edge? Speaker 2 And. Speaker 1 Fortunately, it's not that way around, so let's be thankful for small mercies there. Speaker 2 I mean it's not my favorite Yes record, but I think 9 O 125 would be an incredible atmos mix. Speaker 1 I agree. I agree. I think that would be great. Well, just to just to do our own. I think that's a classic example of an album that is so front loaded with the single that which is just one of the most brilliant sit pop singles ever made. The rest of the album is always slightly deflating, isn't it? At least for me anyway. But just to be able to do Owner of a Lonely Heart would be would be incredible, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, they definitely have the tapes for that because there was a 5, there's a 51 of it that was done for like a sampler disc years ago of of just owner of a lonely heart. So I mean, I mean, the fact they had that, they had a transfer of it like more than 20 years ago. It doesn't necessarily mean people know where it is now, but. Speaker 1 Right true, true. As we as we found to our cost. Yeah sometimes things that were mixed in five one. In fact, I went through this recently with an album. I'm trying to remember what it was now and if it if I remember I'll be I'll know whether I can actually talk to you about it or not whether it's still under the table. But anyway, I forgot what it was now. There was an album that was definitely mixed in five one and yet nobody can find the multi tracks and. In fact, that happened with Propaganda. David had to go back to to really old tapes and reconstruct the album, yet it had been mixed from the master reels like 20 years before. So things definitely go missing, have gone missing even in the last 2025 years. I mean, obviously I've I've no, I've, I'm, you know, I'm, I've got no reason to believe that even if there was a Amos mix of 90125 done that it would come to me. You know, I'd like to think that they would think of me but having done the others, but maybe someone is out there doing it right now. Who knows? Maybe Trevor Rabin is doing it himself, who knows? So yes, I agree with you. It'd be great to to hear that one. Speaker 2 It's unusual that you get asked to do a project that oldly involves stereo, but there have been a few of them over the years, what most notably the Black Sabbath reissues. So for volume 4 I can understand why you wouldn't do a surround mix because it was just an outtakes. But for Technical Ecstasy my my understanding was that all the songs were complete except for one where there were no tapes. So I wonder if that could be a candidate for a surround mix at some. Speaker 1 Point yeah, in fact I did I think I did 3 tracks in Atmos for for Warner's to present to to Sharon and and the Black Sabbath management team that's that's going back three or four years now never heard anything back again about it unfortunately. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you know what that could be the. So that's a great example of the kind of project where I could maybe go to Warner and say, look, I've got my own Atmos download store now. Would you if I do an Atmos mix, you don't have to pay for it. I'll do it, you know, under my own Steam, I'll do it. Could I do that? Release it on my only in Atmos, release it only in Atmos on my store and we pay you an agreed royalty for it. Maybe, maybe there's a conversation. Those are the kind of conversations I want to have once things are up and running. And I feel like we've, we've kind of, you know, got over the initial honeymoon period of the store and I can start looking around and. And yeah, they're those those kind of records where they're only done in stereo because the label were either uninterested or the management or the artists were uninterested or the budget wasn't there to go on and do surround sound. Those could be conversations I could go back with them and have with them now. Yeah. Speaker 2 I mean, that was what happened with the Chicago record, right? Was it like 10 years later? They were like we won an Atmos mix so. Speaker 1 Well, I, I talked them into it. I talked them, I talked Steve Willard Rhino, I talked him into it. I said, look, you have to do an Atmos mix of this. And by the way, I've already done it, basically said I've already done it. You need to put it out. So that was kind of, I don't do that often, but sometimes I do kind of go off and do these things and kind of go back and present them almost as a fait accompli to the label. You know, look, I've done this. It sounds great. You'd be very foolish to not put it out. So yeah, it's it's it's happened. Yeah. Speaker 2 That was a fun one because for me, that record, there's a quad mix of it and there was a 5.1 mix. So when you sent it to me, I had all the other versions in my head. So, you know, it's like you said, there's so many ways you could approach doing it and they were all different. Speaker 1 Yeah. And and I made a point to not listen to any of the previous versions. So the the the occasions when I've I've actually had the opportunity, which was oh, Moondance. So Moondance has been done by earlier in five one. And I went back and listened to his mix after I did Atmos and his mix is fantastic. But obviously he made some different decisions, as you'd expect, going back to our earlier point about two different mixes, two different mixes. I went back and listened to this 51 after I'd done the Atmos, but I was very particular. They didn't want to be influenced by listening to it while I was doing my interpretation. And it's interesting, you know, there's a couple of things he did and I was like, oh shit, why didn't I think of that, you know? But generally speaking, I like the fact that I had AI had taken a very different or fresh, fresh approach to it, which was very distinctly my my approach. Yeah, and that's probably true. I have I still haven't heard the original Chicago Quad or five one, but I'm sure they are very different. Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, the quad mix is especially interesting. There's a lot of there's stuff that was mixed off of the original on it. Like in you probably know this from having seen the multi tracks, but in 25 or 6 to 4 the guitar like the lead guitar track runs all the way through the song and they just picked like little pieces of it to feed and in the quad mix it's just opened the whole time. Speaker 1 Right. OK, which is? Which is? Speaker 2 Kind of distracting, but it's cool to hear for the fans. Speaker 1 So I, I, I suspect that's just being somebody being lazy, not not making it. Would it would be interesting to say, oh, they made a creative decision to leave it in the quad mix. I suspect that they just hadn't whoever mixed it just hadn't noticed. I, I found that before also listening to some surround mixes that other people have done and they've left stuff open and I think it's just they hadn't, they hadn't noticed. I've done it myself. I've left things in mixes before. And then a fact like this is going back to what I was saying earlier about fans saying he shouldn't have left a tambourine in on the 3rd chorus and I just hadn't noticed. I hadn't noticed. You know you when you're mixing, your mind is trying to concentrate on 1000 things at the same time and you know. Speaker 2 It's shocking sometimes, like I've seen a few multi tracks like how different they are from the song that you know, like in terms of how much of what it is was made at the mix. Speaker 1 Yeah, completely all. Speaker 2 Kinds of little, little bits and things that were supposed to be muted, something that was flown in it just the right. It's I think people don't understand like often who listen to these things because as fans, we only get to hear the final product. But it it is shocking. So how much you have to go through to get it to sound like what you know? Speaker 1 Some, some albums are very much constructed, as you, as you pointed out, very much constructed in the mix. Some albums you pretty much just put the faders up and it's exactly what you what you know. But those are rare. I think Moon Dance is an example of that, where pretty much you put the faders up. That's the album, you know? But there are other mixes where, as you say, that a lot of it was constructed and choices were made. Updates on Progressive and New Wave Catalog Remixes Usually, for example, usually if we, if we go into the realms of 24 track recording and beyond, usually, for example, guitar solos, they're usually composites of four or five takes. I'm just going through this now. I'm I'm doing King Crimson's Islands in Atmos and a lot of Robert Solos he did four or five times and then they comped them. Not they didn't comp them and copy the comp to another track on the on the multi track. They literally comped it as they were mixing. So right, track 23 and when we get to bar 2 1/2, we're going to go to track 24 and then we're going to go to track 12 and then, but no, we want that phrase from track 15. So those things you really have to have your wits about you and concentrate to make sure you get all the same edits and, and create the same composite that they did. And this is one of the reasons why I love people like yourself. And also with Crimson, there's a couple of real Crimson obsessive. Sid Smith is one of them that will always listen to the mixes and they'll always come back to me and say, oh, you know, you've used the wrong phrase of the guitar solo in Bar 15. And they're always right. And it's just something I've missed. Even being a fan of those records myself, it's so easy to miss those little things. So yes, mixing is is quite an intent. Can be. It can be where the record is made, you know is made basically. Speaker 2 XTC catalog As you said before, you've done skylarking and drums and wires in Atmos. I assume eventually you'll just redo all of them? Or is it like they're picking certain ones they want you to do again in Atmos? Speaker 1 So I've done Big Express as well. So there's been three done in Atmos. Yeah, yeah, I know why you you've missed that. That one was done, you know, for the first time it was done. It was done in Atmos. Whereas the other two, I went back and and retrofitted the Atmos Yeah. I mean, I, I think the XTC camp right now is in a little bit of a netherworld between not wanting to draw a line completely under this idea that there might be some other stuff still to be done that hasn't been done at all yet. So we're still, I say we the label or Andy's label, which is run by a guy called Declan Colgan, who runs the Crimson Label 2, although Declan's officially retired now, but he's still involved. We're still hoping to find tapes for Mama, for English Settlement, for White Music, for Apple Venus, and that whenever the conversation comes up, what next? It's always like, well, we could go back and redo some of the albums and Atmos, but is there still no more tapes to be found for any of these other ones that we haven't touched yet? And I think we're getting to the point where we're running out of options on the latter, sadly. Speaker 2 Well, I don't see, I don't see it like as an either or like you could do all the old records in Atmos and there could be things that come up for the missing ones. Speaker 1 No, my, and you're absolutely right. My point is that whenever the the conversation comes up, you know, you have a 20 minute conversation about it before you talk about something else. It's usually always taken up with discussions about where the missing tapes might be. And then it's like right at the end of the conversation, it's like, but you know, we could still go back and do some of the old ones in Atmos. And yeah, yeah, we will do that. I'm sure we will do that. But what, what I'm saying to you right now is that the oxygen of conversation is usually all taken up by the discussion about where could these tapes be? Because it's so frustrating. Mama for, for Andy, you know, particularly he's heartbroken because Mama is one of my favourite albums, is one of his favourite albums. We're missing like 4 tracks and, and I'm like, well, should we just do it without the four tracks? And he's like, oh, I don't want to do it unless we've got the whole thing. And I know I feel that way too, you know, It's very frustrating. Anyway, I'm sure it will happen, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, because it's interesting because when I, I thought Skylarking was a good choice for the first one, because if there's a lot on that to take advantage of the extra speakers. Like I think I felt like there was a real difference between the five one mix, which was good with the Atmos mix. And then the second one was drums and wires. Like when, when you had told me you did it and I was like, really like, is there enough on that to do an Atmos mix? And you did it and it sounded amazing. Like there were over elements that came out in the Atmos mix that you couldn't even hear in the the five one version. So I'm fully on board for all of them to be done. Like, you know, Black Sea would be great. Speaker 1 Black Sea, the the the Dukes albums I think would be amazing in Atmos. The Dukes of Stratosphere albums, but none such oranges and lemons. I think all the ones we've done would would would sound fantastic in in Atmos. Ecstasy were a band always, even when they were a quote UN quote post punk group white music and go to even then they were still using the studio in a way that perhaps other their contemporaries weren't using because they they came. They always loved Andy Dave Gregory, pre Dave Gregory. Isn't it those two albums? But Andy always loved the idea of using the studio in creative way. So I think there's a lot more layering on those records than perhaps a lot of their contemporaries would have on their records. Speaker 2 As far as Toll Catalog goes, have there been any discussions about going back and doing at most of some of them? Speaker 1 There has. Speaker 2 Cool. Yeah. Tears For Fears, I know. As we've talked about, Seeds of Love is like in limbo, even though you did it quite a while ago already. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. So, so, so originally it was done before I did the the Atmos mix of songs on a big chair. But I think it was decided with the 40th anniversary last year, they wanted to that they wanted that one to push in front of the queue. So that one kind of pushed Seeds of Love to the back of the queue, as it were. But I I hope it'll come out, maybe this year. I hope so. Like you say, it's all done and it's it's you know what? A massive record. Yeah, massive record. Speaker 2 And then there are of course, the other records. There's Everybody loves a happy ending, which has both Roland and Kurt. I think that would be a great Atmos mix. And the bonus on that one is that the original version has like the, you know, loudness war brick walling. So, but then the the the one I think would be incredible is Elemental gotten really into that record it especially that first track like wow. Speaker 1 Amazing, yeah, yeah, it's an extraordinary record. I think it's Roland's masterpiece as a solo, as kind of in the solo guise of the band. Anyway, I think it's it's it's just a masterpiece. So many tracks. Elemental Mr. Pessimist Brian Wilson said that it's just fantastic tracks and amazing production. I hope it will happen. I think it's I think it's more likely to be everybody. Everyone wants a happy ending first just because it's Kurt and Rowland and they're they're kind of right back together right now and very happy working together again. So I think that's probably more likely to come along rather than the two tiers vist solo records, at least in the meantime anyway. The Nuances of Binaural Audio and Led Zeppelin's Absence It would also be great if they just did another new record. You know, The Tipping Point's an incredible record, so. Speaker 1 Isn't it? Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Isn't it an amazing record? Yeah. I mean, I speak to her own occasionally. He's he's just had a baby daughter. She's only nine months old, so he's kind of been distracted with with that recently. But I know he's always writing and yeah, fingers crossed. Speaker 2 Crimson, you mentioned islands. I, I had put that in my like predictions list. So I think that was, it was kind of obvious. One interesting thing I had heard though was that there's this record called Thrac. Speaker 1 From the trac. Speaker 2 That the five one mix was not done by you, but they did a 51 of it. So I I wonder if if they wanted to do at most of that, if that would go to you. Speaker 1 They do want it. I know they do want to do Atmos of it. I don't know whether it would go to me or, or, or whether Jack, I don't even know. Jacko can do Atmos because that was a Jacko mix originally, wasn't it? I think Jacko and Robert did that one together. I don't know. I don't know. But yes, I know, I know that they they do want to do that one in Atmos because the whole nature of that record being the double trio, I mean, it's kind of made, it's made for, I mean, it was made for 5/1 and it's even more so made for for full blown spatial, isn't it? Yeah. Well. Speaker 2 Yeah, because I was talking about this with the friends, because the the the philosophy of the five one mix was like, you know, 1 drummer in front, one in the back, which makes perfect sense. But when you when you put it into Atmos, what would you do? I mean one in one drummer on the bottom and one at the top would be kind of weird, but I wonder. Speaker 1 I think, I think well, one of the things obviously you have to think about now is you have to think about Atmos in binaural and necessary evil to be thinking about that. And, and I think we talked about this before you and I certainly going back and redoing some of my 51 mixes in Atmos. One of the decisions I'm making is to where I previously had split things front and back is to restore them to left and right. And the reason for that is they sound the way they sound in binaural, because if you have two complementary parts and you situate them front and back, they just sound like they're on top of each other when you listen to them in headphones in binaural. So one of the things I've found myself doing when I'm revisiting a lot of these albums in Atmos is revising some of those front back splits into left, right splits so that they still sound like they're in different places when you listen binaurally too. So I might, so the answer to your question is I might look at doing, which I think is what they did on the original record now, isn't it? They, they did a kind of left right split with the double trio. And I think that might be more a more effective approach simply because when it when you listen to it in binaural, you'll also get that separation too. Speaker 2 And just so people know, like at least from my experience, you know, corresponding with you on these while you're working on them, like you really do work hard on the binaural to get it to sound good. And sometimes you have to make like a lot of changes. Like I remember on Grace there was a real issue like with the vocal levels or with something where you had to tweak it quite a bit to get it to sound good in the headphones. Speaker 1 Yeah, I almost, I almost decided to do a a different, a different deliver a different version of the files. In the end, I just, I found a happy medium, but I was toying for the first time ever with the idea of maybe, you know, maybe here I need to deliver an Atmos speaker mix and an Atmos binaural mix. And I didn't in the end, but definitely the I mean, I don't know what the algorithms do. No one will tell me really, but particularly the Apple binaural algorithm, it's very hard to figure out exactly what it's doing. But for no apparent reason, sometimes things will disappear, not disappear completely, but feel very low or very loud. And there's no real explanation for why that should be. I wish I understood why. But yeah, I do go back and I tweak mixes based on my experience hearing them in binol because I have to. And I understand that. Well, let's be honest here, most people, that is the way they're going to hear it. Yeah, 9095% of people are going to hear it in binol or they're not going to hear it. I'm through a discreet bunch of speakers. So. So it would be foolish to not to not, you know, address how things sound in binaural. But God, it's a pain. It's a pain having to do it, but it's rewarding in the sense that once you've done it, you know it will sound good. Speaker 2 Well, I know because, because I think you and I both like that sensation of like, when things are coming from a very specific place, you know, like horns only in the back, like guitars only in the sides. I remember there was a record you were working on. I think it might have been the Phil Collins one, where there's a couple of tracks where there's like a horn section. And I remember you had the horns all the way in the back, which sounded great on the 714. And then you'd listen to it on headphones and it would be like, they disappeared or like half the volume you'd expect. Yeah, they disappeared. So then it's like, well, like, do you make them louder? Because then it'll sound weird on speakers. So I think what you end up doing is you move them off the wall a little bit, which kind of helped them feel more presence. Speaker 1 Well, that was your suggestion, lest, lest your modesty stop you from saying so, Jonathan, you suggested bringing them out and I and I did pull them up a little bit in volume because it at the end of the day, it didn't hurt. It didn't hurt the full blown Atmos mix either to have the horns a little bit louder. So you kind of reach a happy medium where you you make them a little bit louder, but you also bring them a little bit out into the room and you kind of reach this point where it sounds good in both contexts. And there is definitely a lot of that going on now with Atmos mixes. Certainly when I do them, I, I kind of, I kind of reach a happy medium where I probably put things a little bit louder or a little bit lower than I would be inclined to if I was only listening on speakers. But it doesn't really hurt the experience but it does make it does have a knock on effect of making it sound better on in a binaural. Situation. So you kind of reach a compromise, a happy medium, whatever you want to call it. Speaker 2 Well, I've noticed a lot of people just don't really use the rears that much. Like they'll have a lot in the sides and then like almost nothing in the rears. Remember when I first, when I first set up my system, I was like, why are people doing this? Like there's these extra speakers, like you could put some backing vocals in them or something. And then when you take into account the binaural thing, it starts to make sense. Speaker 1 Yes, that's probably it. That is probably it. Yeah, probably if people have had bad experience, put stuff in the back and then realise they disappear. So. But that's a shame, isn't it? That is a shame that that wouldn't be the salute. Well, clearly that is not the solution for me. There are other solutions as as we find, yeah. Speaker 2 Yes, a long time ago you did an Atmos mix of the first Roxy Music album. I don't know if there were. I mean that first of all, that would be great as an Atmos upgrade that record. Speaker 1 Well, I did. AI did. AI did. Yeah. Just to correct what you said. You said I did an Atmos. I did a 5.1. Speaker 2 Mix. Yeah, Yes, my mistake. Yeah, you did a 5.1 mix of it probably more than 10 years ago now. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Which is it was in a box set which is now out of prints. I, I don't know if that would be a candidate for an Atmos upgrade. And also if there were ever any discussions about you doing more of the catalog, because it's funny, you did the first record. Obviously Clear Mountain did the last record in both 51 and Atmos, but all the ones in between have never been done in surround. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a shame. I mean, there have been conversations about it over the years. Quite recently there was another conversation about it, but the conversation kind of was along the lines of if it gets done, Bob's going to do it. I have actually got the multi. The The funny thing is the idea when I did that first down was that we were going to go on and do at least the next four or five too. For Your Pleasure, Stranded Siren Country. We were going to do those, but it just took so long for the first one to come out that all the momentum had gone. I have got the multitrack still on my drive of of for Your Pleasure. But I, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's a conversation that's been going on for God knows 15 years now, but nothing ever seems to happen. Nothing ever seems to happen again. That could be another situation where once I've got my store up and running, I can go back to universe and say, look, is it universal? It is universal, isn't it? I can go back and say, I did find 1 of this 15 years ago. Can I do an Atmos and put it on my store? But I think Brian particularly is quite particular about about the Roxy brand, understandably. So it may not be possible, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, yeah, Clear Mountain he did. He did all of Brian's solo records. I'm pretty sure those are all on streaming. They just did one of them a Blu-ray. So it seems like he likes Atmos so. Speaker 1 And, and I think Bob is Brian's guy and, you know, fair play, but Bob, one of my heroes, you know, for mixing and amazing. So Bob is Brian's guy. I mean, I would just like to see them happen. Obviously as a fan too, I would just like to see them done. So if, if Bob would do them, I would be very happy. Yeah. Speaker 2 So the last question I want to ask you is obviously I'm not, I'm not going to ask you the question of like if there's any Atmos mix of a classic record, like what would you choose to do? Because you would just say, you know, there's so many because I do often ask people that question. But I think to my point, like I was saying before, we're starting to see like a lot of the gaps filled in of like these big records that were never done in surrounds, you know, like the Stones or Jeff Buckley's Grace. But I think I feel like the one big gap, one of the big gaps that's still missing in the classic rock world is Led Zeppelin. None of the albums had ever been mixed in surround. A couple of the live records have been done in Prive one, but none of the studio records have ever been mixed in surround. So I'm sure you would do it if asked, but I'm curious if you could if you have any insights you. Speaker 1 Know none, none. No, it's, it's I, I don't think it's ever even come up. It's never even come up in conversation. I mean, obviously it would be Jimmy's decision and Jimmy's choice to do it. You know, maybe maybe he just doesn't, doesn't dig surround, I don't know. No, it's never come up. You're right. I mean, it's the, it's the one catalog, isn't it? But who knows? Maybe it's being done right now as we speak and, and you there's going to be an announcement in a couple of months that they're doing the whole catalog in Atmos and fantastic. Obviously I would, I would if I was in the frame to do it, I would, I would jump in a second like I did with the Floyd, like I did with the Stones, you know. But no, it's never come up. Certainly in my conversations. It's never, it's never come up. Steven Wilson's Creative Role and Chic's Comping Challenges Kate Bush. I thought you were going to say Kate Bush because Kate Bush is the one is the one other artist. For me, that's like it's a no brainer to do it in surround and it's it's never been done. Speaker 2 Especially now that the the interest in her has gone up because of. Speaker 1 Stranger. Speaker 2 Things, yeah, I would say normally that Prince would be one that was missing too, but they've done a bunch of them. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, I think they've done quite a few now, haven't they? Is around the world in a day. Has that come out in Atmos it? Speaker 2 Just came out on streaming, like unceremoniously. No announcement, but it's there, yeah. Speaker 1 But but isn't that usually the case with streaming anyway? That it's it's always unceremoniously. Speaker 2 And sometimes, sometimes they do, like a press release. Speaker 1 Oh, do they? OK. Speaker 2 But maybe only for the biggest things like the, you know, Giles Martin Beatles mixes, they'll do a press release saying that that's out. And I know you always do your social media announcement just so people know that you did it. Speaker 1 Well, I do, I do, yeah. I mean, but I, I, I think it's in the nature that things that you do for streaming just kind of, you know, they just kind of appear on streaming one day and I guess when people are searching for a particular album, it just appears as another option. So yeah, it's, it's usually, I mean, I don't know what happened with Grace. Grace just kind of dropped, didn't it? One day and it. Speaker 2 There's like AI don't know if you go on Apple Music a lot, but there's like a there's like a spatial audio section where they have these like they have these like carousel things where it's like, you know, rock, jazz, whatever. And one of them is for like Classic records, and it just kind of appeared at the top of it. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 But it's not uncommon to look at that just of like the new classic records and like a bunch of them will be yours. Like it'll have grace black and blue, couple of the chic records, you know, something like that. So I'm always thinking when I see this, like it's got to be frustrating for like all this stuff is on there and it doesn't even say that you did it. Speaker 1 Oh, doesn't even say I did it. No. Well, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, without wishing to state the obvious, I, I get hired to do these things and it's not my music. It's not my art. I mean, I do think I, I bring some creative sensibility to. I mean, I've always said the reason why I think musicians like the way I do spatial audio is because I am a musician and I think about it as music. Not, not, not as a kind of technical exercise of a mix, you know, a mix, It's a piece of music and we're going to make it sound cool in surround and spatial. So I like to think I do bring some kind of creative sensibility to the mixes. But I can't complain. I get, I get hired, I get paid, and most of the time I think I do pretty well. But I, I, my name gets used quite a lot. I mean, it gets on the front cover of a Pink Floyd album. God, my God, that is my dream come true. But the dream I had as a 12 year old kid to see my name on a sticker on the front of a Pink Floyd record. So I'm not complaining. I think. I think my name does does get in the frame quite probably more so than a lot of other surround mixers to be fair, because I think because I am a musician as well. So maybe that for that reason my name has a little bit of extra cache that the record companies are happy to to use in the best possible sense, the word. So I'm very lucky that my name does usually get pushed to the front, if you like, always with physical products anyway. But yeah, the streaming thing's a bit frustrating. I thought that at the very least there's the metadata, isn't there, which usually tells you who did the mix. Or is that not the case? Speaker 2 They may have updated that, but my understanding is it on Apple Music, it doesn't have that like the immersive mixture is not one of the metadata selections, but they that's something they could update at any time. So because I know when you when you submit the files like they have all that information. Speaker 1 Yeah, anyway, I'm just happy to have been able to do something like Grace so and you know, and like I say, they will touch wood. There will be a physical release of that at some point anyway, so my name will be on that one at least. Speaker 2 Yeah, there hasn't really been any. I think there has been like a deluxe CD of that, but there's never been like a box set of grace or anything. Like it hasn't been reissued that many times so. Speaker 1 No, and there's a lot of other stuff on the tapes. The the Hallelujah version, the stereo version, there's about two hours of him just playing that song. I mean, personally I wouldn't want to listen to all the versions. But if you did want to do a sort of write a maximalist completist, warts and all, box set, there are hours of Jeff just playing mainly, mainly the covers, playing covers of songs, just him and a guitar like he was doing at the Cine, the club where he made his first live album. There's hours of him doing that kind of stuff. Like I say, I'm I'm I'm not part party to these conversations. Maybe that's exactly what the record company are planning as we speak. Who knows? Who knows? Speaker 2 So if that's true, I wonder if the final Hallelujah was a comp of a bunch of them. I guess if that's true, be glad you didn't have to re comp it. Speaker 1 Well, and I've done plenty of that over the years too, having to re comp, re comp things. Yeah, there. You know, what's the the the biggest comping comping job I ever had to do was on the Chic records because the Chic records tended to be made by essentially so the live band would cut a track in the studio live together. The, the so Niall Bernard, the drummer Tony Thompson, there'd be a piano player. They'd cut this live backing track and the tracks would go on for like, they'd be in the pocket with these grooves for like 1520 minutes. Le Freak or you know, or good times, whatever. And they just hit this beautiful pocket in the middle of this jam for about two minutes where it just felt great. And then what they would do is they would take that 2 minutes and they would basically loop it a number of times or comp it a number of times and then bring the singers in to sing over the top of these composites. So what I'm getting when I get the Royal multi tracks is this long jam with about a minute and 1/2 in the middle of the whole track is constructed from and I. Speaker 2 Have. Speaker 1 I have to reconstruct the track and I, boy, it took me age. I mean, I was super happy when I'd done it, you know, But the result. But yeah, that that was a massive comp job. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 It's funny because that like what you describe like you could do that in a second with Pro Tools like you could just do tab to transient loops the thing, but they had must have had to do it by cutting the tape and then. Speaker 1 And, and also they weren't, they weren't playing to a click. So the tempo's drifting, the tempo's drifting. So every time it, every time it cuts to the next piece of the composite, actually, the tempo just subtly changes, goes down. Usually, usually bands speed up as they play. So where the cut is, usually the BPM drops by one at that point, you know, not so you'd notice, not so you'd notice. But that stuff, if you lined it up on a grid, you'd really see the how the tempo was shifting. Which of course is are the magic. Again, it's part of the magic of what makes those tracks sound like they do. Speaker 2 Exactly. Well, thank you so much for this. Speaker 1 Pleasure. Speaker 2 So if you stuck around this long, I hope you enjoyed the interview. Please do sound off in the comments, I think there's much to discuss. And don't forget to subscribe and frequently check the IA site for more news about new immersive music releases.