Steven Bartlett: Why I Asked My Girlfriend To Marry Me! Being Independent Is A Mistake

If you're starting a business, there are certain things that are so fun to think about. Y'all know I love a mood board, so everything that relates to the creative, the name, the brand, the website, the vision board. But then there are the things that make you pause and ask, am I even doing this correctly? Or do I even want to be doing this? Like forming your business, getting the right documents, keeping your personal information private. This is where our sponsor at Northwest Registered Agent is so helpful. They're a one-stop shop for founders who want to launch and legitimize their business without turning it into a giant admin spiral. They help you form an LLC or a corporation, act as your registered agent, and give you tools like a business address, operating agreement, website, phone number, professional email, and free guides. They also have real corporate guides who know your local laws. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com slash HSR free and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent. Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com slash HSR free. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility, and availability varies 18 plus. I said this the other day, and people found this to be not a good thing to say, but I don't care. The key to being a great content creator or doing really anything with your life is accepting embarrassment is the price of entry. Now, what's the inverse strategy? Embarrassing yourself because you never reach your own potential. So I have a choice, inconvenience or inconvenience. This is probably why my friend said to me, you'll either be a prisoner or a millionaire because I was going to do something. I was going to do something. Why do you think you're like that? When I reflect on my podcast, my journey, how I started, it is this commitment to embarrassingly small steps that gave me evidence about who I was and counteracted evidence that existed there before. I think people think of me starting the podcast, I called it like Netflix, I called it a big time producer, but actually I wish you could have seen me that day. Embarrassingly small steps. What are those common characteristics of highly driven, highly successful people? I think one of them is this idea of pushing on paper walls. One of the attributes I look for is are they the type to question constraints? And we try to do that. I think one of the attributes I look for is are they going to get everybody to realize the things that they're told this has always been the way to go up to it and check, push on it. What is the state of your brain every single day? It's a really good question. There's a narrative of people trying to avoid dependency. Don't depend on anyone, stand on your own feet, be your own boss. And I think this is a mistake. I'm very excited about depending on other people and having other people depend upon me. Let's make dependency and commitment sexy again. What is the last thing that you put on your credit card? In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it. Stephen Bartlett, are you ready to get hot, smart, rich? I guess so. Would you pause with that? I was wondering whether I should answer that question, honestly. But you know, I guess I am. Like, how does one get ready to get hot, smart, and rich? It's a mentality. It's a feeling. Don't rip apart the hot, the smart, the rich. Like, it's all a being. It's an energy. It's just that feeling when you feel like you can go and do everything. But I was going to ask you, you can't interview me in this interview, Stephen. Were you nervous at all to come down here? Because you don't do interviews very often. I'm not nervous. I was really excited. And I hope I do a good job for you. Okay. You know, that's how I think about it. I noticed you wore a completely different outfit for me. You usually do, like, kind of a uniform. And one of the things that I noticed is you don't wear shoes. Yeah. Which, for someone that is the second biggest podcast in the world that has really thoughtful conversations around business and AI and the future of health, like, why the no shoes thing for you? You know, when you're having a conversation with someone and they're holding their phone? Yeah. The frame often matters more than the picture in life. Yeah. And them holding their phone lets you know that they have a series of priorities and you're one of them. I think a lot about what things say, what objects say, and then what the downstream consequence of that is. And on my podcast, which is founded in my kitchen, which is meant to be a private conversation between me and this person about often very intimate, deep things, shoes signal that I'm going somewhere. Shoes signal that I'm not staying. Shoes signal that I'm not at home. So from episode one, I took my shoes off because that type of conversation is not one where you wear shoes. So that was just a decision I made. And there's lots of intentional decisions that we make on set. Try and encourage the type of conversation that we're looking for. So yeah, people always say to me, should I take my shoes off? I said, you can keep yours on if you want, but I'm going to keep mine off. And there's carpet as well, which I think is really important. So yeah. I'm smiling because that was a very intentional decision that I made. Episode one, I had a pillow on my lap because I was nervous and I wasn't wearing shoes. I read something and I watched it on behind the diary. When you talk about what you said to yourself before you went out for Jimmy Fallon, can you repeat what you said the minute before you walked out? Okay. So I'm going to have to take a couple of steps back here. I was in Los Angeles where I live most of the time now, and I was playing paddle with my friends. So my five best friends flew out to Los Angeles for my birthday. We spent seven days together. We play paddle every single day. Some people don't know what paddle is. It's like pickleball, but it's more fun. That's controversial. And my friend Ash, who has trained in Spain, who is technically a really good paddle player. He, for some reason, was kind of like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't understand why because he's had the most training. And so I started watching him play and I noticed something very clear, which was when he took an L, when he lost a point, you could see he would emotionally become unregulated and spiral down, which would hurt his performance. And I've was that he was starting the game playing with his prefrontal cortex. And then when he took that loss, he would become emotionally regulated in his limbic system, the emotional center of the brain, which would then impact his performance. And he was mentally spiraling, which was hurting his ability to play. So when he came off the court, I sat him down and said to him, there's something I've learned, Ash, which is if you can keep yourself in your prefrontal cortex, the logical rational part of your brain, it won't impede your performance. So I'm going to give you some lines to say to yourself. And these lines were, that point doesn't matter. I'm going to win the game anyway, because I am the better player. And he went out onto the pitch up until that point, I was the champion. And then he beat my friend, Logan, he beat my friend, Michael, he beat my friend, Oliver, who, which he had never beat before. And then he beat me. For me, this was a tremendous aha moment. And it's really a broader point about how to deal with difficulty, nerves, and emotional dysregulation in life, which correlates to like the greatest athletes and founders and CEOs that I've ever studied. Even Roger Federer is a prime example, which I talked about behind the diary. I remember watching Roger Federer, who's arguably the best tennis player to ever do it, his commencement speech, where he said that he had lost roughly 48% of the points in his entire career, which means that even the best to ever do it, half the time, they're dealing with losing, they're dealing with taking hours. But Roger Federer went on to say in that commencement speech, the issue isn't losing. The issue is, if you let that loss cascade emotionally into what you do next. So Roger Federer's key thing was to become the best tennis player in the world. So Roger Federer went on to say, if you let that loss cascade emotionally into what you do next. So you let the loss go. And the next point is a brand new start. It doesn't matter. I'm going to win the game anyway, because I'm the better player. And so before I walked out to Jimmy Fallon, I felt super, I did feel quite nervous because it's so far away from the world that I live in. Like you've got seven minutes and you're meant to be funny and you've got to say something interesting. You don't know what's coming. Studio audience, not my game. The paddle thing had just happened. So behind the curtain, I said to myself, you're going to do really, really great. You're going to be funny. You've spent your whole life being interviewed. You are so ready for this. And I walked out and it went really, really well. And I'm not a manifester. Like I'm not, uh, I'm not the type of person that believes in like, woo, woo, look at yourself in the mirror, high five yourself and you'll be fine. However, I've sat with enough neuroscientists in my life, probably 20 or 30 of them I've interviewed to know that what you say to yourself has a direct consequence on your neuroscience and your neuroscience has a direct consequence, obviously on your behavior. So now I'm a bit of a believer. In self-talk. So have you seen my HSR love notes every single day? Every single day. So I post them probably three to four times a week. And it's something I've done for three years, pretty much every single day in my journal. And it's a little bit hard for people to understand because I'm such a positive, optimistic, happy person. Like that's my personality, but my brain can be a really, really, really dark place, like scary thoughts. And I started noticing like, wow, I'm a really confident person. I go out and I take big swings and I have no problem. Like I literally took all of my life savings to work and live in the United States by putting all of the money I had into an E2 visa, but every single thing that I had on believing I could make more money than what was in my savings account and building a business in the States. So it was like such a contradiction of being extremely confident, but like having a really dark side of my brain that would tell me things like people hate you. You're not good enough. You can't do that. And so I started doing these love notes. because I was like, I need to bring that like inner confidence out every single day. And I'm so interested for someone like you, because we do have so many commonalities that we're going to go into. Like, what is the state of your brain every single day? I think I have a bias to optimism. I think it's so hard because you don't know anyone else's brain. Like you've never lived in anyone else's brain. So this question is quite tricky, because you're not sure what's unique about yours or what isn't. But I'd say I have a bias to optimism. I say, providing I've slept, my baseline is positive. And I think because of the last 15 years of my life and being a CEO and a founder at a very young age, I've also developed a little bit of, I'd say a little bit of coldness. And what that is, it's emotional. It's knowing that sometimes, you know, I was 21 years old when I had employed hundreds of people. And then as I, you know, as I got to 27, I had 500 employees around the world. And at any, any moment, whether it's Christmas Eve, your birthday, Boxing Day, New Year's Eve, you would get bad news. All you need is one person to give you bad news a day when you have 500 employees to know that you're going to get bad news today. So I learned, I think this ability, this almost trauma response to stay calm within the chaos. That means when things are great, I'm the same. And sometimes I have to feign happiness or excitement. Happiness wasn't the right word. And when things are terrible, I'm the same. I'm a very, very stable person in that regard. And I think this is something that I've had to learn. It's, it's partly who I am anyway, but it's also something that has, is like a trauma response to going through all of the difficulties and all of the, all of the bad news. And, you know, being a CEO at 22, 23, 24, 25 years old, getting hacked, losing 80% of your business, having to, you know, have team members that are double your age and dealing with their problems too. And I think I'm a very stable person in that regard. My head is a good place to be. And I think partly because I have a bias towards being very rational. And, you know, like Ali, you said in your head, sometimes it says people hate me. Yeah. Obviously they don't. Of course. Which I'm saying is you would agree that's, that's not a rational thing based on the evidence you have. Agreed. Yeah. So I think I'm a very rational person. Sometimes to a fault because you, you know, when you're dealing with a romantic partner. We'll get into that later. Rationality. Rationality. Rationality is not the best approach, but it helps in business, I think, because you're able to think clearly, even in the most horrific storms. So would you say that you have the highs and then you have the lows naturally, and you've had to learn how to go more even keel, or you were just born being more like, okay, I know how to think rationally and think logically. And so the highs don't get you super excited because what you even said to me when I signed my deal, I'm like, my authentic reaction is to jump up and down with joy. Yeah. And it was interesting. It was interesting to be met with you. Do you remember what I said? You said the hard work starts now. Yeah. I'm not excited. Yeah, because I'm focused on the work. Right. And that's my like, my default when I sign a deal is I'm now forecasting the set of challenges we now have. And so I'm so far ahead forecasting the set of challenges that we now have, that in my head, there's just no time. So for you, obviously, I tried my very best to be excited for you. And, you know, but I take the responsibility that the incoming, storm is my responsibility. So I'm thinking ahead, like I'm thinking about the meetings I have to have with certain people to make sure we do a good job for you. And that's like my entire focus. It's just just the way it is. When you hear this, you can think, oh, this guy, you know, he's, he doesn't live a happy life. Like I do. I wake up in the morning happy. But I'm very hard to swing down or up. It is so interesting, because although we're so similar, that is such a big difference for me. And it's something I know I need to work on as now like a leader and a CEO. But I think two things that are huge commonalities to both of us that I think a lot of people will relate to. One, we didn't learn through resume virtues. So we didn't go and chase the Harvard on our resume, the Goldman Sachs, we went and learned through the game of life. When you dropped out of school after one class, and you were no longer paying for tuition, what is the most expensive lesson? That you've had to learn, instead of paying for that tuition? Even that is an example of the way that I think can work. Because the reason I dropped out after one lecture was because logically, rationally, I went to that room, I saw my peers sleeping on the table. The guy at the front of the lecture was asking me to make a hypothetical poster for a hypothetical business. I looked around and thought, oh, this is like school where I failed. The rational first principle question is, is this going to get me where I want to go in my life to become an entrepreneur? If I get this degree, and I'm an entrepreneur, who am I going to show it to? If I'm an entrepreneur? Immediately, it was a violation of rationality. I never went back. And so there's something in here, which is extreme rationality, and a great relationship with uncertainty. I did not need a plan B. And I genuinely believe in life, your relationship with uncertainty will wonderfully correlate your outcomes. Like how good are you at jumping off the cliff when the paraglider is 51% assembled? Or do you need it to be 100% assembled before you jump? Because if you do, then you're going to overstay your welcome in situations that don't serve you. And this is what I see a lot of, I see people come up to me a lot on the street because of the diversity. And they'll ask me questions like, that what they're trying to do is get me to cultivate more certainty in their life so that they can get to 93% before they make a decision. And we all logically know 100% certainty only exists in hindsight. So you have to get good at this is something Barack Obama said, when I spoke on, spoke on stage just after him in Sao Paulo many years ago, he said my biggest decisions in my life, whether it was getting Osama bin Laden in the U.S. or getting those compounds in Pakistan, even though we'd never seen Osama bin Laden was in there. We didn't have an ID that he was in there. I had to get to 51% certainty and make the decision with the knowledge that I did it with the best available information and be at peace with that. I think there's so much, so much power in that. And the great founders that I've interviewed, or studied like Jeff Bezos, all have this same principle of like low certainty decision making. But going to your question about the biggest regret, or most expensive lesson, most expensive lesson is all it's always going to be the same thing. And I think it's going to be the same thing. And I think it's going to be the same answer for everybody listening. Can you guess what it is? No. The best decisions you make in your life, and the worst decisions you'll make in your life will all be people. Does that track for you? Personally and professionally? I think so. If you break down. Yeah. Yeah. Your sister. Yeah. Yeah. The best decisions I've made in my life and the worst decisions I've made in my life were all people. And in business, it's the same. It's aiming too low, because maybe I was insecure. And I didn't think I could manage someone that was more talented than me, or the best decisions were aiming really, really high. And I think when you look at the data, both personally and professionally, whether it's in your personal life, the impact it has on your net income, if you marry well, your mental health, your social connections, because some partners can be really isolating, and they can cut you off from your family, your friends, if one of your best friends takes up healthy hobbies, you're like 50 60% more likely to take up those exact same hobbies. So it impacts your health outcomes as well. And then in business, I mean, the definition of the word company is group of people. That is the entire game. And at 18, 19, 20 years old, when I was starting out as a founder, I did not know this was the game. I thought the game was work seven days a week, have really great ideas, then you become a billionaire. I was wrong. I didn't really learn this, I'd say, until about three years ago. Now I can now people can say that they know it. But then my test of you knowing it is you showing me your calendar. And me saying how many hours you've allocated to finding truly exceptional people. And if it's five, then you don't you haven't learned this lesson yet. Brian Chesky, who I interviewed, and who I consider a friend, to be honest, he's the founder of Airbnb says that great founders spend 40 to 50% of their time on headhunting. And I can tell you this morning alone, we're at like, midday. Now, I've spent 50% of my morning hiring and doing that culture test survey and contacting candidates and writing new questions for the culture test survey. I've spent 50% of my month on hiring the plane right over here 50% of my time on that plane was spent hiring. I really understand this is the game. I think culture is the most important thing. And I've interviewed so many of the great sports players or Manchester United players, which is my football club, who worked under Sir Alex Ferguson, who, in my opinion, is the greatest manager of all time, to know that culture is the most important thing. I remember when I sat down with Daniel Ek, who's the founder of Spotify, him saying to me that when I was 20, I thought culture mattered and hiring mattered. When I was 30, I thought it was, you know, probably one of the most important things. And now at 40, I think it's the single most important thing. And this tracks in the case of Sir Alex Ferguson, who is the founder of Spotify. Sir Alex Ferguson, who's one of my great managerial icons, I would assume that the reason why he's a great is because he had great tactics. Like, that's what you'd think. You'd think that he does something on that whiteboard that other managers aren't doing. But when you sit down with his players and ask them, what was Sir Alex Ferguson so good at? Why did he go for 26 years winning everything to the point that he could fire the star player and still win? And then he could fire the star player again, and then still win. And then he could fire David Beckham and then still win. How does someone do that? They would all say to me, it's all about culture and man management. Rhea Ferdinand, who was one of his great players for a long time, said to me, guess how many times he came into the training ground dressing room in those 26, 27 years? I said, how many? He goes, once. He didn't need to come in there because the culture was in there. So if one player didn't act in line with the culture, we would correct it. We would have the conversation with that player. A lot of companies think of culture of a group of people as words you write on a whiteboard or aspirations you have. We're going to be ambitious. We're a resilient team. We're really enthusiastic. especially in my view, how you behave. what you would do in a given situation the culture of hot smart rich is what a hot smart rich person would do on i'm talking about your team members on christmas eve when they get a text from your biggest client let's say it's apple and apple say hey we're logged out of our account what do they do do they ignore them till new year's do they send them the email right away do they roll their eyes and send them a rude response and remind them that it's christmas how you behave in a given situation is your culture and so we built culture test as a way to predict how people behave you've done the culture test it asks you 35 questions now which try and figure out exactly how you would behave in a given situation and it's the single most predictive thing we've discovered to find high performance and alignment i care more about culture than i do qualifications i i've probably hired thousands of people now in my career thousands and thousands and i can't tell you once where i've ever asked someone what they degree they got in university or what their grades were or those kinds of things my game is all about what's driving you and um how are you going to behave when it matters the most do you remember what i scored very high do you remember the exact i know you remember because i can see the smile on your face for the last six years 98 yeah and it was very interesting because this past week jason who's worked with you for 10 years he sent me a voice note and he was like i had no idea how similar you and steven really were until this moment this week where i've actually got to see it in practice because it's like hypothetical and then it's two months of now really being able to study you and see what you're like first i would love to hear from you what you think the commonalities that we have are that would score us 98 and then in practice have someone that's worked with you for 10 years say we are so similar while we're also fundamentally such different people like what are those common characteristics of highly driven highly successful people i think one of them is this idea of pushing on paper walls have you heard me talk about this before i would love for you to explain it to people that haven't heard it but yes i've never heard it i've heard it of course but the listeners we don't know if they've heard it yeah so one of the questions in the culture test which i love the most because it's very very rare for people to click this answer but i think it's i can make the case as to why it might be the easiest and most important thing you can do to be more productive in your personal life or more productive in your business or more productive as a manager and it's this idea that i've written about in my book that hasn't been published yet called pushing on paper walls the question in the survey asks you it says there's an event taking place in a couple of weeks time in six weeks time an important supplier who has some things you need for that event tells you that they won't be able to get you the stuff in time what do you do this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus this episode is brought to you by indeed you're ready to level up your business but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load it boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast and it's a great way to cut through the chaos with indeed sponsored jobs get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply hiring now then this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more botox on a botulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start it's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month it prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month and it's a great way to prevent headaches and adults with chronic migraine versus six to seven for placebo prescription botox is injected by your doctor effects of botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking breathing eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk side effects may include allergic reactions neck and injection site pain fatigue and headache allergic reactions can include rash welts asthma symptoms and dizziness don't receive botox if there's a skin infection tell your doctor your medical history muscle or nerve conditions including als lou gehrig's disease myasthenia gravis or lambert eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects why wait ask your doctor visit botox chronic migraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more you have three options on my culture test option number one is scale back the event so take things away from the event maybe we'll remove some of the cupcakes whatever so that you can hit the button so that you can give yourself more time and the third answer is the paper wall pushing answer which is just ask the supplier why it takes six weeks it's so crazy because about seven percent of people click that button but that is so clearly the right thing to do because you'll be able to relate to this in your own life where you've just asked somebody why a constraint is a constraint and they will volunteer up information that means you can reduce and change the constraint we hire a guy called andrew who works on behind the dial and he's going to tell you why it takes six weeks to get a diary on my youtube channel andrew's in the philippines we need andrew to do his animation from behind the diary in about two to three days so that we can pass it to the next person in the team so that we can hit the seven day deadline i messaged andrew andrew's been working in one of my other companies for four years i said how long is it going to take you to edit this and you said to me nine days at that moment you find yourself at a crossroads this is the paper wall pushing crossroads what do you do and you just told you nine days well a paper wall pushing crossroads says why does it take nine days i said to andrew why does it take nine days and i was in the chat with will and alex and you know andrew said to me and you said well i've got an old laptop so it takes nine days to render and i said so what would we have to do to make it take two days he goes you buy me a new laptop so two thousand dollars fixed a problem that's now going to save me 60 of my time for years two thousand dollars crazily and you didn't offer up that information because when people are trapped in paper walls traditionally they're going to be trapped in paper walls and preference and the way it's always been done they don't know that they are they've accepted it themselves and when you look back through history at some of the greatest companies that have ever been built whether it's you know even a company like zara which was founded by a guy called amancia ortega he existed in an industry in fashion where the rule was that fashion takes nine months so you spend a couple of months in january designing it five six months getting it manufactured in asia then you'll have it on the shelves by september so you just got to kind of hope that you were right about your guess of what people want in the future and you're not amancia ortega asked why and then he got all the rebuttals that everybody gets it's going to take too long manufacturing in asia is 10 times cheaper we'd have to fly it by air not ship it the costs are going to be too high he said okay that's exactly what i'm going to do so he built the factories in spain and in portugal he had his staff trained on the floor to watch what people were buying and wearing and sketch it that day and send it to the design team to have it manufactured in the country that day of course the economies of scale were impacted so he could do shorter runs but that didn't matter because he's selling out everything and not having to go on sale it was all a paper wall the whole industry was a paper wall and amancia ortega launched zara which everybody knows now with this model of going from sketch to the rack in 15 days and he is worth 150 billion dollars because of that because he pushed on paper walls and as i went through history and looked at bernard saddo the first man to know ask the question 50 odd years ago why do we all carry our suitcases because 50 years ago suitcases didn't have wheels on them because there was a paper wall that men would never be seen dead in a suitcase bernard was in walking through an airport saw a machine that had wheels on it went home took the wheels off his wardrobe put them on a suitcase took them to a retailer the retailer said we'd never sell any of those men would never be seen dead pulling a suitcase in fact in paper wall industries there are sub industries created to protect the paper wall so there's bellboys at hotels back then there was every train station hotel or whenever you moved in public you would pay someone to carry your suitcase for them and blow their back out bernard kept pushing on this they said we will sell it but only if we sell it to women they put it on sale after he pushed and pushed and pushed men queued up and bought sold out their suitcases and now 99.99 percent of world suitcases have wheels on them all it took was one person to push on the paper wall and lastly there was a study done by i mean there's a gazillion examples of this one of my favorites also um from what's his name roger bannister who everybody told nobody could break the four minute mile it'd never been done before scientists at the time said if you try and break it your lungs will explode this is what and he wasn't even a runner and this is part of what i think paper wall pushers are they're typically quite naive so he's this part-time runner he says forget that i'm going to try anyway the remarkable thing is he breaks it like april 1987 or something but the even more remarkable thing is that within days of him breaking it a record that had never been broken before like 15 other people run a four minute mile it was a wall made of paper that looked like it was made of cement or granite but it was actually just preference and everyone had just spent their life walking around it and not trying it out so one of the attributes i look for both of my team members in founders that we employ we give this test to founders as well is are they the type to question constraints a stanford study recently showed that founders who have a bias towards believing that deadlines are optional deploy 300 roughly 300 more features than founders that don't and get to profitability 250 faster so in my company now paper walls is a slack it's vernacular it's vocabulary we use and on the way here actually posted in that channel try and get everybody to realize that the things that surround them that they think are made of cement that you know the the things that they're told this has always been the way this is how it's always been done to go up to it and check push on it and you do that don't you think like i'm just thinking back to myself as a kid yeah and like i can remember this one very specific situation my parents let me dress myself and i was creative like i've always been creative so i'm wearing like something in my hair up here i'm wearing a pigtail down here i'm wearing stripes i'm wearing polka dots i'm wearing like just the weirdest outfit and my mom loved it she was like this is how i know my daughter is going to be creative and i will never forget one of her friends that dressed her daughter perfect every single day came up to me at the schoolyard when we were all getting dropped off and she was like maggie like can i switch something around on you and fix your hair and i was like no and you have an ugly shirt on today and i was like so sure of myself and just like obviously i looked ridiculous and obviously i was like brave and didn't want an adult to come and correct me and i think a lot of the time when you think about who you are as an adult you think about the four six seven eight year old version of yourself and you can tell who those paperwall pushers are all the way back to childhood do you agree yeah and typically i think it's a consequence of being given space to fail when you were younger like being given space to make a decision it to be wrong and then genuinely a lot of paperwall pushers are have a streak of rebellion in them for some reason like the system did them wrong in some way and they have a bit of a chip on their shoulder where they like to question uh the way things are and i guess the inverse of that is if you're a people pleaser you will never push on paperwalls because people pleasers they don't like to be rude disruptive or disagree now i would say to those people pleasers you're going to be annoying either way like you're going to annoy something this is like most of the principles i think about in my life i'm like you have to think of the inverse strategy and you tend to find that the inverse strategy leads to disappointment and one of the things i always talk about with my team and when i'm talking about content creators is like the key to being a great content creator or doing really anything with your life is accepting embarrassment is the price of entry now what's the inverse strategy the inverse strategy is embarrassing yourself because you never reach your own potential and having to live with that like a broken record in your head over and over again all the what-ifs what brony where when she interviewed people on their deathbeds described as the regret of not living the life i could have lived that's also bad like yes me starting a podcast with a sock over my microphone that i bought from apple and it sounding terrible was embarrassing but so is not doing that over the long term and i think the same here which is you can push on paper walls you can ask people why and you will probably be a little bit inconvenient but you know what's also inconvenient having to fire all your team because you're a people pleaser and you weren't one of the founders that was delivering that 300 uplift and productivity and you failed that's also an inconvenience so i have a choice inconvenience or inconvenience and in the case of you know i was talking about roger bannister yeah he was a bit bit disruptive at the time he was disagreeing with the scientists about what could be done but in hindsight do we remember roger bannister as annoying no we remember him as a legend we remember all that he did because he pushed on paper walls and he is he is held up there and talked about on podcasts in 2026 as a legend not as annoying and that's how history remembers paper wall pushers they remember amancy ortega as a pioneer i always knew i was going to be an entrepreneur but it still didn't take away the nerves and unprepared feeling that every single entrepreneur has before they actually start no matter who you are starting a business can be overwhelming with the constant feeling of doing everything but nothing at all all in the same moment but now looking back on what we're building with hsr i can't imagine not taking the plunge and getting rid of those golden handcuffs to become my own boss i'm going to be an entrepreneur i'm going to be an entrepreneur i'm going to be an entrepreneur so if you're ready to join me and take the entrepreneurial plunge one of the best tools that i can recommend is our show sponsor shopify if you want to sell online or in person it has everything you could ever need to make that happen they have hundreds and i mean hundreds of store templates to pick from so that you can customize to match your branding and they have ai tools that write product descriptions and edit photos for you or if you need help with the marketing side shopify will create email and post them on your website and they'll be able to get you on your behalf it grows with you whatever stage your business is at so in 2026 stop waiting and take that leap start selling with shopify and sign up for your one dollar per month trial at shopify.com slash hsr that's shopify.com slash hsr it's so funny that you say it in that way because i think i was doing a lot of reflecting as we were going into our announcement right and the words hot smart rich very polarizing and your team was actually the team that came up with the saying for the male version of an angel which is an angelo and i think most women listening to this will realize that it's like women backing women but it also is around women having allies in men and when i first started making videos that was like i'm a hot smart rich girl here's a day in my life and like i actually looking back at that time in my life like was the most unhappy version of myself but it was like that mentality of like i am going to be that one day and so i'm going to already claim that energy and start these videos with like here is a day in my life as a hot smart rich girl and i will never forget the first time that i got ripped off of tiktok which was like my little safe space on the corner of the internet where like i don't think i was really ready to pay the price of embarrassment yet fully i was ready to do it in a place where like people didn't really know me but i wasn't ready for like the world of vc and where i wanted to be to really understand what i was doing and it gets put on this vc meme page and the amount of comments from male vcs around just like ripping me apart was ruthless and i think it just reminded me of that moment where i was like i so easily could have quit in that moment and just gone back to like okay i'm just gonna go to the status quo and there was that little paper pressure in me that was like i am going to keep going what was the first impression that you had when someone puts in your slack grace miller hey i love what this girl is doing with the name hot smart rich as obviously a male angelo an ally of what we're doing what was your first impression of that so i've got lots of thoughts that came to mind there was actually three that came to mind at the same time and they're slightly different but they're speaking to the same thing the first is back in the day when i built my first company i had written on the walls indifference is the least profitable outcome make people feel something either way because you can only take care of the to the bank like they care to hate you they care to love you but indifference when they don't feel anything about you you can't cash that in as a brand as a marketeer so that's the first thing that came to mind the second thing that came to mind is what you describe is the exact price of entry that everybody listening to this right now will have to pay to do anything to think that we can just have positive attention without the inverse is um just a fundamental contradiction about how the world and the brain and everything works if you're going to make people really care you're going to make other people really really care for other reasons and i think great brands through history create an or situation not an and situation what i mean by this is when i first met one of my investments called perfect ted who have built this matcha energy drink company then i think the fastest growing matcha company in the world i sat them down and said what we need to do for you is make sure it's clear when the customer walks down the aisle that they are a perfect ted matcha customer or keyword or or a red bull customer we will never grow this business if they're both if it's an and if they think they look at perfect ted and go i can be a perfect ted customer and a red bull customer we are not distinctive enough so you have to create an or situation and the way that you do that is by clearly unapologetically standing for something the opposite approach again becomes indifference you become sameness and the entire world is trying to pull everything in this moment you me the plants towards sameness that's what happens when we die your body right now is about 20 degrees higher than this room when you die it will become the same so we always what at all times all organisms are fighting against sameness and it requires a huge amount of energy but it's ultimately what makes companies brands people distinctive jeff bezos actually wrote about this in his last ever shareholder letter at amazon where he cited richard dawkins book the blind watchmaker and he talks about how this is just a fact of the world like your environment right now is doing everything it can to bring you back to sameness and you're burning calories as we speak to keep your ph levels and your temperature different from the environment so when you step out into the world with a brand like hot smart rich which is not sameness it's very much distinctive the world is going to expend a ton of energy pulling you back down and your job is to remain distinctive and with that will come all the upsides that you seek but it will become some you didn't choose and didn't expect jeff bezos says in that letter he the day that it gives up that fight. It will retreat to nature. It will become, you know, like the plants when they give up their fight. And so this is why embarrassment is both the price of entry, but it's also the price you pay every single day. And so you really need a framework for why you're doing this. Because that gravitational pull back to being typical, being the same, being like the crowd, fitting in, like the crabs in the bucket analogy, it's going to be strong. So you better have a counterforce that's even stronger. A lot of people will be listening now, they go, I could never deal with that. I could never have a thousand people telling me I'm an idiot on the internet. It's like a muscle. You build it when you break it. So, you know, you've got to kind of, hopefully, you know, your rise is not Justin Bieber. Hopefully it's a gradual one where you can really work on that muscle and understand what it is. And the other thing I have to say is like, I don't know what religion you follow, but just never forget the fact that you're going to die. And for me, having been really, really clear on the fact that I'm going to die someday, and it could be today, it could be 10 years from now, or it could be 50 years from now. And that not even like my great, great grandkids will remember me. It's remarkable how quick we've forgotten. And for some people that'll feel like a depressing thing. For me, it's the most unbelievably liberating thing to know that all this stuff, the stuff that I might've worried about this morning or yesterday or this week is just going to fade into nothingness. And it means that I can truly be myself. I can truly do the thing. Because I know I'm going to die. And I know when I die, none of it's going to matter. And actually what's going to end up being the most consequential thing is the ride that I had with the people that I loved. And did I live in line with who I truly am? So death has been such a unbelievably, wonderfully liberating thing. And sometimes when I look up at the night sky, when I was at Joshua Tree a couple of weeks ago, and I can see all the stars and the guy was telling me that, that star over there is 25 million light years away. And we go, wow, none of this matters. None of it matters. And I live in this dichotomy. It feels like a huge dichotomy of knowing that absolutely none of this matters at all. I have no concern or regard for my legacy. It doesn't matter. Again, all of these things would become attachments and then attachments become like a ball in chain. So no regard for my own personal legacy, no regard for what happens when I die, which means I can truly live. You said something to me last week when we were doing our photo shoot that actually has stuck with me and I've written down every single day. And I think I've said it to so many, they're probably annoyed at me at this point. You said, Maggie, you need to stop focusing on proving people wrong and you need to start focusing on proving people right. And I think my whole life, I have so focused on like all the haters, all the like the non-believers. And it was a little bit of a stroke of an ego when Stephen Bartlett, second biggest podcaster in the world, like dragon on dragon's den, like all of the compliments that you've had taps me on the shoulder and is like, I see something in you. And of course, there is an element to that where it's like, see, like I was right all along. Someone saw this in me, but it stuck with me because I think so many people listening to this are going into the new year and thinking about like becoming their best self. And then they let all of the people that are coming into their life say all of the things that are going to keep them from achieving their potential. And not all of them are going to have a Stephen. Like you say to me every single time I see you, it is my job to help you reach your potential. I see you. I didn't have someone like you for the first 12 years of my career for the people that are listening to this that are going to be swayed for another year from the people that doubt them and put all of these things in their head of why they can't do things. How do they start focusing on proving the people right instead of proving these people wrong that are trying to take them away from their mission? So I think it really starts with collecting evidence for yourself because everybody listening now, including you and me, we both have almost this bookshelf. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed Sponsored Jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, autobotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection, are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Like a bookshelf over there, this bookshelf of books on it. And every single book is, you can think of it like evidence. And it's evidence that's come from your childhood, what someone said to you, how things then played out and how you interpreted them. And the only way, and that bookshelf, the problem is it's, yes, they're books, but they're also instruction manuals. They then inform what you do in the future. So someone listening now who has a bookshelves full of doubt and skepticism and things going wrong and them interpreting them badly, it's like, it's really crazy advice for me to say, like, just do the thing. Yeah. Because my words, are not greater evidence than all that sits on your bookshelf. What I need to do is I need you to conduct certain behaviors then they're going to be embarrassingly small behaviors that are one at a time going to replace those books. That is the game. And I've sat with so many psychologists that have told me about how people turn their lives around and you would think it would be like, you know, I need you to just jump off the cliff. In fact, I remember one particular psychologist telling me that he was working with a young patient who couldn't leave their bedroom. Bedrooms stacked to the walls with filth and plates and all these kinds of things. And they're scared of going outside. And on day one, what they do is they bring the hoover in. They do nothing else. That's day one done. On day two, they plug the hoover in. That's day two done. On day three, they turn the hoover on. By day 30, this person has a clean room and they're outside. If you try to get them to climb Mount Everest on day one, they would have looked up, experienced cognitive dissonance, which is the discomfort you face when you're facing a very big challenge. And they would have looked up, but by breaking it down into small steps, just pebbles instead of Mount Everest, it's remarkable how much your life can change. The advice I would give that person who doesn't have a mentor or someone to push them out of their bedroom or to push them up Mount Everest is to start stacking small wins. The reason people don't do it is because those small wins are so embarrassingly small that they don't think they're consequential. But actually, when I reflect on my podcast, my journey, I reflect on how I started. It is this commitment to embarrassingly small steps that gave me evidence about who I was and counteracted evidence that existed there before. You know, even like starting my podcast. I think people think of me starting the podcast, like I made a phone call and then I called like Netflix and then, you know, I called some big time producer. But actually, I wish you could have seen me that day. I wish you could have seen me in that white room at my old company, turning to the team, being like, I think podcasting is going to be a big thing. I have this idea for a podcast. I need to think of the name. And then me coming back three days later and being like, what about the diary of CEOs? And then me thinking about that for another day and come back the next day and going, actually, the diary of a CEO. Then that night, instead of going straight home, walking to Apple and buying a $99 microphone and bringing it home. And then the next day, taking it out the box. And then the next day, plugging it in and going, how do you edit? And then me loading like GarageBand. And there's, oh, GarageBand comes with the Mac. Then me trying to speak into it and playing around with these plugins and then cutting it. And then, you know, and then doing that embarrassingly small step. Now you've got the second biggest podcast in the world. We're adding 700,000 subscribers a month. Amazing. And if you try and jump to where I am now, the leap is so big that it will cause all that discomfort. That means you'll be paralyzed into inaction. So that's the game. It's, and you know, every step of the way, you slowly take those books off the shelf. So it's slightly contradictory advice, but it's just how change happens. And I know it's the same for you. Totally. Because it's the same for everybody. But when you're sat there looking at a Maggie Sullivan, Liz, what you, what the problem is, the 99% of people showed up recently. So they see the finish line and they go, oh, that's a long way away. They don't want to put the sock over the microphone because they're trying to figure out how to get the to stop on the mic. Like I did. It's embarrassingly small steps. And that's the only way that I know how, you know. It's so interesting hearing you say that because even for me, there was a level of like intimidation, right? It's the embarrassment is the cost of entry. Every single day. You're so right. Like having you come here to this studio with these tiny little mics and like, of course there's been an evolution, but there's still so much to do and so much to go. And I remember you saying this where you were like, if I had looked at Joe Rogan when I wanted to start, I never would be one and two with him. Right. Cause it's like, even for me looking at you, it's like, well, it's on, like I'm coming for you, but it's going to take me a long time and a lot of little baby steps to get there. But I think the barrier to entry for creators now is so low for entrepreneurs. is so long, but let's just stay on craters. do you believe that every single person can be a creator successfully not not really i don't think i don't think every single person can do everything and once upon a time it would have been really really easy for me to tell you yes but i think with wisdom and age you come to learn that people are different and they have you know one of the biggest things that stops people being able to do anything whether it's entrepreneurship or creating is self-awareness it's do you actually know what you're good at and how you're received and if you don't then you'll continue to aim at the wrong target and going back to your other point because i think this was super important is that when we started the podcast we knew we were going to do really well once we got going and the reason we knew we were going to do really well is we realized we'd discovered a secret philosophy that everyone else ignores and it kind of goes back to what i was saying about embarrassingly small steps which is this whole principle of one percent you'll be very familiar with this because it's um there's two phrases that i use most popularly in my office and in my companies and that is failure we try and increase the rate of failure and the second is this idea of one percent i remember realizing that in order to catch the biggest podcasters in the world and to build the biggest show in the world all i had to do was care more about the small stuff because this goes to the point as well about momentum like creating psychological momentum there's a study i often talk about where harvard business review asked people when their best day of work was and they asked them to keep these diaries every single day and just write what happened that day and at the end of the study in harvard business review they found that they had a lot of people who were motivated and they found that the people who were most motivated had experienced a tiny win even if it was a one percent win like a tiny little thing so what that speaks to is this idea that if you start finding tiny little ways to improve it creates the feeling like we're going somewhere which overlaps with what sir david brailsford taught me who's in the first chapter of james clare's book atomic habits he told me that when he went into the british cycling team as the performance director and he saw that they were down and out and depressed and they didn't believe in themselves and they were the laughingstock of the world they were the laughingstock of the world and the thing that turned them around was of course focusing on the one percent which was making the bottles bigger making the pillow softer but he said to me what people don't realize is when we started finding these small wins the team felt like we were going somewhere and they stopped leaving the office at 5 p.m and started leaving at 2 a.m the power of compounding small little gains is unbelievable and so when i looked at our early progress for the diary of a seer for example and i plotted on a graph and i was like okay if we just keep changing our trajectory by one percent ways measuring the co2 levels in the room or ab testing a hundred different titles and thumbnails or measuring the impact an exclamation mark has on the title which we found out gives 0.2 percent more click-through which is fantastic using the color red and instead of using the color green for the thumbnails which gave us another 1.4 percent additional click-through if i just get kept my team focused on the turning over the small stones that everybody else thinks are inconsequential and don't matter all i need is time that's what the graph says it said that if i just keep keep kept finding these tiny little wins all i needed was patience and all of my competitors are looking for the next big leap forward in innovation in podcasting they're looking for some new youtube or some new spotify some great leap forward because that's what people think the game is but our bias has always been to aim at the small things and the great thing is you find more of them it creates psychological momentum and sometimes when you turn over small stones you find huge prizes i think i told you about like a 10 second change i made to my podcast that increased the amount of people that subscribe by 300 percent and i'm not even sure if that's true but i'm not even sure if that's true but i'm not even sure if that's true what kind of team would bother to a b test 50 times a 10 second change one that's focused on the small stuff i think about this in almost every field of business of investing is can you out care the competition on the smallest things because really it's it's the smallest things that you can do something about and they're easiest to find so because it's it's so obvious to me now it's so obvious to me now but it still doesn't no matter how much i've said it to people it still doesn't appear to be obvious to anybody i think it's so obvious to me now but it's still doesn't appear to be obvious to anybody i think it's so obvious to me now but it still doesn't no matter how much i've said it to people it still doesn't appear to be obvious to anybody i think it's so obvious to me now like you would think it was petty that when jemima changed the air freshener in the diary of a co studio and posted it on our slack channel she got like 25 fire emojis most people would think that was petty but then danielek walks in and goes man it smells so good in here i go one percent we're one percent closer and it's for you know all i need to find a hundred percent of those to start compounding at least a rate of a hundred percent so that is most of the game but again you've seen compounding return graphs right because you're an investor and you know you understand finance and you know you've seen compounding return graphs right because you're it's slow then it's fast and because it's slow then it's fast you look at any compounding return graph it's like this and then whoop like a hockey stick so what kind of maniac unless they've developed a religious belief about one percent gains is going to go through three years of flat well yeah well that's going to be number one soon is this where your quitting framework comes in when you're not seeing improvements from one percent growth so i'll give you the full quitting framework and this is really for anybody that's thinking about quitting a thing whether you're not quitting a job or a relationship whatever it might be typically you're thinking about quitting for one of two reasons it is either hard and again i keep these very broad or because it sucks and i define them differently hard is the challenge is difficult sucks is it's more of a mental feeling and emotional element so you're running a marathon you're on the 22nd mile you're raising money for a charity that means a lot to you that's hard you're thinking about quitting the question becomes is the effort that i'm putting in worth the rewards on offer mile 23 i'm raising ten thousand dollars for a charity i love is the effort worth the return if something's hard in life and it's not the rewards aren't worth it quit if it is then stay going down the other side of the framework you're thinking about quitting something because it sucks the next question should be is there something i can do to make it not suck if there isn't so if it sucks and there's nothing you can do to change that you should quit if there is something you could do marriage counseling speaking to the ceo speaking to the board of directors to make it not suck the next question should be is the effort it would take to make it not suck which is going to marriage counseling worth the thing on the other side of that effort so you're having a difficulty in your marriage you could change it you could go to therapy but is dave worth it like is the relationship with dave on the other side actually worth the effort we would take and in my former business social chain that's exactly where i got to i felt like there was something i could do to make it not suck but the effort it would have taken another 18 months of arguing with these you know very um serious german people on my board about the future was no longer worth the return the financial return and the emotional return on the other side of it i thought i could change it i didn't think the effort would be worth it to to fight to change it so i quit however if you do think it's worth it you should stay and fight because all things in life whether it's relationships or even good things require continual effort for course correction and that's how i think about quitting i think generally one of the real toxic narratives in society is that is that quitting is for losers and it appears to be the case in my life but also in the lives of the people that i've interviewed that they are remarkably good at quitting like really remarkably good at quitting when all external evidence tells them that they're a maniac for doing so like almost every story of someone that i sit with on my podcast involves this one moment where objectively they were an idiot and i say idiot because all of the evidence the logical financial incentives orientated towards them staying at university staying in that high-flying job leaving for 10 years darren brown to go and do magic tricks on a table in the middle of nowhere but again this goes back to the point about why embarrassment is the price of entry i can relate a lot to that because i think it's a common theme in my life like both in relationships calling off an engagement moving into calabasas with my stuff in storage having no idea what i was going to do like to work relationships where i was making like 120 000 right out of school at salesforce best performing bdr in the entire world and i was like i'm not going to do that and was like i am so unhappy making 100 cold calls a day i've learned what i can here i now need to go to a startup environment and fail a little bit i went from making 120 000 a year to 60 000 a year and people thought i was crazy they were like you have the dream job you work nine to five you make 120 000 a year you're loved you're recognized you get all of these different things from salesforce like why would you go and do that if i think back to other piece of quitting it's also being really brave and it's taking really big risks and it's being able to say no to something that's not good enough because there's something better for you and i think so many people listening to this especially at this time of year will be like it's good but it's not great but shouldn't i just stay in the good and it takes a very brave confident person to be like i'm actually gonna go from good to find great i have now 12 years working in either corporate or startup environments i've invested in 20 different companies i've had 40 people sitting in this chair and i can really confidently say women specifically are really afraid of taking the same big bets that like men don't even think twice about what is your advice to someone that's listening to this that has that they have a good life they have a good life they have a good life they have a good life but it's not great and they either need to quit or find confidence to go and pay the price of embarrassment to go live their dream life like what do you say to them it's so interesting because i interpret it like completely differently and this goes back to the rationality point which is when i dropped out of university to start my business that was not brave brave was staying because i'm so clear on my north star jeopardises it, including spending three years being miserable. is the risk that is the risk that requires great bravery i think i'm a coward because i won't risk the most important thing which is my happiness and so really i think the answer to the question if i break this down to first principles is are you really really clear on what what your north star is like because if you're really really really clear on what your north star is in your life what matters to you the most and i would hazard a guess that it's happiness then anything that jeopardizes that is the risk that is a huge risk you're taking so staying at sales force with with that kind of clarity is the biggest risk one could take in that scenario because it wasn't making you completely happy and it wasn't going to make you completely happy off into the future it wasn't going to completely fulfill you into the future and you know going back to the thing i said about you get one life and for me the greatest risk any of us could take which requires bravery that i just don't have is to is to live an unhappy one an unfulfilled one you know like that's craziness to me but that's just the way that i i think about it and i'd rather struggle i'd rather go back to shoplifting chicago town pizzas than to go back to university you can see with the the way that i think about situations why it's kind of like hard for me sometimes to understand why anyone would sit in misery for seven years if they have a choice i have to say a choice because everyone's life isn't very nuanced and they have kids and mortgages and all kinds of things but if you have a choice to make a step in a different direction the greatest risk is not doing that why do you think you're like that i think you need frameworks for making decisions in your life or else you won't make the decision someone else will and emotion is such an unbelievably powerful force you know that if it makes the decisions through your life it won't walk you to fulfillment it'll walk you somewhere else it'll because it'll you'll be dragged by fear and a life dragged by fear is not it's not a life that ends up with the things i think any of us want and i think a lot of people are dragged by fear that whole life is just pulled through by the powerful limbic system that's going to pull you it's like 80 in charge of the of the factory so if i can just stay in with you know my logical decision making frameworks as much as i possibly can and think from first principles i think i get better outcomes and i think this idea of thinking from first principles is a really important one that i should probably try and explain which is whenever you're faced with a decision instead of accepting convention's answers to this decision or something that's been done before or someone else's opinion what you do is you ask yourself what you know to be true for sure right now for you and that's what i'm trying to do and that's what i'm trying to do and that's what i'm trying to do in this situation so even with podcasting right let's use that as an example when i started as a podcaster everybody told me that in podcasting you put it on audio on apple and spotify and that's how podcasting works now from first principles i go where are my audience that's a first principle question and the answer to that question is they are on youtube they're on all social media platforms another first principle question would be how am i going to tell new people that this is a good idea and i'm going to tell them that this is a good idea and i'm going show exists well they're on social media okay so we need to do clips that's a first first principle solution they are on linkedin on email so we're going to need to show up there as well and when you think from first principles you end up building better solutions and solutions that are more designed for the present moment when you reason from analogy which is how it's been done you make sameness and i think about the same in our lives like we're told that in a relationship and in marriage it needs to look this way with the white dress and you walk down the aisle and you do it like this and then you say these vows and then you these are these are solutions made a hundred years ago for for someone else's life in a different time when they didn't have technology in a different world have we pushed on the paper wall to check that these solutions are still the right ones for me and that's really what first principle thinking does it just pushes on some of these preferences and traditions to see if they still hold and the same is in my life like people say go to university get a job get a mortgage have kids the end i guess death the end retire the end can i check can i check and the way you do that is by asking those questions what do you know to be true right now about this particular problem set we want to just use the blueprint that others have handed to us so first principle thinkers or paper will push is much harder to do but they get all of the upside as someone who was once told by friends you're either going to be a millionaire you're going to go to jail i'm just trying to find like how is this 17 18 19 year old thinking in first principles like when did that switch happen for you it's gradual all the principles that i care about the one percent thing i talked about pushing on paper walls fate all of these things it's like they start as polystyrene and then you stress test them with real world scenarios and over time they go from polystyrene to being made of like titanium and then they become my religion because i've stress tested them so many times in so many contexts to know that this principle really really matters and i think principle thinking is critical because it's kind of like you can go through life guessing at stuff or even when i speak to your audience now i could give them like tips and tricks and tactics but that is all a fish what they need is a fishing rod a fishing rod is going to help them navigate over the long term and this is why i think of principles i try and find principles i try and write them down understand them find stories from history that have cemented them and then i try and live them and instill them in my team because if we're principled as a team i don't need to be there like everyone knows one percent's in right now for example they'll be thinking about one percent some paper wars so it becomes our religion and then that's culture this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses setup required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus this episode is brought to you by indeed you're ready to level up your business but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load it boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast cut through the chaos with indeed sponsored jobs get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast terms and the job for indeed sponsored jobs i get so many headaches every month it could be chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more botox autobotulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine it's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month prescription botox is injected by your doctor effects of botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking breathing eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk side effects may include allergic reactions neck and injection site pain fatigue and headache allergic reactions can include rash welts asthma symptoms and dizziness don't receive botox if there's a skin infection tell your doctor your medical history muscle or nerve conditions including als lugerig's disease myasthenia gravis or lambert eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects why wait ask your doctor visit botox chronic migraine dot com or call one eight hundred four four botox to learn more you just said something where you said i pull from lessons of history and i fundamentally believe that there are three types of craters there's craters that build from their personal experiences there's craters that build from their expertise and then there's a mix of both you are top creator globally in forbes top creators 2025 time magazine's first ever time 100 craters list that is this year if you had to pick how you've built to be one of the top creators globally do you build out of any of those categories i guess the third one resonates with me the most is i just am all parts of me on online so and it's reflected in the conversations we have on the diary of a ceo like if you looked at my youtube algorithm you would see me watching such a wide variety of things from ai to we're trying to understand business to psychology to childhood from like it's a reflection of who i am i'm just very very broad i am i am a bit strange because as a creator i i mean i guess my background is in business because that's where the the first couple of people knew me from and now people know me as a a lot of people know me as a podcast which i find super weird it's like so weird to me if you know me you know i hate wasting money especially if you're in the phase of your life where you're cash poor equity rich because you're in the midst of building something incredible taking advantage of big purchases like rental payments is a non-negotiable for hsr girls with our sponsor built every rent payment you make earns you points that you can use towards flights hotels lift rides purchases from amazon.com you name it and coming in february built members will also be able to earn points on mortgage payments too so no matter where you live you'll earn rewards and get something back and built benefits list is incredible 45 000 restaurants and rent payments are available to anyone who wants to fitness studios pharmacies and so many other partners sign up for built to get rewarded on one of life's biggest expenses head to joinbuilt.com slash hsr that's joinbuilt.com slash hsr and make sure you use this link so you know we sent you 2026 is the year we get hot smart and rich but there is such a thing as being too hot and that's what happens when you run as hot as i do when you sleep at night i didn't realize how much of a difference your sheets make truly one of the biggest upgrades I made was investing in sheets that actually keep me cool so I can get the eight hours of sleep I need to perform at my best this year. I kept seeing Cozy Earth everywhere, so I finally tried them because I could return them hassle-free. HSR, not only do these keep me cool at night, but they are the softest sheets I have ever felt. Perfect that they now sponsor my show. And now is the time. It's the new year, the perfect moment for a reset. And if you don't love them, you can return them hassle-free. I'm so excited to be partnering with Cozy Earth because they stand by their product with a 10-year warranty. So visit cozyearth.com and use my code HSR for 20% off. Can I tell you the thing I'm the most fascinated with? What's that? So people, I think, define their personal brand with three pinned images that are on their Instagram. Yours are steven.com valuation. You did a partnership with Prince William for Homestead UK to end homelessness in the UK. And then there is Jimmy Fallon. Why are those pinned? I think the first one, the steven.com announcement is pinned because it's the 90% of my life. And steven.com is my entire focus at the moment. The Prince William thing is probably just because I find it so crazy that Prince William asked me to help him with this stuff. And that we're working together on Homewoods. So I think that's the first one. think it's just so crazy and my parents are such big fans of the royal family like the only time i've seen my dad cry in my life was when diana died so my mom's nigerian as well so she's just a huge fan of the royals as well and then jimmy fallon again it just couldn't it's very strange for a kid like me that was born in botswana moved to the uk and lived in plymouth which is like the countryside to be sat there it's very strange especially considering i'm not like an a-list celebrity and i'm not like an actor or anything so it's very it's very surreal for me to be in that frame like the iconic jimmy fallon show so it was um yeah it's crazy crazy it's so interesting because i think the more that i get to know you the more that i'm fascinated with you like all of the hobbies that you have and i think you do have a really amazing way of turning things you're passionate about into entrepreneurial pursuits right but there's one element of your life that i feel like i would love to talk about which is your relationship with mal no comment i'm joking can i show you something sure so she sent this i was asked to send you a surprise message which feels so ironic because you are usually the one who surprise everyone else i know you don't often pose to reflect on the journey so um yeah i'm just reflecting and remembering i never ever met someone like you that is so optimistic so composed looking forward moving creating imagining what's next with so much passion and depth i see the man behind the questions the interviews the conversations and i don't often tell you that but you really are a superman really a superhuman even on those days where you feel so down you show up and your people advise it's insane the depth in your mission the impact that you have on millions of people listening to the conversation that you have every week but also impact that you have on your family your best friends is truly precious and we are so proud of you i love you when were you speaking to my girlfriend hahaha how does that make sense yeah she um she she knows me better than anybody and yeah she knows me better than than anybody because she just gets to see it all so i actually learn more about myself from hearing things like that and generally when she says things i like listen very intently because you know probably like your partner they they really understand the full picture more so than anybody on planet earth understands the full picture so yeah she's um she's very special and she's she's very very special and in many respects she's like everything that i'm not she's just like an angel that fell from the sky that's kind of how i describe her to my friends we've been together for almost seven years now and she's very much just like she's what i'm aspiring to be in every sense of the word she's what i'm aspiring to be more like you know what's one of the most interesting conversations i thought you had was with tim ferris and at the end of the interview there was probably like five ten minutes left you talked a lot about why a lot of male podcasters have remained single and i want to play the other side out because i think you've now been in a committed loving relationship with mel for seven years yeah why i mean there's several ways i can answer this question because it's true i i am pretty shocked that a lot of the major podcasters i'd say really outside of rogan don't have kids they don't have a partner they kind of seem to be in not very stable long-term relationships and i think the reason why i've chosen to take a different path is because i know rationally logically oh my god bring the emotions to you i know that as it relates to happiness fulfillment everything that matters in life it is the better path to take now of course it comes with its costs but i i've sat down with some of the most you know important psychologists on the in the world and people that have one particular guy who's around the longest ever study on human happiness study shows that over 100 years you know the people that started the study have actually died it's been going for so long that the thing that delivers the highest amount of happiness over the long term for men and women is the quality of the relationships and as part of that your romantic relationships not only does it extend one's life but it makes everything much more worthwhile and so logically i'm not going to be able to say that i'm not going to be able to i know that um it's the right thing for but you know the the other answer is just like she's so great she is she's like i don't believe and this again is me being sounding super logical and rational i do not believe i could ever find anybody better on planet earth ever now that might also sound romantic but it's also very rational like i don't believe i could ever find someone better and i want to be a father i want to have lots of kids we're trying hopefully soon and i think it's the path to a better life and it's a lost it's a lost thing in our society people are having less kids and they're seeing relationships as being things you can throw away and they're trying to avoid all commitment there's a narrative of people trying to avoid dependency don't depend on anyone stand on your own feet be your own boss and i think this is a mistake because when i think about human beings and why they are the way that they are we got here from dependency we got here from relying on our tribes from relying on other people in fact the defining trait of being a human the reason why we can take on the grizzly bear is because of cooperation but society because it sells very well is convincing us that independence is happiness and i look across my friendship group and i go actually my friends with the greatest amount of independence that are freelance that are working in a skyscraper in dubai that are financially free that have no kids no partner no puppy they are the ones that are the most and then there's someone like my brother who's a year older than me jason who has three kids under the age of six lives in the countryside in lithuania with his family with a job and with commitments and with people depending on him one of the most stable happy fulfilled people i know i think this idea of like maximizing freedom and maximizing independence in many respects is a lie and that we need to we need to re-anchor ourselves to something bigger and that can be you know you and then your family and friends and then your community and then your nation and then for some people it's even like their sports club or whatever and then it's their religion and then maybe it's something more bigger like the universe but we need to be anchored and mel helps me anchor and then i'll have kids and a family and responsibilities and dependencies and i think that's what it takes to both be a good man but also a good human being i'm very excited about depending on other people and having other people depend upon me and i'm really like i really am about to start a mission to try and take this on i really think it's a bad thing loneliness is through the roof gen z are unhappy than ever before they have less friends than ever before less connections less dependencies less responsibilities i don't think this is something to celebrate i would like us to depend upon stuff i don't know why maybe this is why the universe brought us together to do this but there was an article that came out did you read the article that was like it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend now by vogue no and i had a really adverse reaction to it because it was all of these women basically saying like it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend that treats you badly which it is for sure but it got taken to a totally different context which is around like you don't need a man you don't need anyone independence and like as much as i totally agree with like the underlying mission of that article i actually believe fundamentally to your exact point like we are better people when we have relationships and we have community and there is for ambitious women that's like men aren't keeping up there aren't people that are going to be able to make your life bigger and better and have it be an abundance driven dynamic between the two of you. It's all about win or lose. And I always look at every single relationship as win-win. How can you find a win-win situation? And so it's a mission that like I do take on myself as well, because I think with my partner and I were a really great example of like, I have my own world. I have my own life. I have my own thing. I have my own financial independence. Like he makes me the best version of myself, but like I have a life outside of him and he loves that and vice versa. What do you think it takes to have a dynamic like that, or like you and Mel? Cause you seem to have a really good one based on that voice note and just seeing you guys interact. Like that's been probably one of the best parts of getting to see you of like what you're really like is seeing the woman behind you. I think if you build anything, it's rough and hard and everyone in a relationship or anyone that's got a family will understand this. But again, we're optimizing for a culture where you avoid hard things and discomfort and conflict. And I think even with AI coming into the picture, it's going to become even easier to have a relationship with something that requires no friction. And there's nothing in my life that's worth it with no friction. Like even going to the gym, everything in my life that I've, that I've done that's meaningful and worthwhile comes with friction. So the first thing is realizing that me and Mel, when we have conflict, that this is not a sign of our inadequacies or our lack of love for each other. It is an opportunity for us to understand that more and for us to grow. And it's me and her against the conflict, not me versus her. And this has really, really helped us. This continual reminder that we're on a team against the problem and that generally knowing that conflict is to be expected. It's normal. And even though Instagram says otherwise, arguing about small things is like healthy. I saw something the other day on Instagram. It was like a couple talking about how they'd never had an argument in three years. I was just like, fuck, they're so fucked. Like you are so fucked. If you haven't had an argument in three years, you are, you're seriously screwed because you're, you're probably suppressing and avoiding. And the key to conflict resolution is this question, which is, does each conflict make you stronger? Does it heal to 101% or 99%? If you're having conflict that heals to 99%, it's a matter of time before this thing ends. If you're having conflict that heals to 101%, which as Mel often says to me, the roots are getting deeper, then you'll be fine over the long term. Um, and I said, this the other day and people found this to be not a good thing to say, but I don't care. I think I have an opportunity and a responsibility to model what it is to be a good father and a married man and committed. And I think with the platform I have, I do take on that responsibility. Someone's rebuttaled me the other day and said, you shouldn't live your life for other people in that way. But I very much live my life the other way. And I think that's a good thing. And I think my life for other people with what I do anyway, like I try and have conversations that I think will benefit them. And so can I also be an example that I think will benefit young men where you can see someone who is, has a family, you know, is in a long-term committed relationship and is honest about the trade-offs and the difficulties and stuff. So I, I'm excited about that season of life, which I'm trying to get into now. What's the birth order of you and your three siblings? Are you the youngest? I'm the youngest of four. So growing up, did you always feel like you were the problem solver and like taking on responsibility? Or that's something that you learned? I was the failure in our family. I think I was written off as, he ain't going to make it. Of course, my brothers were geniuses. They're like, you know, rewriting the textbooks to make them harder because they didn't think they were hard enough and getting a hundred percent in the textbooks that they'd rewritten to make harder. They were super geniuses. My sister's super smart as well. And then there was me who like was falling asleep in lessons. Turns out I had ADHD, wasn't paying attention, wasn't attending school, was intercepting my report cards so that my parents didn't know what I was doing. So I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. When I got my grades back from my GCSEs, I just put them in a scanner and changed them and gave them to my dad. Like I just, school wasn't for me. I got expelled. Then I got unexpelled because the school said I made them a lot of money because I was doing lots of little businesses on the side for the school. School wasn't for me. So I was, I think written off, but I think the parents didn't care. I think they thought we've had three good ones, so we can, we can, we can have a, a runt. So where does that come from then? I think it's ultimately the most important thing that ever happened to me because being the youngest meant that I got more of that independence and freedom. I had a lot of shame that we talked about earlier, which means room to fail. We were also the black family in an all white area, which meant I had a ton of shame. So you've got lots of room to experiment because your parents are now so busy that they're not coming home. And then you've got huge shame, which is this driving force. And you want to solve the shame problem. Space and shame means you start doing things which build evidence and evidence is self-belief and self-belief at 14 years old, because you managed to sell out a nightclub for an under 18. event at 15 years old and 900 people came and you came in with a bag of money is like a really amazing thing to learn at a young age which is i can have an idea and then in nine days i can walk through the door with a huge bag of money oh the world is bendable like i can just bend the world oh interesting goes back to the whole thing about paper walls like at 14 years old realizing that there was there wasn't a gap between idea and execution like the realization of that thing is just an unbelievable thing to learn at such a young age and i had to learn it because i wanted the same stuff my friends my rich white friends had and the only way i was going to get it is if i did something this is probably why my friend said to me you'll either be in prison or a millionaire because i was gonna do something i was gonna do something honestly i can't believe that i made it either because like you adhd school was really hard for me and i had to try really really really hard but i'm so glad that things were hard and to your point like having friction and not having everything come so easily to me made me the person that i am today where it's like paper wall pusher and one percent better i think this is such an important question which is like how moldable and malleable do you believe the world is and i think everybody listening now will have a different perception of how much they believe they can grab hold of the world and like putty like bend it into the shape that they want for themselves i think steve jobs said this in his commencement speech about his most important realization in his life was realizing that you can bend the world in the direction you want to i think that is the thing how much do you think you can influence the world but your world bend it in whatever direction you want at a very young age i learned that it was extremely bendable and actually that was my only chance was bending it myself because when you have two brothers that are geniuses you compare and you go i mean we understand the value of anything by the context in which we see it so you've got two geniuses there and you've got two brothers that are geniuses and you've got two brothers that are at home and then you've got this kid me so you go oh okay so i'm gonna be broken poor uh okay so if i try and compete with them on academia university school i'm gonna be broken poor so i need a different way and they used to stand there when i was younger and they used to have a debate a bet i think the bet's still going who would be a millionaire first they would never involve me in this bet it was just jason and kevin arguing continually through my childhood who would become a millionaire first and i'm thinking i need to find a different path i'm gonna go through the bushes i'm gonna go through the jungle and at a young age because i did those um events and stuff and did a couple of deals with like vending machines i realized that all of these people my um that were my age were going to be adults with me and that was i just remember that 14 years old remembering oh my god so these people are going to be the adults that i'm you know contending with and if i can get them to come to my party or use my vending machines now at 15 when i'm 35 i'll just do more of that stuff i'll just make things and then sell it to them and i'll be fine and that was the real moment where i like school was like over for me i really gave up on school at that point there's a video on you this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration blog or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and you'll be fine and that was the real moment where i like school was like over compatibility and availability varies 18 plus this episode is brought to you by indeed you're ready to level up your business but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load it boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast cut through the chaos with indeed sponsored jobs get a 75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply hiring now then this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting four hours or more botox on a botulinum toxin a prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start it's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month it prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo prescription botox is injected by your doctor effects of botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking breathing eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk side effects may include allergic reactions neck and injection site pain fatigue and headache allergic reactions can include rash welts asthma symptoms and dizziness don't receive botox if there's a skin infection tell your doctor your medical history muscle or nerve conditions including als lugaric's disease myasthenia gravis or lambert eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects why wait ask your doctor visit botox.com chronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more maybe for people watching you can play the video yeah and they take an ant and they take a biro and they draw a circle around the ant and the ant immediately thinks it's trapped like you're looking down on that piece of paper from a bird's eye view and thinking this ant could just run across this biro mark but the ant is convinced that it's trapped it has accepted that as its limitation they make the circle smaller with the biro the ant thinks it's trapped again and it won't leave that smaller circle and then they do the same thing with a spider they put the spider on a piece of paper they draw a circle around it and as the spider is running to escape the the biro uh they're drawing they're drawing more and more circles and it's kind of weaving them weaving them dodging them not stepping on them and then you see this one moment in this video where the spider steps over the biro and you see this like moment of realization where the spider realizes that that that barrier that it had previously accepted as being a wall it realizes that it's bs and it can never be trapped by the biro again it just walks over it and i think about that in all of our lives there is a circle you've drawn around yourself right now even if it's a big one and there's a circle i've drawn around myself where we've told ourselves how far someone like us that comes from where we come from and with all the best available information and role models we have how far we can go and we have accepted it even me even you even elon musk even everyone listening right now and that the key just like with the ant is to realize that that is a figment of your imagination and that it exists and your job i think is to continually put one foot over that line and then it expands again and at a very young age 14 15 that's exactly what happened i realized that the world was bendable and that these barriers weren't weren't real things they were just preference and tradition and that i could i could write new ones because i'm not smart not good at math not good at was never good at science not good at english none of these things still can't spell still think i'm dyslexic because i can't spell simple words like i can't spell the word entrepreneur i must have written it like 10 000 times so i can't spell it so what is the thing the thing for me was just a genuine belief that things were possible if you told me to go to the moon next week i genuinely believe that there's a way there's a way i'm one email away from the person that's sending the rocket a persuasive fucking email to going to the moon that i think is the thing and i don't know how you give that to people they're gonna have to fail their way there they're gonna have to stack up an undeniable amount of evidence one small experiment at a time it's super tough you know what's interesting the further i've gone in this world the more i've realized how hard it is to give people advice because when i was younger i would say cliche platitudes all the time like just keep going never quit blah blah blah and the more i've gotten older and the more i've been able to interview people and understand their world and what torments them and those negative thoughts and i hate myself and everybody hates me the more i've realized that giving someone else advice from your own wiring and psychology and neuroscience is the best way to get people to understand their world and what torments them and those negative thoughts like it's so reckless and it's so naive so much of when i try and give people advice these days it's all about like what can you do to learn the lessons you need so that you can change your life you said something like the more interviews i do the less sure of what i know and it's interesting because i feel similarly around investing when i made my first investment i was like i'm gonna be a millionaire off this investment like this is working and now 20 investments later it's like i am so doubtful of everything i see all of the problems that they are going to run into but like when i was early on and naive i was like this one's making me a millionaire this one's a billion dollar company and it was really interesting when they put that in the research talk around the interviews of like do you feel that way you feel less sure about what you know now 500 interviews in than you did when you first started yeah and in your example you've never been wrong as an investor when you start right so i think the more you've been wrong when you thought you were right the more you accept that you might be wrong right now yeah that's the same with interviewing it's i thought i knew x thing and then 47 people in a row and emerging science and research showed me that x thing was not the truth and you know so then you live in a permanent state of having strong beliefs but holding them loosely because you're well aware that you've been wrong 500 times in the past and that everything is is open to change and that's i mean that's the definition of science it's it's a bunch of hypotheses that they continue to test and the more you know the more you realize you didn't know as well so the more i discover things about the gut microbiome or psychology or neuroscience i go wow for the last 30 years i've just been freestyling but there's 47 trillion bugs in my belly and they're like running the show and running my serotonin and controlling my mental health and there's this like gut brain axis you know you go wow this is magic so it's like doors just keep flinging open and you're going into rooms of just you know more to learn which is a beautiful thing and a wonderful thing and how i think we should all live our lives we should live our lives in the pursuit of that kind of growth and ignorance we should live our lives as happy sexy millionaires and hot smart rich girls exactly that okay steven burlap we have to finish with some rapid fire okay okay what is the last thing that you put in your mind when you think about it what is the last thing that you put in your so the last thing that i put on my credit card i shouldn't say this when's this coming out january 7th okay my engagement ring hopefully i'll propose but it's i'm gonna propose in around christmas time so oh my god are you serious yeah you just got the same reaction to seeing the video that we made so happy for you yeah oh my god wait i could do a whole other episode on this right time to ask a question someone tell me you can ask me whatever you want okay wait i'm so happy to hear this because i've heard you talk a lot in podcasts where you were like i wasn't 100 sure that i wanted to get married but i know it's really important for mel yeah when did you decide so it goes back to it goes back to a whole thing about first principles i i wasn't entirely convinced that marriage is the best structure for uniting two people because there's so many flaws to it and the whole process of you know you have to go to court and ask the court if you can get out of the thing if it doesn't work out and how that and then you look at the stats and go 50 of people fail and would i buy a tv if i knew it was going to blow up you know 50 at the time so it felt like a broken thing to me from first principles and i wondered if there was a better way also again this is me being super honest i'm like massively avoidant of commitment and i have been since i was a kid because my mom and my dad didn't look like they were in a good relationship i thought my dad was trapped i've always been avoidant of commitment so that's part of the reason in those early episodes as well the diversity where i'm like i'm never gonna get married and then you grow up and then you meet the right person and you and you understand you understand things more and it's important for mel but also i want to get married too you know and so what am i waiting for if if what i said is true that i don't think i'll find a better person and if it will give her stability in our relationship etc and we want to have kids and the kids be stable etc then i concluded that i have 51 certainty that it makes sense you know i have so many things that i could talk to you about but i paid for the ring yesterday i think i think we're yeah so this is quite front of mind it's quite difficult to find a ring you know where did you get it well about four years ago she was talking about engagement rings with a friend and i was looking over her shoulder and looking at the ring and i was like oh my god i'm gonna get a ring from her and i was like oh my god i'm gonna get a ring from her and i was like oh my god i'm looking at her pinterest and just like saving the ones she said she really liked so i've had this folder in my phone for like three or four years of the ones she said she liked and we were in new york yesterday and there's a jeweler in new york that my some of my um friends that i really trust told me to go see and they've made uh they've made the ring for us can you describe the ring let me see yours it's it's quite similar to yours so it's it's like a big diamond and then i mean this is how the fuck am i going to describe it what they're all the same aren't they emerald cut round cut oval no clue does it look like this it's oval okay love oval gold band or silver band or platinum like does it does it look it's got it's a thin band with oh shall i show you yes please okay with little diamonds around the band as well because she wants to wear another ring with it yeah she wants to stack it i heard this four years stack it so she can stack it with a gold or silver ring whatever she wants if it's diamond are you gonna do a big proposal or no okay no i'm not gonna post about it i'm not gonna instagram it i was gonna say are you gonna pin it to your profile none of the world's business okay i'm really not about that like it's not my it's not my thing to bring my personal stuff to the world generally like i talk about mel sometimes on the podcast because i'm talking about our personal stories but i'm not like out here posting our relationship okay i think some things can be i am so excited for you wait i have to ask you something you said avoidant i used to be very avoidant before my current relationship i'm now secure and i actually would say i lean a little bit more anxious than i ever thought i would because i was extremely avoided in relationships yeah has your attachment style changed with mel yeah and it goes to what i said about evidence your avoidance is just going back to the bookshelf analogy it's just a bunch of books you have on there that have given you evidence that the right approach and model for the relationship is going to love is to be avoidant now what sometimes happens with avoidance is someone gets over the castle wall they try and make the castle wall as high as they possibly can no one's coming in someone gets over the fucking wall and they change you from the inside one book at a time they give you new evidence that actually this relationship isn't something to be fearful of and you're not going to lose your freedom and they're not going to hurt you and that's what happens and mel is mel is i'd say secure and she got over the wall and everything i thought about being in a committed relationship with a woman she i think i low-key stress tested it and it turned out to not be true so i have new evidence now she doesn't impinge on my freedom she lets me be who i want to be she supports me i don't feel like i'm in jail and so i guess i'm more of a i'm definitely more secure now than i was avoidant for sure for sure but it's been a long road like it's not things don't change overnight and you can still be triggered easily by your old style you know if something really it's i learned this generally about trauma and our attachment styles is you never really heal to zero it's always there but um it stops making the decisions but it's still there somewhere you know on a bad day an unslept day i'm sure we could bring that out of you i am so excited for you this is exactly what i wanted to hear oh my god okay um what are you excited about i think it's exactly what you said like i think if you're okay to have that responsibility i think there is a huge responsibility for men that are successful loving abundant generous kind smart to show the world that like this is another way and i think that it's been hard especially before i met my husband to like see where the relationship dynamics were going and to see the type of culture that we have celebrated which is like there's always so many options people are disposable the things that we value a lot about femininity and about women sometimes like aren't actually valued by men like you and i think you with this decision are actually proving to a lot of people that like those types of relationships and those dynamics exist and don't settle and don't that that is what is embarrassing it is embarrassing to settle but it is not embarrassing to have a boyfriend and it is not embarrassing to put yourself out there and it is not embarrassing to try and i think you signaling this step is part of the responsibility that you are talking about it makes me really excited it's so crazy that it's rare it is though it is it is right i think that's a really crazy thing and even the idea of settling like if you think about our great grandparents great great grandparents they grew up in a village they didn't have mobile phones a lot of them probably never got on a plane before and flew anywhere and so they fell in love at higher rates or similar rates of satisfaction with someone in the street and they lived a great life and when you again when you go to their satisfaction or happiness they didn't find ken in miami and that didn't make them any happier so there's clearly something that comes with this whole idea of um of feeling like you have too many choices that actually means that you don't appreciate any of the choices and i mean they've done the studies in supermarkets where they put out like 20 jams and then they have someone walk in and ask them to pick a jam they either don't pick one because there's too many options or they don't pick one because there's too many options and whichever one they pick because there was 19 others they didn't pick they're less satisfied with their option whereas when they put five jams or three jams people are much more satisfied with their option and realizing that this is part of human psychology means to me that like bro when you when you're with someone and they're they're they're great and yes there's problems unless yes you could be with someone else that's probably not going to scream at you for the first six months at least work on it like you work on your business invest in it and um yeah and have kids and don't be so nihilistic and don't make it all about yourself and don't just focus on the bag and you know have responsibilities and have babies that are going to scream at me and and wake me up in the middle of the night even though i'd rather be building my whoop score you know like sounds like a good idea to me it's so funny because there's it's it like one part of my brain is like the evidence i have now tells me this is a terrible idea because it's going to come at a cost of things that i right now enjoy and then i have to have this religious belief that there's this life i've never experienced with these upsides i've personally never experienced i know what i'm giving up but i don't know what i'm getting when i'm talking about like being a father having five kids and getting into marriage i know what i'm giving up because i've got it but i don't know what i'm getting so i have to i have to i have to really go to what it is to be a human and i have to say my ancestors my wiring is designed to get tremendous meaning and joy from taking on this responsibility and from stepping into this commitment and so i'm going to do it is this the first non-logical decision you've ever made in your life it seems to be non-logical but it's actually perfectly logical it just requires it just requires it just requires a little bit more thinking that's why i went right back to my ancestors and was like how am i designed and you know i've sat down with my ancestors and i've been with childhood psychologists and all kinds of psychologists that talk about what happens when you have kids and the emotional changes and the meaning and fulfillment and i've interviewed the guys from harvard that have done the longest study on human happiness so i've got the evidence to know that this is the right path for me but i haven't experienced the upside yet i mean of course you can only experience what it is to be a parent when you are one you can only experience what it is to be married when you have done it so i have to believe in the evidence that i have but i understand why people don't do it because especially when their life is good why would you why would you sacrifice that what for something you've never seen and experienced doesn't seem to be doesn't appear to make a lot of sense you know this is why people aren't doing it the richer they get the more abundant their life becomes the less they want to have dependencies or commitments and so they don't and i i can't blame like each to their own honestly and it's not to say that i'm going to be happier than someone that doesn't have kids or isn't married it's not to say that at all but for me i believe that i'll be happier being married and having lots of kids and i think i think especially the commitment to a woman in a marriage is some is a positive thing to model and i think it's also positive to model being a dad that you know has people counting on him i am i think i'm so taken aback because like as i've gotten to know you as the person behind stephen bartlett like host and entrepreneur it's like it is something i just went through and it does change you in a way where i think people are like how's married life and you can say that surface level answer of like it's great but like it did change me for the better and i think you know my husband and i talk a lot about purpose and i think i have a life's purpose in hsr like i get the messages from women and i know what this conversation alone will do for them like for me having my own purpose outside of that that's like my family the thing that like i always tell my husband is my worst fear was being as driven as i am which is why we scored 98 on the culture test together or i matched you but having no one to share that with like that was legitimately my worst fear because i knew i was going to get there like i have fundamentally believed since i was little that i was going to be successful and then my worst fear was like i'm not going to be successful i get there with who and with like for what yeah same yeah same and honestly like having my husband now he says this to me all the time because he waited till he was 45 to meet me to get married to do the thing and he said it is the worst business decision i will ever make in my entire life you are the worst business decision but you are the best decision i've ever made in my life yeah everything is a trade-off and i think when we're looking for perfect trades where there's no downside we end up living a significantly worse life it's just about being intentional about the trade and it sounds like he was really intentional about the trade he was making he was well aware that it might hurt his business might make him less productive and you but the upside was yeah all the all the things that make the success worth it anyway like if you've ever bought a big house or if you've ever bought something nice the first thing you want to do is come experience it with people you love you want to invite people over get them to sit in the front seat and so yeah one of my real deep fears for my whole life was that especially knowing how avoidant i was that i would be successful which i was pretty sure of when i was younger and then i'd be lonely you know and that sounds like a horrible place to be i think the only thing worse than being lonely is being lonely in a big house or a private jet it's so interesting because one of the big conversations i've had with like a lot of executives and media recently is like all storytellers are trying to answer a question right and if you think about like what love is blind does to our society in america they're answering the question like can you fall in love without seeing someone and i really thought about that as it relates to hsr like what is the question that i'm trying to solve with this and i really think it's can you have it all and i ask everyone almost that's sitting in that chair can you have it all and the answer is always like you can but not at the same time and whatever and i think with this last part of this conversation that was supposed to be rapid fire but i'm glad it came up was like i think you're showing people that you can that you can have it all and I don't want that to feel like a lot of pressure which I know it is but I think yeah it signifies something more than just like you and Mel deciding because even of itself like that's amazing and I'm because I know both of you and I've gotten to see her soul in like such a genuine way like she just radiates love like I'm genuinely happy for the two of you but on like a bigger scale I think it does from a male's perspective and one of the big things for this year with HSR is like you know 30% of our listeners are actually men and I speak to women a lot because like I know who I'm talking to and it's great that there's peripheral listeners but I don't want to lose like who this is really for right and I think those people that are listening to this are going to feel something hearing you talk about you making the decision to get married as someone that could easily choose not to and have an easier life maybe and I just know that like you sharing that is going to make more of an impact maybe than anything else you've said which is crazy but what do we all want at the end of the day love connection relationships so I'm really happy that you shared that with us thank you I think that no I think that's all really astute I think that's really really on point and I don't think I would have an easier life you don't think so no it goes back to what we're saying like choose your annoying or choose your hard I'd have an easier life in some respects and then I'd have a much harder life in other respects and on balance I'd rather have an easier life by getting married and having kids and being a father and versus the the easy life of you know more freedom but then dealing with the difficulty of being lonely and unfulfilled and flippant relationships and you know I don't think that's an easy life for me so okay can I keep going on my rapid fire okay you could only pick one for the rest of your life Stephen yeah a 7 a.m call time or never drinking ketone IQ again I would say 7 a.m call time okay was that hard for you no not really because I do want to wake up earlier I do want to wake up early I think it'd be good for me okay we can go for runs in the morning please what is your favorite episode of Doak ever um I'm gonna say episode 101 with Mo Gordat but just because it was the most shared episode ever and because he wasn't a celebrity so it wasn't being shared because he was a famous person it was just so profound and he said so many things about life and happiness that have stayed with me and the one I always talk about is this idea of expectations and he said to me that you're happy in your life with your expectations of how your life is supposed to be going unmet and you're unhappy when those expectations go unmet and I use this as a framework to think about why I'm unhappy at certain moments in my life and it's always without exception because I had an expectation of how something was going to happen and it's currently falling below then and this also gives us a framework for being able to control our happiness which is managing one's expectations of ourselves of others of our partner of our dog when they poop in the house or whatever it might or someone cuts you off in traffic and this is why gratitude has become and has always really been seen as one of the great answers to happiness because gratitude is the realization that your expectations are being met in various areas of your life right now and if you think about everything that's made you unhappy in the last week I guarantee it's all about an expectation you had about something so yeah Mo Gordat episode 101 okay you can only pick one for the rest of your life eggs or watermelon eggs really yeah damn I watched your men's health video and you were like I love watermelon I do but eggs come on eggs are like protein and it's just water I was absorbing myself in your world basically for the last few years but then really over the last few days have you ever worked with someone who's such a big super fan I don't know I don't know I don't know you do know a lot about me which is which is really a compliment you know it means a lot to me and I'm very appreciative of that you're honestly one of the people I marked on as my inspiration it's so crazy how weird that feels to me it feels it makes me uncomfortable because okay yeah makes me very uncomfortable but I'd rather it be you than someone else I think maybe it makes me uncomfortable because of the last question which is then it creates an expectation and I just I don't want to meet anyone's expectations it's like you can't put that pressure on yourself because we all have to manage our own expectations and like before you got here I was so nervous I was like the whole week I've been really nervous like even my brother-in-law is calling me being like okay you got to calm down like it's gonna be okay you know and right before you walk down here I said on the vlog like I just want to get rid of my expectations because whatever happens happens this is supposed to be fun like this is this is supposed to be fun and as soon as I did that all my nerves went away I let go of the expectation of what I was expecting and even to recap it like I don't even know if this was what I was expecting but it's better you know and like the feeling that I have leaving it is so much better than what I had come into it with and so even though you feel an expectation on that it's not up to you to manage other people's expectations because I'm your biggest fan and now I work with you and like have this special access it's up to me to manage my own expectations it's not up to you that's beautiful fave podcast that isn't yours or a flight story show it would be they're like true crime podcasts okay it's basically what I listen to I watch a ton of youtube I don't really listen to podcasts I know it sounds crazy I don't really listen to podcasts it's rare that I listen to podcasts very rare is that because you don't want to get influenced by what they're doing no okay I just prefer to watch youtube and watch videos about specific subjects and probably a little bit shorter but I do listen to podcasts sometimes it's just when there's I like the all-in podcast okay here we go I do listen to them but I watch them on youtube yeah okay if you could title this season of your life what would it be called it would be called liftoff probably a lot of things going on obviously just you know steven.com is launched as a business and that's I'm building all the foundations of that company and then you know in the whole marriage kids realm we have liftoff so it'd be liftoff a lot of starts a lot of things starting all at once it's quite scary you know it's my favorite saying what's that when you're on a rocket ship don't ask what seat you're on just get on and go and on honestly I've always like when people have asked me about you I'm like he's on a rocket ship and I didn't ask what seat I'm on I just got on the fucking rocket ship and waited for a liftoff so the fact that you just said liftoff is literally crazy I know this is one of your favorite questions to ask candidates when you are hiring so after achieving so much success steven bartlett can you explain your biggest achievement like you're 10 years old my biggest achievement bar none and it's so easy it's so easy to say I'm not going to say I'm not going to say I'm not going to say this question for me is falling in love with someone then falling in love with me and us building a relationship together bar none it was the only thing that I didn't think I could do so it's the it's the thing that I'm most proud of and the thing that I I cherish the most and I say to mel all the time I just check with her I say sometimes I'm like do you still believe that I would delete everything from my life and I would delete everything from my life and I would delete everything that I am or my business or my success my bank balance to protect this relationship and I ask her this often and if she answers yes then it's evidence that um I've correctly prioritized the things that matter the most and so she's been saying yes many times in a row recently so I'm happy about that well it wouldn't be an interview without making me cry so steven thank you for getting hot I love how you say my name by the way I know I say it wrong but like it's fine it's iconic so I'm not switching thank you so much for coming on sweetheart can I ask you one more thing of course how can hsr help you right now helping to push into the world this narrative that independence isn't all it's cracked up to be and that there's a risk to independence there's a risk risk to everything in life there's always a trade-off so when people tell you about standing on your own two feet you don't need anyone you don't need a boyfriend whatever it would I think it'd be really net beneficial for society if we all collectively just questioned this a little bit and thought deeply about the value of dependence and relying on others and being part of something whether it's a religion or a community like like this community there's huge value in that and even your community you have one of the most incredible communities I've ever seen like isn't that evidence that isn't it great to like depend on other people and to be part of something so the the thing I would ask is that people when they encounter the narrative that is the antithesis of this to just push back on it and to let's make dependency and commitment sexy again yeah done love it if you're starting a business there are certain things that are so fun to think about y'all know I love a mood board so everything that relates to the creative the name the brand the website the vision board but then there are the things that make you pause and ask am I even doing this correctly or do I even want to be doing this like forming your business the right documents, keeping your personal information private. 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