Stephen Miller’s Promotion, Big Tech’s Reality Check, and Guest Harvey Levin

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Live from the Orpheum Theater in Los Angeles, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. All right. Before we start, I'm going to thank our sponsors. Our title sponsor is Beehive, the platform for building an audience and a business around your point of view. We just started the Pivot post there. We love Beehive. From newsletters and websites to podcasts and communities, Beehive brings all your content all together in one place. It's the only one of these platforms I would have been on and proud to be on. Thanks. Also to our official sponsors, Tanium and Odoo. All right. We're going to start off with our guests, which we did in Minnesota with Senator Klobuchar, who is now Governor Klobuchar. But today, she was amazing. You should listen to it. We want to do something a little more Hollywood. So our next guest made his name chasing celebrities out of restaurants. Recently, he's been showing us that politicians are just celebrities with worst publicists. So we want to talk about this because Harvey Levin. Harvey Levin is someone who really has really evolved over the years and done all manner of interesting things. And a lot of his stuff, I have to say, his coverage, the coverage in Washington is quite good and asking a lot of important questions, which I was, I'm really fascinated about where it's going. So we'll find out. So please welcome the executive producer and founder of TMZ, Harvey Levin. Harvey Levin. Harvey Levin. So Harvey and I met each other a long time ago when I was at the Wall Street Journal. I did a profile of a very nascent little site called TMZ that I was noticing was growing very quickly and was doing some interesting things online. I was so frightened by her because she is small but fierce. And it's sort of like Cracker Jacks. And I wasn't sure when we first interacted. I thought she was going to tear me apart. Yes. And I didn't. Because I was really interested. No, you were really great. In the business. Because it was sort of, I was looking at all kinds of new things. And this was in the early internet. But let's start now, right now. Trump is the first president who was a TMZ story long before he was a political one. Did covering him as a celebrity for decades shape how the media covers him as a president? And how did you think of it? Because you wanted the D.C. Bureau for a long time. And it finally happened. And your big story was Lindsey Graham at Disneyland, I think. Disney World. R.I.P. Disney World. R.I.P. But he looked great with that wand. And TMZ viewers flooding you with photos and members of Congress on vacation during the shutdown. Talk a little bit about Trump as a celebrity moving into presidency and why you guys decided finally to go to D.C. As for Trump, I knew him for 20 years. And I knew him in a totally different way. I mean, he was the star. The apprentice. He was, you know, a businessman. And I never thought of him as a politician. And he was a very different person from what you see. How so? Because he was the most laissez-faire guy that you could imagine. I'm gay. He couldn't give a shit. He would talk about other people and just live their lives. The way they want to live their lives. I saw him treat people in his building really well. And people who worked there loved him. And to a person, the people I know who knew him and then saw this radical change when he ran for office. We were, everybody was just dumbfounded. And, you know, what Bill Maher said. Was just so smart. Because he's, he acts the role of president. It, there's, it's, I think that there is an act here. And I'm not saying that I don't ascribe bad motives to what he's doing because I do. But the person that I knew before is just not this guy. And something either changed or he's putting on an amazing kind of Barnum and Bailey act. Well, I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure that's the case because a lot of it is quite toxic and angry and has repercussions all over the world. For sure. But when you think of covering that, politics has become a celebrity thing right now. So talk about going to Washington. Why did you decide finally to cover it? And your reporters do actually ask questions. A lot of Washington and the reason I didn't cover Washington and covered tech was because it was so incestuous the way the press and politics were together. And they were at the same parties. And your reporters really do ask pretty good questions of these people as they're moving. Some of them are funny. Some of them are tough. Because some of it is interesting. Talk a little bit why you decided to go there. Well, I have passion for politics. And I wanted to do this when TMZ was part of Warner Brothers. And twice I was on the eve of launching it and Warner Brothers killed it because they were nervous. And they thought that we'd piss off a congressman who had a regulation. That Warner Brothers needed and the congressman would vote against it. So they blinked at the very end. And both times they shut it down. This time I was able to do it. And the reason I wanted to do it is, you know, you say incestuous and I think it is. It's also cookie cutter. That when you look at reporters in D.C., they are cut from the same cloth. They kind of look the same. They ask the same questions. The cadence of interviews are the same. So what I wanted to do for a long time was zag. And I have these two guys who have worked for me for a long time. And they are, you know, I mean, if you looked at them, you'd call them ragtag reporters. They dress differently. They're young. They're not politicians the way they talk to each other. And they don't interview. And that is, to me, the secret sauce. They don't do interviews with people. They have conversations with people. And there's a huge difference. They don't have five questions in mind when they talk to somebody. They just go with the flow. And the flow can go in all sorts of places. And a lot of people can't do it. These guys, I just, I love them. And they are brilliant. And in two days, they won. Congress over. And people wanted to talk to them. And what they found was that when we posted this, it got millions and millions of views because the politicians showed a human side. And it doesn't matter if they're Democrat or Republican. But my guys are just really good at bringing things out because they're really, they're just authentic. Is it a good thing that politics has now become entertainment? It does. It does feel a little like the Hunger Games at this point in a lot of ways because it has real-life implications for people. And I get the idea. I think Gable News is boring. I think it is cookie-cutter. I don't think they're particularly tough. Corporate media just isn't. It hasn't been. But is it a problem that, you know, and now we have all these politicians who are very comfortable, especially these new Democratic ones, very comfortable online. Is that a good thing? Or should there be some gravity? Because there are, again, real things happening across the country. Politics and entertainment. has intersected for a long time. george murphy was a senator from california ronald reagan um gopher from the love boat fred thompson and you know and i can go on and on and you know celebrities john glenn was a celebrity and became a senator so entertainers have been part of dc right absolutely sunny bono sunny bono Sonny Bono, who ended up being kind of a formidable congressman. Yeah. And so they're not strange to politics. Entertainment and politics have always kind of intersected. But I don't see it as that. I see it as pop culture, that politics, to me, is part of pop culture. And pop culture has a big tent. And it's sports, and it's celebrity, and it's business. It can be technology. It could be anything. And so I just think it fits in pop culture because so much of what they do really involved—well, it should involve everybody's lives. And I just don't see it as strange, and I don't think it's necessarily new. I do think that stuff you did about the congressman on vacation had an impact, was really interesting. That came out of anger. Yeah. Well, it did. I was interviewing a TSA. I was an TSA agent during the government shutdown, and Congress was about to go on a two-week Easter break. And this woman was telling us that she was losing her home, her mental health was going down the drain, she didn't know what she could do with her kids. And I just got so angry. I just said, if you guys see pictures, if you guys see your congressman on vacation, take a picture, and we'll put it up on our platforms. And two days later— Lindsay Graham's at Disney World with a bubble wand. And all of a sudden, everybody started sending these pictures, and it had an impact. And honestly, I launched TMZ DC in a week because I realized this is the moment. Okay. Scott? So I think of TMZ as being singular. Like, I have trouble even identifying who your peer group is. So traditional media—and LA has paid a price for us—traditional media, I mean, we keep getting nostalgic for a dead candidate. We kept bouncing, oh, theaters are back. And the reality is media, traditional media, is really hurting. And if you were starting—if you thought, okay, I'm a talented person, you graduated from New York Chicago Law School, decided to—I know you taught for a while, and then you decided to go into media. If you were starting a media company in LA and you thought, you know, I want to carve out a distinct new property, I want to do something different, right? Go back to you're just in LA, and you want to do something singular and different. What would you start right now in the media space? What would the content be, the category? The platform? How would you approach it? Build a business 30—take yourself back 30 years ago, and you have a mandate to start a new media company. What would it look like? We're doing it. Look, I speak at journalism schools, and the idea that they're still teaching television is insane to me. I mean, television, you know, you look at news on TV, and the media. The Canadian age is somewhere between 67 and 70, and people under 30 don't have cable. Yeah. And so there are no new people coming in, and you know how the story ends, right? Death. Yeah. And so, well, and so television is legacy, and even websites now are legacy. So my focus is on social and especially on YouTube, beginning next week. We're launching a documentary a month on YouTube, and we're not only putting it on YouTube, but it's a YouTube style. It looks different, and the people— What does that mean? What is a YouTube style from your perspective? There's—it's raw—it's rarer, and there's more of a connection. The people we have just have a way of connecting. There's feedback that you get, and we can do things that you can't do. In traditional media, we can take chances and go out there, and we have an amazing documentary coming up next week, and we're going to do one a month. So my focus is YouTube. My focus is social. We have content creators that we're developing. I'm merging all of it as one, so the legacy stuff and the social stuff is all kind of merging. Do you stay on the legacy? Pardon? Do you stay on legacy? Yeah. It's sort of like riding a wave into shore. Mm-hmm. You know, if you can ride— If you can ride it in as far as you can, you do it. Right. I'm not going to give up our TV shows. Right. But TV's going to go away. It's going to go away. And I think websites, you know, I mean, it's crazy to say, but websites are legacy right now. What do these big legacy media companies do? I mean, obviously, the biggest one was the merger of Paramount and Warner Brothers recently, and you used to work for them. Two biggest studios— You too. I used to. After Halloween, I did not. Happy Halloween. Boo. Boo, David Ellison. He's fine. I'm leaving. No. No. No. It's— I've left. Thank you. So, you know what? I said what— No, I meant what I said, and I said what I meant. An elephant's certain 100%. Thank you. I have children. It's from Horseshoe. It's important. Here's a who. Thank you. So, but there's two big newsrooms. There's HBO. They've got enormous amounts of debt. And by the way, Oracle stock has declined rather precipitously, which is problematic because Daddy Bank is going down. But talk a little bit about what—use this as an example, because here's—they're making a big bet. And you've got Disney, obviously. You've got Universal. And then all the small ones. What does a company like that do? You used to work for them. Yes, as I said. Well, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if you guys watch Dancing with the Stars. Yes. But they did something really fascinating. That show was tanking. And they decided to kind of embrace social media and bring on these social media people and required them. It was part of the contract that they go on TikTok every day. And it's become incredibly successful again. The show is a huge hit. And what they've done is recast it. using relevant platforms. And you could use, still use a legacy platform. And if you can tie the legacy platform to something more relevant, it lifts the legacy. And I think that happened with, I think Dancing with the Stars is a good example of it. But I think that's a model of what, yeah, I've always had this feeling, and my office, everybody thinks I'm, they hate the term. But when we started TMZ Live about 15 years ago, what I wanted to do was blend, I wanted to blend digital with linear, the television with the internet. And I always thought, you know, you have a screen in your living room, and now you can integrate it, and you can go online and look at websites, and then you can also watch television. And I'm just thinking, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for two? And I'm just thinking, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for And I'm just thinking, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for two? And I'm just thinking, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for one and one remote for two? And I'm thinking, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for two? And I'm just thinking, why do you think, why do you have one remote for one and one remote for two? And I'm just thinking, why do you we get more views on YouTube than we get downloads, audio lessons. Basically podcasts are the new television shows with a lower cost means of production. It's just arbitraging the means of production. Also we're uglier. I'm sorry, what? Nothing. Thanks for podcasting. Yeah. What is your view of Instagram features? Are you gonna go hard at that? Do you think it's gonna be disruptive or? Disruptive how? Well, long form content will be available on Instagram now. They're clearly going after YouTube. I see it as additive. Additive. Yeah. It's gonna grow the pie. Pardon me? You don't think it's gonna cannibalize Netflix or YouTube? You know, it's funny. Our experience has been that we can, like today, I mean, we talked to Pete Buttigieg. Yeah. We put it everywhere. We put it on YouTube. We put it on our TV shows. We put it on the website. We put it on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook. And it's additive that ultimately, you know, for example, if you wanna go to a sponsor and get an advertisement, you don't say to them, this is, I mean, you could say, well, this will, you know, buy a pre-roll just on X. But what if you go to them and say, yeah, you can get 1 million views, 1 million set of eyeballs on X, but, if you work with us on all of our other platforms, you could get 7 million sets of eyeballs. Well, that's good for them. It's more money for us and it's cumulative. It's not a zero sum game with these platforms. Yeah, you're talking about being media promiscuous, really, is what you're talking about. I always say that to staffers. I'm like, be as promiscuous as possible. And you can do it in your personal life too. I don't really care. But I have thought about this a lot. It doesn't really matter. And years ago, when I was at the Wall Street Journal, I'll never forget, they were talking about doing another print version, which I was the young person at the time. And they brought me into a meeting because they're like, how can we get young people to read the newspaper? Kara, what do you think? And I said, you could tape a joint to every page. And they threw me out of the meeting. They threw me out of the meeting. And my point was, like, it doesn't matter if it's on salami or wherever it is. It's where people want to get it. But they couldn't. They couldn't get it out of the distribution system. So just be everywhere. Be everywhere. And see what works. And then abandon what doesn't. I have one more question for you. Can I just say one other thing? Sure. One of the things I found so fascinating in the last couple of years is the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial. That was dominated by TikTok. That forget about websites, forget about television, any other platform, forget about it. That was a TikTok trial. And people got invested in it. And it was just people would spew opinions. And it brought this thing to life in such an unbelievable way. Was it that different than the OJ trial, though, which was on television? Well, yeah, because OJ was just TV. And OJ was gripping. But it was television, period, television. The news covered it. You could watch this on NBC Nightly News. You could watch it on CNN. Rest in peace. You could watch it anywhere. You could go to websites. TikTok dominated it. And it's because of this user experience and this kind of-- I don't know, it was almost like a town square for people. And when I looked at that, I thought traditional media is gone when I saw that trial. This is a great message for LA. All right, so one last question I had. Amazon, the other tech player in this, just announced a Melania series, which is streaming soon. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. No. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's not a bribe at all. That's even after they spent the money on the movie that shat the bed at the box office. When you think about-- you're basically saying death of traditional media, which has been long predicted. And it's been a downward slide. That's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a downward slide. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't seem on their bingo card right now. It is. Is it? Yes. I would guess Ellison more than anybody just because of the alliance with Trump and the merger and they're going to want to see-- What happened. What happened. But as important as that is, they got a lot of other things to look at. Right. Yeah. I mean, they have got a lot to look at. Right. Although, you're going to boo me for this, I am really pissed off at Congressman Robert Garcia. No, no, but let me tell you why. When the first thing after the election is lawyer up, it's, no, I get it, I get it and they should, but the messaging is so important. Donald Trump lost the plot. He didn't get that people cared about, they wanted their lives better and that should have been the first message out of the gate. This other stuff can happen, but it's like, don't fuck it up. You won. Don't fuck this up. And I feel like that was the wrong message. Yeah. Well, as a lawyer, you're sort of giving away the game, right? We're going to get you. Yeah. I see your point. And I don't think that was what you say Wednesday. Yeah. Probably Monday, next Monday. This is fine. Maybe just issue the subpoenas and say, get your ass to Washington. I'm really sorry, by the way. No, that's all right. No, I'm sorry because you told me I should. I'm sorry because you told me I should be funny and I'm not. Oh, well, you are. Okay. Last question from Scott. So, you're a self-identified political junkie. You know a lot of these people. You're kind of at the helm of the bobsled in terms of seeing what's going on. I don't know your politics. Well, actually, I think I do a little bit. They change all the time. But did you see this coming on Tuesday and what surprised you? I didn't know it would be this big, but I knew it would be big. But Donald Trump, when he came out Wednesday and he decided to go to the ballroom and talk about the ballroom and all he did was just rhapsodize about how beautiful this thing is. I swear to God, what I was thinking was this is like when your grandfather has a bad day and you take him out to the garden so he can kind of enjoy his hobby and forget about what happened. And it felt like that to me. It really felt that way to me. Right. Yeah. When I watched that. He doesn't get it. And with Stephen Miller, he's just going to—see, my problem is I'm afraid that he's going to double down now and just defy everything. He can't be prosecuted. The Supreme Court said that. So, he doesn't go down without a fight. And now Stephen Miller is pulling the strings. So, I think we're in for trouble. Trouble. I think we're in for trouble. All right. To leave it on a happy note, are you going to miss Lauren Boebert? Well, you know, there's always another movie at a theater, right? Yes. That's true. All right. On that note, Harvey Levin. We're going to go on a quick break. When we get back, we'll talk national and local politics. We'll be right back. All right. 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Scott, we're back live from L.A., but before we get to local news, Trump is taking a break from ruining the White House decor to shake up his inner circle. Susie Wiles, is out as chief of staff, moving over to his political operation. Allegedly, she's out. Replacing her is someone said evil life-size thumb, Stephen Miller. That's accurate. Here are some of my favorite Stephen Miller jokes today. The internet never fails to deliver. Stephen Miller hasn't even heard about his appointment yet because he needs to wait for the sun to go down. Stephen Miller can't see himself in the reflecting pool. And that's not just because of the algae. Naming Stephen Miller chief of staff is like looking at a five-alarm fire and deciding the problem is a shortage of gasoline. Message from the American people received by Trump, his response, let's go with little Himmler. That's from Anthony Scaramucci, so it's not mine. What does a Miller-run White House look like? For the next two years? I want to talk about that. What is it going to be if he's there for two years? And the other one is Stephen Miller couldn't even win a primary with his family, which is actually true. His family really dislikes him. Talk a little bit about this. This was quite, I was, it's interesting because in the podcast I do with Hillary Clinton, she goes, Carrie, he's going to be more deranged because he seemed a little docile looking at the ballroom in the first day. And I said that to her and she goes, don't kid yourself. This is, this is going to be a little bit more deranged. This is going the wrong direction. And she talked about a concept about when you lose, you keep losing, you keep moving into that direction. And it becomes almost, you know, self-harm, self-harming yourself to do so. Look, I think Susie Wells, arguably, given what she was working with, is one of the most talented politico-operatives. She won, she likely orchestrated the greatest political comeback in history. And for him to bounce her, you get rid of the person, one of the few people who seems to have had any luck managing him, to someone who's enabling him or making him crazier. I remember taking my dad's driver's license away and it was a very emotional time for him. And I'm saying, I'm like, you're going to kill somebody. And the next morning, I'm like, what do you want to do? And he said, I want to go go-karting. I'm like, no, you didn't get, no, we can't go to a place with children where you can run them over. So yeah, I don't, to me, this is, you have a five-car alarm. So what do you do? You send in someone drenched in gasoline. I just don't get the thinking around sending in someone who embodies the very things that the nation gagged on. It just, it really doesn't make any sense to me. I don't get it. So what happens here? Because one of the rumors that Susie Wells is trying to force out Pete Hagseth, and by the way, there's going to be impeachment, there's going to be this good, and he's going to be impeached. From the senators, both Republican and Democrat senators I've been talking to, they're going to impeach Pete Hagseth. That's the plan. Yeah, that sounds right. And very soon, next week, Thomas Massey has put in these impeachment things. But the first thing Pete Hagseth did was say, patriots or whatever, so it looks like the circle is getting rather small and disturbing. It's Natalie Steven and Pete Hagseth. And Mario is one that's wandering around. Marco, Marco, not Mario, Marco Rubio. Doesn't really matter, he's just. I think it's going to be very interesting to see if Secretary Rubio decides to resign because. He said he isn't. Okay, every morning since he could walk, he's looked in the mirror and said, "Hello, Mr. President." That is what he wants. And right now, Trump has always been a bit of Chernobyl. Anyone who gets too close to him doesn't survive. And he's now Chernobyl where the reactor is blown. And I don't think. I think Rubio is really trying to do calculus. Can he come up with a reason to distance himself? Because all of a sudden, it looks like the top GOP nominee or the one who has the most likely prospects, it used to be Vance Rubio or Rubio Vance, but all of a sudden, it looks like it's DeSantis or someone else. Because everyone says these guys are near. These guys are ground zero for the Ebola virus right now. So, I just can't figure out what the thinking is here. And also, I mean, I hate to be. I gave myself 72 hours of joy and I've immediately gone back to the real me, which is angry and depressed and catastrophizing. I think Stephen Miller is a dangerous person. And if you think about what has really damaged our nation, it's not having a president who's corrupt and incompetent. It's been a lack of guardrails. And it's the boring shit that gets you. Barry Goldwater said this 50 years ago, that we were ceding too much power, legislative power and actual laws to norms. There were just a series of norms that the president would never do that. And then he came in and said, "Sure, I can do it. I don't need to check with Congress. I can bomb a country. I can fire people. I can cut veterans benefits. I can cut off aid to single mothers. I can cut food stamps. I can send 23-year-olds into the Department of Veteran Affairs and just start canceling contracts. If the keyword trans comes up in a contract, you cancel it." And everyone said, "You can't do that." And we found out he can. And so, the idea that we now have somebody who appears even less shameless and more. I mean, we all knew that guy in junior high school, right? The guy who became hall monitor and used it to terrorize people. So, I think he's. I would argue. You know, he's from here. He's from Santa Monica. He went to Santa Monica. He went to Sanmo High School? Yeah. Someone in the audience, a friend of mine said. Your fault. Your fault. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I think I've said. It's a bad joke, but someone said there wasn't clearly enough bullying at Santa Monica High School. In this case, I'll allow it. But one of the things that's interesting. Well, I don't quite know why he did. I was fascinated because I did text Hillary. I was like, "You're absolutely right." And she goes, "It's going to get worse because it's this circle of losing that you keep losing even more." She had a very technical, smart lady term for it. Yeah. The only thing is I think he's bored with geopolitics and domestic policy. The analogy I've used is, remember in the '80s and '90s, they had those TV shows where they said. It was capitalism on steroids. It was literally the worst of us. And it was so entertaining where they said to some middle-class dude or lady, "Here's a shopping cart. Here's a store. It's been emptied out. You got two minutes to grab as much shit as you can." Yeah. That was a good joke. And you'd watch this person throwing in stuff and then figuring out what clothes are not high value to wait. I need to go to the jewelry department. I think Donald Trump for the next 23 months and three weeks is in a snatch and grab. I think he's going to be totally focused on trying to steal as much money from the American public in terms of our reputation and our assets as possible. Yeah. I would agree. And I'm hopeful that he just ignores domestic policy, ignores geopolitics. That's my hope is he's just totally focused on, "Where's the jewelry section?" Except you have someone like Stephen Miller. To me, I think it's a little more disturbing. We're going to move on in just a second. He's an 80-year-old man in clear cognitive decline, and you have this one person with access to him who's aided by another aide, Natalie. The two of them are as tight as ticks, and an emphasis on ticks. But they are tight as can be, and they're controlling all information to the person who has the nuclear codes. So I find it more disturbing because he is not—there's nobody, there's nobody in that White House now, who is not—there's not a press secretary, there's not a person except for Marco Rubio, who has his own ambition. But the good news is, as of Tuesday, there now is an actual legislative branch that has subpoena power, has oversight power. Yeah, well, that's a good thing. And, you know, the new heads of the Senate Intelligence Committee, the oversight committees, are adults and are very prone to disagreeing and marching up there and saying, no, you can't do this. One hopes some of the Republicans will be doing that because it doesn't work. Oh, you. Oh, I know that, but that's what happened during Watergate. I'm going to move on to local news. We are not as intelligent about Los Angeles, but you just have a new mayor, a progressive, Nithya Raman. First Mamdani, now Raman. Talk about—I confess, I don't—local politics here, I don't know as well. I know where I live, D.C. I know San Francisco well with Daniel Lurie. But— Very different kind of mayor. There's all these very interesting mayors across the country. But talk a little bit about this idea of these sort of progressive mayors in these big cities, in these various— Now, she hasn't done anything yet because she's not mayor, so we can't judge her on anything as being a mayor. But there are worries, and there was a real fight there. There was a real fight between them. So talk a little bit about where you think stuff like this is, what's important. Because the Olympics are coming here. Yeah, look, I don't think Nithya Raman— I think Nithya Raman won, I think Karen Bass lost. I think it's similar to—like, I don't— And I think the false signal that the media loves is that this is some sort of referendum on socialism. No, it's not. Bass didn't lose to a socialist. She didn't lose to Nithya Raman. She lost to the Palisades fire. And also, there'll be a lot of media about how the two biggest cities are now run by a socialist. Folks, L.A. Mayor is basically feckless and neutered. This is—the L.A. Mayor oversees $17 billion. New York— New York oversees $112 billion. It's the county supervisors that have all the power. And this wasn't about socialism versus whatever the politics were. This was about renters versus owners. This was about a 45-year-old versus a 72-year-old. No 80-year-old should run the country. No 72-year-old should be overseeing cops that have to retire at 55. Enough already. This was—this was—whatever you think, like, look, it doesn't sound like it's audience there. I think socialism has never worked on this planet, the true definition of it. So I'm not a fan of her politics. What I think people mistake socialism for in terms of the momentum it has right now is capitalism with more empathy and a redistribution of social programs from the middle class. And practicing the type of socialism, at least economically—and by the way, with Mom Donnie, my attitude is let him cook. If he wants to plant trees, if he wants to be a great role model for young people, if he wants to, you know, make the city feel good, have— I don't care what he thinks about public policy, quite frankly. But to believe that this is some sort of signal about America embracing socialism, no. This was about renters versus owners, young versus old. And quite frankly, I mean, this was—Democrats didn't win this election, folks. Trump lost it. This wasn't a blue wave. This was a red riptide. And we are right now renting the people who—a war. We are right now renting the people who supported this election, specifically—and I'm switching gears—but the three groups that went hardest, hardest—every group, huge wave, right? White women under 45 pivot red to blue, right? The three groups that pivoted hardest—I mean, massive—the kind of pivots we haven't seen in 50 years were three groups. Hispanics, 28 points. Young people, 18 to 29, 30 points. Young men, 38-point swing. That's just striking. But here's the news. These are swingers. These guys— And not in a good way, but go ahead. These are the swingest swing voters in history. They're not Democrats or Republicans. Their vote is up for grabs. And the thing that scares me, and Harvey alluded to this, is the following. I think we need accountability. Absolutely. I'm looking forward to seeing the Witkoff kids in front of some committee in Congress explaining what they— what they had to give up or what dad promised such that they could get a billion dollars into their crypto fund based out of Luxemburg. I will be up watching C-SPAN really into it. For every ounce of, quote-unquote, it shouldn't be retribution. It should be accountability. For every ounce of subpoenas and accountability, there needs to be a pound of economic policy plan because those people— We need to transition. If the Democrats don't move from being the party of indignance to idealism— Those swingers are going to take another key home and another spouse home in two years. Right. So, yeah, for the wonks like us, and if you're here, you're politically motivated, have at it. Call people in front of Congress. Make people explain themselves. But for God's sakes, what's your plan for universal health coverage? $25 an hour minimum wage. Housing credits. Vocational programs. Get rid of the cap on Social Security. If we don't—we think these people are animated by social issues. No, they're not. They want to— They want a job. They want a house. They want a spouse. That's what we need to be focused on. So, in that regard, California's new governor-elect, Becerra, says his biggest priority is cost of living. Beyond that, he isn't committing to much. He says everything's on the table on taxes, energy, and health care. And he's already backing off a campaign promise to reverse medical cuts for undocumented immigrants. But, I mean, I think that is what a lot of them are saying. Even someone like El-Sayed, the thing that attracted my son to vote for him was Medicare for All. Like, it was not anything else. It was not any of the other stuff. It was Medicare for All. It was housing and things like that. So, I do think there are talking like that. You saw Tallarico right after doing thousands of interviews, and they were all—none of them were about revenge. They were all about delivery. I mean, I think the messaging is the correct messaging. But one of the issues is one would assume that Trump might have been cooperative, right, and that he would want— you know, the Trump $25 minimum wage bill, the Trump SNAP returns bill, the Trump transfer everyone bill, so transfer anyone who wants it bill, and he would be cooperative. But with Stephen Miller there, it does change the equation. This guy is, you know, the original—besides looking like Nosferatu, he is the original not wanting to cooperate. His aggression is scary. And also freaky when you see—like, there's a—every time he goes against Jake Tapper, I'm just, like, nervous because Jake Tapper's like, what the fuck? And he's just—he keeps going. It's like he does not want to cooperate. And I don't think there's a second Stephen Miller behind the scenes. Yeah, but I think—I don't want to say it's a no-lose situation, but let Trump veto $25 an hour federal minimum wage. Let him veto a commitment to Ukraine, to refund the war on Ukraine. The majority of Americans— I don't believe—understand we have totally abandoned Ukraine. So very quickly, Becerra opposed the billionaire wealth tax, which in the past—did you think that was—can he fix affordability without going after Silicon Valley money? The billionaire tax—that was populism gone wild. I live in London, and this is one of the problems of the progressive side of the Democratic Party, which I'm a proud member, and that is we would rather tickle the censors of upper-middle-class white liberals than actually figure out what's going on. We would rather figure out a way to have pragmatic growth such that we can fund social programs for low-income residents. We'd rather say, stick it to the billionaires than actually—and then watch them leave London and go to Milan and Dubai. The Treasury—we passed something called non-dom in the UK. It emotionally and philosophically makes all the sense in the world. And billionaires left, and this year they're going to collect less than the Treasury. So a—and by the way, billionaire taxes or wealth taxes, I get the logic, they don't work. 13 to 16 countries. Europe that have passed them have repealed. So alternative minimum tax? Absolutely. But we have to be honest. You're paying 13.5 percent if you're an upper-income earner here in California. It's got to be worth it. And this isn't popular. But is the question, do you have to raise more revenue or cut programs? The answer is yes. And for all the populist rhetoric about how to spend money, somebody has to be—I personally think—we were talking to a senator and now a governor like Klobuchar in Minnesota, and I said to her backstage, if I were you, I'd become the Saudi Arabia of the digital age and welcome all data centers. It's cold as hell up there. They have power, and they have massive land. They don't need to put these things near cities. If we want to pay for our Navy and our food stamps and child tax credit, you have to have economic growth. The best message Democrats could do right now is say, we're open for business. And sensible regulation and accountability builds great businesses. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. They wanted to unplug—they unplugged San Onofre. And what happened? The next year, we spent $350 million more on power generation and put millions of tons of carbon into the air, but the activists celebrated. And they were going to unplug Diablo, which is 14 percent of electric power. Great. I hope blue people and activists are really excited as their electricity bills in California are now 60 percent higher than the average in America. What you are talking about is the way this was rolled out. the data centers, as you and I have talked about long time, which was completely predictable, is the way they were rolled out, it was NDAs, it was Elon Musk rolling over citizens and doing whatever, or Kevin O'Leary, that moron in Utah, accusing people of being Chinese communist officials. Instead of doing things with the communities, it created an anger, which was expressed in this election. And it's not so much that, I think, you know, one of the things that when I was talking to people in Virginia, there are hundreds of data centers in Virginia. It's just the way this was done out. It has to be done. One, closed-loop water systems. Two, no NDAs. Three, guaranteed property taxes. Four, no, every rate increase will be paid for. Closed-loop water. Everything. And so I think that's where the discussion begins and how it should be done. But it certainly shouldn't be decided on by the seven AI companies who managed to get to the White House for lunch every Tuesday. Exactly. And that is the issue. And I think you're right. Democrats have to look like, not pro-business, but like, look, billionaires, maybe we won't do this billionaire tax, but alternative minimum tax, you're going to start paying up your fair share of taxes. Corporate people, you're going to start paying up your fair share of taxes. There needs to be thought. If you were to describe the economy into three buckets, its owners, shareholders, its earners, the workers, and its consumers, pretty much every piece of legislation in the last 40 years, from Democrats, Republicans, has done one thing. It's transferred power and prosperity from the earners and the consumers to the owners. Full stop. As a percentage of GDP, corporate profits have never been higher. As a percentage of GDP, wages have never been lower. It's pretty basic. Why on earth? I mean, there's just some obvious solutions here. An analyst who works for me and makes $180,000 pays $9,000 a year in Social Security tax. I make a lot more than that. I pay 9%. Let's flip it. You pay $9,000 a year. I make $9,000 a year in Social Security tax. Until you get to $180,000, and then you start paying 6%. We need to reverse the flow of capital and opportunity from the earners and consumers to the owners through antitrust. I mean, it's the boring shit that moves the needle here. It's tax policy. There's a $750 billion tax cut. I'm going to have to stop you soon, but keep going. Fund the IRS, for God's sakes. Collect the $750 billion. The biggest expense in America is not the Navy, or it's not the military. It's not interest on our debt. It's the $2.2 trillion in loopholes we give to corporations and rich people. There's just some basic fixes. Bernie Sanders, stop. Okay, we're going to get to that. So we need to take a quick break, and we come back, how big tech and the markets are responding to the blue wave. Support for this show comes from Delete.me. The size of your digital footprint is bigger than you think. Every roam on the web, socials, emails, forums, retail sites, the list goes on. You leave behind data. Unfortunately, all that info is vulnerable to data brokers who buy or scrape other people's data to sell. Delete.me knows your privacy is worth protecting. 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That's joindelete.me.com slash pivot and be ready for what comes next. Learn more at tanium.com slash pivot. That's t-a-n-i-u-m.com slash pivot. Hey, y'all. It's Ested from America Actually at Vox.com. We know that you have big questions about the world, and so do we. At Vox, we focus on covering the things that matter in your life and the things that make you curious, whether that's the big politics questions of the day, climate solutions that might actually work, or hopeful news in cancer or Alzheimer's research. We believe that journalism made for the everyday curious person can make a difference in making a better world. And if that sounds like something you want to be a part of, Vox now has a brand new app, and it brings all of our journalism together in one place. Go to vox.com slash app to download today. Back live from L.A. Democrats aren't wasting any time lining up investigations of big tech. Possible probes include Trump's use of Musk's grok to plan the Maduro operation, Apple hosting tracking apps used by ICE, meta-requiring local governments to sign NDAs on data centers, everything Doge did, speaking of the IRS and where the data went, that's another one, the different meetings, everything, all these things, in anticipation of subpoenas, Washington law firms are meeting with executives and several are pitching to become Musk's personal counsel. Talk about this, because as of this taping, the markets are taking a breath after Thursday's brutal sell-off of tech, which wiped out about $2.5 trillion. Chip stocks led their recovery with a strong jobs report helped. Anthropix IPO is now a big test. Major investors are skeptical it can hit its $1.5 trillion valuation. As of this taping, the markets are taking a breath after Thursday's brutal sell-off of tech, which wiped out about $2.5 trillion valuation. Chip stocks led their recovery with a strong job. Talk about these two things, because they're clearly, you know, from those CEOs, those tech CEOs standing in the front of the inauguration, which was to me one of the most reprehensible pictures I've ever seen, because they were in front of elected officials in the cabinet, even though the cabinet is, I didn't mind them blocking those people, but that's fine, they shouldn't have, they should have been in the front row because they were elected. And so, um, what, what is going to happen here with these, uh, with, obviously there's been a big memes about, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is now going to be, you know, uh, drinking kefir and, um, wearing earrings and calling themselves they, them, um, what, what is actually going to happen here with these companies? They're going to be much friendlier to Democrats. Of course, I myself have gotten a lot of calls from them recently. Um, and before they didn't call me, I'll be going to a lovely Facebook party on Tuesday in DC, for example. I'm going because I make them super uncomfortable. Um, but what happens now, and especially with the markets not knowing what to do. And the only other thing I would say is someone asked me this morning on a radio show, they're like, well, the markets are really now this AI bubble is getting, and it's the voters that did it. I said, no, it's these ridiculous Ponzi scheme fundings that did it. And Wall Street realizes the time has come to stop them. So talk a little bit about this with all these, the different interacting stock market, the number of voters, the IPOs and these subpoenas that are going out. Okay. All right. Is that enough? It's all interrelated. I believe the biggest myth, uh, since 1945 and the GOP has done an amazing job since Reagan of branding themselves as pro-growth and pro-business. They're pro now it's largely people have figured out it's pro-billionaire, not pro-business. Cause if you look at economic growth, if you were to average the economic growth and job growth of democratic administrations versus Republicans. Democrats have democratic administrations have actually kicked the shit out of Republicans on job growth, stock market, GDP growth. So we've done a bad job of branding the thing that spooked the market. I think one, I think a lot of it is this, they were just looking for an excuse to let some air out of the bubble here. And that might be a good thing rather than a crash, if you will. But the thing that spooked the markets is that 41 of 42 measures on the ballot that were anti data center, 41 of 42 passed. The, the compute companies or the pure played, the pure play levered AI companies, whether it's anthropic, whether it's open AI, whether it's core weave, the compute companies that are totally focused on AI and then levered up with a lot of debt that got scary or that has gotten the selection looks scary for them because if they all of a sudden run up against populist rhetoric that basically shuts down their business, the companies that have not done that poorly are, I mean, quite frankly, Apple, Amazon. Amazon, Microsoft, you know, the big guys that are diversified, to a certain extent, and this is the sad thing about regulation, is regulation, while it feels good, tends to be a moat for the incumbents. Yeah, that's what people do. And that is, if you look at, I mean, basically Bezos and Zuckerberg and Nadella and Sundar are all saying, yeah, shut down all new data centers. I've already got my compute. Yeah, yeah. And it's the new guys that need incremental compute that are really screwed if this, so unfortunately, regulation ends up, quite frankly, buttressing the advantage of the current incumbents. And you can see in the performance the last few days, there's a bifurcation while wind is coming, some oxygen is coming out of the market on the whole. The guys that's really hurt is the new guys who are very levered and a pure play on AI, because Amazon's a diversified business. And then the best performing stock of all the MAG7 companies is Amazon. Year to date, in 2026, is the player that decided to sit out of the AI arms race. Apple. Apple. Yeah. So I think the market is just responding. It's hard to get a signal on two or three data points, and I think it's still trying to figure it out. But I would say, again, to Democratic, to my progressive brothers and sisters, be careful what you wish for. Because think about the hyperscalers. They're planning to spend it. One of the things I hate, I've been on a bunch of public boards, and I've been on a bunch of public boards, and I've been on a bunch of public boards, I say that because I'm desperate for your affirmation. I want to sound more important than I am. But I hate stock buybacks. I'm like, no, no, no, no. We're not out of ideas. Let's grow. And by the way, the public should hate stock buybacks. I think stock buybacks should be taxed because you want companies being promiscuous, hiring more people, taking risks, buying property, plant property equipment people, right? We had massive stock buybacks the last 20 years. And now these guys are convinced that AIs, the future, and they're spending a trillion dollars on capex. By the way, that's great for the economy. And if they're taking the risk with their companies and their balance sheets to pump a trillion dollars into the economy, we want some of that juice. Every state should want some of that. I think what they're worried about is that the revenues don't appear, right? You know, that it becomes a version of what happened to the first internet crash, except in a quantum level. Let me read something, actually. What I do think is happening is this popular and voter-fueled anger towards tech and what it does to society. And this includes social media. And let me read something Ed Elson posted on Threads, which I thought was great. You've trained him well, and he's now much smarter than you. Of the more than 40 data center proposals on U.S. ballots this week, only one passed. Americans resoundingly reject them. This is partly why AI stocks are tanking. We can debate whether data centers are good or bad for the local community. There are genuine pros and cons, but that might be besides the point. The truth is that this is the first time regular Americans ever wielded leverage over Silicon Valley. For decades, they've been powerless, powerless to monopolization, regulatory capture, and unprecedented societal control. Now Silicon Valley needs the American people's permission for something, not just something, but the very thing they bet the farm on. And the American people's answer is a simple one. No. This is a dramatic shift in power, a dynamic Silicon Valley never experienced before. It'll be fascinating to see how it plays out, which I think was great. I think that's pretty much says it. So speaking of that, I do think. I'm sorry. Can I just. I know you're going to get angry at this. You know who's been amazing at saying no and making everyone feel awesome? What? Europe. And by the way, Anthropic, founded six years ago in America, would be already one of the three most valuable companies in the world. One of the most valuable companies in Europe. And here's the thing. We have a tendency to look at everything through a shareholder lens. The railroads benefited all of the U.S. and humanity, and a bunch of companies went bankrupt going at it, have at it. A bunch of companies went bankrupt and there was a crash in the market with the internet, and we've all done better. No company's made a lot of money, really, in vaccines. No company's made a lot of money producing jet manufacturers, commercial jet manufacturers. I believe the big winner of AI is all of us. All of us. Because I do believe the majority of those companies are going to go out of business, and along the way, we're going to have a big market correction. I'm going to get a lot less wealthy, and you're going to figure out ways to have a better life with AI. That's okay. Scott, as long as it's not decided on by seven of the same men in a room with Trump. I'm sorry. No, I know you love this idea of the Gilded Age. Great, good governance. Absolutely, have at it. But they don't want good governance. And the Gilded Age was followed by the Progressive Era. This is where we're headed. I think Ed is 100% right. I'm going to disagree with you and just move along because I'm running this show. That's why people tune into the show. By the way, 93% of GDP growth has been capex from the hyperscalers. I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be thoughtful regulation, and you shouldn't make sure that these are good for the communities. But folks, be careful what you wish for. All right. At the same time, the creators are saying it could have a 10% chance of killing all of us. We should have some guardrails. The person who's going to get the most attention here, and this is our last item, Elon's had a bad week. It's getting worse. Texas Governor Gina Hinojosa says Musk can work with the state, but on our terms, she's asking Texas to hold off on a possible sale of a state park to SpaceX. Meanwhile, and I know, listen, I've seen quite a few of them here in Los Angeles, but the Cybertruck is done. Musk says Tesla will wind down production in Texas, around the middle of next year, to make room for its cybercab robo-taxi, the robo-van. As if. Sales have been falling almost since launch. It's less successful than the Edsel, which is true. It's sold a lot less. Some of them, Elon bought a bunch of them too, so we don't know the real sales. To top it off, the White House said SpaceX donated the Starlink service, but records show the Pentagon paid SpaceX nearly $1.2 million for Starlink work at the White House since last year. Incoming Democratic investigators will want to know why. There's a great story in the New York Times about the beginning of the end of Musk's political power. He spent, of course, $500 million on the midterms and got back nothing. Nothing. But I don't know if you know this, he's very wealthy and the amount of money he spent, if you were a millionaire, it's about $400. So he has plenty where that came from. And he's lost $80, $90 billion in value right now, so have a lot of the tech moguls. But does he just buy his way back in by 2028 or not? Your point's the right one. I think one of the first bills that should be proposed is campaign finance reform. We like to hate the politicians, but hate the game. The person typically, until recently, raises the most money wins. What's very interesting and heartening about all of this is that someone can spend almost half a billion dollars and the ROI just seemed to plummet. The candidate is bigger than the capital. Look, I now, I've gone, speaking of Europe, I think a lot about the relationship between money and happiness. And the reality is there is a relationship. Upper income people are happier than middle income who are happier than lower income. That's the bad news. The good news is that it tops out. Once you get to the middle income, you're going to have a lot of money. To a point, if you live in Los Angeles where you have a home, can take nice vacations, absorb an economic shock, send your kids to good schools, have good health care, you get no incremental happiness for anything above that. In LA, that's probably about a million or two million bucks a year, by the way. But where I am now is that in a capitalist society where they just become so obsessed with the idolatry of the dollar and innovators, that power, so much power can cede to unelected private individuals that the adage of power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts is more true than ever. And I now believe that really progressive taxation is our Kevlar against billionaires who are turning off and on warfare technology as Europe's been invaded. So we need first bill out of the gates, campaign finance reform. And I'm now of the mind, and I'm going to sound like a socialist here, and I'm not. America was capitalist in the eighties and in the seventies, and the top tax rate was 80%. And by the way, if you get into that top tax bracket of 80%, you're not any less happy because you're making so much bank that your happiness has already peaked. So we have become out of control in terms of one man, a private citizen's ability to control the government and make decisions that only elected officials should be allowed to make. Yep, I agree. And he's become a cartoon villain, and he really has become that way. And it does, it doesn't really matter if it's Elon or any of them. I always say someone's like, oh, you don't like Elon. And that's not actually the case. I don't think if I liked him, I wouldn't want him to have that much power. No individual should have that much power. No individual should have that. And he is not elected. He is unaccountable. And he should work on his, not the cyber truck, obviously, because that was a shitty product. But he should work on those kinds of things and not have this. It would be a really good thing for him and for the rest of us for him to go away for a while, get off Twitter. But he should work on those kinds of things and not have and stop talking. I'm Bridget Reid. And I'm James Walsh. The Alexander brothers moved in a world of multimillion-dollar homes, exclusive parties, and powerful people. Behind that glamorous lifestyle were years of rumors and allegations that they were committing sexual assault. In our reporting for New York Magazine, we investigated what people knew and heard from women who came forward to tell their stories. Now, that reporting is the basis for a new three-part docuseries, The Wolves of Real Estate, The Alexander Brothers. You'll see exactly how privilege protected them and how they were finally stopped. Stream all three episodes now, only on Peacock. Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher. And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice-weekly podcast. That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening. And I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that. Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment. And Scott is a prediction machine gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading. That's right. So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's Right, you can follow us. And your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week. Boom. Whether it's writing, podcasting, or starting a business, sometimes the best way to learn how to do something is to just start doing it. Beehive is a publishing platform that helps you find your audience and your voice. It also helps you manage your website, track subscriber growth, dig down into your analytics, and build a community. And when you're ready to get revenue flowing, Beehive lets you offer paid services. Connect with advertisers through the ad network, manage direct sponsorships, or sell digital products. You don't need a huge audience or a fully formed media company to begin. Start with your expertise, curiosity, or a subject you think deserves better coverage. Beehive gives you both a place to publish and tools to find your next readers. All you need to bring is your unique perspective. I'm excited because I am about to start a Pivot Post Beehive newsletter with Scott Galloway for Pivot. I really like the platform for a lot of reasons. Especially because it focuses in on the creator more than anything else. And I really appreciate that about them. I'm very excited to start up Pivot Post on Beehive. And it's the only place I would do it. Visit beehive.com slash pivot. That's B-E-E-H-I-I-V dot com slash pivot. And start building your newsletter today. Kara, on all these tours, does surprises for me. And the last one, she brought my fourth-grade. girlfriend. Debbie Brubaker, who it ends up went on to be high school valedictorian and the marry a woman. Insert joke here. But let's put a picture up. Kara travels and works harder than any person I know. This is Kara's luggage. And I would describe this not as luggage, but a cry for help. And I'm very into appearances. I want to be more impressive to people. I want to be more interesting to men and more attractive to women. And the brand that does this in luggage, they're not a sponsor by the way, is Rimowa. So I went to Rimowa today, and she and I have entirely different tastes. So I bought a piece of Rimowa luggage that I would never buy. That's my surprise. She brings my girlfriends who are married to women, I bring her luggage. - What the fuck? - This is awesome. Look at this bad boy. - What do you mean it's awesome? It looks like a car. What? Thank you. - You know, I expose myself and you jab, you jab. - Can't we send someone to college for this amount? - I got a gift receipt. You can go get some bad things. - I know, I'm teasing. Thank you, Scott. Okay. In any case, thank you. Thank you so, so much. I love my piece of luggage. - Yeah, you seem thrilled. I make an effort. Someone's investing in this relationship. I'm taking the kids, I'll be at my sister's. - Go ahead. - No, thank you. It's a lot. It's big, right guys? I mean, come on, that's a big fucking suitcase. - We put a ribbon on it. - Oh, you're very sweet. Anyway, on that note, you can catch selected shows on the tour on your YouTube and your podcast feeds. One more thank you to our title sponsor, Beehive. If you've got something to say, Beehive gives you the tools to publish it and grow your audience and get paid. Scott, I'm gonna get inside this suitcase in a second. I really appreciate it. Thank you. - You're very welcome. Thank you, Cara. - You invest in our relationship and I really appreciate it. Scott is a wonderful partner, even though we often disagree about things, but he's incredibly generous and is a work in progress, which is all we should hope to be. Can you read us out? - Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Richard Andrew in this episode. Thanks also to Nishat Kerouaf, Vox executive producer of podcasts. Be sure to tune in next week for all things tech, and business. Thank you so much. Thank you, Los Angeles. Thank you, California. Thank you, America. - Support for this show comes from Beehive. If you ever thought about putting your work out into the world, but weren't sure where to begin, Beehive can help. Beehive helps you build your audience and your business while giving you more time to actually create your content. Their recommendation network helps new people discover you while monetization tools are available. Tools like paid subscriptions, digital products, and a built-in ad network let you experiment with different business models and find what works best for you and your audience. Because creating your content is hard enough, let Beehive help you with everything else. Visit beehive.com/pivot. That's B-E-E-H-I-I-V.com/pivot and start building your newsletter today.