Steph Sedgwick: Inclusive Design Is a Crucial Solution for Business

Loading, welcome to the True Marketing Podcast. This is your space for real conversations with business owners from different industries at all stages of growth. Together, we'll shine a spotlight on what truly works and what doesn't when it comes to getting your brand's message heard in today's crowded digital world. We'll also dive into marketing hacks, trends, and of course the growing role of AI. I'm Andrea Chase, your host, and I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome back everyone. I'm Andrea Chase, your host of the True Marketing Podcast, and I'm so thrilled to be back in the house with you again today. We are very grateful to have Steph Sedgwick on the show today. Steph is the founder of Clarity Web Design Studio, where she builds and manages WordPress websites for women-led service-based businesses and purpose-driven organizations across Canada and the US. Her work centers on a simple idea. At least one in four people can't use a typical website, and that's a problem worth fixing. A recent transplant from Nova Scotia, she's returned to her original Prairie Home base of Lethbridge, Alberta. A super warm welcome to you Steph. How is everything going in the West for you today? Hey, Senator, it's going really well today. So glad to hear that. It's March. The birds are coming out. I think everyone's got a pep in their steps, so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. Like I shared with you off the mic, this is something that I really didn't know much about, and honestly, that statistic really stopped me in my tracks. I have to say. So I begged to guess I'm not the only one there, but I'd love to learn a bit more about how did you get into this work that you're doing with accessible web design? A bit about your wise story, Steph. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, like you said, so I run Clarity Web Design Studio. I actually started as, had a different name back when I started in 2015's Breakwebs. And so we focus primarily on working with women-owned businesses across Canada and the US. So one of the taglines that we've sort of developed over these years is that we're building websites for humans by humans. And I mean that like really literally. And I'm sort of meaning into that more this year, you know, as more of these AI tools start to flood the marketplace. So we are focused and really passionate about building websites that actually work for real people, and they don't so pretty. So and that pretty thing is something that when I got into this work, it was 2010. I co-owned a small business at the time in Namaskosha. We needed a way to show, you know, what we offered and the advice is always, oh, even your website got a website got a website got a website. So we had a website. So it started out like this was a creative outlet for me, quote unquote, with my finalist degree. And you know, and all of that, I'm like, oh, this will keep my fingers in the fingers in there. And it's sort of a grew over time. It kind of turned into a bit of a calling it sort of like my soap box now, which is really funny because I'd never expected that. So when I started, I was doing what I think most and what I've seen most web designers are doing. And I was making pretty things, you know, like they looked nice to a certain perspective. And they have a nice layout, they had nice font, they had good flow. You know, I thought it was doing the way it was supposed to be done. And clients really liked it. Nobody, you know, said otherwise. But over the years, I started getting these little sort of hints that I was missing something. And in 2019, I was a subscriber to this online service called smashing magazine, which is still available and still an excellent resource for anybody, I would suggest. They hosted a webinar with a woman named Leighany Watson. She's from England. She's an accessibility engineer and she's like a web standards like super expert and she's legally blind. So in this webinar, she demonstrated trying to go into her local municipal website using a screen reader. I had never seen or experienced screen reader before. I had never really considered in my, you know, limited perspective. I'd never really considered all of those different contexts for visitors trying to access something that should be available to everybody. That's the whole purpose of a website, right? It's supposed to be the great equalizer. So she couldn't even get past the pop up on the homepage. It was a keyboard trap and she couldn't get out of it. And the only reason that she knew what was happening was because she's such an online, like she's so experienced in online browsing. And she was like, you know, I don't really know what's going on, but I suspect this is what it is. And there's nothing I can do. I'm going to have to close it and call them later. And I thought, oh my goodness. Am I being doing this? Holy cow. I really hope this has ever happened for me. So I realized that, you know, I call them pretty paper weights now. You know, they're sort of like they look great from a very narrow perspective. They actually don't work for a massive portion of the population, like I said, one and four. So that led me eventually to I learned my, I earned my CPAC, which is a certified professional and accessibility core competencies because when you get into accessibility, the acronyms get ridiculous, like it's the most confusing thing ever. But it's a certification that I have now. And so when we build or rebuild websites for clients, making them work for everyone is not an add-on. It's not a special feature. It's not like an afterthought. It's baked in to the foundation of every single project that we do. It's not optional. And that's essentially where we've landed today. Yeah, I really value this story, how you kind of came from where you were. And I appreciate the fact that you were questioning yourself saying, oh my goodness, like I'm making these beautiful designs. But am I making that error and I making websites that people can access? And that's pretty, that's not me in my tracks as well when you share that anecdote about that woman. I think that's a really powerful story to shed light on how important this work really is. So I love that you got the CPAC certification. And I also love that you talked about building, repeat it again. If you can for me, stuff, humans for humans. So elaborate on that. Yeah, so building websites for humans by humans. So meaning that we're building them for the people that are going to end up using them. We're not building them to try to meet some magical algorithm that's going to change tomorrow. Not that that's not important and shouldn't be factored in, but that's not the end target customer, right? Right. And then we're building them by humans. So we're not vibe coding. We're not using these little fly by night or hopefully they're fly by night tools to sort of generate like really quick, you know, quick and dirty. Right. Yeah, stuff that we're building is, is designed to be ultimately usable for humans. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I think especially in the world where and we're going to see people, I think in two camps a little bit, right? Not that we can't be a blend, but I think there's going to be a lot of folks who are going to veer more towards the made for humans by humans sort of camp. And I really love the work you're doing actually. And it also, I think shines a spotlight on the fact that most of us probably are blocking out a very high percentage of folks from accessing our website. Absolutely. And, you know, it's not that different from any time, from my experience so far, anytime you start getting into something that touches on a physical disability. Like when you actually start talking about disability topics, it's very often something that unless you have a lived experience, either firsthand or with a loved one, you typically aren't really all that aware of it. You know, like it's what you don't know you don't know, right? So and I think websites are very much the same way. There's so much marketing out there around doing it a certain way. And it's hard to get out of that. But the, you know, when you get into the accessibility guidelines for websites, there's the WICIG, which is the web consortium for accessibility guidelines. So that's what we use for, you know, sort of our standards, standards, quote unquote. And they've got all sorts of studies, you know, where they tested a million websites around the world and almost 98% of them were not considered accessible friendly. And it's, that's a, there's a huge gamut of reasons why that would be. And some of the most common ones are just even as simple as like visual contrast, you know, that you can't read the text against the background or the, it got words over the images and you can't read them. Like it's just, it's that simple. All the way down to things like the code is confusing, the contact forms are, you know, you can't use them without using specific devices, you know, that are, it's just, it's a really wide range. And then we also really like to, one of the things I like to talk about remind people. you know, coming out of COVID, this global pandemic that affected literally everybody, the cognitive load that we are all operating under still to this day after that experience. Requires in my perspective a very clear and simple approach to how you're trying to deliver your information on your website and don't make people think too hard or work too hard to try to try to figure out what it is you can do, let alone how I landed on the right website, you know, and when you start talking about like this one in four number that I mentioned, it does vary a bit depending on where you are, like the US is slightly different standards. One in five, one in four is typically, you know, between Canada and the States, but we're talking everything from visible disabilities to invisible disabilities, you know, that might be impacting someone using a website. And then we start talking about like temporary situational impacts, like, you know, the screen, like your outside in the sun, where you're on really spotty rural internet and you can't actually download anything, all of those 150, you know, one megabyte photos that are so pretty and you put so much money in so much time and energy into creating and crafting this beautiful experience online. And then it's it's not even loading, you know, or whatever. So there's all of these things. And and also given that with that cognitive load piece, there's also the fact that, you know, more and more people are recognizing these neuro spicy conditions, you know, and so allowing people to engage in your online content in a format that works for them given their specific circumstance and context for their bringing that could be cultural, it could be a disability, it could be, you know, busy mom was screening kids in the background, it could be like you're on the bus, like whatever it is. And so trying to recognize that a good design works for everyone, kind of full stop, you know, like it's not just this select group of people that look just like me, you know, whatever. So yeah, so ultimately that's where it sort of stands from. And then what's really cool about it is that because we're working because my business works primarily with small, you know, small to medium service businesses. So I think that the conversation around building for humans by humans is a lot more applicable, like it's a lot more immediately applicable to that group because the data that we track, you know, we can say, you know, organic search traffic has gone up or 150% or whatever since we rebuilt to website. You might not see those same impacts with an e-commerce site because it's a different, it's a totally different user journey for their customers than for a service business, which is typically like a longer sales cycle, you know, people need to engage a few more times and make sure that they trust you reach out. So yeah, so we're just we're all about like removing as many barriers as we can. And then making sure that that website is whether it's the actual hub of all of your online marketing, like, or if it's just one of the one of the legs on your stool, you know, but either way it's it's actually not it's it's working for you rather than inadvertently holding it back. Yeah, so much goodness there, stuff, honestly speaking, like my brain's absorbing all of what you're saying and it is really speaking to me as, you know, a small enterprise service base, like I'm sort of in your real house, right? And I'm questioning things too as I'm hearing yes. But there's a couple things I do want to touch on the cognitive load, I mean, without a doubt. And especially we are not a political podcast here. So we don't get into any of that. Obviously, but that is ever present more than ever, isn't it? And I also want to touch on what you said about the neuro spicy aspect of the culture that we're in, I guess I'll say. So I love that this is something that's becoming, especially in the Western world, we're shedding a lot more light on this. This is becoming, is it is it accepted widely? Maybe not yet, the conversation's happening, right? I think that most of us know that term. And that's a fairly new term, isn't it? Neurospice? Yeah. Yeah. I actually, I love this. My awareness too. I would say probably within the last couple of years, I've heard a sort of like an extension of that. One of our guests, I have to show to Lacey Artemis that came on the show. And she uses the term Neurosparkly. And I just love that. So I think that when we make it sort of fun and we make it that it's not something to fear, but this is something that a lot of the population, frankly, can identify with in some capacity, we need to keep this in mind when we're working with the general public, obviously. So I think I understood from what you're saying. And you correct me if I'm wrong on this. You can have a website that's accessible, but still converts. Oh my goodness, yes. Yes. And I would suggest that it will convert far better. There you go. I love that. So I know this is going to be a loaded question, but I want to know just from a high level overview, how could a business owner out there, small SMB business, no, if their website is accessible and currently functioning at the highest level or capacity that it could be? Yeah. That is that is a big question. So there's a few things that I would have suggested, but I that I usually suggested, you know, leading up to this year. And it was usually things like, you know, make sure that it's just because it says it's responsive, it doesn't mean that it is, you know, like when you look on your website on your mobile, does everything show up? Does all do all of the buttons work, you know, testing really it comes down to testing. I think that's a that's a step that a lot of people skip a lot of designers certainly. I think that the closer we get to this like 2026, I think is going to change a lot of the 2025 certainly changed a lot and how I think about websites. And what I what I like, I have a quiz, you know, on my website where you can sort of go through and self assess. I think it's nine questions. But the end of it, I'm like, you know, this is just one quickness like it can't possibly touch on all of the things that could be happening, right? Like you could have, you know, so here's an example. So we recently rebuilt a website that hadn't been touched since I think it was 2015, 2018, something like that. So it was very like old school, you know, or like from that decade, it was, you know, you had the main body of content, you had a couple columns, it didn't change size, you didn't have to zoom in to read anything, had no mobile version whatsoever. One of the things that we do when we're assessing websites to sort of try to identify what the best way forward is, you know, for a client is we run it through some performance tests. And we can say, you know, you're, you're it's taking too long to load, right? Like that's one of the biggest problems with websites these days because people load all these videos and images and it's huge and it takes forever. And people aren't going to hang around on their phone, you know, if it's going to take five or six or 12 seconds, you know, to load, forget it. So this one website, really old, it old looking and the content was no longer relevant, you know, for the business. But you know, these things happen, right? So this is an adjustment thing that exactly. It's just saying, you know, it's now time to to take this a little more seriously. So as part of that assessment, that initial assessment, we did these performance tests and the performance tests look great because there was hardly anything on the website. And like you can't, you can't take that one result and say, oh, everything's fine because you still can't actually use the website, you know, so it's in terms of trying to figure out if your website is accessible. I actually, I don't know that I would say at this time that there's any one way that you can just do like a quick sort of thing. You can absolutely use the quiz, you know, on my website. You can absolutely do hate evaluations. You can try, don't use AI tools. It's just not going to work out. The, there's automated tools you can put into your browser, you know, to sort of do quick checks. We do use some of those for like really quick surface level kinds of things. But the, the reality about accessibility is that even those automated checkers, they're not going to catch everything. Like it's, you need that human to experience the flow of the website to sort of pick up on some of the things. So I think ultimately do do a, read some stuff, do a quiz, try out like a browser extension. You know, there's quite a few that are, they're pretty good. And see what kinds of things it tells you to look out for. And that would be a really great starting point. Yeah, so that take your phone and go on data, not Wi-Fi and assuming if, well, I mean depending on what kind of data planning you have. And to see what happens. great tips, amazing tips. Now, and I'm like in this, sorry, one more, yeah, online form, which you, I mean, you really ought to make sure that you fill it out, submit it, does it land in your inbox? These are huge, you sound simple, but, no, but they're huge, right? And I know just having with our organization, having the tech side of things, and I always say, not a techie, folks became a woman in tech bi-accident with my former venture. So it's very high level overview for me. But I'd been boots on the ground that we've been doing some of these tests because I had to be a tester for our app or websites and things like that. And you're right, that contact form piece is a big one. A lot of times you're going, why isn't it going through? And sometimes it's a simple fix on the back end, but that's super important. So what I'm hearing is, folks, start with a self-assessment, you know, we'll link your website obviously stuff, but I think that's a great starting point. Maybe book a call with someone like stuff. I think this is when we're getting to. So, I love how you talked about put your phone on data and try and load it as well. And I know I'm not a WordPress expert, but we have used WordPress for some of the sites as well. And it's never the same on desktop as it is on mobile. And sometimes I go, oh, I love what we're doing here. I know even when we rebuilt or built a marketing version that we did another version of it, there were things that just weren't matching. And that was one of the biggest hurdles that we had. We did get through that, but I still need to go and do your self-assessment myself, obviously, you know, but I will have to do that. But that was a great tip. So I know you can't necessarily give just one standalone solution or piece of advice to folks if they want to approve accessibility. But what about for their marketing channels? So this is kind of veering into that that segue into this part of the conversation. Here is about obviously how we present ourselves and our visibility online. We are very focused at marketing versus on social media as a form of digital marketing solutions. If folks are using that as part of their marketing mix and strategy, is there ways that we can optimize our social media marketing to be more accessible? Yes, 100%. So I am not a social media manager. I'm not even a social media supporter. So take this was a grain of salt. However, the things that I have learned about posting things that do sort of take some accessibility into account. I can really only speak to LinkedIn because I don't use many of the other ones for various movements. But there's usually like an image, there's an option to add alt text. You know, that's a really important thing. You know, people miss it all the time. But that's the thing that will show it. Same on website. That is what will appear if the image cannot load for some reason, like if the image is broken. So if your image title is like a bunch of numbers and characters or you know some random, you know, how they they'll do like a I and G underscore, two, zero, nine, teen blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Like it's literally meaningless to anybody. Sometimes websites will show that image title. Sometimes most likely they'll show the alt text. So if you if you haven't filled in the alt text, you are killing any content communication to someone who can't see that whether they literally can't see it because they have visual issues or because their browser won't load it. So same with social media. You know, don't assume that everybody using social media has the same capacity and context that you're putting to it, right? So alt text is a really big one. Captions in video. It is I don't have like I wear glasses and I don't have any auditory things aware of. But I can't stand listening watching videos on social media with a sound on. I can't stand it. So if and this is just my own personal preference, it's not even like a UX thing, like a user experience thing necessarily. But it's that, you know, trying to remember that people are coming into your content. You don't know what time of the day it is. Like if my whole household's asleep, I don't know the sound on. Am I going to go upstairs and find my earbuds? No. Also, no. You know, no, I'm not. You know, for me at Leake East, when I'm trying to when I see some of that kind of content, if there are no captions, it's going like it might. You're dead to me. Like I'm not going to take I used to take the time to say, Hey, did you know? Hey, did you know? But you know what? I'm busy too. And there's a lot of that. It's really hard to keep up. So for sure. It's kind of like with those contact forms, you know, when they don't work. Or if you get like you can't get past the recapture. Oh man. You know, or you've got like a timer on your submit form. Please. Like, come on now. Who are you trying to? I don't know what you're trying to achieve there. I'm not you're just using like crummy marketing tactics. We call that bow marketing. But the it's make things easier for your people wherever you can. It's sort of the key thing. But yeah, other than that, I'm really not a social media guide or expert in any way. I do know there are a number of people that specialize in math. You can certainly find them on LinkedIn. And they have a lot of sort of like little tutorials and guides for improving them. But also bear in mind that they're social media platforms. And that's not their ultimate goal. Yeah. So they're never going to be ahead of the game. I don't think. Yeah. I know. I think that's really beautifully stuff. Honestly speaking. And that's okay. Right. I'm always curious about folks who use different marketing channels anyway. So that's something that we can definitely say way into. I'm very curious. But I do want to just close that loop a little bit. If there's barriers to entry folks, you're going to just stop people before they even have a chance. Right. So having alt text integrated, having captions on the videos. I think that's pretty easy peasy to implement everybody. So and like you very eloquently pointed out, you're not going to listen to things with the audio on. I'm with you stuff. I a lot of times have it turned off as well. Because like you said, might be multitasking. There might be other people in the room. I actually, and maybe for me, I think it's more to preference actually as well. Like I obviously love voice. And that's something that I'm very integrated with with the voice overwork. However, with social media, I do notice myself a lot of the time listening to things without the audio on. And then I, you know, I just, I think it's a comfort thing for me. I become very accustomed to doing it. Or if you're in public, you know, it's very obnoxious stuff of the audio going. But I do a lot of times. Yeah, sorry. I was just going to say a lot of times where we're, there's so much pressure to create and put out all of this stuff and to do it like really fast and all the time. And it's so much pressure. And for those that like, certainly for my client and business owners, like myself, who have small teams, you know, we don't have an in house marketing agency. We don't have someone whose dedication, whose sole responsibility is creating and posting social media content, let alone accessible, you know, stuff because that does require some experience, right? And some knowledge around that specific topic. So, there's so much pressure around this. And it's so easy to forget that like to, to, to forget to try to see it from someone's pointed to him. It's so easy, you know, and we've all, we all do it. We do the thing. It's been needed done. I just need it done. I just need the stuff. Just need to get this off. Yeah. You know, so trying to sort of step back and build in that pause, you know, before you publish something and maybe you've got a checklist or maybe you've got like a, I don't know, whatever, whatever the thing is to stop you from publishing it without trying to take that, but a little bit of us further step back and just say, did I remember to do, you know, these things, you know, if my person's on the bus, are they going to be able to engage you this content? Yeah. I think you've given us a lot of those questions to really think about to make a stop, pause like you're saying before just moving forward, because we are in a society that's very content driven and it's very quick. And people really aren't thinking half the time, frankly, speaking about what they're putting out. It's just, I have to meet a certain criteria that I set for myself. And I, I mean, I obviously preach a little bit of consistency, but I also really advocate for the fact that that has to work for you. I am never going to, you know, encourage somebody if they, if it doesn't work for their life or their capacity to post four or five times a week. I can't tell you how many times I've been been asked in a week, how many times do I need to post on social media in a week? And I go, well, that's a very complicated question. It really depends. What can you handle? What can you keep up with? It's like this podcast. What can we keep up with? So I think we need to normalize this about conversation a little bit more. Um, you know, at the end of the day, you want to be proud of what you're putting out there and you want it to be able to accommodate as many people as possible as what I think we're talking about here. So, um, because you don't use social media really as a marketing tool. Now you did mention how LinkedIn and I know you and I initially, can I sit on LinkedIn, which was great. Um, can I ask you, how are you marketing your services to clients? How are people coming through the door? Yeah. So I think, so I mentioned like having a stool, you know, where each leg is like one into your one of your strap, a piece of your strategy. So, um, I'm like most service based, well, I think most service based businesses, I have a very strong referral network. So there's that. That's one piece. Um, I do a monthly round table, a virtual round table where I bring in other women business owners and we talk about really cool things. Cool. And typically around like, like this year, my whole theme is the human advantage. And it's up. We're talking a lot about like how you can sort of blend all of these really important pieces of your, I mean, I, you know, my, my angles, all these the website. But some of these folks are like, like the last one was, um, the storytelling, you know, and one is a podcasting, turned out podcasting. She does podcasting, which is a keynote speaker and trainer. And then the other one is specializes in writing, like online, online writing of the stories specifically. So then we were trying to talk like, where is this intersection of really authentic storytelling in this new age of AI where you can write a case study, quote unquote in 30 seconds that probably sounds like it's written by AI. You know, so, um, I lost track of your question, but, um, it's, uh, oh, yeah, the marketing. So, so the round, so that's something that I do every month. And with the goal of being sort of grow, because I, because I think that when in business, you know, we do business differently than our male identifying counterparts. So this round table thing is all about sort of a shared, um, growth, you know, both from my audience and for my speakers audiences, right? And similar to what you can do with a podcast, um, to try to sort of broaden the reach of the, what you're doing. Um, and, and I went on a store, I had emails, I had faith like meta, you know, stuff until very recently. Um, and then LinkedIn and YouTube, I have a little bit of that. I knew too. Yeah. Perfect. Bill, those were great ones. Preferral, so word of mouth, Marke, in person marketing and networking, round table, getting in a room with it sounds like people that you want to work with, right? I've reached down service base sort of network of folks, women, specifically. And then folk, I love how you talked about focusing on human advantage. So I, we see that golden thread through this conversation here today, which I think is really important and very timely in, in the, in the year we're in. Um, so, you know, I, I've debated many a times, honestly, staff, do I keep these episodes snackable? Do I keep them or do we have longer form? We're keeping them shorter for now, but I'm, I'm very tempted because I could probably keep going like there's so much more here. So we know how to do back, but you really have shared so much brilliant advice with us. I know we've scratched the surface, but I hope if nothing more, this gets people thinking about this conversation and it gives them the chance to put the eyes on their materials, whether it be their website, their content, social, to have a little bit of a different lens and have it really be focused so that work accommodating everybody out there. So I think this is really powerful and I really appreciate you for this. Um, before we close it out, though, we always have to leave our guests with the floor. Your best piece of marketing advice. And in your case, maybe it's accessible related that you've been told that you've acquired and you or you've learned that you want to leave with everyone today. Oh, um, so that's a really great question. And I feel like I could answer it with like 10 different, 10 different answers. Um, I think for honestly, okay, no, I just narrowed it down in my own head. Um, and you actually mentioned it earlier, uh, is by consistency, that consistency piece, um, regardless of what that applies to with your business, it has to be consistent. So I'll leave you with a little quick, um, tip and it's going to apply specifically to anyone who's listening as a local business like where you actually have people come into your location. Um, Google business profile is a free tool. Um, if you had a Google business profile, listing online directory listings, your website, your social media, wherever your business is online, follow something. It's called map to name and address phone number and AP. They have to be consistent. And when I say consistent, I'm talking like the robot does not understand. If you write, you know, my former address was unit one, uh, 129, Gara Street. So if I wrote 129 Gara Street comma unit one, do they understand that that's the same thing, not necessarily, you know, if you write ST instead of STR, or EET, that's another difference. These are all trust signals that the consistency that you mentioned is the thing that is, is one of the things that's required to start to build trust. And those trust signals are things that all of these search engines, LLM's, all of those things are looking for specifically just like us humans are, right? We go to all the voice. I were like, are you a real person? Are you in Canada? Are you like, what is this? What's happening? Um, yeah, like, what are the all in a Google Doc Word document, whatever, whatever is easiest for you? And that is the piece of information that you use for all of those places. And if you had, like I just did update every single one, are you going to miss them? Yeah. 100% I keep coming across directories and we're further about that one. Um, but, uh, but yeah, it's, it's consistency is absolutely key. Yeah. That's such an important piece of advice that you've shared. And I'm right behind you 1000 for said, not just for social media, but for these other avenues of your marketing. And I love that you mentioned Google business page. Just a friendly reminder of folks that's a free service, right? It doesn't take that long to set up. You know, you can do it, but I love how you talked about having all of these seamlessly, the same across the board. And I can share with you when we started marketing verse under the bait, some brela, that is part of the reason why we have such a long handle. And I have a couple mixed feelings about that because it is pretty long. We went with true marketing verse, but we verbally use the word marketing verse, but I couldn't get all of the same handles. So I couldn't have any nice meal. So that's, it's not, yeah, that part, I can have it. Yeah, I understand what you're saying there. Um, and that that is something that there's a certain, you know, some of this, there's some good intake, like there's only so much you can do. But if you have an address listed like a civic address listed on your social profile, that's, that's the NAP that I was referring to. It's not the, not the handle like wherever you're at. Um, that's something, um, I think it's worth considering, but it doesn't, I don't believe it has the same weight as I see. Trust him. Yeah. Oh, okay. Thank you for shutting late on that. I appreciate that. Yeah, no, that is, that is just the best way we could end this conversation. Unfortunately, time is up, but I do thank you, stuff so much for shedding light on this topic. I know I learned a lot. I'm sure other folks will as well. Thank you so much for stopping by. Don't forget to follow, share and leave a review to help even more people find the show and level up their marketing game. Until next time, remember, keep your marketing real and your message true. 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