Stay Curious with Debbie Allen and Phylicia Rashad

Y'all are beautiful, aging, gracefully, beautifully, elegantly, untouched, unpooled, unplugged, unfilled, unsculpted. That's the best analogy I've ever heard. I love that. Please put that in so I can copy that again. That needs to be on a t-shirt somewhere. This episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. Well, look who's here. How are you? I have not seen you in a while. I know. I know. And before we really begin, everybody noticed that Craig is sporting some rose-colored glasses. It's like, what do you. We have to explain to our audience what's going on. You know, when 2 Chainz. When 2 Chainz was on, he had those yellow glasses, and I was like, I want to be cool like 2 Chainz. Well, you need some chains, too. I know. I know. You just got the glasses. You didn't get the chains. No, no. So what happened, folks, is I have been having this sty problem with my eye. And y'all don't want to see it. I've been more self-conscious about it than anyone else. And my wife was like, you can't go do the show like that. Why don't you go get some sunglasses? I'm glad you got glasses on. I mean, that style would be like another host. Listen, I. I have gotten so. It's like, welcome to IMO with Craig, Michelle, and the sty. That's mean. You doing good? I'm doing well. Besides Mr. Sty? I'm doing well. I feel good. We've had a great summer. You have two grown men in high school. In high school. IMO listeners. Two adults. Two. And then now two high schoolers. The boys are in high school, both of them. I know. Large and in charge. I know. I know. And tall and. Handsome. Yeah, and they're doing stuff. And Austin's sporting his twist, which Malia loved in the family chat. She was like, way to rock the twist. Because when Malia was 10, 11, 8, 9, she wore twists. They look alike, too, with him and those twists. They do look alike. They look alike with the twists. But you know what's next up? What? Yes. Go ahead. Say it. Earring? Yes. Hey. That's next on the agenda. Hey, is that the shirt? I'm stalling. I'm stalling. What are we stalling for? I don't know. I don't know. What do we think is going to happen? I figure if anybody, any male should get an earring, it should be me before them. Well, why don't you do a joint piercing? Hey, IMO listeners. Joint, piercing, joint, piercing, joint, piercing. You get a little diamond stud to go with your rose-colored, sty-covered glasses. You'd be killing it. You're very funny. Very funny. We, yes. Oh, my gosh. Craig is going to do a proper official introduction because our two guests are the queens of the queens of all the queens. And they deserve a complete, proper introduction with Craig is going to look at and read thoroughly because we don't want to leave anything out. And they should know there was a lot of discussion about what we. What we should put on there. They're so accomplished. So, forgive us if we haven't put everything in there. It was a fight. It was a fight in the production meetings. Get it done. Focus. So, first, Phylicia Rashad. Did you all hear that? Phylicia Rashad. Is an accomplished actor and stage director. Yes, she is. Let me amen to the whole introduction. Who became a household name. And I mean household name. That's an understatement. For her role as. Claire Huxtable on the NBC sitcom. She raised us all. The Cosby Show. That not only raised us all, but gave such great examples of parenthood. Yes. You know, it was. I'm so excited. Okay, finish. I got like goosebumps. It's hot in here. She has also appeared in The Gilded Age, This Is Us, and Empire. Among other popular television shows. On stage, Phylicia has appeared in A Raisin in the Sun, Into the Woods, Dreamgirls, Gem of the Ocean, and The Wiz. Debbie Allen. They're both here. I can't believe they're both here. Is an award-winning actress, dancer, choreographer, singer, director, and producer. She has starred in classics like the 1980s musical, drama, television series, Fame. I'm gonna live forever. And has earned six Emmy Awards, a Golden Globe. We are very silly. I'm so sorry. Five NAACP. Image Awards, a Drama Desk, and their first Astaire Award. In 2001, she and her husband, Norm Nixon, founded the non-profit Debbie Allen Dance Academy in Los Angeles. Phylicia and Debbie. Welcome to our house! So happy to see you. Thank you all. You guys are lovely. Oh, thanks for being here. You are here. Debbie, so nice to. Thank you so much for having us together. Well, I am so excited that both of you are here together. I know, that's the best part, other than sitting here talking with you guys, is that she and I are together. We're not together enough. Look at you two sisters together. Oh my God, two of the most iconic women in the business. Y'all are. You can't even. It's not triple threat, quadruple threat. It's like quintuplet threat. It's like it's all the threats that you all are. And award-winning, producing, directing, acting, all the stuff. But rarely do you guys sit down together to do interviews. Yeah. So we feel incredibly honored. Oh, wow. We do too. To have you both here. Why did you. Why did you guys choose to sit down together? Because you asked us. You invited us. Now, she knew that. She just wanted to make sure. She wanted to hear you say that. Everybody doesn't ask, but once people knew we were coming, my phone was jumping off the hook. Everybody was calling. Well, can y'all. No, honey, no, baby. Uh-uh. We're going over here first. Then y'all can talk to us after. It's great to be here together. Oh my goodness. Alicia and I have done a couple of good things together. We did Polly when we did the movie for Disney. And we did The Old Settler for PBS Presents. It was their first movie. We got such a rave reviews playing these two old dowagers living in Harlem together. And she was trying to run off with a young man. That's another story. Okay. Well, we get to all that. You know, the sister bond. We were just talking before we sat down because you were asking about that. About the girls and how they're doing and growing up. And the thing that I always think about is like they are uniquely close. Almost irritatingly so. Because they live together. But when we're all together as a family, we're all close. They have, they just are like magnets to each other. And when they talk about that, they say, you know, we are the only two who've been through what we've been through. You know? And I think, you know, because it is true, whether we were in Russia visiting the Kremlin or seeing the queen, you know, they're the two little kids in the midst of this. Yeah. Trying to make sense of all that was going on. And I think they have a special language and a special sense of understanding of each other. Do you guys have that? Is that similar? Your sisterhood? Your relationship? Is it that kind of magnetic bond, given that you're both in the same industry? I hadn't considered that. But mommy said, she said, the one way, the one thing that will ensure that you will remain very close is that you have the same interests. She said that to me when I was a teenager. As surely as you have the same interests. She said, you will be very close. Was it intentional because of that? Did she put you guys in the same things? Because was she trying to make it so? No, I think what she did was she observed our interests. Alicia was early on singing and acting, acting out. And I was dancing at like three years old. My brother, Tex, was playing the trumpet. And so she was looking for what she. She always said leading from behind, which, you know, which was the thing. So she made sure we, you know, it was always a fight because we grew up in that whole Jim Crow era where everything was segregated and just, just fighting to get us the best opportunities to develop. And she also made sure that we both knew that we better get out here and do something in the world. She was kind of critical about us using. our gifts to do something what are you going to do and when did she see your gifts and versus when you felt like you had gifts very early mommy but another thing she used to say is if people really understood they would know that their children are their best form of entertainment it is no joke no joke so she was she had her own interest you know she had her own work but she never neglected observing us paying attention to us listening to what we had to say and watching what we would do very naturally she really thought about that a lot advocated it for educators as well so she observed us she corrected us terrible yeah she saw it very early she she saw she saw it in us as little children and she would create the avenues for development she would actually create the eight the avenues what does that look like what it looks like well i can say this because i wanted to dance and schools that were more professional were all segregated and uh she says so many times that well i can say this because i wanted to dance and schools that were more professional were all segregated and uh she says so many times that well i can say this because i wanted to dance when i was like eight years old how am i going to get to be a dancer if i don't get the lessons mama what are you gonna do about it i said that to her and what she did was she went out and she found this man who had been a retired dancer with the russian company who was a businessman in houston and talked him into coming to our house and teaching me ballet wow she took the railing off the wall to go upstairs and made it my dance studio the living room she created that she found a piano teacher for me who was a piano teacher for me who was a piano teacher for me who was a who was um a concert pianist she would find the people to teach us she would and she didn't stop with us she did it with her grandchildren too she would find the people what was the your household like um in because there was houston right yeah and then there was a move but i'm just curious about what what did it feel like in your house was there always music was there a lot of talking you know you said that your mom listened to you and enjoyed your voice which was the same thing as mine and you guys both met my mom yes it was amazing you know and when you talk about your mother and how she watched you all i we've we felt that you know that we were that my our parents loved our voice and they loved engaging with us and that made a huge difference i'm just trying to get a feel for what uh your household was like as a child as children books uh because when we were children uh african-american people were allowed to go to the library on tuesday only in houston so mommy found ways to purchase books so there were i mean i go in i can look at some of these books today and they take me all the way back to my fourth year of high school and i'm like i'm gonna go to the library and i'm gonna go to the library as a child because i remember them on the shelf and there were artists john biggers joseph mack carol sims these were all artists and they were teaching at texas southern university and they would come to our home and they'd have these great discussions and they would get very talk about drama get loud and we would be little children hiding up under the coffee table looking at them going from side to side it was interesting to us as children you know it was amazing to watch mommy creating her own mythology with these artists that's what i say because she wrote this incredible book hawk and you read her legacy project about man's transformation to a higher existence and it was really her story because she was struggling and fighting to be that hawk to live in a higher plane and take her children and everybody she could get to pay for attention to go with her and so what was your mother's story where was born in chester south carolina yeah her um her father was a blacksmith her mother was a student at hampton university it was hampton institute at the time they had both grown up in chester the families and uh that was the heirs family that was my mother's father and grams my mother's mother they lived on that same little block and used to play across the yard of course offenses children and they attended brainard institute one of those schools established by the presbytery in her family at that time i would say when she was very young it was her mother vivian yes her sister sarah mildred and the youngest one was aunt sunday roberta and my grandmother died when my mother was nine uh she contracted tuberculosis taking care of a family that didn't have anybody to take care of them and she would go you know to help out and so so my grandfather remarried and he married a beautiful tall dark-skinned woman named bessie she was a teacher she was a scholar she was something else and there were three other children so this is there there was my uncle junior robert and then there was my aunt bessie and then there was my uncle jimmy robert and then there was my aunt then the youngest one kenny who was the darling of the family they all grew up in this this house what i my memories of this are that was very warm there was nothing extravagant about it my grandfather had built it it's still standing wow and it was warm and family was everywhere you know real southern kind of thing education education was important my grandfather was a blacksmith who graduated from johnson c smith college okay yeah education everybody it was had to get you did not take it for granted it was a privilege yes but it was also a responsibility to educate yourself my mother said there was only one thing in the world in her entire life that she was afraid of and that was being ignorant this episode of imo is brought to you by our sponsor midi health we're gonna talk about a topic that um fortunately is getting a lot more attention yeah and rightly so it it's getting it's getting more attention and it's impacting a lot of families well i want to invite someone here to help navigate this conversation and um let's bring out dr kathleen jordan dr jordan's so nice to see you great to see you welcome to imo thank you yeah thanks for being on let me uh scoot your chair in if you need it yes well thank you for being here well you know it's i i think in my way of talking about all aspects of my life it just felt like my menopause journey was a part of that um so i'm just glad that you know there are more and more well women who are sharing their experiences and their experiences and more medical uh experts who were weighing in and giving us the guidance that we haven't had for so long yeah i think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many many challenges that come you had the joy of meeting that challenge while the whole world watched the white house but really you opened up the conversation which has been great and i think it's really important because this time of life is so filled with changes right the hormone changes it's not just about hot flashes and night sweats yeah it really impacts women really greatly and i always say that what we do about perimenopause and menopause yes it makes women feel better in the moment it helps us navigate our days but it also impacts our long-term health like there's very real changes and that's really why i helped found midi and why we treat all these women at midi health and and in addition to being a founder of midi health you are the chief medical officer at midi health can you tell us what exactly is midi health oh i'd be delighted so midi health is a telehealth clinic made for women and we really were founded to really meet the huge care gap for women in perimenopause and menopause which means we can help guide women through the health of their body if it is what formulation to take but it's actually a lot bigger than that right it's a lot bigger than that and menopause care is much broader experience right so we help women with skin and hair changes we help with the bone loss that starts in perimenopause we now know cardiovascular risks go up weight goes up right that was one of my big experiences but libido changes mood changes we have more anxiety we have more depression we have a lot of challenges so some women come to midi with one problem maybe they have doctors serving them for all their health needs they may come just to have the hormone conversation or just to have weight will help with weight or skin and hair. And then other women haven't seen a doctor in five to 10 years since their last baby was born and their baby is now 10, right? Because what we do in these decades, what we do in our 40s, 50s, and 60s really dictates what our 70s, 80s, and hopefully 90s look like. And I think it's really critical. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. I was always surprised at, you know, the notion that as a woman, our health stopped after childbirth almost. And if you aren't educated or informed, I mean, I've always been a go to the doctor every year. I think, you know, we came out of our eight years at the White House with excellent healthcare and you work in, you know, you get in that rotation. But I think the point you make that, you know, it's almost like women drop off the face of the healthcare map after we stop reproducing. That's, that feels tragic to me. Mitty sounds like it's really made, helped women make it easier for women to get access to care. Well, that was one of the goals. We really wanted women to access care. And to do that, you have to make it easy, right? So we use telehealth. I love telehealth as an access solution. It means you don't have to live near an expert. You don't have to live in a major city even. We don't have to live in a major city. We can reach you in any zip code. And then we thought it was really important also to take insurance because for a lot of decades, this kind of expert care was really only available to women who could afford cash pay practices, who provided wonderful care. But really all women deserve this. And we've really worked hard to create a platform that can deliver this care to women. So Dr. Jordan, tell us how folks can go about getting care, this kind of care. Okay. Well, we've worked really hard to make it as easy as possible. So you can go to our website, which is joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com. And really the website helps you navigate. You can book an appointment right there. We have availability in all 50 states. And you start your journey there. You can come with one question, one issue, or some women come and just say, what should I do? And that's joinmidi.com. That's it. Daddy was Baton Rouge and they had, we still have this over 90 acre farm that had been given to our ancestors during the civil war. When somehow at that time we protected the slave master's goal and they gave us this property, but it's a legacy to go. To Louisiana, where we spent our summers going, hiding under the house so we didn't have to do chores and going out in the pasture and, you know, seeing milk and cows and getting eggs and chickens. I mean, we grew up with that rural, very real family experience. And a lot of cousins. A lot of cousins. Aunts and uncles. Did you back then feel a pressure to be excellent? Because of the legacy, the legacy of accomplishment at a time when they're, I mean, y'all were doing stuff, folks, probably a lot of folks were doing, but nobody would hear about it. I mean, that feels like a lot of pressure on you as kids to be okay. I don't feel that. We grew up, we grew up with teachers who lived in our community and who knew our parents and they insisted upon excellence. First of all, they said, because you can. And second of all, because I know where you live. But our biggest pressure was our mother. Mother was looking at, mama was looking at us individually and she was expecting us to live up to expectation, you know, potential. And as we grew older and older, even like when I went to, by the time I had gone to that school that wouldn't admit me in Houston and went to my audition for college. And at that audition, they used me to demonstrate but they didn't accept me. And it was like the biggest blow when I had to call home and say, daddy's like, all right, gal, when you're starting, daddy, they didn't take me. Girl, stop playing. It was so painful. But when I got to the airport, mommy met me in tears. And what did she say? She said, Deborah, you failed. She wasn't letting me be a victim. She wasn't going to let me blame this white man that told me I needed to find a different profession. She was putting it on me. And it took me a while to understand how much she was loving me. I just do want to understand your personalities and birth early. We are the youngest. Yes. And so I am accused of being bossy. Wait, hold up, hold up. Accused? That's not funny. That's not funny. Well, Felicia's laughing. Nothing funny about that. You're the only one not laughing. He's like, oh, man. I think there must be something to being the younger person and to seeing people who are not so older, so much older than you, having a little bit more authority or something. And there's something in the spirit of a human being that won't accept that. Yes. Oh, wait, wait. Not only not accept it. So growing up, this was my best friend. She did everything I did. Everything. Sports, running around outside, games. I mean, everything. Yeah. And what I can appreciate that I took from mom and dad that I applied to my own children is that just because she was a girl didn't mean she couldn't do certain things. And I was, you know, at the time, I didn't know my parents were so savvy. But as I got older and realized this monster we created, it was smart. It was smart. Well, see, that's the difference because I did the same thing with Felicia, but she didn't like it. I followed her everywhere. I wanted to wear her clothes. When she left home, I put on her clothes. I wanted to use her bobby pins. I want when she had friends over, I'd come in. They go, look at little Deb. Isn't she cute? And Felicia was like, mom, get her out of here. Get her out of here. So Felicia really got tired of me. She wanted me out. But she didn't like it. She didn't It's interesting. As we grew, the bond just was inseparable. It was like I was the little sister that was annoying, a little bug that needs to go away. And when did it click? How old were you when you saw each other as friends? Felicia's like, I'm still not sure. I think the year of separation, too, Howard and Debbie was still in high school. I think that's when it began. I remember when Debra auditioned for the North Carolina School of the Arts, and it was during the spring break at Howard. So she came to Howard immediately after that audition. And it was another world for her to see and experience. And that was good. But I remember her disappointment. I remember how she felt. You see, we had always been number one. Yeah, yeah. The light of the, and you know, family understanding your excellence and seeing it, being in a community that saw your excellence. And then to go out into that world and have them, which you probably knew was unfairly, tell you no. Oh, he said to her, she didn't have the body of a dancer. That was after using her to demonstrate all the combinations for everyone else to follow, which would make any young person feel confident that they were accepted. Right? Yeah. But so her hurt was very palpable to me. I had never seen or felt that in my sister before, and it hurt me too. Hmm. And the pride and the joy in each other is clear. I was watching your, um, uh, your, uh, acceptance speech for your honorary Oscar, which was beautiful and having the whole family there, you know, and I, they panned in to your expression and it, it was, it, you might as well have been right up there with her. Um, no competition, no feeling. Cause this is like, I don't, I never felt competitive with my brother, but I always said, well, maybe, maybe that's because he was a boy and we were so clearly we had our own lanes. Yeah. Um, but I, you know, I, my, my, my girls don't feel competitive and I'm just wondering, you know, when, how does that happen or how do you avoid it? And what do you think your mom got right? Or your parents got right? I think if there was any competition that I felt, um, I always felt that Debbie was beautiful and that I was not. Mmm. Mmm. And the whole room, all the men were like, what? Yeah, but children, young girls. Right, oh, no, I get it. Come on. Yeah, I get it. So it wasn't until we were college graduates, right? And we were living together in an apartment on 84th Street. And it's Christmas. And this is the first Christmas in our lives where we're not going to be with family other than each other. And neither one of us had steady employment. But there was a little jewelry store around the corner. And we had secretly gone in to buy gifts for each other. And we bought earrings for each other. Oh, my God. You did not know. No, we didn't know. We didn't know. So it was Christmas Eve in the night. And we're sitting there with the smoked turkey that our father sent us. So we'd have some semblance of home. And we're sitting there. Okay, well, I have something for you. And, oh, I have something for you, too. And so we exchanged the things. And we opened them up. And it was then. And I don't remember what led to the conversation. But I said to Debra that I had always wanted to be beautiful like her. And she looked at me. She said, but you're the beautiful one. You're the one. I was always trying to be beautiful like you. And then we broke down and started crying. Crying. I'm about to cry here. Just hearing that truth. You know, we grew up with that foolishness. That colorism foolishness. Because, you know, that brown paper bag foolishness. And I remember one time Felicia loved chocolate milk. And we were drinking chocolate milk. And my uncle said to her, girl, you better drink all the white milk you can. And wow, that was so ugly. It was really ugly. And I think that's why Felicia felt. But Felicia looked more like mama than me. And I wished I was always pretty like her. Always. Always. Well, but that's also a way to keep us girls guessing and feeling insecure about ourselves, too. Because it's like the notion that an uncle would say anything. I mean, we're really careful about, like, you know, the men in our family, you know, commenting about the girls. You know, even out of love or caring. It's like, don't let it come. It's like, don't let it come from your lips. You know, it is a different, don't critique, don't ask. Barack is like, if you got something to say about something they got on, tell me. But I want them to feel, both of them to feel like you think. The sun and the moon rises and sets on them. Because young girls need to feel that from the men in their lives. To, you know, ward off all the ugliness that is out there waiting for us. All that. The ugliness, the social media of it all is so difficult. I guess I'm very sensitive to it because of the Debbie Allen Dance Academy. I have so many young girls and young people that are bullied or feel lesser or, you know, do whatever. And I just try to make them forget about anybody. And it's why I never did a competition because I want my students to compete with themselves in class. Thank you. Not with something outside and not, you know, the way you look is not how I. Except students at my school. This whole judgment thing is just, I don't want to diminish that. Those great points. Thanks, Craig. But I, because there's so much stuff we want to talk about, especially Howard. But before we get there, I am fascinated by the fact that you all moved to Mexico. Mm-hmm. When you were young. And if you can, can you tell us how that came about and how it was and what it did for your development? I just can't even imagine back then moving to Mexico and living. I know my parents. Your mother was like, we're getting out of the country. We're going to another place. She wouldn't have moved off of Euclid, let alone going to Mexico. Oh, my God. That's such a great story. Mommy was. She tired of America and the constraints and all the eyes on her and her friends. She, it was not unusual for us to come home. And we had friends that were Indian, Dr. Rao and his family. We learned about vegetarianism. She had a friend, Rainier, who was a physicist at Rice University. All the artists that came in and out of the house. There was always such diversity. And she got tired of being in a car and being stopped. Yeah. And saying, why is she in the car? You know, that kind of thing or being or us not being able to go to dance class or whatever it was. And I don't know why she picked Mexico, but she did. And I just remember my daddy crying all the way to the Greyhound bus station. I don't know what your mom is doing. I don't know why. Where is she taking my children? I should turn this car around. Daddy, it's going to be OK. I don't know. And when we got there and we went to Mexico and it was one of the greatest things that ever happened. I bet. And we didn't know what it was going to be. As I recall, one of the things, Mother, or the thing that she tired of most was materialism. It wasn't politics. It was materialism and the insistence upon it as a way to live. And she, you know, she knew that that was not the truth of the human spirit. And she was. She was holding herself accountable. Wow. My mother's thinking. OK. So she walked in the house one day and she said, oh, I have had enough of this materialistic environment. We're moving. Well, that wasn't unusual for us. Right. Because we were moved. But we would always stay in the same community. Right. We didn't have to change schools. We would just change houses. A lot. Like, yeah, right. So we just said, OK, Mom, where are we going this time? We're going to Mexico City. Now, I was 13. And I had plans. I'm sure you did. And Mexico City was not one of them. I was livid. I was going to do a hunger strike. I was going to starve myself to death and she'd be sorry. You would. That lasted all the way to San Antonio, I want you to know. Then you were like, I'm hungry. I'm telling you, this way. This way. Did you declare the hunger strike? I just did the same thing. Once again, I wasn't going to tell anybody. I was just going to do it. San Antonio, I ate everything in sight. We arrived in Mexico City. We didn't speak a word of Spanish. And we didn't know a soul. My mother was fearless. Somehow. Somehow, within herself, this was the right thing to do. And she had a way of attracting good people to her and meeting good people. So it wasn't long before she was in a circle of artists and intellectuals and expatriates and people who were American citizens living in Mexico, working, you know. It didn't take her long. She built a community for you. Choose like this. 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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who is committed to helping people move forward and live fully. I remember when I was a first-time homebuyer and I knew one thing, and it was that I knew nothing. Mortgages, closing costs, inspections, home insurance. There's a lot to look into. If you're working towards buying your first home, then I really recommend doing all that research. And I'm happy to say there are some programs like Progressive's Open the House that make things considerably easier. Through this initiative, Progressive is helping first-time homebuyers overcome some of the biggest barriers to home ownership through helpful tools, educational resources, connections to trusted organizations. and funding opportunities. For a lot of people, buying that first home is about more than owning property. It's about building stability and creating a place that's yours. And I know that's how it was for me. Learn more about Progressive's commitment to first-time homebuyers at progressive.com slash open the house, where you can learn more about common housing challenges and access helpful tools and resources to empower you in your housing journey. This episode of IMO is brought to you by our sponsor, Midi Health. Craig, you would be surprised at how little most women know about the care of our bodies. Yeah, I think it's really important that women are talking about it because we're helping each other navigate the many, many challenges that come. The hormone changes is not just about hot flashes and night sweats. It really impacts women really greatly. And that's really why I helped found Midi. And why we treat all these women at Midi Health. Can you tell us what exactly is Midi Health? Oh, I'd be delighted. So Midi Health is a telehealth clinic made for women. And we really were founded to really meet the huge care gap for women in perimenopause and menopause, which means we can help guide women through the hormone conversation. Is it right for them? If it is, what formulation to take? But it's actually a lot bigger than that. We really built it to meet women's needs. That's joinmidi.com. And really, the website helps you navigate. Thank you. Did she work? Did your parents work during that period? My mother's a poet. Yeah. That was her work. That was her work. And then she dove into everything conquistadores. She was translating Spanish when we came back. Translating the works of los conquistadores. Studying the Mayan calendar in depth. In Spanish. This is our mom. Even as she continued, or I should say, delved into Greek classical studies at Rice University. This was our mom. It was like, you don't stop learning. You don't stop growing. This is a fantastic world in which we live. Created by goodness. Infinity. You're part of it. Everywhere in the world. Everywhere. This is how she thought and how she lived. How she raised us to be children of the universe. Every Sunday, the murals of Diego Rivera. We saw a reflection of the people in Mexico with the black people in America. We understood there was a connection. And I just think of it as one of the most culturally rich experiences of our lives. Besides that, it was the first time we went to a Woolworth's counter and could order lunch. Because at home. We couldn't go. And Felicia and I crept up. Because they kind of look brown like us. So we said, okay. Let's see what's happening. We went up to the counter. We had a hamburger. ¿Qué tú quieres? We didn't know. Hamburger. Oh, hamburguesa. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that, that, that. Two. Two. Two. Oh, dos. We ordered for the first time. At a lunch counter where we couldn't do it at home. And it was like, wow. Mama was. Mama was right. Mama was right that this, that we were going through, was not the universe. This, where we were in Mexico, was getting us to the universe. Right. That we were part of a universal community, a world that not only accepted us, but helped us. I could go to the Ballet Nacional and take class where I couldn't take it at home. Yeah. I trained and performed and danced right along everybody else. And it was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And Felicia learned. And Felicia learned in Spanish, helped her book the Cosby show. I'm sure. Yeah. They were impressed by her Spanish, along with her acting. No, he wanted the wife to be. They wanted the wife to be bilingual. Yeah. Yeah. You know. And so I, I had that, that, that skill. Wait, how long were you all there? We were only there for one semester. Like just the whole. First semester. Yeah. That's it. Wait a minute. Then we came back. We came back. My father took one look at us and enrolled us in school. And then Debbie. Sorry. And my mother was like, what? They're in school. They're enrolled. Oh, man. That summer, mommy went back to collect the things that we had left. So Debbie and Tex, our brother, went and I stayed with my dad. Well, it's a, you know, your mother understood so much, but the importance of exposure and experience. And that's another thing that, you know. You don't have to go to Mexico to do it. No. But it is, it, it changes the trajectory of a, of a young person's sense of possibility just to see something else outside of their home, their neighborhood, the same thing. You know, your mother was an extremist. In this way. It's like, oh, dad. Yeah, she was. But it's, you know, you survived it too. I mean, there must have been. There must have been some sense of self-satisfaction that you just did that hard thing and it didn't break you. It didn't change you. It didn't define you. I want to hear just a little bit about your dad and your brother and how they navigated being down in the South and the, how it's, how it was different for them back then, if you recall. Well, dad, it was one of. Ten children, nine of which survived, and he was the first to go to college. And he wasn't the first. After Uncle Lloyd? Uncle Lloyd was the oldest. No, Velma Lee was the oldest. Oh, she was the oldest. They were all afforded a college education. They all, all ten went to college? Our grandfather was a fireman on South Pacific Railroad, and I don't know how he did it, but he determined that all of his children would be college educated. All of them did not finish. Right. But they were all afforded. They were all afforded that opportunity, and he made that happen for them. So maybe it was that daddy was the first one to go further because he went to dental school. I just remember him being the first of something. But daddy was the most handsome man. He and mommy were the most beautiful couple. Oh, my God. When I look at the pictures of him and them together, it was magical. And it was, daddy was always so supportive of what we were doing. He didn't always understand it. Yeah. But he supported it. I remember when. The summer when Felicia was invited to come to the Negro Ensemble in New York, a young girl going out to New York by herself was like, blasphemy to some people. Mom was like, please. Daddy supported it. And it was amazing. Daddy supported every show that we did. He was so loved, such a gregarious and loving human being. So well loved by the community and his, you know. Fraternity with all the other medical professionals. And he catapulted us into that kind of hierarchy of the black community that, you know, he and mom had divorced. And he had remarried. How old were you when they divorced? I was probably, what, four turning five. Yeah. And that was difficult for us because we didn't understand it. Oh, yeah. You know, we were sent off to stay with our aunt and I just didn't understand it. And I blame mom. Mommy. Of course. And it wasn't really her fault. Just like little girls. Just like, my daddy don't do no wrong. I know. Don't wrong. And yet, I was kind of a daddy's girl, but it was so clear Felicia was his favorite. Felicia. She hates to hear this. Because anytime something, he would take Felicia. He wouldn't take, he would, you know, that's true. I don't know that's true. I remember this because I was left out. And I know. And he just loved her. He loved all of us. But her. But there was something about Felicia. He would take her when he'd come to grab somebody. Anyway, but he supported his children in a way. He was proud of us. And he was very loving. And he grew up with a family that was very complex. Very complex. And very different from him. Very different from him. It amazed me. And I didn't really consider it until his funeral. When I sat at the dinner table. And looked around as if I was seeing the family for the first time. And realizing how very different he was. He was a self-refined man. You know. He was like my mother. He was a person who never stopped educating himself. He was a fellow in the American Academy of Dentistry. And they wrote to say, we wish all of the, we wish all of the doctors were as awesome. organized as your father, you know. a person who loved his family. Very different from them, but he loved them. How did the divorce impact you? I mean, loving your daddy like that and being that close to your mom, if it doesn't, you know, if you feel comfortable. I can say this. And before you start, at that time, were there a lot of people getting divorced back then? See, and that's got to be traumatic too, because you don't have any sort of reference point. My parents had the good sense and common decency to allow us to love them both. They never played us against the other. They never used us as tools or as weapons. So it sounds like not only did they have the common sense and decency to not pit you guys against each other, they had the common sense and decency to not pit you guys against each other. And they had the common sense and decency to have the kind of relationship that would only nurture you. It's true. It's so true. As we know, there are situations. I know. We just don't understand it. You know, fathers or mothers keeping children from the other parent. It's just so unfair to the child. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. But we were lucky. Very lucky. One place I would go back to tomorrow is Paris. I loved how you could spend the morning walking around these quiet little side streets, have an incredible savory crepe for lunch. And then suddenly you're in the middle of this huge, bright, bustling city at night. And being a big food person when I travel, I want to try whatever that city does best. Find that out of the way neighborhood spot. Maybe order something I've never had before. Paris is the ideal place for that. I could spend a month there and still feel like I barely scratched the surface. Trips like that always make me think about how much of the world I still want to see. Of course, the only problem with having a long travel wish list is eventually somebody has to pay for it, which got me thinking. If you're heading out on your own adventure or a big concert, game, or festival is bringing travelers to your town, you can list your space on Airbnb while you're away. Instead of letting your place sit empty, you could put it to work, earn some extra income, and give someone a home base to explore your city. They can discover the neighborhoods, local spots, and experiences that make your community special while you put that extra income toward your next adventure. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. If you know me, you know I love sports collectibles. 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It was the best thing that ever happened to me, to be somewhere where I could be nurtured and embraced. It was like being that metamorphosis. Like becoming a butterfly. Going to Howard was what that was like for me. Can you talk about that? I mean, because I, you know, it's important to talk about the values of HBCUs. Ooh, yes. Hello. Especially now we're at a time where, you know, we don't believe in diversity, DEI or whatever. So it's like, okay, let's go back to our schools. First and foremost, I think it's important to recognize the scholarship. Because that's really what it was about. Some of the most incredible professors who had trained some of them, had been educated some of them in predominantly white institutions, but would never be hired there. So they taught in historically black institutions. So we were privy to the best of the best. The best of the best. I think about when I was doing the movie. The movie Amistad, how it was the Howard University Library that had so much information that I needed. How it was the faculty at Howard that became my advisors. Eleanor Traylor. Incredible faculty. Eleanor Traylor is probably one of the most brilliant minds living right this moment. Harvard and a lot of schools have tried to pull her, but she has stayed dedicated to the HBCU. She grew up, you know, best friends with Tony Mars. And Dr. Maya Angelou. And that's her clique. And so it's very important. The HBCU culture is richer than it ever has been. We're just rebooting a different world. And there's a reason because it's relevant. That show gave a voice and a face to young black America in a way they hadn't seen, like they hadn't seen on the Cosby Show. Felicia was very responsible for me coming into that because she had been to the set of a different world and firsthand saw what was happening that wasn't right. I mean, it was so interesting because I remember I was a devoted, avid watcher of all of it and a different world. I remember when it changed because it didn't feel authentic. The first year was not. You know, that first year, it was really kind of like, what college is this? Yes. I didn't go to HBCUs, but I had plenty of friends who did, you know. And so can you talk about that and how you knew that? That a different world needed a little special sauce that it wasn't getting. Hot sauce. It's a hot sauce. Well, it was really, I was looking at it through a lens of professionalism. Because all of our work in the show we were doing, it was through the lens of professionalism. That's where you're going to present what's authentic. That's the professional thing to do. Right? So here I go to do an episode and I just noticed little things about the production staff and the way things were being carried out. And I said, this is not, this is not the way. This is not it. And I looked at the script and the writing and I said, this is not the way. This is not the way we do things. This is not the highest level. This is not the highest level of professionalism. Because in the highest level of professionalism, you're going to present authenticity. And you're going to take yourself out of the box a little bit. You're going to go a little further. If you're talking about an academic environment, yes, you're going to certainly look at the behavior of young people coming together who don't know each other and what that's all about. But you're not going to leave out academia. Preach. Hello. Yes. Yeah. There was no. There was no classroom experience. If you do, if you're not talking about that, you're not talking about the truth of the HBCU experience. You're not. Because scholarship is at the heart of it. Oh, yeah. There's the drum line. That's a cultural thing. Right. That's important, too. Yeah. But that chapel. That's the heart of it. The scholarship, the academia. That's there for the service. To whom? The students. You're bringing forth a generation of humanity that must think broader, must know more. That's not going to happen if you just, you know. Dealing with some basic stuff. Please, darling, please. So I dare say it was basic until. You know what I mean? It was like we're walking around with eggs. So I got the call. Felicia went in. And I had been directing Fame. And I was just getting ready. I was offered Family Ties. That was the next season that I was being offered all of these shows to bring my talent as a director. And Felicia knew about that. And I didn't dismiss anybody. I went in there and did the battle for us to come together as a family. And to write stories that were culturally relevant. That had to do with academia. But just there was no cultural identity to the show. I mean, how do you do it? Should we see you just, I mean, on plain sight. You don't have fraternities. You don't have just, like I said, hot sauce was not on the table. Yes. Literally was not on the table. And so, and then we expanded. I was working so closely with Susan Fales-Hill, brilliant writer. And we were like sisters on the ground. We were on the ground. Guerrilla warfare. And we said, where, I said, where's my Whoopi Goldberg in this cast? And she said, like. Like, yeah, where's our Mary Tyler Moore? Where are the, is the funny, where is that chocolate beautiful sister? And we found Sharnel Brown. We found Cree Summers. And then I came home one year with a picture of Gary Dardan. And then, you know, we made this show such that by the time we did the first AIDS episode that ever appeared in network television. It wasn't a shock to our community. It reverberated in the industry because advertisers. And people were pulling out. But we had already put that footprint, changed the footprint of the show. It's like we're saying something here. Saying something here. You know, we had, I remember the year we did an episode about voter registration when Jesse Jackson was a viable candidate. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I called him. He came to the colonel's house. Yeah, colonel's house. And he, I called him. He said, oh, yeah. Yes, Debbie, I'm coming. I'm coming. And he changed clothes at my house, coming out of the airport and came in. And we also invited George Bush at the same time, but he didn't come. He didn't answer. Yeah. But we were taking big steps. We were, you know, challenging, not challenging. We were doing what was natural to us. Let's just ask everybody to come in and let's see what you have to say. So how did the reboot come about? When was it decided that it's time? We tried. Like more than 30 years later now, we tried and got very close twice before. Like in 2003 or 12, we tried and we got close, but nobody would say yes to it. Finally, Ted Serranos at Netflix said yes. Tom Werner and I had been knocking on doors, but we had a wonderful time with Netflix because they pushed us to do it. And that was the right choice. It certainly wasn't my choice because the audience was always a character in the show, but it was the right choice so we could see a more three-dimensional world. What was the different world? And do a show that now became more dramedy, you know, in its execution. Do you feel like you have the leeway to be as bold as the original? I think so. I think we do. And I think I'm hoping that we get that second season. Yes. So we can go even further. Yes, Ted. We dealt with a lot of things just from the first episode, the financial crisis that's happening at HBCUs, what's going on. There's so much to talk about right now. So much that we need to hear the voice. But it's going to require some bravery too. It takes bravery on the part of not just me and the writers, but the network has to let go and let us do. And they have been. It's just really, we have a wonderful executive, Jasmine Lawson, who went to Spelman herself. And so we'll be looking to her again. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. On the career trajectory, you both are Broadway sensations. Was that always? Was that the first love? Was that like, we are going to be in theater? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We had some predecessors in the family who were dancers. And Broadway was there. And we came as college graduates and we looked and we saw it and said, yes. But I had never imagined that I would direct, even though Jeffrey Holder did plant that seed. I was an understudy in the Wiz. I understudied Glenda, the Good Witch of the South. And one day in rehearsal, he said, every actor should think in terms of becoming a director, producer. Every dancer should think in terms of becoming a choreographer. Every choreographer should think in terms of becoming a director, a producer. For development. Yes. For development. For that continuation of learning that your mother instilled in you. That's right. That's right. And to come to the work with that understanding that it's not just, it's got to be deeper. Whatever you do on that stage has to be broader, I think. Yes. And that development really helped me a lot as a director. Because I understand how to talk to actors. You see, directing is a number of things. It's not about telling somebody where to go and what to do. Anybody can do that. But can you? If you open something in someone's understanding and do it in a way that opens your own, so it's not just you giving the orders, that's dull and boring to me. When I work with people like that, I just look at them. Is that your mom right there? Yeah. That part of you that just came out? Yeah. Yeah. So help me understand, because I'm loving this, because it really reminds me of sports. Player versus coach. Yeah. So watch yourself over there. I'm letting you go. What's harder, directing or acting? Harder? Or more difficult to become or accomplish? One has a broader scope. In acting, it's finding that, for me, the way I approach work, is finding the heart of that character. You know? And that's something that's singular and individual to me. And then I'm going to take direction and send that the way I'm being asked to go. Okay. But the director can't tell me that. I have to find that. If I don't find it, it's not found. And when I'm working with actors as a director, that's how I'm looking at them. They have to find that. You know, I can look at you and see what you're doing. And make, you know, a suggestion. It informs something in me. And looking at this overall production of things. But the director's not just working with the actor. The director's working with the text, if the director's really real. In my opinion, going deeper into the playwright's intention. Trying to understand what that is. With also the understanding that the playwright doesn't necessarily understand all that he or she has written. Because creativity is like that. It's like that. Well, for me, directing, I started at Howard University. And my teacher identified me as being a director. Because I took a story about Snow White and wrote a story called Snow Black. And changed the whole thing. And she says, wow, Debbie Allen, you are a director. You need to know that. So, choreography. So, choreography became a natural progression. On fame, I was always paying attention when I was in front of the camera. Noticing what they were doing. I was always paying attention to what was happening. So, when I got the job as the choreographer, I was able to design the choreography with the cameras in mind. And the first director of the pilot, when I was trying to explain it to him, Ashley, unfortunately, patted me on my butt and told me, don't worry yourself. About the cameras. And I looked at him and I said, okay, I won't. But if you don't listen to what I'm saying to you, you'll be here till three in the morning trying to direct and shoot this dance number. And it will be your last episode. And I said that just to neophyte. Because I felt like I needed to tell him. And I wasn't afraid to say it. I didn't have any women's group or nobody there to stand up with me. I was my mother's child. My sister. And I was standing up. Before the day was over, I was calling action and cut. Because he recognized my ability. And it wasn't anything, you know, forget the sexism, foolishness. It was my ability. You're trying to get the job done. So, on Fame, after I had unraveled the DPs of shooting black and white people together, I got my first offer to direct. They said, we want Debbie. We want Debbie. And I directed that first day. And I remember trying to figure out how I was going to dress. Wondering, what do I need to look like? Are they going to pay attention to me? Should I wear something sexy? Should I go man? I wore some pink overalls, my lace socks like I usually do. And I was on it in a way that they were not prepared. I knew what walls were wild. We wrapped one day at 3.30. They said, we want Debbie Allen to direct every show. Because of the pace at which I work, but also my ability with the cameras. So, that just spread into a whole nother world for me as a director. And my understanding of the dramatic narrative from being a classics major at Howard to studying with Uta Hagen in New York, being one of her best students, I feel. And working with some of the greatest directors, Robbins, Bob Fosse, Donald McKay, and Milos Forman. I mean, I had a sensibility of what I could bring. Because as an actor, you are looking at it in a different perspective. And if you become a director, you have all of that. So, it's lighting. It's costuming. It's intent. What is your action need obstacle in this scene? This one is talking, but who is the most important person in this scene? Might just be listening. So, the camera does in film what lighting does on stage. Lighting helps tell you where to look, what's important. The camera can go into your face or it can be here and then. I just have had the most incredible experience becoming a director. And so, I just feel so confident as a director. And I'm sure it makes me a better actor. And I still act. But the whole experience. And the challenge was deep because there were no women when I started. Nowhere in sight. There was maybe a script supervisor and costume designer. All men. And so, I had to make sure I could laugh at those cowboy jokes. I had to make sure that I could hang and have thick skin. Yeah. You can't be thin-skinned. Well, on a lighter note, y'all are beautiful. I mean, just gorgeous. I want to talk a bit about aging gracefully, beautifully, elegantly. Untouched, unpulled, unplugged, unfilled. Untouched, unplugged. You are the best. That's the best. I love that. Unplugged, unfilled. Untouched. Oh, my goodness. Don't see it a lot in the business, in our stages. How do you all think about it? Well, I know one thing. When I first got to Hollywood, this was up young, youthful. The man that was managing me wanted me to go. And get my lips reduced. I said, what are you talking about? And if I'd been gullible, not my mother's child, I might have just said, oh, okay. I said, why? He said, well, you know, it would make them smaller. I said, why do I want them to be small? They look like my daddy's lips. Why do I want them to be smaller? This perception of beauty has to start within. Has to start within. When I took over a different world, one of the first things I did was take everybody's fingernails off. Took off their weave. I said, who are you really? Be able to be comfortable in your skin. God made you. You're beautiful. Accept the beauty of that. You know, aging gracefully is the first thing is to be able to even admit your age. Like, I love my age. I love my age, too. The older I get, I'm just like, look at what I did. Look at that. Yeah, look at that. 62. I know. Can you do it? Hello. Hello. I mean, we have friends that are sitting here. We're in the corner, you know, all retracted. I said, girl, you better go to the museum and go meet your next husband or go get a date or go to this new concert. You better get out. Go to church, honey. Go. You might keep learning. Get out here in the world. But I like the little lines in my face. I actually do. And I've had a lot of my friends much younger than me go in and get this done, that done. And I looked. I said, hmm, maybe. My husband said, you touch your face and I swear. Good for you. Grounds for divorce. That's right. He said, I like you. I love you the way you are. Don't you do anything. So it's about self-love and gracefully aging. And this is the problem is in our industry is so critical. You know, they'll take your picture in People magazine. I don't want to just give them a bad. Okay. They'll take your picture in any of these magazines. But this is what she looked like at 25. Right. This is what she looked like. And it's just like a horror. It's like a horror. It's like a horror movie. It's like, come on, y'all. Did they take the worst picture? The worst picture. You know, they put a picture of me one time about how badly I was dressed. And it wasn't even me. It wasn't even me. My son was furious. I said, it's okay. It's all right. But the industry is cruel. Yeah, it is. It is. And this is why I love seeing people. I love seeing shows like when I see Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren in a show together. At their age. It's fantastic to me. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. What routines keep you fresh? There's that daily practice of meditation. That's, you know, that's quiet time with oneself, right? Yeah. And then you got to get up. You got to get up and move. You got to be quiet and then you got to move. And move because the body is made and engineered for, designed for movement. Yeah. And then, you know, without getting boring, paying attention to what you ingest. Yes. You know, what you, and I like to explore new things, you know, go to new restaurants and do, but they're just, you know, certain foods that I know are agreeable. Yeah. And some are less agreeable. Some are very beneficial. Everything that tastes good is not necessarily beneficial. No, it's not. No, it's not. Get rid of young people as you get older. Get rid of young people. All the delicious stuff that doesn't. We had Kevin Hart on and we had a whole conversation about how you can't eat anything as you get older. It's like, oh my God, there's lemon in that water? Oh, mess me up. It's like you just, you know, you got your body. body. is telling you, okay now, can't do that anymore. That's right. Can't do that anymore. And then you try things. Like I won't say, I'm not going to name names. Okay. I wouldn't try this facial thing, some kind of electronic. Child, I thought I was in the electric chair. I'm like, oh, no, no, no. I thought it was burning my face. I said, you're going to kill me. Then I did, I tried this peel one time, left me with scabs all over my face. I said, okay, I'm done. I'm done. Thank you. Thank you next. And just, you know, just cocoa butter is natural. Coconut, you know. Lotion. Vitamin E. And I find. I'm trying to tell my white friends about lotion. You know, I was like, everybody's like, you're so soft. I'm like, it's lotion, y'all. And you too need lotion. Part of the showering process is lotion, right? It goes with the whole cleanliness process is shower lotion. Sometimes it's lotion, shower, lotion. That's how important lotion is. Yeah. Well, you are doing it right. You are doing it right. And I know you guys have a hard out. And one of the things we like to do is a listener question because people, we're IMO in my opinion. So this is a time where we can give an opinion to a viewer. So why don't we hear the listener question? I'm in my mid forties and have been in the same career for about 15 years. However, I long ago realized that it isn't really working for me. I feel like I'm bored and I'm not that interested in the work. During the pandemic, I took some time to do online courses to explore other paths and found that I loved coding and technology. But at that time, I didn't think of actually switching careers. Now I'm curious to see what it might be like to pursue a different career path. But I keep feeling too old and far along to make a switch. And starting over in a different career as a total beginner is deeply intimidating to me. I also am worried about jeopardizing the stability that I've worked so hard to build over nearly two decades. I know you both have talked about pivoting, but can you talk specifically about what it means to switch things up in midlife and later in life? How do I balance responsibilities with risk in a healthy way? Any advice is much appreciated. And this is from Linda. Linda, you're a baby in your mid-40s. That's the first stop, Linda. I thought you were going to say 70. That's like, oh, she's 40. Okay. Oh, my goodness. You know what? Let me just say this first. Change is the nature of the universe. There's nothing in this universe that is stagnant, moving, constantly changing, rotating. Astral dust is penetrating us right this minute. We can perceive it all the time, but change is the nature of the universe. So, I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that. So, it's exciting if you find yourself wanting to kickball change to another style of dance or kickball change to whatever this career is. I think that's exciting. And don't be afraid to be the oldest one. My mom was in classical Greek class. She was 80-something when she went. How old was mommy when she went to- She was not 80. How old was mommy? She was not 80. How old was mommy? You're ruining the story. I know. I'm sorry, but exaggeration is not going to help. She went over to New Jersey. How old was mommy then? When she went to, okay, I think she was in her late 60s. 60s going on 70. Yeah. She was in her late 60s. Going on 70. So, 40 is a baby. That's all I'm saying. But the point is, when you were young, 70 wasn't like 80. Yeah. When we were young. When we were young. Everybody who was 60- 50 was like 100. Seemed like they were 80. You're right. Yeah, that's true. You're right. So, but, yeah. Yeah. So, that was always inspiring to us. And mommy was still going to college, still wanting to learn, still pushing the envelope of something different, something new, or expanding her knowledge of whatever it was she's interested in. So, this is the nature of the universe. And the nature of man is inquiry and being curious. And that will bring change, which is a good thing. What do I say, Craig? Stay curious. Be curious. Yes. I'm the one who pivots all the time, so I know what's going on. Yeah. I think your point of view, you know, your in-look is going to determine so much. And if you're approaching anything with so much doubt and fear, okay, that's what you're manifesting. You know, don't give up on the creative power of your own thought. Oh, yeah. Those are some snaps. I like that. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Don't give up on that. So, the truth of the matter is that whatever your career is, you kind of created that, right? And you can create something else. It's your point of view. Yeah. So, let's just eliminate the fear and the doubt and see what happens. Yeah. There you go. There you go. I mean, this is a panel full of people. Who have had many pivots, you know? I mean, I've been a lawyer, the dean of students, you know, the head of a non-profit, you know, the vice president. I could go on and on. I have had so many different careers and so many different hats. And every change has led to some really exponential growth, you know? And I would just keep that in mind. Real growth comes from change. And you have to be a bit humble and you have to be okay not knowing and you have to be okay making mistakes. You know, even something as I've started playing tennis in my adult life and it takes a lot of time to get a backhand and to get a this. And I just tell my pro, it's like, my God, why can't I do this? But I'm used to doing things well. And I think taking up different sports has allowed me to feel humble that, oh, I don't know how to do this. And I'm not supposed to. So let me just be patient. And it takes a lot of hours to learn something new. So I would just, you know, urge our listener to be patient, you know, and not only to have a good attitude and to manifest something powerful, but then you have to be patient with yourself in the process. You're not going to go to the next thing and run it, you know? You got to learn it. You got to fail at it. You got to grow from it, you know? And if she's willing to do that. Sky's the limit. Sky's the limit. And I think the only thing I'll add, because you three have really summed it up, I want to take a page from your parents. Because at a time when people weren't even using the term lifetime learners, they were lifetime learners. They were ahead of their time. And I've found as I've gotten older, and especially doing this podcast, I mean, I have a blast sitting here messing around with my sister. That's the best. Learning something brand new at this age has been glorious. And it's hard. It's been hard, but it's been glorious. I was so happy you all were here. Oh, my gosh. This was so fun. Thank you. This was the best. Thanks for inviting us. We've got to talk all hour. I know. I know. I know. There's so much more. I know. But thank you for being here, for taking the time. Thank you. And being so open and refreshing. Oh, my gosh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's been really neat. Love you both deeply, really deeply. We love you. Thank you. Thank you so much. You too, Craig. Yes, Craig. We love you. See, I get to do a lot of fun stuff hanging out with this one. Well, good luck on all things to come. Anything exciting, particularly for both of you all, that you want to make sure we know about? We got the different world reboot and 800 other things that you're doing. Purpose is going to Los Angeles and then to London. Awesome. Isn't that exciting? Oh. Yeah. Fell in love with Carrie Young through that. Oh, isn't she wonderful? It's just like, what a little dynamo. She's singular. Yes. She is singular. Congratulations on everything you all have done and what you will continue to do. I love you both. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.