Stately Homes: Inside Britain’s Historic Houses with Alice Loxton

There is a reason that fashion shoots and TV and films, they always go to country houses and state-learned homes. Yes, it's true. And I think we take it for granted because we live here. These were banqueting houses, right? So they were built for the purpose of basically having deserts, a kind of after dinner party house. Our ability to have a navy and to have these connections all around the world really brought in huge amounts of wealth to Britain's story. And the state-learned home is with that. I think Blen and Palace is a high point, if you want to talk about state-learned homes. It's like the real exemplar of absolute grandeur. In 1933, he had one of his big parties in Britain holding down. - Good gracious. - Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't just civil wars that were bringing these houses down. - Yeah, exactly. - That rage as party. Yeah, exactly. Hello and welcome to the Luxury Dispatch, the podcast that reveals the refined and the rare. People, items and stories that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain, and today we should be stepping into a world of long drives, hidden libraries echoing halls in the layers of history that cling to stone, wood and landscape. It is the world of state-learned homes. These houses are more than architecture. They are repositories of taste, power, patronage and craft. One might even say that the story of British luxury is written as much in country houses as it is in workshops and detelliers, or indeed the enduring craftsmanship of legacy brands such as Swain. To help us explore that landscape, I'm joined by Alice Lockstone. Historian writer and one of the most engaging interpreters of Britain's past and the palaces that hold it. Alice, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. No, thank you very much, coming on. This is very exciting. Somebody who knows what they're talking about. At long last, where do we start from when we're talking about state-learned homes? Is there a point where it converted from being a sort of martial statement to something slightly more luxurious? Yes, well, I think it's probably best to start from the beginning, Britain has a very long history of building quite impressive structures. So you could even go back as far as, say, 1066, following the Norman Conquest when William the Conqueror was building all kinds of fortifications. So the likes of the Tower of London and Warwick Castle and Dover Castle. And these were, many of these have evolved into state-learned homes over the years. And these tell us a lot about what the medieval world was like in that these are built as defensive structures. You know, they've got great castle walls. They've got aroslits. They've got castellations. And so they are really built to reflect, or they are a great reflection of England at the time. We had William the Conqueror building, establishing himself in the new Norman dynasty. But then, even during the time of Edward I, he subdued the Welsh. And in that period, he built all of these castles along the Welsh border. And this was a time where there were skirmishes happening all the time within England. So if you look at the walls of the roses, say, that was in the 1400s, there was fighting going all the time. So you can see there was a real practical reason all it to be defensive. And you can look at places like Heaver Castle, which later became the home of Ann-Billen, the second wife of Henry VIII. Or you could look at Leeds Castle, which again was lived in for hundreds and hundreds of years, all the way through to the 20th century. And these are surrounded by water. They are very much the classic fairy tale medieval castle in our minds, I, if you like. But I think a point where it changes, an important point in British history is 1485. The Battle of Bosworth, it is the end of the walls of the roses, which was a very, very turbulent time, if you like. This was a period between the Yorkists and the Lankastrians, the country really divided in civil war. And that came to an end unified under the Tudor dynasty. And we see that in the Tudoros, the red and the white. And in the next century or so, we see this flowering of quite different palaces. First of all, they're not necessarily defensive in the way that they had been in the medieval period. So you might look at somewhere like Hampton Court Palace, which was built by Thomas Wurzzy. And that is more in a kind of Renaissance palace sort of style. Perhaps inspired by similar palaces in Europe. And these are much more demonstrations of luxury and wealth than being practical defensive fortifications. And so that's a big moment of change. It's also a big moment in the Tudor period, of course, is one of the biggest moments of land change in British history with the dissolution of the monasteries. A huge swathes of land were seized by Henry VIII. All of the church land, the church was incredibly wealthy at this point. Lots of the land was seized and redistributed amongst his supporters. So if you ever go to a country house where it's called something Abbey, it probably means that land was originally an Abbey. Perhaps Wobernabbey, for example. So that's an interesting thing to look out for. And then in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I, we see this real flowering of what they call prodigy houses, which are these incredibly elaborate, incredibly decadent buildings, which are completely different to the castles you see in the medieval period. So a real classic example of this is Hardwick Hall, which was the house of Beths of Hardwick. And Beths of Hardwick was the second wealthiest woman in England after Elizabeth I. And it's covered in windows. The rhyme went, "Hardwick Hall, more glass than wall." And if you think about creating a defensive structure, well, glass is definitely not something good with that. So that gives you an indication of it being a time of peace. But it's an incredibly impressive structure. There's state rooms inside. It could have been a royal palace in its own way. There's this beautiful long gallery where amazing portraits on the walls. So really splendid, I'd say, in all its other ways. So when these buildings started to be built, was there a kind of a hesitance or a shyness around filling it with ornate and beautifully crafted things? Were there artists and craftsmen just ready to go as soon as people were saying, "Actually, I'm ready to commission you to do something." Because obviously, prior to that, with all the cards and stuff, it had to be rudimentary and stick to its principal purpose, which is, as you say, defensive. Well, absolutely. I mean, what we're forgetting here is that there were many, many craftsmen in the medieval period, exceptionally skilled, perhaps, staying glass or working with metal, creating beautiful objects, which are covered in jewels. But of course, these were within the church. So these would have been working on the great cathedrals. If you imagine some of the shrines of medieval England, of which there were many, they are some of the most elaborate and ornate kind of works of art. And these were destroyed by Henry VIII. So we tend to forget about them. The churches would have been adorned with really beautiful wall paintings, of course, illuminated manuscripts, which were decorated with beautiful gold leaf, and a really high standard of craftsmanship. And so we had all of these skills within England at the time, but they weren't necessarily being used in the domestic settings. I mean, when you look at the early Tudor period and the late medieval period, some of the most ornate private houses were those that were lived in by the churchmen, the bishops, that sort of thing. So we did have all of these skills, and I think they were ready to go, but it went to, I suppose, the customer was different, if you like. Yeah, it was struck as interesting, it wouldn't be too long until Dauer Olde of Acromole come along, and he wasn't particularly keen on all these kinds of things. But the origin of luxury is when the king would assign a commission to a craftsman to make something like special clothes, a bit of furniture, a saddlery, anything like that. And that craftsman would then, through the raw patronage, all the aristocrats would just swoop in and follow suit. Was there an architecture equivalent? I mean, was it because the practices of creating, you know, ceiling roses or trellises or anything to do with actually making a building is very different to something that's sort of a practical personal use? Well, it's interesting because, of course, before the Renaissance, before the, you know, it's a real big time of change, the 1500s, because before this point, we didn't really have individual, famous architects or artists. They were more artisans or craftsmen, that's how they were perceived. Of course, so it's very difficult when you're writing about paintings or architecture in the many. You are a moment, right? Which I am, yes. It's very exciting. Which is something I found difficult, because, you know, I'm trying to bring these paintings to life, but we never know who the artists are. There, for example, this book that I've been writing about, this manuscript called The Luxural Salsa, we just have to know it's a group of amazing artists who are in this monastic establishment, but we just don't know their names and we never will. And that's just because of the changing perceptions of individual genius, rather than general craftsmanship, right? Okay, so who were generally the people who would first get stately homes? It all originates from families who own land, perhaps, stretching back to the Norman Conquest, and it is just as the country changes and as those time goes on, that the style of these houses changes, in the way that we've discussed from the castle to some of these prodigy houses, less about defence, more about luxury and showing off and conspicuous consumption. I think it's in the 1600s that you really see some of these incredibly onnate houses that we might consider to be stately homes. But considers what I've noticed through documentaries and stuff is seeing that often the state give it to people for particular services to the state, which in my head I sort of think that means the state already owned them, but in many cases actually the state sort of requisitioned them. So you talk about how to call Palace for example, which was Thomas Woolsey, at some point that became the sort of retreat for the Royal family. So they took it back or they took it over. So the state had the power to requisition these houses and then give it to whoever they wanted ultimately. Yeah, absolutely. And the two-depeared is chaotic in that manner because people are constantly coming in and out of favour. I mean Thomas Woolsey, when he drops out of favour, it becomes a royal palace and that's how it ends up in that way. Another example though, for example, is Heaver Castle and Berlin's house. So that is part of the Berlin family, but that was actually given to another of Henry the eight wives, Anne of Cleaves. So it was where Anne of Cleaves, wife number four, went to stay after she'd been rejected or. Prebeheading. No, no, no, she was the one who was the father. At least she was divorced again, wasn't she? Yeah, so she actually got off quite well. She just sent it up at Heaver Castle. Yeah, very fine. But you know, these are the other houses. Some of these houses do go through quite hilarious changes of ownership in that dramatic period. But of course the distribution of the monasteries was the big one. Yeah. And suddenly all of this land that had been owned by the church was redistributed. But I mean the big kind of gift I suppose of a monarch to a subject is Blening Palace. Yes, which is the only non-apiscopal palace I believe. Yeah, that's what people say, isn't it? And I think it is a private home which is a palace. Yes. And I think they call it that because it's just absolutely vast. It is big. Yeah. And it's called Blening Palace. Yeah, close to the name. And yeah, which is still like one of the most famous church that was born there. And people sort of think of it as a real emblem of Britain and it's still very popular. Absolutely. I mean I think Blening Palace is a kind of a high point if you want to talk about stately homes. It's got a massive state, massive lands around it, just unbelievably grand. It is unusual of course because unlike other stately homes which are developed naturally through the centuries by the same family living there, it was, it had this moment where it was built for a purpose not to be a prime, not really to be a family house, but to be a kind of commemoration, a celebration of a war. So it's Marx, the 1704 Battle of Bleningh, which was part of the War of the Spanish Succession and John Churchill, who was the great favourite of Queen Anne. He was the Duke of Mulbra and he was married to Sarah Churchill, who is the figure in the favourite people might have seen in that film. So it's that kind of strange relationship between the two women. But it was gifted to them that land. And in the early part of the 18th century, this incredible palace was built there. And it is absolutely vast. I mean this is a moment of the Baroque. And the Baroque is the most frivolous extravagance eccentric, it's not very British in many ways. But it is the most splendid I suppose of styles. I think, you know, if we think about the Renaissance as the kind of divine perfection and balance and symmetry and order, or the Baroque which comes from the word Baroque means miss shape and pearl. And it's a kind of pushing the Renaissance a bit further and it's pushing that perfection further to be flamboyant and fun and extravagant. So, you know, in Blaine and Palace, they have, well, it's totally over the top, isn't it? When you go there, it's completely over the top. And there's all of these symbols of war. There's cannons and cannonballs and lions and spears inside. There are paintings, tromperoy paintings. So these kind of visual optical illusions painted on the walls and that in itself is quite playful and silly because, you know, you're kind of joking about whether you're looking at what you don't know what you're looking at quite. But also, it's sometimes got sections where the kind of exterior architecture is positioned within the interior. So all confusing and upside down, that kind of thing. So it's a fun kind of style, I think. And Blaine is the real Baroque kind of Van Bauer's real Baroque masterpiece. And Van Bauer is having a big year this year. It's Van Bauer 300, 300 years since his death. So you'll probably say a lot of Van Bauer things happening. Maybe this is the first. Yeah. Please pick that up. What's the kind of ratio between, for example, these places being the kind of primary seats of landowners who administered their land from these places. But then also, I know that a lot of people in London used these houses as ways to get away from the kind of pestilence of London at the time. Whenever there was plague, small pox, whatever, they would escape to these places. This is a hampton court palace was a really good example of that. You know, people think of Hampton as sort of being more or less a part of London, but actually back then it was quite a journey. So what's your sense of the divide between the two is a kind of place for play, but also a place for business or actually working the land that you own? The big thing about the countryside houses is they're connected to a lot of land. So that would have been bringing in a huge amount of income and it was until recent times. So there is a very practical need for these country estates, which is the family income. The London house might be because you might have to do business in London. You might have to be at court that sort of thing or be seen in the presence of the monarch. So there are different roles for all these houses and people did move around a great deal. So some very wealthy families would have had many, many houses and we see in later years when they weren't able to pay debt duties. They would be able to just get rid of one because they had others in the portfolio. And people might have had various points houses abroad as well in later years. But I mean, you see in the two-day period that some of these countryside houses were, you know, they were built to expect a visit from the monarchs, say. So that might have been an important role as well. And I think. A lot of you went bankrupt. Yeah, it did bankrupt quite a few people. But I think that says quite a lot because actually it indicates that this was, okay, you can have your house in London or whatever. But this is, you know, probably the house which is attached to your title. This is the house which provides your income. So this is, you know, more of a much more of your identity and the demonstration of what your family, where your family is based and what they're connected to. How big of a difference did the empire make to the landscape of Stately Holmes? Well, Henry VIII founded the Navy, right? Sure. And Henry VIII founded the Navy, or Henry VII did really, but Henry VIII is really credited with expanding the Navy in the years that followed Britain had connections all around the world because of this naval influence. Really began under Lizabeth I and then over the 1700 and 1800s. She was sending out privateers to go and raid Spanish. That's it, yeah. And also the East India company was founded these years. With that, all kinds of products come through. So all kinds of things like with the slave trade. We had all kinds of products like coffee and sugar and cotton. And this brought a huge amount of wealth. In the 1770s, 80% of foreign income came from goods produced by enslaved people. So you can see how that, you know, these kind of expansions could provide a Britain with a lot of wealth. And that, you know, those products would have come into places like Liverpool and being processed and sold on and everything. So, I mean, our ability to have a Navy and to have these connections all around the world really brought in huge amounts of wealth to Britain's story. And the state, the home is with that. And when you see some of the objects in these houses, beautiful objects, materials from all around the world, you see these influences in these trade routes coming in. But having said that, many of the designs of places like Blenem or any of the houses in the 18th century, they're still influenced largely by ancient Greece, ancient Rome. So connections that we've had for many, many years with Italy and Greece. So they'll have classical columns or they'll have pediments or they'll have colonnades. You know, it's not really, I don't think the connections with the rest of the world really influenced the design architecturally that much. And it was still very much based in what had been seen as the pinnacle of art and architecture and the Renaissance, which was the ancient classical world. But perhaps the riches that came from the empire allowed the residents of these places to thrive within them. I mean, I imagine upkeep even back then was the kind of betenoire of any own reverse, stale home. So, yeah, so if you're fueled by, fuel definitely, like the wealth definitely come from from around the world. But I think it's interesting that the style didn't really affect the style. Yeah, they didn't change it. Yes, yeah, exactly. And so entertaining has always been a big part of Stately Holmes. Should we sort of touch on that a little bit? Sometimes with quite bad consequences to the houses themselves. But what goes on behind the doors of these places? Yeah, well, what springs to mind? I was saying in Chippen, Camden recently, and it's this old Camden house that was once stood there. And I was saying, you can stay. This is part of the landmark trust, which is wonderful charity. And you can stay in. It's so good. It's so good. They did a TV show, which my wife and I obsessive with where they basically, they're so good old, like dairy farm. And so they suddenly turn into this amazing place you can go stay at. It's brilliant. It is amazing. It is amazing what they do. Yeah. So pick up the landmark trust. Yeah. I'm huge fan. So they restore all of these amazing kind of ruinous historic structures around the country. And then they let them out short term holiday. So I went to stay in one of them recently. And this was the remains of old Camden house. So this was originally a beautiful house in the Cotsworlds, destroyed in the Civil War. That was another great period of destruction for lots of these castles and cunch houses. Yeah, so interesting. I was thinking about that when you were talking about how the sort of 14,500s when these were starting to emerge because sort of peacetime seemed to be coming where within a century the Civil War was going to go. And we would back at each other's story. Should have been built there. They were thinking we should have put emotic. Yeah, exactly. But they, but in this, so with this house in Chippenhamden, the house doesn't exist anymore. But what does exist and what does remain. And for some reason they didn't bother to destroy us, is a two buildings which stood either side of the house incredibly ornate with all sorts of quite wonderful architectural flamboyance. And these were banqueting houses. So they were built for the purpose of basically having dessert, a kind of after dinner party house, I suppose. And I just think that's so emblematic of I suppose you never really, it's very hard to kind of think about our ancestors as having loads of fun and letting loose and everything. But they built who banqueting houses pretty close to each other, which is a real indication of how much they values having a good time. And of course the introduction of things like hunting and shooting, just kind of developed this whole capacity to do it often. Yes, of course. Yeah. And have guests and have visitors. I suppose and follow, you know, think about follies. Why do they come about in the the 1700s? These are just buildings that are built as a folly. They are a folly in themselves. There is no point to them. They're just there for fun. But they were often used for entertaining. They were often dotted around the landscape as a way to perhaps, you know, you'd go there for tea or you'd go and have dinner there. But you'd also be able to demonstrate the estate and demonstrate the perhaps grounds designed by capability brown or something like that, which might have another view of this, the house in the distance. So all of it is kind of different ways to show off that. Yeah, because obviously the one of the things that everybody did back then was, well, certainly in the 18th century and 19th century was go riding routinely in the morning. And so you'd want stuff further out from the house to be able to ride to and to show off and to sort of, yeah, so this is where the whole idea of the morning seat comes from. So the jacket itself was designed to be ridden in because people would ride out in the morning and that's what you would wear. And now a word from our sponsors. 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Britain had, because when people talk about the jet set in the 50s and 60s, we think of the Italians and the French and the American Indians in the South of France. But before that, we had the period of the coterie and Britain and it's real hay day of riches and the idle youth and the idle rich. Country houses played a big part in this. In fact, Jesus was the TV show. It's a great demonstration of these amazing houses, because Berthie's constantly going out to see his aunt in one of the top towers and things like that. But they were places where it wasn't necessarily always a Jane Austen kind of waltzing and shivalry and things. It became, they became quite sort of Derrasset risqué. And so there's Manning Wolf Bernardo, he was one of the Bentley boys. He was the one who raced the the blue train from the South front to London and Beatis and his car, Bentley Blower, was the kind of star guest at the Savoy and sat in the centre of the Big Table as a kind of sort of party to celebrate his race. But no, he used to hold huge parties up at his house and his house was called Ardenrun. And in 1933, he had one of his big parties and burnt the whole thing down. Good gracious. Yeah. So yeah, so it was it was it was people got up to all sorts of mischief and were so ruinous consequences. Yeah, it's outrageous party. Yeah, it's actually. What's there do you think in your mind are kind of heyday for the stately home in terms of not only when they were being built, but when they were the sort of social centre of Britain's society. A big moment and a big theme that we should definitely talk about is the Grand Tour, which is when young men who are aristocratic as they would soon inherit these greater states or perhaps even had at that point would go out to Italy, often Italy, Greece, perhaps other place in Europe, to France, and they would go and become cultures in terms of learning about the kind of the artistic gems that were out there, but they would also buy lots of objects from which were actually antique objects or even great works of art from the Renaissance and they would bring them back to their houses and they would furnish their houses with these with these wondrous pieces of art. And so lots of their houses that we see stay if you go and walk walk around stately homes much of the art, much of the interior decoration has come from those trips and that is why lots of them have a particular kind of slant towards the classical world, partly because when they then returned to their country house, they would also ask them to redesign it in this way that was inspired by ancient Greece, ancient Rome. And so I do think that that was a moment where perhaps the idea in our mind of what a state-liome or a country house might be was kind of consolidated because there was a real style. This is, we're probably talking about 1780s, 1790s. That was a real style where lots of them were designed in a very, very particular way. I mean, a really important architect at this time was Robert Adam. When he was younger, he went to split and he looked at the palace of diocletian. And he did lots of drawings and kind of recorded what he found there. And lots of that inspired his work and his designs. And he went on to design lots of important buildings, including parts of Edinburgh, Newtown as well. So it's not just the country house, it's also the kind of urban architecture as well in this period. And lots of parts of London, there was a street called Robert the Adeleph, the Adeleph, which is by the strand, that was all this big kind of complex by the Adam brothers. But Spencer House as well was a big design around this time. Because there are such things London's slightly hens on there. So you've got, as you see, Spencer's absolutely house. There was Burlington House. I know, London used to be covered with all these massive houses. Devonshire House was an amazing one. And lots of them have been all that. Because people don't realise when they go visit the Royal Academy, they're visiting Burlington House. Which when you think about it and you think about all of those young aristos in London, having those massive houses and just going to different parties around London. Yeah. That's been nuts. And so, I mean, because this is a thought that's occurred to me, because you were talking about the sort of hesitation from these people to constantly upgrade things. And at one point though, there would have had to have been various things for sort of hygiene purposes or technology purposes like plumbing, wiring, things like that. When that happened, did that cause a sort of an issue for the owners? Did they have to do lots of rebuilds or was it fairly straightforward to do? I just think about it because it's quite a big thing. You never build a house now and say, in five years I'll put in plumbing. You're going to say, "This is true." This is true. I mean, I think they were rebuilding things all the time. Right. And they were constantly building new houses in that period. Sometimes they might have been on the site of. I mean, Blaine and Palace is on the site of Woodstock Palace, which is a medieval palace. Right. So, they were constantly knocking down and rebuilding and everything was kind of going all the time. So, even though it might have been rooted in very old architectural styles and, you know, perhaps a style that to us doesn't look like it's changed much, they were constantly editing and changing things and moving things around. Were the royal houses that we know today are sort of. Were they notable in. Were they particularly advanced? But I mean, certainly Buckingham Palace was, you know, was only built. You know, the Quivertoria moved in after she was. It was the house of Buckingham. I think that's why it's called that. Yes. So, it was a private. It wasn't a royal house originally. And then they bought it and then they moved in. Okay, because she was at Kensington Palace and she moved around a lot. Yeah. So, Kensington Palace was Quim Victoria's. That's where she grew up. Yeah. But yeah, Buckingham Palace is obviously the big one now. And, well, the historic royal palace as they are now known are. Tavelundern, Hampton Court, Buckingham Palace and Kensington Palace. That's like the organisation that manages them. And Holyrood House as well in Scotland. There's Windsor Castle. And of course, Windsor Castle, yeah. So, there's quite a few around. Yeah, yeah, there's a. You know, Sandringo and so forth. And so, but was there the expedition that the Royals would always have the pick of the bunch? That's why Blending Palace is interesting, because. Before that point, I think the Royals did have the largest houses, right? They had the most impressive houses and it would be quite something to try and upstage them. Yeah. It would be the not done thing. So, the great houses would be places like Hampton Court Palace. Or there was a great palace on White Hall, which no longer survives. The only bit of that, which survives, is the Banquetting House, which is this amazing ceiling by Innego Jones, the rest of it burnt down at the end of the 19th century. But, what is extraordinary in the 18th century is that because we have all this wealth coming in from around the world, people have this independent wealth that they're building, these incredibly extravagant quasi-palaces, I suppose. And that's why we suddenly see all of these beautiful houses arising, and people living in houses which are much grander than what the Royals might be putting up with. Have you had a Trentham Hall? Yes, I have, yes. Which there's that amazing quote. Yes, from the shower of Persia said, "The then Prince of Wales and soon to be head with the Seventh, this is too grand for a subject you've got to lock his head off when you're when you become king." Yes, he will, he will, he will outside news. But it is a, it's quite a good house to discuss because ultimately that fell victim to the 20th century sort of demolishing of stately homes. So, let's move on to the 20th century, the wars and how these homes suddenly became in peril, not because of blitzes and so forth, but because of internal issues that meant they had to be destroyed. If we think that the peak of stately homes maybe was the late 18th century and the 19th century, there was a huge amount of wealth coming in. I think the sad decline of the stately home does come in the 20th century. There is a reason, you know, there's various reasons for that. I mean, the first thing to say is that there were so many staff supporting these places and they required a huge number of people just to keep them going. And you get a sense of that in downtown Abbey. In the First World War, big problem was a massive loss of labour, lots of the staff, I mean, huge amounts of people died in the First World War and that represented a chunk of staff who and and indeed those who who lived in the houses and inherited them. But there was also a big problem with inheritance. This is something that had existed in the late 19th century. But we see rising levels of inheritance tax throughout the 20th century. So it actually starts before the First World War. In 1894, death duties as they were known were set to 8% on a state's worth over 1 million. And we see the impact of this on houses such as Trenton Hall which we lost in 1910s. In 1919, death duties were 40% on a state's worth more than 2 million and by 1940 it was 65%. So you can see a real jump up there. It was amazing also the fact that during the demolishing they tried to basically these families are trying to kind of flog the inside. There was an advert for Trenton of like by the sort of earns that would have been sort of the stone earns that would have been on the roof of these buildings like trying to sort of sell off these things just to kind of get a little bit of cash. Yeah, I know it is sad to look at it and and and so of course because it was becoming so expensive to have these estates, it was cheaper often to sell them off or just to not them down. Yes, inheritance tax was huge after the Second World War and the rules for planning permission and restoration was also extremely limited. The government were just not letting anybody fix anything. I see. So things were falling very much into disrepair and think about the staff thing. There was a story about, it was during the Great War when but it could have been the Second World War when the government went to the Duke of Devonshire and said we understand that your grace needs about learning a footman and a you know an underfootman and and a livery staff and coachman and all these sorts of things but does your grace really need to paste your shares and his reply was good God can a man not have a biscuit. Quite right. Quite right. But it's interesting. I mean I think the role of country houses and state homes in the Second World War and the First World War in this period is really important as well because you know they suddenly are used for the public good in a strange way. So if you take for example Blenden Palace and you take the long library it's got some amazing library there at one end, Stachio Queen Anne who was the great benefactor of the state originally. At the other end it's got this amazing organ and just so many books it's like a fairytale library in lots of ways. In the First World War this was used as a hospital so troops would be recovering here. In the Second World War they had vacuities here from more than college so they had loads of school children there and this you know it's a completely different way of using these spaces and there's this wonderful story from Blenheim where the current Duke of Mobra received a letter some 20 years ago now and it was obviously written from a wife of one of the boys who had been there as evacuees and it said, oh yeah it said it was my husband's dying wish that you should have these and enclosed in this anonymous letter with three tiny pipes from the organ and obviously they'd stolen these boys. The minority had stolen that so many boys. The evacuees had stolen it from the organ and he'd spent his whole life even until his death bed he'd let his whole life in a guilty that he'd stolen these pipes this boy who grew up to be an old man eventually but yeah eventually sent it back. That's such a nice story. And I think the requisitioning is a really interesting aspect of the story of St. Leigh Hunz's, because literally thousands and thousands of casualties would have been put up in these places. Because, you know, they are big places. And so can house lots of, I know that Sir Philip's is soon, probably one of the great best dress politicians of all time. He had a, he well he had two, so to state the homes and it was used by, I think it was naval intelligence for interrogations and things like that. So there were some for military purposes, sometimes for educational purposes and medical, you know, so they were put to all kinds of use. And it wasn't just stately homes, you know, think about Oxford University was full of, I think the examination halls in Oxford University was full of troops just returned from France, you know. In all kind of states of distress. So it must have been a complete upheaval those years of war, both times where all of these institutions, which have a very particular purpose for many many years, suddenly that was all upturned. And also crucially, the sons of the owners of these places were often going to fight them, often die. So the lines of succession were just just shot to pieces, literally. And we, so families just, the titles died out because no one had a living air. There were lots and lots of purposes. So thinking about that, what do you think we lose every time one of these homes gets demolished? Well, as we've discussed, you know, there is such a long history of many of these houses, even if they were only built in the 18th century, they probably stand on a site that's had people inhabiting it for many many centuries before that. So I think it's, you have to think about them, not just as kind of these grandhouses of the rich and the powerful, but actually as these kind of microcosms and insight into Britain's story over hundreds and hundreds of years. And I think when you watch films series like Downton Abbey, you do get the sense that these are almost mini towns in their own right. Like a kind of mini version of bigger events. So it's not just these kind of insights into art and architecture, often at the forefront of creating these really beautiful spaces, but also these, these tell the story and have reflected the lives of millions of people collectively who have lived in their work there. And so it's a kind of contribution, all sorts of different ways, not just those upstairs, but those downstairs as well, and also those downstairs, I say. And to every time, you know, that it is such a kind of core thread in our story as our churches and cathedrals, but but state the homes because of their connection to the land and because of their connection to the people in that land. And the churches in those places, well, I mean, they're just so embedded in our story that to lose any is a real loss. There are plenty. It might be hard to whittle down to a short list, which of the houses do you think tells the truest story of Britain? And we can't go back to London Palace. Yes, one of my favorite houses to go and visit is Hatfield House, not far from London. It was here at Old Hatfield House, this beautiful, Tudor Redbrook building with this wonderful, kind of formal garden. And this is where Elizabeth I as a young girl grew up. And it's also in the grounds here that there's this Elizabeth oak where the original tree is supposedly where Elizabeth I was told the news that her sister had died. And she was to be queen and she utters the words apparently it is the Lord's doing and it is wonderful in our eyes, which is not not normally what people say when they hear about this sister's death, but you know, the Tudor family. She had bigger fist to five news coming away. Interesting you mentioned you find up. I have here a whip from Hatfield House. Now this was made by Swain who were whip makers to, I mean, this far back is George the third and five of his six sons, so not all six, not quite. They're in manager six, but they got the five of the six. Wow, well, that's a good number. But that would have been, so there was another house at Hatfield, the, the, the Burley family. And that's Elizabeth's advisor builds this another like magnificent house next to you. Amazing. So it's probably, I must be from that, that generation. Well, I think one of the most extraordinary things about British history and many of these houses is that they are incredibly old. And they offer a cross section of centuries and centuries of change and developments. So for me, the most exciting ones are the ones which really tap into every moment of that story. You know, Blenden Palace isn't one of those because it starts in the beginning of the 18th century, very abruptly. But if you take four example, Warwick Castle, which has foundations in the time of William the Conqueror, which is just so wild to me, you know, some of the historic organizations at the moment, are planning there a thousand year anniversary. Like that is so crazy that amount of time. But Warwick Castle is particularly here old, but, but you know, over the years, it is a kind of military fortress and the Earl of Warwick is using it during the, Yeah, it's a little closer to the one with the Ublea, the sort of, the, the, the, the sort of hole, which is a bit of a straight in. Like Nightmarish, but which you go down these steps and you go into this dark area and then there's this kind of small kind of section and opening in the side of the wall and that's the, the Ublea, Ublea, I don't know if people say it in different ways, but it's supposedly where they would just put people in and leave them to forget is what it means. Yeah, yeah, but it's interesting that it goes through all of these developments over the years and you can go and visit there and you can go into all the different kinds of interiors and then even up to the, the mod, you know, the modern day and you can see the Victorian, that the kind of lavishness in the Victorian period in the 20s. And that's replicated in many different houses. So if you look at Leeds Castle, which we mentioned earlier, which is a classic medieval castle surrounded by a moat in the 20s, Lady Bailey, who was the lady who lived there, she hosted so many glamorous people and it really had a great revival and people like Charlie Chaplin with their great writers, like, honestly, the most glamorous people in that period that in the 20s and 30s and another important kind of thing to think about is that many of these houses had huge amounts of injections of cash from American buyers at very points. So another example is Heaver Castle. It was originally built in the 13th century, again, beautiful medieval castles surrounded by a moat in the 2-Depyred, it was lived in by the Belins and Berlin and a Cleaves. And it fell into various moments of decline and it was rescued by the Astas. So William Waldorf Astas, who was one of the richest men in America, swooped in, bought it and create this massive wing, the Astor wing, it's basically a village. And he, again, like Lady Bailey at Leeds Castle, would host loads of glamorous people there and it was the place to be, the social set would be there sort of thing. And so you see a sort of pickup of that house's journey in an unexpected way. But again, it's where the monies come from. In the 18th century, there was a lot of money in these houses because of Britain's international reach. In the 20th century, it's often because it's the Americans who come in and support it. Yeah, so it's a, it's a surprising journey. And another thing to say about these houses, and it's that they are often at the forefront of not only art and design, but also technology. Yeah, you know, Vita Sackville West, who was the great writer, and she grew up at one of the greatest houses in the country, which is Null in Seven Oaks in Kent. It was a house that was supposed, it's called a calendar house because supposedly it's got 365 rooms. Actually, it's got more than that. But you know, they loved, they loved saying that and it's incredibly ornate. It's one of the great houses of the National Trust Collection. And she writes about when she's a young girl that her parents, her glamorous parents would have these parties. And, and they'd be trying out the most forward technology for that moment, which might be the electric lamps or electricity in all its various different ways. So really, it was the desire to show off, I suppose, that pushed quite a lot of technology in various points. And you mentioned the National Trust, and I guess preservation and conservation is an important aspect of this. The big question, the big sort of controversy around Staley Hohens for the families that live in them is the idea that you might be the last member of the family to have ownership. And you don't want to be the one to give away the keys. And nevertheless, the National Trust, English Heritage, lots and lots of different companies do now take ownership under certain there's various rules that the family can stay living there, but they have to stand a specific area. They have to open it to the public and all these sorts of things. Which do you think is a more helpful way of keeping these places alive? The private ownership where the families, as intended, as it were, keep it using their own way to fix the roof or polish the brass or whatever. Or have the National Trust take it over and run it as an enterprise where the public can go to see it. Yeah, well, I think every house is a case by case basis. I think it is a really wonderful thing when a family who has lived in a house for hundreds of hundreds of years still lives in that house and can find a way to sustain it. The practical reality is that in these houses were built. with a great amount of land attached and that land through the rents supported the house. Generally, these houses today don't have that land. So they are incredibly expensive to maintain, to care for. It's very difficult to raise enough money to do that. So it's a real struggle for lots of families. And though I think it is wonderful to keep these stories alive and to keep the families are themselves part of the fabric of the house. My friend Darcy Weivall, his family, there's a picture or painting up in the house, it's a consumable burden haul up in New Yorkshire. And there's this lovely illustration of all the nights that went over with William the Conquest. And there's one shield, there were lots of shields all named underneath, one of the shields said, "Dewival." And so Darcy Weivall still thousands or a thousand years. That's amazing, yeah. Later. It's amazing because you see all the paintings, the portraits go back over these years. They look quite similar. You can see it all in them. But they also share names. You know, a Marma-Juke is one of the names of the family, keep being passed down. No, that's cool. It's just one of the kind of, it's just those lovely traditions, which is also I think a real part of the fabric of why a lot of the rest of the world see us as rather charming. They really like that. The Americans bought into it largely, probably because they saw it as that, you know, America is an ambitious, aspirational country. And if they wanted to sort of see themselves as these sort of operational and social society and stuff, they'd turn to Britain and married into it. Yeah, but yeah, so I think, you know, there is an advantage to, and it is really wonderful when there are these houses where the family still lives there. But practically, that's not always possible. So what is the solution? Well, there are various organisations who have come up with various different solutions. The National Trust is the one that most people have heard of. It was founded in 1895. And their model is they take on historic houses and landscapes, which are not supported, cannot be supported, sometimes in lieu of insurance tax. And they open them up to the public, so you might be able to go nine till five as a visitor. Now, this is wonderful because suddenly, all kinds of people can go and visit these houses which were once privately owned and behind closed doors. And they are cared for by conservators, you know, to look after all of these paintings is a huge, hugely expensive thing to do and also you need expertise. So there really is advantages to that. The disadvantage, perhaps you might say, is that it's very much kind of stuck in its time. Like, the story has come to an end if you like, because it's being preserved in that moment. You know, it's not going to develop in a way that a house country house might have done over the centuries. You know, it's not going to be the new technology that's been put in as they did in years past. But there are other options here. I mean, the another organisation is called historic houses, and they support privately owned houses and they will open them up to the public in various different ways. So you could get a tour with someone who actually lives in the house, which is cool. Or the landmark trust, which we've mentioned. And I think that's actually a really, really wonderful compromise again because, you know, a problem, perhaps with the national trust, is that when you go around, you're very passive. You know, these houses are used, they become museums, and they have a tourist route, which is, you know, has its advantages. But what's so amazing about the landmark trust is you go and stay in historic house for three days. It's your house. And so, you know, so you're waking up in this historic house, you're having dinner with your friends and family there. And it almost feels like they're still being lived in and shared in a different way. And you're playing your part in that by staying there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of them are great, these organisations, because by staying there or by visiting the national trust, by being a member of all these things, you are supporting their conservation. So, and I think it's good that we have a mix, you know, maybe it's good that they're not all privately owned, because otherwise nobody would ever, I mean, imagine if you could never go and visit unless you happen to notice someone who lived there. Yeah, that's true. That would be a shame. The numbers are good as well for these visiting, you know, whether it's private, national trusts, whatever it says, 20 million visitors a year. So, a lot of people. Yeah. And that supports tens of thousands of jobs. And it's a, it's a, well, over billions worth of revenue as well. So, it's hard. Well, it's not necessarily the biggest industry in the nation. It's not necessarily defunct. It's not redundant. It's, and frankly, I don't think enough effort is put into it to help promote it. And obviously, now that it's out on the luxury dispatch, people be flooding, flooding there in their drugs. This is going to be sponsored by the Lamar Trust, or something. And I'm encouraged by that, but I also do believe, I don't know, it's not necessarily your job to believe as a historian. It's your job to look at facts and just present those, you know, as they come to you. But as a Brit, culturally, I feel an association with it. In the same way that I feel an association with Tartan and bagpipes, despite not being Scottish. There's a, in some way, I feel like it is a part of me. And I'm proud of that. Absolutely. I mean, it's a cool part of the British brand. In the same way that Paris churches are, and that view of the cricket pitch and the pub and the church. There is a reason that fashion shoots will and TV and films, they always go to country houses and stay at home. Yes, it's true. And I think we take it for granted because we live here and we've grown up with it. But it's very striking when you go abroad, how much they associate, you know, and perhaps more excited by it than we are and associate it with the idea of Britain. So Alice, we haven't touched on landscaping. We've not really touched on architecture. I mean, really, we've not, we've done a lot, but they're not very much at all. We could probably do through a form of web says in this, but in the meantime, thank you so, so much for coming in. I think it was a totally fascinating conversation. And I think we've set our stall for rescuing these homes, indeed, they need rescuing at all. Well, thanks a lot for having me. It's been great fun. I remain Tom Chamberlain. And this has been the luxury dispatch, the podcast that looks at how luxury is shaped, not only by objects, but by the history, place and people who preserve both. My thanks to Alice Lockstone for guiding us through the world of stately homes and to swain for their support to the programme and for their continued commitment to the kind of craftsmanship that so often fills these historic spaces. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please do like, subscribe and leave a comment. We read everyone. Tell us the houses that have stayed with you, the histories you would like us to uncover, or the corners of the luxury world you think deserve attention. Thank you for listening and happy dressing.