‘Star Wars’ Announces Another Chapter of the Skywalker Saga. Plus, ‘Lioness’ Season 3 Finale With Van Lathan.

[MUSIC] >> I need support to have to clear the room. >> Stand up and walk now. >> Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me on the other line. He will conclude his hat ceremony at the end of this podcast. It's Andy Greenwald. >> Dude, I'm having flashbacks. >> This is how we started the podcast. >> I know, coming down in New York City, another guy in Los Angeles talking about TV and pop culture and it's another year we each got some different mayors, but it's okay. >> I'm happy where I am for that. >> Have you taken any free buses in New York City yet? >> I haven't, but I did consider buying a iHeartNY t-shirt for my daughter, but the heart is Zoraan's face and when I say for my daughter, I mean for myself. So it's in play, it's in play, but no, it's been quite a, what's the opposite of pleasant rough landing? >> Yeah, because I know it's out of the city 10 years ago and then I came just in time to get like a sick ass cold and have a sick ass norrister and I'm back, baby, I'm all grim and grumpy. >> Yeah, Andy's doing a little bit of work in New York City, but that doesn't mean that the watch misses a beat, right? >> Never. >> The dedication of his podcast, I really is dedication to the larger project of television as a lens through which we view modern life. It's like, it's like Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail, man, you just got to keep walking the invisible bridge. >> Wow. Yeah, that's how I felt this weekend, when I was looking for a way to cross flap bush without drenching myself. Yeah. >> I'm going to be joined by Van Lathen later where we talk extensively about the third season of Lions, including the last two episodes, which we hadn't gotten a chance to catch up on. Have you finished your Lions? >> Try not to look too excited about that segment. >> We did talk about a lot of stuff, a lot of topics, but I'm more excited than ever to talk to you because we have Star Wars news and we have an episode of lanterns that I really want to break down. The first thing I wanted to mention with the Star Wars stuff, Andy, is over the weekend and it broke that John Watts has signed on to direct the first film in what is rumored to be the next trilogy in the Skywalker saga. So Star Wars is just, they just can't quit those crazy Skywalker's. And Simon Kinberg has been working on this project since, I think, 2018. It is being reported that Daisy Ridley will return to play Ray. So obviously, John Watts has done work with the larger Disney Corporation before and his Spider-Man efforts. And Simon Kinberg has fingerprints on multiple superhero properties. This is interesting to me, but I was curious whether or not it was surprising to you. I mean, I think for me, it's always fascinating to see companies sort of decide we're not interested in bringing in Denis Villeneuve to do this. We are not interested in having Jeremy Sonye or Zach Kregger or Chloe Zhao or whoever. Like, it is becoming more of a studio system, more now than ever even before. What's your reaction to this news? For a business side of it, you know, there aren't that many safe hands in which to entrust something that is, let's be frank, quite compromise goods at this point. The larger Star Wars franchise has fallen into such disrepair that we have basically already agreed to memory hole Mandalorian and Grogoo that that was the first Star Wars movie in theaters in six years, seven years. So the absolute retrenchment to not only a place of, we are just going to go back to making trilogies. We are back in the Skywalker business, which I can say as someone who worked on what may have been the next movie at one point with lanterns, writers, producers Damon Lindelof and Justin Britt Gibson. That was not meant to be episode 10. That was one of the mandates. That was not what was going to be the next thing. So to have gone so far back to just like Skywalker's slop, but also the fact that they are so worried and so it is such an existential decision about will we ever get to do this again if we get this wrong? You understand why they went to one of the very few a list reliable producers of billion dollar grossing content. And I say that that's intended to be completely agnostic about the artistic and creative abilities of Simon Kinberg and John Watts who I think are both smart, thoughtful, talented guys. It's more that the talent pool they were looking at was clearly a lot smaller than we'd thought. And so this is in some ways where it inevitably was going to end up. I think that the most important thing in terms of the creative storytelling here is that they just don't do the same blueprint as the previous three sequels and the original three films. So the prequels aside, if they tell another torture young prodigy comes of age is thrown into a intergalactic battle between good and evil represented by a rebellion and an evil like an evil empire and blows up a big space station in the process, I just I think people will quit wholesale like midway through. I'm excited to tell you I don't think they're going to do that. Have you ever heard of a storyline that could be referred to as like a lone wolf and cuck? What if I were to tell you that there's kind of a special story? So Ray finds like a little kid and tutors him in the ways of the force. That would probably be number two in my least interested in Star Wars draft. But yeah, as a Disney story, I think it's notable that Sean, Sean Levy, who is the director of the next Star Wars film starfighter, which is coming out, I believe next year with Ryan Gosling has left Netflix for an overall Disney and is they are obviously whatever they learn from the Kathy Kennedy era of Lauren Miller on solo, then getting fired and Colin Trevorow and leaving and Abrams coming on for rise of Skywalker and everything that happened and even going back to Tony Gilberr taking over Rogue One, that chaos was the sort of norm there. Clearly what they want is a solid floor from which to work from. And yeah, yeah, I mean like are these films going to be nominated for best picture highly unlikely? Charitably. I think that is the the healthiest way to look at it that if you again, this is not my normal position to consider these issues. But if you were going to be sitting in Josh Demaro's chair, the era in which you quote unquote took the meeting. And we know that Kathy Kennedy took a wild, wild, sort of minute meetings from that some of which, you know, it got got closer to the altar than I think we even realized whether it was the Steven Soderberg Ben Solo movie or the meetings of the David Fincher that where I think a lot more substantive than had been previously reported in skill again. What do you have to show for that? I think you could make the pretty bottom line case that they have very little to show for it and a lot of, you know, a lot of waste of time and probably a lot of waste of development money. So they have decided they aren't going to do that. They have decided to say like we can do our best to future proof this franchise by hiring one guy to make another trilogy, which is what people expect from this and then here we go. Now, I will say as someone who once was, who has a recent experience, being someone who's like, you know, what we need here is a safe, steady pair of hands just to get us through this next transitional period that's your middle name or normal. That is why I was a big Joe Biden guy in 2020. And we all know how that turned out. So I'm just saying that, you know, what makes sense in the moment might not make sense long term. And then we can pivot to the fact that like I find the fact that they're going to make a skywalker story like really dispiriting because the inevitable drift back towards skywalkers has been not only diminishing returns, it's been outright putrid since when, since Luke showed up on Mando since that awful end to that next trilogy. You could even say that, you know, that George Lucas' trilogy, which has had a lot of like, you know, after the fact kind of rose color glasses on it. It's certainly not inspiring, but how many podcasts are we are we going to do? Well, we're like, we're not sure we're inspired by this latest business decision by the Walt Disney Corporation. There is no limit. How many do you want to do? Do you know, do you want me to start skipping Star Wars news? It definitely not. Look at us. We're cooking. Do you want to start talking about whether or not like Zoe Kazan has like their safest pair of hands for East of Eden? Like, I'm happy to do whatever you want. No, no. Let's talk about lanterns. Because this is the point. Wait, wait, hold on. This is you play into the middle again. I notice you haven't weighed in on your feelings about the John Watts Star Wars trilogy that is now in the offing. I did. I mean, I just, you, whether or not it's Skywalkers, it can't be the same Skywalker story. It can't be about someone being raised to be the Prince who was promised and saved the galaxy, if it can take anything, anything from the and or experience of there are so many different ways to skin this cat with all the respect to cats, like you can look at it from so many different ways and you can bring in so many different aspects of people's real lived experiences in their lives and like start talking about that. It doesn't always have to be the same story over and over again. They've shown in some ways, some discipline and not continually pumping out movies that are like basically fast and the furious 11 and you're just like, here's a hologram of Luke fighting with Yoda against like Palpatine who's died four times. You can, you can make a good Star Wars movie. You can make a good story, a Star Wars story. You just have to have the courage of your convictions, but it's hard to like evaluate it until I think the Skywalker stuff is nerve-racking, but it's like, we'll see the first time we get a long line, we'll know. Do all Star Wars projects have to inevitably be about Star Wars, about either remaking or undoing what just came before? Is it just locked forever in this like almost metatextual relationship with itself? Or as you said, Kenberg's been working on this for a number of years already. Did they give him time and space to crack the story that might be interesting in and of itself? That might be a worthwhile, riproading space adventure that is just not so completely self-referential that it drowns. I would hope that that's the case. The only other thing that I would note and I, you know, I like to be rigorous in terms of like my internet research because every time I, you know, Google Gemini something, I just know that that is exactly accurate. But I will say a big Gemini shout there from you. One of the, look, I'm getting alternate funding for this gem. Go ahead. Yeah. Gemini. I could never be. What should I think of this Kenberg trilogy, Gemini? I just want to say that I don't understand where this comes from and I can't imagine that it's genuine or not bot farming, but John Watts is not loved by the fandom community, which I don't understand where that came from. I do think it's hot. But is that like, I don't think that Destin Daniel Kretten is funding it. Like it's just bizarre that like concurrent with brand new day excitement and like Zendaya, Tom Holland, Mary Jane. I know. You'll see three that are like, John Watts should be in like, they should reopen Alcatraz for John Watts for what he did. He should be in cinema jail for a way that he's kept us from seeing in the moment we all love those movies. And so I don't really understand what that's about. But I'm very suspicious now of any wave of like, I'm getting so many slow horses edits right now. I mean, I just need to not be on any of these platforms, but so many of like accurate look at River, look at Sid 18 shots of like, and I'm like, who made this? Why is this on my feed? This person has no posts other than slow horses posts. Yeah. And you're just like, this is somewhere like a lonely PC running Gemini is just making the slow horses edits. I will say that a worrying amount of my daughter's YouTube consumption is fan edits. Yeah. Like that is a major plank of her media platform. The same way that like my father read the New Republic and the New Yorker. You know, she's like, here's some Zendaya edits for like a good hour of every night just to see how the other side is representing things. So we're clearly on the back foot of that one. Hey, before we go to lanterns, I was just curious, like, have you been like watching? Have you been keeping up slow horses? Have you been keeping up on youth? Like, are you are you avidly watching TV on this trip or just you're assigned reading? I've to I've been too busy to do much television watching that I am going to keep up with those shows because I really like them. Is slow horses is the third episode up yet? Have we or can we talk about at Thursday? We can talk about it on Thursday. Let's talk about them Thursday youth. I believe I missed the third episode last night, but I know you enjoy and I talked about it. So I don't want to be curious. I was just curious how that was more of a personal check in than it is a professional like. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was just like just I have to say if you want the truth, I have been I have found that the jet leg in general like work stress related insomnia has been alleviated by the second half of the second season of the paper. So maybe I was a little crazy to judge it because it has been a very it's like a very gentle kind of like I'm enjoying it just enough that I don't mind if I fall asleep, which is a genre of television that like I if Sam s mail solicin so this pod he just did the the merino like ripping his headphones off. I do think it's an important unrecognized genre. I feel that way about horror movies set on snow mount like snowy mountains. Like any horror in the snow right now. No, I'm like that just loves me right to sleep in a really beautiful way. I can't wait for your visit to the East Coast later. If the weather turns you're going to be prime picking lanterns episode seven written by Damon Lindelof and Tom King. I believe this one was called the Jordan boys legacy. The Jordan boys legacy and let's get right into it man. I thought this was a very well done episode of TV you basically can start with how flashback and Jordan family being as complicated as the steward family. We could talk about John Stewart true detective. I have a lot to say about Noah's offensive line and as do I that was my that was my first I texted you about that. I was so worked up. I was pretty close to breaking the seal on texting Damon and being like come on dog. There's no way this kid's going to Michigan with that line. I would just say that he would be he would spend most of the season in the fencing position yet those are the guys who are hurting him. The sort of prolonged what felt like a dream sequence but was in fact Anton's planet that Sinestro had been trapped on. So where would you like to start? This episode joins episode two for me as being the in some ways the best expression of what I think is the best outcome for lanterns which is be which is a really really successful and still surprising marriage between the shoe leather procedural good high elite television bones that exists in that writer's room and the absolutely holy shit mine fuck of yes in this storage locker in Nebraska is a portable hole into another dimensional planet like it it straddled that line so nimbly that it felt like it was working in a genre that has existed for many years when in fact it hasn't so for that reason I didn't feel like it was an episode that you know was sometimes at war with itself or with its own conceit as some of the previous ones have been. I don't know if that means this is like I'm not trying to lay down a marker and say this was the best episode of the season I just felt like it captured some of that unique magic that to me is the best path forward for a show that I am really enjoying. I think we're getting the payoff from some of the stretching that they do with the narrative and some of the pretzels that they bend themselves into in that writer's room to give us multiple timelines to do jumping around different people's POV from their childhoods to show backstories and show flashbacks and give us all these little slices of life because now the cumulative effect is it's really cool to have seen this many different John Stewart's in just seven hours of television and now that we have what I think is being affectionately described as the hologram who's basically a character on the show now it's cool to see Kyle Chandler get to do you know grumpy old man cocky young pilot nice version of himself you know and the same goes for Kelly Mcdonald you know this is a show that probably had a extinction level event a little early in its season you know with losing Garrett Dillon Hunt losing Paul Ben Victor losing a lot of like these kind of counterweights that the show had had to say nothing of Zoe and now it's kind of like Zoe or Azure no no and it wasn't even trying to it's just more I guess in the in the in the aftermath of that it really cleared out space for these two characters to push into fully developed lead roles rather than just chasing chasing mysteries I've never seen a show do this with how it uses the time that it has and we were joking a few weeks ago about that that concept of a surf Dracula and how all modern television shows have to tell the origin story of the thing that you think you're watching the television show for and that joke that that was just a joke tweet but it was in reference to the fact that oh no this is a show about John Stewart Green Lantern but he's not going to get the ring until the end of the season or season two as it turns out the real surf Dracula was the friends we made along the way no the real surf Dracula was the buddy cop dynamic between this Hal and this John that I think when we first heard the log line I thought we were getting from the beginning yeah I thought that the basis of the show was going to the premise of the show was going to rest on whatever chemistry could be created between Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler instead what they did and it's really surprising and I think maybe ultimately successful as they kind of revved the car backwards for a while so you could see tons of friction you could see it across time that it would take John Stewart a lot more growth to reach a place of acceptance and also wit and humor in life and the payoff frankly felt earned to me I mean I was thrilled that the way they were interacting and emoting and being more honest with each other and I was like well this is a dynamic that this can go like this has this has real range on it this show is gotten I think there's been a couple of moments I I was fairly confident that when Zoe guys zeroed out by that satellite that that was not the end of Zoe. And I was fairly confident when, you know, we first see how dead at the end of episode one that we were going to see a lot more how. But it's had a lot of fun extrapolating and doing yes and with its, with its hospital ball narratives that they throw where they're just like this may work or this may put a guy in the emergency room. And I guess my example from this episode would be that that dimensional portal that they find in a storage locker that you mentioned because you can really live or die on what's on the other side of that portal. And I was like, oh, that's where the money went. You know what I mean? Like that looks really cool. This is a very interesting idea for not only an alien world, but a fate of a people, you know, this idea that they were leaping off of this sky city because of the toxic gases that the man hunter had released there. And that those same gases were still present. We're affecting, we're affecting John. And the, you know, the imagery and the reappearance of John's father worked within the context of that story. That there was like some sort of hallucination going on. And what he, what he needed to do when he got to the other side of this, of this lake and got to, to Sinestro, I thought all of it really, really fit together really well. First off, that planet had big war, war, war mere vibes. You know, I don't know if you remember that's where the, I believe it was the soul stone was located where the red skull, you know, tempted it's Clinton Natasha, you know, it was some real, you know, I know that story line has meant a lot to you. I think the agents shield her outside of your door right now. I'm just saying, no, look like we've been overly crediting our friend Damon with some of the, the, the bolder ideas. And I, again, I have no idea who generated the way that this place would look or that this was Anton's home planet or that the city was in the sky and the orientation of the world is something that John didn't understand. But that is a pure comic book idea in the best way. That is a Grant Morrison idea that is a Tom King idea that is an all-youing idea that is a like, what can we do to be as big and bold as possible? And so that even the words that they're saying, you can laugh, they can laugh with themselves as they're saying them, you know, there's an Einstein Rosen, whatever that is sludge hole inside of this like, whatever. You're laughing with a giddiness of like childlike invention and discovery. And I loved it. And I loved the, I loved the way it was featured. I love those explained. And then, you know, again, it's, it's the not necessarily glamorous work in a TV show of how can we use this decision, this big bold decision as a vehicle for backstory, as a vehicle for emotional check-ins, you know. And so it's the crazy making gas that gives John visions and how saves him and his father's back. And it's like, it's the kind of thing where you can kind of hum along to the melody, even though the setting is so specific and so weird. And again, I don't mind that. I just think it's a really interesting collision of, of, of high-minded invention and kind of day-to-day practicality that when the show works, it just, it just works. Or as the guys at the jean store I was in yesterday said, it's Lantern Sunday. It's Lantern Sunday. And I was like, were they saying that knowing that that was your profession was to some, some of your profession was to talk about Lantern scene. You should, I, cool-aid man to out of the dressing room to be like, actually tonight's episode is pretty good guys. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let him know you saw it already. And what was the reaction? I just wanted to like, they were like, sir, those jeans are free. They were like, sir, please button the jeans before you emerge. Might I suggest a 31-way instead, those seem a little, yeah. No, but I, I, I, I, I was kind of into the fact that these are, these guys, I don't need to call them arbiters of cool. They were pretty cool dudes, but like, that it had, this show had reached some sort of like cultural velocity for them that they were looking forward to it. That's cool. Yeah. There's a couple of notes I want to hit here as terms of getting ready for the finale. But before we do, I do want to talk about the Noah hat selection scene. Thank you. Thank you. Um, either this is a grave oversight in casting and that, like, they were shooting it. Let's say, I think they had a California tax credit for this one, right? So they were shooting it here. Yes, they did. What were they like? These, these five guys who earlier in the day were like trying out for sterling point season two or something. But like, yeah, in a pinch, we can use them as Noah's offensive line. Noah would have 250 pound offensive lineman. If, if he is about that life, if he is the savior of Rushville, he is a farm country out of Nebraska. He's essentially Dylan Reola, you know, where like, he's, oh, actually, I think Dylan Reola wanted to go into school in Florida. Like, if he has stayed home to be this, this dude, he has got protectors. He has got bodyguards. He does not have three Jordan Catalanos looking to like, duck any smoke from posing D lines. Also, this is a team. Historically, that has occasionally faced aliens. Am I right? Like, like, there's been a lot of drama around this program, you know, over the years. Now, now, now hold on. Maybe that's interesting. Maybe his original, like, low center of gravity, you know, like, like, five Willie Lampkins in front of him. Maybe after the shenanigans a few years ago. Right. Oh, that's going to say, wait, so I'm pitching you something where they were in their 10th red shirt season. They're just like, we just got to protect them. Yes, basically, like, you know, given everybody of free, free pass. I think it doesn't count the more high school eligibility. Let's get rid of that jams another year. I just think it doesn't work like that. Like, they would, people would move to this town if he was the chosen one, right? To like, protect him and to ride in his co-tales and get a, get a D1 scholarship. It's also an interesting collection of schools that he's, he's musing over like, because I think it's navy, Michigan and Nebraska, but he does want to be the president, which he mentioned. I believe in his previous episode, which definitely tells me that he is a man hunter. Does navy have a lot of NIL money like in the Trump era? You literally go to the military schools. Yeah. No. Okay. I guess, yeah, actually, that's true. If it's 2026 and Trump's moving a lot of Bitcoin around, perhaps navy could get in the, I'm saying they could go get Camario from Mississippi State, but are there? You're watching, by the way, you're watching way too much college football on this weekend. It was on. It was on. How many great statesmen and presidents have emerged? Don't judge me for my eyes. Okay. Okay. Like, I don't, I don't like that. You've done it twice recently. And I, it's not judgment. It's not judgment. I'm just looking at you with, with, with wonder and a tinge of jealousy over your wide open skies. Like, you just have ability. You have time to watch these things and to get pretty familiar with some of the players. Wait, I had a question for you. Andy, you'll be like, do you see Willie Lampkin went to chilies on Wednesday night and ordered the like appetizer platter? Like, you know so much about. But do you know when I learned that? That's when I leave the writer's room and glance at my phone while walking to the bathroom. I can learn everything about what Willie Lampkin did that day at practice. I don't know what actually happens in the games. I wanted to ask you though, how many great statesman were, were hurricanes? Like, does the University of Miami traditionally offer a path to power? You know what you say that? But I do think, I do think one of, I think like, Ken Walsh or somebody, something was like a congressman. I don't know if I agreed with his political ideology. But, right, I guess in the sense of like, you know, important Senator Tommy Tuberville, I guess anybody can be anything. So, you know, I'm thinking back on some historic Keynes teams and I mean, it was a rich, rich fertile land for the people to be picking US senators. I mean, Clinton, Portis, Willis McGay, you know, yeah. Andre Johnson, like, plenty, plenty of guys, I would have loved to have saluted. You would have, you would have, you would have been a, you would have been a, a, a, a bundler. Yeah, I, I do think that is a massive oversight. And again, it's a sign that you're, you, you offer just your services to the wider Hollywood creative community years ago as just the sports consultant. Like, these are the guys in your pickup game in the prison scene in Mr. Robot. Like, let's, I've got notes. And so similarly, like, I just want to know what kind of offense they're running with these windmills in front of him. I think he's running spread. I think he's running spread because I, I think the idea is that Noah is, like, a kind of Jackson Dart, maybe a little bit more upstairs, but like, a Jackson Dart style. Yeah, because I think that, but I, but I think that runs counter to what he may be, Chris, which is a, a manhunter style QB, in which you just methodically locate the weakest link in the defense and pick on it, right? Isn't that what a manhunter does when he or she arrives in a town? Yeah. So it's like, it would basically be like, you know, locating who Adori Jackson was covering on last year's Eagles. You know, I mean, no disrespect. I'm just saying, how about I'm just trying to make it make sense? Send you off with some questions that need answers heading into the finale or or I hope that we have this answered when we get out of the finale who killed Hal Jordan Do you have a clubhouse favorite? Obviously, Halogram is worried about Carrie I Thought that was an interesting steer But probably because it became a plot point that was then walked back slightly with the suggestion that maybe The Halogram said that because he was avoiding what the darker Secret that might be underneath it, which is that it was suicide. I Think it's probably safe to say that those were red herrings If you're a theory about Noah being a mini-man hunter is right that it may have been him Yeah, that's in that's in the mix and maybe that's The echoes that Halogram was feeling from Carrie was like it's the right family. It's the wrong person Second question. Why was synestros stuck on Anton's planet? Who put him there and how do you get out of jail? I mean, I think that again that was the red skull on on Vermeer. You know, I I feel like you should rewatch I know endgame is in theaters now, so I feel like you could probably yeah in between this is a piece day and Florida games I went to endgame in theaters two times this weekend So we all choose to do the work that we have in front of us in our own way. I did I did see prime time this weekend I'm jealous of that but we're not talking about it because I don't want to spoil Okay, you can do it on the other parts of the podcast What I broke up a sex thing it all worked out And he got renewed. I am this is a question. I even don't want to speculate on because I love it Because I am just excited about the way the show has used synestro thus far as a supervillain But as someone haunting it maybe attempting to Machiavellian style Machiavellian style like control things, but I was also curious Is he just adult? Was he not looking could he not see through his beggars robes that he was Grabbing hell Jordan, you know because I think it that's That's his that's his son kind of so I Should know what's happened. That's the Jordan boys legacy. That's a distinctive musk Here is a question. I need an answer to because I need to see whether or not this was a pointless distraction or not What's up with this waitress and her blackmail And I should say survivor of Of the siege of rushville like but I Thought it was we were the john was just like yeah for sure. Let me go get you 300 grand and And then he gets the approval and get the voice note he gets it and I He's more liquid than I thought honestly. I think the reason why I just don't find like her being like I'll tell sheriff Kerry that you punched how Jordan knows to be like so what Like we've all done some things. I agree. See some things So I want to see where this leads because otherwise it feels like a kind of pointless red herring Can I ask you a question? What is the number because you and I are only children as we know so but in a way we are we are brothers to each other I'd like to think it's really nice. I call you from New York and say Listen Don't ask questions, but I need X amount of money wired to me Next 24 hours and his brother is just like I'll think about and hangs up on which is I think is a fair response But then he does come down on the side of okay. We're asking two different things. What is the number? I think john That's john's money. I apparently an fabulously successful architecture firm if they have 300K and liquidity to sitting around Are you asking if they're if they're 2026 is the same as ours. I think that there is a it is a boom time for panic basements Right, and so if your question is is there a watch slush fund that I can wire you money from the answer is no If the question is will I send you my personal wealth To to bail you out of some situation that you are not in a situation because I have a bad feeling that I would send you this money And then you'd be like posting pictures from the Delta one lounge, you know like I don't post the pictures, but I do send you Some live looks I would I would I would write I would cut the check. You know I would cut the check I appreciate that you're also famously liquid So I think that you'd be the guy I'd call I do question if that there's not a slush fund because all I know is I started working in New York and then kaya mailed me these just like crispy new microphones. I got a ringlight the size of Saturn in here Like I think we have more at our fingertips that I believe it's possible So we should we should investigate that are the manhunter's really extinct this kind of you know This has been a running Conversation over the course of the season is that Zoe was not the last one is how really dead like the how It it strikes me that it would be difficult to write Kyle Chandler off this show If they were going to do more seasons. Yeah, you know, no way I do think that it just as a Appreciation for what has been a really surprising and I think unique Journey of a first season of a show that as we've said many times had so many different mouths to feed I think it's worth appreciating that should the show return which I think it is likely to do It's likely to do certainly the characters will return in the larger gunverse and I think Aaron Pierre is Officially in the superman sequel Um, it's worth just noting that this might be our last go around with this flavor of lanterns. Yes Which isn't to say wouldn't be good going forward. It might retain the core cast And might retain the same sort of relationship to the larger DCU But I think you know the odds of this power trio running the show and Really wrestling with what it would mean to take the time to introduce characters in this way I think I I would be surprised if a second season even attempted to do that. Yeah, just because of the amount of firepower that they had in that room And then the connective tissue that will be required coming out of a superman sequel and whatever else is going to happen So I just a moment to appreciate what we got which is pretty remarkable I would say like it it isn't a really really strong place for a finale which even two weeks ago I don't know if I would have said because we were marveling over the fact that they basically ended the season already with the big rush Philens it in and restarted well, I want to end this segment with you because I want to let you get back to to work It was a great seeing you are are you going to stay up to watch the Eagles tonight? Yes, okay, my entire day is based around that. I'll eat lunch then Are you kidding and you'll eat dinner on the bones of case kingdom? Yeah And I'll eat dinner when next time I get to the Delta Lounge. Thanks to your largest Thanks Creamwald. I'll talk to you on Thursday. We'll do a little bit of a little bit of Slow horses and you know, hopefully you get to some beast of Eden pretty soon. That's coming out to a bigger show Thursday Thursday evening on Netflix great to see you man talk to you soon I'm joined by Van Lathen. We needed to do this even though we're a weekly On the lioness finale you're in Sweden so we couldn't we couldn't hook up and talk about the final op Dude What a season of TV and one that you and I have enjoyed together And we didn't want to leave people without getting in the cage one more time. If it's okay. If it's okay. If it's so if it's okay with Tracy We'll talk about do I want to do I don't want to do that right now. Okay. This is the watch isn't the big picture. We can say For the end we can talk college football and trace it. We were chopping it up. Yeah Would you think at the end of the season? I thought the finale was a tad bit underwater Okay, can you set the stage of where you watched it? Did you watch it like in the international travel or watching in Sweden? Okay, there was changes the experience totally sure Right. Yeah, you know, you're looking around in Sweden. Yeah, yeah, so you're watching also look so I watched it While I was traveling for the Spotify summit in Sweden's in a very nice hotel room until diplomat and Sweden nice and It was one of those situations where where you are removed from Your comfort zone, and you feel like you have no distractions When you're traveling no distractions. Yeah, everybody knows kind of not to call you on a different time zone It is you and the goddamn show so I was locked in to line as the finale and After the highs of this season which saw Joe in such harrowing situations It just kind of felt like they ran out of gas to me It felt like there was an idea of where it should end and that Taylor shared in the guy obviously created and wrote the series Was like I want this to tie together to the first season. Mm-hmm. I want to bring back some of the villains of the past seasons villains Is a relative term and I want to um Emphasize that the war has come home for Joe all the way back into her actual home where she's been There was an attended kidnapping or attempted murder a kidnapping and now her husband is left her right And then we get this finale where We find out that this guessing game that's been going on for the last couple of episodes of whose behind Joe's kidnapping Is finally fine at Celia from the first season and the daughter of the man that crews the original lioness of this series or I guess the second lioness takes out right And I'm use of what? Massive uses. Yes, and They had that and they were like, okay, like that's the idea that we want to end on But they did so much complicated shit in the beginning that like getting there was like if you watched the route the car took to get there It was it was so wild and I think that's embodied In what is both my favorite and least favorite moment of the entire season Martin Donovan who plays the cool kid. husband on the show and Caitlin's husband. Do we ever get his name? - I don't know. - I think we do because-- - Is it like Ellis or something like that? - Well, he says, well, you know what, when Kelly calls Michael Kelly's character, when he calls, he says, does he say let me speak to your husband or does he say the character's name? - In any case, it's Martin Donovan. - Right, Martin. - Who is very good at playing dudes like this, like kind of like shadowy executives. He was like this intent, you know, Joe has been rescued by this point, by crews and the crew in Texas. We'll get to that. And Martin Donovan does this thing where he's like, you know, you and me, Caitlin, we don't really ever cross a line in terms of sharing information and in terms of asking each other about each other's work. And Martin Donovan is an analyst of some kind who works for like probably a hedge fund, a data-driven hedge fund. - It seems like he's connected to the intelligence community or the State Department in a private sector capacity. - One that makes a lot of money, I think. - One that makes a lot of money, but also is privy to a lot of intel. - Yeah, and then he's like, so the State Department asked us to like, basically run an analysis of what just happened and figure out who did it. And the way that he tells her about this, it would be instant divorce. He obviously has like the conclusion that he has come to, which is that Ukraine is behind Joe's kidnapping. And he's like, who could have benefited? And she's just like, I don't know. Like maybe Afghanistan, maybe this, maybe that. And he's just like, who would have the way with all? And she's like, well, I don't know. Maybe Russia, maybe China, maybe Iran. He's like, but who would be able to activate agents? And he's like, tell her, you know the answer. - Right. - The CIA agent just got kidnapped on American soil. - Is there some, is he not supposed to say it like that? Is there some sort of conflict of interest? - He's not like, he's like, she came to the conclusion by himself. He says, we're gonna break the sort of barrier that we have between us where we don't share information. And he immediately puts himself into it. Here's the thing though. He's looking wrong. He's wrong. And there's never anything, there's no acknowledgement that the world's smartest man who sits there and it's just like the cataries are taking over our universities. But that's not what really scares me, AI scares me. This dude is wrong. It was Aliyah in a bathtub calling in favors with two phones. - Which by the way, Jo Doomar's style. - Somebody should have been able to peep that. Somebody should have been like, okay, who are all of Jo's enemies? - Yes. - There are left on the board from Ops gone by. - Dude, it's, she's the lioness. Who have the lioness has taken out? - Right. - Who are their family and friends who are still in action? - Right. - Do they have a lot of money and a grudge? - Right, but they're so smart, they're dumb. They go through this entire elaborate thing then gets our Ukrainian Bay killed. By the way, I gotta say something man. - Just say. - I gotta say, in this episode, as shots shared in TV is back, just straight. - I know, just like, such a long, her getting out of the shower. - Right. We just shared it's like, hey man, she's about to go, you're not gonna see her again. Before she goes, let me give you guys a little something. - Yeah. - Enjoy. - Okay. - As shot, Aliyah, as shot into the season. - No strip clubs in the season, right? - Exactly. - We're just as shot shared and give you the ass, right? Then she's out of here. That character dies when she legitimately was trying to protect her country. - And America. - And America, the entire failure of the intelligence community, summed up in the death of one character, but not only that, carnage in a random cafe place where African diplomats are killed, all because Joe is strung out on her greed. - And they're still giving her the playbook. - And they're still giving her your call. - You're Davis Webb. - She, it's okay. - She legitimately just came home from kidnapping. But she's like, you know what? Go for it, Joe. - Green light. - Right, do whatever you need. And she makes that wrong call, people die. This episode and all that stuff would have worked if it wouldn't have been so scatter shot. It just didn't seem like all of that connected to the grandiosity of the plot throughout the entire season. 'Cause remember, there was, who is the mole? Is there somebody giving information? - Yes. - Why do we know so much about the way Joe is moving around? The kidna, is it Iran, is it Ukraine, like we go to Cuba? We go down to Guantanamo, man. And when we go there, it's just luck that some guy sees Joe. - That day torture, like, bit not torture. I mean, torture earlier in the season, yeah. - Right, some guy sees Joe. It's like, hey, you black woman, Irish name. I'm like, what the fuck? So we get to the end of it and I like, I actually like the thread of next season being about her chicken coming home the rules. I think that's actually awesome, right? But it just seemed like more work should have been done throughout the season to get us here. So a fantastic season. This legitimately was the only episode where they missed. - Yeah, 'cause the penultimate episode, the one where they get her back, I put that shootout up against almost anything I've seen on TV in the last 10 years. Like, like, like up there, maybe not up there with like, the true detective season one shootout. But as far as like action set pieces go, in a non-genre, like non-fantasy, like, Game of Thrones last of us kind of way, that shootout in Texas was incredible. Like with the helicopter coming in and everything. - I see, I love that shootout. I still like the shootout from which season was it where Taylor shared, and once it came comes in, they crossed the border. - Nice to go. - On the second season. - Oh, right? - Oh, I can't, I feel like it was the second season as well, because that's when the Congresswoman that got in kidnapped. - Yes. - Right. - So those two are the crowning jewels, but all of that stuff, it was working in this season. And at the end, this almost seemed like a backdoor pilot for the next season of the show. Like, we're gonna tip you down. - Well, it was, so this has been like a huge thing the people have been talking about after the Emmys and a bunch of studies that have been like, people are losing interest in TV shows if they don't come back within a year of their final episode. - Right. - Like if you make people wait two, three years for stuff, there you'll have everyone's no alias of a severance that people are like, I'll wait 'cause I need to know everything. I need to find out what happened. But that what happens is most of the time is like even for something like Widow's Bay, which obviously just won a bunch of Emmys, I'm sure Apple gave a second season relatively early in the process, but not so early that Katie Dippell when she came and talked to us was like, I haven't started writing yet. Like when she talked to us after the finale, she was like, I have not started writing the second season yet. Taylor is like one of the only dudes out there who's kinda got like this, you can make as many seasons of this as you want, you know? And so he at least was able to make an authentic cliffhanger in the fourth, in this third season, which we usually don't get those kinds of things anymore. People feel the need to wrap everything up because they don't know if they're coming back. - This also was the season where the show became distinctly about Joe. Like this season is about her. Other seasons in the show, she is the eyes and ears by which we observe this world, but there's a new lioness. There's the rack tag group of people. There's a new enemy. This season is about her, and then it expands the show around her. She's kidnapped her family, all of the bodies she's laid, the red and her ledger. That is what this season is about. - I think it's also like a very big, Zoe Sardinia season because they could have told this story in a linear fashion where she gets the attempted kidnapping or the attempted assassination early, does all her shit, and then midway through the season gets kidnapped. And then she's basically off the board for the second half of the season 'cause she's getting moved around. And instead, they're like, no, let's tell in in these two timelines so that we can max out. Zoe Sardinia. And she's doing action shit, but she's also in danger. She's doing detective stuff, but she's also still like this mysterious kind of, like a rabbi to these lionesses and like showing them the way. So it's like a good use of her if perhaps a confusing way to tell a story. Hot button issues openly monologueed about, but not really disgusted or debated. This season include foreign, largely Chinese, Russian, and Katarii influence in the American university system and media. Corruption among the Ukrainian political class was a late breaking curveball from planets. The origins of COVID, China pushing disinformation to pit Americans against one another, the evils of AI and very, very, very briefly, a real world mention of America's invasion and toppling of the Venezuelan government. - Yeah, yeah. - You did the same thing with Venezuela was what the Russians sell us. - It's the Russian and Morgan Freeman's basically like two-shave. - Yeah, you go, hey, I shouldn't have done that. - It's interesting that like, what do you think of that collection of stories that they're talking about? Like it's not quite Fox News. - Right. And it's not quite. I don't know. It's not conspiracy theory. So can I give you the, the cynical read, the cynical read is obviously it's propaganda being pushed by the political worldview of the careers of the show. Yeah. But there's also another read and I stretch my brain to consider this read as well. That what they are trying to do is legitimately give us the mind frame of these people. Of these people who have to believe in the single virtue of America, American freedom and not just that, but American domination. So in order to put your life on the line for the country, you believe you're fighting for something bigger than you are and more important than you are. Right. But like not just American freedom, which is what she sells to her children. America first, not in the America first way that we see thrown around in political spheres now, but that the world is better, the greater hand that America has in it, right? In exceptionalism, perfect way to put it, better way to put it, the way that it is put. And in order to do that, you have to believe in the shadowy enemy everywhere else and in the fact that they hate us because they ate us. So every single country falls into that sort of designation. So everything you hear is number one, the things that America does and has done aren't really so bad in the context of the entire history of the world. They've been assassinations going back to Jesus Christ and all that. So every once in a while, there's assassinations, they're the first assassinations in the body. Right. Every once in a while, you got to take a mother fuck out. We didn't invent it. We just got to do the same thing that they did back in the day, right? And then the other side of it is our way of life that we've tried to export and change the world is under constant threat. And you watching this show, you get up and you go to work and you come home. But somewhere there's somebody who their entire job is watching the wall. Yeah, the few good men's speech. Right. Exactly. And that person has to take these threats seriously. Right. I think the reason why it's confusing, whatever you want to, whatever you want to describe, like the political and social and ideological viewpoints of the characters, because I think you're exactly right is that if you were going to do this job, you would have to look at the country as a thing worth defending, saving, promoting, believing in. So a lot of what they're talking about is that the things that are wrong with America are ceded by outside evil forces. Right. NGOs with shadowy financing, university students graduating and believing in socialism and communism, hysteria over a cold, which is kind of the attitude the show takes towards code. And getting involved in what they deem, not essential or non beneficial armed conflicts like the Ukrainian fight against Russia stuff like that, which is the genesis of Joe's entire strife in this season or so we think, right? She gets involved in that and it actually complicates something that she would be able to see. Think about that. The matically, if not for her getting involved in that op, she probably would have been able to see the actual problem coming for, which is her past, but because she got involved in that war that really has nothing to do with us, it complicated everything else, things that we should be able to see. And that to me is kind of like a microcosm of how people feel about the Ukraine situation. And I went back and rewatch bits of the first episode of this season and they're actually I mean, the Ukraine stuff is, is pretty, pretty well rendered. It's very, very good action stuff. And I forgot that she basically turns to cruise after they get the Russian general and she's like, what the fuck are we doing here? This isn't even our fight. And I'm like, this is where you're drawing the line? Like you've been going around hiring women to assassinate people all over the world. Like you think this is like this? And I guess it's kind of good because it illustrates just how almost futuristic the Ukrainian conflict has become, like drone warfare and everything like that. And in any case, there's something that happens with all these discussions of these topics where people usually say them and in most dramatic writing, there would be an opposition force. There would be somebody being like, I don't know about that. I think that you're wrong about that or here's what we have to, there's why I think there's something, something that you don't think. And in this show and this season, there's no pushback. Now we made jokes about this where somebody would be in the office and be like, what, what did this motherfucker just say? But it is kind of like either a flaw or an attribute. I can't decide what of his writing that people are like, they're just unchecked and it makes more room for their like new, like their detailed rundown of how the Qataris have ruined Princeton. Right. Yeah. Exactly. You know what? A lot of people ask that know my politics, like how I can visualize this and the answer is very simple is because I believe in my politics. I like actually believing them. Sure. So them being challenged does not bother me at all. As a matter of fact, other people's perspectives on them don't bother me at all. The only thing that bothers me is when people lie about what it is that they're doing. This show is truthful in what it is trying to do. Now a lot of that stuff is bullshit that I don't agree with. But the reality is I share my community with a bunch of people who do believe that. So I'm pretty confident in the way that I view the world. Therefore this show like doesn't really bother me. I mean, before, you know, I'll go watch it, it vendors in game where a billionaire saves the universe, right? Like we're a billionaire guy who's a smart guy with a bunch of money, saves the entire universe. He's an arms dealer. He's an arms dealer. He saves not just this world, but he saves trillions of lives, right? He's talking about, you know, propaganda. So like none of this stuff really bothers me that much, especially if they're real about it. And this show is, this show is honest about what it is and who it's catering to and something else. There's enough of a human dynamic here, like at play around this stuff. Like when Nicole Kidman and her husband are going back and forth, the thing that I think about more, even more, even then should I say, the information is what must that marriage be like? And these people who are connected to Joe, they call her boss this maternal fucking connection that they have to her throughout the entire season. They were really going through it when they thought they would never see her again. And all of that human stuff is really well done in the show. All of the connections, the little, do we like Kyle? Is Kyle a hero? Is Kyle? That's a really good character. All of that stuff. Do you want to see their Kyle and Africa spin off? Definitely. I definitely want to see the Kyle and Africa spin off. It almost seemed like they were sending it up. They kind of did. Yeah. When Michael Kelly was just like, you know what's going to happen now? We have to go intervene in Molly. You're going to go. I was like, yes, I, I think that there is also something unique about this series, whether or not it's entirely intentional or not, which is that a lot of moments get no sold. For people who don't know, that's like a, it's like a term when like, if Van is like, I have an incredible idea theory about Star Wars and I just like, I'm like, cool. And then I just move on to the next topic. Which is the worst thing you can do in a tandem performance, interestingly, if you know sell something, yes, they'll actually kick you in your fucking face because you're supposed to sell somebody else to make somebody else, but there are a lot of moments to get tossed out. For instance, like late breaking in this season, I think Cruz becomes kind of like fixated on being the one to save Joe because she is like this person made me who I am and I actually like who I am now. And so much so that she does multiple solo prayers begging for the opportunity to be the one who gets to assassinate the people who've taken Joe, right? That's really just like moved past, you know, like obviously when she rescues Joe and Joe's like, I owe you now and Cruz is like, you don't owe me anything. What can I tell you something? The end of the show made that stuff make more sense to me because Cruz is going to be in the jackpot. It was Cruz's op to get Alia. Yeah. And not only the op, they were popping the shit out of each other. So that's like an example of something where it's like, oh, that's cool. Like you can then read into the super story, like the macro stuff. The stuff that gets kind of no salt is when they murder or a Ukrainian woman who's done nothing but help the United States. And then just like goddamn, I wish I had that info as if we didn't realize that they killed her because they come back to the meeting room and Joe is like, what happened? Everybody else was like, ah, shit. She knew too much. Yeah. You fucking. She knew too much. And she's like, they look good fellas. They can't make an omelette without, you know, and so we know that, right? And that's like, oh, shit. That sucks. We like that character. Then we have to see her dead body as wringled the dog. Finds her. And I'm like, okay, man, now they're really letting us know the cost of existing inside of this world. I'm not so sure they got there with that character. What that actually did, which is another thing that I have to give the show credit for because everyone in this world extolls the virtue of who they are and what they are doing. It's how they're like, they were corrupts like, they're wrong and they murder an innocent person. Which is what Morgan Freeman says to Michael Kelly. He's like, don't. I don't ever think it's anything but murder. - Right. - Like you can tell yourself whatever you want about military action in this or that, but it's murder. - So these super powerful people murder somebody with their incompetence, which is another thing that the show kind of does every once in a while that lets you know that despite all of the political packaging of the show, there still are consequences to existing inside of this world. So season four will be, I mean, this happens in action movies especially where the villain has an opportunity to get their revenge, but they want their revenge in the exact circumstances that they want it, that they've imagined. Alia has like 150 opportunity to kill Joe. - Yeah. - But she wants the entire lionist team. - She wants to get them all. - To come to her. - Yeah. I don't know how she's gonna do that. Now that she's done the kidnapping bit, but it will be interesting to see like, I'm sure he has like an ending in mind. I bet this is gonna be the last season. It would line up with when he's leaving for peacock and Taylor leaves for universal. But this is such a weird show that I like, I can't, I'll never stop watching this. - We're getting robbed of the entire lionist universe, which I would love to see, right? - But as somebody who's gone through the like, Taylor shows not written by Taylor, it just doesn't hit the same. - Okay. Well, I get it. Oh, 'cause I haven't tried like, you know, some martial arts and- - There's like martial arts. - He wrote Yellowstone for the whole thing that somebody else is writing Dutton. Yeah. - So she wants to kidnap a senior CIA case officer, not just a senior CIA case officer, but one that knows where all of the bodies are buried, that the American government will go through incredible links to get back and she's gonna keep trying. The question for the next season is, number one, is she gonna get the opportunity to kidnap Joe, which you almost think that she would have to for this to make sense, right? Joe's gonna, is Joe gonna hit the bottle? Like her family's gone, what's Joe's gonna be into? Is Joe gonna hit the bottle? 'Cause her family's gone, she's by herself. She's got fucking- - She starts hitting yellow, a little hard. - Crazy, people are like, Joe, you're spiraling. You don't fucking know what I'd be doing. - Died body and sideways style. - Exactly. - She's drinking and she's pouring the bottle on her rancid toe with a whole fucking- - She's only got nine toes now. - Right, yeah, and I'm telling you right there. Is Alia from the first season a compelling enough villain? Like that one singular thing. That's not what the show is about. The show is about layers upon layers upon layers of political espionage. - Yeah, I thought that the idea that like basically there's a black market for like ops and that you can go out and hire Belirussens and Iranians and all these people to do your dirty work. That was a pretty cool world to go into. - Okay. - A pretty interesting world to go into. I don't know if Alia is the one that I've been like, that's the Joker. That's the person I wanna get to eventually. There was one more thing I wanted to ask you about this. - Was it about the butt shot of Alia? - No. - 'Cause we could talk about that. We're gonna do a separate part. - About butt shots and lioness. - That ass shots and all of them by the way. 'Cause it's not just a lot of guys. - A lot of guys. - This is the ass shots show of our time. I really can't get like there've been some phenomenal. He loves the ass shot. - He really does. I was just trying to think of like if he does this in a lot of his series, but he loves to get people naked. Do you know another thing he loves? And I wanted this is what I was gonna ask you. - What? - 42% of this show I did in the math. Takes place on tar max. - Airport shit. - I've never seen a guy who loves fucking flying private more than Taylor shared it. There's nothing that gets him off more than a private jet rolling up and then just being like, yeah, wheels up. - Wheels up. - Let's go. - I'll let you know where we're going when we get there. - Not just that, but the jet rules. - Yeah. - Like this is the altitude you have to fly at to be under radar. - How much fuel are you carrying? - Yeah. - I'm jumping off points, like we gotta get the fucking Mexico 'cause when we get the Mexico, it's fucking done. - Yeah. - We can't be seen anymore. - There was really funny when they were like, then they're in international air space and you know, they're gone and it's like, I don't know. You guys go into like international spots all the time and it's happening. People just blow the plane out of the sky. - You went to the Ukraine. - Do you think, 'cause he shoots a lot of this stuff in Texas like on his ranch now, do you think that Taylor has his own airport on that ranch? - I don't know. - And all of that stuff is shot like at his spot. - Oh, it could be. - 'Cause the airport in Cuba and the airport in Baltimore and the airport in Mexico are the same airport. - The same airport, yeah. I mean, it could be. I like the fact that he uses his own shit. Like he like, I- - I definitely think that Ukraine is Texas, but with like a Ukraine filter on the camera. - My question is probably all that the big rancher gets. My question is, what would be your version of this? If there was a CR show, and the show was essentially about some other shit, but really wrapped up in all of your interests. - My passions? - Your passions. 'Cause his passions are guns and horses and asses and airplanes and lesbians. Those are the things that he loves. - So this is the reason I like the show so much is I can't think of any other passions. (laughing) - Maybe that's what we're getting to is this deep psychological profile that I didn't know existed for myself. - I don't know, like nobody wants to watch TV show about use bookstores and being bad at golf. - Yeah, you know? - Pick up basketball show. Nobody knows that, you know who? - Anything else before I let you go? You got her a learner, and you're back, and you jet lag, and you did the show with me and I appreciate it. - I'm fine, man, like I'm good. Like I tell you, I have to say this once again, we have to go. - Oh, you wanna do a little bit of behind the scenes? Well, it's so good. - I mean, look, we're talking about Lioness, and it seems as if Tracy Litz doesn't like that idea, man. She doesn't like the idea of us talking about, did you see that? - I think it's fine with us talking about it. I just think, I don't think he's interested in joining us in any kind of capacity. - So you didn't feel a play about what you said on the big picture? - I had reached out on all of Branch last time, I think when I was on Midnight Boys, I think I posited an idea of like why, why are us three guys fighting for scraps in the third chair, like why don't we think about making something, owning something, being part of something together, three chairs. - Right. - And Tracy said that's a loser shit, and that sounds like the idea of a loser and the philosophy of a loser and that you and I, I believe you compared us to Pat Buchanan and Lyndon LaRouche, failed politicians to say nothing to say the least. - You said that we were chopping it up. - Yeah. - We were chopping it up about Lioness. - I mean, cool. He's off my Christmas card list. - You know what I mean? (laughing) - I'll be honest with you, I don't like that shit. I'm like, I'm gonna be all the way real. It was funny, 'cause like, you know, let me keep it all the way real with the audience. Let me keep it all the way real with the audience. I realize that the big picture is like the Bushwood Country Club of the Ring. I do, I get it. I am the Rodney Dangerfield. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They are the Bushwood Country Club of the Ring. Loveable people that we love to talk movies with, but I know that the audience over there is not thrilled to see me on the podcast. - Okay. - Right? Now, I go in there to rabble rouse and to rough shit up. And what we have in common with each other's movie was good. - And say, guess what? The flash fucking ripped. - Did you do that? - No, I did it on Midnight Boys. This was one of my great regrets. Anyway, it did not rip. But now it's caught up in the moment. They put Christopher even in the movie. Anyway, so look, so I get that. I understand that. And that's like an unspoken deal that I have with the fans of the big picture. You know, they notice. - Sure. - So we have in common. Everybody knows what they're in. - Everybody knows. - They know that I'm there to rough up and be the rabble rouse about comic book movies, but we all love movies. We love Sean. We love Amanda, okay? That's the fucking deal. So when I said that I wanted to be third chair, that was really for them. - It was facetious. - It was to get them going. Let's, it's holding on a little too tight. I gotta be honest with you bro. Let's just hold them on a little bit too tight bro. - Do you know what it is? - I just think that's a dude who I love. I really do love him. In the short time that I've known him. And I just think his banter comes from another generation. - That's the thing. - He's like, I'm like you're, that's a, you're hitting a little close to the kidneys, Tracy. - That's the thing. The thing is, you know, he doing something you're not supposed to do. (laughing) You're not supposed to fall in love with your side bitch. You're not. The big picture is Tracy lets his side cheek. That's a two-time punter. (laughing) That's his side cheek. You're not supposed to fall in love with your side cheek. Even if she makes you feel young again. - I think this just speaks to the allure of podcasting and Sean and Amanda creating such a warm, hospitable home for so many of us. - When he called me Lincoln LaRouche and I felt like Kevin Hart in the 40 year old version. Like, I don't understand the words. - Just come out of your mouth. But I'ma take him as disrespects. You know what I'm saying? I'ma take him as disrespects. I'ma, what the fuck you talking it up? Grandpa of you. Did you guys know about LaRouche? - I knew who that was. I was just saying like, I looked at that and I'm like, "Hey man, look, now we gotta do the thing where we really start to kinda get at each other a little bit." Don't play with me, Tracy. Like sitting down there talking with Sean. Look, it's all love. - It is. - But don't fall in love with your side cheek grandpa. Don't do that. - Don't do that. - Where would you rank the watches, your side cheeks? - What'd you mean? Like in your, in your, I think, I think you are a man who is so ever present on so many pots. I don't really understand the romantic hierarchy of your podcast. Oh, but see, that's the thing though. If you don't fall in love with it, you can treat them all the same. See, I see. Like for me, I'm a part, for better or for worse, whether you like it or not, I'm a part of the ringer podcast family, baby. There we go. So I'm a, they're just doing it, doing it to get, oh, predator. So I'm going to be around having fun with my brother, like predator. Exactly. Exactly the same thing predator after they both had atrophy, like I'm having fun with my bros, man. Like I don't want to be third share. I don't want to be third share. There's no such thing really as a third share. We're all just hanging out podcast. Uh-huh. Don't get over your skis though. Okay. Don't. Don't do too much. This is your oftenheimer mode. Yeah. Don't what have I done? Because you really ramped it up when you threw your hat in the ring. It was, yeah, it was like, yeah, it was, we were having fun, but like, you know, man, it's like, you're talking to, oh my God, thank you for coming to him. No problem. Love it. Lion asked, what are we going to click up again to do? East of Eden. I don't know what you're talking about. I'll talk to you soon. Heartbeat.