‘Star City’ Season Finale With Creators Ben Nedivi and Matt Wolpert. Plus, Emmy Nominations!

I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now! Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. After all these years, I still retain no official title at the ringer. And I'm here by myself. Our good friend, the man the legend Chris Ryan is continuing his listening tour of America. I'm sorry. What's that? Chris has actually left the country. Very interesting. Wow, middle America CR has tread north of the border. He claims to do a live podcast with some other showies involved with the. Okay. What's it called? The big. The small screen? It's called Movies Now, with Sean Fese and Amanda Dobbins. So I hope there having a good time up there. I do just want people to remember, Kami Chris might not be as pure as some of the voters believe him to be. No, we miss Chris. It's a summer of a lot of travel. He will be back on Monday when I will be traveling, not for political purposes. And we will be back together next week. Special Friday show for you today. And before I forget, you can and should email us at [email protected] or check us out on the watch pod underscore on Instagram where Kai is just continuing to do incredible work highlighting me and my popular opinions. So Friday show for a very good reason. Star City on Apple TV, you've probably heard us talking about it week after week. I don't know how many of you have taken the plunge or in this case, gotten on the orbiter into space. But on today's show, Ben the DV and Matt Wulpert, the co-creators, co-show runners of Star City, as well as the sister show for all mankind, join me, great conversation, great guys. But I really just want to take this moment to implore you again, whatever cred we've built up with you guys, we're willing to spend some real rubles on this one. This show is dazzling. And if you are someone who started to check it out, who was maybe a little bit worried about the Soviet era wallpaper period piece, the slow burn of the first few episodes, I can confirm that today's season finale is jaw dropping in all of the best ways. It hits all your familiar TV feels and it does things that I've never seen on screen. And I loved it. So really excited to talk to them. It is a not super spoilery conversation, a lot of interesting stuff about just production these days and making television in Lithuania, which is where we're all headed if we're lucky. But if you haven't had time to check out the show yet, please do. All episodes are now streaming on Apple. The other reason why I'm eager to talk to you guys today is the Emmy nominations we're released yesterday and it is a special and magical time of year. And as always, the caveat being the Emmys are never going to reflect everyone's personal taste. We will get into some specific snubs that I think a lot of people around town are feeling. But they are a really interesting snapshot of how the industry views itself and what is being celebrated and what is being ignored. So I do want to get into a little bit of that and the main headline for me, and we'll get into some of the subheads, but the main headline for me is, I mean, this is a podcast about StarCity, the Apple Corporation, that plucky startup from Cupertino has forced itself really into the mainstream television conversation. Now, caveat's abound. Apple is the richest company on earth, I believe, still. So they can force themselves into any conversation that they want to. They're not playing by the same rules as a lot of the other networks are in terms of what they decide to fund and what they don't decide to fund. The other thing worth noting is that, and this is shocking to me, I just actually learned this today, Apple's shows of which we love many of them. We discuss them about to get into them. Apple's shows do not qualify for Nielsen's streaming ratings, because you have to have one percent of the television audience to qualify. That's actually what we're talking about in terms of niche programming. I believe they're at like 0.8 of a percent currently. So it is a very, very, very small piece of what is still a pretty diffuse pie. But the shows they are making are registering among some viewers, listeners of this podcast, and clearly, clearly with Emmy voters. So while HBO Max had a typically huge showing with 122 nominations total, and Netflix was second with 111, and I think some people thought that Netflix might overtake HBO this year, particularly if the final season of Stranger Things caught any kind of fire. Listener, it did not, but the real shocker here is that Apple got 89 nominations, and it's not just that it got 89 nominations. It's not like it just cleaned up in the like the secondary tertiary categories. Your best drama listeners, your best drama nominations for 2026 are the diplomat on Netflix, the gilded age on HBO Max, night of the seven kingdoms on HBO Max, and by the way, we're not going to quibble over category fraud here. Night of the seven kingdoms was dramatic, even though it was also quite funny and 30 minutes long. It was submitted as a drama. This unhulu, which lol, but like a good lol, the pit, the reigning champ on HBO Max, and then pleuribus, Apple TV, slow horses, Apple TV, and fucking your friends and neighbors on Apple TV, which honestly respect. I know in like a lot of the people who work on that show, and I'm sorry that I'm not joining you on the second and soon to be third season, but wow, that drew some eyeballs, especially because what often happens with, I don't want to say fringier shows because it's a pretty mainstream and well promoted show, but I never had the sense that it had crossed over into as much of a mainstream conversation as to warrant a nomination like this. Usually what happens is the most identifiable part of the show. In this case, Emmy winner John Hamm will get nominated, while the show itself might not get nominated for a few years. Weirdly, this is your friends and neighbors only Emmy nomination. John Hamm was not nominated, but I think that speaks to the outsized role that Apple is playing behind the scenes here. Now, I'm not saying it's like old-school golden globe stuff. I'm not saying it's payola, but Apple is definitely paying. They are paying a premium for really, really highly regarded content. They are making deals with big stars as they have since the beginning. They are optioning hot properties, but I think the more subtle thing that they're doing that is pretty impressive is they definitely are meeting audiences where they are and not putting up too much that demands a lot of adventure. Now, it's big enough of a service at this point to make that comment while also covering star city, which as I said, is a very, very niche kind of show and hopefully we'll be finding an audience. But I think it's not just the success of your friends and neighbors. Margot's got money troubles, which was submitted, which we thought was sort of like a literary adaptation mini-series, limited series, and is actually submitting and getting nominated as an ongoing comedy series. Apple is here and Apple is not going anywhere unless Tim Cook decides to make cars instead and then it'll all go away, but I don't think that's going to happen. Specific numbers for shows, the pit leads all nominees with 25. Any single person you've ever seen on the pit was probably nominated. It's probably a safer bet. Special shout out to what are their names? Brittany Allen, who played the cancer mom and Jeff Cobra, who played Duke, the motorcycle guy with a heart of gold and lungs full of, I don't know, tumors. They were great on the season and interestingly, they had to self-submit and still got a nomination. What that means is even giant, well-funded, Emmy productions like the pit and with HBO behind them, there's a decision as to who they are going to submit for each category. This actor or this actor, and particularly when it comes to guest slots, they had to pick and choose. I think institutionally they put up the actor who played Louis and he was rewarded with nomination, but Brittany Allen and Jeff Cobra had to nominate themselves and it worked, which is great for them and also a sign of the, at this point, truly unique, monocultural dominance of the pit. I know I brought up Nielsen earlier, I don't know what to make of any of those numbers generally. The pit is the biggest show on TV, I would say. From the perspective of the way we talk about TV on this pot, it's the one that everyone has an opinion about everyone watches and it's kind of steering the larger cultural project of the medium at this moment. 25 for the pit, 24 for Hacks, a show that is nominated for comedy. The bear was not. This was the final season, the Emmys have loved this show so fiercely and so dearly I worry about how the Emmys are going to do without it and the Emmys, the only thing the Emmys love more than Hacks is honoring a final season of the show. So 24 for Hacks, really creating the possibility that between these nominations and the surprising number of nominations for DTF St. Louis, that HBO could score the rare treble. That's a term I made up. For when a network wins, the big ones, drama, comedy, and limited. FX made a big play for that a few years ago when they moved Shogun into the drama category and they won for drama and comedy with the bear. And I think that was the year when flashments and trouble was up for limited and they didn't win. Pulling for the treble for somebody. Couple other nice things that happened. The nicest being a little show called Widow's Bay, cleaning up 19 nominations. And I think that if you had pulled anyone a week ago, this wouldn't have been a surprise, but if you had pulled anyone two months ago, everyone would have said, "Widow's what?" It's an incredible story. Obviously we love the show here. It's, I think it's still my favorite show of the year. We had creator Katie Dippold on the show along with director here on Mariahe and both of them are nominated. And sometimes it just feels good when something takes over the popular imagination. It takes over the industry. It has a huge approval rating from everyone and then you get that kind of cascading effect of nominations. So it's not just that obviously Matthew Reese was nominated, but all your favorite characters, Wick, Patricia, all nominated, but also Dale Dickie who plays Rosemary, nominated Betty Gilpin and Hamish Linklater, nominated for Guesting on the episode. And here's the crazy thing. Season one of Widow's Bay was so not on the Emmy radar for Apple that its first season spanned the eligibility window, which correct me if I'm wrong and I told you the email address at the top. I believe episodes from season one later in the season can be nominated for next year's Emmys because I don't know the production schedule, but there's a chance that I would say a good chance considering it's July that the second season of Widow's Bay will not be on the air by May. So I imagine that's not totally unprecedented, but it's still pretty cool and pretty wild to see. Matthew Reese, by the way, a rare double nominee also nominated for the Beast and Me. And happy home in Brooklyn because Carrie Russell was nominated for the diplomat. We love it when nice people succeed. Couple other things that was nice to see. Yeah, I have dual-moutine nominated for Wonder Man, best actor in a comedy. Very, very high bar to climb, I think, for Marvel shows to get Emmy recognition. Juan Division was the last to get any. Some would argue the last to deserve any. But Wonder Man really, really was a good show. And I do think it probably got a little extra bump because just like with the Oscars, over-rewarding movies about movies, Wonder Man is about the entertainment industry. And how hard it is right now, even if you don't have superpowers, I'm wrong, by the way. The bear was nominated for a comedy series this year, but a lot of the actors were not nominated. And this is for season four, meaning we have to do this whole thing again next year. Iowa Debris was the only actor nominated. I think Jamie Lee Curtis and the late Rob Reiner nominated for guest. Here are your comedy nominees. Abbott Elementary, funny show, the bear, that's funny. Hex, okay, Margot's got money, struggles, sure. Nobody wants this, only murders in the building, shrinking and widow's Bay, which I think sort of has to be the favorite at this moment. The only snub that I would put there, take out the one you like least, and the rise and fall of Reggie Dinkins on NBC really deserved some love there. It's probably the funniest show on TV and the whole season is streaming on Peacock. Okay, a couple other snub's task was nominated in some categories. Actors were recognized, Mark Ruffalo, not nominated for drama series. Does beg the question if it would have fared better if it had been submitted as a limited, but as season two is currently in production in my beloved hometown of Philadelphia, not eligible. I do wonder if task will build more institutional support in its second season, partly because as was announced today, Friday. We're in a shared universe, people. I mean, I'm from this area, so I know that things get really messy and incestuous, but officially, task is in the mayor of Easttown Universe. Julian Nicholson will be appearing in season two of task, playing the same character she played in mayor. Who else could be showing up in the future? I don't know, maybe Gritty. Other snubs, the big one in this room among the young people I work with industry. I still, saying this as obviously a day one fan of the show, worried that it was abridged too far, mainly because we're talking about a voting body that really likes your friends and neighbors. No disrespect to them, but your friends and neighbors, like I was saying before and Margot's got money troubles, meet the audience where they are. And I do think the majority of the Emmy voters are not going out all night with a bag of gear and like a classic train spotting soundtrack. Wait, sorry, that's my dream. I don't think people are going out in London the way that the characters are. And so it doesn't mean the door is closed. There's one more season. As I was saying before, like Emmys love a finale story, but I just think the groundswell of support that industry felt this year critically and certainly institutionally. I don't know how hard HBO pushed them for Emmys in the past. I think that's something to build on and I would not be surprised to see like Marisa Bella or Mahalla nominated or Kid Harrington nominated next year for the final season. If I could be mayor of Hollywood, I would have liked to have seen some love for the lowdown. The great FX show with Ethan Hawke from the brilliant Sterling Harjo, but again, like that's the kind of show where when you see these snubs list, I'm like, I just didn't really imagine a world where that was getting the popular support within the voting academy, but it is worth noting. I was really happy to see beef season two nominated so heavily. I know the second season was contentious to some, even people who love the first season, but I think I like the second season more and acting nominations for Carrie Mulligan and Charles Melton, especially, you're super deserved. It's a bad luck for Kaley Spani, who maybe got forced out of a tougher category. The one nomination that I wish I could make happen in the acting categories. I mean, obviously Tim Simons hitmaker, like you can't make nobody wants this without him, but the other one would be Anthony Star for his five years as a home lander on the boys. The boys did have an Emmy moment, shockingly it was nominated for Best Drama Series a few years ago, and I think whatever cultural momentum it had then may have stalled a bit by the time the last season came out, but his performance was unbelievable, and he remains one of the more underrated actors on TV, and I'm excited to see what he does next. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, really good, thought maybe you would get some acting nominations. It didn't, but the great Dan Romer, who did a beautiful job on the score of that show, did get nominated, that was cool to see. I honestly, like, for all of the praise and the sort of dark arts that are attributed to HBO head case employees for getting into the conversation and racking up these Emmy nominations every year, the fact that he got this many Emmy nominations for DTF St. Louis creator Stephen Conrad. It's a fucking magic trick worthy of Hogwarts, which is eligible next year, by the way. So kudos to everybody. The Emmy's are a fun party. I wouldn't read too much into them, but it is a fun party, and it's always better to celebrate the things they get right. I didn't even mention 18 nominations for Pleuribus, very hard to do as a new show on a network that has 0.8% of television landscape, better to focus on the good things than the disappointing things because they're always gonna be more of those defined. So there you go. We are gonna get into my conversation with Ben and Matt from Star City, and I would just say again, do yourself a favor and watch the show, particularly if you're finding that some of your other faves are going off the air for the summer or you haven't found a next thing to watch. It's really excellent. And I was hoping we could do something dramatic like announce the season two pickup here on this podcast, but much like Soviet state controlled media, Apple keeps this stuff tight close to its vest. I don't actually know, but maybe that's empowering, guys, 'cause maybe that means you can turn off this podcast, just kidding, keep it playing in the background for the rotations, for the spins. What do we call 'em plays and watch Star City? 'Cause you actually could affect the show's future, and doesn't that feel good? Doesn't it feel good to have an interactive empowering moment? Thank you to Kaya and Kaya for getting me through this. And we will be back, well, Chris will be back on Monday, and I'm sure he will have some honestly provocative things to say about socialist life north of the border. And I'll be back to talk to you guys next week, so please enjoy my interview with Matt and Ben, not that Matt and Ben, the Matt and Ben, that makes Star City. I am so thrilled to be joined in studio now by Ben the D.V. and Matt Walpert. You say the T, it's not a silent T. The co-creators and co-showrunners of the Brilliant Apple TV series Star City, which we are talking about, having just concluded the first season. Guys, welcome, welcome to the watch. Thanks so much, really happy to be here. I, we were just discussing the fact that we briefly met each other 10 years ago, and then you were on probation for a decade. Until, until you made the show. And now here we are, so thank you. Yeah, came out of hibernation just for this. I'm really glad we get to talk about the season and it's entirety. The finale is, I believe, per my notes, so sick. But I want to specifically get into how you pulled this feet off. The eye of this needle couldn't be finer to thread. It's a spin-off of an already pretty dense, kind of niche sci-fi show. And, except this one is definitely so. So can you talk to me a little bit about the origin of the project both from like what sparked your interest in telling this side of a story that you told the other side of and for all mankind? And then maybe there was a moment where you were like, oh, we could actually do this practically, you know, researching for all mankind the first few seasons. There's a lot that goes into that show in terms of, you know, the research, the history, even though we're changing history, we kind of, it's really important to get it right. And the more we were reading and hearing about the Soviet space program, it was blowing our minds, what we were reading. Like it's the kind of stuff that you couldn't believe these things actually happened. And it wasn't stuff we could put in for all mankind because the show was more, you know, focused on the American space program. And the difference really was that everyone sort of knew about the American space program. We had countless books, documentaries, articles about the Apollo program, whereas the Russian program, I mean almost nothing is known, you know, and even in our research, it was hard to find things out. But we just felt by, you know, I think after a year or two of kind of talking about it and just being in shock about what we were reading was, I mean, we had a talk, we got a, there's something here. Yeah. So yeah, we were still talking to our partners at Apple and Sony about the idea and we think there's something here. It's a different genre. It's a different show. And, you know, thankfully they kind of agreed. And then the irony was we got them hooked on it and we were kind of starting to develop the idea and then Putin invaded Ukraine. Like, so that kills that project. And, but, you know, we kept, we kept talking Apple and they were like, well, we actually think this could be even more relevant now than ever, which credit to them for that point of view, because it's a brave point of you to have as a network. And so we just kept working on it. And I think to Ben's point, like the thing we felt like it was very important to us that this project felt completely different and unique for all mankind. And creatively, it wouldn't have excited us to do it. You know, we don't want to just do like a, oh, it's, it's for all mankind, but just the other side, it's just a mirror like it would that would have been boring to us. So the fact that the Soviet program was so secretive and that, you know, in for all mankind, so little is known about what they were doing it felt like we had a freedom to explore stories where you don't know what's going to happen to these characters and these missions because of the secrecy. When did you realize that it was an espionage show on top of everything else? Yeah, because I think if there was something that defined that program, and honestly, the country at that time was everything was being watched. And you know, and I think that's, I think the key thing that separated it from form and kind early on was like, you know, for all mankind is focused on the astronauts and engineers. That's the front of the beginning of that show. That's this was the intelligence and kind of what was going on behind the scenes was fascinating, and it felt like an opportunity to kind of almost dip our toes into a different genre. I mean, even, you know, Reese Evans, our leader, I remember he wrote the script, he said, I don't think I've ever seen a spin off that's a different genre than the show it spun off. Yes, totally. And I think that was what attracted us, you know, I think we've looked since we were, you know, in college, I think doing a spy thriller in the Cold War is kind of a dream project for any. Yeah, you're right. So we definitely like backed into that a little bit. We're like, this is our chance. Let's use for all my kind to tell the spite. Really, we always want to tell you that on behalf of all men in their 40s. Thank you. But additionally, what was so exciting about discovering the show week to week in the early going was that yes, you are playing with a playbook that is familiar and beloved. But I've never seen a spy show in which the, you know, it is people versus their own government, for example. Yeah. And then secondarily, I've never seen a spy show in which a mole can flee to Venus. So it's really using using the space as our actor friends would say. Yeah, that was pretty exciting. Yeah, no, you know, there's, there's a ton of spy shows out, right? I mean, it's the hot thing. So I think you're right on some level. We knew right away we're doing a different kind of spy show. Right. This is immediately because it's about space and the space program and spying. It's immediately separates it from everything else. But also I have to say the type of spying that we were attracted to was not due. We didn't want to do like a James Bond type thing. And that's not our thing. I think for us, you know, we love, I mean, like lives of others is one of the movies that for us stands out as one of these movies that stayed with us all the time. And I think the difference with that was it really explored the character, the dynamics of not just listening to other people, but the cost that has on your psyche and on the people, not just the people we listen to, but the people doing the listening. I think that was fast. No, it was like the humanity of these characters on both sides and the situation that find themselves in and how, like how does humanity. How is it affected by living in a system like this? I think that's what we really wanted to explore, especially with the arena character. And what does that do to you when you're when you're in somebody's life, somebody else's life. And, and you know, that's why I love that scene in episode three where she goes into this apartment that she's been like listening to for a long time. And then she's kind of having these flashbacks I think she heard and it feels almost transgressive and exciting, but also she feels guilty and like, it's just very messy and human. And I think that's kind of what we were trying to do with it. Now was, for example, was the arena character a way in for you? Did you have a particular person not in terms of actor, but one of these characters, an anchor character that you were excited to explore. I, you know, I am relatively ignorant of the deep for all mankind lore. So I know some characters are pulled from that show as well. I didn't know if there's one particular way in. The arena character was one of those ways in because the star cities started to kind of take form as we were working on season four of for all mankind. And so we were consciously telling the story. We introduced her as an older character who is very kind of, you know, ominous and foreboding. And then we were like, now we get to tell the origin story of how somebody becomes like that. And so we were conscious of setting that up and then, and then backing into kind of the more human part of her. And we actually wrote the pilot in Bulgaria as we were shooting those scenes. And so we were kind of steeped in that eastern European feeling at the time it was, it was kind of a perfect timing for that. A lot of forced, a lot of meeting potatoes. I think you guys have been very forthcoming in other interviews you talked about the influence that the Chernobyl mini series had. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that because it, you know, the, even just on the basis of the conceit of this is Russian but spoken in British stage, that works. Like that is a proven track record now that we understand that I was wondering the role that that show played for you both creatively, but also in terms of production and actually like as we were joking before boots on the ground. A huge role. I mean, I'd like to think we're in a weird way part of the Chernobyl universe now. We're out of the guidance must be like, I'm English. Yeah, would you like to see me at like a men's national jersey drinking a pint because no, I did that, you know, first of all, the show. Glue us away like it did most of the world and anyone who watched it. But I think more than anything, the quality of it, just watching it, how it really felt like you were in that place in time. So our first things when we were looking at doing the show is like, where do we do this? We're like, let's do it wherever the hell Chernobyl did it. And I think Lithuania quickly stood out not only because that's where they did the show, but the, it's Eastern Europe. A lot of the people in our crew, their parents, they were, they lived this existence. Yeah. So you were talking to our producer, Linetta, people we knew there who could tell us directly, no, no, that wallpaper is wrong or that the toilet would not be in the same room as the, you know, they knew these details in here. And that added a whole other level to the production. In terms of the accents, I think that was honestly one of the toughest decisions. I mean, early on in the process, we definitely explored and considered the idea of doing it on Russian because, you know, in the end, that would be amazing if you could pull that off, right? I mean, that would be the most authentic version, find yourself in Tim Cook's office. Trust me. Trust me. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, the reality of it is just so impossible. And then even doing the Russian accents, which it's so hard to pull those off. And in the end, you know, we struggled with it. And we actually called at some point Craig Mason, just to be able to talk to, and we said, what, what went into that? Why did you decide to go this way? And he was very blunt with us. He's like, don't even think about it. Just do the, do the British accents. And not even British accents, but I think for us, it was European because we have actors actually from also non-UK. Great David Denchick. That's right. We want to work with him for a year. Like we've been trying to find a role for him for five years. Top of the lake. Families like ours. He was just in. He's always great. Oh, yeah. Tinker Taylor. Like, he's just, and he's friends with Joel Kiniman. And so we had met with him a while ago. And we'd just been constantly trying to work with him. But to Ben's point, it was like, we were, we told Reese, he finds like, use your Welsh accent. Like, you know, because there's regions within the Soviet Union, like someone from Moscow doesn't sound like someone from Siberia or Kazakhstan or all these places. So felt like it added a layer of even more authenticity and like capturing the, the sort of pastiche of the Soviet people. It's like a socioeconomic thing with the accents. I mean, we didn't dive into it too far, but it does convey something that the accent you have, like the more posh you are. Yeah. There were these differences in Soviet society as well. So we tried to plane to that as well as much as we could. Yeah. But in the end, we didn't want the actors to be doing just accent work the entire time. These are incredible actors. I mean, we knew what we had. And we said, let's, let's make the best of who we have here. So we covered a little bit the historical interest in the period and the details. And you're talking about how just, you know, by being there, you got the aesthetics and regional things, right. I'm curious about how you pursued the cultural feeling. And by that, I mean, this is something I talked about when we were reviewing the, or discussing the penultimate episode. I kept coming back to that sense that Joseph Taylor. Davey's plays so beautifully in that brutal scene in his apartment of indignity, which is a very amorphous term to throw it an actor. But what the show builds over its season is that feeling of ultimately that's what defeats you. You know, you can get angry, you can be sad, but that hollowed out feeling. And I wondered how you chased the versimilitude of that emotion. - No, it really is the kind of inevitability of the state on some level. - Yeah. - And as much as you can try to tilt at the windmills of that, like there is a futility to it on some level. But on the same side, like one of my favorite scenes in the season is that scene between Sergey and the chief designer in the truck, where Sergey is just beside himself, he's betrayed, you know, the state has really won over this guy. And the chief designer says like, we still sent somebody to Venus and they can't take that away from us. And to me, that's the counterpoint to that moment in the apartment, which is like a real low for him, is like he still did something that, you know, as a human being, he can have pride in. And I think that's the real struggle in that type of authoritarian system, where there's this Russian movie called Leviathan also, which is amazing. And that really captured that as well, where like, as much as one person is trying to fight against the power of the state, they're almost helpless, but you can still, it's human nature to keep striving at that. - I think it speaks also to the really brilliant job you guys did in constructing a season because the moment you're talking about, Matt in the finale with the chief designer in Sergey, he's in some ways an echo of another scene of indignity in the pilot where the chief designer gets his metal in an empty room. And there is no sense that anything will be remembered or seen and at least these two share something. And it's about being seen and heard and remembered in a communal way, exactly. - It's really the struggle of TV writers, I think that's what we're talking about. - Please, please, please, please, please, please. - In reality, we're going together, weeping, you know? - Star City is an allegory for TV writers, that's okay. - Indignity, we suffer in the system, yeah. - The dirty truth is all TV shows are allegories for TV writers. - Yeah, that's what the money is for. - That's famously, oh yeah, that's David Chase. - Oh, that's not why. - The suitcase of the whole episode was basically, yeah, I'm just writing process. - You'll never let me out of this room, it's the premise season four or whatever it was. - I want to talk to you about two specific pieces of casting that certainly make the show what it is. One was the Anomex, one Martin is Roscova, who's a type of monster I don't know if we've seen before on television, and that's saying something in an era where there's like literally a monster's universe on your streaming network. - Right. - And Alice Angler as Anastasia, who is a type of heroine, I'm not sure I see very often, you know, in the sense that she's sort of halting and uncertain and a lot of it, what she gives is interior. - Yeah. - And can you talk about the casting process of those characters and how they shaped, of those actors and how they shaped the characters that you had existed only in your mind? - I'm glad you picked out those two in particular, 'cause I think those were the key, some of the key casting in the show. And I think Anna also even a fan of forever. And she, it's insane to me how little known she is outside the UK. I mean, she's quite famous. - Oh, no she's considered royalty, like acting royalty in the UK. And outside, you know, her name isn't as familiar, but anyone who's seen her work would not be surprised by the performance she gives here. And nor were we, but I have to say, like her approach to this character from our early conversations, we knew she could do it, but I think what we all wanted is to do a different type of villain and not just play into the cliche of this, 'cause it's so easily becomes a caricature if you do this wrong. And I think the new one she brought from, honestly, her background in comedy, I think more than anything, what we've learned, you know, over the years, is if you've done comedy, you can do anything. - Yes. - I'd say you're a writer, an actor, whatever. And I feel, 'cause it gives you this flexibility and a freedom. And she'd be on set, like cracking jokes. I'm like making everyone laugh, like just fooling around. And then within second, okay, let's roll. And she's now with a gun in her hand, yelling and terrifying. That's the talent you're dealing with. And when you have that kind of talent, the key thing I think in your role is just to let them, let them do what they need to do. And she understood early on what was in tail day. And it's sort of like, as the season progresses, the layers come out more and more of that character. Whereas with Alice, and what she brought, you know, to Anastasia, that was sort of the key casting for us, 'cause like Anastasia's the one that starts the whole show. And you wanted some of that almost in the beginning is in the background. You're not even paying attention to her. - It worked. - She's might as well, yeah. - And you cast the, is it Katarina, the woman who's going to go into space, you cast that so brilliantly as well. She's so dynamic. - Exactly. - You can't take your eyes off her. - It's also, I think with both of those characters, which interesting to us is the arc over the season with both of them, because with Ludmilla, we really put all our chips in on making her a monster in the beginning and making her, like the most intimidating person, like how, but in our writing process, we think a lot about, well, how is that human being made into that? And her experience is in the war and there's all these references. And then in the last two episodes, we were like, okay, roll up our sleeves. And like, okay, now let's humanize her. - Yeah. - Let's try to, but Anna, like she was, I think this is something a lot of actors don't have. She has the patience to like be the bad guy for enough time that when you humanize and you earned it. - Yeah. - And I think with Alice as well, like seeing her start to become more confident in herself and understanding the power that she actually does have. Like she probably has more power than almost anybody because of her, how famous she is. And her face is everywhere. And she's starting by the end of the season to kind of come to terms with that. And you see that she just, that scene with her and David Denchick, where she's like talking back to him in a more confident way. And he says, like, oh, you've grown. Like she is, and what's fascinating is Alice is so like the opposite of Anastasia. She's just this kind of like overflowing with joy and passion and like, and yet she captured that. That's all like, she just put that all inside the shell. You know, that's really fascinating performance. - Acting. - Yeah. - I mean, go figure. But we'd mill a slapstick arc. Season two is that where you're going. - The outtakes. - Yeah. - It was hard. I got it. There were times like, okay, we are doing a dark drama here. - Yeah. - She would just be cracking jokes left for it. Which in a way was a blessing, you know? Because the, you know, in like drama, especially comedy is so appreciated. - Yes. - But she is the one that I would not have expected. She's the cut up. - Yeah. - She's the problem. - Yeah. - She's doing the Aputau Alts, you know? - Oh, 100%. - The other challenge of the show, of which I'm sure there are many, to me would be how much of it has to come together off the page. Because you guys are here and you have a room and you have, you're carrying the spirit of what you think the show could be. But so much of it depends on very specific location scouting on production design, art direction. Someone has to do building 12 and make it look like that. And then shoot it to understand how it's working like that. I couldn't get over that you built like an emotional crescendo of an episode around Joseph Davies writing Algebra. - Like that's better in showrunnership. - Honestly, if you were just like, trust us. - Yeah, I'll pull this off. - Yeah. - I can't decide if it's a question more about the process or about whatever confidence or skills you've gained in your time working on for all mankind that allowed you to trust to that degree. - The run we've had between Fargo and for all mankind was very helpful because these are two unique shows where every season is a totally new story, new characters, new world in certain ways. That's unique to television. So I think it's prepared us for basically like, okay, jump in, how are you gonna wreak like, and it's not be precious. - Yeah. - But as you know, I mean this job is exhaustive and we were doing this, we were running this at the same time as you're running for all mankind. And we were back and forth between Lithuania and Matt. He would be there. I would be here. We would be swapping every two weeks or constantly. I didn't know what time zone I was in at a certain point. I was waking up at three in the morning in LA, up all night in Lithuania. It was crazy. But at the same time, you know, I think we had such a passion for this show and this concept that we couldn't believe honestly that we were allowed to make this show. We constantly feel like, our KGB was like, are they gonna pull the plug? Are they really letting us do this? - So this was the veneer emission. - You really were. - It was. Lithuania was our Venus. Yeah. And you know, it's that thing. I mean, there's a quote, I say a lot. Like Lena Weitz said this of a show running like it's being beaten to death with your dream. And I love that line because I think it captures what this job is that yes, we're doing what we love. You know, so you can't, you can't like complain. Oh man, it's hard. Oh, we're flying to Lithuania when we were creating these worlds and doing things that as a kid, I would be amazed that we're doing. But it is, it is all encompassing. And if you don't feel strongly about it, if you don't do the hard work, then it doesn't work. - And I think that the other key to that is, is like Ben and I had such a clear vision of what the show should feel and look like at the beginning. And then we found people that really got that vision. Nick Murphy, our director of the first two episodes, Paul Spriggs, the production designer, Steve Oster, our producer over there. Brendan Oagama, the DP, like all these guys and Nicole Fishnaller, our costume designer, like they all were pushing in the same direction. And so when we weren't able to be there every second of every day, you had people you could trust. 'Cause you can't do this alone. I mean, there's no possible way to do that. And so, but it really is important, like if you, if you're doing this and everybody isn't working toward the same goal, it's not gonna be good at all. No, in fact, what I appreciate about a lot of these people who worked with is there were times they would push back on us in terms of like I remember our makeup, you know, they were like, because we early on we said, no makeup, it's got to be accurate. And then you get there like, okay, maybe a little maybe this is kind of, but she hold on, hold on, I mean, maybe a little something, but they held our feet to the fire sometimes. Like, no, no, no, this was what you said. You wanted the ugly, you wanted the real, you wanted the this is what's the truth is you asked for makeup because you just got off the plane. A little a little help here. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. No, but they they is incredible team. And I think they all also saw what we were going for and we're excited about it. Yeah, they bought in. Yeah. This is this is kind of like deeper showrunnership. But like I I was so impressed with the way you guys played with time in your story. You know, anyone who had any passing familiarity with From An Kind, even if they haven't gone deep into the seasons knows that the show jumps forward and knows that there is a full spectrum of this alternate history to draw from. Knowing that going in and maybe even you guys knowing what the audience's preconceived notions might be the fact that the episode I don't know if it's four or five that ends with arena discovering the perfume picks up instant instant pick up the next episode with I thought really bold and exciting and also really destabilizing because then when Vanira seems to be an absolute ruin, you jump then you jump seven months. And I wonder how much time you give to thinking about time. Too much time thinking about time, honestly. But I think part of it is just you have to kind of let the story tell you what it needs. Yeah. And and not fall into patterns. You know, and so it just it felt like four needed to go right into five. And I think one of the things we've taken is like this show is a slow burn, but there's a version of this show that's a really slow burn where like you don't get to the stuff that happens in fort like arena doesn't find out till the almost the end of the season to them all is and it's like we felt like, you know, the story took us to this place of like let's get to each big moment and kind of like change the world and so that you never know where you're going to where where the ground's going to shift. Yeah, we it's funny because I remember six in particular when we finish writing that we're like I mean that's sort of the end of the season, isn't it? I mean, yeah, isn't that a great ending of a season? I'm like, what the hell are we doing now like re restarting the engine in a with two episodes left was quite a challenge I remember because we felt like, yeah, we we were like, this could be a mistake. Yeah, this could be a big mistake, which is honestly the best parts of writing when you're in that place of, you know, could this could work or not work, but let's go for it, you know, at some level. This is specifically what I wanted to ask you about because in my experience talking to writing teams, one of the greatest advantages of working with someone is you have someone next to you pushing you. Yeah, being like, no, go bigger, go go, go bolder. You ask where you could go after ending the season in episode six. I'll tell you, you'll have an aggrieved wife rescue her husband from a fucking space. Yeah, you don't get there. So I want is that is that a correct read on an aspect of your collaboration to push each other to go bigger? Yeah, no, I think it is it's it's it's that and it's some someone you can check in with, you know, I think there are there are constant moments. It's really interesting though, because I think we both we have such a similar point of view generally, but there's probably like 20% that we see differently and then we have those conversations arguments maybe. Yeah, uh, uh, where we work it out, but but a lot like I remember on them in season two of brawman kind, we were with the Gordo Tracy duct tape run. That was another moment where we were like this, we were sitting on set and watching these actors run around in duct tape and being like there's a 80% chance this is awful and silly. Yeah, yeah. And and we and yet we looked at each other and we're like, but when we thought of this, it was good. And yes, it might and we can it's a check. It's a gut check with each other. Yeah, there's a moment of like this. I you I rely like we're not crazy. This is going to work. And and I think in a way, I don't know how anyone does this job alone, by the way, like the you kind of need. I mean, the whole thing is collaboration. So we've had a writer's room of two since we began. So yeah, it's it's incredibly helpful, especially with the two shows going at the same time, especially when you are doing something this where, you know, oh my god, episode six suddenly became a finale because I think the other thing with television, at least the way we do it, we never really know the ending till we're in it. Yeah. And I think it's scary because you're like you're you're shooting the first few episodes you have not written the last episode. And I think that fear actually does something interesting. You know, it creates a lot of anxiety. You lose hair. No, it kind of allows you to react to what you're seeing happening on screen and in the daily's and with the actors. And instead of being like, no, no, do what I have set out suddenly we're reacting to what we're seeing in the first two episodes. I think that's the beauty of TV. It can be reactive. It can be intuitive. You can sort of yeah, you can enter a flow state. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's exactly what it is. And it's especially when time is getting short. You know, and you're, I mean, I think almost every finale of both for all mankind and and star city we've written like we've delivered it like almost right when production or maybe even a little after. But there is a there's a there's something about the fear in your stomach and the sort of time pressure that you get out of your own way a little bit. Yeah. You know, and I think some of our best writing has been in those what's that anecdote you would give with the baseball like. Oh, it was a L duke and on the Yankees he had this thing in the world. I don't remember what year it was, but it was in like the late 90s. He said like, I felt the pressure, but I felt no fear when he had like pitches for the first time in the world series. And I think that's the, you know, the the key to it as you can't get overwhelmed by it, even if you're under great pressure. I mean, he also defected from Cuba. Well, he has a different relationship. We went to a film score, right? That was hard. Yeah. Alone. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I think that it's so interesting that you guys, I mean, it's the role of the showrunner to understand what the characters are thinking at every moment and what the wallpaper should look like. But also, you have to trust that the show that you've built that can succeed in miniature of arena touching wallpaper can also allow for a Venetian self-sacrificial implosion. Like, yeah, you guys did that too. And it was super earned and incredible because I have never seen that before. Yeah. Um, and make it feel like the same show. I have to say that's what I need. That's like, because it's one thing with for all mankind. It's going to a point where, you know, frankly, we weren't like sci-fi guys before for all mankind. I mean, everything in Hollywood's like, what is, what are you right? You know, we, we started in comedy. Yeah. Fargo was sort of comedy drama. So it's kind of perfect for us. But then for all mankind came up like, we're not sci-fi guys, but I think in a way, it's not just a sci-fi show. And I think coming to this, it was like, wait, is this a sci-fi show? It was a sci-fi show? Like, I think if there is our bread and butter, it's like, we can't divide wrong. Yeah, exactly wrong. But I think what was important to us is whenever you're in a space mission on this show, and we kept emphasizing this even in the designs of the ships, how the ships look. We didn't want to feel like a different show. We wanted to feel like this is a different kind of prison. Yes. Up there. And, you know, the thing that guided us a lot was like, in a way, as difficult, you know, in for all mankind, you know, space is dangerous. And on this show, I feel like, what's more dangerous is getting back from space. Yeah. And I love what you just said, because I was thinking, there was a moment in watching the finale when I was like, my first thought was, my god, what does that cabin smell like? But my second thought was like, how could anyone live alone two people survive nine months in a tin can? And then I realized you've given us a show that answers the question, because they've spent their whole lives in some version of isolation. They're more prepared for it than anyone, totally. Yeah. It's really cool, thematically. Most of my questions that I have remaining are about, like, what more? Do you, I know you can't confirm or deny anything. I imagine that you have thoughts about what future seasons of the show could entail. Do you envision it similarly to for all mankind, and that we'll get like, go, go, Gorbachev 80s, or we focus more theoretically on these characters? I think one of the things that we're most excited about is not doing the time jumps. Right. On both, like, a personal mental health level and also just on a creative level, that we don't have to deal with prosthetics or anything like that. But it really is like you were saying with episodes four and five, like, we want to, we want to, like, keep in this world and just keep telling this story in the immediate sense. And, you know, it's been so great to see how many people out there are really responding to the show and loving it. And I can't wait to keep telling those stories. What's the real estate market like in Vilnius? Like, do you guys, is there, or can you convince Delta to do a direct flight? Like, I just want to make it easier. I'd show it for a direct flight. That would be, that would, that would be a game changer. Your mind status must be pretty, right? That's the one thing that was keeping me going. It's like, can I get lounge access? Like, what? I can tell you about every lounge in the Frankfurt Airport. Oh, is that, every, yeah, Frankfurt, if you want to learn about the Frankfurt Airport, that's like, I think that's like, hell, in my opinion. Frankfurt's airport is hell on earth. Yeah, I will say. If you want experience, hell, that's the closest you're going to get in our, in our, our, because my experience in, like, covering and talking to, like, Tony Bourdain, and then also people who worked with him was so interesting, although in retrospect, kind of makes sense, is that, like, near the end of his, not just his life, but, like, making the television show, is that he would get to the most exotic place and then send someone out for pizza hut. But, like, he's like, I don't have to be that person all the time. I need to care. I love the comfort. I wondered what your Frankfurt Airport or building it. It's funny. We, we, we had a reference this in front of me and kind too, or like, whenever I'm traveling overseas, there, there's always one day where I go to get McDonald's. Yes. And I think, or am I allowed to say McDonald's here? I mean, okay. It's one of you saying it already. So, we were actually shills. It was a McDonald's operation. This is what this all, really, That's what Sturcy is all about. Genuinely, it's what those Cosmonauts would want. - Oh, 100 plates. - Oh yeah, that's a good idea. - And when the first McDonald's opened, it was like euphoria or the going to Venus. - Yeah, so even, but there is something about the taste of home and it's strange when you're in Lithuania in the winter for months. And I love the food, I love the culture, but I have to say there's only so many variations of meat inside potatoes or potato inside meat that a human can handle. - They had discovered donuts recently in Lithuania and, but the problem is, they were then trying to make it like the Lithuanian version of a donut. - Like fish, fish on donuts. - So it's like pickle-carrying and stuff donut. - Okay. - And I was like, this is not, we're not quite getting it. - You're not quite getting it. - This is really helpful context for me because when I was feeling, oh, I'm homesick in London, should I go to Dintai Fong or Exlet today? You know, it's not exactly the same. - No, it's funny too, 'cause when we talk about Lithuania, like a lot of the people here, it almost felt to them like we're going to Siberia. And it's actually a beautiful first-world country part of the U.N., part of the U.N. - Honestly, I love that place. It's such, Bill Nius is such an amazing city and kindness. And like, it's really a beautiful country. And the people there are so nice, you know, and it was a great experience other than all the, you know, the travel was honestly what killed us. - Did you ever catch any British actors being like, "Oh, I've got an hour and a half to get with." Look, staring down the barrel of that commute, whatever. - They all, it's funny 'cause they all kind of fell in love with it in their own way. It kind of, what being away from their homes and being away from your home sometimes does also. You create more of like a unit, a family unit there 'cause you have to rely on each other camp. Yeah, but the place, I mean, you know, it's also, I'd always wanted to go there 'cause my grandparents had met there in the ghetto actually. And I remember when we first got there to scout it, the guy who was showing us around, he kept saying like, I can't wait, he looked at me and he's always like, "I can't wait to show you the ghetto." Look, you'll see what we did with the ghetto. It's amazing. And I was like, "What did you do with the ghetto?" And we arrived. And it was like, fans, fancy it up, you know, like gusty it up. There's the ghettos. Look at this, look at what we did with your ghetto. Like, yeah, it's wonderful, it's beautiful. But it was a bit surreal because now the hippest part of a lot of these old, are the ghettos because they were like, you know, cobblestone streets, really narrow, really cool. And now they're the center of life. - Should have walked around being like, "My culture is not your costume." - Just like telling my grandparents generation that like, yeah, I mostly hang out on the lower side and they're like, "Why?" - Yeah, get out. - You exist because we got away from there. - Right. - What are you still doing right with you? - That's hilarious. That's exactly what my grandparents say. Like, get out of there, go, go to where the golf club is. We did this for you, idiot. - All right, so can't confirm or deny anything, but the hope is there will be more star city. In the meantime, there is more for all mankind. And that's next on your docket, is that correct? - Yeah, we are heading to Bulgaria to shoot some and we're toward the end of the last season. - Yeah, it's really crazy. - I gotta say, I did get it in no disrespect to a show that I admire and I will return to you. But when I did hear from your publicist that you were going back to Eastern Europe, I was like, "Oh, yeah, I didn't realize that you had like multiple stops." - Multiple. - You're across a lot of the former work of that. - I'm not kidding when I say we are soon to be the experts on Eastern European film spots. - Incredible. Well, that's pretty much where we're all going to be filming soon. I mean, it sounds like you're getting in early. - It does sound that way. But it's quite a feat, in this time and day, the finish a show, any show from the beginning. Because even when we were pitching for all mankind, honestly, I don't think that show gets made at any other time in a place as it when it was. It's such a weird idea. Huge sci-fi based on no IP and the fact that we're now getting to the end of it is quite incredible. I mean, so we definitely feel the weight. I mean, we also feel the exhaustion and burnout. I think a lot of the show and the creators feel is that getting to the end of their shows. But it has been cool because it's a show, honestly, that's been shooting in Los Angeles for the most part since the beginning, which is also so rare. - You guys nailed it. - I know. - You guys looked right up. - We lucked out. I know. - Last ones on the gravy tray. - I know. - Just knowing honestly, it's sad like the last few weeks on set you kind of felt like, you know, are we ever gonna shoot here again, you know? And that feel, that really was-- - Yeah, it was emotional. - Yeah, 'cause the screw of these people we love that we've worked with have done so much, like it is that feeling with this, we can't just let this go. So hopefully, hopefully things turn around. - Did you tell them about the Frankfurt airport? Like, that will help LA. That will help the-- - Yeah, push the transition. But guys, thank you so much. I can't say enough about this show. I think it's a really special show. And I think the accomplishment is just incredible. Really congratulations. - Thank you very much. - Thank you so much. (upbeat music)