2912: SS-31 Peptide Benefits: Why Ben Pakulski Says This Is the Most Exciting Peptide Right Now

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind up, mind up with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump and today's episode we bring back IFBB Pro Body Builder and Science Fanatic Ben Pekolsky. It's always a good time with Ben, very smart guy. Obviously knows how to build muscle better than almost anybody. So we know you're going to love this episode. By the way, there's only two days left for the Maps Upper Lower Sale. This is a body building split, four days in the gym. There's a men and women's version. It's 40% off for the next two days. Go to mapsuporlower.com, use the code launch for the 40% off discount. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor, heat-tone IQ. So check this out. When you get on a ketogenic diet and your body and brain are running on ketones, you notice a few things. One of them is your sharper. You can think faster. No energy crashes. You got this real good, consistent energy. You're probably uplifted. You're in a better mood. That's because ketones are a very clean source of energy. The brain loves running on ketones. Here's the problem. It's the ketogenic diet. That means you have no carbs. That sucks. Eat no carbohydrates just to get those effects. Some people can do it. Many people don't want to do it. Carbohydrates give you energy for your workouts and they taste good. We'll check it out. There's a company called ketone IQ that has a product that gives you exogenous ketones. Meaning you take it and now your brain is running on ketones and it doesn't matter if you eat carbs. You got the focus, the energy, the mood uplift. It's amazing. I use two to three a day. Go to ketone.com/mimepump on that link. You can get a massive discount. All right. Here comes the show. All right. Real quick. If you love us, we love you. Why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear over at mypumpstore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to mypumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Well, Ben, welcome back to the show, dude. It's been a while, man. You guys have come a long way. We missed you. Yeah, man. It's awesome to see you. I'm glad you guys have come and you're still the same. Yeah, I appreciate that's a compliment actually, especially from someone like you. I love watching your stuff. You're one of the smartest people out there. Definitely the smartest bodybuilder, but I said one of the smartest people. I just say smart and bodybuilder. Yeah. It was a lot. Yeah. It doesn't mean much. Thanks, sir. But definitely get the job. Yeah. It's going to get the job. But definitely one of the smartest people out there. And since the last time we talked a lot has changed in our space. When we first met, which was a while ago, the like the use of peptides, the science around peptides. And this guys these new interventions were French. They were kind of French. We talked about it a little bit off air back then. I remember you and I actually had a conversation. And now it's like all over the place. It's like like a big deal. I'd like to start there with you with how you feel about that whole space of peptides and what you're seeing and how they're working with people and some of the research that you've seen around them. It's the greatest opportunity in in performance that exists and a really scary thing at the same time, I think. Because the possibility within peptides of healing of improving performance of eradicating potentially illness and disease is like nothing else with minimal side effects. However, the current landscape that we're in, I believe a lot of people going to hurt themselves because the unregulated nature of these things. Like I forget the exact percentage, but something like 90 to 93% of these things are coming in from China. And we have no idea what's coming in. So like if it's the peptide itself that we're administering, you're probably going to get a lot of great benefits. But we don't know if there's long term negative effects. We don't know if there's other toxins coming with that your LPS, your heavy metals. So like I'm super cautious with people. Like I'm not someone who's going to get behind it. And so everyone should be taking peptides until you know the source for sure. Like I very least start there. Most people buying these research usually peptides. I just can't advocate for it. Man, like unless I know exactly where it's coming from. And I know that I can I can follow supply chain and know the API is great. Because you know, I've actually studied this a lot more than I could talk about. And there's a lot of places where it can break down and supply chain because everyone wants to cut corners. And in the peptide space, you're getting a lot of weird people. A lot of like these people are like they like to live on the fringe. You know, not not the people using it, but the people who own the companies. So like they're they're looking for ways to cut corners. They're looking for ways to make more money. And I'm like, you know, if you're paying $7 for a bottle of something from China, like how good do you think it possibly is? Right. So the average bottle costs from, you know, you'll know the CBC and Chinese suppliers between $7 and $15. The margins are crazy. So I give you 10 suppliers right now in China that are between $7 and $15. They're charging one to 300 online and research you so many. You're like, how good could this be? So I'm cautious, but incredibly optimistic about the whole space. I'm a massive fan of specific peptides and I'd love to get into those. But I also want to start off with like I don't want to just make it sound like a panacea because it's not. I have a client who got heavy metal toxicity from peptides. Really? Yeah. Yeah. You got like pretty severe mercury mercury and aluminum. I think he had from maybe using peptides. But the thing is with peptides, you're not using one right using five right. And I was like, man, he didn't know I don't know where they're coming from. This is before he started working with me. It's a man. That's a big problem. So yeah, I don't want to be the advocate that says everyone should be using them. Although I hope in the future that that is the case and we're all getting from great sources. How did he know he had heavy metal toxicity? Was it through testing or symptoms or? Yeah. Did he have symptoms of heavy metal? Yeah. Again, this is prior to working with me. He came to me sort of like at the tail end of his diagnosis. So symptoms just like terrible low energy, like hard time, sleep and gut issues, like diarrhea, like frequent digestive distress. So like a lot of a lot of weird things happening in his body and you did the protocol. Uh oh heavy metals and was that the first place you looked the peptides? He looked there. So he came to me when it was like because he had been tested maybe six or 12 months prior and he said he was all clean and then did this extensive protocol with another coach in the subway. Yeah. Wow. Which peptides are the most exciting said they were few that you really like a lot of them, right? A lot of them have the potential to be exciting. And everyone knows the basic ones your BPC, your TV. I'm super excited about those. But the one that I'm sort of like most excited about right now, other than, you know, your, your GLPs like your red. SS 31. I don't know if you've tried it, but yeah, it's a remarkable product, a remarkable supplement like brain benefits, energy benefits. I've done quite a bit of a deep dive on the research there and it's not just seems amazing to me. So I know that one's going to be a pharmaceutical in short time. But I think that one's a balance. What's one of that one? So it improves mitochondrial function. What's interesting about that one is so I've used both that and MOTC. And I noticed MOTC did not notice the SS 31 dose. I don't remember what the dose was, but I was what was rushing my pyre. Really? Yeah. So actually, I know I did push it up. You know, if you know my personality, I don't. I don't remember what the dose was, but I do know I started pushing it because that's what they told me. But what's interesting is I've talked to other people and they will like one or the other better. I agree with you. And so now what's going on there because they're both mitochondrial, you know, improving mitochondrial function, but they're totally different than what they're doing, right? Yeah. Yeah. So SS 31, as you'll know, is repairing mitochondrial integrity, the cardiolipan molecules, driving more into the system. And I think that one works better for people who have a little more damage to their system, a little maybe more accumulated stress. So I've got my dad on 10 milligrams three times a week. And he's just saying, it's remarkable benefits. My dad's 70 years old and has, you know, heart disease and much other stuff. And so 10 milligrams a day is a relatively high dose. Most people are going to start around two milligrams a day. And so most people, most people I've given two milligrams a day recommendations to you would say, I don't feel much. I push it to five. Like, I think I feel something and at 10, which I'm not saying anyone should do, by the way, most people are going to feel a difference. Okay, especially because remember, all the people I'm talking to are men over 40. So by that point, you've got some accumulated damage, mitochondria for sure. And the hearty push your body. The more you're going to have. So with the MOTC, again, it could be a genetic thing. I don't know. Yeah. We're still like in the early stages of looking at gene influences because it could just be something there. I don't know. But it seems to be driving more of the AMPK side. If you're not in an AMPK state, if you're in more of an MTOR balance state, you may not feel the benefit of MOTC from what I understand. Okay. So, um, way we're sort of thinking about MOTC at this point, at least the way I'm thinking about it, is if I'm going to do days of extended fasting or intentionally being in a cleric deficit, I'll take some MOTC. It seems that research says that it's going to have better benefit when you're in calorie depleted state. Okay. Oh, interesting. And I remember you saying a while ago, you're like, yeah, a lot of people feel great on MOTC. You didn't notice much back then when you took it. No, I still don't. It's really interesting how some people react one way versus another. What I like that. I didn't like the MOTC. I didn't try the other one. I said, I want to do it for MOTC. I don't know. Whatever the recommended. Yeah, five million. So it's probably it's probably it could be a it could be a dosing thing. It could be a sourcing thing. Yeah, like there's so much variance, man. So what I've learned since setting this stuff, there's pH considerations. There's storage and transfer considerations. Mixing so many considerations. They're like, we just don't know, right? Right. Because if you get a product that's been sitting on a shelf somewhere or it's even sitting in somebody's freezer. for six to 12 months. Nobody's done the testing to say like, is this thing, because we're like, hey, we put on the freezer, it's good. Nobody's actually done the testing over six and 12 months to see. This thing actually can still have the same level of integrity and efficacy after that amount of time. We think it does, but we don't know until somebody starts doing the testing. So you're the perfect guy then. I'm so glad you're here because I love throwing things that people like to you just ideas. And so I've been really interested in these myostatin inhibiting kind of pathways, right? And there's a lot of money going into it now because of the GLP drugs. We've got this very powerful appetite suppressing weight loss intervention, but of course, the side effect of eating localities and not strain training and all that stuff is muscle loss. So they're like, how do we figure? How do we fix this? Which you know, it's a bunch of lift weights and eat a little more food, but they're like, what interventions can we implement? And so there's all this money now going into myostatin inhibition. Now the problem with that, at least from what I see in the data, is when they have animal studies where they inhibit myostatin, not through gene, knockout, but rather through intervention, is you see muscle growth, but you don't see a proportional increase in the athletic performance endurance or strength. Part of that, they think is mitochondrial density. It doesn't improve. So it's more muscle, but it's not very good muscle or functional. So I, as I'm reading this session, in fact, I was reading this this morning, I'm like, you know, I bet you a good combination with that would be a mod C or SS 31, a mitochondrial peptide to help with maybe this potential side effects of a mitochondrial inhibiting peptide. So do you recall what the data says around people just gaining muscle without training? Or is it like the training response is heightened? No, they just build muscle. So there was one with champs that was crazy. This is not a human stable with champs where they did two myostatin inhibitors or three groups, GLP, GLP plus, active inhibition plus whatever the other one is that inhibits, I don't know what the other pathway was, but there were two myostatin inhibitors. And the last group, they all ate the same amount of food, built muscle while losing weight, which is crazy because they were in such a low calorie state. So there's some powerful potential stuff that's coming out there. Yeah, you know, I did it with the guy on Saturday night who was selling me on this stuff. And I was like, to be honest, I haven't looked at it. So I've got some friends who went down to Mexico and did the gene therapy, gene editing for false that. And you know, yeah, I'm not sure. You guys are knowing. And most of them across the board said they put on about 10 pounds of muscle. Wow. Lost a little bit of fat and it seems to stay. But that's sort of the extent of my interaction things. Because to be honest, one, I don't really have an interest personally in getting huge amounts. You're trying to lose me. You've been trying to lose muscle for a decade. We met that way where you're. Yeah. If I want to put on muscle, it's there. So it's not a concern for me, but some of my clients are interested in adding muscle, but my approach to adding muscle, I would way rather teach you how to train hard and earn the muscle than just like take something to get it. I'm like, I know this world is, you know, we're in a looks maxing world. And I just heard that word recently. So what is this? I don't think you just had it being literally last week where our staff came in and they challenged us with all these words that we slang. Right. And that was one of them. All of us are looking at new ideas. I'm seeing you. You're viewing looks maxing. Yeah. So I get why people would want it. But like I'm so much more interested in teaching people how to master their body because putting on 10 pounds of muscle because, you know, speaking from a guy who's been there, right? I walked in the Olympus stage and I was like, Oh, is it? You know, I was like, I accomplished my dream. I looked the way I wanted to look. I was like, Oh, it didn't change who I am. So what I know is as someone who's done what I mean, a lot of people want to do is put on all the muscle. It doesn't change my character. So just because I put on 10 pounds of muscle, it doesn't make me more confident. It doesn't make me anything different other than like, oh, maybe I look different in the mirror. Confidence is built through challenges, both through struggles, both through overcoming obstacles. So if the reason we're trying to build muscles because we want to be more confident, we want to be look better. Well, go do the work, right? If we're building muscle because you want longevity benefit, go do the work. You know, like I don't know that just just muscle is what we're after. Yeah, how do you communicate that well because or effectively because we know this we've been we've all been working out for years and we train people for years and I know you've done the same. And if I had to list all the benefits that came from the fitness journey, very little of those benefits are actually the the yeah, the physical end result. So many of the benefits are just the whole process. Person on becoming in the process. Yeah, I mean, I'm you know, fitness is such a microcosm of I guess life. Very simplified, you know, like it's hard, it hurts, I suck, I gotta get better. Yeah, I gotta show up. I gotta be disciplined in the carryover to everything else is profound. But how do you sell that to somebody when someone just is what sold to them so much is the benefits that you look good. Yeah. Well, I'm going to go a lot of different directions and depends how long you got. But I would say the side we live in is extremely difficult mentally, cognitively, emotionally, a lot of a lot of emotional stress, a lot of mental challenge, but physically very, very easy. So evolutionarily, we had a lot of physical stress and not a lot of psychological stress, right? Some psychological stress, but even if they were psychological stress, it was always coupled with physical stress. So what's happened is there's a disconnect, right? An evolutionary disconnect where now we're having so much psychological stress and no physical challenge. So the body becomes this metabolically disconnected organism where the brain is constantly in a state of fight or flight and the body sitting in body sitting on the couch or sitting in the car, you know, reacting to someone cutting you off. And so we have to intentionally curate hard things for our body. Otherwise, the body will break down. I think that that's my stance. It's like we have to intentionally curate challenges. We have to intentionally curate struggle to make sure the body and the mind can be in harmony. So when I'm stressed, whether it be from work or from driving the car and getting cut off or whatever, moving my body is the fastest and most effective way out of that stressful state. So if people learn that and they can operationalize that, that's what changes your life. So most people are trying to change a psychological state. Maybe it's an inadequacy. Maybe it's insecurity. They're trying to change that by changing the way they look. And it's not the way you look. It's the movement to get the way you look. That changes the psychological state. We're trying to outthink our way out of. Can't do it. No, no, you can't think your way out of that, those types of things. It's interesting. I've been really digging deep into a lot of that data on anxiety and stress. And I have kids and I have two older kids, once twenty, once sixteen. So it's been interesting for me for a little while. And when you look at it, and you know, I've heard people say this, like, oh, we're just, we're so stressed today or the stress is different today. And I've heard that argument before. But then when I think back to previous generations, like, you know, you're living through the great depression or we're more, we're more, we're like, that's way more stressful. That's way more stressful. I don't know how much it's less resilient. Yeah, like what's the difference? And so what it brought me to was was research on what is protective against stress. And what I keep coming up to is, is there a purpose behind the stress? Do you feel a mean, do you feel meaning behind it? Because if you're, if you're doing something stressful and you feel like it's worthless stress, it's very stressful on the body. But if you're doing something like, look at volunteers. I love looking at research on volunteer workers who go out and get poor sleep. And they're out there serving people and helping people and they're doing it for free. And they just feel good. And it's like, those people are under a lot of objective stress, but they don't, they're not reporting lots of stress because they feel a lot a high sense of purpose behind what they're doing. Man, you nailed it. So that's where I was going to go. And I think the best example, maybe the most extreme example, maybe the best example is Elon. Elon Musk was a perv day. And like, how do you see your three companies at the highest level in the world? Sleep four or five hours a night and still wake up and do it every day. You're like, that's just remarkable. Right. So he's driven by purpose. You know, it could be some pain because I know I had some trauma as a child, but like, it's got to be a deep purpose, right? So, you know, you nailed it, man. And I was, I have a 19 year old stepson and he's going through some stuff right now. And I'm like, man, you just need something bigger than yourself. Like he's like, I have anxiety. I have this. I'm like, every man has anxiety at some point in their life. Maybe it all points in life, but they're willing to outwork that. They're willing to realize like, Hey, I have no choice. I have to get up and do the work. I have to get up and grind. I have to have a reason to get up. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit in my anxiety. I figured it was, I think it was either Mark Twain. Somebody was writing recently and I was reading about it recently and they were saying something like literally every man is living with anxiety, living with inner torment. They just get up and go about your life, right? And then you find the things that are important and the anxiety fades away because you start filling in all those gaps and deficiencies that are causing the anxiety, right? If you're anxious because your health is bad, well, we have to fix that. If you're anxious because you're broke, we'll fix that by making money. If you're anxious because, I don't know, your relationship status is bad or your insecurity, you're insecure. Like you start fixing those problems if you're willing to do the work or as my stepson just started like sitting home waiting for it to fix it itself. I'm like, man, you got to get up. It's a tough one. Yeah. As a father and seeing that in your 19-year-old stepson, are there things that you have implemented or you communicate to the younger ones? Like, or this, like, do you think about that a lot? I think about stuff like this a lot. Like, as my kids grow up. Make them face challenges and hard situations now because they just have to realize that they're just not- Or just don't rescue them. Yeah, exactly. They have to figure out that they can do it on their own. Is there an example you can think of that you can draw on though that's happened recently where it's just like there was an opportunity for you to do that? Like, are you seeking out and putting in those situations? or you're just aware of the opportunity of, oh, here's a time where I can. - Well, so the example that stands out to me with my kids is sports. So they don't always win. And sometimes they don't always get the call. - It's good, so good for that. - So good for that. I think every kid should play sports. You're like, "Hey man, you didn't make the team "or you didn't get my son right now. "I was just starting football." And he didn't get the starting job as a quarterback. And you're like, "How are you gonna deal with that?" Like, "How are you gonna react?" And so the natural inclination is like, "Ah, you know, put the other guy down." I'm like, "No, no, man." He did great. He pushed you hard. Honor that. Respect that. Shake his hand. Next year, come back. Beat him. How are you gonna do that? You know, I have to get better. So my son's doing his sprint training every day and he's doing all the things. And I'm like, "That's his decision, not mine." Right? I'm not gonna be the one who's like, "The angry dad yelled at my son to do the work." I'm like, "No, man, that's not me." Like, my job is to facilitate what you wanna do, but you have to make the decision to move toward the growth. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So good. - You know what's interesting about that? Almost like one of the worst things that could happen to your kid when you put him in sports is he's excellent at them right out the gates and it's always super good. Like how do you, that's actually not a blessing that can potentially be a big curse. - 100%. - That they just go in a crush on the thing that changed my athletic career as a young one. I got cut from the 12 year old All Star team baseball team. And they're like, "Sorry, you're not good enough to make this team." I was like, "Okay, thank you." And I was hurt and they brought me back as the last taxi player, which basically meant I had to go on the practice team. And I was like, "Okay, I'll do it. I'll take it." And within a couple weeks into the season, I was late. I was hitting lead off. Most hits on the team ended up MVP of the team. It was like, "That's cool." I was cut and I was dejected. And they gave me an opportunity and I was like, "I'm never gonna, I never wanna experience that again." And that took, like I was a pretty solid baseball player from 12 to 17 when I gave it up bodybuilding. But that was it. It was that event. And I remember it clearly because I was like, I'm never gonna let these coaches down. Those coaches were hard on me. I was 12 and I was like, "Go, keep going. I'll take it." And ever since then, I'm the most coachable guy in the world when it comes to interacting with coaches because I remember that. Like nobody could be harder than me than those four guys who was four coaches that team. They beat me into the ground. I was like, "I don't care. I'll keep going." So that was a good learning lesson. - I don't think there's anything better than sports for kids for that reason. - The reason why I bring that up and ask that is I've got a seven year old who has no interest in sports whatsoever. And it's so crazy for my wife and I who sports are on 24/7. We play sports all the time. Like it's a part of our life. And he's just Legos, Puzzles, Reading, all the, he's such a great kid. And like, and I just slowly try and introduce it. Now I know we both were late bloomers. So as far as getting into sports. So there's this hope that eventually. But I think about this a lot because I know what it did for me. And I know what a great set, every day from practice to games to cut to, there's so many lessons within it. And as a dad, if you're aware of that, and you see it's just, it's just presents these great opportunities. So I always think like, what am I gonna do if he does it? Like there's a possibility that he says. - I would just create some man standards in the house. Like, hey man, men can defend themselves. Are, you know, are a shave for men defend themselves. And we'll do Jiu Jitsu and we run. - Yeah. - Or like we lift or something, you know. Create standards that like, this is an interesting thing that maybe you guys have even thought about. You probably, I don't know, anyone be on my grandfather, I don't know their names. I don't know anything about them, right? Anything older than my grandfather. But think about our kids. Like we are gonna be the first generation where there's gonna be a time capsule for the rest of time. We're gonna have digital fingerprint for the rest of time. So it's your opportunity now to sit back and go what legacy do I wanna create for the name of the back of the jersey? You're the start man. You like there may be guys who've come before you. And I always think like, I come from a very strong line of men. I don't know who they are, but I know where they are the strongest of their generation or their strongest of species, right? 'Cause they have to survive. So like you got to be intentional about what you start now as a legacy for your family. It's like what traditions do I wanna create? What standards do you wanna create for my kids? And like, so, you know, I want my kids to play sports, but it's not just like, hey, pick any sport you want. I'm like, hey, we gotta have standards. We have to have daily standards around. We're gonna do this every day. And so I have what I call four master skills and they have to study and do something for their four master skills every day. And that started, you know, soon as they're sort of able, I'm happy to share those, but it's basically like, well, I'll share it there really quickly. So it's master your body, master your finances, master communication and master your emotions. 'Cause I believe those are the four most important things for young people. Now you can make an argument, there's other stuff. But master your body, master your finances, master communication and master emotions. And so all of my kids are focusing at some level on doing some stuff for that. And it could be little, like, hey, did you do 10 push-ups today or whatever, but like we're gonna do something every day. Why? Because I want in the back of their mind when they don't know what to do with themselves, when they don't look like I'm bored, they'll be done your master's skills. So we just have a low level standard but you gotta do something, you know? - I wanna, I know it's been a little while since you transitioned out of a pro bodybuilding, but you've been one of the more successful people to do so. And I can't imagine the challenge that a, well, any pro athlete, but a pro bodybuilder in particular would have having to change their identity, I guess. To go from this really huge muscular whatever guy, competing to switch into something else. And I see that often as a very difficult transition for people, but you seem to have no problem doing it. Like, talk about that a little bit and change your identity to going from bodybuilder guy, competing on stage, you know, getting big, strong, shredded, you know, prep, you know, all that stuff to moving out of it to like what you do now. - Yeah, you know, what comes up for me as you say that is bodybuilding is always something I did. It wasn't something that I am. And I know a lot of people have themselves, their identity wrapped up in what they do. And for me, it just never was. So, you know, even until I was a pro bodybuilder and passed, you know, I would be a pro body for many years, I never told people I was a bodybuilder. I love to train, I love to grow, I love to work hard. Like, I didn't see myself as a bodybuilder, you know, and maybe that's some version of inadequacy. Maybe it's some version of like, I just never was my identity. So, leaving bodybuilding almost felt like a relief for me. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, yeah. So, bodybuilding is something that I needed, you know, I had a pretty rough childhood. Bodybuilding gave me a lot. Bodybuilding gave me everything, to be honest. Everything I have to this day, bodybuilding has given me. So, leaving bodybuilding felt more like I could go back to being who I truly am, rather than the armor that I have to grow to overcome my deep level inadequacy, deep level insecurity. So, yeah, depending on how deep you are going. - Well, do you feel like you had a good relationship with it all the way through, or do you think that this is mature wise you talking back about it, you know what I'm saying? - In the beginning, I didn't, I don't know that I ever had a bad relationship with bodybuilding. I just wanted to be better. Like, bodybuilding for me was about, you know, the contest was a pageant. It was about who might be coming, how much am I growing between each contest? How could I improve? So, at some I was 17, I went to the Olympia in '98, which was Ronnie's first win, and I was 160 counts, and I was like, this is all I want to do. And from that point on, the standard for me was like, I want to look like Flex Wheeler, I want to look like Jay Cutler, I want to look like Doreen Ace, and until I'm there, I'm nothing. So, it wasn't anything other than this pursuit of I'm going there to the top of that mountain. And I was never worried about my placing in a show, I was never worried about anyone else's feedback, like, oh, you got big arms, small arms, small calves, I don't care. Until I look like that, I'm not there. So, I was so goal driven that it was just like, consumed to me. So, I don't think I had a negative, like a lot of people talk about having body is more feeling like, I don't think I had that. I think I was just like obsessed on achieving my goal and obsessed with being the best version of myself in the gym. And you could say that comes from, so when I talk about my childhood, I come from a family of obese alcoholics. Everyone was lazy, never finished high school. They just blamed everyone outside of themselves. And I hated that. And I felt like I was never like them. I feel like I just don't feel like I'm like these people. And I didn't want to be like those people. So, it became part of my identity to move away from that. I'm like, I don't want to be like them. Somebody the exact opposite of what they would do. And that drove me. So, maybe that's why I set this goal. I'm like, that's the exact opposite of what my family is. Yeah. Yeah. And I left bodybuilding to be honest, even to now, I feel more myself now than I ever have in my entire life. Even as a young kid, imagine like feeling like you're part of this family of obese alcoholics, you know, drug addicts, gam mechanics, and not feeling like you belong there. I can't be myself because I was very judged. My mom had a part of the alcoholism. So, I was always sort of mistreated, treated like the step, you know, the stepchild. And yeah, so I was never able to be myself. So, going through bodybuilding, earned, I think I earned my place in this world in bodybuilding. That's why I wanted to be the best. I'm like, I'm gonna go here, 'cause I'm gonna make something on myself. Yeah. I'd argue that it was part of you finding your identity - One other thing. - And it's more of a, which makes sense to why, to Sal's point, why you seemed to have this kind of, almost easy transition out of it because you didn't wrap your identity around it. It was more so, I proved to myself, I'm not that other thing. Yeah. And you've already proven that. And it was probably some sense of relief of like, well, I'm done proving it. I don't need to prove anything anymore. And so. Back up. So, you went to the Olympia 98 and 160 pounds. First of all, we'll brought you to the Olympia. So, I didn't have a good relationship with my dad growing up. Like, my dad, looking back on it, he's a wonderful man. But my parents had separated and I didn't have, we didn't have a lot of contact. So, when I was 15, I wanted to play sports, so I moved, high schools to go live with my dad because I had to be in the location. It's because of the school. So I'm living with my dad, just him and I. And we didn't really talk. We didn't know that my dad was not a very good communicator. So I started training and I was like, Hey, dad, I'm going to train at this gym. So if the road could you sign me up? He's like, Yep, I'll pay for it. No problem. So I'm training at this gym and I didn't want to be a bodybuilder at all. No interest. Just one, I just want to train because I was being recruited to play D1 baseball. So, but I want to get to this gym. There's a lot of bodybuilders there. And I open, I still say this point, I don't want to be a bodybuilder. I opened up a magazine one day. I think it was Muslim fitness, mid-abend flex. And I saw it and I had it for the limpia and it was like six weeks. And I was like, Hey, you want to go, I left it open on the kitchen table. Like you want to go to this? You go, sure, let's go. And six weeks later, and I went and we drove down. It was 10 hour drive from Toronto. And I was like, this is all I want to do. I just knew it's just, that's so random. I was just, yeah. How did you know, because 160 pounds is way different. That's why you became, that's why you could even see that I want to do that. You're looking at that at 160. That's even your foundation. So baseball too. So how did that just shift real? So I don't know. And it was in the gym for, you know, six months, maybe 12 months at that point. And I love, I think I have a bit of obsessive personality. So I was training twice a day before school and after school. I just wanted to be the best and I just wanted to be fast. It's like what I found in baseball and I was stupid. I didn't have any coaches or anything. I just like, if I do this stuff, I feel faster. So I went to the gym twice a day, the same thing every day. And I was like, I'm going to go over this because it makes me faster. It was great. So I was making decent progress. I certainly see some changes in my body. And then I don't know me. When I got to, I can remember this clearance. It was yesterday, like exactly who I was looking at. Well, you know, Ronnie Coleman, they were wearing these suits. Ronnie Coleman was wearing a blue suit and he was, imagine a bodybuilding. You see, you see four feet wide. That's back when they had them all tailored to be, yeah, this big old two. Yeah. They're too cute. They were too cute for a friend to go on the team. And he was so small, right? Like the Olympian, I was this big event back then. It was like this little hall. It was, it was a joke. Was it in Vegas? Was it in Vegas? New York City. The next year was in Vegas. 9.9. Wow. That went to that one too. So there's a funny story. In '98, I went to, it was in New York and I was 160 pounds. And next year I went back and I was 230. Whoa, you went from 160 to 230 is a kid in the first year. Well, how old were you? 17. Holy. So you're obviously still natural at that time. Okay, so this is when you knew you had genetics. Yeah, for sure. For eating maybe. Well, so you were 230 and fat? No. Yeah, it's probably, I was under 20%. I was probably 16, 18%. Yeah, that's a lot of muscle. Oh, a muscle. 15 pounds at that age. That's insane. 70. 70 pounds at that age. Did you know? As you're training and gaining all that size in a year, because that's insane, because I think that's how much muscle I gain my whole life. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Were you like, oh, I think I'm good at this. I think I have genetics. What is training? Anybody say anything to you? Like, hey, dude, you. So here's a funny story. At the 99 Olympia, some man comes up to me and he says, hey, I'd like to write an article for you. I write on you. I write for one of the magazines. On you? On you just some kid? He goes, as one of the future mass monsters of the sport. Now, my red flags will be going up to the last second. You want to talk to a kid about it? Yeah. So we did a little interview. I never saw that article, but that was sort of the first validation for me. Like, oh, maybe I'm on the eye tracking because in one year, I was. Did he recognize you from the previous year or something? No, he just saw me and he said, you just saw some jacked young kid. Yeah. I'm sure. Wow. And you had no, and so at that point, did you think, oh, I got good genetics or? I didn't care, man. I just, so, you know, call me stupid. When I started this quest from like the 17 year old 160 kid, I just didn't have any doubt that that's what I was going to do. So I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes. There's no like, maybe I'll do it. Maybe I won't. I'm like, I'll train six times a day if I have to. I'll eat fucking dog food if you tell me I need to. That's what I'm going. So I didn't care for anyone's validation. I wasn't looking for anyone's validation. And then the next year, I think it was early 2000. I was walking around one of the first shows I ever went to locally in Canada. And I got my first bodybuilding contract. I got a contract with muscle tech. Is it before you competed? Wait before I competed. What? Because you're just walking around. Have to look crazy if people are doing this to you. Yeah. Well, how did that happen? So you're walking around, is it like a supplement expo or something? No, I was like, a bodybuilding show, you know, like a local show or they have like some exhibit set up. Yeah. And because muscle tech was a Canadian company, they were based there. So this is either late 99 or early 2000. This one they had with the cell tech. Greg Covax. Yeah. You guys know who that was? Who? He was giant. Remind him for order pounds. Greg Covax. That's just like overhead behind the neck pressing four plates. I see him all that. I know. Five over and four. Yeah, I see him. He was not yelling. Yeah, if I see him, I'm sure I see him. He was in all the muscle tech. Well, you guys just say, I mean, I was taking, I'm taking a cell tech around those, those years. So I know they've taken all that. So this is Greg Covax, KOV. I have a feeling. I have the name already is ringing about. He was just a giant. He was like a giant human being. Was that their first big signing? Was he the first big face of them? Yep. And then were you to follow? I mean, no, I was a kid. But like, I was very happy to be getting free supplements. I was going to say, what was the contract? Free supplements. Whatever I wanted. Because the company was new. So I literally just pull up whatever I wanted. You remember when that was such a big deal though? We talked about this all the time. If you would have asked us the way back in the days, if like, we could just get free subs, we would have probably done that. So I met him. That was the year before I went to university for the first year. And so when I went to university, I had this muscle tech contract. I had the muscle tech team athlete jacket. I had closets full of cell tech. And they used to have mezzo tech bars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Closets full. So I would trade. So like, that's all I got through college. And I was like, yeah, I'll trade you. I got some protein. Totally. Oh, yeah. I totally remember. So see him on the right there next day. Yeah. I remember him. Yeah. He passed away, right? Yeah, he did. Yeah. But he was, I mean, he was so strong. I mean, he benched six, seven plates and just insane. Yeah. And saying, okay, so you get this contract. You never competed. You didn't even look for it. You're just walking around and you're how old at this point? 19. 19. And how, do you remember how big you were at this point? Probably 240. Okay. Do you, at what point is someone coming up to you and saying, was it them? Were they like, you got to compete? Were they more interested in like, now we just want this jacket. They just want the jacket. Because I was going to university. I was like, yeah, I got to go to school for four years. So about, yeah, I never made any commensate competing. When you look back at those two years of training, what were you doing right and what were you not doing right? Taking advantage of new beings, I think. And now I was just training all the time. I was very blessed. I'll say like circumstantially, I went into that, I just happened to be within walking distance of the only bodybuilding gym in Toronto. I could walk there in 15 minutes. Winter, sun, summer, dead man, I'd walk, you know, twice a day. And I met these two guys, brothers who were way further ahead. They were much farther ahead than me in bodybuilding. They didn't necessarily teach me how to train. They taught me what hard work was. And these guys are still friends this day. And without those guys, I wouldn't have been the man I am. Like they just set this standard. They're only a couple of years older, but they were just so much bigger. And they worked. So when I moved to the US and I tell a story off to them, I podcast, when I went into Venice, I was expecting professional bodybuilders to be really hard working people. And so I'm laughing because I've heard so many stories of, dude, I was ready to go. But the Southern California bodybuilder. I'm ready to go to war, man. And I'm like, oh, that's fucking gone. I'm going to kill these guys. And I'm like, what was that? I'm not going to call out names, but I was like, this is a workout. I was like, what do these guys do? Is this a joke? So these guys, these two brothers, and his Vick and Dan, they taught me everything. And they used to just destroy me and destroy each other. And so we were not right sometimes. We were doing crazy stuff. So when I went to the US, I was like, oh, I can hang with these guys. I'm better than these guys. I would do two sets to everyone for everyone I was training against. So that was always a real point of, it was a really advantage for me. Like psychological advantage for sure, but physical advantage. My conditioning was way better. My strength was way better. Because like that was my standard. I just like, like, nobody would keep up. You know, there's a couple of bodybuilders throughout my career that kept up with not many. Who are the ones that you branched with? >> Branch trained with the guys like that. >> I never have to train at Branch. I call them on so many times. I never want to do it. >> Oh really? >> No. You know, because we had that like public conflict, which is sort of contrived. But I was like, dude, come do one workout on my gym. We'll do my stuff. Then we'll go to your gym while the year's style, whatever you want. Didn't want to come. That's okay. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah, I didn't know that. >> Broly Winkler. >> Okay. >> This is fucking freak. >> Really? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Stupid, strong and ridiculous endurance. >> Okay. >> Ridiculous endurance. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I don't know these trains like a maniac. He still take 10, 15 minutes between a set. But like when he gets going, like that guy's output is nuts. >> Wow. >> Yeah. He probably has the greatest output. >> You ever train with Cutler? I know he also had a fast pace. >> No, I never train with Jay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That was that. Broly is the only bodybuilder. I was like, like, I had to work to beat him. Usually I didn't have to work to beat people. I could like goof around a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Be a cocky prick. >> Yeah. >> There's a couple bodybuilders. You watch them, you watch training videos of them and you just see they're certain like this bar is the one, like just crazy working with that. He's just maniac in their, uh, plants, like just absolute. >> I think plants was, I mean, I don't take anything away from him because he was like, my girl, like, I'm looking back at it. I think it was a show. Like, watch those videos and I'm like, I could do that. Like the output and the, uh, the escapades and I'm not sure if he was actually thinking he was working hard or if it was actually just like a putting a show. Oh, we're going to quit that. I'm taking a thing away from him. But watching him and I was like, "It's a bit of an exhibition." Well, because if you watch Dorian Train, who I have the utmost respect for. Oh God. It's crazy, but it's not this exhibition where I'm trying to scream at the camera and just, "Jaw man, do the work." Dorian's impressive because his gym was just. Nothing. It was like a small little junky. Have you been there? I'd never been there. It's a dark, the most interesting thing. The gym I started training was also a shittle. Where was? It's the one I started training out that I was saying I used to walk to. It was called Max Jim in Toronto. The guy who was an 87-year-old Japanese man, his name was Max. And he'd welded all the equipment personally. Wow. That's like one of your dreams. Talk a little bit about the culture because we brought this up on the show. So we would love to communicate to average person. As trainers, like I'm not speaking with fitness fanatics. I love fitness fanatics. We could talk science all day, the hardcore stuff. But I like talking to the average person because they need help. And one of the fears that people have, especially women, and it's less these days than it used to be, but still is the intimidation factor of going to the gym. And when I try to communicate to these people, it's like the more hardcore the gym, the better the culture. Like you'll walk in. You can be a total beginner. You can be a 65-year-old woman. You can be 300 pounds. And you walk in and you put out some effort. And you'll get experienced people coming over just trying to help you and coach you for free. Talk a little bit about the culture. Because I think we're missing that. And I think it's such an important aspect of a fit. I think it's one of the most valuable aspects of gyms. Yeah, it's a great thought, man. So my gym is like that. My gym is an amazing culture where everyone knows your name. And you're trying to say people at the time, and we're trying to make each other better. I was blessed in the beginning, exactly as you say, to be like the kid who was dumb and like a deer and headlights. And I just had some old dudes feel like, "Hey man, don't do it like that. Do it like this. Try this way." I'm like, "Okay, all I have, you want to laugh? You guys laugh?" "Yes." "My first nickname in the gym?" "What?" Little Screamer boy. [laughter] "Wow, he's that." "Wow, he's the gym." "Oh, man, he's the gym." "You just scream like this boy." "I just go and work hard like that." [laughter] "Yeah, that's my first name." "And they love you, but they love you for it." "This kid over here is killing himself." "He's awesome." So man, my habit was, you know, I'm good at failure on the bench press, but you get stuck. So what do you do? You roll it off. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, "What are you doing?" "Man, ask for a spot." "Oh my gosh, I don't want to bother anybody, so I roll it off." "I roll it off, you chat." "Stupid." [laughter] "It's just, literally, I've been talking about this recently on the show, because, you know, we worked in big box gyms, and we've been in the gym industry. We were in the gym industry for a long time. And so you start to see trends in the gym and gym industry, and you see these trends where they seem to come out of nowhere. You're like, "What is it about this trend or what's going on? Why is it attracting so many people and what's going on? What's happening here?" Crossfit was one of these. Crossfit came out of nowhere. And these are crap hole gyms, barely any equipment. They're typically, don't even have AC. The programming isn't great, but the super popular. And it's not that they're deadlifting squatting. I know that they kind of brought those back into popularity, partially to credit for that. It's the community. They industry community. And it's so funny because it wasn't that long ago. I was watching, I've seen pumping Arleys a million times. But I was watching it. One of the things I like to do when I watch it when I was a kid is I would watch the background. Because you've seen it so many times. I know what Arneult is going to say. I know what's happening with Lou. But I'd watch the background. The weird dude in the back doing the funny curls when Lou's working out and this guy over here doing this thing. And I realized there's no music playing. There's no music in the back. They didn't even play music in the gyms. Like, you know, gold wouldn't allow music in the gyms. You wouldn't allow music in the gyms. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. No. So, Joe Gold started Gold's gym. So, it's someone in the dead corners. And then he started World Gym, never allowed music in the gym. That's right. It was about the culture. Well, we've talked about that. But I never knew if that was like a rule or just just-- I just didn't want it. Oh, interesting. If you made-- you know, did anything crazy kick you out? Like, he kicked everybody. He got terrible temper. Yeah. Yeah. But, so, you know, as I'm watching this, I'm like thinking about it. Like, one of the worst things I think-- I know people are going to hate this because fitness fanatics don't care. But I think one of the worst things that we've done is where headphones in the gym. We're in our own little bubble by ourselves. Yeah, you're right. And people won't talk to you because you have the headphones on. Nobody's talking to each other. I mean, my own sp-- now, I get it if you're like super hardcore fitness fanatic, you know, because that's your thing. That's me. When I go in there, I don't care. Yeah. But most people are not fitness fanatics. And most people need to develop a relationship with fitness that lasts forever in a community that does that. And there's no opportunity for that when we're all isolated. In our own little bubble, and what used to be a culture thing. Yeah, I hear you, man. I would say that if you and I trained together, for example, I would hope that the conversation, the dialogue that we have between sets, would be the thing that makes you better in life and in the set, you know? But we're going like a trainer, bro. I know. So many people are trying to like, you know, block everything out. The dynamic you create should be the thing that makes you better. Yeah, I think that's important. Like again, maybe not everyone's training with other people, but I think everyone should aspire to have at least one training partner. What a gift. When you look back at all the guys that you trained with, was there anybody that you hit it off so much with that you trained consistently with for a while? I had some great ones. No pros, man. No pros. No, I didn't have any good pro bodybuilder training partners. Was that just because they didn't live up to what you thought? I didn't get along well with any of the open bodybuilding guys. That's so funny to me that you don't. You have such a likable E212. Were you more of an asshole before we go? Were you a prick? You probably were. You probably realized how much harder you train to reals than you lost respect for everybody and you wore that on your seat. I would disrespect anybody. I would, in fact, I would love to train with anybody. But if I'm trying with you, I'm going to make you know that you're inferior. But okay, by any means necessary. Right? So I think that may have come across in a way. No one's in dating a little bit. Yeah, by any means necessary. So yeah, no, I think I just, I think you know when you're interacting with 10 to 12 or 15 of like really alpha men who are competing for each other's salary and competing for each other's trophies, you're not going to be friendly, man. I was close to Cedric. I was close to Sean Rodin. I was close to Brandon. But because we travel together later in the career, I was close to Dexter. By I'm close to Dexter, we travel together a lot, you know. But like as far as training in the gym, I don't think I train. So who's the first guy that obviously wasn't a pro bodybuilder that like you were lifting and you went, oh this is someone I want to latch on to or that I would work out more with. Who was that to you? So I'll say this, if any of my old training partners are listening, I wasn't always nice in the gym because it was all business man. And like if anyone slowed me down, they weren't going to last very long. So training partners were the people who were willing to show up, do the work and not fucking complain. And there wasn't a lot of those. I would burn through those pretty quickly. So throughout my career, I had four guys total who like were long term training partners. Yeah. And it would be like, hey man, you want to do lunges? Hey man, you want to do extensions? Yep. Like all day I would say the whole fucking work out is. Yep. Yeah. I was like, perfect. Because I don't want to hear about your fucking problems. Yeah. I don't want to hear about your life. I don't want to hear about your eight. I don't want to hear about your knees being sore. If you can't show up the train, don't show up. Yeah. So I was all business. And that wasn't always received very well by men who have Chinese ghosts. Yeah. So yeah, there's a couple guys, man. So like Vic, the early guy who's, you know, massive influence on my intensity early. There's another amazing story behind that one. I'll show you the story because it's worth sharing. So 2013, I got second in the Arnold Classic. And if you guys remember that, but Dexter beat me the night before. Yeah. And the night before 6 p.m. Chad Nichols is coaching for this show. He comes in my room. He's like, dude, nobody's beating the show. He's like, you're fucking dialed in. You're so dry. You're going to crush everybody. So Chad leaves. I think it was like 8 through your 9 p.m. I start cramping. And my lower body starts cramping. You know, my abs start cramping. I throw it. I throw it. I throw it. I throw it. So you're like, okay, this is bad. So I take Q1-9, which is anti cramping, Q1-9 sulfate. And cramping starts to come down. But then I start vomiting. And then I start diarrhea. And then vomiting and diarrhea at the same time. Every 45 minutes through the night. So it started at 9 p.m. This is the night before. Night before. Every 45 minutes. And I would try to sleep. I couldn't need you to think as I throw it up. So literally every 45 minutes on the clock. Every four of a minutes, the diarrhea or vomiting. And so I'm, you know, I'm like, fuck, I'm out. My tan's all fucked up because by that point you're all tanned. You know, tan's all, like, because I'm sweating in the night. And I'm cold and, you know, just a disaster. And then it's like, I think 10, 30 the next morning. And I'm like, I have anything since 6th night before. And I was like, I can't do the show, man. I'm sitting laying in bed. I'm like, can't stand up. I'm dizzy. I'm like, what do I do? Should I start drinking water? And I'm like, Chad, what do I do? He goes, I'm, man, like, I don't know. Like, see how he feels? Because I couldn't even be an an eye. I couldn't do anything. And then I got to call it 10, 30. maybe he was 11, from Vic, who actually from his wife. Look at this guy, he was my earliest training partner. And she's like, "Hey, she's talking to my wife." And she's like, "Hey, don't tell Ben, but Vic can't make it for the show. He's going in for a testicular camp." He's got a testicular camp, so he had to go in and have his test score and move on Monday. So I didn't know that. I was on the phone, I meant my wife was on the phone. And so I'm like laying in bed, and I'm like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "Vic can't come. Tell me why." So he's like, "He's got to go in for a testicular camp, so he has a testicular movement." And so I'm like, in that moment, I was like, "Fuck it, let's go." Like I'm sitting here complaining about a sorbally. My best friend's about to fucking lose his testicles. I'm like, "Let's go." I'm like, "Call the tending lady, put her on a tan, pull my hat over my eyes, walk down." I'm like, "Let's go, we're going on." And I was like, "Stand behind the judges. If I pass out, let the notes go on." I didn't eat the whole day. I could fucking second that show. Like most people don't know that. Like the night before I got tested. Even after the night show. So I did the morning show on the night show. Even after the night show, I went to dinner. I couldn't eat. It's like the whole day I went to that show. So you see me at that show and like, "I got second, so I just looked okay." But imagine not eating for all the time. - Oh yeah. - I said, "I'm not drinking water." - I said, "Fill it up, not at the test." - Now what caused that was it just the-- - I have no idea. - So the last thing I ate had a burger and fries at 6 p.m. So you could say it was diuretics. You could say it was because I was cramping. You could say it was the food, like, "I don't know, man." - Wow. - But yeah, I don't know, it was a rough night. And I just remember like going on stage. I would walk off stage and put my head down. Everyone's like, "You all right, I'm fine." Like, "Leave me alone." But if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gone on stage. - Oh man. - To take second and to be that probably flat is crazy. - Yeah, I'd try to eat a banana. Do I can eat a banana? - Wow. - I believe, wasn't it a J-Cutler who won one of his show? It's the famous Quad-Stomp photo. And I think he had like the flu the day before. - Something. - And it made him shredded. - Look at him. (laughing) - He came in real dry. - I think he funned off his stage. - I don't know. (laughing) - That's what happened. - That's sick for him. - Now, when you're working out with these guys, are they ever leading? - No. - As they say. - So they really work out part of our business for you. This is your job. - Yeah. - I mean, I think we're all like that too. I don't know, nobody's leading my workout. - Yeah. - Is that a leading workout? - No, no. If I'm working out with someone, I don't wanna work out with somebody that gets some workouts. - Yeah, I know what I'm doing. - That's why I may, I think there's, - If you had someone you trusted, you would. - Yeah, maybe someone, maybe my coach, someone was coaching me. - I think I hired you and you're like coaching me through it, then you good. - That's what I mean. - I think with fitness fanatics, it's not so important. I think culture's still important, but it's less than it would be for like the average person shows up and they're consistent because they're part of this community. And I think we've totally lost that. - Can you, can you, like all these crazy workout partners and situations where you've pushed like that? Are there workouts when you think back because what, thousands, tens of thousands now - Yeah, what's the dumbest workout? - What I just say, are there workouts that stand out like that one? - Like definitive. - Do you have like workout? - Of course I do. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - So there was a period where two training partners, one for the first hour, one for the second hour. I did that for about three hours. - Straight out. (laughing) - So I was literally walking the chain room. - Hey bro. (laughing) - He's walking the chain room. - He's on one today just saying no. - Yeah, he's getting slager. - Did you guys do that? (laughing) - I was walking the chain room, changed my t-shirt, come back up for around two hours at a dry t-shirt ready for the second workout. - Oh my God. - That was pretty intense. I would, I don't know frequently, I would often do 20 sets of one arm dumbbell roast. - Wow. - All for workout. - Just to go and do 20 sets of one arm. Like heavy is like like, you know, 200, 220 pound dumbbells. Just like, 2021. - Was this because back was like an emphasis for you and back thickness or whatever? So like I gotta hit this. - You know man, I learned too late, like maybe right at the right time, but had I learned how to train earlier, I don't think week body parts would have been a thing. I fell into the dogma of like, you know, if Doreen hates to look at his back and look at the exercise he does, you should do those too. Or like, "Ready Coleman does this, so you should do that too." So I got really strong and I was dead lifting 800 pounds. I was doing bent rows of five plates. It was very strong and I didn't grow my back. And then all of a sudden I was, so many said to me like, "Hey man, you're just doing the rhonic sizes for your body, your body structure is different than these people." - Why don't we find the ones that actually direct tension to the lat, instead of just mindlessly moving weights? And when I finally found the things that worked, everything started to grow. - Wow. - So that was just a big paradigm shift for me. That's where the whole business that I run came from. It's like I went through this entire learning phase of like, how do I actually understand what this muscle is supposed to do for my mechanics? That's the difference in what I do now versus what most people do. It's like your body's extremely different than mine, which means your set up, your exercise selection should be different. So that's what the whole business is based on. And once I figured out the exercise, actually fit my body, my body started to grow. - So that, okay, that ties back to what I asked you earlier that I didn't feel like we got to finish was, you were looking back those first two years, you build this muscle, we talked about something you did right. What would you say you did wrong? Like so knowing what you know now, if you could go back and tell 17 year old kid, hey, train more like this or less or more of this. - Yeah, I'm not the same, man, 'cause the thing that I did really well was I learned how to train hard. And you could argue that training hard is should be first or you could argue that training well should be first. You know, training hard for me was great. It caused some injuries, caused some challenges, but I managed to get through them. Yeah, so like, I'm not sure if I would have said change anything looking back on it, like hindsight is hard to change. - 'Cause it played such an important role, right? - Right. - Maybe you were doing everything the right way, but the-- - It wasn't your character. - Yeah, say what you got from that, still played such a massive role. - But at what point, 'cause obviously you got crazy genetics at an early age, at what point do you incorporate performance enhancing substances like antibiotics? - So I did my first cycle, probably going in the summer before university, 'cause I was about to do a show. So I would have been 19. I was about to do a show. So I was dieting for a show. I hired my first bodybuilding coach. - So I'll put you in this point, you haven't actually done a show yet. You've just been training to get bigger. - It's really like 240 or something like that. - So going into university at my first university, I was 260 with abs. (laughing) You know what, this is so good to communicate because people think steroids do what they don't. And this is just not the, I've, look, we've worked in gyms long enough. - Then you put 70 pounds on before, to get some strength. - Yeah, I know more than that. - There's 260. - There's people like, - That was a hundred pounds. - You can take guys and take all the steroids in their life and they'll never eat it. - Dude, I knew a guy, I'll tell you a funny story, dude. I used to own, I was part owner of a gym down in Palm Desert for about a year and it's relatively close to Mexico. So I'd have trainers that would drive down there, come back with a bunch of gear or whatever. And I had the sales guy that worked, I won't say his name, but I had the sales guy that worked for me that was just taking, I mean, he was come a cause he did. He was taking so much stuff. It was just whatever he can get his hands on. And he just looked unhealthy. - Yeah. - I mean, he might have gained 10 pounds of muscle. I'm not exaggerating. But he just didn't look good and he was doing all, and people like, is it fake? Well, no, I know it's not fake because I use some of the stuff and I know other people use some of the stuff and it was totally different. - Yeah. - So there's one guy that you guys would know in the fitness industry who's the same idea. I went and met him probably in 2012 or 13. I'm like, that's your fucking stack. He brings out his notebook and he shows me, he's like, this is what I'm taking. I was like, what? Like you're taking this and you look like that. I'm like, geez, something. That was the first time I got it. - This is it for you, dude. (laughing) - Give it up, man. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So you did your first cycle, your 260. What was the cycle and what did it do to you? - I got really strong. I think I was taking 400 megs of tests, 400 megs of EQ. I was on it for probably 12 weeks. It made it a little longer than that. So I know the foundation of it was testing EQ. I think the first six weeks was EQ, no, the first week's because tests in deck are second, sixth week is testing EQ. And I would have rotated through something else on top of that, whether it been in a dynamol or would have been, there was another molecule, which I forget. But yeah, 12 weeks, maybe a thousand milligrams of total. Just 'cause I had to coach it at the time as I could take this. I was like, all right. Yeah, I remember since nuts, but I remember, skull crushes with the straight bar of two plates. So nuts, I was very strong, very strong. Like I couldn't even, even during my highest level of bodybuilding, I wouldn't do that. But that first cycle was nuts. - I can't imagine you. - I do that peak with D ball because I know what D ball is. - I know the first time I did D ball, it was the most insane thing that every time I came back to a body part, I was lifting 10, 20 pounds more. Every time. - My first cycle of trend was like that. I was like, this is not right. - Yeah, I remember scaring myself being like, this is way too fast. Like I'm this strong already. - From what I've read about tremolone, 'cause in the early days, people were using trend at like 170 milligrams a week, 200 milligrams, and I'm seeing people online, 600 milligrams a thousand miles. - That's fucking nuts. - And they're talking about all these psychiatric issues from it. Is that true? - Yeah, I was using that little back then versus-- - I remember it was 30 milligrams per milliliter, and I was either doing, I started off with half a milligram, or excuse me, half a milliliter three times a week, so 15 milligrams three times a week, that was my starting dose. - So 45 milligrams a week? - 45 milligrams a week, yeah. Or I think I probably would have gone up to like one ML three times a week, that was my, but that was like, I was, by that point, I was competing, I would have been 24. four, 25 at that point. - Uh-huh. - Yeah. - How's the first show go? So you do the stag? - The one, huh? - The one? - Yeah. - Yeah, I won. Funny, 'cause I just never thought, I never doubt I was gonna win, man. I just always knew that, if I did what I needed to do, I would win. Yeah, so I won my first show, and I had a mentor really early on, and he passed six weeks after my first show. Had a hard attack. And so I was scheduled to do another show six weeks after, and I was like, fuck it, I'm about to do it. I felt like I lost my mentor in the sport. I was like, I don't know that I wanna do it. And then three weeks before, maybe it was like two weeks before, I was like, let's just jump in, do it anyways. So that qualified me for the provincials, which is the same as a state show. That was the next year. Won that one, next year, skip a year, I went and did the Canadian nationals lost by one point, else was North Americans, lost by three points. - You actually break that long between shows early on? - A year. - Oh, wow. - Yep. 'Cause that's not really common, when you're climbing a ladder, you're doing shows like, I just had no desire to do shows. I just wanted to win. So like, if I'm not ready to go to do that show and win, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, go. - I get that. - Yeah, I'm like, go on. So, yeah. - Yeah. - How was, how was, like, one of the hardest things, I say that even, so I only ended up doing six total shows in my career. And I still to this day don't think I ever brought the best version of me to stage. Peeking, it's harder than what people really, like there's many times where, the day before or two days later, so I'm looking at my head, I'm like, whoa, this is what I want it. It's hard to do that. Did you hit that out the park right away or did you feel the same way where it took a long time to really dial that in? - Yeah, thanks, still to this day. - Okay, so you feel the same way too. I feel like I've never, no one's ever seen the bet like on stage, the best physical. - Yeah, I've had some good ones, but not like. - Yeah, I agree. - Not, yeah, I think, you know, I had kids in 2012 and '13, so I started hitting my peak in 2012, probably would have been, 2012 and '13 would have been, like as I was just coming into my peak, that's where my son and my daughter were born. So I had I continued, I would have hopefully keep getting better. Looking back at it now, man, I think the absence of peaking is just stupidity. Like you're just like doing dumb shit. Like looking back at what I know now, I'm like, if you just stay consistent and you're actually in shape, it's so easy to, you know, now I peek, guys, it's very easy. - Yeah. - 'Cause what I tried to do in the past, like, oh, you got a salt load and then you got a water deplete and you got a carb load and you're like, man, just like keep it the same. Like keep it simple, a carb load is fine, but I think people are at least eye-over-complicated at it. - Yeah. - 'Cause you get so many different pieces of advice, not sure what am I, am I ready? Am I not ready? Should I take this diuretic? Should I do this water load? Like, I don't know. So you're just always trying new things, you know? - Yeah. - So it's great to learn, but not great to get the consistent outcome. - How common are the GLPs now in bodybuilding? I gotta imagine that they're using them in pre-contests for dieting. - I don't know. I don't really keep in touch with a lot of bodybuilders and I'm just, man, I've been to show and, I would say limpia a couple of times, but not much. - Yeah, I guy like you, would you look at, 'cause, you know, I don't know, this is for everybody's, always look back and go, we were so much, you know, hard, you know, it was so much harder for us, but I mean, looking now, if you saw a bodybuilder using GLP in a pre-contest, would you be like, pussy? (laughing) 'Cause that's like the hardest part, dude, is like you're starving yourself. - Yeah, but I love that, right? - So I think the thing that bodybuilders miss is like the hard work is the prize, man. - Sure. - The discomfort. - You like the pre-contest diet? - I love it. - I agree with that. - I agree with that. - There's something, there's something to be said about knowing that most can't do this. - You can't do this. - Yeah, I just, there's something about, I mean, this is the people that scoff at bodybuilding as a sport, because, oh, it's not as good. The fact that there's never a day off, you compare that, that's the thing that it makes it like a sport, is that name me another sport where you don't get a day off. Like it's the, everything that you intake is accounted for, every workout can't be missed, and there's something about knowing that most people can't do that, is this. - I feel like if I wasn't suffering, I wasn't enjoying it. Like I was either suffering in the gym or suffering because of the diet. Like I wanted to suffer, I loved it. Yeah, you could say something about my mental well-being. (laughing) - Yeah, but I think that's, I think that there's something about, that's what makes you successful at it, is that you versus being the person who, like, you can complain about it. Yeah, you have to lean into that. You have to lean into it. - I don't know how you would make it. - Yeah, sport like bodybuilding without. - Yeah, you would make it very far, I wouldn't think unless you find a way to, which way I would. - So, are you in a place all that intensity now? Like as you're, - Well, he's Zen now, dude. - Yeah, I know you're the Zen guy. You're so chill, - Yeah, you learn that it's a tool. So, you know, I had a lot of aggression as a young kid. I had a lot of, yeah, I guess just the questions are right. We're at a lot of energy. And I was told that that was bad. I was told that, you know, you're a bad kid, you're misbehaving, you get up and jail. And I didn't realize it was just a part of me. You know, it wasn't all of me, it was just a part of me. And so I sort of put it away, or I thought I was a bad person, I compartmentalized it. And I was like, oh, you know, I'm a bad person. I made it about me. And what I realized is that was my gift, but nobody ever told me that. And when you learn to use that, nobody else, not a lot of other people in the world have that level of intensity, that level of commitment, that level of compulsion to move towards something. And if you learn to wield that tool, that weapon, it'll take you far. If it controls you, you'll go in the wrong direction. You know, so I learned through my bodybuilding years, through many other years, whether it be meditation or plant medicines, that that's just an amazing part of me that I don't want to deny. But I don't need to let it come out every day. It's still there. If I want to access it, it's still there. And I think it's a superpower. But it's not useful if I'm having a conversation. It's not useful if I'm reading to my kids at night. Like that's not-- So I just always think of these different versions of myself in this different level of arousal that I get to play with. I get to be really intense what I need to be, but I get to be really calm and center and want to need to be. That's the premise of my business. The business is sort of taking the shape of what I call the warrior and the monk. So obviously the warrior, self-explanatory, is like I want to be able to run, jump, play, fight, all of it when I need to at the highest level. And then I want to be able to be the lighthouse in the storm and become-- So do you do martial arts now for those bursts of intensity? Or just training? So it's funny. I would love to do martial arts. I actually did a lot of Muay Thai after retiring, and I love it. But just finding time in my day now. So my kids are my top priority. So I'm taking to every sporting event that I can. So it takes up time. It takes up time. So I still get my workouts in. I still get my cardio's in. But trying to make time-- I feel like I had 20 years of selfishness. Now it's time to die I'm no longer the top priority. But once my kids are off to university, I'm sure I'll go back and do something like that. Tell us about your jam. How's that going? And you mentioned the culture of your jam a little bit earlier. So let's talk about that. So when I'm there, I know everyone's name. I know what they're working out that day. I probably know what their wife's name is, or their husband's name is. I know what the dog's name is. I know what the kids name are. So it's a culture of making everybody better. Like I want to understand you. I want to understand why you're in the gym, understand why you're struggling. I want to understand what your mental challenges are. And I want to make you better. And because I've done it at a high level, most people will give me the time and be like, hey, I'd love to take some advice or last me a question. So that creates a standard. So like everyone sees me doing it for them. And it lets the guard down. No one comes in with a big ego, because they know they're not the top of the totem pole. Like some people are. But you guys know this. The people at the top of the totem pole generally aren't the ones with the big egos. It's the ones sort of like, totally. Try to fight fighting to be there. So I'm very blessed to have a lot of really great athletes in the gym. And we kind of just keep this culture of supporting each other, caring for each other, and making everybody better as a common value. Have you had to bury anybody in a workout in there? To hum as I can. [LAUGHTER] There it is. Have you had to humble any members? He's often as I can. Of course. Because I would imagine-- so what happens, too, when you're that guy, right? He has that reputation. I imagine there's always somebody who wants to challenge that. And so you're-- That's funny. So two years ago, probably I think there's two years ago in June. I tore my labor and my hip, my left hip. I did it during a leg workout. And ever since then, that's the worst body billion year I've ever had. That sounds horrible. It's horrible. And ever since then, I can't squat and I can't deadlift, but I suffer for 340. I limp for 340 days afterwards. So my squatting and deadlifting, since I did that, I'm like, I've asked about surgery, and not just surgery, because I don't want to stop the training. But I love to go, man. But if I go literally any amount of deadlift, any amount of hard deadlift, I just limp. I look like an old man. So my training in the last two years, I'll have to admit reluctantly, it's taken a bit of a back seat. It's not the same as it was before. But ironically, I shifted into doing a little more sprinting. And sprinting feels great. Doesn't hurt my-- Interesting. So you get sprinting. I get so great. I get so great. But if I had loaded deadlift, even I put a bar-- I played on a bar. He was going to hurt the next day. Wow. How'd you hurt it? What were you doing? Leg press. I was trying again. I was leg press. I was there in somebody. Yeah. Oh, God. Really? How much weight you have on there? Yeah. But going too deep. The whole weight room. Going too deep. Right. Like, my gosh, shit. A little on control. You know, I'm just getting stupid. Because your training with somebody's got to be you. You got to show them up. Damn it. You got 25 anymore. Right. You got 25 anymore. And I even when got stem cells injected in my hip, and didn't make a-- It's like I have no pain. But if I should-- - I do certain things. How often are you able to go in there? - To your gym. - Oh, well, most days. - Oh, awesome. So you're in there all the time? - Yeah, most days. - Oh, that's great. That's gotta be so awesome. I feel like at some point I wanna own a gym. Just, you know, if we ever retire, which I don't know if that'll happen. - You have no better name in cells. (laughing) - He was so great. - I'm sure he had to pee to Rio. - He's the morning and so pee something back. (laughing) - Take a page out of a planet fitness. (laughing) - But no, I just, just the environment, you know. I mean, we actually have trainers here now. That train client is so good. - And I love walking out and seeing people working out and training together and it's just a vibe. I just love it, absolutely love it. So it's gotta be so great to be in there. - Yeah, it's good and bad, right? So if at first four or five years, people weren't allowed in there. And we had coated trainers, but no public. - Yeah. - So now, you know, like I imagine somebody came into your office and like, you something fucked it up and then left. (laughing) - These people do, man, they don't respect me. So sometimes they'll a little pissed off, but that, usually run a pretty tight shit. Most people in there are pretty good. I have a very strict, no asshole policy, so anyone breaks anything and kick them out or at least they act negligently with a kick them out. - I would imagine because you keep it so limited that you can almost do like an application process for-- - We did, we did. Well, so we have a waiting list. - Oh, you do, okay. - We do a waiting list. - Oh, so that's kind of cool. So then you can start to, you can-- - Or you can kick someone off. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, sparse people out there. - Yeah, and I don't need your money, right? I'm all like at the point where I'm like, I need yours 300 bucks and like fucking take it out, man. Leave me alone. I have my peace in my sanity and you fucking $300. - You've been remarkably consistent with who you are on social media and it's been a long time now. And there's always the allure of the algorithm pulling you in a different direction and maybe slightly compromising who you are integrity, but you've remained incredibly consistent. Talk about that a little bit because I know a lot of people try to build their business through social media. And I've seen this, you know, so we've been doing this for a long time too and you just see this, you just see how people change because the algorithm, you know, it's gonna reward a certain way of communicating or style or whatever. - Yeah, my team's trying to get me to do it. I just have no desire to do it. - Of course they are 'cause that's their job. Like, hey, here's what you gotta do, their clicks. - Yeah, I have no desire to be anything other than myself, man. And like, I've had relative success, thank goodness, by being myself. So for me to change to do something else or be someone else just, like this doesn't make sense to me. Like I don't wanna play someone else's game. I wanna play my game and I think, when I'm authentically myself, generally comes across pretty well. Most people react pretty well. So, I guess because I've had some version of success, I'm not chasing anything at this point. Yeah, I think I chase education, I chase knowledge, I chase wisdom, I chase results. And if I just exude those things effectively and I myself and, I love solving problems. I think that's why I shifted into coaching people is, I basically look at a body, the same way I look at a business, I'm like, there's just complex problems to solve. So you're like, how do I solve this problem in the most efficient way? So I just take those values that I live by and speak them online. - When we met each other almost eight years ago, I think it was, you were already successful. So what has, over the eight years that we've been friends, what has the business look like for you as far as, like, has it been this even coast? Did you have some tough years that went down? Did you have to pivot a lot? Like, what is that kind of journey been like since we've known each other? - Yeah, so prior to COVID, I was doing very well in exactly what you guys are doing, actually, the digital programs. - That's right, I remember that, that's right. - Yep, so we're doing really well on that. And I was mentoring some coaches, I had a couple of times a year, I'd take on 30 coaches and mentor them, and I was going really well. So the digital programs are always great revenue, easy to do with the gym. So that was easy, and then COVID happened, and everyone stopped working out. So I was like, "Well, I gotta pivot." So I pivoted into more mentoring of coaches, and then taking online clients. And it wasn't even an intentional, I got a re-build myself first, like, well, that income is going to go, I'm just going to offer this coaching thing, which I had been doing anyways, just sort of ramped it up, and that just went really well, because I'd been mentoring coaches online, I just plucked the best ones out of the cohort, and like, "Hey, you want to come work for me?" And I pay better than anyone else in the industry, so I was able to retain the best coaches who've still been with me for five years. So that's been sort of the business, just the COVID pivot, because nobody knew how long it was going to last. - That's right. - And I knew if we were going to have gyms opening again, so that was sort of the biggest pivot, and it was a blessing, you know, like, while I would love to go back to the e-books and programs and stuff like that, the interpersonal connection that I get from working with clients is remarkable. - Yeah. - So, like, the income was easy, or not easy, it was consistent when I was doing the digital programs, but I lost connection, like, I wasn't, you know, hugely in touch with clients, and because I wasn't doing bodybuilding anymore, I wasn't really wanting to build muscle, I wasn't trying to, like, get out there and be aggressive in muscle building, so it was just, like, beautiful opportunity to transition into, like, mentoring men of a 40, coaching men of a 40 to, you know, whether it be performance focused or longevity focused. - You know, when we first met, too, you were also on this, lose 100 pounds journey. - I did. - Yeah. - I guess in 225, but I felt like ET, I felt like I was skinny. - Was that the lowest of the lowest you got down? - It was like my biggest size, dude. - 225. (laughing) - 225. - And were you having-- - I'm having a big structure. - Were you hovering right now? - 235, no. - Oh, okay, only 10 pounds higher than that. And how much have you had to, like, scale volume and eat all that? - It's very low. Like, man, if I go back to the gym for three weeks, and just like, I could figure it out. - Oh, I imagine. - Yeah. - Do you ever play with that ever once in a while? Do you ever say, do you wrap it up? - I get some meat out, it comes through the gym, wants to train, and I'll end up being 260. (laughing) - I know. - I see the good one. - I talk to you, okay, so this is something that, you know, I'm approaching 45, and so, you know, I never heard anybody communicate this to me when I was in my 20s or teens. I always heard, oh, it gets so much harder when you get older. And so I just always thought that, you know, being fit and being strong and having muscle as you get older is so difficult. I think that comes from the, if you didn't start until you were. One of the things that I've noticed is I've gotten older is actually how easy it is to stay fit. - Keeping muscles easy. - Yeah, the amount of training I have to do today, and I don't know if that's a testament to those crazy, three, four years of bodybuilding for me, or what, but it is wild how little, the kid, the 20 year old kid that used to train double days to just gain an extra five or 10 pounds, I mean, I think now it's like, God, I touch a weight, you know, every few days, and I'll hang onto a lot of my muscle. Like, how has that been for you, and do you communicate that to people? Like, that's one of the things I try and talk to people about. Like, man, just-- - It's a sewing point. - Yeah, stick with it right now, 'cause it actually gets easier if you keep building on it for years. - Yeah, it actually surprises me how much strength I've been able to keep, and how much muscle that, if I want to turn it on, it comes back. Yeah, much more than I would have expected, considering how little I have to do. - Way, yeah, muscle memory's crazy. - Yeah. - It's actually remarkable. - And we all heard that get thrown around, but I don't think it, I don't know. I don't know if people explain it well enough, because I didn't think it was gonna be like that, not like to the level, just like you're saying. Like, the effort that I have to put towards just to maintain, and if I want to turn it on, and I struggled to gain. I didn't put no 50 pounds on in a year to like-- - So let me ask you this question. - Is it the same for mobility, or is mobility go way faster? - That's an interesting question. So because I have an interesting mobility journey. In fact, when we first met, I was on my kick of like really getting working on my mobility, 'cause it sucked right before that. And one of the things I also talked to these guys, I actually don't have to put nearly in the work for mobility to keep what I put all the hard work in to get it. But what I do have to do is there's certain things, for example, really deep range of motion squats, and not when I play with my son, I sit in that position, which I couldn't do that 10 years ago. I couldn't do that. So as long as I do things like that, I don't have to get down to do the 90/90s and a lot of the mobility work that I had to do to get to there. So in a sense, I am still training them, I'm keeping myself, but I'm not having to, I used to have to dedicate time. Like I'm gonna spend 30 minutes of just mobility work every day for a couple of years to get to that place. But I still have to, there's certain exercises I just have to do occasionally, that maintain that stability strength and mobility and range of motion, and it maintains. I don't find myself having to put that much effort either there. I think it's because you probably train. I find, I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I find training has always been exponentially more effective for improving range of motion than any mobility work has. Like doing training with great ranges, it's so much more effective. - Well, because real mobility is the strength. - Yeah, it's range of motion with strength. It's gorgeous. - You can't have one of those. - So that's what I mean. So as long as I do some movements that encourage that, that I couldn't do before, I'm good. - Yeah. - Most of the memories, it's also remarkable. Look at just what we know about it. It's crazy. You build 10 pounds of muscle. It could take you a year to, average person gets to come in here to build it. They could lose it all and then gain it back in a month. I mean, it's just crazy how fast I can do that. - I did a thing last year, two years ago now. Two years ago, I did a GLP one thing. So I intentionally took GLP one for six months. So we're on there three to six months. - Three months. - Yeah, three six months. And my goal was to take my trainer brain out of it. So I wasn't gonna go try and hit my protein and take, train really hard. Like I was like, I'm gonna do this. - Let's see what happens. - I'm gonna do this. - Yes, I wanna be a normie. And if I'm not hungry, I'm not gonna eat. If I don't feel like training, I'm not gonna try. I'm just gonna take this thing and let it. And boy, was it, I don't know if you've messed with GLP ones at all, but. - I did 30 days. - Oh bro. I mean, I could go a day or two and not eat. And just not think about it. But then I was a Zampaker, what'd you do? - I did, I did, I did a Zampatite. - Yeah. - But I tell you what, like I, the fatigue and, I mean, it was, I would, there was days where I had to choose like either to get a couple exercises in or help my wife around the house, 'cause I couldn't do both. I didn't have enough fuel and energy to do both. Anyways, lost a ton of weight. Damn near half of it was muscle. So I think I lost, I think I lost a total of 25 or 30 pounds somewhere around there. Half muscle, half, half fat. - Yeah. - And then I, then I documented on YouTube training to get it back. And of course everybody thought I was lying. And I mean, I did the, the Dexascam before to show everything like that. But I mean, I put on 25 pounds of muscle or 20 times. What was it Dylan? 22 in the first month? 30, 30 days, 22 pounds of muscle. And not even a muscle memory. - And not training crazy. Like slowly scaling. - Totally. - I mean, I was like doing two lifts a day, moderate intensity volume. I scaled the intensity volume over time. But we're not training like an animal like that. And I put on 20, something pounds of muscle in, in three. And changed no other variables. I mean, obviously I'm eating because I was hungry and off of it. But I mean, it was a cool, it was a cool experiment. - I ran low dose, but a true type with 30 days. Just 'cause I wouldn't like have an opinion without, I'm like, I gotta see what this actually feels like. It's crazy. It's crazy. You don't even think about food. I have a client who's a surgeon who uses it as a focus aid. 'Cause he's like, you know, I didn't realize how much talk I have in the back of my mind thinking about food or whatever, he just goes away. So not in surgery, I can just be completely focused. It's like in Neutropic. It's like it's interesting inside. - Yeah. There's studies right now on GLP-like peptides. So this is in the class of that for alcohol abuse. - Yeah. - It works. - Yeah. But so it's really interesting, it's a very interesting space to look at right now. That's pretty well. - There's also been some feedback though that people are becoming, I forget the name of the word exactly, but it's basically loose sexual desire as well. - Yeah, oh yeah. - You've seen that? - I've heard of that. So here's what I wanted. Here's what I would want. - Passion in general, sort of. - Yeah, so here's what I would want to like parse out. 'Cause I know it acts on the, however we perceive, you know, heed in his thick value in our brain. So there's definitely that part of it. But I want to know, I want to separate people who are eating adequately and people are just way under eating. 'Cause you just eat no calories. You're gonna lose your desire for sex. You're not gonna be as happy. - That's the argument that I should have. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, that's the argument that I would make too, Sal, because I mean, this is what I mean by what I felt. Like I remember vividly, many days of being so depleted and coming home from just podcasting. I'm like, we do anything, right? Come home, you know what I mean? I know I need to get a lift in. And the whole idea is getting the garage to call us. And it's like, but also I want to play with my kid and I want to help my wife. And it's just like, I'm a choose. - And might be one of those things where it's not the GLP, but the fact that you're eating nothing. So I'd like to see that. I'd like to see people, it's like when people do the keto flu, it's like, well, it's not the keto flu, you just need sodium. And then suddenly it goes away. Like I'd like to see when people actually eat adequately on a GLP if you still see people who are like, I'm losing desire for things. My guess is that it's mostly that. We actually trained a group, 50 people on GLP's. And one thing that was crazy was how many of them were plateaued. - Oh my god. - 'Cause they lose a lot of weight, but their calories got so low that they're like, where are you gonna go? You have 1200 calories. And you got 30 pounds to go. - Man, so I had a client, built with me for maybe two months. He messaged me three days ago. He was, hey, just wanted you to know that I've been ramping up my red or true tide dose. I'm now at 10 milligrams twice a week. And I was like, whoa. And he's like, but I'm still getting some more cravings. Can I go higher? And that's crazy. So like people are using it, like this guy specifically is using it to eradicate any thought of food. I was like, man, what about just like, you know, you don't eat, you eat once a day, maybe. Like it's crazy how people are just sort of stuck in this rut or this belief system. Like this is gonna solve all my problems. And if it's not doing it adequately, they need to take more, like hold on, man. That's not how this stuff, how I would categorize this stuff for sure. - The other side too, I share this on the podcast with the guys. So I have some people in close to me that are taking it too. Now, even though I took my trainer brain out of my whole experiment, I, what I didn't take into account for is just, I've still got years of good healthy behaviors around food, exercise. And so when I would taste something that wasn't healthy for me, I would like, yeah, was bland. I didn't like it. And I realized, I recognized that, man, I'm eating so low that a nutritious plate sounded good to me. And so I craved actually the better foods. And I, and I, so even though I wasn't doing anything to go out my way, I still actually preferred chicken and rice and real, like healthy stuff. When I see other people who don't have that connection at all, I literally, they're just eating less, they're eating twice a day, but it's fire cheetos. And then they're on their toilet, just fucked up. And not connecting the dots or like, you know that that's what's doing that, right? - They don't get it. - They still don't, and they're losing weight because they're only eating, you know, 800 calories of fire cheetos. And they're paying for it on the toilet all day long. And then still going back to it, it's like, whoa, that's crazy that this thing is working. It's keeping them from eating hardly anything, but even the signal of you are f'd up every time you do that is not enough. - It's a reward, right? I'm doing good, so I'm gonna reward myself with cheetos. - And while I was asking them, 'cause I remember, 'cause I remember also doing this, ice cream has always been my kryptonite, and I had some of the freezer doing the jupy one, and Katrina would be asking me, she's like, do you not even want, I'm like, no, I have no desire for it. And she's like, have you tried it? I'm like, no, I haven't, 'cause I haven't wanted it. She's like, well, I wonder if you tried it if you'd feel different. I'm like, okay, and I'll try it one day. So I decided to go in there, and I took a bite of it. I'm like, wow, that's the first time my life ever took a bite of ice cream, and I didn't taste anything. And I had no desire for another bite. So what's, and I asked this person, it's anything I'm like, does it taste good to you? When you have, and she's like, no. And I'm like, and you're still doing it. So there's not even the reward system of this taste good. It's more of that, they just have a habit of that shit that I still gravitate towards that, even though it doesn't have those, it's not hitting those pleasure signals. - I think we're gonna do a GLP one, just 'cause people are just the way that they're gonna be used. They're just gonna take them. And I think what we're gonna do is come out of an obesity epidemic and just go face first into a frailty epidemic. That's what I think that's gonna happen. 'Cause you're seeing people reporting on dead-to-the-e issues. - Yeah, 'cause you're starting to see people reporting osteopenia, you know, because they're not straightening, they're not eating enough, the protein takes low, and they're just losing weight, and they're losing muscle, and they don't have a lot of muscle lose to begin with. And so. - And the big thing that I'm seeing is the digestive issues. People's microbiome being dysfunctional, like they don't. - The utility slows way down. Right? So that's gonna be a huge problem. That's gonna lead to like a whole slew of whether it be small intestinal buttoil of growth, whether it be autoimmunity. Like, excuse me, some issues coming out of digestive tract. - Well, and it ties back to it. So part of why it's slowing it down like that. Those foods like fire chews don't digest well. And then they get that feedback. What I found quickly was like, "If when I was eating good food, I didn't have any of that issue." As soon as I ate out of bounds, like, "Oh, just factoring." - Do you think a lot of people aren't talking about either is the rise in resting heart rate. - 25% I saw. - That was a Zempek, which is extremely high. - Yeah, and it's higher with red or true tide it looks like. - Really? - Yeah, because of the triple agonism. And so with some people reporting as insomnia, elevated heart rate, a little bit of anxiety from it. So that'll be interesting as more people use it to see what's going on. But you can predictably, based on the data, get a rise in resting heart rate from just from going on one. - Yeah, I saw that in a Zempek, I haven't seen it in red or true tide. But to be honest, I haven't been looking. So I'll look more closely. - Yeah, yeah. - So we'll see what happens. - We'll see what happens. - Have you looked at genetic considerations, whether it be around GLPs or specifically help, and this is interesting to speak about your friend with the Cheetos. There's a lot of different genetic considerations on how people perceive food. I leveled the brain, leveled the palate, I leveled the digestive tract. There's a whole different level, number of levels that so if you run somebody's genetic panel, you can see how they're going to respond to food. You can see levels of impulsivity. You can see they may have low leptin levels. You can see very specific things. And so I think that's going to be the next level of precision when it comes to these GLPs. We're going to start looking at your genes. It's like, hey, this is the exact mechanism by which you're going to fail. So if I look at somebody's genetic profile, I can see maybe this person has a lower sensitive palate to fats. So when they eat cashews or peanut butter, they're going to want to eat more of it. Because we have a different level of satiation in the mouth. Some people get a little bit and they're good. Some people are going to weight all of it. And you can literally see the genes for that. So like, okay, and then you ask the question, like, hey, do you have a tendency to overeat when you eat fats? Yes, I do. Great. We can see that happen genetically. And we can say, like, okay, this is where this person's mostly like this breakdown. Yeah, that's the next level. of precision that's, we're not far off. Like I think we can get a pretty good insight. - I mean, imagine that for coaching, how cool that would be just to know to have that insight. - So we do that now, that we shifted to coaching about 18, maybe 24 months ago now. So we work with a team of geneticists and everyone, the insights are remarkable 'cause it just allows you to be so much more effective. - Yeah, of course. I mean, we teach our trainers this. One of the keys of being a great coach and trainer is the ability to forecast for your client. - Right. - You know, can you tell them the hurdles and challenges that they're going to have before they have it? Huge difference. - Versus-- - Playing their challenges. - Yeah. - You've been having both of them telling you. - Right, right, right. Because I mean, otherwise you just start training this person, then they have those things, and then it's like, they're blaming the not lack of results or the struggles they're having on you. It's like, well, as if I tell my client that, hey, listen, this is what's gonna happen. - We four, you're gonna feel like-- - Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna increase calories initially, and you're gonna feel this way. You're gonna be holding a little bit more water. It's gonna, scale is gonna go up. That's all normal. Then you're gonna see, so if you can tell them what's gonna happen before it happens, your ability to coach them through that process, you're gonna-- - Yeah, do you actually allow you to identify the constraint? So like everyone, you know, Sal's gonna die, you're gonna die, Joseph's gonna die, I'm gonna die. We're gonna feel, we're gonna feel a different constraint along the way, right? Constraint may be, I'm hungry. Constraint may be, I don't wanna eat. Maybe the constraint is of cravings. And there's a wide different array of how we would be constrained in a diet or any type of approach to fitness plan. So looking at your genes, I can literally look at everyone's genes and go, this is gonna be your constraint. This is where you're gonna struggle. And if we can identify in advance, we can also change it. We can also plan for it. So like, I don't know exactly where Adam's gonna struggle. And so some people are gonna be prone to anxiety. Some people are gonna have high level baseline adrenaline. So they're gonna be fidgety and they're gonna wanna, they're gonna wanna cheat on their diet to compensate for the adrenaline. And we can literally see so much at the level of genes. It's very cool. - Very cool. Very interesting. - It's always a good time having on the show, De. It's always a lot of fun, my friend. - Yeah, it's been too long. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We hope that we got to do this again soon, not wait eight years. - Yeah. - And drag you guys down to the top of it. - Yeah, I know, I think we're-- - We're so far, that's a thing. - We'll save you some trailer. - Yeah, we'll save you some trailer. - Yeah, I don't know. - I don't know. - Maybe 10 years of just on and off, on and off, in the way that I would solve it when you get real bags, I'd have to fast, and then I'd have to do all these other things. - And so it was just very limited by it. - You'll never believe what it was. I had to treat myself for parasites. - And once I did the treatment for parasites, it fixed my gut issues. - So when that got better, I mean, I was able to absorb what I could eat and I could eat normally. - That made a huge difference. And then hormone replacement therapy, on top of it made a big difference. We got tested, somebody offered to test us for freaks that went to work with us. My testosterone came back in the floor, and I don't know, it was in the floor, but once I got that up, it was great. - That's right, you were on hormone therapy when we all first met him. - No, no. - I had gut health issues and maybe low testosterone back then. I had no idea. So hormone therapy fixed my gut and then anodrol. Those are the three things that it is. (laughing) - That's our milligrams, we're trying to leave that. (laughing) - That's it, it made a huge difference. The gut health thing alone, probably 15 pounds of muscle, just from my gut health alone. It was such a big deal. That's it. - And would you get parasites? - Huh? - Like traveling? - Who knows, dude. You know, I think, you know, that's a great topic. I think, I don't think it's obviously, it's not super common in the sense that you're not gonna eat. - I thought it is if you eat sushi on a river basis. - Well, what I was gonna say is, you live in a modern society, and you've been eating raw vegetables or sushi for 20 years. The odds are you've probably got a parasite at some point. So I don't think you need to do a, I don't think you need to treat yourself for parasites every six months or every year. But I think the average person encountered parasites at some point. - Of course, yeah, of course. - So I hate tested? - Are you just think the protocol ain't even felt better. - So my wife got tested, she had a parasite, and they're like, well, you guys are married, so you probably got the parasite too. So I wanted a protocol with her and it was like, but I was like miraculous. It was crazy. It was a period of healing afterwards, so it wasn't like right away I'm better, but I could tell I was a lot better. And then the months afterwards, it was like, oh man, huge difference. And that easily account for 13 to 15 pounds of muscle, no problem. - Wow. - Just from that. Now he eats eight times a day and trains like crazy. - No, my train's not crazy. - It's a fecifalty, but that's it, man. But is it specifically goal-oriented or you're just sort of doing it to have fun? - I love it, I love it, but I'm mental. So it doesn't matter what direction I'm going, it's gonna get mental sometimes. If I'm trying to get big and we get obsessed, if I'm trying to get shredded and we get obsessed, if I'm trying to get strong, I'll get obsessed. So I think I'll toggle between the three of those, keep myself in check a little bit. - Mine out. (laughing) - It's my last to your life. - I mean, so that's, and then I have access to peptides all day long. So, you know, I'm the best, the worst guy I've ever accessed. - I mean, he's the best on the worst. He's the best on the worst, 'cause he's our guinea pig. - Who are you guys using for peptides? - He's using everything. - Right now, what am I using? - I'm not using that. - Ask what he has not used. What have you not used? - I've tried them all. I've tried most of them, but. - Yeah. - I love BPC. - I saw your name on the seeds website. I was like, oh, fellow. - I'm gonna be speeding there. I'm gonna be speaking, excuse me. Are you gonna be going? - No. - I'll be speaking there. I love BPC and thymus and beta. Love those. Combine those together. - Just for like inflammation. - You know, I get a different quality the way my muscles look. I recover better. Maybe the upregulation of growth hormone receptors. - Yeah. - I'm not sure. - No, no, I'm on all the hormone optimization. So growth hormone testosterone thyroid. Testosterone is the max that they'll allow me to take, which is 200. Growth hormone is one to two I use a day thyroid 120 milligram, 120 of the armor every morning. So it's like the whatever, the optimization. - Do you guys ever have Dr. Terry, her talk on the podcast? - No. - So he's the head of an international hormone society. He's been on my show. He's a great authority in hormones. He's the same. He's in his mid 60s. And he says, every man should be taking testosterone, growth hormone, thyroid. At least he said probably oxytocin as well. Every man. He's like, otherwise why? Why are you looking? (laughing) - What are you doing? - Yeah, well, I feel like Dr. Seeds is here to occur that. - I mean, it improves the quality of your life. I think if you're not, look, I'll give you an example of someone who doesn't need testosterone. Doug comes back, his testosterone levels come back 11,200 naturally. - Wow. - Yeah. - Naturally. - So, yeah. And he's almost a raging beast. So, he says, yeah, the healthiest one at all of us. And he doesn't take any of that stuff. - But one of the issues too is I'll get blood work done. And it comes back and the doctor's like, man, you've got the best looking blood work I've ever seen. So that just makes me feel cool. I just take more peptides then. I guess I'm okay. I'll wait till something comes back. Red flag, I'll change it. - That's good, man. - Yeah, it's good stuff. - Yeah. - Good shit, dude. Yeah, good having you, bro. - Thanks, Paul. - Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. - If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballac, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now, plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is MindPump.