Sprechen wie ein CEO: Der Mann, der DAX-Vorständen das Reden beibringt

Welcome to Business Class. I am Leo Ginsberg and today I am Dr. Stefan Wachtel, guest. He is executive coach for the top manager and politica. He prepares DAX, company representatives for their most important conversations. We talk about his life, communication and about how each of us can talk via a CEO or president. Disclaimer. The content of this podcast contains no purchase recommendation of the editorial. Actions, cryptocurrencies and investments are basically connected to risk. Hello Stefan. Hello. Stefan, before we start talking about the big topic of communication, I want to start with you. You were in prison once. I was in prison for a long time. That was in a republic, which is called the German Democratic Republic. That's where it all happened. Someone was there for five sentences. What did you say? Do you remember? "The planes are in murder. We have pacifists. Those are elections. So five critical sentences over the state." And of course that doesn't fit well. I was also in a military prison. We were in the military time. They didn't love it at all. And there were laws that prohibited that and considered punishment. How old were you? 20 years old. And something like that. Of course. I have a few friends today. They were about the same age. They were in prison for five sentences for a year and a half. And that always happens when a society is in a war situation. And the GDR was constantly in this war situation outside. It's the class enemy. You have to fight. You can't get rid of weak opinions. You have to sanction them somehow. If we briefly talk about this time, how long were you there? And if you remember back now, what do you have in your head? What pictures do you see? So these are pictures of how you can see them from the TV. Long floors of interrogation. When you go up stairs, when you are locked up, you get a little boat and marmalade. And then you have a bridge on which you lie, just like you imagine it. How did you get this time? I was afraid of coming back to prison. And I think that's the worst thing that can happen to someone. I went away from the GDR and didn't want to have any more fears. I find it interesting, because you were in prison for rhetoric. Yes, rhetoric. And today you have to talk about your work. You worked with 16 day-to-day positions, two ministers were advised by you and that would ... Of course, 16 day-to-day companies were more than 16, but ... Yes. But I think that's really interesting. Would you say that this time in prison also influenced you to go this way, which you went today? So that you say rhetoric communication is, so to speak, my stekenfahrt? Yes, definitely. At the same time, the communication for me, also if it is effective, we can talk about it. I have developed some effective methods, because communication is also a point, always on the point, something more pointed, something more effective, something more pointed, with more until and then for life, I don't know if you've ever experienced something like that. Then you just have more until and bite through better and had a little more, more until simply. Did you say that as an extra, because I told you this morning that I had a bite through the mouth? Yes, exactly. That might fit below ... Maybe I ... Maybe there are my fears. Yes, maybe you have more until then. Yes, for all listeners and listeners, I went this morning from my nightclub and somehow bit through the mouth, my pants bit up and so I came to the interview, but yes, it happened. Authentic. Authentic. Yes. Before we talk specifically about how to talk, okay, you were in prison with 20 for half a year. What would you say, what is your most important station? Up to that point, where you said that's okay, I am now, so to speak, executive coach for top manager, top politicians and help him to express himself better. After that, I also studied speech science, I probably studied in this whole market one of the most solid courses, four years full-time in speech and conversation. That was still in the GDR, then I had a professional offer, I lived a year from reciting and from right-wing poems. What does that mean? A little bit, exactly. I'm a reciter, I moved around and did recitations like that, and I was able to live quite well from that. Nevertheless, at some point out of these reasons, because you don't wear that well if you are a free spirit and thinks about it and doesn't overdo everything. Short to the poems, do you have a parade? I have a parade, maybe I would give one at the end, let's see. Okay, that's a good teaser. I'm getting up. I still have a lot in my head and we can maybe at the end, actually I would have to introduce you to the German soldiers in the east of Brecht. That fits to the present time. Okay, that means you had a drink, that was also a bad time, right? It was always this threat, if you live in a society and then we have to be very careful that it doesn't come back, that if you live in a society where you always have to look at what you are allowed to say, what you are allowed to not say, what you are allowed to say, what you are allowed to not say, what you have to do to not fly out and you don't keep that freedom for a long time and that's why I am taken aback, like so many nights cooked through the forest, under the danger of life in the freedom and democracy. I am a passionate democrat, so I would give something for freedom. I just talked to my friend Janss and Josef Liefers and talked about freedom in advance. I think he's making a book about it. We Osis have, I think, a special relationship to this topic and then I am taken aback, then I was lucky, I had some protection, my later doctor father was a coach and trainer in ALD and ZDF. I did courses for ALD and ZDF moderators in six, seven years at ALD and ZDF and other television and radio stations and I learned a lot and at some point I worked with them who have something to say and I don't want to insult them now, but journalists collect information, sweat them out, prepare them, open them up, they are interesting, give them more and the ones who, I wanted to answer with the employees. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not the questions. That's also completely fair, I mean, our job is to report and we report exciting people, but actually we shouldn't be the exciting people. Yes, yes. We see the audience. Some of them, you are on the way, are exciting people because they also have their own heads, because they also have their own ideas, own formats and so on. That's good, but briefly, I wanted to work with the other side, it worked. I have made three years of training for pilots in between five colleagues. First we said, my God, there are people in uniform with such a strange voice, because I was in contrast to the journalists I had trained before, that's not true, that was a class of people, it was a lot of fun and I learned a lot that we can still talk about it. How do you build something? How do you start? How do you stop? If you talk to people in crisis situations. In what time? That was ... That's been here for a long time. That was '90s. That's already ... That's before '90s. Before '90s. Exactly. I was good at that. You could fly in the cockpit at that time, I did that a lot and then I saw at the top like in all planes, by the way, such a little device is on the right, in all planes, there is an altitude above the sea level, they all want to fly higher, less fuel, more speed. And that's for me, for many years, a metaphor in my book, executive mode is also a metaphor for, by the way, for, if you want to contribute a little bit of usefulness for your employees, a metaphor for argumentation. If you come from above, you have it easier, from above you have more impact, from values and principles, rules, then you can do more than if you put a screw on the machine room and want to solder something to the screw. I learned a lot about structure and flight height. Yes, especially as a pilot, maybe you had that back then, before starting this advice, you thought, okay, he's just a pilot, but above all, people are afraid of getting the worst out of it, so when the panic breaks out. Yes, you can look at that very well, for example, in Joseph Liefers in the talk show "My Pet Eleanor 6" by such a 26, last year, he brought such a wonderful example as a metaphor for Corona. What does a pilot do, the pilot, if it is in a crisis situation, the pilot has to look at the passengers in the best fashion, he has to calm down, he has to keep them together, he has to say, that we can do it, he must not split, he must not divide the passengers well and badly, not the solid and unsolid, he must not split, that is such a task and a journalist must also do that, he must not split too much, he must make it interesting, but he must not point too much, and he must not point to a top manager, he must not point to a top politician, and we are already talking about the words, which words do they have to use, in which order, that they reach what they want. That means, after the pilot training, you started to advise the top politicians and managers? That was an interesting time, because there was no longer a new market, I had the seven-year TV interview, one of the founders of the so-called media training in Germany, after this Klaus-Fünrich-Kastoff, you no longer know him with the big ears of the WDR, I then did a lot of this media training, I accompanied seven Klaus-Fünrich-Kastoff, I learned a lot for the financial communication, I then stayed there in this individual work of top managers, who were really hidden by individuals back then, no one knew that he had the understanding of coaching, today it's a bit different, thank God, it would be strange if no one... It's completely clear that you learn something, there are people from X-Mikinze, XBCG, Bailen, these are learning machines, from which they come. Before we talk about what you bring with you, if you have to deal with so many successful and exciting people on the level, what do you think, what do these people agree on? They agree that they burn for their job, there is a political helper in this class, which I have experienced, I have advised so far, they agree that they burn for the job, burn for the task, they want to achieve that, they want to achieve that, otherwise the top managers tell you, you have to get out of here, it happens too. And they have already said, they learn, twice a year I said, today I had 1B, twice a year I had 1B, otherwise I always have 1A, 1A always wants to learn, there are people who say, Mr. Wachtel, they have a coach there, give me the number, I can learn from him, I have a woman in Hamburg, then I have one in London, then I have a coach in London, that means they try to learn as much as possible, very exciting in the organization, that is, well, Peter, or Dr. Matthias, or Dr. Müller, he can't say anything, he's not right, he's up there because he can say something every day, the top managers are learning the fastest and I can only advise everyone, now our customers, who are watching now, to take everything that is only possible. How does it look normally for you, so probably also a lot of recommendations, I can imagine on such a level, you can just take us with you, there is a CEO coming to you or his team and says, Mr. Wachtel, we had a meeting in three weeks, an important conversation in front of a main meeting, can you support them or how does it look? Exactly, that's what it looks like, it's about half of them, it's the team, on the assistant assistant, sometimes the communication people, and the other half is the person himself, who says, I heard from them, can we call briefly, I have a short call, and then I understand what kind of people that is, if the people are a little longer, then I try to keep the call, and if they know the BCG people, then I know they do it in the pyramid, it takes three minutes, you know, you know, and then we understand each other and then we start, I even have a case in which I haven't called in front of people, but only with the assistant, and then it starts, and that's either the case like you, that's the most common, on the 17th we have something, on the 19th we have something very important, this year we also have our thing, something special, the last time it fell in and so on, and the second is prophylactic, I don't mean that someone comes into a new role, and the classic is, there is a communication director, he says, we have a new financial proposal, he's coming into the new role, he doesn't really have to, and I've experienced an exciting case, he really doesn't really have to, he has to be honest, he will probably never do it right, and I said, wait a minute, I usually do it for two days, then how they did it for two days, and if he doesn't get it, then he doesn't belong there, he has to leave, and he did it, of course, expert, learnable, learn funny, he has exactly the right methods, he has it on and today you read a very good one in the press. How expensive is your service? Very clear, very important, that you agree, it's a very important principle, with advice, then there is a lot of, what the honor is about, it is very important, you have heard it a few times when you ask, yes, you can come to me if you want, if it's earlier, if it's a bank, you have to be less, the times are also over, so I tell you, I've been dead for 25 years, at least 30 years, very strict, not just honor, they are in the course of time, of course, because of the experience, because of the efficiency, it can be said briefly, it's on my agb, in all my emails there is a link to the agb, that is non-executive, 4383, executive, so company agreement, with which you spend a day, 6732, and sometimes I do something in the middle, that's 5555. And how do you get these unaccounted numbers? They have been unaccounted at some point, from 4500 DMG, and then on Euro-accounted and then always with the inflation rates, and then with a ratio that the agency made, now I forgot, that's why they are so strict and unaccounted, and maybe not even bad, then it is the company, please do not complain about the monorail, why is it high, quite clearly, that's a credo of a good consultant, it has to come out more than there is paid. Especially if the number is so unaccounted, then we also discover that there is something behind it. Because we say 4500, yes, 2900 sounds somehow so strange, 2990, yes, there are few discussions, the clients know that it creates a lot of value, and the value is not just my monorail, but the time, the working time that is in it, which is often still higher, and most are recommendations, and the recommendation is so decided that there is nothing to discuss there. Sometimes there is a pitch, sometimes you have to, I think that's okay, you have to look at it, we have three, which one do we take from the three, it has also become very rare for me lately. And runs a good business? Very good. So I have this month, so it's so good that I'm not very young anymore, that I could say, yes, a little less would not be bad. How much do you work the week like that, actually? It's over the last 27 years, always the same, between 5 and 11 days, always the same. In? Month, month. Oh, okay. And 4, so 4 times in the past, between 5 and 11 times, 7 times, 6 times, 8 times, 9 times, now it's 11, then again. And the rest of the time free, so to speak? That looks so free, I can write the books, but that also needs strength, so like I work, not everyone does that, so I work, it's 8-9 hours, and after such a day I don't know what I'm called anymore, and where I live, and I think you have to prepare the day too. You have to prepare, I have to read to you, I only have half the knowledge, that we work together, we have half the knowledge, I work for all industries, because of this, we can talk about principles right away, because of competition, I can't have two simultaneously from the same industry, so not one investment banking, there and one there, but always just one, and that means I have to work in different industries, and I have to equip myself with halftime. Then let's talk about what actually makes a good speech, and that's exactly my first question, in simple words, what would you say, what is a perfect speech? There is no perfect speech, there is no grammar, there is a right or wrong in the autobiography, there is no rhetoric, there is only, you ask the listeners, you try to get feedback, question and effect, you can do everything you want, I'm lucky that I often have the chance to write a whatsapp in the evening and say, well, thanks, it worked today, that's at a very low level, I would like to do a bigger study, the cost of money and time, I can't, how do you get the effect, how do you do that? I am a mechanic, I am, yes, this deep training for four years, I said at some point, there are four levers, the one, I'll start from the bottom, I'll start with a little teaching, a little utility, history and utility, we'll start from the very bottom, where I grew up, as a speech teacher, breathing, the mouth, the mouth has opened, so from bottom to top, that works for me, not necessarily, you have to, and politicians too, you have to go from top to bottom, and I still start with a different staging, there is the so-called body language, and the point is the so-called body language, there is nothing, there is no body language, nonsense, you have to, I mean, it sounds, because the body, it's a nonsense, the body has no language, that means, we don't see each other now, but I'll give you the arm, that doesn't mean that I'm closed, neither habitually nor situational, it's nonsense, because I thought so, there are these very "light to me" things, or in this psychological way, there was a lot of entertainment, Semmy Molcho, he has a great, wonderful value, very, very entertainment, the observable, empirically observable value goes against zero, that doesn't exist, there are a few strikes, good body tension, look at Markus Lanz, he sits very curiously on his chair, Markus always moves his leg forward, because he needs a middle body tension to put the people on the chair, and you have to gesticulate well, that's it, then comes speech as a second lever, where I come from, voice, you can do voice training, breaks, melody, you can do everything, but it takes too long, they are no foam players, they have such content guys, me too, so we don't have so much to do there, we don't have the time, then we have a third point, now it will be exciting, also for journalists and journalists, speech, the third point from below, staging, speech, words and sentences, and there is a lot in the eyes, especially in the German culture room, in French, probably, both are cultural gods, that's an example, yes, this industry is described as lyrical, low-grabbing mounds together, low-grabbing mounds are depressed or thrown, strategic challenges are made, key letters, success is aimed at our actions, that is then so vionneca, it is, so to speak, such a lyrical written by the speech writers, and this lyrical can no one prefer God, and then I get into the game, such as I am, that's why it's important, because they break this language, this fairy-tale industry lyrical and fight for it, the next point is structure, it will be even more exciting, in which order I say that, and there are, you know, the journalistical pyramids and there are the McKinsey pyramids and the pyramid principle, this, in this model is often worked out, that is the most important, first of all, and then there are the elites around, and the best model is of course to turn the pyramids around, my book is called "English Reversed Pyramid", you start widely, with flight, you remember that, with flight, and from the aircraft with flight, start with access, access to people, flight, access, altitude, meat and then punch, and then target, and that's something that I have developed for 15 years, very, very easy, very clear, always works, the fourth point from below, structure, that is decisive, that if I want to convince myself, in the right structure, I act, and have the right plans, and the most important lever is up there, in which film am I? We can do that in a minute. What do you mean by that? In which film, so I am a mechanic, I am also very much a mechanic, I have these levers, these skills, someone speaks well, someone writes well, someone stands well, someone looks well, everything falls off, but you know that, when people are in the wrong film, or you know for yourself too, when we are in the wrong film, then it doesn't work, then you can still speak so well, still have such a great text, still so wonderful Q&A, still so wonderful charts and self-explanatory charts, everything is possible. What was such a wrong film from an example? Sure, I then started at some point together, in which people from the wrong end come to the right film, the wrong film is the one, in which we were raised in Germany, in the Erbsenzähler-explairbear-modus. We want to explain things, we want to fully say everything like in a monthly exam, and then we also want to say it correctly, answer the whole sentence Leo, then we also want to say it a little more strictly complicated, then it should still be compressed, everything except seven charts, then it should be in pyramids, then we should in the end still be authentic, so Peter should be Peter, although he should actually play his role, and these are points that you can imagine on the left side, and I then said what is the opposite of how you can come into this effect mode, by doing it differently, not authentic, but a role, not pyramids, but charts, not completely, but choice, not complicated, but simple, not compressed, but inserted, so 12 points, and I call it executive mode, it's just going into English, the book is also going to be everywhere in Singapore, in Taiwan, in Barcelona, in Paris, it's going into the world, I'm a little proud of it. You're right, it can be anyone. These two points, there are mechanics, mechanical lifting, wonderful, but the most important thing in the end is someone in the right film, and I bring them, make a small laundry, then bring the clients in these right films, so that they can easily make a choice, which means they use them. If we have listeners here who are not yet CEOs or ministers, let's say the next few days we have a presentation on the work, we have to do a pitch, we have to imagine a new product, maybe have a meeting before the lecture, what would be the easiest tips that you can give them now? Yes, it's hard to give some tips as quickly as possible, but there are recurring problems, which we always call Peter or Sabine, who actually have not much to do with Peter and Sabine, which are quite structural, these are and again this lever, which you put in a bad text, that will be indisputable for them or they write, it will be indisputable for Q&A, second, it will be when the content is prepared at all, they will be prepared in the wrong way, like pyramids, because former journalists think of pyramids and then prepare their bosses and their bosses a pyramid for them, although they actually have to talk about a writer. These are structural things, so rather talk in a writer than in pyramids, rather get access, get people in, come from a larger flight height, come further and come to a few seats at the point, then take a break, then come back to a few seats at the point, we could, for example, play one minute Obama, can you take it to the podcast or half a minute is enough, two, three judges, how successful people talk and then it's about the charts, if someone keeps a presentation, there are often charts that are pre-read, full-time, self-explanatory with action titles, with a few garnishes, maybe as much as possible, a few pictures and a Mickey Mouse, that's not all about who you talk to well and that's why I often come up with the charts or do workshops on how the charts from pre-read to speech support can be, because with bad charts you have an iron ball on your head, you can't create any effect and the most important thing is then make a plan for the simple, many times it's called, then you know that, then you see it, then it develops, then you don't know how the moderator asks, then you know Mr. Mayer, and then a lot goes wrong when people talk without a plan and my suggestion is to follow up on the charts as much as possible, as I myself have a few words to say here in front of me, for me personally, the lyrics are in stricter form. And then you would always start off a little bit on a meter level or have a picture of the example. So access, as much as possible, people talk, the cheapest we forget, we Germans are also one of those points, in this brainwashed executive mode, we are created in a sense, a discussion should be in a sense. How terrible. There is the homosexual rhetoric better, which is personal, that is, we have to, among others, from left to right, expert to executive, we have to go from in a sense to personal, that is, you have to speak to people. Name, I think you have sometimes a town hall, all hands or something. All hands are like many, many. We have to talk to people with names, we often forget. Then people are called third person, our employees are our highest good. Then they are made the worst mistakes, because people don't talk badly or talk at all. How do you talk to them when there are around 400 people sitting there? At least Sabine with your team over there. And Peter with his people has also. You have already reached something. We know, if you listen to Steve Jobs, who I have seen him, when you hear him talk, an autistic guy, authentically, not even needed at all. In the role of the foreman, as we all know, let's think about. And the second thing is flight height. These are the ingredients of this rhetoric, which I'm talking about right now. Access, altitude, meat, punch. It's flight height. And these are values, rules, principles. That means, get ready. Not say what you did, but say what should always be done in general. And then we do it too. It sounds bad for Germans. To begin in general, in general, the special, the stranger, the owner, the known before the new. And journalists and and advice guys come and experts and scientists always come with the news first. It's not about the news, it's about the people. You have to build a roof with the people. Principles, values based on foreign policy. It was wonderful. It was brought from the U.S. Army. They had values. Kamala Harris. I analyzed the interviews. Trump Harris. Harris has always spoken of values. I didn't believe it. It has other reasons. But in any case, come from above, come from wide and then a few sentences and then on a target sentence. Punch. So, for example, Steve Jobs, as we all know, Apple makes the best notebooks on the planet. Access, as we all know, then Apple makes the best notebooks on the planet. Then meet MacBook and MacBook Pro, the standards in the industry. And then punch. Today, we are introducing a third kind of notebook. It's called the MacBook Air. That's the target sentence. That's what they all have in common. Well, that's what we would have probably said here. Welcome. Welcome. Today, we're going to present a more journalistic idea or presentation in a written handout. Executive summary first. Good day. Today we would like to introduce you to our beautiful notebook MacBook Air. It's very nice. We'll show it to you soon. It has a lot of features. I'll start. For example, the size. And then it starts and you have to stop at some point. You will be interrupted. That's the pyramid. That's information for you. You can do that with hard news. But not when you want to lock someone's dog behind the oven. Then you have to turn the pyramid around. That's a principle. I haven't found it, but I was the first one who came up with such a small method. What do you also ask me when politicians or business bosses keep important speeches and also have to answer crisis communication questions? Is lying okay sometimes when you have a speech? Lying is basically not okay. There are a few things that someone who acts politically decides to disappear. The pilot has to disappear again in order to stay in the meta. The pilot has to disappear so that the problem is very, very serious so that his staff can't calm down. The CEO has to possibly disappear so that this or that is very serious so that the employees are not too much to calm down. There are a few gray zones that are very painful and very critical. That's an ethical question. These boundaries between convincing, selling soap operas and manipulating propaganda are fleeting. The means are the same and everyone has to decide honestly how to deal with his communication, his job. But I would lie if it doesn't work. I don't know if it's a case where I would have helped to lie properly. But there are border cases in which we say, you can't say that. There the effects are floating, there is too much unrest in the house, that comes before. Did you ever experience something like that? So, it's probably in a career where you have told someone and then you saw the speech and thought, oh my God, that's not how we talked about it at all. And now he's going full time, he's in a completely different film and is now driving with 180 against the wall. Has it also been given, surely in these years and again, I have once told a prominent football coach who never knew that he had a rhetoric training. We prepare the thing before, I look at the press conference on Friday afternoon, we have prepared a 12-page lecture, such a basic speech, very, very well prepared. He sets himself up and says, only questions to the game, please. I think, oh God, that's what he's going to do now, only questions to the game. So, he wanted to be funny, somehow, his phone, because some guy said that only questions to the game. But then you saw how he took his notes slowly. And in the end, God said, he did very well. In the time of the picture, the one you knew, in the time of the picture, there was a very small photo to see of him and his placements. What would you say is how important it is, so to speak, to be your own person and be authentic, so to speak, because you have to be authentic, you don't have to be, you have to play without it. How do you see that? One of the most important points in this brainwashed executive mode, from left to right, is that it goes very, very roughly, simplified, from authentic to role. There are many clichés that we have in our heads. The HR department will probably get a lot of workshops offered, be authentic, lead and be authentic. It's a cliché, it's been around for thousands of years. In the antique world, in the antique nature, there was no such thing, no one came to the FDA, someone who was supposed to keep his wheels, he was supposed to be authentic. He drew a nice wall and put a few hooks on it, put it on a pedestal, insinuated something, so that it works well, so that it plays a role. And I wrote a book about it, "Be not authentic", that's what I scared the people, 11 years ago. I did it again and again twice, the art of being authentic, not to scare so many people anymore. I got a lot of enemies and got a lot of friends, because now it's being pluppeted, now you can see it all. No, an example, Leo from politics, Merkel, she had a few question marks, as we know, but she understood one thing, role. She wasn't the angel, she was Germany. She didn't like it that much, she never read it, she never took it twice, never. Very asexual, you go for a bit of a walk, you cook a soup, otherwise only for Germany. You can't beat someone like that, and that's exactly what it was. Four, five Chancellor candidates wanted to be authentic. Steuber, Steinmeier, Steinbrück, Schulz, in the end, Martin Schulz was the worst, everyone lost. Everyone wanted to be authentic and everyone lost, because they didn't understand why it was possible, that people play a role in the last word, otherwise I swear too much, you have to say something again. So role is the A and O. I think it's really exciting, I would say it was a strategy at the beginning. I think she understood early that this is a strategy, to address the whole of the great world and to show it to the public and everywhere. And not always to point out how she is authentic and how she is called and where she comes from. What would you say if someone heard me here or said I want to become a successful top manager at some point? What would you recommend as an authentic word? Should you then play a role in the office? Should you say I'm somehow a high performer? And that's my way and my personality doesn't matter. I nod the whole time, you can't see it, but I nod the whole time, exactly that. Who says very early, what is my role? How can I be worth my money? If someone is worth his money, then someone comes and says, oh, can Peter not lead the department? Why does Sabina not exist? I saw that yesterday. That was great how she came in, how she is great there. And that is a rhetorical effect and today he decides to address a rhetorical impact. An officer said to me, Mr. Wachtel, we have a new financial understanding there. On the 1st of November I saw the forester how he came in like this. You can say, my God, he saw how he came in. But it is also important how he came in. Oh, God, when March comes, we can't take him to March, the field is terrible. Exactly, that's important, because he doesn't play his role. He wanted to be authentic. He said, that's not how I am. I'm more like that. The really good questions are, Mr. Wachtel, what is my role in the morning? What would you say is how important it is to perform this whole thing, also optics, clothes, language, to be successful? The word I handle, I think it meets very well, is leadership effect, to the inside. So to work together, to organize work well together, like the Town Halls and to find friends outside, the press and the same. And there it is, there it is only about clarity. It is only about how Mr. Meier, how Mrs. Müller, when she goes there, what does she say, when does she hold her mouth? Can she organize herself there? Can she represent the company well, the passport-toto principle? It is at the end, leadership effect is at the end, almost only rhetoric. What does she say, when does she hold her mouth? How did he start there, did he recover? Did he understand what he wanted with his strange strategy there? Who does good in Germany? Hard to say, I've always been asked this, one has to say, here for example, Tim Höttges. Telecom. Who pays all the price for this topic, because he understood early what a role is, because the role also plays in his little social media videos, he has understood. Don't you also have leather jackets now? Yes, leather, possibly. I don't know him very well, I just sold him a price, the best manager appears. And that's a very exciting, great story. He also earned this price, I give this price, he nods to me, he's bigger than me, I nod down and say, I have to protest there, they wrote a book, I'm not authentic, I don't understand, I have to protest briefly. I said, Mr. Höttges, they just got the price, because they are not authentic, because they play a role, because they understand how they can create value. Yes, it's a life lie of the German manager, a life lie of the German HR, to have authentic managers, otherwise it doesn't even work. What does it mean authentically, so if we start thinking philosophically, authentically it doesn't mean, or does it mean, it doesn't have to be how I behave at home in Pyjama, only that I am the real Leo, because there can be different Leos, there is the Bureau Leo, there is something authentic. Hopefully, your employer decides, stays a track, does his role well, can you do a career, because you play a role, because you don't come to work in Pyjama. But these are basics, they unfortunately give a lot of pressure in the head. And the clients also have, I discuss these things three times a week, and the client comes to the door, we discuss this topic and they say, of course, I understand, I do, of course I understand. I don't have the bad hands, the bad ones say, no, no, no, I want to do it, I want to be authentic. Have you ever had a perfect speech in your head, a famous one, you already talked about it, but do you have a speech where you say, wow, everyone should look at YouTube, because that's really the best. I should be prepared for the question, I am not ashamed, there are so many, I work constantly on some speech, from which I say, oh, that was good, now we have done one again, it will be held over the morning next week, but now on her work, a garden that will be good, we did it last week. I can't say it, unfortunately, there are so many, I think, these books with the big speeches, there are the feedbacks of one of the federal presidents, there are the Sholz speech, which I don't think is the best, there he used a sentence and a word and with the newspaper turn, which his speech writers had already used for years, so there are a lot of clichés, I think everyone has his favorite speech, I can say how a good speech is made, from good writers and good jokes and good roles, and I have enough to do that. You have already told the anecdote with Tim Hötges, is there still a moment in your career where you can tell yourself, where you say, oh, that was funny, unexpected, interesting or also bad and sad, where you are with people. Yes, I had already said one case, someone who apparently didn't do it or you have constructed it, there must be another moment, I am so on discussion and trust and forget everything again, I really have the fixed record empty and two days later I have someone else again, I don't have it, but if it's a joke again, I'll say it. And when you listen to a speech where you haven't told yourself, how quickly do you notice that this is going in a good direction, that it is fair? Yes, very quickly, I can get it out very quickly, if it starts boring, I quickly have an idea, a prognosis about why it starts boring, what they wrote there, I have an idea about what the one, how the one prepared himself, what he had for writing, what he had for text, what he would have slept, and what I would do to not only the person, but the whole environment, the speech writers and the people who create the charts, to get a bit of the score, that they prepare something better for them. And I can often say very precisely what's going on there, we could analyze an example, maybe we have to do it again, I can say exactly at what point it went wrong. And often the same topics, at least one person is in the wrong movie, one person wants to be explainable on stage, you actually have to be an evangelist and so on. I just thought in parallel if I had heard such a speech, which I liked, and I can remember, in the community, in the synagogue in Darmstadt, was Michael Friedmann. And he had a speech, which was, I don't know, some sort of jubilee, and I was, I think, 16 or so, and I still know he had the speech, without cards, so nothing at all, which is also normal, right? Well, if you talk so well, not really so well. For over an hour, on the piece, without any notes, and all people, and me, with 16, I mean, attention, excitement, at that time it was kind of bad. I really went from the beginning to the end and then I saw that an hour has passed, and I just listened to a person, I thought, okay, crazy, he can do it. It's a good example, maybe that's what I would like to emphasize, one of the great shuntwerkers, rhetorical shuntwerker of the republic, but it's like, for example, in the Bible, in the Old Testament, that's what we have in common, in the Old Testament, and it was good, it was hard work. That everything that looks so light, that someone shudders from the ear, was put into the earring beforehand. This person had already talked so much, so many expressions, thought so well, arranged so well, sorted out so well on notes, sorted out in texts, that he could do it so easily. And there was also training, very, very likely, training, intelligence, desire for language and desire for influence. And now again my favorite topic, the target principle, desire for poetry. I often use it as a positive example for poetry. Could you tell us what the German CEOs are missing? Maybe something like that, we already have an example of poetry, most of them were drawn in this left-wing fashion, in this crafty explanation fashion, they were drawn in the wrong film. The Frenchman looks good, the Italian is good, the English speaks well, but the German is gray, right from the mouth and is polite and polite, but at least he has, and today he is very slow, polite and polite, a death sentence. That means, he is polite, he is dead, right? That's slowly changing, with such guys as me, who are all angry at the effect, because ritual effect is existential for a business value, for a party, for, you see, politicians, we don't want to say an example, how they all fall in, how they all fall into each other. So Merz has been asked, is this dirt work? Merz says, yes, this is dirt work, yes, somehow, how they all act in the wrong film, because they think they can just go there and just be so authentic. You have already been there for a long time, you have spoken to yourself, some people think you can work a little less, you personally, what do you think, what are you doing next year, do you do it further, do you have a plan, at some point, with your feet so high or ... Well, I'll go on like this, because it's been a lot of fun, I don't know, I hope it will last for a long time. I still have an interest, this is international, I want to see my methods internationalize, together with one, two colleagues, go into the world, so everything that comes in international, that has progress, I'll move everything else away. And secondly, I've been doing train-and-trainer workshops in Nizza for the last two or three years, I like to be in the winter, especially when the sun shines. Yes, in Nizza. Train-and-trainer workshops, I have a team there, I have a team of six people, which I bring along my two methods, executive models and reverse pyramid, and then I do a or two times a year, now in October, again, a Nizza workshop and also exciting for communication people, who, if they fly out, then we want to do the training. These two things, I think, are international and Nizza, the Nizza workshops, I would lift them up, and then somehow I hope it goes on and on. I can't give up the job, because it's so much fun. It's always the client, the client comes to the door, I love them for eight, nine hours, they also feel it. Only for the one there, behind, I don't know what I'm called, as I said, but then I'm exactly for the one there, and it's so much fun. You're like in the air. We could maybe even talk about it. It would be important, because there is a market in Nizza, which is often not so professionally accessible. It goes to everyone, at school, with a methodically sometimes cleaner than in media training for lectures. Media training for lectures, that's often what I know from the GDR. When it comes to TV, there is no training for speech, didactic rubbish, so qualification, a very important topic, that I always keep in mind, that qualification is A&O, also for my job. And there is just too much knowledge, too much to 7% comes from the content, the whole language of the body, this pyramid of the journalist, which is recommended by the top manager, so qualification is A&O. And there it looks very, very ugly, not even a weekly course in rhetorical, didactic multiple times. Second, reliability. There are often former journalists who do that. And reliability, from someone whose job it is to collect information and pack them somehow together, to a small text and no podcast, and then to sell it somehow. For whom it is very convenient to suddenly say trustworthy at the one Tuesday. And the third discussion, I've never had references from back in 30 years. It would be a shame, actually, it would be interesting. So automatically, I know no one, I never heard, I don't know, wonderful. Principles keep life, help me, that's why I often have an addiction, such a uniform, principles keep one together. You don't have to put it over again, can you name it or not? No, I don't know a wonderful principle. Then Stefan, thank you very much for your time, that you were here. Thank you. If you liked the episode, please leave a rating there, follow us on Instagram, subscribe to our free newsletter. I am Leo Ginsburg, see you next time.