[SPOILERS] You Can See Everything — How did Nathan Fielder do that?

In our time is a world class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glenny and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure. In our time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. I'm LLMean up to my mood and this is commotion. Elisabeth Bresnack is here. Chandler Lovakis here. Adam name is here and we are going to get into it. We're going to get into you can see everything. Ben Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmes, documentary. But here's the thing. We've already had the conversation that did not have any spoilers. It was hard. It was really hard for us to talk about this movie without spoiling it. So now we're going to do it again. But this time, they will be spoilers. So if you've listened this far, we're going to spoil the thing. Maybe you don't want us to go around for this. I'm going to give you a second. Just in case you're wandering into a spoiler territory and you don't want to be here. Are you gone? Are you good? If you're still here, then clearly you are ready to talk about this movie. Which is the feeling that I had. I had this feeling of coming out of this movie. Like I need to call everyone I know and I need to ask them questions about their lives. I need to just understand how they experienced this movie. Alyssa, I feel like when I came out of this movie, the first feeling I was having is maybe free Elizabeth Holmes. And then the second feeling I was having is, is this the most manipulative person to live on this planet? And then the third feeling is, this is a documentary that created the entire pathway for me to land in this place. And so I'll ask you, my first question to you is, as you're walking out of this movie theater, do you go, I think Nathan Fielder has successfully troubled my notion of who Elizabeth Holmes is? I mean, yes, it's funny. Everyone wants to talk about this movie. The woman sitting next to me in the movie, like we were in the bathroom afterwards, washing our hands. She turns to me and she's like, so what do we think of her now? And I was like, it's complicated. I couldn't actually give her like a true solid answer. And that was the true feeling I had. I would say my picture of her is a lot more filled in now. Nothing I saw in this film seems to undermine the legitimacy of the charges she was found guilty of and sent to jail for. But I think I understand something more fundamental about her dynamic in relationships and her willingness to surrender her entire being or identity to an idea. And I see a lot of parallels between the relationships she had with Sonny Bolwani, who was much older than her. And we seem to be someone she sort of placed a lot of faith in to help her achieve her while the streams. And her current partner, Billy Evans, who emerged as a real savior for her in the aftermath of Theranos falling apart. And you know, if I were Elizabeth Holmes standing in that moment of failure and I met somebody who fell in love with me, I would probably feel like no one in the entire world would ever love me again. And that would be a really, really strong binding energy to what we did next together. So I think both situations seem like pressure cougars that really encourage co-dependence and like place a really steadfast faith that the board faith was used in the end of the movie in their relationships. Well, I mean, I was going to say there's a turn in the movie, but there's a whole bunch of turns in the movie. But one of the earlier turns that happened in the movie, Adam, is what we're dancing around is that Tom Cruise is playing Nathan Phillips under a mission impossible man and that in that. It's actually a digger sequel. It's a coqual to digger. You're meant to watch them both at the same time. You know what, even before we get to the one that we're all kind of dancing around, which I also want to say before we say what it is, as soon as there's a clip in the film of them watching Elizabeth Holmes related media, including the dropout, anyone who's got even a passing familiar with Nathan Fielder goes, I know where this is going to be. But before we get to that, I mean, I might even leave the pleasure of that one to Chandler. I love the dropout. Alyssa, you just spoke what you just said was so eloquent and so smart about the dynamic with Elizabeth and the new husband. I mean, the new husband, Billy Evans, this is like one of the most fascinating parts of the dock, like both complimentary and non-complex. I changed my mind about him 45 times. Well, because we already talked about the Abbott and Castello scene. And in that scene, two things are very clear, which is he gets the joke, which doesn't matter. It's not for his benefit and he's not laughing. But he gets who Nathan Fielder is. He understands what Nathan Fielder can do for us. So one twist I want to say, even before the big thermonuclear one, we're all dancing around. Well, it is revealed that he's like, well, we instigated this project. That's right. And we wanted Nathan. Yeah. Now, I would say Nathan Fielder, I would say Nathan Circa 2023 is not the Nathan Fielder now, but he is still a known commodity. Lansop and Heimless so, but it's, but Lans is self-effacing. Yeah. He is a co-author of this movie and he should get half the credit for it. But he doesn't appear on camera. That's the point. That's right. Nathan does because there's a character that Nathan is known for. A character that Nathan's known for. Now, why Billy Evans thought this character might be of some use? Is it going to make it all seem lighter? Is it going to put it all in quotes? Is it going to be funny? Does he think Nathan's a bad documentary filmmaker? Because while he gets him, he doesn't like him. Or at least the film is edited to suggest. Billy does not like Nathan. Nathan does not like Billy because he feels like Billy is kind of this crappy, controlling obnoxious husband who, by the way, parallel to this. And I'm imposing a little bit here. It seems to be a pretty good dud. All right. Who is every shot of Billy is a father. I'm like, that's, he's actually the easiest one. Who is, who is, who is looking after these kids and coming through. But there's this like Menazha Twa dynamic that is so fraught. Because one little twist in the movies that Nathan Elizabeth, they're pretty flirty in front of-- Certainly they have intimacy. They have intimacy in front of Billy, who you kind of are like, I see why he's registering this. He's registering this. So that is, and then there's this, another spoiler. I joke to my review, the meaning of the title. You can see everything. You've got Billy in the shower being filmed by Nathan. And just-- That part was wild. And just flashing at him. He's not shocked. He's like, oh, you're filming me? Yeah. Well, look at this. And because, you know, there's something there that's pretty big. And he's also-- Beautiful penis. Beautiful penis. And he's in great fucking shape. So forget shape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he is showing off because he is fit. And Nathan is like, you're a ladies man, right? You've had a lot of sex, right? Well, Nathan's obsessed. Obsess. Obsess. He's obsessed with the masculine. But that felt like it was so part of a classic Nathan for you episode. That's right. That's exactly it is. And then it is. And then you've got-- So why does that-- That was like, it felt like such a tonal incongruity from the rest of the style of the documentary. Literally, it felt like it was airlifted from the first season of the film. But I had that feeling when Billy invites the camera crew to come to the gym. And you go, like, how is this going to be pertinent in any kind of way? And then they go to the gym and go, like, oh, this is deeply pertinent to the things that are done in this play. So I think Billy's invitation and then other things, which maybe we'll get to as we keep going through spoilers. Not just about the invitation, but the terms of the film are a thing that I've very rarely seen a film do. Where a film kind of stops, that also-- by the way, the terms under which this film is made-- and we are naming our parent corporation. We are talking about this. And it's played as a twist. And played as a twist in terms of the invitation to make the film and who's getting what out of it. It's something that we have to put on the table. And I've still saved the big thing to put on the table for the channel. I was going to say, let us organize ourselves through all of the twists, because there's a whole bunch of them that we got to move through. And to me, like, one of the earlier turning points, Chandler, and we will get to the thermonuclear twist, as we're referring to here. I mean, I guess people are watching this film, that have already seen you can see everything. And so they already know where we're headed. But I want to start by the turn in the movie where Nathan kind of sits up and goes, wait a minute, this is the problem of language. Or the Elizabeth Holmes seems to be miscommunicated, or has miscommunicated to people, because she's like, this device can do that. It's capable of doing this thing. And you can see him go, hang on, that's what this is about. And then there is the Abbott and Costello scene, where as he's showing them the who's on first, it's played for heartbreak, Chandler. It's played for heartbreak, but you're watching Elizabeth Holmes. Kind of not quite be able to connect. Not quite be able to understand what the joke is in who's on first. And you kind of watch that scene and go, oh, Nathan Field is here, because he's the person who can most accurately display how people can miss one another. How people can kind of disconnect from one another in these tiny, tiny little ways. To me, that felt like a really big significant point. And really, only Nathan Field could do that. That's when I first fully understood why Nathan was there. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, in the first season of the rehearsal, there's kind of a turning point where he takes this test to determine whether or not he might be autistic. And, you know, at the end, he never wants the answers. And it feels like there's some elements of the themes of that season of like not picking up on social cues, like believing in this logic, how other people's brains maybe don't work the way that you do. And Billy understands her and understands how unusual she is. And it's so frustrating as a documentarian. Elizabeth Holmes told me like the device. can work, but you know that like she's under this like legal, she's going to jail because it didn't work. She like invest, the investors like brought it all billions of dollars like it would drive me up the wall. And I would, I think I would just go insane, which I'd be much more gentle less gentle than the end diplomatic than than he is with her in that moment. So that's why I think that who's on first scene is so fundamental. I mean, that I understood that joke when I was like seven years old, but it's, it's like when you find out that people, some people on earth, like don't have interior monologues in their brain. They don't have inner thoughts like you go like, whoa, we're very different. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, oh, so like the here's a woman that doesn't understand the, the meaning of the joke who's on first. And so you're like, is this again her playing a victim, the naive tape, manipulating people. It's a sort of become, you know, blameless or is it, is there something just intrinsically different about her brain in the way she processes information where she literally believes everything that she said is being, as being true, and she doesn't understand why she's being indicted? Yeah. And let's say like that was the revelatory part because that is the idea of even if you believe that those with homes has defrauded people, even if like, and she has been convicted of this, you watch that scene. And I don't, I think you receive this documentary that this is a person who is not quite picking up on what the humor is in this. And Nathan is, is, is quizzing her like he's kind of getting closer to be like, I, I played this for you. Do you understand where the joke is as she was like, yes, it's funny. And then when he's like, who's, what's the name of a player who's on first? And she can't answer that question. And it becomes clear to you as, as you already remember, as it becomes clear to, to, to, to Nathan that the, the, there is a disconnect here between how this person sort of views the world and how they are viewed. And like that to me was played so expertly and kind of like becomes the through line through which you see the rest of all of her conversations. And you kind of, I kind of was like, I actually don't, I'm not sure this person has any artifice. I'm not sure that this person is capable of deceiving. I think they're just like the most literal person ever. But then maybe they're also the most manipulative person on the planet. I don't know. Right. Well, it's between like a very child like it's the, the giant pools of her eyes that are unblinking like this like childlike face and personality like especially in the first half of the film when she's there in sort of the cocoon of her family. And then there are these moments where it's like she is willfully like taking a step back and Billy is taking the reins and you wonder if that's all by design. Like I, I think that it's sort of like you can have that face and be like, yeah, I have this disconnect like I'm not like other people, but you can also know when you have an operator who's taking care of things for you. And in that relied on all these background conversations, which I don't know if we're ready to get into these spoilers, which then, you know, Nathan found a way to recreate. Well, let's, let's, I mean, let's get into the spoiler. It's time. It's, it's, it's swung back around to me. Yeah. So Tom Cruise is playing Elizabeth Holmes. So there's a moment in the film that turned much like showing her Abbott and Castello. He shows her Amanda Saferead in the dropout playing Elizabeth Holmes and she's a very hard time watching that she can't, which is, which is, which is fascinating in and of itself, whether she doesn't like being impersonated or she's like, this didn't happen or because you go down this rabbit hole of thoughts, to some extent, it did happen that even if this wasn't what was said or, or what was done or what people wore, especially the illusions to Sunny and her, and the dancing from her Steve Jobs poster, that's in front of the Steve Jobs poster. I mean, she seems it's less about accuracy than a kind of accuracy that's underneath the fake really. She doesn't like looking at it. And that's right. Then she goes to jail or to prison and you think where is this movie going to go from here? There's another hour and a half of them. Nathan is confronted with the loss of his, of his protagonist and he really doesn't want to deal with Billy or he doesn't like how Billy is dealing with him. So what does he do? So he goes to his apparent close personal friend, Amanda Sayfried, who meets him at her like ranch with her horses, the two of them other than the crew, and I'm not trying to bury the lead of the fact that what she does, but the way it happens is important too, at her ranch alone with no one around, very cozy as if they've been best friends forever and intimacy that the movie just assumes we are going to take on its surface. And he is like, well, we're cool artistic types and you play Elizabeth Holmes. What do you think? You play another documentary. And not just what do you think, but like I'm making this doc and oh, I wish I could just talk to her or I wish I could go back to these moments or I wish there was another angle I could take on what happens. And in a very kind of like hearty boys, you know, like let's do it, let's do a caper together. She kind of gets into it with him and becomes situationally his Elizabeth Holmes in these recreations in these moments. I might let these guys talk about that. I just want to say why do we believe any of this? Because it is shot and edited and staged in a way with such escalating, pressurized, and narrative. But of course it is because these are brilliant filmmakers and she's a man to say for each. She's a great actor. I got to say that that part of the film is so messed up because of also the intimacy that is encroaching between them. Which kind of puts Elizabeth Holmes off to the side and you're like, what is happening with Nathan Fielder in quotes and demand to say for you in quote, he's going through a breakup and they're constantly kind of meeting alone. I mean, so you didn't receive that as documentary. You didn't receive that as Nathan Fielder is here as well here. I'll say this then again, I don't want to want these guys to say something. I trust Nathan Fielder because I do not trust him for one second. I trust that I do not trust him. I believe him because I do not believe him. This movie's transformation into a thriller that is based on ticking clocks and deadlines and pressurized. You'll be here at night. All of these ethical violations of him as a documentary but also what is going on between him and Saferead and Saferead's frustration with Elizabeth Holmes. Yes. Elizabeth Holmes feels about the dropout. I'm like, man, this is engrossing and entertaining. Why is it so engrossing and entertaining? That's all I'm going to say. Well, Chandler, let's get into it. When that twist happens, when that sort of turns and that turn happens and you see a men to Saferead step into the frame and she's watching this and she's having an emotionally difficult response as she watches this entire documentary, I receive that also as documentary. But then later on, as we had this entire conversation with everybody on the show who went to see this movie, they didn't step on each other in terms of dialogue. These were just people who were like, you say this line and then you say this line and then you say this line and then you say this line. And I didn't know and I still don't know what to do with that part except for it's Nathan trying to say, if this is the figure that we're working through, how can we get as close as possible to working with all the things that are not represented. No camera did not capture and the next best thing is to go to your representation of her. But how did you handle Amanda Saferead in this movie? Yeah. To me, I remember watching it yesterday and just thinking, oh my god, it's like the movie is becoming like a miracle novel where like the woman just disappears. It's like the wine of bird chronicle or something and all the weird lonely men just have to contend with her absence and you don't know if she's ever going to come back and what you do, like there's this kind of fruitless like searching for her and she's just gone and then Amanda Saferead like feels that gap. As a director, I was so fascinated by kind of their like scene study process, you know, and because he's not allowed to like record in the prison, they do and they were or record their phone conversations. He sort of writes like a transcript of how he remembers it going and then Amanda Saferead and him kind of do this like almost like. Did you read through? Myzner. Yeah, it's like it's like how I work with actors. Did I do like a table read of the script and then Amanda has these reactions? Yeah, they punch up the dialogue sometimes they, you know, talk about it, you know, there's a part where she gives like a line reading and Nathan's kind of like it didn't really like, I think you can, can you do it again? It's not really the way it sounds. And then she did it again. And like the director of me was like, oh, it's pretty good, he's like, yeah, it's good. And yeah, and I mean, obviously it made me love is if I couldn't love Amanda Saferead more, but she's just such a phenomenal actress, but you also see her, I mean, she's this rule that she won, you know, an Emmy for, but you see her because we've spent like, you know, an hour in like with Elizabeth Holmes like there, you know, you see her sometimes getting the performance right, not quite nailing it, trying to find new layers to it, you know, and it's, it's so fascinating to me about, this is movie just about acting in direction as well. Hey, it's Danielle and Cali, your host of in three, Canada's number one entertainment news podcast. I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people were media pros. We hosted the Verity screening besties, how we has become the hottest Backstreet Boy. Said no one but you ever, ever, and insiders who have seen it all, IRL Oscars Golden Globes, you name it, we have been there with access to the biggest talent. Welcome to in three Patrick J. Adam, the fun starts in three. who's not gonna survive this? - Dad talk. - Oh, new episodes, "Mundays" and "Thursdays." (laughing) - Well, I mean, like the movies about how to me, the movies about how many layers of mediation we receive information through all the time. And all of those are in the room with me all the time, even though I'm choosing quite often to not look at them. Alyssa, when that twist happens, when that twist happens, and then you go, okay, how far is a fantasy if you're gonna go into this thing? There is a part of me that goes, I would like to drink wine with a man to say freed, and then go hang out with a guy that sounds like a really compelling kind of time. But also, I had a really difficult time with her being there knowing what Elizabeth Holmes had said about how she received her representation of her. And that's the thing that you're, it makes you sort of ethically implicated in this too, especially if you like the dropout, which I did. And so I'm watching this thing, having a really difficult time being like, should a man to say freed be here? And Nathan is like, I'm also wondering if she should be here. And she pulls in an incredible performance. Flash, maybe, was documentary. How did you receive that part, Alyssa? - I mean, I think about it in the sense that like, documentary in its traditional form is supposed to be this pursuit of truth, right? And maybe there's a dismissal of the fictionalization of real life events in the form of something like the dropout. - Yeah. - And maybe the point that I got from it was that, like, the same work that Nathan was doing, Amanda was trying to do. Like, they were both trying to solve the same mystery because Amanda wanted to know the emotional truth, so she could better play Elizabeth. And Nathan wanted to know the truth so that he could have a documentary that felt satisfying to the viewer. And so, to me, like, they were aligned on that and almost like, like, like, buddy detective type way. - Yeah. - And like, I liked it even as I understood it to be highly manipulative, like any approach of a celebrity to be featured in a film like this would take months and months of a negotiation that were not then acted out by another actress who was playing Amanda's safe-read. Do you know what I'm saying? - That's, you can see everything in part two. - She didn't get the home's treatment. So, like, I think that that's something to really keep in mind that there was a high amount of orchestration happening here. - They have used in this film Amanda's safe-read to make vivid and dramatic things that may very well have not happened at all. She is inserted into flashbacks that Nathan and Lance Oppenheim claim happen and that are super compelling. And we're putting it all on the table here, like the idea that, you know, - Then the negotiation part. - The idea that A24 offer to give them money in the midst of their debts and their notoriety and their criminality to, like, get them in the film, that Billy knew this and that Elizabeth suddenly didn't. We now have scenes of that happening that are played to the Hilt performance-wise. - By Amanda's safe-read. - By Amanda's safe-read also, spoiler, you know, Chris, Chris, Chris Abbott, you know, from Girls as Billy. We have a scene of Elizabeth Holmes in jail terrified about, like, disclosing anything to Nathan as her husband, just supposedly, you know, coming to Interruptor, where she just, basically, sounds like a Manson girl, where she is like, I'm gonna build monuments of love to my husband and this is all I want. And this is there because Nathan could not get a recording of her saying it. - That's right. - He says, this is what she said. And it is now acted in vivid terms by Amanda's safe-read in the way that we are never going to forget it. - Yeah. - Last word on Elizabeth Holmes's submissiveness to her husband, the girl boss is kind of like a, you know, like a concubine or whatever. It's like, I didn't happen. The Nathan says it did. - We don't know if it did. - But we've absolutely no idea why it did. And safe-read is what I'm gonna say 'cause I think she's wonderful too. She's a great actor and I love her performance as herself as much as Elizabeth Holmes. Because I have no idea what she is actually doing. But she has moments where she is completely indignant, and angry, and defensive, and frustrated, but not just Elizabeth Holmes's criticism in the drop-out, but anyone's criticism in the drop-out. 'Cause it's work that she did. - She gets very defensive. - But it's not valuable work. The drop-out's a completely mediocre show. She's good on it. - Yeah. - It's a document. - No, it's good. I love the drop-out. - It's okay. But like, you know, she says, I'm an artist, and this is my process. It's like to do what? To misrepresent history for a Hulu series. I mean, she is put on her back foot, whether she is actually there, where she is a great actress, channeling and playing those professional anxieties. There's stuff in the last 20 or 30 minutes of this movie, and to your point off the top, we are gonna talk about it for a long time, because the dazzling stuff up front gives way to things that I think are really insidious, and unpleasant, and not super cool, even though they're great, 'cause that's what art is. It's a safely unsafe space. I am gonna think about that prison scene discussion, that for all intents and purposes is now happened, and burned into my brain between Nathan Fielder and Amanda Safereads, Elizabeth Holmes, talking about Billy Evans and their marriage. - Yeah. - I have no idea if this happened. - Yeah. - And why would anyone trust Nathan Fielder, bracket, complimentary? (laughing) - It's so funny, because I just accepted everything on face value. - Yeah. - I never occurred to me that that would be constructive or random or fake. - But Chandler, when he's doing that, not only is it being recorded, it is shot, and you know this, you're a good filmmaker. It's shot, lit, edited, scored, in a way that is split. - You're not documentary-ish. At all, the movie has now been pressurized like a thriller. - Yeah, like the fireplace scene, where she puts the log into the fire, I'm like, which looks exactly like Phantom Thread, by the way. (laughing) - Same shot as Phantom Thread. - There's a lot of master, but I just want to say, yeah, it's your right, it didn't occur to me, and the most unsettling of what, of many parts of it, it's so funny, because when this movie got announced that it was a secret screening at Tell Your Ride, I went on Elizabeth Holmes's Twitter, and I was like, it's so weird that her Twitter is like this. Like, it doesn't sound like, or why would someone like, Ms. Rapids, and why are there all these like, sort of edge-lord, like Elon Musk asks, like-- - Now you know. - Now you know? - Yeah. - They don't sound like a woman that's like gone to prison and is trying to rehabilitate her image, would have, like they're so bizarre. And then you realize, like when you're watching the movie, that Billy has taken over Elizabeth Holmes's Twitter account, it's kind of tweed as-- - And a ledgerly power of attorney, according to him on the internet. - Yes. - What does Nathan say? He goes, but she's still alive. - Yeah, no, I'm not interested. Amanda Saferee says that. She says, but she's still alive, that's messed up. I literally-- - And so it's like, it's kind of these guys that are, you're right. I didn't realize this at all, but that are like, kind of feel like they have due license to like take her words and sort of rewrite-- - Literally. - Yeah. She says and does in what they think is either defense or an ability to make money off of her-- - Or turn her into an AI programmed with her own voice to say whatever they want her to say. - Yes. - Yeah. It's absolutely, to me, disgusting. And that was the part that really incensed me the most. - And our standing for that incense, by the way, is Amanda Saferee, who was like, what the hell is happening here? I actually have to leave it there, not because I want to, but because I have to give the studio back at a certain moment. And so, I truly, we could be talking about this for the entire runtime of, you can see everything, which is three hours, but we got to wrap it here. This has been the spoiler conversation about, you can see everything. Alyssa Bresnack, Chandler LeVac, Adam Naaman. I really appreciate you guys coming in. Thank you so much for doing this. I am gonna go see this movie again. And then we should do this again in a week and go like, how are we feeling now? Because I feel like even that is going to change a whole bunch of times over the next few days. So thanks again for doing this everybody. - Thank you. - You're a pleasure, I'm just forever. (laughing) - Alyssa Bresnack is a former tech journalist and GQ's wellness and grooming director, she's NLA. Chandler LeVac is a writer and filmmaker. She's also in NLA. Adam Naaman is a film and TV critic whose work shows up in the ringer and the Toronto star. He was with me right here in Toronto. You can see everything is out now in theaters. I'm Adam Naaman. I'm Adam Naaman. This is a commotion. We'll see you soon. (upbeat music) - For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.