‘Spider-Man: Brand New Day’ and the Spider-Man Movie Rankings

I'm Sean Fennessy. I'm Amanda Davin. This is the big picture at Conversation Show about Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can. On today's episode we will be joined by Van Lathen to talk about Spider-Man brand new day. The fourth installment in the Tom Holland-era Spider series will break down. What worked in this movie? What didn't work if anything didn't work? And what it means for the future of the MCU, we will also rank all 11 Spider-Man movies. But first let's get into some movie news right after this. This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title, you pick a feeling. And Prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, Prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving. Shows you can't wait for and deliveries you don't wait for. One click away. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. Okay, Amanda to start, we have a programming announcement. Yes. So we are returning to American Cinema Tech's friend of the fest this year. Together. Together, you and I will both be there August 25th, 7.30pm, what film are we screening? Out of sight directed by my beloved Steven Soderbergh, starring George Clooney and Jennifer Lopez. Really can't wait. Have any two actors had more heat between them in a film, arguably, arguably not. You're also returning to friend of the fest, are you not? Yes, we are doing the Matrix Reloaded. The entire Midnight Boy's P.P.U. Squad is going to be there. And what day and time is that? Do not remember. This information is available online. By tickets come CS come say hi, we are excited. We've been this is our fourth time, I think, doing the festival. We counted Mr. Ripley on Miss Gone Girl. Oh, I was reading Gone Girl, which my missed Michael Clayton reunited. Yes. Thank you to the Venice Festival for shifting back a week. Thank you the Labor Day for being as late as it is this year. It is very late this year. Yeah. Let's start with some movie news. I'm glad you're here for this movie news. Okay. So there was a trailer for a new film called the Thomas Crown Affair. Yes. This has been a film twice before. This is a reimagining 30 years later and 60 years later of the Thomas Crown Affair. The second film in the series. Yes, the Thomas Crown Affair parentheses 1999. Yes, that is a foundational text for Amanda Dobbins. Directed by John McTeeernan, maybe you've heard of him, starring Pierce Brosnan, Renee Russo. In her early 40s, just absolutely throwing 100 miles an hour in every sense of the word, including topless. Yes. I remember that. I'm sure she was in her late 40s at that point, maybe almost 50, right? Am I tripping? I thought maybe 43. Oh, okay. But she is on record saying that she, if she didn't propose the topless scenes, then she was like very game because it was a really use it while you got it. Philosophy, which is the beauty on screen. I really absolutely endorse and respect. Relatable. Well, I wish it were relatable in my case, but. I think we're all hoping that the stars, that clip, I'm over it. I think, I think we're all hopeful that the stars of this new film will have the same feelings about putting themselves on screen. Michael B. Jordan is starring in and directing this new version of the Thomas Crown Affair. Adriar Hona plays the female lead of the film. You and I did get a chance to see some footage, not exactly what has been released when we were at CinemaCon in April. This is the official trailer release. I need to go to you first because of how much the second film means to you. What do you think? I welcome it. Please make as many Heist movies about billionaires set in internationally renowned cities as you would like to make. I just thank you and I'll see you in March. This is not complicated to me. It's not like the Thomas Crown Affair in 1999. You know, is there will be blood? Right. It is a remake. It is a little bit cheesy in just the right way. You know, they have sex on the marble stairs and they like dance a chip ryanis and then he folds the painting into a briefcase. But it doesn't totally make sense because they cut the shot where you take the frame out. Anyway, we're not defending the highest art of cinema. What we're doing is having fun at the movies and I can still do it. Okay. Can you do it? Sneaky ambitious swing from Mike. Yeah, to me. He's been in a lot of movies that have been very successful, but allow those movies that are very successful that he's been in are like sinners is a genre film, right? Has all kinds of things to buy it. The creed is in the Rocky verse, Black Panther, whatever have you. This is a movie where you have to go see this movie for Michael B Jordan and he has to charisma his way through the entire thing. Well, he just won an Oscar. So like what I'm saying is in this case, this is where really this is the movie where you drop your nuts. And you go, I am in this gigantic, huge film when she was dripping with charisma, right? Both characters had a different type of charisma. But now you solidify your claim as the number one guy if this movie works and is successful. It's a really, really bold and exciting movie star move. Because this is as close as he's likely to get to James Bond. It's interesting. It's from the same studio that also has James Bond now with the sort of guy. I guess this is, you know what it reminded me of the trailer a lot is Tenant. It looks a lot like Tenant in terms of the way that the action is scaled and styled. Hopefully it has a little bit more narrative coherence for the general audiences at home. But this is a pro-tenant podcast. No question. There's a pro and BJ podcast. I don't know. I'm, I got a lot of feedback from people who know how much the 1999 version means to me. And they were excited for me. And then I saw some other people saying, are we sure, you know, this is a risk. Well, blah, blah, blah. I don't really understand that mentality. Just accept the big budget Heist movie from a major movie star who's also a director. I agree. I'm looking forward to it. Any, any Adria or Hona thoughts. All of them. She's so beautiful. She gets it done. That's the respectful way of saying what you're thinking. But I like honestly that woman even in which so she was in the father of the bride remake isn't that right on. Like HBO Max or whatever. And even in that not very good movie, I was like, who is this woman and what's going on here? Every time you see her like begging to be made a star. One of those interesting people that if we look back at her career five to 10 years from now, like we're going to say it was right there for her to become a major star. She needs the right world to pop to like get to that next level. Yeah. I don't know if she's been better than she was in Hitman. She's amazing in Hitman. She was very funny in Splitsville, which came out last year. I don't know if you saw that movie. Hit that. You know, she's funny. You might like it. She's about to be an onslaught that's new at a wing guard movie that looks very kind of terminator inspired. And it sounds like she's Wonder Woman. Yeah, because that hasn't been confirmed. Oh, really? It sounds like she is. Oh, cool. Yeah, she's playing a role in Mana Tomorrow. I think they won't really say what the role is, but it seems pretty likely that she's won. It's her name, Diana. Well, they've talked about that. It might be a different character that like exists. The different Diana. Not different Diana, but it's like a different character. It's playing Princess Diana. Wow. I think that it's a it's a it's a ran herring because I think Michael is holed Buzz Lightyear. Did you ever see that photo? Did you see the photo? The boy just his suit is similar to Buzz Lightyear. Yeah. Yeah. The war. The war armoured it less with her. Yeah. It did look like there were some copyright infringements there. We're going to we're going to talk about Mana Tomorrow a little bit near the end of this conversation about Spider-Man because I've been thinking a little bit about the long road that we are on and we'll continue to be on and what will work and what won't work. But let's let's transition away from the news and directly into Spider-Man brand new day. This is as I said, the fourth film in the Holland spider series. It's the first one directed by Descent Hale Cretten. This is not his first Marvel project, of course, he directed Shang Chi. He also had a huge hand in the Wonder Man series that came out earlier this year. This new movie brings back Hollins and Daya, Jacob Battalon. We have some new faces who've not appeared in Spider-Man movies before John Bernthal, Tremel Tillman, Michael Mando, who has been in them and is back. Mark Ruffalo is in this film and I think we're probably just going to put the spoiler warning right now. If you haven't seen this film, we're going to talk about not just what happens in it, but who is in it? And one thing that they've been circumspect about that everybody knows, but they're not supposed to know, but they are supposed to know is that Sadie Sink is in this movie. From Stranger Things and she is playing a significant character that we will talk about momentarily in the Marvel Cinematic Universe to come. Really, if you don't want to know who's in this movie or what's happening, turn it off. We're not going to abide any of your complaints. I think it will be difficult to talk about it without just being direct about all the effects. I can only be able to understand this criticism, it's starting to get on my nerves. We have to talk about the movie, we have to take it happen. If you don't want to just go see the film and then come back and listen to the podcast after. Yeah, the good news is everyone's going to go see this movie. This is going to be one of the biggest movies probably of all time. If they didn't already see it at our incredibly oversubscribed and unprofessional screening. Okay, so the story of the movie, following Dr. Steven Stranger's spell at the end of the film, Spider-Man, no way home the world has forgotten that Peter Parker exists. Four years later, Parker anonymously protects New York City as the hero, Spider-Man, and investigates a powerful new threat while his superpowers undergo a surprising and potentially dangerous evolution. I mean, I'll start with you. Why not, guess first. Well, because he's sharing thoughts on the midnight boys. You know, it's your show. Thank you, thanks. Yeah, remind everyone listening. Well, I think this is the least successful of the Tom Holland movies in my opinion. Oh, fascinating. And I say that because I have just rewatched all of them. I prepared for these rankings that we're about to do. I have rewatched every single of these movies except for Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse in the last week. So and all of the Tom Holland ones pretty recently. And I think some of it is just the saved by the Belk, the college years aspect of it all, which is he is no longer a teenager. And he has moved on in his life. And so the essential Spider-Man magic, which is, this is a kid trying to figure life out and trying to figure out what to do with his great power and great responsibility. And just, you know, can a your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man have it all, which is it's perfect. The character and the further you get from that situation. And the more you have to bring everybody like back into place in sort of broke ways. The less room you have for what makes this Spider-Man. And Tom Holland specifically, I think is probably my favorite Spider-Man and it's wonderful. But you just have less room for him because he's got to be alone and sad. And you have to set up whatever the hell new franchise that you guys are going to talk to me about. So, you know, I'm not there to be like, Oh, what are they going to do with the X-Men? I'm there to be like, Oh, is Tom Holland going to get to talk to Zendaya in his butt? You know? And like, Oh, Marisa Tomay still looks really, really hot and flashback. And maybe I should stop my hair like that. It's on a real. It's a different world in 1989, '90 and '91. Just like has a hold over it. It's, it's so, it's inspiring. And I'm proud of it. Should I get those glasses? But the glasses are too big for my prescription. You know, that's kind of, so that's where I am when I'm watching a Spider-Man. So I, and also, and crucially, most crucially, you and I did not see this sitting next to each other. And so, so you were confused. Well, I'm usually the explainer. Yes. There were a few moments where you were not there to lean over and put some context in. And I think in some of the X-Men stuff that would have been useful. Well, we'll talk about that. Yeah. So, there's some interesting choices that are made in this movie. Does that mean that it's bad? I don't, I don't think I think that it's bad. I think it's just my least favorite of the four because of every all of the terrain that it has to cover. And also what I'm most interested in in Superman. I mean, Spider-Man. Sorry. I do know the difference. Peter Parker. Yeah. And what do you think? Obviously, I thought it was phenomenal. Okay. But it's interesting. I think how, how deep into your cheek is your tongue that when you say that? No. So when I say phenomenal, I mean, I thought the movie was really, really good. Like, really good. Like, and it's interesting hearing, like a man that's take because like the Spider-Man, the criticism of the Spider-Man that we've gotten, the Tom Holland Spider-Man is that it's actually not actually Spider-Man. Is that the Spider-Man that most people fall in love with or have fallen in love with is a Spider-Man that is working for the daily bugle is constantly broke is alone. And one of the main things that he is grappling with is how to be Spider-Man and also how to be a normal guy, right? How to work and make money. He doesn't have in a lot of the comics, Lord. This great benefactor of Tony Stark and someone that can shepherd him and answer questions for him. What has happened to Spider-Man is the guy who did that died, which is Uncle Ben, which catapulted him to be Spider-Man, but also put him in this situation where he has to figure out a lot of these aspects of his life and he's just a young adult, just a young guy. That version of Spider-Man hasn't existed in the MCU. Not yet. There's always been for him somebody who kind of was a little growing him. Be it Tony Stark, they let Mysterio do it. Then he gets three other, he gets two other mentors that, you know, were other Spider-Man. But this one is so wonderful when that happens. I watched it again this morning. I loved it. And Dr. Strange too. And Dr. Strange as well. This is a big criticism of the previous three movies is that they won't just let Spider-Man have his own movie. Right. I would argue that this movie doesn't do that either. No. Well, I think that it does. I think that like there's a certain MCU aspect of it that kind of gets put in, but this is the first movie to me that is directly through his purview as a solo character having to use all of his resources on his own to figure things out. And so at the end of the last film, that was the exciting thing about this film was that we were finally going to get it. See, like those first movies were an actual three film arc to get us to the actual Spider-Man that we know. And I thought that this movie kind of landed that plane. I think I'm right in between both of you. I think. And if I had to guess, this will be the rare case where my opinion is what the opinion that most people have, which is that like I don't that's not that's not common these days. But I liked this movie. I didn't love it. And it does a lot of things that I really admire that I disliked it. Yeah. But I would imagine I liked it more than you. I don't I do think it is there are some things about it that are clearly much more sophisticated in terms of filmmaking than in the three previous John Watts movies. I think the John Watts movies. And also because of some of the Tony Stark stuff that he talked about with, you know, the nano tech spidey suit. It's just like they kind of just seem like a CGI explosion a lot of the time. This movie is much more grounded. It feel it looks not just because of the story arc, but the suit and the way that the action is shot. It feels much more like the Spider-Man. I imagine when I was reading comic books. And so I really liked that about it. I agree with you about Holland. I think he is the best Spider-Man. I think him making this evolution over time. And what that series that you talked about the first three films. What that those films do is they essentially like elongate the first Sam Raimi movie. The first Sam Raimi movie is the same thing. It's a high school movie right about a kid who gets these spider powers. We basically get the high school kid for three movies in this set. And now Tom Holland is 30 years old. And I'm really torn about whether or not this movie being a dour existential examination of a spider boy becoming a spider man is like actually works all the way through. I like that they pursued it. And I do think it's very true to the character. It's just that the movie is a little sullen for a spider man movie for my taste. The other thing that simultaneously works great and works terribly is there's just way too much going on in this movie is way overloaded. It has a lot of responsibilities part of that is the responsibilities of amending what happened at the end of far from home, which is like okay. So we know that Peter and Zendaya and Ned they have to get back together somehow we have to remind Zendaya and Ned that Peter is Spider-Man. And that if we don't do this then this movie hasn't achieved an essential part of the Spider-Man lore. But then also there's a lot of new characters. There's a lot of old characters who are reintroduced. There's an entire organization that is like a rival risk organization that has to be introduced to this. Which organizations that damage control, which is like appeared, but maybe not with so much necessity around MC for a long time. But I didn't remember that until I went back and I never had to send you the centrality that it has in this story. I did have a moment watching this being like really you've named this federal bureau damage control. Well I know that now van, but I didn't you know I've seen every damn movie. But I don't have your I'm not I'm not sitting there with your knowledge. I'm sitting there as a dumb dumb watching these movies. I understand it, but like the name of the organization is shield because it's shield in the comic books. And so damage control is in the very first Spider-Man movie. Vulture gets his stuff. He's getting from damage control. Damage control been a lot for a long time. It's been around for a long time, but it's never been put in the center of a movie. And it really does occupy it. Yeah. I mean, I remember that Michael Keaton was the bird guy and also the dad, like it was great moment. It was the Vulture. I know that. But in my head, what I remembered was Michael Keaton evil bird dad of the prom date. Right. And I did not remember the damage control. I mean, I'll do it with it. And damage control obviously appears in Wonder Man, which just came out. So then there's like some connective tissue between the movies and the TV shows. But that's also something that we've criticized the movie. Control has been in other Spider-Man movies. It was in, it was in like no way home. The second one. Yeah. The third one, like the third one. It's the rim of damage control. It's like damage control has been another spider. So it was waiting to have a larger role in the Spider-Man movies. Do I think that damage control in this situation is the perfect, like sort of antagonists for Spider-Man in this way. There probably been things that would have been more thrilling to me, but it was just been them introducing something else that was brand new. Yeah. For sure. And you know, the movie wrong puts you because it makes you think the damage control very, very transparent. No, it's not. It's a very beginning. Yeah. Once again, and spoiler alert, I'm, I don't remember or know anything going into this except that I want Tom Holland and his buds to get to be together. And Tremel Tillman walks on screen. And I was like, oh, he's, yeah, he's the evil guy. It is, it is instant and obvious even to people who are not in. I think even to the extent that the movie knows that it's doing that. And maybe that's a little bit of a struggle for me with the movie is that the only real genuine crisis and conflict in the movie to me is Peter's personal crisis. The actual battles, the fight sequences, whoever the enemy is going to be doesn't occupy the same space that like maybe a doctor octopus does, where it's sort of like, well, this is one of the critical foes in this person's struggle as a superhero. And he represents something as kind of a counterpoint, you know, that like he was a mentor and he's been driven mad and he's also a man of science. Like there's a lot of deep ideas in the villains in the Spider-Man universe. Yeah. This one I felt kind of has a big gaping hole where that feeling usually goes. So I struggled with that a little bit. And then there's the whole Jean Grey component, which I could not be more mixed on. Here's my positives on the introduction of Jean Grey into this movie. One sadie thing I think is excellent casting. I was not a big stranger things person. I think I quit after the third season. I don't have a ton of exposure to her. Right. I thought she was terrific in this movie. I think the X-Men are very well set up with her in this part. To go back to some of the canonical stuff that Van is talking about. As far as I know, Spider-Man and Jean Grey have no relationship. It's just kind of weird to go into a movie like this and see them interacting in the way that they necessarily do. That doesn't mean that it's bad. It's because they have trauma, you know, so they understand each other and they're lonely. And they've lost someone that they love, which, you know, is also how the other Spidey's bond in No Way Home. That stuff is getting a little pat at the point, obviously. But I just feel at a certain point that the movie, and I'm curious if you guys feel this way, sort of becomes Jean Grey's movie for about 40 minutes. It does. And this is something that many MCU movies are criticized for, but it does overwhelm the Spider-Man quality of the movie. And it's a two hour and 25 minute movie. And I'm not necessarily advocating for excising Jean Grey entirely, but there's not a ton of reason for her to be in this movie other than just to set up what is to come narratively speaking. Yeah. So again, I rewatched the other The Holland trilogy before this in rapid succession, preparing for this podcast. And I had forgotten how much Tony Stark there is in it and how much of it is just interstitial between, you know, the snap and whatever is going on in the Marvel. And those three movies are used in this in the same way to continue stories that are going on outside as much as they are spiting stories. Yeah. So no thing it's different. It's just the tenor of Tony Stark being like, I got you blood, here's your suit. You know, go ahead with Patrick, where you marry me versus say to sink being like, I can control everyone's mind, but not my sister, you know, it's it's a different vibe. Yeah. I think even in the like, and this was a. Jomi had this criticism. A lot of men and I've always had this criticism that the movie has a villain problem. And I think my thing was this villain, Gene Gray, being a villain in this movie is kind of even, you know, to my against my better, my preferences is continuing in the tradition of Spider-Man movies in live action, which if you look at Green Goblin, if you look at Dr. Octopus, which I rewatched that movie and Remy's skill as a horror director is underrated, not in the grand scheme of things. Obviously, he's one of the masters of that craft. But in how he crafts that movie, there are a lot of just straight up horror sequences. He's perfect for Spider-Man because Spider-Man is afraid of the villains in his world. It's different than Captain America. And you have to be afraid of him. So like he makes them scary, right? But Octavius in that movie is a tortured genius that is a good guy that is doing a bad thing in all of these movies, right? Electro and amazing Spider-Man too, you know, the only one that's kind of not that Marko Sandman is like a tragic figure. Right. The only one that's kind of not that is Mysterio to a degree, right? They even bring all of these characters back in no way home and still play to those same hits. So to that end, Jean Gray being someone that starts off as villainous and is doing a villainous thing because of this profound trauma that she has is in line with other things that we've seen in Spider-Man movies. And Spider-Man has been the superhero rehabilitator as much as he's been the person that needs to defeat the villain. I thought it was a really interesting move to have her occupy that space in this movie. I thought it was really interesting to your point though. There gets to be a point in the movie where we're in Jean's story now. And there was always going to be interesting how people were related to that after three movies and come into see Spider-Man. I thought it was in the same tradition as the Civil War being a Black Panther origin story. Like to a lesser degree Iron Man 2 being a Black Widow origin story, she occupies a much larger part of this movie than those characters do. Black Panther is in a lot of Civil War and has an entire arc in Civil War. But yeah, so like I didn't have as much of a problem with it. I never felt watching Civil War though. Like we'll now we're in a Black Panther movie. But I felt like this is like a tributary in the story and we're going to go back to Tony and Kat momentarily. But I'll say that like there's a reason why Jean Grey is just a much much much much much much more fundamental not to me a everybody but a much more fundamental. No, to me too. She's a linchpin in Marvel story. She's one of the most important Marvel characters. I don't know why I'm pandering. Like Jean Grey in this regard is a much much larger character. This is you're going to need to know this. I do know this. I thought you were about to say that she's like the most powerful superhero of all the superheroes. What you guys always say about every time we you know every superhero that thing is like introduced is undefeatable. The other challenge with this of course is that like we've already seen the dark phoenix story told twice before. Okay, so Jean Grey is dark phoenix. She is. Okay, the phoenix. The phoenix force is an entity that is bonded to Jean and then and then Jennifer Lawrence played a blue person who was an ex-man but not dark phoenix. Yeah. Okay. That's what I always get confused on. I think you're making a very good point and I think I haven't even mentioned a bunch of other characters who are in this movie and play somewhat critical roles in this movie. Burnthol's Punisher plays a very big part in the film. So team up. The incredible Hulk is in the film Ruffalo's Hulk. We see Scorpion in full for the first time we see Tombstone in this movie. We see a bunch of comic book characters, right? And the comic book ishness of the movie I loved. There's an incredible sequence with the Punisher and the Hulk and Spider-Man in the middle of the movie where I was like, this is what I have wanted my whole life. When we joke around about like being dorks in 12 years old, like that sequence in the movie, which I don't think really is a very effective movie storytelling, but the sequence itself, I was like, this is rocks. Like I could watch this for an hour and enjoy myself, but why the incredible Hulk is in this movie in the first place? Is it? Is it because he's teaching Spider-Man about Jeanette like by a hacking? Yes. Yes. In order to not be consumed by his Spider-Hort months. Yes. And I have a strong reading of that entire sequence and like what all that means to this movie. Right. So like there's a part of my brain that loved seeing that big splash page sequence or those three guys are fighting. Yeah. There's a part of me that loved seeing Jean Grey freeze all of New York City with her power and start thinking about the future of a cool X-Men movie. And then there's another part of me that was like, I felt like I was looking to my watch every 30 minutes and being like, how much is left in this? Because it feels glacial pace at times. And then the movie goes really fast and then it slows down. And MJ and Peter are talking. Yeah. They're trying to figure out their relationship. And then it speeds up again. So invested in jumps out of that. Yeah. And so I just felt like it was uneven. You know, it's just and not bad and pretty enjoyable. Right. And I think is mostly going to give people what they're looking for here. But there's also just something a little bit off. Well, so this is what I'll. Okay. So the movie is not the perfect version of itself. My rule for comic book movies, really for any movie. My role, my rule for any movie is as long as it works. I wouldn't have cared if Angel would have flown into the movie. Wouldn't have cared the one of all would have been more and more and more and more than to the third. I wouldn't have cared as long as it works. As long as you deploy the characters in a way that serves the story and makes for something cool as long as it works. If you didn't work for people, then it didn't work. And so it was it was fat. But you know, I think the movie is a little bit. I think the parts of the movie that don't work are the parts that are a little reactionary because this movie comes out and is being made. The like Marvel has a big, big sort of a blunder. Maybe it was the Marvel's camera, which one it was and then like right after that happens, they said, hey, first day of shooting brand new day. So a part of this movie, the, the, the ethos was to restore the film. Right. We have a problem to solve. So this is what we're going to do. We have this gigantic character. We have other characters that you like. You're going to come to see this and we're going to give you both the heart and the superhero bananza that you want. That's going to remind you of some of the times that you have fun at the theater before. Right. And they have released the movie exactly one week after Comic Con when they took over Saturday night and you were there in person to be like, no, look over here. Look at all of the cool new things that we're doing in Marvel and here's our new black panther and here's Ryan Gosling, etc. So it is a of a piece of just trying to restart. - So like, I think that the box office, plus the fact that this movie is good enough for a lot of people, fun enough, really good for some people, then some people are gonna be like, less thrilled about it, but that it is good and makes a lot of money is gonna be enough for people to be like, okay, they can still do this. But they were definitely, at some points, just trying to give you this one frame where the Punisher is shooting the whole Spider-Man is on top and that frame was for you to be like, wow, by he said in hall H, I never thought I'd see those three characters on screen together. - Right. - And that frame is meant to like elicit that response from you. - Yeah, there's a much bigger thing going on here, which in theory will transpire over the next two Avengers movies where it's like, all right, all of us dorks have been waiting a really long time for everybody to be in the same movie. And we couldn't get the X-Men in the movie, we hadn't introduced all the other characters, like they've introduced probably 80% of the, maybe 90% of the major Marvel characters now in movies. Like we've gotten pretty far, something like Ghost Rider or Blade, like we haven't quite gotten everybody, but most of them are gonna come around. So they're gonna fulfill all those dreams, desires, and wishes, but that doesn't change like what's in the actual movies, you know? - Totally. - And to me, I've been at war with this for years where I'm like, I'm getting these endorphin hits watching the films. And then I'm thinking about what happened in the film, like an hour later. And I'm like, so what happened again? Which I find to be a little bit of a sign of the struggles that they have with the general storytelling as they try to manage, delivering some of those moments to the audience. The one of the things that the movie does, and I'm curious to hear what you guys think about it is, you know, they introduced this idea of the arachnid DNA, essentially taking on a greater-- - Second mutation. - Stronger presence in his body than what has come before. And so this becomes kind of like a post-puberty, pubescent story, and we see that the web start forming naturally inside of his body, which is always the most wonderful sperm-laden metaphor. - Yeah, yeah, I remember it. - Can't control himself. - Sure, yeah, spreading everywhere. - I mean, they make a point of calling them spider hormones. The spider hormones are surging, not like the spider DNA or the spider whatever is taking over. So yeah, it's not a complicated metaphor. - What did you think of how it was portrayed in the movie? - Made a lot of sense, you know, in general, I feel like there's a lot of attention paid to puberty and then no attention to paid to what happens after and our bodies are always changing, as you know, 'cause you just fell off the cliff. Are you off the cliff yet? - In the motherfucking canyon. - Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Do you have any corrective lenses? - No, but like my, I got the reading glasses situation. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm rapidly headed there. So I thought it made a lot of sense and is, you know, like a pretty neat literalization, not just of like it's hard to grow up, but also the battle between being Peter and being Spider-Man and who are you gonna be? And can all of these weird crazy scientists help you? So it worked. I like your interpretation. You wanna try it out for the people? - Yeah, it feels like the whole movie is about Peter Parker trying to find the right SSRIs, you know? Like the whole, the inhibitor that we talked about that he, you know, he observes that Bruce Banner is using and that the idea of manipulating science and technology to get your hormones in the right perfect balance. Like I'm not sure how literally the screenwriters were thinking of this idea, but it reminded me a lot of talking to people who have had these experiences where they're just like, I was off. And now I'm fine. And because I found what the right mix is for me, and it's a very common experience for a lot of people. And I thought it was pretty clever and like, it's definitely communicated that as Peter was getting older and getting frankly more depressed, dealing more with loss. - And the true villain in this movie is loneliness. - Yes, yes, yes, yeah. - And the impression, you know? - I mean, the impression. - And he stopped on, yeah. - Yeah, I lost my girl, I lost my best friend, I lost my aunt, like I lost all these things. How do I deal with it? - Yeah. - Can I make a crude, give like the audience a crude understanding of like just my general feeling and my connection to these movies? You guys ever have a friend that you have a lot of history with. So the friend makes inside jokes. You find the jokes funny, like legitimately hysterical because of your history with that person. And then sometimes there's a third person in the room and they go, that's not that funny. Or they go, it's kind of funny. They go, yeah, it's humorous, but then why do you find that person so funny? - Is this to you on this every episode of this show? Is that what you're saying? - No, but what I'm saying is that like for me, humorous is just you might as well just walk into the ocean. - Yeah. - That's just like, yeah, not as good as you. - So for me, when I look at some of the stuff that's happening on the screen, like for Spider-Man, even in Spider-Man 2, they do this exact same thing in the reverse, which is Spider-Man is going through something emotional so he actually loses his powers. If you remember, he can't see anymore. The webs aren't coming out because so much of who Peter Parker is, is connected to his emotional state. Remember, he's trying to be a human being that has all of these relationships and has all of these people that he cares about and also trying to save New York City and be something more than what he is. And then also another thing about Spider-Man that is fundamental that this movie hasn't really struggled with as much, is he's also always coming to terms with his power. Spider-Man is a much more powerful character than sometimes he is able to be. He pulls his punches when he is finding people. He doesn't use or can't control some of the aspects of his Arachnid DNA that really make him almost a god tier character. He's super strong and super capable. And this is the film. It's been done in other movies that kind of wrestles with that. Like Spider-Man in his final mutation, how does he just not control what's going on emotionally in his life, but the damage he can do if he's unchecked. I thought some of this stuff was really well done in the movie, actually. And they contrast it. And I think it really explains neatly why the Punisher is there. I mean, the Punisher, the Frank Castle character, and Spider-Man do have a long tradition together in the comic books. They're often pitted against each other. They have this uneasy alliance. John Burnthal has been playing the Punisher for a very long time. Never like this, his version of the Punisher is very orated and very violent. This one is PG-13 and pulling his punches on F-bombs and not quite going as far as he usually does. And making sure. Having a lot of comic relief. But this movie gets Spider-Man right all the way up against the wall of how violent can Spider-Man be. How will he kill? Like without the black suit. Without something like taking a moment. Well, it is, I guess this version of the mutation. Yeah, he's becoming a man spider instead of a Spider-Man. And I mostly like this. However, I feel that this movie is really indebted to two movies. And I was thinking of this immediately. I don't know if this occurred to you guys. I saw the movie sitting next to Joanna and we talked about it after I saw it. The first one is The Dark Knight, which is the movie is immediately communicating like this is a darker Spider-Man movie all the way to the point where in that opening tank chase sequence, like the tank literally flips upside down into a building, a brick wall. And it is kind of almost feels like it's re-creating the truck flip from The Dark Knight. But just the sense of like there's a little bit more gravity and seriousness in this Spider-Man movie. The second one that I feel is unmistakable is The Matrix. That there is something about being the chosen one, harnessing your power, finding balance, particularly in that final conclusive battle sequence when he's like, I'm both, when he communicates. He's both Spider-Man and Peter Parker. The fight sequences with the hand, I haven't even mentioned the hand. Another canonical Spider figures. And even small stuff, like the Jean Grey body jumping telepathic trick that she does, which resembles the agents moving into people's bodies. Or Fallen. Or Fallen? Good shout. Denzo Washington, film. Yeah, good movie. But there's even a moment literally in the movie where Jean body jumps into a helicopter pilot and takes off of it. It's like the same scene from The Matrix. And I don't know if Descendant No Cretan was watching The Matrix or something, but there are a lot of sequences where I was thinking of these movies. Honestly, not a bad thing. The Matrix is 27 years old. If you're going to borrow from something, it's kind of a cool idea. But it is interesting that in order to kind of like evolve the character, it needs to lift some of the sentiments from other movies, because I think we, as viewers, are kind of trapped between the two things that you're describing. One, the Holland films that we know. Right. This is the fourth time we've seen him. They're a little bit brighter, a little bit chirpier, a little bit more. Like Mr. Stark, Mr. Stark. And then the Spider-Man that we know, which is like this 20-something guy who's trying to figure out his love life, who's trying to balance his career, and also has this huge burden of being Spider-Man, I feel like it was mostly pretty successful. I don't know. I'm kind of torn. It's weird to be like, I'm the old guy now who sees The Matrix instantaneously when I'm watching a movie, because when you're a kid, you don't know the movie references and you have to kind of catch up to them. And now I'm like, do the 25-year-olds know that he's Neo? That's what they want you to feel. Do you think they'll enjoy it more or less if they know? I don't think it really matters. I mean, it's just interesting to put me as a movie watcher to get to that phase of my life. You and I were talking about before we started recording how, and it's a little bit because after we saw this new movie, then we went back and did research. But I had a hard time remembering this movie before we recorded it. In fact, we rewatched the trailer just to refresh our, Okay, oh, so there's this happen and there's that trucks. and there's the hand and there's like the punish or splash thing. So I will say just in terms of the set pieces and bringing all of those and the movie action that you're seeing on screen, if you're not there for the comic book, "Nurtory of It All," and if you're not there, being like, "Oh my God, it's the dark light," or the Matrix, I don't know that they're the most memorable, and I do feel like some of the action stuff, just until you get to the hand, blurred together a bit in my head. So to answer a question of will they enjoy it if they don't see those things? I mean, maybe they'll enjoy it more because they're not looking for references or maybe it won't feel reheated or maybe the action stuff falls a little flat until you get in person. - How did you feel then both of you guys about "House" and "Daya" and "Ned" are used in the movie and how that story is communicated of them eventually reuniting? - I thought that it was really well done. I thought that there are times in the movie. Those are the characters in this film that challenge Spider-Man the most. Everything else is just an obstacle. - Yeah. - Like everything else is just an obstacle. Spider-Man's gonna win, he's gonna get over this, they're gonna get through the punishment, he's gonna get through the hole, he's gonna get through the hand, he's gonna figure it out. This is the one part of the movie to where you actually don't know if he's going to be okay. That's another central thing about the character, which is not really being sure if Peter Parker is going to figure this out. He kind of does, but the movie doesn't give it to you. The movie, they are reunited, but not in the same way that they were. The end of the movie gives you hope that it could happen. So all the personal investment that you've made into the character of Peter Parker and really the kind of Scooby Doo like Dr. Strange says element of his friend group helping him. Not everybody was a gigantic fan of that 'cause once again, it's kind of like Spider-Man by committee, but that was the thing that worked the most because-- - I'll be the guy in the chair. - Yeah, that was the thing that worked the most because that was the thing that undergirded the first three movies more than anything else. Like him and his friends. - Mid the very end, when he does the handshake with Ned, I did tear up. So clearly that worked for me. Even though getting them back together and getting Ned back into the mix is a little labored. I thought the way that they used the MJ character and they used the Jean Grey of it all and her specific powers to bring MJ back into his life was quite effective and upsetting. - The false start setup is an excellent scene. Yeah, that's like one of the best scenes in the movie. - I think a lot of the scenes, like even when Spider-Man comes back from this triumph and she's sitting there reading the letter, you're like, oh shit. I think most, they're married. So I think I think they have great chemistry. - They have great hopefully, you know, for them. But like, I think-- - Did you watch the GQ Spider-Man trivia video that the cast did? - No, I don't see it. - It was really, it was very entertaining, but where they were asked questions about Spider-Man lore and it was a whole cast and, you know, unsurprisingly Tom Holland got most of the questions rights. And day I got a couple right. John Bernthal and Sadie Sink barely spoke during the entire quiz. - I really? - They seemed to not know. They were in the Dobbins chair. But watching Zendaya, how much she loves her husband was really interesting, 'cause she was just like leaning into him constantly, laughing, like turning, making side jokes to him. Like, and I agree, you can kind of feel about the movie. Like they just, they vibe. They have a thing and when they're together in the movie, the movie is really working. And you really want them. You really want her to wake up and remember, which is a credit to the storytelling. - But also a credit to the storytelling that she, there's not a, I mean, it gives you the faint and so it kind of gives you that moment and takes it away from you. - Yes. - But then MJ herself is just like, I don't, I don't know that person. - It's really, yeah. - Yeah. - It's really, it's, it's like very smart and kind of. And she's like, I'm sorry, but that's not gonna happen. Good luck. - And he's gonna have to do it like he does everything else. Spider-Man does the hard way. - I think, you know, me connecting to the movie is obviously, like I said, part of my experience with the characters and part of that. I also, when I rewatch Spider-Man too and rewatch the original Spider-Man, I think these, think the movies are close. I think this is by far the best one of the Marvel MCU Spider-Man that they've made because it's really to me the only faithful adaptation of the character itself. Everything else was to me to get here. - Right, Emily Wilson over here. I don't, I honestly don't, like we've, we've had this conversation on the Midnight Boys. We had a very ill-fated Midnight Court against. - Doesn't like drumming either. - So like I honestly have enjoyed the Tom Holland Spider-Man but have never really completely bought in because of how much they leaned him on other characters. This, whereas there were some team ups, Spider-Man was on point, running point at every time. - Yeah, it's interesting to think about that. And I guess when we talk about ranking in movies, we can discuss that some. But I feel like part of the reason why they did it this way is very logical because there were two other, very recent versions of Spider-Man that were more interested in the adult Peter that was dealing with some of these issues. So they had to differentiate somehow, right? - I don't even think it was that. I think that those other Spider-Man don't have to worry about being woven into a larger universal narrative. - That's true. - So what makes more sense to do right here is because you already have Tony Stark who is the big swinging of the MCU. - Look at that self-edited, that's swinging away. There's a lady in the room. The big swinging of the MCU to bring Spider-Man in a character who is infinitely, infinitely more culturally relevant than Iron Man was at that point in every way. It makes sense to have Iron Man shepherd him and like steward him so that Spider-Man doesn't get in the way of the perfect arc that you've created for Iron Man. He comes in under Tony Stark so that when you kill Tony Stark in in game, everybody is not thinking, oh, we still have Spider-Man, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? So it's the same problem that kind of Batman is Superman ran into because it was like, you bring Batman into the Superman movies. It's a Batman movie. This is a Superman movie. How do you split it? You think you want both people in that movie but you really gotta do it, right? So this Spider-Man had to fit in to something that other Spider-Man having. It was their universe. This universe up to this point hasn't been his. - Yeah, but it struck me also how much the Marvel tone has changed from the equipiness of Avengers 1 and 2 and even Spider-Man homecoming and Holland is kind of like the apotheosis of that and he was such a fit and cast into a universe that had already been established by Iron Man and R.E.J. and all of these people and the jokes or whatever but that's what he's doing. He, in the first three, he's doing very quicky stuff and he's really good at it. - And that's very, to me that's very true to Spider-Man, the wise cracking web slinger. That's a key component in the comics as well. - They've never really got it right in movies though. Only, you know, really got that right, Garfield. Garfield was the Spider-Man that was like, you pull out the knife and he goes, oh my god. Oh my god, my weakness, small knife, small knife. And then he turns around but he was the guy that got that right more than anyone. Toby McGuire's Spider-Man is so emotional and so it works. But as far as that version of the character. - The interesting thing's just dragging him across three movies. - That's fine. - That's fine. - She always does it, Kiki forever. - Yeah. - That's right, I agree with that take but we can litigate that momentarily. Um, I, let's look a little bit more about Jean Grey. - Okay, so she can control minds? That's what it is? That's what she's doing. - Telepathetic, telekinetic. - Okay, so let's put that in. - She can move objects with her mind. She can control people's mind. She can influence behaviors. She can, it's powerful enough. - To mind control. - Stop time, freeze time. She, she has. - How is she, because time is a construct? And it's just what's going on in our mind? - She can make you, okay. - Have you ever seen the original X-Men? - Which one, the ones with Patrick Stewart? - You ever see when like, at the beginning of the second one, when everybody stops and you know that Xavier is about to come into the room because Xavier is the world. - Well, I, I don't know until he comes into the room, but yes. - Well, as soon as that happened in theory, we started clapping because we knew Xavier got the role in. But like Xavier is the world's most powerful telepath so he could literally could be in like, Wrigley Field watching MVP candidate, Pete Crowe Armstrong. - Please do not, do not, do not talk about that in front of me. Please, for the love of fucking God. - What's he on? - It's the five year anniversary of that trade. - That's really today. - That's the cup that when we were at Wrigley last summer, you were just like, so he's a bit like, he used to be a, he's not one of that. - He's a bit like, he's a bit like, so he literally could be there as PCA stills three bases, hits two homers and they say, - I will, I will, fucking. - I just thought he could say who in the booth, which right on Lucas, what? - And so he could, he could, he could say it's tough. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I mean, look, it's like, look, the matter. - It's so bad. - That's a tough one, that's a tough one. - Where, what is your baseball team? - Out of dodges. - Well, that's not really real. - I know people like it. - But I mean, listen, I will, you still haven't taken me to Dodger Stadium. - We have to go. Well, I'm leaving town. So why don't you work on a step? tempered ticket. Well, they'll be here all the way. So, um, but, but yeah, so like he could be in Rigglyfield and just stop everybody at the same time in their tracks because that's how strong the telepath that he is. Okay. So she, she is also a telepath. She's obviously in the movie. She doesn't realize how powerful she is. The movie is about her learning the extent of her powers. Um, the movie does something kind of interesting to me, which is that it aligns Spider-Man and Jean, obviously, as outsiders, the movie is very much about outsiders. The X-Men story is about outsider people coming together to form a team and to better understand themselves in the world, the Audi, Audi, Audi, but Jean is a mutant and Spider-Man is a guy who got bit by a spider. Like they are different and part of what's interesting about Spider-Man is what is a mutant? Immune is you're born that way. Okay. She was born with telepathic powers and they make they may reveal themselves as you get older, but they're special earlier on historically. Spider-Man is raised with like a human morality, a human experience. Well, Sue, are you, are you born that way? Is it a genetic trait? So earlier on in the history of Marvel, this group of beings called the Celestial's. Okay. Oh, so this is just straight Greek mythology. Oh, literally. Yeah. All the characters. I mean, I look, you know, I do know that North mythology, North mythology. So they, but this is genetic play with human DNA. And like even the characters that have powers, this is really way to, this is like, we don't even talk about this on midnight boys. Even the characters who have powers, they have a gene that lets them unlock those powers. So Spider-Man was born different, because for there are people in Marvel that the reo after spider biting them would have killed them. There are people in Marvel that being exposed to the gamma, it would have killed them. Okay. But they have a different set of genes as designed by the Celestials. The mutants have are differently designed by the Celestials, meaning that their powers will manifest during puberty. Okay. Particularly in an L and it's in a specific way during puberty. It comes out during puberty. Okay. Are the Celestials different? Yeah. No, it's not all metaphor. Are changing bodies. So are the, what was it like? What was puberty like for you? I was about to ask. I was about to ask, has, have comic books gotten to period menopause yet? Like, what's up with Diana? Like, you know, 42. She's a god. Oh, that's right. I know, because she is. She's probably doesn't have to deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who's a, who's a demigod? You know what? That's a woman of genius. They kind of deal with this gene will definitely go through it. Yeah. Uh, uh, uh, those hot flashes will be insane. No, no, no, no, no, no. Before the hot flashes, there's just, yeah, no, no, no, you know, kind of went through this. They exploited a little bit in watchman a little bit. As you watch, uh, like her, like, Carly, good, you know, a doctor. Get older talks about a little bit, aging superhero. Okay. Heroin. And you, she talks about a little bit, some of the stuff that they go into it that much, but overall aging. Uh-huh. Uh, because these characters are supposed to be perpetually young. Sure. It's something that comics don't do very well. Yeah. Unless they want to kill a kid. This is, this is something that distinguishes this movie is like, I was gonna say, like, it's actually older. He's older. Yeah. This is closer to Perry Manopause than, you know, puberty in terms of, yeah, I was just like a different chain. It was a little bit of a sadder return for me for, for, for Spider-Man. That was sort of what I was thinking for him. I was like, oh, I'm like, Emerald year. Uh, I was like, oh, hey, Chris Nolan's Emerald year. Is that true? Yeah. He's also a Leo. It was his birthday this week. Wow. Yeah. Damn. Did you know it's our Emerald year? Lot of Leo's. Jupiter's in our house of something. I don't know what the hell is going on. Uh, it's like, it's just, it's our time. So just get, get ready, get on board. Yeah. Um, the other question I want to ask is, are the Celestial's different than the people that they made that movie about with Jim, with that Chloe Jaldra. This is a movie. No, they're in the movie. Yeah. That's the part. That's the thing that's emerging from the Earth. Those are Celestial. Yeah. Because I remember going, like, yeah, yeah, I know. You know, you're nerd. I know Greek mythology. And so every time I go and I'm like, oh, you're doing this one, you know, once every three years, they tried to decide to acknowledge every time you see a movie of the last eight years in theaters. But that movie was not called the Celestials. What was that? The eternal's are creations of the Celestials. So the eternal's are just like the literal Greek gods. They're like Zeus, Hera, like all of those people. The sort of the turtles will be closer to the Greek gods and the Celestials will be the Titans. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. I mean, as soon as you said Celestials, I thought Titans. Great. Okay. Spider-Man is different, though, because he's grounded in a changing experience. He's not like Superman where you're like born to do it. Yeah. It doesn't get bitten. No, he is a demigod. Spider-Man is one of the characters. And it's interesting when you listen to it, to Stanley and Jack Kirby talk about this, is that part of the reason why we have mutants is because they got sick of inventing ways for characters to get their power. It was you went on a space mission and you were exposed to something and now you can stretch it was you were bit by a real act of spire. It was you got it's gamma rays or whatever. You're a Norse god. They just went, you know what? They're 13. You get the powers. Yeah. And then they can just talk about like whatever the powers are. And that's what the mutants became. But also it also became really interesting social commentary which the X-Men has always been, which is this tension between mutant kind and human kind, human's ability to kind of like discriminate against mutants and try to control mutants. And then mutants wrestling with their genetic superiority and whether or not obviously the central tension between Magneto and Professor X, whether or not they want to live alongside mutant kind or rule it and run it. And even in this and even in and even in this in this right here, that is something that the character of Jean Grey is actually kind of dealing with because she has trauma and that trauma is enough for her to really do in this movie, some ghastly things, a person gets hit by a car, a taxi. That was when in the movie, I started to think maybe it's not Jean Grey because like Jean Grey is a character that I can't see even through all of her trauma. A lot of times if the dark Venus is not controlling her influence in her, just like killing people for her own. I would welcome an X-Men story that features a little bit more hard-edged storytelling. I think that's what they're going to do. I think that would be to see the real berserker rage of Wolverine, to see the real like side-clubs accidentally killing so they didn't Logan. But you know what I mean? Like in the wider MC, one of the things with the MCU, I mean Amanda was gesturing towards this. These have been very quicky sort of candy-colored movies and invariably when you do this for long enough, you have to evolve the kind of story that you tell endgame had great stakes and people died. But even then there was a lot of jokes and this is a much more dour and solemn movie, as I said. And I don't want it to be totally joke machine, James Gunn style movie. But I don't want it to be depressing either. And so I think striking the balance is really challenging. I think it's the primary challenge of this movie is what tone we meant to hit between zippy montages of Spider-Man fighting canonical bad guys. And you know, this guy who lost his best friend and his girl and you know, figuring out how to deal with his hormones. And basically an end cell bed for good. Oh, yeah. I mean he is. You know, a movie this is also reminds me of taxi driver. Oh, tough. I mean, he's just like alone in the weird attic, but he's not with like a lot of, but he's not an in-sell is an involuntary celibate. He actually gets hit on by the girl in his apartment and goes, no, I don't want that. Yeah, I'm stressed out about MJ. Yeah, that's tough for you to call Peter Parker in cell. I said in cell, but for good. Yeah. He's with holding his, no, yeah. He's like, he's like stealing Hayden and Dr. Strangelove. Yeah, he's withholding his essence. Very um, uh, you know, I think that there's one thing that tonally these movies, superhero movies in general are dealing with right now is that the MCU and other films. Remember, this was a criticism of Zack's universe. A criticism of Zack's universe was that it was $2.00. Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder. That's right. Uh, Zack Snyder. You're the first name. He's my husband's name out of your house. I think he can write a bad. He's a hell of a writer. I love to see his take on Ant Man. Um, so, let's see that paycheck. I love to see his take on that. Um, but um, that these, that these movies were easier to make. So glad you're here. When they were, these movies were easier to make when they were actually taking a little bit less seriously. What happened? What happened towards the end of the MCU's classic period is that people started to ask a lot of serious questions about superhero. They superheroes. They started to say, okay, where are the women? Where are the black women? Where are the Asian Americans? Where are the things and we were at peak woke air? What's I hate saying that? I'm woke is shit. And people were saying, yo, there needs to be a reflection of some of the real world stuff that we're dealing with in these movies and Marvel tried and God damn it. They fucking fell. Yeah. Just, I'll just be out, they, they, they failed. They couldn't do it. Okay. And so, and so I, I say this to say that like, it, I don't think that it was a bad swing. But now when we talk about the films, people seemingly have soured on the quickiness and all of that stuff that they loved about the MCU. They hated the Zack Snyder. I wish I knew his mill name now. The Zack Snyder universe because it was two DOWER! So now, I think-- - Exactly, Baron's night. - Exactly, Baron's night, okay. Now, I think-- - Just send those checks right over. - The films have to kind of find themselves and kind of figure out how they're gonna do what they do. I think even to be real with you, the Fantastic Four actually kind of struggled with this same type of push pull thing was the Fantastic Four bright enough. Was the Fantastic Four fun enough? - Yeah. - It seemed like they were fighting against themselves. - This sequence is in their apartment, that stuff is a little dull, a little sullen, a little like fate of the universe is really the crisis at home stuff that is really hard to balance. I think it's part of-- - And his brain that's too big. - Well, it's a great responsibility. Like being a spider-man. - Why hasn't Christopher Nolan made one of those movies? - He didn't make the dark night. - I'll tell you. - No, I meant Fantastic Four. I know, but that's still the best. - Christopher Nolan would be rich, it would be phenomenal. The thing that-- - It's called Oppenheimer. - That's literally called Oppenheimer. - That's actually, look at it. - Genius. But like the thing about that character is, in a lot of ways, and I don't want to come in here and shit on the Fantastic Four, but on a lot of ways, the failure of that movie, to me, is in the character of Reed Richards. Just a relentlessly fascinating character. - I agree, miscast though, that's really the biggest problem. - Miscast, the smartest man in the universe who consistently believes, and they almost always, they almost kind of did it with Tony Stark. - Who? - What? - Who, what? - I just know I was just remembering last summer, and I just, this shot from materialists where Pedro Pascale's spoiler alert, where Pedro Pascale just like sinks down. - Oh yeah. - Yeah. - Well, she asked how tall he is. - That's what happened in movies in, in 30 years, and has nothing to do with this conversation. - I wanted to know that movie much more than I did. I thought it was okay. - But anyway, to you, these sort of tonal middle grounds, it's a problem. - It's just part, it's their comic books. It's really, really hard to balance this stuff, and you're right, they work taking these movies more seriously because they've been so dominant for 15 years, and we expect a lot out of them. I certainly have, and part of the reason I've been so critical last five years is I'm like, I think you guys can do better at this point, not worse, and some of these movies are getting worse, and that isn't great. This isn't worse, this is not a step back to me. It's maybe not, it's definitely not my favorite, but it would have been very easy for me to come in and be mad, and I wasn't mad at the movie at all. - It's also hard to be, it's not hard to be that successful, but there is a real where do you go, because people want the exact same, but also something new, and so at some point, it's just they've been doing this for almost 20 years, and it's hard to please people the way that you did 10 years ago. - And you can't take breaks, right? With James Bond, we've been making those movies since the '60s, but what we do is we take a couple of breaks, a couple of years, break, sometimes five, 10-year breaks. - It's about to be a six-year break, yeah. - Six-year breaks, and then you pull back, and you go, okay, new director, new James Bond, everything are new. Everything's new, right? With these movies, because they're essentially one gigantic comic book, and now they're rolling and the economy of it, the economics of it are so crazy, it's difficult to actually do the type of reset that they would need to do. - I know, so you're getting into where I think we need to go. So before we go there, we'll get into what's next of the MCU box office predictions, and now our Spider-Man movie rankings right after this. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Every episode we break down what's worth your time, what to watch, what to skip, what to put on the list, but some things on the list aren't exactly fun to get to, like sorting out your coverage. It's not a blockbuster. It's just one of those things that matters. That's where State Farm comes in. One of their 19,000 local agents can walk you through your options in person over the phone, or through their easily accessible app, and help you get the coverage that's right for you. So you can get back to the fun stuff, like arguing about movie rankings, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Okay, so you've set up a really interesting series of discussions, 'cause there's a bunch of things that now are going to happen, that have to happen. What you're hinting at is how, essentially Tom Holland can't get off the Spider-Man train, and it seemed like in some reporting recently, including that your husband did, like he's been weighing in his mind whether to continue to be Spider-Man, and what, how much longer can a man be a Spider-Man like this? No one's ever made four movies as Spider-Man, until now. And so I think that there's a question of, I'll phrase it this way. Coming out of the movie, I turned to Joanna, and I said over under two and a half more Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. So what do you say to that? Does this include? Not Doomsday, just Spider-Man, Colin. Two and a half under. Under, what do you say? Two and a half under, I think he'll do two more. Exactly, yeah. Joe said over, which I thought was interesting. Okay. And I just need him to make the Fred Astaire movie. I think he's going to do that. I know, but I think he's going to do all that stuff. He seems to have the prestige bug now that he's done the Odyssey. So you guys, that movie had better work. Like if he's a phenomenal dancer, very likable, that is a beloved American cultural icon that hasn't really been dipped, that movie better work because if you really want to know the reason why he's playing Spider-Man, again, it has nothing to do as more to do with Cherry and the other movie where you couldn't, where you could hear people's emotions and all of those films than it does with this. Yeah. Like it, like his other stuff hasn't worked. It hasn't worked. And so, and so he, this happens. People catch cold ones, they pick the wrong scripts. He's talked about it. But one of the reasons why he will play Spider-Man, he loves the character. I think he has different expectations of the characters in the movies after having worked with Christopher Nolan. I really do believe that that's real. But the Fred Astaire thing will be a referendum on whether or not Tom Holland is capable. It exists outside of Spider-Man, yeah. I don't really know. He was my least favorite part of the Odyssey, you know. And I know some of it is the character, the way that it's written and what, you know, what purpose it serves in the story. But I also just thought his performance was not very strong. The exact opposite in this movie. And this movie, I thought he was great. I think this is his actually best performance as Spider-Man, whether you even like the story or not. Because he's given more to do. I'll say just cynically I'll go over and just say, I think he'll make three more of these. Because he's really good at it. And what we have seen is that other Spider's stories can probably live alongside these movies. The Spider-Verse movies are happening and are working. Let's all get prepared to see a real Miles Morales in Doomsday, you know, like I think that there's a chance that something like that happens. And then all of a sudden, we're getting the no-way home version where Holland is the old guard, you know, 10 years from now where he's-- Right, I train you the new one, that's nice. Yeah, you know, like all of that is in play, too. So was your question to Joanna? In the main two Spider-Man movies, he the main Spider-Man. Because-- I didn't specify that, yeah. Because that, you know, I could see, he'll show up. He's definitely Chris Evans vibes where it's like-- And even if he tries to quit in 15 years, they're pulling him right back in. That's right, that's right. Well, it also depends on what works, right? Like, because I can make this thing argue for Chris Evans, I think Cap had a pretty final arc in in-game. And maybe if Chris Evans has found tremendous success outside of this, maybe he's not picking up the shield again. Did you see ghosted? I did see ghosted. What do you think? Terrible. I saw, so I'm not only that one, but you know what one? That Collega Light. The room one where he had to like rescue Santa Claus. What was that called? Red notice. Red, no, no, that was red notice. Red one, red one. It's close. Completely absurd Sunday, 1 o'clock watching. Like you know what horrible movie? Look, completely absurd. The afternoon on Sunday, when you're just relaxing, man. Do you know what that's like? Critical year goes way down. Like you see jumping jack flash on TV and you go, Jesus Christ. What feels so amazing to have caught jumping jack flash. But I say, like, but I'll say about him though, like same thing. I think you have one more furthering Spider-Man's adventures. And then I think you make a last one where potentially Peter Parker could be killed and mirroring the story that happened. I will lose my shit. And Miles Morales can take over a Spider-Man maybe. Depending on how Miles Morales is received. So, kill my sweet little boy, you know? Yeah, okay. I want to talk about X-Men in Doomsday, but since we're leading into this, I am a little dubious of what you just suggested happening that quickly because this movie could make $2 billion. The tracking, I think the domestic tracking is around like 300 plus million, which is fucking insane. Now, some of it is like premium large formats and tickets cost more, but the last Spider-Man movie made 1.922 billion. It was, you know, coming out of COVID. But before Top Gun Maverick. Yes. And this was really the movie that was the first mega success. December 2021, yeah. Do you think this movie makes more than that movie? Yes. Yes. I-- We're back plus inflation. I think you're right. This would be fascinating to me because I don't think that this movie is going to be-- is not going to have the same highs in the theaters that no way home represents. It's impossible for any Spider-Man movie to have that type of highs. No Spider-Man movie could ever have it. Do you think people will go see this movie three and four times? I think so. I think there's, I think there's just no way to, if you take, The multiverse is, the highs of no way homer is much about real world business as they are about the story. You just, there were things that you couldn't have done before, you weren't gonna be able to do them, put three people in a movie together. Now you have all your Spider-Man. Think about right now if Christopher Reeve were still with us. And like at some point, Corinth's wet is like in the Fortress of Salitude and he walks in like in his 70s even in the suit. He's just like, you're gonna go nuts. Like you're gonna. What about Brandon Routh? Brandon Routh, all of them, even if you saw all, I mean, literally like that, that that is Henry Cavill. Henry Cavill, that would really go crazy if they did something multiversal and they brought here to New Cavillin and people would go crazy. George Reeve. Isn't Henry Cavill on some sort of Netflix IP show now? And now he's like, he's not the punisher, but he's like the witcher. He's not on that anymore. What's his name is the witcher now? Wow, Henry Cavill keeps getting written off. What's the hymns or the brother is the witcher? Liam Hemsworth. Liam Hemsworth is the witcher? I think that he's the witcher. What does the witcher do? I don't really know much about the witcher. Like I think he won't. I'm reaching the end of your knowledge of this stuff. I think that's a video. Yeah, I don't really watch it. I don't fuck with Harry Potter. So like, so what I was saying is the highs of that I think are probably, it's just stuff that we didn't think could happen. But I will say, maybe Miles can maybe get there for some people, perhaps. But to me, at some point, this version of Peter Parker will end his watch because this version of Tom Holland, I think has caught the serious, I'm being taken serious, actor, bug. And if that Fred Astaire movie does go crazy and he does get a nomination and the dancing is all it is and he's not going to want to put the suit back on. And I think that's more prevalent with these characters. The only guy who I know that loves doing this that would pay 50 times, it's his worth. Love store would be in Thor, play Thor until he died. Everyone else kind of tries to get out until he gets pulled, until they get pulled back in. I got to respect like the, there's something beautiful just about finding your purpose. And just being like, I am content. Very Australian, I guess, just on Thor. And I don't know. And here I come as Thor. That's a lot of caveats, I think, to what you're describing. You know, like Connery went back to Bond in the '70s, you know, with the hair piece going big time. So it's a real never-say-never 'cause he is really good and people have a big relationship to him. I'm really, really interested in the box office of this movie, not just 'cause I'm interested in the box office of every movie. But okay. Do you have it in your league? I believe so. Sorry, that was dismissive. It's not a little league. It's a large league. There are a great many. Do you do this? You do like movie fantasy drafts and all that sort of stuff? I think it's awesome though. That's great. It's really fun. Remember the hat back in the day in like the 2000s, they had like you could buy like fake stock in movie stars and movies and stuff. Sure, Hollywood stock exchange. Yeah, we should do that at TMZ. And I did that of course. Yeah, it was fun. I am interested in this one particularly because I do think that there will be a contingent of people who go to see this movie who are a little disappointed by it. I don't think it has that quite that same emotional like wow factor that no way home does. And I think this is a better made movie. Like no way home has a really kind of like ugly CGI finale to it, you know, it's like it's not it's not a great movie but it has like a lot of it delivers a lot of feelings. No way, no way home is to me infinitely more flawed than this movie is. And like I just don't think it's high as yours high. I agree, I agree, I agree. I think the last. I'm the Andrew Garfield saves MJ. That's amazing. Oh, what's wrong with you? That's phenomenal. But like there's not a moment in this movie that hits that moment to me. Of course. But once again, like is like when they hug at the end before they have to go. Come on. All of that's awesome. But like there are large portions of no way home to me that just like when you go back, especially on the rewinds, they just aren't that good. You're literally just getting to all the villains back. They're so funny. That doesn't work at all. What happened to Happy? Happy Hogan. Well, what did I write in the document here? I mean, what the what this movie does, I think it's somewhat less successful is it introduces Eliza Colonzeas as Sergeant DeWolf. And she kind of occupies the Happy Hogan role in this movie. It's sort of like adult commissioner, I wrote commissioner Gordon here, actually. Yeah, same thing. Like this sort of law enforcement figure grown up who's kind of keeping Peter in line. And it was a little bit like who's this lady? I was watching a movie. I was like, they're throwing a lot of new characters at you. They're throwing a lot of new setup at you. Okay, so let's trace it out here because Florence Pio is in this as the Black Widow. We've even mentioned her. I actually really enjoyed her. But again, I was like one more character. Yeah, she's very funny. She's filming in one location. And her office is a Russian bathhouse. And she literally is on the Zoom call. Yeah, it's really funny. She's great. And so does she remember that Peter, that Spider-Man was an Avenger? Or she just like, well, happy doesn't because where's Happy? Happy does remember that Spider-Man was an Avenger? Well, then why isn't he in touch with? 'Cause he doesn't know that Peter is Spider-Man. Yeah. But we don't see Spider-Man in touch with Happy at any point. Do we? I'm happy he's just not in it. He's just not in the movie. Yeah, why not? He just completely abandoned what's that about? Well, because he only knows Spider-Man as Peter, right? Well, no, he knows Spider-Man. Like, remember at the end of No Way Homes, how did you know? I know it through Spider-Man. Right. It's the crazy about it. Right, yeah. But there's no Peter Parker. So, Happy might be into some Spider-Man. But who knows? Like, what, like, where Happy is right now? Stark is dead. Right. Is like, who's taking care of all of that stuff? Right. Also, Peter just learned how to bioengineer everything all by himself. He's a genius. He's a brilliant kid. That's why he got bit by the Spider-Man in the first place. He's like a rising science student. Right. But to me, it was MIT. To me, I know. Yeah. Because he, you know, lobbied on the bridge for that nice MIT admissions officer to reconsider them. But Tony still made the suits for him. Yeah. OK. So-- But then not in this film. When was that transfer of knowledge? I just, you know-- He made a suit in Spider-Man far from home. Remember, he uses at the end of the movie. He's coming back. He makes-- he uses the engineering stuff to, like, make changes to all kinds of stuff. OK. That was always one of the reasons why I thought pairing him in Tony was cool. Because they did have that. They were both kind of, like, many, like, inventors. You know, they had that kind of spirit of science in the character. This is a reason why people were against, in a comic book, Peter having organic web shooters. Because organic web shooters, like, the web shooters are the demonstration of the genius of Peter Parker. And so, like, a lot of times when Peter Parker is fighting, he thinks his way through the fight, not unlike Batman and stuff. OK. Yeah. I didn't love that Peter wouldn't realize that there would be a static electricity from his eyes in the movie. You know, we're-- Well, that's-- MJ got to be a woman in STEM, which is really important. So-- It was important. Like me every day. Which, to be honest with you, is-- which, to be honest with you, is something that happens in this movie, right? Because you have those types of characters surrounding him. A lot of times, you have to sacrifice his genius and his character to, like, spread the ball around a little bit. The self-evident and also lightly offended way that you both said, well, he's a genius to me. Was very special. Well, I won't say this, though, like, you know, Batman. Show me the test. Like, like, like, Batman. Either Batman can do it or he can't. Like, like, you know, he's a genius. He's a genius, you know? Like Captain America, not a genius. Yeah. If he built it, you'd be like, you can't do that. You're good at leading and telling people what to do in fighting. But he-- I mean, I know that-- Not a genius, but-- I know that he goes to the special science school, you know? But there are many geniuses. This is the special science school. Men hat in science school? No, isn't it like Midtown Science and Tech? Something like that. Sure. Yeah. It's a genius. Okay. Um, this movie doesn't have a stinger. And-- Doesn't it have the location tracking thing that doesn't count? I mean, it's barely a stinger, right? It's a stinger that's not one. We're showing-- showing that there's something happening in space. Um, what do you think that meant? You think that mean there's another Spider-Man that has been picked up by the Spider-Tracker in space. So, uh, I think I've written a lot of theories and watched a lot of theory videos on it. Obviously, it leads in the Secret Wars, uh, and Doomsday in some kind of way. Maybe there's another Spider-Man in another reality, uh, maybe it's picking up venom. Like, who knows? That wouldn't make a whole ton of sense. But it's obviously picking-- The symbiote, like, a huge part of Secret Wars? Yeah. Black Spider-Man? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if they're going to try to bring Tom Hardy in and fuse all that. That stuff back together. They could. We went back on the moon. I mean, they're shopping right now. As the, uh, that would be-- Like, Googling Tom Hardy's Secret Wars. I previously Googled the Punisher, and I really, I was happy to see John Berethal. Can we talk about Frank Castle real quick? Sure. Yeah, I have no idea who that was. And that's the one where I just kind of nodded. And, you know, the movie communicates that John Berethal is a rough round the edges, mentor, like, figure to Tom Holland Spider-Man. And that's enough. That's all I needed. But I had absolutely no idea what, like-- That's not really what he is in the comics. They're usually odds, um, even though they're old. I've learned that from the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page. Yeah. Obviously, they have very different approaches to fighting crime. One guy wants to blow shit up and shoot rockets at them and the other wants to save lives. - Okay. - I don't think Burnt Doll is a great punisher. I know that that is really going against the grain. - Yeah. - Now he's never coming on this podcast. - I've never asked him to. - I'm not really worried about that. - I know that everyone thinks he's great and perfect, and maybe it's just because I haven't really loved his appearances throughout these Marvel movies, but-- - Did you watch the show? - Parts of it, yeah. And I'm like, to me that was a little too hot and this one's a little too cold, and we haven't gotten to just right. And to me, he's not like a super-quipy character, but also I don't think he's like the new metal, like super, like, I can't describe how it doesn't work to me about the more serious, hard-edged version of him, but I never really clicked for me enough that like Dolph Lunggren did or whatever, who was a Thomas Jane was the other one? Like, I don't know that they've quite nailed it yet, but-- - I literally think that he was born to play the role. - And a lot of people say that, and I understand it. I just, I've never felt that way. - Yeah, so I think it's interesting in this one, is 'cause I look at this, this is not the traditional portrayal of the Punisher, right? The Punisher is an X-Marine who had a psychotic break after his family was killed by the Mafia, and decides he will kill every bad guy that he sees. He is an expert hand-to-hand fighter. He is a sensational marksman. He is just a born killer, and he is killing to feel the hole in his soul from the death of his parents from the Mafia. So Punisher don't play around. It's a part in Captain America's Civil War, which is part of the Civil War comic, where civil wars were all these characters fought each other. And so Captain America's side has to go out and recruit villains to help them, 'cause they're down some people. Where the Punisher walks into the movie, sees a walk into their meeting, sees all the villains, and just kills all of them. - Oh, okay, just like-- - Just setback, yeah. - Yeah, exactly. And then Captain America tries to beat the shit out of them, or does beat the shit out of them, and Punisher won't fight back. So like, he's just like, bad guy, see the bad guy, kill the bad guy. I thought this portrayal of him was interesting, because it seemed as if no one can get through Frank Castle in his universe. Daredevil wasn't able to, - To emotionally connect with him. - To emotionally connect to him. And I thought it was interesting in this one to have this be a display of what Peter Superpower really is, which is that Peter, through his intention, and his goodness, and his method, can make, he can soften people. He can make people kind of like, see themselves as human beings. So even Punisher, who is a killer, like is a criminal and a killer, when he's around Peter, he can't help but be a little bit better, which is like what you've seen throughout these movies from the character. Now, I will say to a lot of people that just watched Punisher one last kill, in which he kills probably, probably around 70 or 80 people, maybe more in some of the most brutal ways, and then see him come back in this one, where he won't even say the fuck word. It's probably a pretty knee jerking situation, even though at the end of last kill, he supposedly learned some lessons. - It's an odd choice, I think, for that to have just come out, and then for us to be whiplashed into, like I said, PG-13. No shots at Bernthal, I'm a big fan of his, but hashtag not my Punisher. You more or less were the same excited for Doomsday, at this point. - Yeah, I mean, the stuff that we saw at Comic Con, I think changed everybody's mind. Like, the first trailer from Doomsday came out, and people were lukewarm on it. - Okay, well, let me, before you any further, and talk about that, 'cause obviously we saw that Doomsday trailer in April, why did they put that trailer out? - Which one? - The one that was publicly released. Like, why did they actually, why was that the, two weeks ago? - Two weeks ago. - Two weeks ago. Why was that the trailer they chose to put out? - I don't know. - Like I really don't understand it. - It seems, it's clearly bad trailer. Like I wasn't as offended by it as other people were, but every single criticism that people have of it, I completely understood. Whereas the one that they put out in Hall H, you would have to not have a pulse, like to not be interested in the movie after this. It's more grounded in the character of Doomsself, which the first one is not at all. Meaning, even though Doomsday's central character, and he does something at the end of the trailer, that is so fucking cool. And so badass that you wanna go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. So I have no clue how they did it. - You wanna go watch him for two and a half hours on screen. - So depressed that you two and a half hours is not like the standard runtime that we reach for when talking about one of these films. - Yeah, I don't, I can't share this information, so I won't say what I'm gonna say, but I have noticed something interesting about run times relative to the rest of this year. I'm wondering if it will change to the game. I'll leave it at that. I'm gonna see Doomsday, I hope it's good. I've been on that. - I am also gonna see it, and I also hope it's good. What will my definition of good be? We'll find out. - Well, you know what you said earlier, about Thomas Cronifer? - Yes. - Like, there are some of these movies that are nearing masterpiece status, right? There are some of these movies that are perfect emotional rides and perfect storytelling, and we've had a couple of those highs in the comic book, era. Dark Knight, obviously, is a very self-serious kind of examination of the morality of people, what you're willing to do, how far you're willing to go. So Nolan, obviously, is on a different level with being able to craft narrative in the human condition, but then you also have perfect comic book movies like Guardians of the Galaxy, or, which I think is a phenomenal film, Captain America, Winter Soldier, and then, even to a point, the combination of Infinity War and Endgame, which offer a perfect arc for two or three different characters. For Thanos, for Captain America, for Iron Man, right? But the main thing is having fun at the movies. And you can't have fun at the movies when you're insulted by how bad and cynical something is. I get it, I understand, and there have been some of these movies that are bad and cynical, and it breaks the deal that the audience makes with the film. But if you go and you have fun at the movies when people flying around, you probably won. Like, you probably came out ahead. Like, I recently-- I wish my mind could work that way. Unfortunately, I'm trapped in my own, within my own superpower of overthinking about every single movie that's ever released. But that's my burden, you know? That's my great responsibility. I overthink these movies too, but like, I think that like, I think what you just explained is representative of 97% of people who go to movies, which is like, I would like to have a good time. Yeah. And I think this Spider-Man movie is an interesting test of that, because it is trying to be a good time, but also trying to be a serious examination of a lone man, and also trying to further the story in some ways that are cynical and some that feel natural towards a progression. And that's why it's a mixed-backed movie. So what's interesting about this is I also think that this has a lot to do with kind of what-- obviously, your level of fun that you have for a movie has to do with what will house movies are in, right? Like, my father loved Westerns. So there are some Westerns that like are-- to me, slow, whatever, but my dad loves being in the world. Like, the whole-- 1000%. Yeah, the whole disclosure they think is like, a lot of people went to the movie. I thought that the movie was bad, but then a lot of people just went-- like, my mom went to it. She was like, I have fun. Yeah. Like, like, I have fun inside of the movie. And she came away, having like, half the shit in that movie is completely unexplained. And like, to me, for a movie that's trying to be cerebral, didn't make a lot of sense. But there was also just some cool shit in that motherfucker that made it like fun for my mother and my sister to go see, and they really enjoyed it. So part of this is like, what you bring into the movie with you, if it's just about fun. Yes, it's funny that you bring that up. So we can use this as segue into our Spider-Man rankings. I just re-watched Spider-Man 3, the third-raming movie, which has one of the toughest reputations of the Spider-Man movies. And obviously, signal the end of the Toby McGuire-ramy era. And I thought a lot of disclosure day when I was re-watching it because I was like, this movie has some script problems. It's a little baggy at times. It's a little bit like it seems like it's going down a road, and then it doesn't fall through on some of the storytelling instincts. It's right. And then on the other side of it, there's some stuff that Ramy is doing with the action and the set pieces, where I'm like, well, there's like one person on Earth who can do this. And I felt the same way watching Disclosure Day. I'm like, there's one guy in the world who can make a movie that looks and feels like this. And it's a similar kind of balance that you're describing about whether or not you can have fun with the movies and what you're going to the movies for. And whether a movie can sweep you away or not, despite having-- a problem with the plot, or feeling like a character has been jammed in there to serve MCU long-term purposes or whatever. But isn't that just the fact that, like-- And I'll just say that seeing Spider-Man 3 again, I was like, this is better than I remember. And the same thing happened to me. But isn't that part of that just the fact that because of your understanding and craft and your relationship with the filmmaker, that there's only so bad that the movie can be? That's exactly what I'm saying. I can only ever feel so low on a movie because I see what this person does in a way that really moves me. - Now, let me say something about that. Is that is respected to me? That feeling is respected to me. Everywhere else except for this genre. Because like, I'll tell you what I mean. - I am to me. - Like, I am called a fanboy because I simply admit to the audience, I go look. If people, man, when I was a kid, if there was a part of a sitcom where somebody acted like a superhero, like I would go like this. - Right. - Like, it didn't matter who it was. It was fucking mighty mouse. It was whatever it is. If you had a cape and you were flying around, like I was enamored with. And I completely admit that for me, my bar of enjoyment, not quality. This is not, this is a tasting. It's not a, it's not a critical thing. My bar gets lowered when people start flying around and using their powers. Of course, they are tremendous disappointments. I think though, everybody has a different version of that. - Yeah. - I think everybody has a different version of that. People who love the horror genre. They love horror movies. So, where I go, yo, not only was that girl test, it was offensively bad. So, I just, I think that, that I think across the board, that is the thing for, like, for you with, like, some of those. - Well, no, I was going to say that I think, because you posted it in the turns of, you know, is there no prestige attached to your genre? Where? - No, no, no. I don't think my genre is, is, is, is, lends itself to prestige. - Well, yeah. And I think that, I think the kind of, the YA and romance fans, which I think are actually distinct from romantic comedies at this point, but are very passionate fan base. And with, like, very fine rules about what happens in those, and those movies, books, shows, whatever they are. And, if it checks those boxes, or does something well enough that speaks to something that they care about in a very specific way, I think they accept it, and they are, like, you know, they're fan girls, essentially. And I think it's understood kind of similarly. The horror people have done a very smart trick where they've elevated, you know, their passion into Sinophilia. And so, as soon as something hits like a certain trope of, look, this amazing kill, or this amazing, you know, technical shot, and there, you know, is a lot of technical expertise that goes into all of this. But once, once a horror movie hits certain checklists. - This can change, though. I mean, you're making a very smart point. A horror, though, is grounded in a historical cinematic achievement. - Right. - You know, like Frankenstein being a film in the 30s that changes film forever, or Dracula. And then you move on through time, and the extra-sist becomes one of the greatest and most successful films of all time, silence of the lambs winning best picture. Like, there is this, now, this might happen for superhero movies, probably less likely for YA. But you never know. It's just that there's not as much history to move against here, too. - Right. But think about the movies that you named, right? So, the extra-sist is, like, a morality tale that has to do with the existence of God, the nature of evil. Those are wavy things. Frankenstein, once again, another movie based on this, like, seminal texts that has to do with man's relation to creation. Those movies are horror movies, but they're also elevated tales of the human condition. Terrifier is not, okay? And terrifier is a perfectly absurd and fun ride. I'm fucking hypnotized by it. But that is also a movie that over the last 10 or 15 years has become a bell-weather in New Horror. And it's an insane clown running around and killing people and the horror fans, the true horror fans, they're loving it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, that movie, that franchise speaks to what Amanda is describing, which is, like, the synophilia of the gnarliest kill and the sort of, like, the extravagance of the Gore effects that are being done. I'm really interested in this. You're talking about this idea of subjectivity and it's not the personal preference, right? It's like, what's a specific kind of story that you like? What's a specific kind of story that you like? And what's one that I like? And mine is often like, well, I have a big relationship to the person who made it. And so I'm interested in the choices that they're making. So that's my subjectivity. So I'm going to be more forgiving of disclosure day, the same way you, what's an example of a movie that you were like, I'm willing to be more forgiving to be like this, 'cause it's in a lane that I really like. - I mean, I don't do it. - What was I about to say? - I have no clue. I thought you were about to. - I don't, I don't know. I think it's honestly more just-- - Particle magic. - No, because I don't really, I don't really care about that. - Yeah, go ahead. - Challengers. Like, that's a movie that, like, if you listen to Bill Simmons and Wesley Moore talk about it, they were like, this is one of the worst movies of the year. - Totally. - And you were like, this is right in my sweet spot. That's a much more acclaimed movie, but you know what I'm talking about, it's like that hits so many things you like. - He's asking, and like, what you're asking me. It's like, yeah, for the things you like in a movie, if they show up in a movie, then you respond to them. You know, and what I like in a movie is, you know, a lot of style and good music and handsome people, like maybe or maybe not fucking, you know? I'm all set to look at Guadagnino. And so. - I think I like that too. - Yeah, exactly. And so you also liked Challengers. And so sometimes the romantic comedy, you know, fills that void for me. Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes like a drama with people talking, fills that void for me. And sometimes it doesn't. Like, you know, my problem is not my problem, but the reason that I don't have any sort of reason that I'm not just like losing my mind all the time on this podcast as much as because I don't have anyone like genre. I just have like a bunch of hallmarks and different things and movies where I'm like, oh, yeah, they did this. And now I'm really excited. - Yeah. - But it really is just, what do you like and what do you not like? - Yeah, I try as best as I can. I sometimes fail, but I try to use the word favorite instead of best. I've used the word best many times, you know, in an effort to draw attention to something. But it's really more about like, what are you responding to? And I always find it interesting to talk about comic movies with you because I know there's a part of you that is like defending your younger self for having all your dreams realized. And then there's another part of you that is like, this actually makes me happy in a profound way. And looking for the middle is like where the truth lies. And I have my versions of that as well. I'm not, that's not a judgment against you. - No, no, no, no, I completely understand. I think that's very true. I also think this though, there's one thing that, and you guys know me by now, friends and colleagues for a while, one thing that, and this is probably a passion of, like a result of my ADHD, right? One thing that bothers me more than anything is when I feel like something is unfair, right? Like, take comic book movies out of it, a mob movie. There's only so bad if somebody walks into a room and goes, "Hey, you're going to be made today." I'm like, "Oh, shit, he's going to be made." - Yeah. - He grew up in fucking, a conarsie. - Right. - And the big boss told him to come down and get his pin. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? - I mean, sure, mine is a makeover, right? It's like, oh, like, oh, like, oh, we're going shopping. And I was like, okay, well, a montage. Like, let it roll. - And like, you are a mob movie fanboy. You've seen all the movies, you love 'em. And sometimes, I think that-- - Mine is an apportionator movie when a guy's writing his journal. Whenever that happens, I'm like, it's fucking on. This guy's writing his journal late at night. - Right. And so, whereas some of this stuff is sloped and it's so commodified, these are corporate-- I'm copying to it. These are corporately-owned characters that we're going to tell these stories every five years because we have to. - Yeah. - Because there's a specific value that's attached to it. We talked about this in He-Man. We had the moment, like, we're in He-Man. He-Man, not a perfect movie. But when he pulled the sword out and when I have the power, that was just like it wasn't a cartoon. And I'm sitting there, and I'm sitting there. In front of my girl, I'm like, I'm about to cry. - I was moved. - I was absolutely moved. So, to me, it's not very good. But in that moment, I was absolutely moved. I think I'll just-- I'll cop to it right now. Almost every single criticism of comic book movies has been fair, except for one thing, which is the criticisms of the fans of them. And so, like, every single thing that has been said has been fair. It is, like, fair and maybe more than fair. Maybe the comic book movie industry needed to have its ass kicked and needed to fail and scale back so that there was room for obsession and room for back rooms and room for the drama and room for people to go and expand their cinematic palette outside of whatever these studios were going to throw at people with a cape. I get that. I just think in the last-- and it hasn't happened here. I just think in the last four or five years, some of the criticisms of the fans and the people who are really dedicated to this has been a little bit unfair. I went to Comic Con and there's a company, this company right here and they make wheelchairs that is based off the comic book characters so that kids can go around the floor on battle cat and stuff like that. And I don't mean to be-- I mean, that's the best thing in the world. Yeah, I don't mean to be overly earnest. But we were talking about it before. I don't know how I feel about Comic Con. I might be above my pay grade, but it was a lot of people there that this is their whole fucking life. Sure. And I think that I'm a little bit probably overprotective of them. I think when you see criticism of the fans, I try to not criticize fans of things. Yeah, I don't do that. I think it's because when things are down, fans get defensive and we live in the time of social media. So you have a lot of interaction between people where they're like, you don't like what I like. fuck you. And then there's always like a small but there's always a small but vocal group of bad fans of any of any fans of any organized group of people. Right. And so when you start hearing from those, you know, but that's super toxic. Your point is your point is well taken. I was seeing about it. It really bothers you. Yeah. It was for six months of hobby bias. Three months of hobby bias. It's tough trade might be the best player in sport. Yeah. I'm sorry. I was just thinking about how I guess my version of of I'll watch any is really, you know, in anyone but you when they have the it was just not a good movie. The shower scenes that we're going to say. No, that's that's okay. No, the the climactic. Any movie with a shower scene I'll watch. I mean, you know what? Me too. See, I've never been African gone girl. Never forget. That's right. But when they're like in the Sydney harbor, and I don't remember if they're doing Titanic or they're doing something similar, but I yeah, on a boat. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, okay, so like the big romantic set piece of romantic comedy, no matter how bad it is. I'm like, if you went all the way to the Sydney harbor and you tried to film something, like, okay, I'm in. I'll enjoy it. Yeah. This is a good reminder that taste is subjective. Uh, it's very bad. Okay. It's it's not good. But but that scene they tried, you know, and they went to Australia. You can't take that away from them. Eleven Spider-Man movies. Okay. Oh, shit. You said you rewatched a lot of them or parts of a live. I watched parts of or all of every single one of them except for across the spider verse. And we did show into the spider verse to my four year old last week. You did you? Yeah. Did that play sort of? He was like a little scared a couple of times. Okay. Which one? Which one? Into the spider verse. Oh, I can see that. Yeah. The second one. I've done both with Alice. The second one is there's a lot of story. And it's very confusing. I was confused by it when I saw it. Yeah. Spider women is a lot to take in for a little kid. That being said, that movie is fucking amazing to me. And this is a hard list to do because I love the spider verse movies so much. They to me, they are actually the thing that gave me the feeling of reading the Todd McFarlane Spider-Man with the Combooks when I was 12. Okay. Where I was like, good God. This is scratching something so specific about inexplicable ineffable feelings that certain media can give you. And I don't know that I have that relationship with any other Spider-Man movie except for Spider-Man 2, the Remy Spider-Man movie. That is the one that I feel like is the very best of the live action movies. I do I do understand that that's a very common take that's but you know, you thought that this most recent Tom Holland film was the least of the four. You thought it was the best of the four. Yeah. I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I mean, I feel like homecoming was really cool and that was like a great reinvention of Spider-Man. I mean, it's great. And the Michael, the Michael Keaton money opens the door. It's perfect. Great movie moment. You know, we are, we are coming to it much like Emily Wilson and Christopher Nolan from from different walks of experience. Yes. How much of the text have we spent time with? And how much of the text do you need to see very specifically in in the movies? I have never had a Spider-Man comic, but I do have two little boys at home. So when I watch Tom Holland as a teenager, just being like happy go lucky and I would love to look like Aunt May trying to protect him, you know, and so I just like I mean help me Marisa Tome. So I just I don't have any preconceived interpretation of him. The Spider-Man as a teenager makes the most sense to me just like it's the easiest on ramp to a superhero because I'm not a man of a yeah and the most accessible superhero because like again, I don't wander. I don't walk around like feeling the burden of, you know, my greatness and my responsibility and my genius to people all the time. That's a man thing. So oh, quibble. But it's like we can explore that in a future. You know, like Batman, like, you know, I'm sorry that happened, but like, you know, I don't see it 45,000 times. See, this is this is a legitimate criticism. We don't have to see them die again. Yeah. Spider-Man. That's an OG Jason Concepcion tape that you never have to see that happen again. And that's and that's really sad, but I, you know, and now he's interpreted, you know, he's made all the he's inherited all the money in the world and has some gadgets. Cool. But I like Superman is just he feels like an outsider, but also an answer. I don't know. I don't relate to any of them. I don't get it. Like I don't like must be hard to have all that power. Spider-Man is just a kid trying to figure it out. It's cool. I understand. So that's yeah, he likes girls, but also, you know, he has some higher calling, but like how much of the time is he going to spend on girls? How much of the time is he going to spend on his higher calling? You know, relatable. So you got homework. Exactly. So I couldn't play football then. So I shouldn't do it now. Right. He's got prom, right? And his girl's dad, listen, is the is the prom guy. Yeah, right. He leads over the car with the gun. And you're like, you know, that that's a hell of a scene. That like it anyway. So it's just to say that that interpretation of Spider-Man speaks to me the most. I don't know Laura Harrier. Good question. I haven't seen her much lately. Oh, you know what? She was a Michael. Who is she a Michael? Oh, yes. That's right. Oh my god. She's a very important person in music history. In a extremely important person in music history, television film history. And all she gets to do when Michael is tan someone a card and then just like stand there. She was played by Vanessa Williams in the Jackson's and American Dream series, which is vastly superior. I've seen that to Michael. Yes. Yeah. So like, you know, she got more more to do then. I think she made it maybe directly produced it with the whole movie. Her life is so interesting. She's like a similar figure. Yeah. Anyway, uh, to me, the worst Spider-Man movie is the amazing Spider-Man too. I feel like it's not not really arguable, right? The momentation. Yeah. It is very, very unsuccessful. I love Andrew Garfield as an actor. I liked him in the first amazing Spider-Man. Didn't love. But I mostly agree with what you're saying in terms of like they hit a different tone. One thing right. Yeah. The second movie is a fiasco and completely agree. Totally torpedoed his run as Spider-Man. And frankly, Mark Web's career. Um, he has not been the same ever since. And, and, and was the catalyst for Sony getting into the deal with Disney and the MCU. Exactly right. Because they had to produce another one. They didn't want to make a sequel. And the best way to do it was either to make a sinister six movie, which no one was gonna go see. I really wanted it though. It's supposed to be Drew Goddard, who is supposed to make it. Yeah. I'm really fucking wanted that movie. Like the sinister six movies, which they, they didn't really want to do that. And they got into the deal with the MCU. So annoying though that we didn't get that movie, but we did get three Venom movies, Craven, The Hunter, Madden and Morbius and Madden Web. Yeah. You know, the sinister six. It's like the six main. I think you told me about them before. Yeah. But I didn't commit. I did commit Madden Web and the Pepsi can to memory though. So at least we got that. What's the second worst Spider-Man movie? This one was hard for me because it's either, and the animated movies are endless, right? Yeah. They're way at the top. Yeah. It's either Spider-Man 3 or the amazing Spider-Man 1. I agree. I think it's between those two. I think they're in nine and ten position, which, which goes first. So it's Spider-Man 3 is Thomas Hayden Church as the Sandman. That's correct. And I'm amazing. Oh my gosh. I forgot about that. With the greatest, greatest scene. Yeah. Brandon Church caught. Right. And then it kills Peter Parker. And it's when, and Kirsten Dunst as MJ is like on Broadway. Yes. Very, very clearly not singing. Yes. That's right. That's okay. She is. She has many other talents. I would say Mary Jane is mis-served by Spider-Man 3. When I was rewatching Spider-Man 3, I was thinking about how at this point in Kirsten Dunst's life, she had already made Marie Antoinette and was then like back on stage pretending to sing in Broadway. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I didn't make a 20th anniversary this year. And then I think amazing Spider-Man has the Branzino. Oh. That's it. Yeah. Branzino scene. Yeah. When he goes. Yeah. When they're going to dinner. Yeah. And he's poking in it. Yes. Of course. Good thing. It's good scene. I do like that scene as well. Yeah. A lot of questions about Gwen Stacy's wardrobe choices at her very grown-up internship. I did not have like the fingertips on the skirts rule. Oh, you're saying it was too revealing. Well, it's not only she wearing a shirt skirt, which is, it's fine, but then she's wearing, she's wearing knee-high boots that she is giving the tour for all the new interns. And she's wearing like sock boots, you know, like thigh-high socks on knee-high boots and shorts first. Yeah. We're making dress however she wants. Okay. I'm wondering if you're something bad. I would just like to say that I think that there are many settings in which we're that and your job, where you're the lead tour guide is probably not one of them. That's my tip. No, I'll let Emma Stone know what you said about her. Um, I think it's probably Spider-Man 3 and then the amazing Spider-Man, but it's like coin flip having just revisited Spider-Man 3. I probably go opposite, but I couldn't hate it. I couldn't hate it. I don't know what, you know what? Come on, Toby McGuire turns into Venom. That's fucking sick, man. It's kind of sort of does, but not really. No, don't for Grace turns into it. Toby McGuire. Yes. Don't move out. Where's the black suit? Yeah, I think it's probably, I think it's probably reverse. Okay, but I also think you think that it's amazing Spider-Man and Spider-Man 3. Spider-Man 3. I'm fine with that. I mean, that's tough for our Andrew Garfield, another Leo. Do you remember his press conference when he was cast a Spider-Man and he talked about how important Spider-Man was to him? It's the most eloquent an actor has ever been about being cast a superhero. He's so wonderful. Yeah. And he's great in the role. I just think that just it's actually almost not a fair comparison because there's so many climatic things that happen in Spider-Man 3 and the movie is walking in silly, but it's just it's kind of riding the fumes of the first two. Okay, so that's that's fine. I don't really care. Yeah. Okay. Okay, eight movies. I feel like Far From Home is probably next. I agree. Mysterio, I love Jill and Hall. It feels like just a little bit of a side quest movie. Now, you're picking from only good movies now. I'm a little lower on Far From Home. Okay, cool. You're picking from movies. I think I I'll say once we get to six is when I'm like I pretty much like all these movies a lot. I was a little more charmed by Far From Home. When I watched it this week, then I was previously. And obviously, like Tom Holland, but more than I you love Europe. This is why you like this movie. Well, they do you know, they they do Realtto bridge. I'm more of a academia, but that's nice. And I also thought the opener with you know, they have like the high school TV network do like a farewell to farewell video for all of the snap individuals that opens it and it was really, really funny. Yeah. But that's yeah. So I was a little charmed, but it that's fine. So the thing is it's clearly a Holland movie that has to go right here. And I think the other ones you just can't possibly make a you can't possibly put them right there to me. I think it's the least of the Holland movies, but I like it. I like it. It's also. The one tricky thing is this is where he ends and day I really figure out Spider-Man and MJ because MJ is in homecoming, but she's not. Yes, that's true. And she's kind of and so she's just being very weird and funny in Far From Home and spading off all her conspiracy theories and then figures out that he's there is another movie you would put here instead of this movie. Well, you're interested in Far From Home fascinates me. Well, I just listen, I did my homework. I refreshed everything. I don't know if it's my favorite. And I think of the Holland ones, you know, I put it there, but like I just prefer the Holland's to the Dobie McGuire. And I know you can't. It's so hard with Spider-Man and Spider-Man too because they started and changed movies. I listen and it's key key and it's the upside down kiss so you can't. Yeah, you can't put that lower. Yeah, and then the vibe of that movie and at the time of having so much fun, it just totally locked in perfect casting for. And then I think Spider-Man 2 is just a real like comics person versus not comics person. I just like I trust you guys, but I don't I don't get that at all. I don't care about Dr. Octopus. Like, you know, in the same way that you said when the big like the splash page in brand new day makes you come alive, I was kind of like I spent the time being like who's who is John Brinthal supposed to be right now. I just don't respond to it in the same way. But that's I think it's also to the to advanced point earlier like you're not a big horror movie person. And it's a great horror movie. It's a great Frankenstein werewolf movie where our guy just kind of is like transformed by his own creation into this demonic figure. And it becomes a very tragic story about Octavius in a way that is just like very, very good genre movie making. But it's like as much creature movie as it is. Yeah. Super. Yeah. We watch movie right? Yeah. The scene where he is being operated on and his tentacles come alive. Yes. And there's like slaughtering the doctor's scary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That that deepens the seriousness and the stakes every time Peter is on screen with him. It's good. But there's there's good Peter and Mary Jane stuff in it too. Yeah. You know, we're like they split up and she's going to get married to somebody else. And I don't spend her into is very high up there. We'll bargain. We're gonna have to bargain. Okay. Is there another Holland going here? I mean, seven. Oh, brand new day. But he it's his favorite. So I don't I don't really know what's interesting. Brand new day is going. I think brand new day is third. Well, hold on. If you're not, if you count the animated movies, then no, we are counting. And we did the animated movies. We didn't count. We didn't count the. We didn't, when we did ours, we didn't count the animals. I think we should. So obviously not Peter, just Peter Parker, though Peter Parker is. So brand new day is not as good as either one of the animated movies. I was actually less into a crosses by the verse and other people were, but brand new days, it's because it's going to do too much a little bit. Yeah. But it's very busy revisiting. And I was like, oh, this is really busy. But brand new day is not as good as either one of those animation style on the music and the scope of that movie, though, it's very cool. I just remember when all the Spider-Man start like glitching or whatever. I had no idea what was happening, but yeah, respectfully. So then seven is going to be, it looked cool on those tough. It's probably, probably between homecoming and brand new day. I want, I want a caveat. I like homecoming. We're in pretty much really good movie zone here for my taste, at least. I would, I think homecoming is, I think brand new day is better than, better than the rest of these. I would go homecoming. It's easy and tough. I will go homecoming, but I mean, I'm a guest. You would go brand new day. Yeah. I think I would go brand new day too. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. Just put a thing in there. Hey parentheses, band disagrees. Okay. All right. Should put that on the card, actually. Okay. Top six. Now you're now, now you're in the end game. Is it Spider-Man? Lock. The original or homecoming. Oh, it's home. It's homecoming. It's homecoming. Then Spider-Man. It's, and then, and then Thunderdome. And then we have to figure out what we're doing. Okay. So, okay, I'll put, you just put a manager, sat here next to the town. No, then five is no way home, and then Thunderdome. Yeah. I will put home, yeah, I'll put home coming there. Five, I'll put no way home. And then we're in, and then what's left to the, the two original live actions and the two animated ones. Okay. Well, just, and now you're, what's like the rest of the spycast? I'm just sitting here. I give you a lot of leeway on, on Nolan. So you're gonna have to roll with me on Spider-Man. That's like, I, I truly don't care. So go ahead. It's like, just to commentate. Man, I think it's a cross Spider-Man into Spider-Man too. Oh, a cross Spider-Man into Spider-Man too. So this is something that people don't agree with me. I have Spider-Man one and two is almost identical quality. Okay. So I actually, from a watching perspective, slightly prefer Spider-Man one because of the green goblin stuff, which I think is perfectly done. However, that's a personal preference. And the reality is Spider-Man 2 is a higher filmmaking achievement. It is. It's like a, it's a, it's a, it's a slightly better movie. I prefer Spider-Man to a little bit. The question would be really of that top two lists. If we're being for real, it's Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse actually better than Spider-Man 2. That's a pretty perfect movie. I think that, I agree with you. I agree. To me, it's a five star movie. Like I said this, I said it when we were doing the show. That movie blew my mind. Y'all going viral if you I put, if you I put it number one. But I think, I think, I think there's a, if we just being for real, if we're taking our personal preference out of it like I already have, you could make an argument that into the Spider-Verse is slightly better than Spider-Man 2. I've already said that this, this Spider-Man 2 is a thing that just doesn't speak to me in the same way that it speaks to you guys. And Spider-Verse does more so. But I also opted out of this conversation a long time ago. What does the letterbox have? What do the people say? Actually, I'd be curious to know what the average rating is for those movies. It's 4.4 into as a 4.4, which is pretty much as high as you see a movie go. And then beyond beyond beyond beyond beyond. The live-action Spider-Man 1 and 2 are both a 3.9. Beyond and across are both 4.4. Is nuts. If you do something, I mean, you know, the Spider-Verse movies move me. Let me ask you this. They move me. How much does culture fit into this? Because from that perspective, Spider-Man 1 and 2 are some of the most consequential, you said this. Yes. There's some of the most consequential movies in modern film history. But in my newsletter today, the first Spider-Man film, it arrives in '02 in the year when everything dramatically changes. When you get Harry Potter 2, Lord of the Rings 2, Men in Black 2, and then you get a ton by Big Fat Creek wedding and signs and eight mile and you go down the list of all the huge movies that came out in 2002. But Spider-Man specifically, which was the highest grossing movie of that year, a movie set in New York City after 9/11, that movie, and the flag is billowing behind Peter in the movie when he's racing to save Mary Jane. That movie shifted honestly for the worst, in my opinion. What Hollywood thought its mission was? That doesn't change how much I liked that movie. I loved that movie when it came out, and I still do. And I was a kid who loved Sam Raimi movies when I was a teenager. It really did. And the globalized box office really kind of kicks off at this time where we see there's more money to be made in Europe and Asia from our films maybe even than in America. But that's not, I can't hold that against it either when we're having a conversation with this. What do you mean, what will hold what against it? The fact that I think it kind of tipped things in a negative direction for Hollywood for 20 years. I mean, yeah, because you like see, you know. It just became franchise city. The Marvel guys go, okay, well, we gotta go get a $500 million loan from Merrill Lynch and do our thing. That's right. With the characters we have. That's right. Me too. They. If you look at that, they go, that's money that we that we are not making. All right. I mean, I'm good with that. There's going to be, there's going to be controversy, but I'm good with that. So Spider-Man 2 number, well, you really could swap those, but you want the internet going crazy because we put into the spider verse at one. I just think that y'all, yeah, I'm probably going to get love. I'm not going to see any of it because I'm going to be on vacation. Me too. I don't accept any of the clabs when they're super heroes of all like, don't come into the meme posts with your ideas. The meme posts are our space, okay? Keep your bot army stuff on top of it, okay, I am the moderator and I said, that's our space. I just, you know, like someone stumbles across some random algorithm and suddenly I got to hear their feelings about like, who ghostwriter is. I don't care. You know, this is my. Yeah, I get it. I heard I say something about ghostwriter. I heard that this idea is like a lot of it. I mean, they talked about this. A lot of it's coming from Ryan. From Gosling, yeah, and I heard that the idea is phenomenal and people are being tightly up about it. I'm really talking about it, but I heard that the idea itself is pretty much just share what it is. They didn't tell me. Oh, okay. Well, that's a great way to get people talking about it, but hey, I heard this idea is phenomenal. That's the idea. No one's talking. No one's a lot to say. You know, that's how they talk. Yeah, sure. Like this, this is getting made because this is like the greatest thing we've ever heard. Okay. Tell me a little bit about it. Can't do that. I'm like, but, but, but, and I'm, I'm susceptible to that as anybody, but like, it is still ghostwriter. Yeah. He's a guy who dies and turns into a skeleton who bursts into flames. Like, I got her. How cool could it be? We know what ghostwriter is. I repeat the shit, but I've been burned like five times. So, like, they, they told me the same thing about it. It's strong. Leavey's still directing it. That's what yes. Say no more. Okay. Whoa. Okay. Free guy. Um, that's good. I mean, we have, I'll say this just for, I'm just, I just strong armed at the end here. This is, I was like, this is what I want to happen for consistency sake. You probably got to put Spider-Man 2 number one, but I'm being for real. Just on quality of movie, I mean, but I left into the Spiderverse blown away almost a tile. You know what else I like about into the Spiderverse? What is it made me think about? Well, of course, I love the representation of love miles, but I actually was like, Chris Pine could have been an interesting Spider-Man casting him as the Peter Parker who is kind of vanquished at the beginning of it. Like, there's a lot of little choices in the movie that kind of gratify your old school Spider-Man fans and also make it a very modern telling, which is really hard for comic movies to do as we talked about with this brand new day conversation. Like episode of this show, incredibly deep, lots of personal lore shared, lots of deep discussion of subjectivity as a driving point for taste amongst podcasters. Mm-hmm. You guys, no, just podcasters. I just be honest. I'll be honest. I'm going to go over well when I say this. If I wanted to, just based on the numbers that I've put up in terms of what we talk about when I'm on here. Oh, wow. Third chair. If I wanted to, I'm not going to, if I wanted to, obviously, I don't have the stature of a CR. I don't have the bona fides of a Tracy, okay? But if I wanted to just based on what happens when I'm here, I could make the argument that I'm third chair. Okay. CR has his own lore here at the ringer. Nobody fucking with that. It's really, you know, starting to come like, come for the fucking, you're like a Lancelot almost. It's a Lancelot King Arthur thing starting to happen at this moment. Do you think that Bill, here's the footsteps? I think he definitely hears him, you know what I mean? That's why he tried to throw a little assist just to see what he was capable of, you know what I mean? Yeah. But so. Do you think you checked the numbers? How well that CR episode do? That's one of those ones where you bring somebody in and just go, okay, let's see if you can sit in the big seat just to test the check, to check your temperature a little bit. So I'm not, I'm not about to act like I'm on the, and then Tracy brings, you know, play right. God, you know, got to come from a royal family of the Hollywood and wife is beautiful and talented and he's great and all of that stuff. But we just talking about quality of what happens on the show and where we go. I don't know, man. I respect you. I respect you staking that. I could, I could see a world where I'm in there. I'm kind of like the Miles Morales of the third chair, I got my own universe. Sure. Yeah. The same. We got busy today. We did the rankings. I'm going to do very quickly. I close my time. I have no idea. I have no idea. Number 11 is the amazing Spider-Man 2 number 10 is the amazing Spider-Man RIP Garfield. Number 9 is Spider-Man 3 number 8 is Spider-Man far from home number 7 is Spider-Man brand New Day Van disagrees number 6 is Spider-Man homecoming number 5 is Spider-Man no way home number 4 is Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse number 3 is Spider-Man number 2 is Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse and number one is Spider-Man 2. Oh, you didn't switch it at the end. I didn't know. Okay. I have to stand on business. I'm a real Spider-Man. Okay. Thank you. Third. Third chair in waiting. Higher learning. The ringer versus tailgate, rewatchables, what else is in the mix? That's stuff. Lots of great stuff coming out. Lots of great stuff. Okay. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on this episode. Thank you to Lucas Kavanaugh. Thank you to Amanda Dobbins. I'm going on vacation, imminently. Yeah. I'm serious. Yeah. All the content pushes over. So you got a little low. Yeah. So actually it was more than happy to go to and half with you guys because I won't be doing this for a while. Great. We do have an episode coming early next week, which is our Canadian movie draft, which we taped live in Toronto a couple of weeks ago. That's right. You'll be able to hear that. And then Amanda is in the big seat. I am. Can I tell everyone? If you'd like to. Yeah. We're going to have a special guest, Juliet Lippmann, on the show. Oh, yeah. We're doing one that only while you guys were doing that. Honestly, Juliet Lippmann was texting me about a specific location used in the film One Night Only, which we will discuss along with the 21st century romantic comedy cannon. Get ready. Mmm. I'm excited. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Juliet. Yeah. I'm excited for the listeners at home. I'll see you guys in the other side of my vacation. (upbeat music)