19: Spermageddon: The Decline in Male Fertility with Dr. Olivia Pojer

By listening to the Conscious Fertility Podcast, you agree to not use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition and either yourself or others. Consol your own physician or healthcare provider for any medical issues that you may be having. This entire disclaimer also applies to any guests or contributors to the podcast. Welcome to Conscious Fertility, the show that listens to all of your fertility questions so that you can move from fear and suffering to peace of mind and joy. My name is Lauren Brown. I'm a doctor at Traditional Chinese Medicine and a clinical hypnotherapist. I'm on a mission to explore all the paths to peak fertility and joyful living. It's time to learn how to be and receive so that you can create life on purpose. I have a special guest today with us on the Conscious Fertility Podcast. It's Dr. Olivia Poiet and she's coming from Austria, Karraz. This is the Conscious Fertility Podcast and we know a lot of our listeners are looking to grow their family and quite often the topics are unconsciousness, spirituality, quantum healing. We always get requests though about practical things on the physical body, what can we do? And we share on this podcast that it is dual as in we're looking at mind and body. So we're not neglecting the body. It's just that we're getting pretty good on the physical, what supplements to take, diet, lifestyle, IVF, acupuncture. People are aware a lot are more aware of what they can do physically. And so we emphasize the spiritual mental emotional, the consciousness side. As promised, every once in a while we'll have an episode where we go back to the body and something that we think is missing or needs more intention. And this is why we have Dr. Olivia Poiet on with us today because her focus is on male factor fertility on the men. Now a little background, she is both a physician, so a medical doctor and also holds her diplomas in acupuncture and in Chinese herbal medicine. So I always joke that she's kind of like Dr. 3.0, she's got both, she's truly when we talk about integrative medicine, when you go to see somebody that or your go and have an integrative approach, I should say, where you're getting both the Chinese medicine naturopathy and the Western. Well, she's in one, she is integration, she is Dr. 3.0. She's also a fellow of the ABRM, which stands for the acupuncture and TCM board of reproductive medicine. And she does have her own integrated fertility clinic in Austria near Gras and she has a big focus on male fertility in I've met her in the past because she is the organizer of the International TCM Congress called Dao in Gras where I've had the opportunity to speak and she's also attended my integrated fertility symposium in Vancouver. She's also an author of two books. I have a signed copy of these books, one is called Secrets from the Chamber of Jade, which is Treatment of a Rectal Disfunction and Lack of Lhabito using Chinese medicine. And her most recent book that came out in 2022 is the Integrative Treatment of Male Infertility. Olivia, welcome to the Conscious Fertility Podcast. Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to talk to you and to kind of get a platform to spread my message. And you know, it's kind of fine. First of all, I got a letter of listeners, no, you're fine. Like I've seen you do talks where you have like stuffies, letter sperm, right? It's Sam the sperm. Sam the sperm. So I've seen you do lectures with Sam the sperm. You've had topics called sperm I get in. So I like how you take a topic that it's important and serious and you also kind of make it approachable and easy to listen to and get involved. And so thanks for doing that. I want to ask you some questions around male factor. And I want to start off with it seems like most of the clinics are focusing on the woman. What's your thought on this? Like are men being underserved undervalued when it comes to fertility and couples wanting to grow their family? Yeah. So that's a huge problem because you know, on average, it's 40%. So if a couple can conceive them, it's about 40% due to women's issues. Yeah. And 40% due to the so-called male factor. So there's something not working properly with the sperm quality. 20% is due to both. System well, not fitting or working perfectly together to grow a healthy embryo. But when it comes to the clients that really attend fertility clinics, then it's actually far more than 50% due to male factor in fertility. So if you look at the fertility register, which we are every country does in Europe, and you look at the percentage. So it's over 60% that they have to attend a fertility clinic due to male factor in fertility and still, especially in the conventional, so Western medicine. 90% of the treatment and of the diagnostic things done focus exclusively, quite exclusively on the women. We are missing kind of 50% of the puzzle because as you always keep saying, it takes two to 10 go, right? And if we are missing one half of the couple, we're not doing a proper job. And it just them, it diminishes the chances of the couple to actually conceive. That's a huge problem with Western medicine. But to be honest, in PCM, for example, and I doubt it's something different in any other network, anti-medicine genre, then we really do focus on women far too much as well. Yeah, and I don't think it's by choice. It seems like men just don't seek out medical care. And even when they get a diagnosis that it's related to the male, it's been my experience that it's the women that still come into my clinic. So I'm sitting across from the female partner and she's telling me, yeah, we have issues. It's the male and the guy's not even there. And I think that's global for the most part, is it not? The men are coming into the treatment as much as the women. Yes, but I think that is because there is just too little awareness that there are treatment options for diminished sperm quality. And often it's due to not even the fertility doctors being really aware that, for example, XC wouldn't solve the problem finally. So if they do kind of any reproductive technique, they might get the couple pregnant. But what we're really aiming for is the so-called live birth rate. That means that the couple finally leaves hospital with a healthy baby. That's what we should always aim for. And emphasis on healthy too. And so you brought up a point here that it's the awareness. And this is why I wanted to have you on the podcast is many when people are in a couple relationships. So heterosexual male female relationships. The guys are coming in saying when they come in or they're partnerly, she's saying that he's fine. They said he's fine. And I remember in past lectures from you, you're saying that the semen analysis is not a great indicator whether you're fertile. It can really show you whether you're having fertility issues. But a normal semen analysis today in the 2022 era is not necessarily a picture of health for sperm. Can you elaborate on that and tell us what's been happening with the quality of sperm over the last couple of decades and why you don't use the semen analysis where they look at shape, morphology, speed, motility, and count as a checklist that you're okay. Well, actually, I do use it because that's the standard test for male fertility, but it doesn't really dig deep enough. So that's I think important to emphasize on. And you know what's interesting because very, very recently, so two days prior to our podcast now, recording now, there's a study published a huge one, which is kind of the update of one that was done in 2017 and caused the title sperm again on. So that was a huge wow because in 2017, the results of this huge meta-analysis containing almost 50,000 semen analysis throughout the world's population that resulted in that the sperm quality overall dropped by 50%. So that was when the sun then had the headlines for McGatter. So now the updated version didn't really make it better, but even more dramatic. And I'm really looking forward what the headline of the Sunday Times will be this time because it shows that with the updated data. It's a drop for example for a parameter called the total sperm count by 61.3% over the last 40 years. So that is actually well, it leaves nothing to say but using we're having a huge problem. Right. And when they when this drops, do they adjust the range then for the semen analysis? No, no, well, they kind of do. What did it do is that they lower the standard values. So that's the key here. So when the semen analysis is normal, when you're in range in 2022 or 2023, when you're listening to this, if you're seeing if you're in range, you're telling me that like 40 years ago, you would be called infertile or subfertile that they wouldn't have been in the right range, the normal, if you range. Absolutely. So you can say every decade, they kind of put out new guidelines and new standard values, but they keep being lower in every decade. So what was pathological in the 90s is absolutely normal nowadays and that can't be. It reminds me of my kids in high school that they how they all get such good grades and I think they're 90s or what we would have called 70s or 80s when I went to high school. So they've changed the standard. They're also smart. This generation was such high grades, but I think they've changed how they grade people. Let's bring up this idea of awareness. So what I think I heard you say earlier is that men can be up to 50% or more contributing to the infertility diagnosis, yet men are being really treated well as in to change their sperm parameters. We have a strategy you call the X-C. So that's when they inject the sperm into an egg. So it's like IVF, but they take it one step further and put the egg, put the sperm into the egg, but that's a like a bypass as a strategy. And you're talking about we want to help them get to live birth and have a healthy baby. So the men are contributing to what I've heard. I'm just checking it with you. This is your expertise. Even if you have a normal semen analysis, some of the reproductive urologists are suggesting that the men can be contributing to what's considered an unexplained diagnosis for the couple or even early miscarriage for the couple. So what you can't see in a semen analysis, is the inside quality of the DNA of that sperm. So it's the paternal genome. He will pass on to his future child. And you don't know whether the parameters of a semen analysis, whether this DNA quality is good or is rubbish. So for that, for the tests would be needed, which are seldom done, unfortunately, because they are expensive. And for that, the WHO hasn't really found standard values for that. And I think that's a huge problem. You can't see which and how many DNA recommendations are normal and how many are not normal. And even the tests are not really that standard size. You know what I mean? So that's a problem, obviously. I think what we're going to get into shortly is what people can do, what men can do to optimize a sperm to help increase their chances to have that live birth and a healthy baby. And so we're understanding then that the semen analysis is kind of rudimentary. It's an important test. You still do it. It's kind of one of the better tests that we have. However, I think I've heard you say before, it's like reading the table of contents of a book. You haven't really read the book, right? It's really superficial. And so these other tests, DNA fragmentation, other tests, and more tests will develop can go in deeper and look and find out maybe there's an issue with the sperm quality. However, that's not easily available or affordable now. I want to share there's good news here because you're like, okay, men are men are over 50% involved and we don't have a good test. But there are things that are not invasive that men can be doing if you're trying to have a baby. And I'll even put out a Olivia that if you're just wanting to grow your family and you don't even have an infertility diagnosis, these are things that the male partner and female partner can do because we're going to talk about lifestyle diet, all these things to help your egg and his sperm reach its peak for chili potential to give your child the best chance of a good health blueprint, right? And so these are just good lifestyle and natural ways to improve your overall health, including sperm health, right? This is kind of a proactive. Absolutely. And men and women are a little different we know this, right? Olivia, men are women a little different. Okay, you're going to go with that. And women have the theory, the understanding is women have other eggs from when they're born. But men are constantly making sperm. How many sperm do we make per heartbeat? I remember it's a pretty high number, right? Yes, it is. It's 1000 per second. So that's a huge number. Yeah, that's right. I've heard a thousand to 1500 per heartbeat. So yeah. And this is good news in that if you've been, you know, smoking or your hot tubbing and just not a great lifestyle in your sperm does not look great, there is an opportunity often just by changing lifestyle diet supplements, acupuncture, I know you do Chinese herbal medicine, these are things that over time, because men are making a new sperm that you could start to have better sperm production because of what you've done with your lifestyle. Absolutely. So lifestyle issues show up a lot in semen analysis. So what do you do? Good things? Yeah. To your body or whether you harm your body by smoking, drinking, whatever, it will result in the parameters of the semen analysis. Usually, well, I got to tell you a story is 10 years ago, a couple came to me and he was a smoker and we suggested he stopped smoking because our goal is healthy baby. And so we thought this would be great to quit smoking. And he said that his reproductive man or chronologist said he didn't have to because his semen analysis was normal. So you don't agree with that, right? You don't agree with him smoking. I'm saying, you don't even if this even even if the semen analysis is normal. That was 10 years ago. This is why I wanted to bring this up because what a livy is going to share and in her latest book on the integrative approach to treating male factor using Chinese medicine is this idea that there are it's just there's not a lot of awareness that men can do things. And so I'm really curious what you call your bag of tricks in your book that you can share with the audience. Like what are the things or in your clinic when a couple come in and they're and they're been delayed getting pregnant. What is the bag of tricks that you have that you are recommending and offering the men in your practice? So first thing is what I ask them whether they take drugs. So often it's the case that just the normal medics the normal drugs they take against their hypertension whatever harm and dispermed production. So maybe there's some issues that can be optimized. For example, if they take a lot of pain killers, a lot of pain killers such as ibuprofen for example, they lower the testosterone production which then has a further diminishing effect on sperm quality. So I go through that. So just be aware that not for any little pain take a pain killer. So maybe that's an advice. We are really overtaking pain killers and not being aware they could harm sperm quality. Second thing is do the men do sports? If no, that's bad, if too much, that's equally bad. So there's been studies out that for example running or training for a marathon, for about two hours a day, five days a week really harms sperm quality and drops the normal values in the human analysis by 50%. So that is I think a very important advice because there's a lot of guys training and wanting to do marathon. That's kind of one thing on a male bucket list. It seems to me. So if you train for that, that's absolutely the wrongest time to try to conceive or even worse and go for any kind of artificial reproduction. So that should be postponed because you know that drop of the human quality is reversible of course. If you start doing sports in a normal way and a normal amount then that really recovers again. So the sports analysis to me in men is really essential. Then of course other lifestyle things just like doing a lot of pop tabs or I'm going to saw us regularly. You know the optimal production temperature of semen is 34 degrees. resale seals, I'm not really good with the boron hive. So actually it's lower than the average body temperature. And that's why our testicles are outside in the scroll dome. Because really they don't like it too warm. And every race of the temperature of the testicles kind of harms the sperm production. So be aware. And if you put your cell phone in your pocket of the trouser, that is heating up your testicles. If you have to drive a lot sitting in the car, having the heating off of the car seat on, that is going to raise temperature. And everything that kind of really raises temperatures is like cycling too much. You have you know a body position where your gonates are pressed too close to the body and heating up. Taking hot baths, I'm going to sauna for example. Sometimes the problem with the temperature is even the chop. Think of bakers for example. Yeah, they are heating up, they're gonates just on the working place. So that is really essential. For example, those things, those temperature harming issues that can be avoided. Like the cell phone thing. I want to just add here. So you're talking about heat insult. If it's a minor heat insult, it affects the motility. And if it's a real big heat insult, it could affect the count. I've heard stories that in the old days, cowboys would take hot baths as birth control. It's not a good approach if you're trying to use it for birth control, but it's important as a message that it can impact the count of motility. I had a gentleman that had four sperm parameters and through diet, acupuncture and herbs and supplements, they became all normalized. And then at one point he came in and he showed how poor his count was. It was really crazy low. And we started looking and he goes, I'm so healthy. Everything I've been eating well. I've been taking my supplements. I do everything. I mean, even doing infrared sauna three times a week. Mm-hmm. So the good news was all he had to do was stop the saunas and within three to four months, everything was back to normal. So that message is heat insult. So I want you to continue, Olivia, but you said so prescription drug. So pain meds like the inseds can affect the sperm production, motility count possibly. Yes. You talked about or it's just basically over exercising and heat insult. I'm curious what other things that you see that can be affecting the sperm and things that people can do as part of your bag of tricks. Like you talk about prescription drugs. What about recreational drugs in Canada? Marijuana is now common use. It's legal. So marijuana alcohol. Can you talk about that? And then also infections like illnesses like COVID. What's the research showing us on that? Mariana harms sperm and diminishes count, morphology and whatever of the semen. And even and that is far more important. Cause is those DNA strength breaks, yeah? Which really translated means that the paternal DNA is crap. So marijuana also knows part use. So that's something that can be negatively impact the sperm quality. Alcohol? Well, you know, we in Europe. (laughs) I really well known for drinking for more than you in Canada and USA. So the good news here to the Europeans is that as per a tells us says that those which is the poison, yeah, alcohol per se, yeah, isn't toxic. It depends on the amount. Yeah. So what you allow to drink statistically, yeah, is one glass of wine or beer a day without harming your sperm. That's the conclusion, yeah? So you don't have to avoid it, yeah? Because with me, if somebody says, well, you mustn't or you're, I forbid you to do, yeah? Then I suddenly get cravings for that, yeah? So it's better to lower the amount and dosage with people. So it's easier to handle than just to, you know, keep away from too much alcohol, but yeah, you don't have to really miss out on it. And then COVID, I was curious about it. In fact, cause fever's can do it. And I just know from us both being part of the AB or M, I know there was some discussion around COVID and sperm quality. So can you update us on the latest research on that? Yes, I can. What we maybe should put out prior to going through the COVID situation is that as you said, sperm can recover. And sperm is newly built every 74 to 90 days, okay? So approximately four times a year, yeah? You have the chance, yeah, by changing your lifestyle, by living a healthy life, by using all the advices we give up now, to completely boost your sperm and renew your searches. Okay, yeah. That's what you can do, yeah? So that's a good thing, yeah? That almost every harm is reversible within three or six months. Means one episode of sperm development, taking three months or two cycles. I'm glad you said that because I've heard other reproductive urologists say that, you know, if you went to Abracadabra and you corrected the issue, so no alcohol and you fixed oxidative stress with taking antioxidant. So Abracadabra, today everything's fixed in theory because it takes 90 days for the sperm to mature, you would expect the sperm to be okay, but clinically they say it's closer to six months. So like you said, two cycles of the maturation of the sperm. So to let people know, I share this that, if you do an analysis three months after you make these changes and the changes haven't shown up in the semen analysis, that doesn't mean it's not working, it may mean you need more time. So three to six months is more reasonable. Yeah, and that is very important to know because COVID, you know, we were talking about sperm again already prior to the pandemic. But now we have an issue with COVID being unfortunately able to enter cells in the testicle that are essential for the semen for the sperm production. Yeah, and harming their development. So what you can say is we all know that quite at the start of the pandemic, everybody was about wall, it harms the virus, harms the lungs, yeah, and the lungs are the organ and it suffers the most from an infection and people had to get oxygen and everything. But what we found out now quite recently means within the last year, yeah, is that the testicles actually have far more receptors for the virus than the lungs. Yeah, so unfortunately almost all of the cell types that are essential for the sperm development can be entered by the virus because they have those so-called ACE2 receptors. So the cells that are responsible for nursing, yeah, the sperm in its development. And the light access that are responsible for the production of the testosterone, yeah, the male hormone, yeah, can be harmed by the virus too. And that is really bad even the stem cells. What we now see with the latest research that has been published and the latest one is in October, one has been coming out in May as well. And they say, well, COVID has a detrimental effect on semen quality. And it really, really lowers every single parameter, yeah, because it really destroys the tissue of the testicle, which is necessary that sperm can be produced, yeah. But the good news is that it's reversible according to research, yeah. But it takes, and now we do know how many days approximately that recovery might take is about 120 to 180 days depending on the parameters. - Well, that's again, four to six months. And so if you've had a COVID infection, this may delay getting pregnant if you're trying naturally. So keep that in mind. And like you said, it can recover. So do you counsel your patients then that are choosing to use IVF or XC if they've had a COVID infection? Are you suggesting maybe to wait it out or-- - Yes, I do, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. So whenever a man can see showing me his semen analysis, one of my first questions after saying, hello, it's have you had COVID. I think you'll win, yeah. Because to me, that completely changes my time approach of therapy or my recommendation timeline for going for IVF or 8. So I really advise them to postpone it up to six months after the infection and that absolutely makes sense. Now we're going to get into the bag of tricks because people are like, okay, what can I do? I want to read a quote from Dr. Ashok Argoal who is an andrologist, a prolific publisher of research on male factor in fertility, and also he's in your book. So I want to read a quote from your book from Dr. Agarwal. And he says, "As sperm quality has been declined over the last several decades, we need to use every tool we can to improve sperm quality to improve a couple's reproductive capacity. Therefore, there is an urgent need not only to explore the opportunities that Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture." I think this was cool because often docs don't mention the herbal part. Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture offered to treat male fertility problems, but also to inform clinicians and scientists about the effects of herbal extracts, acupuncture needles, and supplements on male reproductive functions. Goes on to say, "Combining the knowledge of Western medicine and evidence-based Chinese medicine with an integrative approach brings together the best of two worlds, helping men to regain their fertility." And that again is Dr. Argoal who is an andrologist. So can you talk about the best of two worlds? So again, you're talking about your work up for the male, what you ask, making sure what prescription drugs are on because that can be impacting, recreational drugs, their activities and lifestyle, whether they've had infections like COVID. And then if it's going to take three to six months, what are men doing in your practice for those three to six months to help optimize their fertility? Well, of course, as a TCM practitioner, they get acupuncture regularly, means once a week, at least, yeah. For those 10 to 12 to up to whatever weeks, but that has to be at least once a week, yeah. It's senseless to get them in every three weeks because you know, you won't have an outcome of that. It's just two little input, yeah, for regulating your body. Most of the research shows twice a week that's been published and even an hour. Yes, that would be perfect. I deal. So let's talk about if you were the male and what you know, what would you be doing to improve your sperm? Now that you know what you know, what would you be doing? Yeah, good question. So what I would do is to get acupuncture once a week, yeah. And then have a session of laser acupuncture once a week, too, or try to borrow a laser. Yeah, so what I sometimes do with my patients is they can kind of rent a laser pan, yeah, to then really. And I teach them some points, yeah. And they do laser acupuncture because the laser actually can be that game changer, especially in terms of COVID destruction of the sperm because it focuses on the mitochondria, yeah. And it kind of rejuvenates and renews cells, yeah. Yeah, as you know, I love the laser. And in our clinic, people come twice a week because you're saying twice a week. You're doing one acupuncture a week and one laser a week. And our clinic in Vancouver at Acubells, we're combining. So they're getting the acupuncture and the laser twice a week in those treatments. And so yes, in the mitochondria for our listeners, that's like the powerhouse, the battery of the cell. And that's really important for the motility and the energy to sell for that sperm to fertilize the egg, for example. So that's why it's so important. And low-level laser therapy also can help regulate inflammation. I know when I talk to women laser, they think laser that either can cut or burn or that removes hair or for sculpting, that is not what we're talking about. This is called low-level laser therapy. It does not hurt. And I will just add that, you know, talk to your professional. Like, so Olivia tells the man how to use the laser system what to rent because you don't want to heat the testes. And so there are some LED systems that would give too much heat. And so again, it can help, but you just want to know what kind of system you're using. And it's good to talk to your health professional so they can guide you on how to use it properly. Absolutely, absolutely. Don't go and buy laser on Amazon and use it. That's what we're talking about, right? So it's a professional item used by TSM practitioners, and they might show you how that works. So, so you're doing acupot--so twice a week acupuncture and laser in TSM for our listeners, traditional Chinese medicine is the acronym TSM. And what else are you going to be doing then if you're looking to optimize your sperm quality, you're doing acupuncture and laser twice a week. You cut down on your alcohol, you're not doing potter smoking. I would go for herbs as well, yeah? So as a Chinese medicine doctor, I of course stand out for the Chinese herbs, but you could do Western herbs as well. There's Indian herbs. So whatever kind of herbal tradition your therapist is into, that might of course be a game changer because, you know, herbs are the foundation of any drug that has ever been invented, yeah? They always root on how herbs work in our body, yeah? Best example is viacura, for example, yeah? That roots on actually yin yang huo, which is a very common herb out of our Chinese herbal backup. Yes. Do you remember for yin yang huo the the nickname for it that in English, honey go we? Yes, and of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not so cool in German, yeah? Because the fish offs head then, so it's kind of not. I forgot already. So the truth, translation is for nicoed weed. Yeah. So oh, so I didn't and I wasn't aware of that biagra, that was part of the history behind using that herbal root interesting because that's in a lot of formulas for male factor fertility. So of course, yes. Herbal medicine really is a game changer, yeah? So only going for acupuncture, yeah, might not be strong enough to change a really huge pathology, yeah? That might work for some, you know, where you need to just do slide correction, yeah? But if just like you to COVID, yeah, your sperm quality is really diminished by 70%, yeah? Then you need to really, really try and do everything to to improve your sperm and then absolutely need some oral intake of herbs and you might want to go for supplements as well. Yeah. So I always use supplements and I test which supplements are needed through black test. Oh, good to hear you do that. In our practice, we have naturopathic positions and we don't always do the testing. We wish and like to just some people choose not to have it done to see where they are deficient, but we do have some general antioxidants. We like, do you have kind of your the top, you know, five, I'm putting you on the spot here, but what are some of the antioxidants that you like to see that men would be taking that come to mind or supplements, nutraceuticals? Number one is zinc. Why? Because their checker labe contains the highest amount of zinc in the body. Yeah? So obviously sperm needs zinc. Yeah? So you have to substitute that if it's not enough. Yeah? So if the level is not on the highest range, that's what I mean. Do you understand what I mean? It's not just in the range. Yeah? It's really almost over the top. So we're talking functional medicine ranges and again, talking to my colleagues and my practice, the naturopathic positions, what Olivia is conveying as well here is that we have a range, but you don't want to be at the bottom of the range. It's kind of like at school, a pass is 50 to 100, right? But you don't want to be at 51% because that's a pass. You're rather be closer to that 100%. So she's saying that a lot of functional medicine clinics in Chinese medicine practitioners and way Olivia practices because she's an MD, she wants you at the higher end of the range. And so it's zinc. Then it's selenium, which is essential as well. But actually number two might be co-Q10. Yeah? That is kind of really my selenium magic powder. Yeah. Then, um, folate, I think it's essential also for men. Do you like vitamin D? Do you like the fish oil? Oh yes. Yeah. I like vitamin D for the overall cell power of a body. I don't think it's in the top three for the sperm quality, but I think it's essential for the overall health of a male. Therefore, I would go with what I mean because also it's easy to substitute as well. And what about the fish oil, the essential fatty acids, omega-3s? Do you like those for men? Yes, I do. I do. But I often use them in combinations. And also, I really love an Arganine, Elcarnitine, for example. I found out I have to say quite recently that the macaroon, which grows in Peru, the black one. There are several color different types, but the black macaroon improves morphology problem. And let's remind our listeners that sub-diet, like it's a good diet. You can't be eating fast food, poor diet, and think the supplements are going to be the solution. They are called supplements as in they supplement the diet. They're not drugs, right? They're supplements. And so these are just, I call them catalysts to help you right to speed up the process and to support you. But you talk about diet as well. I'm imagining your practice. Yes, I do, of course. And there's been research going on to find out which is the perfect diet for improving sperm quality and the result is the so-called met diet. Is the one you want to go for, which kind of is what the Italians eat, excluding pasta and pizza. And tons of bread. So every mediterranean food, containing a lot of vegetables and fish and seafood, for example, also some chicken, for example, is really good or steak. So really drop a meat of good quality that would work too. Yeah. And so reviewing your bag of tricks, acupuncture and laser acupuncture, you're using in your practice, diet and lifestyle. So phones and laptops out of your pocket, alcohol, dosage matters, stay away from recreational drugs. And then you're interested in what kind of prescription drugs are taking. Stress and sleep, I know you talk about that in your book as well. So lifestyle, this is all lifestyle, right? And then we talked about acupuncture and laser acupuncture. You like to use Chinese herbal medicine in your practice as do I and Vancouver for the men as well as supplements. So that's kind of a big part of your bag of tricks then acupuncture, Chinese herbs, supplements, and then diet and lifestyle and stress reduction. It seems a lot. So it's, you know, a hard thing to do for a man, yeah, doing so much things, yeah, but all together, you know, they kind of make you win the prize. Yeah. It's like if you want to or inform a time, yeah, just them prior to the invention of the cars, yeah, they use cabbages, isn't cabbage? Like you're talking about the horse and baggy? Yeah. To be really fast, where you want to go, yeah, you wouldn't put one horse in front of your cabbage, yeah, to carry it, yeah. Okay, I say what you're saying? The carriage carriage. The carriage, yeah, that's the word I was talking for. True, yeah. So, okay, more horses carrying your carriage, yeah, makes you win the prize fast. That means father is child. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Has it been your experience? Because you know, you say it seems like a lot, and when the men come in, and again, it's been a challenge compared to women. Women, they come, they really do come in and they follow their treatment plans. We do, you know, when I started 2000, we didn't see very many men in 2022. We're seeing more men involved than we did in 2000, but nothing compared to the women. Yeah. When I found interesting, my question for you is, the men that do come, they love the acupuncture. They chill out on the table. They have naps. Like at first, they're nervous. They're worried. The common question I get is where you're going to put the needles. So they think fertility, so they think we're going to needle their penis. They don't get their penis needles. They think you're going to make a cactus out of it, right? Yeah, exactly. So the penis does not get needles. I wish that people know that that's not where it happened. That's not where the needles go. Usually below the extremities, below the elbows and knees, maybe a few below the navel. But they don't, they don't go into the penis. And they like it. They have a little siesta. They have a nap on the table is what happens. And they come to really enjoy this rest. They say like it really rejuvenates them for the week. So they like that. I want to ask you another thing, just kind of comparing Austria to Canada here. When I ask the men, when I see them solo, and I say, so why are you here? It's a good question. Right? Somebody comes into your clinic. Why are you here? The number one answer I get for men is my wife sent me. Yes. Yes. Is that what you say? Yeah. Okay. So the men I see, it's interesting. Now we'll talk about the conscious side of it. You know, like the men I see in the relationship is that the female's equal or even sometimes dominant because she makes the man come to the come to the clinic. Right? If he's kind of the dominant one, then he may not come if he's not interested in this. A cute story for you is years ago, a woman came in and she's 40, no known fertility issues. She did have issues with five boys that were moved years ago. And she was just being proactive. She was like, I just want to optimize my fertility for the next three months. I just want to do acupuncture, die and supplements. She was into that whole idea, healthy baby, right? Get my eggs to the peak fertility potential. And she wanted her husband to do it as well. So she sent him in for a consult. And it so happened that when she was coming in for her follow up, he was just leaving from his initial. And she came in and she said, Oh, I'm glad you just saw him. Is he booking? I go, well, he just left and no, he chose not to book. And he followed up. She goes one second. So she leaves. You hear a little bit of commotion by the elevators out there. And then she comes back and she says, yeah, he'll be booking those appointments. So that's where the relationship's equal or she has more, she has a lot of say in the relationship. We have found that, you know, if it's up to the guy, historically, they don't tend to come in. I will say, because I don't want to live in the past as of late 2022 when we're recording this, more and more men are really getting involved, involved in their health. They're looking to reduce her stress, they're looking to improve their sleep and energy. And more and more, looking to be proactive and get involved in the fertility journey. It's still nowhere near how many women come in to be proactive, but it's a lot better than it was over 20 years ago. That's true. And what might be interesting and also really essential and encouraging a man to actually do something for their health, not only for their fertility, but a poor semen analysis, is said to be kind of the window to a man's health. So it shows that something isn't really working properly in his body. Means he is sick to some point. He can't produce proper sperm. So he might be unable to produce proper healthy cells at all. Means he's more prone to get cancer. And that is really statistically proven. So the risk factors. So what you're saying here is, I've heard it like the male infertiles, like the canary in the mind for men's health. And so if they're having sperm quality issues, this could be that's kind of the symptom that there's something else going on that could lead to other risk factors to other diseases. So we do want to have further work up, position you're saying, and also proactive treatment. Yes, you need to have that. Because maybe you don't want a child that as much as your wife or your partner, which is often the case. And therefore I really like to have a couple come in together for the first time, because I really want to see their partnership communication. And sometimes you get a glimpse on who is the more proactive one in terms of that they want to conceive a child. And it's not always the woman I have to say, sometimes it's really the man forcing, but maybe too hard. So that isn't helping at all. They have to do something for his overall health because what we know is you know that the probability of getting cancer, gut cancer, for example, is three times higher than with pertin, man, means with men having a normal seem and analysis, for example, or prostate cancer, yeah. And so just to remind the listeners is the men are involved to 50% or more into fertility issues. And so unexplained fertility and early pregnancy laws some are saying now the data saying the reproductive urologists are saying that this likely could be contributed to the male and you're sharing as well that that if there's some issues since men are constantly making sperm and that cycle of maturation for production and maturing sperm is 70 to 90 days that two cycles and you could have better sperm. So give yourself three to six months of eating well your lifestyle so how you exercise your sleep your stress reduction and then using proactive things like acupuncture laser acupuncture Chinese herbs and supplements and a good diet and doing that over three three to six months while you're continuing to try to conceive you may see a change in your seeming analysis and even if your seeming analysis is considered normal but you're having issues getting pregnant this would be something that you're recommending men that's what I think I if I summarized what you shared today is that did I hear you well? Yes yeah and to the end maybe let's talk a little bit about sex right? I was waiting for that because I know one of your books is about the record is fortunate at libido so Olivia let's talk about sex. Keep best alas yeah now that is really really a well-maned advice that um a pair that wants to conceive has to increase their um frequency of intercourse yeah it's not enough you're just to have intercourse one or two days prior to um their ovillation the women's ovulation but you have to really really get going yeah you have to start having intercourse statistically best every day starting from six days prior to your ovulation yeah and then continue having sex because there's one very interesting study that if a couple fathers the child yeah without having loads of sex prior to the conception yeah for example they just start to try to conceive when it works in the second cycle yeah then the female body isn't used to the paternal um DNA well enough yeah and then it reduces um an immunologic reaction causing chastosis for example yeah and I think that's really interesting yeah and therefore yeah just to you know get as a woman get your body used to that foreign material yeah that contributes half to your baby inside of you yeah you should really have sex lots of sex anybody that likes to have lots of sex whether you're female or male now you have an excuse to tell your partner why they why you have to have more sex it's it's for the health it's for our health we're building up a resistant yeah and especially with um poor semen quality yeah you want to have a high turn over yeah so you want to have fresh soldiers yeah put out every time you have sex yeah so therefore the poor semen quality is yeah that more helpful it would be to have daily sex yeah because that also improves the sperm quality which is kind of interesting yeah and what about because in our practice some have been trying for so long and having so much sex like if gets uncomfortable and I wanted to unpack a little bit about what you said and um one is like six days before ovulation so I I kind of align with that agree with that like at least six if you know when you're ovulating start at least six days before often I'll tell couples that every other day and if they're testing for the um ovulation predictor test the LH surge then on that day in the next day and the reason being is because sperm can live in a female's body on average three to five days so every day you're saying it's great because you're um you know especially if you're having uh there's some sperm issues it's just you're saying it's good to do it every day but for those where the semen analysis looks somewhat okay you're doing all these proactive things and really you just don't have the energy or the desire to have it every day and it becomes uncomfortable then every other day is what we would recommend and I'm just checking in with you because you're the expert in here what what do you say for the couple that are like we don't want to do it every day yes I totally get them because you know it it it gets kind of a duty yeah over time yeah and you don't want that yeah because you know sperm quality also depends on the grade of arousal and that's really interesting yeah so what experts say when it comes to which sex to have to have the best sperm quality and to kind of be sure to be able to bother a child then it comes to two words hog then hard you know this this is important because I've heard this before from other colleagues when you talk about the erection so um because a lot of times when you're in the baby making mode it becomes a duty like you said and you're trying to get it done as quickly as possible where the guy really isn't he's he's orgasm but it's not like a hot hard it's not a fully wreck hard erection and I want to pull out some Chinese medicine here so this kidney young this energy the young right we want this strong young and I often think of it as like a bow and arrow if you're having intercourse but it's just really just to orgasm not you know you're not really enjoying it and not really heartfelt in it it's kind of like you're pulling the bow back the string I should say not really tense so when the arrow goes it kind of go boom right but if you really pull it back hard lots of tension and you let it go it goes straight and fast and so often when I'm talking to couples it's that idea that if you can bring joy back into it make it fun and even for the guy don't rush this like you know hold back a bit like really kind of build up what we call this young energy build this up as you said because you know I love Olivia will we talk sex at workshops it does need to be or you're saying it's it sounds like it's more beneficial from how Chinese medicine thinks if the man is hot and hard because kidney young it because a cold penis is is a diagnostic right if the man feels his penis is cold that that means something in Chinese medicine yeah true so for the couple you know getting away from that beauty chop yeah might be the advice to really start being creative start playing games yeah start doing some some plays yeah some role plays for example that is really good yeah or for the women yeah cook a meal just wearing high he's perfect yeah or what's born together bringing in new women yeah changes yeah we as women don't want to hear that but actually changes and increases sperm quality yeah so you don't have to bring in and do a free sum yeah a new woman yeah that's that's not my advice yeah okay I'm glad you clarify that because I wasn't sure exactly what I just heard I I but you know you don't have to you can kind of fake that by watching porn together yeah and that actually really has a positive effect on the sperm quality and that's easy to do and that's something you're not used to you know that gets you away of that every day in the course being yeah that's something really exciting something new and both are in yeah so try to go on sex dates yeah somewhere else yeah just try to surprise you as a couple yeah and try to really look over the plate yeah when it comes to sex yeah don't don't don't stick to the well in in in German we say flower sex I don't know flower sex or dating sex yeah so don't be vanilla yeah okay don't be vanilla you know when we started I didn't put this was rated our podcast today but you know we talk about reproductive health and I'm glad Olivia that you're here to to talk about this because in my practice I don't get into the sexy talk as much as as you do and so and but it's important right it is important and so yeah because you know you can't well nowadays unfortunately there's a trend yeah excluding sexuality from reproduction? Well, that's the, you know, unfortunately, when you do IVF, that we've taken sex out of the reproduction. So, you know, this is a whole other topic. And I like that you've have brought up the intention because it's hard to make it fun. We're getting it. Like, it's your stress already, you're trying. And so, it's the playful intention. So, experiment, it may not work. You may, you may set up a date and do something and it was just what didn't happen the way you thought it happened. But if you don't try, you don't know. So, you're suggesting some playfulness, bring some intention into it. Couples have shared that even though they both know what's going on, we're trying to make a baby here. When you pretend and set the intention after a few minutes, you kind of forget me, you get into the role and you have a good time. At the beginning, it's awkward, it's uncomfortable. I know that you know that I know that we're trying to have a baby here. However, they do say after minutes into this role play or this new experience that it becomes it's fun. And so, they do find it a different experience. So, thank you for bringing that up as well. All right. So, we have Dr. Olivia, oh yeah, with us today from Austria, from Graz. And I do want to let, if my colleagues are watching this, if you're a clinician, an acupuncturist, any health professional that works in reproductive health, so reproductive endocrinologist or urologist, I do want to let you know that Olivia has a book out called the Integrated Treatment of Male and Fertility with Chinese Medicine. So, do check that out as well. It's something you want in your library. So, you can implement some of these approaches for the men or at least you become aware so you can refer them in your city to a Chinese medicine acupuncturist to implement these bag of tricks that Olivia offers in her book. Olivia, thank you very much and I look forward to having you back on the Conscious Fertility podcast. Thank you. It was a good time and I hope people listening had a good time too and have some tricks now that they really want to implement in their everyday life. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Conscious Fertility. The show that helps you receive life on purpose. Please take a moment to subscribe to the show and join the community of women and men on their path to peak fertility and choosing to live consciously on purpose. I would love to continue this conversation with you, so please direct message me on Instagram at Lorne Brown official. That's Instagram Lorne Brown official or you can visit my websites Lorne Brown dot com and acu balance dot c a. Until the next episode, stay curious and for a few moments, bring your awareness to your heart center and breathe.