Specialty Matcha in Bangkok with Jev of MTCH™

[MUSIC] >> Hello, and welcome to the specialty match podcast. My name is Ryan, and this is my co-host on June, who also goes by Sam. >> Hello, and we're the co-founders of Sanco Match Products. >> Hello, Ryan from the future here. We also have a video version of this episode, I'm with corrected captions and with additional visuals of things that we reference and talk about during the episode. So if you're interested in that, I put the link to the YouTube episode, where you can watch this versus listen to it if you're interested. Thanks so much back to the episode. >> Yeah, so we launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey in March of startup stories and interview experts. And today we're sitting in this beautiful space, here in Bangkok with the founder, Jeff, for MTCH. >> Hey, hi, everyone, I'm Jeff here. >> Thank you for coming on the podcast together. >> Sure, sure, sure. >> In one year. >> Yeah, nice to see you guys as always. Thanks for the delicious Samco. >> Thank you, and thank you for this. >> Actually, I don't know, what are we drinking? >> Yeah, think about the region, think about how long the shading could be, I guess, longer shading. >> Longer shading? >> Has a lot of creaminess. >> Creamy on my nose. >> A lot of dairy notes. >> And then you mentioned about the longer shading period. So what is long long? What do you consider to be long? >> Well, more than 20 days, definitely. >> Yeah, more than 20 days. So this one is about 28 to 73 days. >> Oh, 30-ish days, well, that's impressive. So it's showing a lot of something, but very speed. And it's more smooth. Even I brought this like five minutes ago. It still have a lot of like enjoyment in your very ability, the texture. >> Yeah, great after taste. Really long, for long, sweet after taste. >> It is a semi-duty. >> It's a semi-duty. >> So I am in it. >> No, no, that's a semi-duty. >> A semi-duty. Oh, wow. It has a lot of richness for semi-duty that I haven't always tasted. >> Typically, I find semi-duty more refreshing in simple. >> This one's very complex. >> And this time, it's from 20 to 24. >> Okay. >> Yeah, and we are expecting the 2025 will be arrived next month. So I expect even better higher quality. Because as the producer said, 20 to 25 is an up year content with the weather, with the workflow. But it's more as a higher quality of the matchup. The cooler in the budding period, and the lower you. And it's had some time to rest too. And they didn't release it so early. So that changes the taste point of it from what I understand. >> Yeah, yeah, at least six months, I think. So after we finish the tensile process, we have to wait ideally six months to make sure that all the chemical component would be stimulant during the processing time to rest and not talking. >> Okay, interesting. >> Is this from Kyoto Prefecture? >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay, tastes like it. >> Yeah, and this is from Gokasho? >> I don't know, maybe, maybe not. >> Secret? >> Yeah, maybe yes, maybe no. >> [LAUGH] >> But it's delicious. >> It's delicious. >> It's delicious, whatever it is. >> Speaking of the UTI. >> You mentioned last time. Yesterday that now we are going to talk about the establishing of Kyoto Prefecture, right? You have seen some of the tea vendor, they named the sub-decipate of Kyoto Tokyo. >> Yes. >> So I like to show you what you guys eat. What you tell about that, that kind of thing. We are in the real world, it's not the match right now. It's very funny because like, even now, all five years ago, people come to me and ask that, "Okay, do you have UTI, Kautiwa?" I mean, like, the Kautiwa from UTI, they think that UTI is the name of the Kautiwa or UTI is the name. >> Oh, wow, interesting. >> Like, same thought as, yeah, UTI is that same, but good. But now, I think the consumer on the market developed a lot. So now we discuss about the sub-region. We discuss about the micro-tower. >> It's fun. >> So for now, like, what's the percentage of day-to-day consumers that you run into that ask you, like, very in-depth, you know, knowledgeable questions versus, like, people, you know, asking you, you know, what is this match up to the first time? >> Interesting. I didn't check the data, but I just-- >> Just anecdotically, yeah. >> Yeah, just answered by my gut. I think people have more idea when they come to the store. >> Okay. >> In-- earlier, the customer come to the store and just ask for a cup of match up latte. That's it. But now, they ask more. They have their framework-provide preference. >> Okay. >> Not to-- not to-- they don't like the umami. Or sometimes, they consider the color, like, the aroma, like, that print, that print is-- it's so similar, but actually, it's just not much. But at least, they have some preference, they might. Or they know the very much-name, like, they know Yami. They know Yami, yeah. They can decide by seeing the name Yami and they, okay, let's go with the Yami. And they can expect something from the name. I think this is a big change. Because five years ago, when we opened the shop, when we put the name Yami in the tea list, no one knows and no one even cares. So it's changed a lot. >> Wow, and they happened fast. Because a couple of years, you end up with a very experienced group of consumers asking you very in-depth questions. >> Yeah. >> When we mention about the [INAUDIBLE] most of the time, we blame the social media. That makes the market so bad, right? The market gets like, gets exaggerates. It gets crazy with the [INAUDIBLE] but at the same time, it gets cheaper a lot. Otherwise, if you don't have this kind of, like, this boom or this kind of trend, it will be-- it will stay at it as much as it's sort of printing, maybe probably, yeah, that must keep things in general. Most of them, they know a lot. Do you think this is like the new norm for retailers so much a brand, people in Thailand? Like, you have to offer all these information. >> I think so. >> Okay. >> You cannot do, I think they cannot do the much at retail without knowing this information anymore. >> Okay, okay. >> Because when you step into the professional games, the customer know a lot and they will ask, they even make a much at home with their own, like, own recipe. So, if you want to do business really much, you have to know this one and try to keep up with friends, I guess. >> What does it mean to build trust with consumers now versus when you first started five years ago? Like, I'm sure transparency is a huge part of that. But like, when you look at the competitive landscape of all of these offerings and the consumers are deciding, who do I want to spend money with? >> Like, a lot of that is building up a relationship and building trust with these different brands. So, how do you view that and the way the foundations of trust get built between the brand owners who are educating people and providing the product and then the buyers? >> I think we can, I can answer in three parts. So, the first part is transparency and transparency. We can build it with, I have the answer, but I try to think about the word. For example, we should not, when we know that what customer want and what is the key word, the customer that they will come to buy the things, we should really make sure that the thing has that high of the thing that we are selling. For example, like, like in Thailand, for example, the Rosti Matta forever aroma is very popular and it's available like the Matta from Posinosaisha. >> I heard that super popular here. >> Yeah, it's really really popular and then we will have the terms nutty flavor. Horizang just mentioned the nutty flavor is a very new thing for the real interesting. >> Yeah, it's a good one. But for example, when we would like to sell the word, nutty flavor and we put this type of description to any Matta, we have to make sure that this one has a really full mouth. >> Yeah, so otherwise you're not this marketing. >> Otherwise, the customer will get really disappointed. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think this is like the fundamental of doing things. We have to make sure and we have to like really confident with the product. This is how we make trust. If we cannot find a Matta with a raw sea or a nutty flavor, we just don't say it and we try to tell them what to expect. So this is what we've been doing for like five, six years. >> Would you say that the preference for these roasty toasty profiles like Yame are starting to overtake the preference for Umami? Because I think, no, okay. >> I don't think so. I think you guys drink coffee, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, back in the day when you start drinking coffee, what do you think? >> I was searching mostly for acidic coffees. Either more fruity, more acidic. >> Since you were young. >> Oh no. >> Because I was young. Maybe something that's not bitter. >> Yeah, something that's not bitter. >> That's right. >> No key sugary. I love it. >> Yeah, same here. But we have something in common that not to bitter. >> Yeah. >> Something not to bitter. I start drinking coffee with like smell, the pushino, with the caramel. It's very, very mushy and creamy. And then when we drink, bring, bring more, we can cast the taste of the real coffee. And we get to use to with the taste of it. And then when we get used to of the taste of the real coffee, we don't need any sugar or milk or cream to help anymore. So we become drink less sweet and less milk. And then at the end of the day, we drink black coffee. And then maybe sometimes when we drink black coffee, we can develop our personal preference to go something acidic like you mentioned. I think this would happen the same with the matcha. Because most of the people, when they step into the matcha will, most of them they start with matcha. I spend much later with some little sugar. And they have no idea what is the umami nices. Even how hard you try to extend, this is very umami, they don't get it. And you can help it, you cannot. >> Yeah, you're just not ready for it. You haven't acquired the preference. >> Yeah, let them take time. Let them try to get used to with a good quality of the matcha. They will be more interesting. >> So one of the things that MTCH does, and I think it's so unusual compared to any other cafe I've ever been to is just a level of extraction theory that goes on. Even in the past two days, you've mentioned so many different room methods. You asked me yesterday, do you want this to be very like expressive or more mellow? And you were going to completely control that by the brewing. You talk about some of the brewing parameters, brewing strategy, extraction theory that you use here. And you start to see a little bit of it online, but it's still very much, this is the best way to matcha. Versus this method provides these flavors. The Southern method does something else. So like what does whisking do? What does whisking for 10 seconds versus 30 seconds do or different temperatures of water, et cetera? You know the complex question. >> I have to like trade secrets. >> No, no, it's okay. >> I talk about this all the time, but in my own language, this framework that I had to this time that I'm not the first one who invent all the brewing methods. So we have to order Uru Senke, Omote Senke and a lot more. And I have to disclaim that there is no perfect recipe for a matcha, even how bad a matcha is. I think there is no perfect recipe for them. But what we try to do is we try to, we try to apply all the methods that we know to a matcha and we will see what is the best for it. And I think when we go back to do the three ceremony and we see the difference that I have brewing in ISU, there is a framework implication in that. >> Now whatever talks about that, that's interesting. >> Omoto Senke, there's not very much whisking. >> Yeah, I think all the information is already there. But we have, when it comes to the matcha, we have a kind of like beauty standard of half the mix. >> Of how to make a matcha properly, by making a nice beautiful foaming on the top, which is like maybe out of there thinking. >> Interesting, maybe this is Uru Senke. >> That's a really nice, but it is not the only way. And when we get rid of this type of beauty standard, the truth is the taste is all here. And the foam on the top is maybe it's perfect. Like 10, 20% of the whole cups of the tea. So that's why we need to forgot on the gas at 70, 80% down there. And when we don't have the beauty standard, the brewing that the tea is a method of trying to blend, not to the soap, trying to blend the tea with the liquid properly as nice as we can get. And while we blend it, the extraction is occurring during the misting, we can say they are three stages of the extraction. So the most soluble part, and the middle soluble part, and the least soluble part. >> Okay. >> Which result in the braver? When you think about it all, you get braver. You think about the green, fresh, sweet, some sort of aroma. Come on the first phase. And when you talk about the most aroma, all the slightly losty-notive flavor, multi vanilla, it's come in the second part. >> Okay. >> And the body, the up to taste, all the heavy roasted aroma at the end. So the role of the brewer, when we think about it, the flavor is to try the balance of this, or try to present what the mud has through me. So when you encounter a new matcha that you have never tried before, would you like try all sets of combinations of extraction? Or do you have some intuitive sense of like, okay, this matcha is from Yame, like I would probably use lower temperature water, or higher temperature water, depending on your experience. >> Most of the time, I try all the sets, all the possibilities that I have. >> Which is like 10, 15, 15 set up. >> It must take forever to taste through everything. >> When some producers send me a sample of the mud, I like 10 grams. I said, okay, you send 10 grams, which is not enough. I need to live quickly to do the same thing, and if I like it, I need 100 grams of sample to make a basic key. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Because we need to really make sure that we want to get to know a matcha really well, and when we know how to extract it, what we like, what is our preference to them, and then we will throw it into our recipe. So it's a lots of work. >> Wow, sounds like it. >> Something that you did yesterday is like, we did a koicha, and then we took the koicha paste to do usecha. And it's the first time this has ever happened to me, is that it's the incredible ujihikari koicha that you have here right now. And it tasted so light and elegant, and just beautifully, not just crazy intense, but it was like soft as koicha. And then you asked me, how do you want it to be a usecha from a flavor perspective? And I say very expressive, and I was expecting you to whisk it like crazy and generate lots of foam, get as much air incorporated as possible. And you barely whisked it. You very lightly, very emotosake style, very little foam, and I tasted it. It's the first time I have ever tasted usecha that was more intense than the koicha. I've never had that experience. And I asked you why, and you gave such an interesting answer. I would love if you could share some of that extraction theory. Because it just blew my mind, it changed my perspective. So for the first part, I think the concentration of the flavor come from a good ratio. Most of the salimonit, actually, when they saw the left over of the foils are in the bowl, they would know what amount they should put on the water, right? Yes. Yeah. And I just tried to do the same, but I just do it with my calculator to make sure that I don't overpower it. Down to the milliliter, but it's crazy. We have to go to the milliliter level, because the taste is a small amount. Yeah. And the ratio that we make the koicha is just seven by five. And then when we want to make it into like the usecha is one to thirty, right? So we have to really make sure that we are not miscalculated. Otherwise, it will be like, where's that? That's all the ratio is very important. So check the left over. When I make up finished part of the koicha, I waited on the scale to see how the total of the weight of the bowl is. And then when you finish the koicha, I waited again. And I see what is the amount that removed from the bowl. That's insane pre-preparation. Like the fact that that standard here is crazy. Yeah, and then anticipating that. And then I just add the amount. So that is the first part that we do not overlook. And the second part is the style of the air that we would like to include to the weight string. If I ask you and you think, okay, you get tired with the koicha already. You need some save comb to go back. I would add more air and give you a front view view to make sure that you go home safely. Okay, is it extracts more caffeine or more? No, no, no, no, it's just about the air. Just about the air. Yeah, it's just about the air to incorporate with the tea. But if you ask for something expensive, so that means you need for a second bit. The air actually dilutes the intensity. That way you are trying to change your mouth. Yeah, you change the mouth. You think about when you drink the cold pressed juice, that is like very less air in there. I just concentrate in the liquid. You think the flavor is very sharp, very expressive to your face. But if you put that one into a shake, then you shake it really, really hard and you bring it. It will give you a stop, a front view, things. So it's about the air on the top or the microphone that you mentioned that should change the feeling and change your mentality perspective when you bring it. So less air does make it taste more concentrated. It's nothing. If that doesn't make it take less concentrate, but you will feel it a little bit better. You feel it better. Really? Blurry. So there's a more definition. Less foam. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then the last part is an extraction. Yeah. So it is the crazy part that just blew my mind. So when you ask something expressive, but the tea is already blue and the koi chastets. This is really hard to explain, but in a single stroke, there are more kinshan or thunders. There's more tinshan? Yeah, it's about the grip of the week. Okay. Yeah, grip partner, but do it slower. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Tension more. Okay. Yeah. And then the tea will be extract. So the first extraction is the koi chastet, right? And when it becomes up, we use it as a second extraction. So we have to really make sure that we are not extract too much and bring out the bitterness of the tanning or shoe, the sweet and the human flavor. So we need to really progress and control the extraction. So you have already been extracted the first time when it was in koi chastets. It's a second brew. It's a second brew that's interesting. Yeah. Literally. It's like fractional brewing like in gongfu chah. You do a Taiwanese ulong, right? First and second brew tastes totally different. And you don't want the, like in gongfu, you don't want the water to hit the tea too partially so that you kind of the extracting all the burnt or charcoal roasted smokiness from the tea. Yeah. Yeah. And the agitation helps with the extraction too. Yeah. I'm just, we can learn a lot from making a kapa koi chah. So that's why it's made like 8 years for the tea, practice, practice channel too. Oh, it's true. Yeah. As beginners don't do koi chah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah. I'm still learning a lot. So there are like a great people out there that I really want to learn from them. When you are developing all these new methodologies, where do you usually take inspiration from? You're talking about like these mentors, great people, like are they like individuals or do you like read from, you know, the churches, like how do you like take inspirations? Talking doesn't help sometimes. It doesn't help. Yeah. It doesn't help. We can call it and we can have some idea but I think sometimes when we just hear the story of how leadership it is, it doesn't make sense until you take it until you taste it. I need a lot of practice. I have to tell you that I need a lot of practice and this Uji Hikari is the first time that we serve the koi chah in the store for my whole career. Oh, wow. We really? Yeah. So this is the first time that we put the koi chah on the menu. Oh. Yeah. Since we opened, we opened in 2019. Wow. That's crazy. We will never be a koi chah on the menu or any offering just for fun to give to some friends. Okay. But we never put it in the menu so I practice really, really hard. Oh. We finally comfortable in house. Not enough. Still not enough. Yeah. I still do a lot of mistakes. We're still part of the experiment. Yeah. I did. That's my, I didn't chance so high for it. We say the planet and you, you have a question on the pilot, is that why you just have this price. Yeah. I didn't chance so high. Yeah. Oh. The price was insane. I can't believe that. I mean, if there's something that is a statement that embodies matcha for everyone, it's the accessibility of the price point of this. Yeah. We charge 20 USD for a couple of triple award winning competition, koi chah. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. I mean, that's usually sells for in the States, maybe $250 for 20 grams. And here it's, you have an expert preparing it across, you know, all the MTCH locations. It's prepared for you. That's crazy. The price I could be up for them. You know, when, when, for example, that one is 600 baht entire, right? So which is like 20 USD. Some people would sell it in like 60 USD. But if we put that ice pack, I think it had less chance for this to be selected by the customer. If we have less chance to do it, we have less chance to learn the feedback. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. To encourage more people to get it, just to create that feedback loop, yeah, how consumers like it, how they find it. Yeah. Just say on the, the back of, of the label of the tea, right? We put the name of the blue. Yeah. We just want to make sure that the rule of the, the club of the tea have, have to, let's honestly to what the customer thinks, they need to come and check their feedback. Is everything okay or any room to improve? Interesting. The feedback so far for this team. Yeah. Most of them are very happy. I like them. Some of them, they, they, they expect the, the team will be like way, extremely funky. Like French, oil, got, pang jian, to the pairs, but this tea is a little bit, some, something very elegant, very real round and complex. So I think, is this a time that the tea should be in the, to win the competition? I would love to try. Sure, sure, sure. You can have it. Let it. Yes. But the price is, it was crazy and the quality and the whole experience. Yeah. Since, since a day one, then we do, then we have created a concept in here. I think all the people should have an, I could easily access to the Marcel. Yeah. I think that's so important that people have good reference samples. They know what they're buying is from the place that they, it says on the menu, from the cultivar that it's supposed to be and that they can taste that and it's at an accessible price point. As how else do you learn as a consumer? Yeah. So powerful. And I think this is really the true foundation and the fertile soil for a specialty movement. Otherwise, this will really just turn into a luxury niche, like only the very few people can enjoy. When we go to Kyoto or when we go to Uti, like some famous shop, maybe we need to be in a line for half or one hour to get in, right? Yeah. And most of the time when people, they, they try to, they wait for a long time and they expect a lot. So that's why some time they try to audit for each other. Okay. Okay. So which is probably 200 years, I guess? Okay. 2000 years. Yeah, 2000. Yeah. So 2000 years, I guess, and people can enjoy it or maybe not. But I think when people spend a long time to wait and spend a high amount of all the money, there should be some kind of like explanation. Yes. Yeah. At least they will, they should have some idea what they are drinking and what is, how does it impar with the other brands of the product? Oh, yeah. So that verse is just saying it's Hatsumokashi or something, or you don't learn anything about it. Yes. So they will have more idea to explore more. Yeah. It's interesting that that hasn't caught on in Japan more because in Japan, all the traditionally blended products, you don't learn anything about the product. Like, you have to be told, this is good. But when you read this card for the Ujihakari award-winning one, you are literally told why it's good in objective terms, the exact number of days it has shaded. The fact that it was hand-sorted, the fact that it was hand-ecked, like you, and the fact that it comes from like a very specific sub-region, you can learn with that consumption. So I think this is a kind of like cultural difference, little bit in Japan, outside of Japan, but in the past, I think there is no problem with this because in Japan, they have a trust system. The thing with the higher price tag is the thing that costs more, a very high quality. And the seller have their, like, their owner and the customer have their trust. So that's why when they paid for something like 4,000 yen for 20 grams of the market, there should be no problem. And for the people outside, for the, like, us Thai people, we cannot speak Japanese. How do we do? Yeah. So that's why we need extra information. And I think most of the people now in the industry doing a really good job. Yeah. How do you see the whole landscape in Thailand? Like, if you look at the competitive landscape, even since I first was focusing on March a year, three years ago, it's changed, like, crazy, I just was at one of the malls here in Bangkok. There were maybe 15 vendors and everyone was selling single-cultivar, single-origin. They're being very specific. Not just saying, "Ujima cha", but like, "Joyo". For example, I had a conversation with someone, he had a tasting reference sample of six months-age tencha, one and a half year, two and a half year, all fresh milk. And he was telling me about the taste differences. Like, I feel like this conversation, one, you wouldn't have it anywhere else in the world. And two, you wouldn't have it maybe three years ago here in Thailand. So, like, how is it changed from, like, a small business landscape? Because it seems like so many people are entering the game, and the standards are changing. And it feels like the standards for specialty matcha are being set in Bangkok, and I really felt that yesterday. Because it feels like everyone has the same playbook. So then, how do people- how does everyone differentiate from themselves? Or is this market just so large it can support everybody? I believe the market is so large. Yeah, we are, let me think, I can answer it in like, in many parts. But for example, I think we have a thanks to the customer in Thailand, when Thai people saw any trend, they respond to the trend very hard. Passionately. Yeah, passionately. Passionately. And that drive the vendor or the seller or the retailer to do more. Otherwise, they cannot differentiate themselves. So they need to study more, they need to go back. I think in a single day in UG, many Thai vendors or Thai customers come to UG and they try to learn more and more. And when they know something interesting, they try to apply by their business or they try to apply with their communication. That's true. We went into so many Thai people in UG. Yes, we did. A little crazy. And I think this is how we became a hub of the matcha. I think Z hub. Yeah. We are like a matcha capital, I guess. Yeah. I can see it clearly when I am here in the store and every day we experience the customer from overseas, come to workshops, ask about what we are doing here, why we see this matcha to this menu and why it's not that matcha or lots of people asked to do the franchise. Okay. I'm sure. In Bangkok, it's got to be something interesting. Honestly, the chances of you learning more about matcha in Bangkok is higher than you can do in Japan. I feel like nowadays. Unless you're going directly to the producer farm or unless you can speak Japanese. Yeah. And sometimes when we think about one of the producers told me that in the past, the matcha goal should not be invisible. That's an interesting mindset. They just should be invisible because their role is just to grow the tea and sell the tea to the someone who got commissions. So they just try to be invisible and try to do their best. So they cannot get blamed if they send a shitty quality matcha to the tea shop. Yeah. So they cannot be blamed. Yeah. So they just try to do it quietly and get some money. So this is the mentality in the past. So that's why when we buy a matcha, we buy from a tea shop. We didn't buy from some farmers. So what we know there, what we can learn from there is how to blame the matcha. And most of the time, we can just obtain the knowledge that this matcha is for a koi-shak, this matcha is for the koi-shak, or this matcha is for a certain style of the school, but that's it. And you will never understand the favorite preference if you have no chance to try that style of the matcha, or even harder if you are at Uru Zenkib's tea practitioner and you never expect any Omotod Zenkib brewing style, you have no idea. Yeah. So it has less chance to experience the kind of the tea. And the producer doesn't speak and you never know who they are, who they are going this beautiful and delicious tea, because they don't speak, they try to be English slow. So this is the thing that happens in Japan, I guess. When we are outside of Japan, we have not something to hold back. So we have been to learn. So we go directly to the producers, and we can go direct to the tea vendor or shashi. To ask what is the thing, why this is not, why it has to be this, not that, quite for example. And then we mix up everything and we create our own style. One of the things we were discussing was the matcha scene in London. So if you had to give advice to other markets in London, Paris, New York, Los Angeles, what can cafe owners, matcha brands and consumers do to create this type of culture that has developed in Thailand? Because we've been talking a lot and we feel like what's happening in Thailand is new culture formation, but there's not a very traditional ceremonial lens based on the products. The focus is on the appreciation of the tea itself and doing everything you can to make the best flavors be expressed by the tea, informats that people like and learning what consumers like is a tight feedback loop between the products and the preparation of products and what consumers want. And this seems to be the cycle of feedback and it's created this really unique new culture. How can we get to that in Paris? How can we see this kind of menu in London? You know what? I am a horrible person to give feedback to someone. Okay. I'm really mad in this, but I just tried to go back on our early day to see what we are doing. When we, I told someone from a tea school, he came to the tea school and he asked me, "Why did you use the skill on every stage?" Okay. Like feedback. It was measuring the liquid, measuring the hot water and everything, so we use the skill on every stage. And he mentioned that, okay, in Japan, no one do this, no one just go with their experience. And I just told him simply that I have five staff on that day and five staff, they have their new friends like different grips, different experience, different weights. And in every part of the day, they have different emotions, you know? Yeah. So that was. Do you feel a rush? Do you feel calm? Yeah. So that's why they still help. For rice. Yeah. We do that. This is how we do it. Okay, if you make a mistake, if you pull too much, too many hot water, okay, don't serve this to the customer. You keep it for yourself. It is a good tea anyway, but it might change slightly a little bit. Yeah. I don't know, but we don't do it. And we don't try. So you keep it for yourself. You make a new one with a perfect. Great job. Yeah. Yeah. Very perfect. So very perfect. That's crazy. And no one can blame us. Yeah. You keep doing this. The customer will. The customer will. Yeah. The customer will leave her chest and the customer. And if you are doing food, someone will look up to you. Yeah. Yeah. You set the standard. Yeah. Someone will. Everyone will, like, then get inspired. Yeah. Someone. Someone will get inspired. Or maybe some customer who. Who likes the taste of the one that has a good stand out, will tell the other one who. Hey, you should use scale. You should. You should. Save the tea. You should clean the cup. Yeah. That one should be more common. Yeah. Yeah. But this happened. Yeah. This happened. This. This helped to make the. The. The much higher in back hocks. That's so high standard, I guess. Yeah. Because if. If. If everyone asks, take to their stand out. The customer will increase. And the customer will help to. To spread out the bread. Or the customer will help to increase. To stand out. How often do we receive very. Candles or critical feedback from customers? Most of the day. Yeah. I read. I read the. The comments. The customer. Everyday, good or bad. I read it all by myself. Today, like, these comments on. Like Google Math or today's help. Yeah. You see. You see, this gentleman. They will bring the. The drink to the customer. And the customer will leave the feedback on it. Huh? Okay. Sometimes it can be just simply. Like, okay. Good as usual. And so we take it. Which we take it. Or sometimes it can be accompanied. Okay. And the tea. Get a little bit oxidized. Hmm. By the distance of the. The delivery. Oh, wow. So we take that comment. Interesting. We have. I think the most important thing is. By doing. The much. Coffee here. Or the. The much ambitience here. As a fundamental, I am a tea lover. And you guys are a tea lover. So we are. We are not like 100% on purpose. We ask the tea lover. So. We think about the customer to make sure that they will get something that they are happy. And if you think like that, we will try to do. I will. We will try to do the best. Good deliver. Interesting. I guess the customer base really matters too. Because in some cultures, you know. Customers are generally not that kind. They don't give like. Seabags that often. Which I think is really a shortcoming for a lot of business. But if the customer doesn't give a feedback, you have to really. Sure that you are doing what you are trying to do. Yeah. There are some. There are some. There are some things. For example, when I have a feedback that. Okay, this tastes not good, you know? I will make. That manual and bring it. If I still. If I like it. If there is no problem with the quality. If there are no problems with the. The brewer. We won't change anything. But we have to make sure that we are like it. And we really want to present this type of flavor for a matcha latte. We put a different level of the matcha dose on it, right? We fix, for example. Okay. Let's say we start with 5 grams. And there may be some. Some matcha that we. We design to use 6 grams, 7 grams or more. Because we are happy with the taste. With this concentration. And when the people say, "Okay, this is too bitter." I will make. I will make a cup and taste it. If I like it, I won't change anything. Okay. But at least we have a choice for them. That type of. If that customer comes back to the store. Okay. You don't like the strong matcha. We have the apple. Wow. Very. Very bartender, almost. I never. Bespoke style. Yeah. Because if you change it. Like, if someone comes here. Okay. This. Is too bitter. And you change. You will lose your. You have standout, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. It's interesting. In Thailand, the majority of the drinks I've noticed. Almost everyone drinks ice. Ice, Americano, like light brew style, or. With milk. That must change the selection. And when you do the sensory evaluation. How do you build a model in your mind. Of what the Usacha tastes like. And then how this. What is this going to taste like? Like, when I diluted this water. Or with ice. Or with milk. Because I've noticed that. I can't predict it yet. It's so hard to know what a matcha's cool taste like. With dilution, temperature, and milk. I feel like hundreds of times. Which I'm sure you've done. No, but what we are doing. What we are saying is. For example, if this matcha. We put it into three manuals. Right? A trainational Usacha. A club of matcha, Americano. And a club of matcha latte. We put a different description of the menu indeed. Oh, okay. Because it once tasted the same. For example, there are one matcha. From coca show, I guess. That one is a matcha from Kira Li. So they won't come. Yes, I saw you drop. You had crazy lines at the door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one is really, really delicious. With Usacha. And with the matcha, Americano. Okay. And then when we add the milk. The amino acid has the protein and the fat to add. To add to the milk. It's become taste like brine cheese. A brine cheese. Brine. Interesting. So that's when we added it. Okay, this is really, really cheesy. We put the brine on it. But we don't put the brine on it. Let's have a video. Okay. And sometimes when we drink it as the matcha, Americano. It has some five or eight plates. Which we cannot find in the masala there. So we just don't say it. There's a lot of judgment in the West, particularly in the United States. For taking high quality matcha and mixing it with milk. They say it's not respectful, the tradition. They say that it has all of these delicate flavors. That then get destroyed when you add milk and sugar. And I hate this argument. Yeah. And I think these people need to take a trip to Bangkok. And actually always use MTCH as the example. Where you can really make one plus one equals three. And actually these really specialty, very specific cultivars. Just completely change. And it's just a different expression. That is just as valid and just as good. Than if you make it a traditional way or the right way. Even for like the traditional way. If you go to Uji now. Like, for example, Hori Yishech Maiyan. They have their tinsha or matcha blend. Specifically designed to be blend with milk. Like the Japanese are doing it too. Yeah, I think that's how we end up. So to the world, I guess. Because as you see in here. We become one matcha in Bangkok East, right? And you exchange it out. I don't want to stand up and hate. Shout to the people. Okay, let's stop doing this and let's go back to the traditional way. Because actually there is no real, real traditional way. Or maybe sometimes when you think about the traditional way. Or the appropriate or a sociable way. The people in here feel there is no connections. Because they've never been to the teaspoon. It's not their tradition. It's meaningless. But most of the time when you saw the matcha. The matcha that used in the matcha latte. When you think about the type. That kind of the matcha. I think. Okay, let me put it this way. You might see someone use the matcha. Or quotia make a matcha latte. But I think that is just a home experimental. Or a very, very few people who don't have a cafe doing that. But it cannot pose into a real way since anyway. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like literally not profitable. Yeah, it literally not profitable. Or even if you use a lease and use a separate matcha. It will not go into the real business profit anyway. Because the cost will be too high. And the price will be too high. No one will buy it and make a sustainable business. So I think we have to put it this way first. And then when we think about the matcha. That single quotia matcha. That award winnings with. We just make it into a quotia matcha. And that is simply a single quotia matcha. So that means the single quotia matcha or single quotia matcha. It doesn't have to be really, really expensive or always in the quotia. That is like if you can find an oku immediately matcha. Which cost like 100 USD per kilo and you make. And you visit into a matcha latte. This is okay. And most of the people here are doing like that. So this is the real thing. And when you apply. And when you try to think. When you think about the quality of this. Or the quality of the street. 3000 baht per kg, 100 USD per kg. It could have went to a cable plate matcha anyway. Which the cable plate matcha. Most of the time when people think. If you want a good and decent matcha latte, go for a cable plate. Same thing. So I think. There is no right or wrong. But we just need to understand more of the world and try to. To understand what we are doing and try to understand what they are saying. Is there such a thing as a matcha. That's so high quality. That it should never touch milk. Or I think bottom line of this. If the buyer. Happy to do it. Just let them do. You cannot blame them. They are money. Yeah. It's their product. Yeah. And one day they will know. That they are west of their money. Or they just happy with what they are doing. Or do you think though, but even the highest quality much if possible. If you prepare it with enough skill, the right way. You can make one plus one equal three. Or it really does create a new flavor profile. It just couldn't have existed with any other matcha. Yeah. Because here, even here. I think a couple years ago I had an arena as a latte. And I was the cheesiness. I had never experienced that in a latte. Just a new flavor. Because a lot of people would be very upset. Even mixing nirino with milk. Because it's a rare ice-high-end cultivar. But it really just creates something. When that high lumami hits milk. It's a flavor that just doesn't exist otherwise. It depends on the milk too, right? All milk is enough for anything. But I think it's their own side. Okay, three months ago we did a workshop. No, not a workshop. We did an experience. With the fresh-naked ice cream. We sell a ticket for the ice cream experience. A fresh-naked gelato. So we do a tea and gelato. Paling with anything sounds great. And the main cause of that one is a fresh-limit premium nirino. Oh! I can tell you. Premium nirino. The hand-sorted one. Yeah, the hand-sorted gold can. Yeah, the gold can. But what we do. We took the ice cream vendor. We add some mixture. And then we just. Who are two chance of premium nirino in there. Wow. And make a fresh milk. And make a fresh mint gelato in front of the gas. Oh, like there. In real time. What did it taste like? It's crazy. And can you expect that the taste. Like the capsule come from the premium nirino. Super-green, super fresh. Hungami, hi, oh, you got it. You can think about when you're being like. Syrah, Cabernet, Sabeung, and New York something. A little bit of capstone, but it's. It's very present, it's very enjoyable. I mean, the cohes are out of the premium nirino many times. I never exchange this kind of flavor. So I think this is. It only came with. And the frozenness and the tempered jerkness. So you got to see and dimensionalize that tea in a new way. And people are happy. And do you think the farmers. From our experience, they actually pass no judgment. When we talk about this sort of thing when we're in Japan. So like. You know, if you were to go back to the producer, do you think that they mind how their tea is being used? Is this, I think, is like the highest level in culinary. Then it gets. Like, it kind of breaks the definition of culinary. Great. Is it literally being used as an ingredient? But it's just at such a high level that it feels worth it. I think if we can explain what we are doing. Not just for fun and. Intention. Intention nice. Yeah, intention and what we expect. The output of doing this until then they will be very happy. Because most of the things when the tea producer gets afraid of. Because it out there compost soon. Okay. Wow, that makes sense. For example, this tea is meant to be a cohesure. And some people in U.T. have seen this one made into a cohesure for their entire life. They have no idea how it's going to be when it's become a fresh made gelato. So that's why they feel, okay, are you sure you are doing this? Because they have no idea. But if you have a very strong intention. And you are not playing with it. You not waste the tea. Actually, waste the tea. It's very subjective. But if you have the intention, I think it's okay. And they will be okay. Yeah. Do you ever give feedback back to your producers? For some time. Really? Consumers love this. They didn't love that. I tried this. It was good. But I tried it this way and it wasn't good. Yeah, that's the reason I go to say that many times in the year. Not just for fun. Not just for fun. Not just taking a photo. Because taking a photo is nothing new. You go to a garden and you take a photo. Next year, same thing. How willing are the farmers to work with you to create something that you need? Or create something that you are telling that consumers want. You mean how willing? How willing. Like, are they willing to work with you? They are willing. They are. So they will make changes. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, that's great. But most of the time, you know, what I didn't ask them to change anything. Okay. I never asked them to change anything. I just tell them what we are doing. And what we expect is still really good. Because historically they are so isolated or insolent away from the consumers by, you know, all these tea houses, chashis, products just gets blend into all of these little cans. They have no idea, you know, how consumers are enjoying their product. I just try to connect them. Yeah. Yeah. This is wonderful. I hope I do it. Okay. Wow. It's so great. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Wow. Wow. And we sit and. Okay. Please tie what we are doing here in Thailand. Oh, this is a very strong matcha latte. And they asked him again, what do you think about it? The flavour of the tea is great for now. Is it like drinking and who should start? Oh. But this is a matcha latte. Wow. So I think, yeah. I'm not sure he liked it or not. But I think when he can feel the taste of his matcha. In a matcha latte form, this is like something that people not try to encourage. Yeah. Because usually it's just so diluted and milk you can taste anything. Yeah. It's almost the color. Yeah. But when the producer said by himself, I think it is sound. That's great. Yeah. The producer of this matcha actually. Oh. That's really encouraging to hear. And is it mostly just about the ratios? You have the right extraction method for the matcha base. And then you're just not adding too much milk. So it's like everything here is relatively concentrated. So you can actually taste the tea. But other than that, are there any other best practices? Is it really expressed the taste of the tea? What is the question? We're in milk. So when you mix it with milk, other than having a very concentrated beverage. Where maybe it's 150 milliliters. And very well extracted tea. Are there any things the brewer can do to make sure that you're expressing the tea? Because a lot of lattes are very not expressive. Also depends on the milk, too, I guess. How do you select the milk? Yeah. It's hard. But when we open a cafe, we only have one milk. So we don't have to care much about the variation of the milk. The brewing method can help. Okay. You go back to the part of extraction that I just mentioned. Yeah. There are three parts of the extraction. The leaf soluble part, the normal soluble part, and the most soluble part, the normal soluble part, and the leaf soluble part. Sometimes when you find some much that has content of the thing, like pica, or the leaf soluble part, and you want to extract it. Maybe you mix it by the head, it's not enough. So I just throw it into the blender and make a really, really, really strong hot. So extract the flavor. Oh, wow. Sometimes I do a different with the much that helps like a cheesy flavor, the taste of the concentration of the umami. Yeah. That you can't really find if you extract too high. So that's why I use the hand boost. Oh. So you whisk it less if it's more umami, so you don't overextract the amino acids, which then taste super cheesy enough, which makes sense. It's cheesy. It's a really high protein content. Yeah. It's interesting. But you have to remember that. This is very sophisticated. And you have to remember that when you mention it, okay, you don't, you wish it gently. You have to make sure that. The smoothness, the mouth feel is okay. Otherwise, your matcha latte will be like crumpy and dusty. Yeah. You know, it's a cut off of no good thing. Yeah. Well, interesting. Or sometimes when you extract really, really hard on the matcha latte, you don't extract the taste of the matcha so quickly. You extract the taste of the milk too. And sometimes you extract it. When you extract the taste at the aroma of the milk so hard, it's overpowering the matcha. Yeah. I've noticed that a lot of milk. It's just like the milk over shines. We taste a lot of things in latte and are milling experiments. And Dongjun says that tastes like outlet. Sometimes it's not about the visual. It's about the extracts out of the milk too. Wow. Crazy. There are different recipes for how long? You whisk too. Brewing time also. Yeah. We always do the. Do the. Stop. Okay. What's the range? What's the shortest whisking time and the longest whisking time? They have 30 seconds to 90 seconds. 30 seconds. 90 seconds. 90 seconds. 90 seconds. Wow. Is that for like really deep rich, high hikati to extract all the layers? Yeah. It depends. But we use like a different ammeter to do a matcha latte. It's like you're changing this. But it's really. But it's really worth for buying. Interesting. Yeah. We need to do more experiments on this. Because no one talks about these levels of extraction theory. You see, you can try by yourself. You have one matcha and bit milk. You put the same amount on the matcha and save amount of the milk. And you. Wixig. Short, medium and longer. And you see, do you whisk with the milk? Yeah. With the milk. Yeah. Yeah. In here, we have a specific style. We call it cold, which latte. So we just add a milk into a matcha powder. Oh. Interesting. Yeah. So outside of the Thailand, people usually whisk a koicha and then dump it directly into it. And mix it up. I don't like it. And it's become a market standard. Yeah. In here, when you go to achieve market, up to you fair, you can see all that. Yeah. I saw it everywhere. Yeah. And you will find a tremendous milkiness of the cup at the first place. Because when you consider it to cut so much latte, the one contain like a hundred and thirty mules of milk. And the second one contain a fifty mules of water. Yeah. A lot of dilution. Yeah. That's dilution. How do you? But you're cold. You're cold brewing it, though. Don't you miss out on some of the aromatic profiles? Or is it, is that intentional for the matcha that you select for this application? When we do the whole brew, we intentionally present the aroma or the taste from the least soluble part, from the least soluble part. That's sharp alab tea. So you just whisk vigorously for a long time. No, we do need a cup. We make a masala then we leave it for like three hours before serving. Oh, it's pre-made. Yeah. Because you have to make sure that the tea is the tea is extract themselves. Yeah. Because the tea is not like coffee. When you bring a filter coffee, you filter everything and you just drink the water that you filter everything, right? But the tea for the matcha, the matcha is floating. And all the time that they are floating, it's still expect themselves. Yeah, yeah. And you need time, because you want to pitch in, or you want to highlight the taste of the least soluble part, which is small, like nutty, sharp alab tea, a bit up to taste. Yes, this is the, I think house, beautiful, the whole brew is. Ah, so it just takes three hours to extract all of it. Well, it's interesting. Yeah, we did, we did an experiment of the whole brew matcha and the whole brew matcha latte. And actually also doing, we also bought a workshop or a customer. So we have a set of a cobu matcha. This one is freshly made. This one is three hours. And this one is 18 hours. Okay. 18 hours. That's like standard coffee cobu time. And we do some blind taste, we don't tell the customer. Okay, let's see, from each matcha, same amount or the same amount or the meal, different income. Okay. Which one would be beautiful? Some would say this one is more delicious. So it's your choice. But at least you know. Yeah. Wow, it must be so much work to prepare all of these different drinks. It's very complicated. How long, like, what's the usual time range for you to develop a recipe? Like, how does it usually take? No, I have no framework. No framework. I just keep trying. It's the indefinite project until you get it right. Yeah. Yeah. Until we get a right point. But who knows. When we find a perfect recipe for, for a cup. And you really like it. At that time. When you come back to bring it again, like two years ago, two years later. Like it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That's happened. So. It's very different. The people's version to answer. Yeah. Wow. So much behind the scenes. Yeah. So if you. So if you go back to your creation and the end of the beginning about it. And why. To a much enthusiastic or a coffee owner. I think. There are so much to learn. You never finished the recipe. The knowledge in Japan is like an ocean. Not something but the knowledge as a people outside Japan. When we have like a more flexible rule to apply is even really, really one and have to. Look through it carefully. It's a constant learning and constant changing. Nothing is never perfect. Maybe that's the part that I still keep my our brands. I just have three locations. So that's why I still have time to enjoy the thing like this. Because let's go back to the beginning at the level. I like much. So that's why I'm doing this. So I don't want to become a big businessman. Yeah. So. Yeah. The poetic expression of yourself in your practice almost. The whole concept, the whole brand. Yeah. The people come to ask me about like the plans concept, the inspiration, why you think to open a brand. I have like a set of answers. And the answer is like it's a way to say my inspiration to open a brand. But if people ask me about how do I work with the master? How methods. Then they put into a master. I can talk this all this. Yeah. It's really an expression of like yourself. That's what's truly authentic. You really feel it here. It just comes together in a way that's hard to express. T lighting, the furniture, the detail and also how like all the staffs are making the tea. Everything is so coherent. It's so beautiful. And same with the vibe. The staff. Never feels in a rush. And it's very rare to go to a cafe or any establishment that is so nice even to the delivery drivers. Like just sitting in an empty seat, just walking, watching around just how nice you can feel the vibe. It's almost hard to put into words. Because all these drivers come in. Everyone gets greeted. Everyone gets treated nicely. Like it just disseminates down to the whole vibe, the whole place. Just the respect and the level of care and the level of intentionality. Even on the car of the Usuchad that I ordered the other morning. It was the exact time to the minute. It wasn't 930. It was 930. Yeah. Like all of these little details and just come together in a very unique experience experience. Thanks for saying this. Thanks for knowing this. I wish I do okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for showing us. Really setting the standards. I think it's creating an experience and a space to appreciate this. Because although all the tea lovers kind of live very solo lives on the internet, obviously, we have our practices at home. But it's rare where you can experience the levels of care in person, especially outside of Thailand. But I think it's it's changing as more as more founders start to create spaces like this. There are many people out there in Bangkok all. Or the other part in Thailand is probably hard to present their march up to try to build up their own customer list. I think it's a fun scene, a fun festival. Most of the time, if I have time, I try to visit a cafe of a friend who or the old customer who come to here and get inspired. Then they open their own march up. Yeah, I really would love to do when I have time. Yeah, and I think the people, like I mean, and the people try to try to send their standard, try to make something nice, to create the customer nicely to build up the community here. I think I really, I really encourage the people who think they like much, who like much. They're who would try, who want to learn something not from Kyoto or not from Tokyo to come to Bangkok. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I really do too. Yeah, I think it's a great note to end on. Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you so much. Pressure, as always. And incredible to you. Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming on the podcast again. Sure. I'm very happy to see you and looking forward to your development or your project. Thanks. Thank you. I will try to implement similar centers. Yes, we take great inspiration from many parts of entities. Thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners. If you enjoyed this, please consider sharing it with a friend and see you in the next one.