Special: Framework CEO Talks Linux Support, Personal Distro & More

(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, welcome to a very special edition of the Dual Boy Diaries. I'm Will Smith, and I'm here today at Frameworks San Francisco headquarters with Nourav Patel, the CEO and founder of Framework, to talk about Linux laptops. Why 2525 is the year of Linux? I don't know. Welcome to the show, Nourav, it's great to have you here. - Good to be here. - You're our very first guest. I don't know if you can realize that. - That's a heavy burden that I'm carrying on this. - I will take it. - We've just been doing this for a few weeks, but I don't know how much you know. The whole pitch for the show is that Adam and I were feeling some dissatisfaction as longtime Windows users, and Microsoft's making some weird choices in terms of end-of-life support for machines that don't have TPM modules, stuff like this. We wanted to explore other options, and that's what we're here doing. My first question for you, I guess, is the big one. Is 2025 finally the year of Linux on the desktop? - The year of the Linux desktop, which we actually believe in so much that we can create it. - Oh, you made a tile! Oh, that's so good. - The year of the Linux desktop. - I gotta note, it's not dated though. - Oh yeah, we're gonna use this every year until it's true. - So it's been there since like 2003, you're just carrying it forward. - Yeah, every year's the year of the Linux desktop. But no, this year does feel like there's a lot of momentum in a way that we haven't seen actually, even in the last five years of Framework, it really does feel like we are reaching people and getting places as a community that we have just never been before. - Yeah, the level of interest that we've gotten, we kind of jokingly went down when Micro Center opened down in the South Bay a few months ago, and we're walking around asking people who use Linux, and there wasn't a huge amount of interest, but there were some really engaged folks that we started talking about, and we're like, how can we cover this? We gotta think about how we should do this. And it's been really fascinating watching the response, both from old school Linux users who are being incredibly helpful and kind of giving us advice and guidance and gentle nudges and a handful of actuals. But also we've had a lot of people that have said, hey, I'm sick of Windows, I wanna try something different, and I'll do this along with you. So I think I did this a long time ago, like 20 years ago, for a Maximum PC article. And the response then was, hey, read the manual noob from the community. And it's been very different this time. - That's right, that's right. I mean, have you all been embedded with Linux since the very beginning? And have you found that it's a more welcoming community now than it has been in the past? - It is a more welcoming community. I will say throughout the existence of Framework going back to 2020 when we first started, actually it was a welcoming community then, but maybe just still a bit more niche than what we're now seeing in the last year or so. So I think what has changed a little bit from that welcoming but small, maybe slightly limited community to now what's very quickly branching out in different areas is that the usability and use cases are becoming clearer to people who traditionally might just not have even thought of Linux before. And then also the thing that you noted that the year the Linux desktop may not be that Linux is getting better this year than it was last year. Maybe that Windows and macOS are getting worse enough that people are really looking at what else is out there. - Yeah, so you said this a minute ago. You started Framework in 2020, shipped first hardware in 2021. Linux has been a core part of the company from the start. What was your Linux strategy? I think even I look at one of your raise pitches when you were pitching to the company and you talked about Linux in there even. I was really surprised. So what was your strategy from the beginning and how are you doing now versus what you started out as? - Yeah, the big thing for us at the start from Framework was really to figure out who is underserved where our mission and product philosophy will solve the thing that they've been missing. And obviously it was clear that people who are into the right to repair, people who are computer builders, people who are DIYers, like that was very obvious. Computer that's repairable right up their alley. The other gap that we saw though was that if you are a Linux user and you're looking for a laptop to buy, the options weren't great and the options were increasingly locked down and the options were increasingly Windows first. And so that felt like another clear opportunity that like, yeah, if you're someone who cares about ownership, you care about ownership of your hardware, you might be someone who cares about ownership of your software as well. And as we looked at it like technically, actually it wasn't that difficult for us even as a small team to be able to design our hardware to work well with Linux. And so it was clear that that was something that we could and should prioritize even very early on. And obviously it's like paid off for as a company. - Well, yeah, 'cause prior to you all coming around System 76 and some other folks that are doing, that have been really great about supporting Linux, it felt like for a long time you had to choose between either getting newest, fastest hardware, best battery life or buying like a five year old laptop that you knew everything was gonna work in. And that's a bad excuse. I mean, I'm never gonna take the slower, older hardware when I can get the new fast hardware. What, do you have any idea of what percentage of your user base is actually daily driver Linux users at this point? - It is, at this point it's about 50/50. And on some of our product lines, it's actually pushing past that. So we started off back in, well, back in 2021 when we first started shipping, it was about 60/40 in favor of Windows. And we've like progressively over the course of the last five years now gotten past that break-even point to now actually being slightly Linux majority. - That's wild. I never would have guessed it was that high. That's awesome. You were, and obviously you're committed to Linux at this point. Are you a daily Linux driver? - I am dog food, we're very big on dog food in here, which is eating your own dog food. So I-- - Testing your own product. - Testing your own product. - You don't actually make dog food here. - We don't make dog food yet. So I actually do both Windows and Linux. Part of the challenge for us is that all of our, most of our engineers want to use Linux. And so we need somebody who's gonna get in there and be using Windows day to day. And so like right now, because we're about to launch framework laptop 16, I've been using Windows daily on framework laptop 16 until we get this thing out the door. Before that, I was using actually now O'Marchee, but just other Linux distros on framework laptop 12, especially when we were in the lead into shipping framework laptop 12. And once we ship 16, I'm gonna switch back to daily driving on O'Marchee probably. - I was gonna ask you what your distro and desktop environment choices were. - Yeah, so I guess going like way back in time. So I started out in 20, or not 20, 2003 on Debian. And my friend who's also named Will introduced me to Debian back at that time. And we were both very excited when Ubuntu came out in 2004. It's like, oh, this seems way easier than Debian. Let's use that instead. And so I was kind of Ubuntu default from 2004 until basically until the last couple of years or been playing around with a bunch of different distros. And then, seeing what DHH was doing with O'Marchee, I tested out and thinking like, oh, it's kind of cool. Let me see what people are talking about on this. And found that like, oh, actually, wow, this is like very interesting. Let me start using it and found that it fit really well into my own workflow. - I'm not super familiar with that one, but it's a tiling, is that the-- - Yeah, this is interesting. So it uses Hyperland, which is a tiling window manager. It's built on top of Arch Linux. And the unique thing about O'Marchee is the way DHH describes it is basically an opinionated Linux distribution. It is not a choosing your own adventure out of the box. It is, I'm going to have an opinion on a thoughtful, very UX oriented for a specific set of workflows experience for a distro. And then you can extend it in whatever direction you want from there. And so out of the box, actually it is just this like, it's almost hard to describe it. It just, it both looks and feels like the way that a Linux distribution should be. And what I mean by that is like, as we look at the last 20 or, well, for me, 20 years, but for others, I know even longer than that. It looked like the desktop environments, the window managers, whether you're Noam favored or KDE or whatever else, they have felt a little bit like rougher takes on Windows and Mac OS. I'm curious if you felt that. - It's a thing we were actually talking about on last week or the week before, depending on when we run this interview. Like sometimes as a relatively new user here, and I've been running Linux servers for years. So I'm really comfortable in the command line and can get really down and dirty in a terminal. But a lot of the desktop experience, it's hard for me to know if something's kind of busted on Linux, or if I have it set up wrong, or if it's a little janky, or if I'm just using the wrong of the 22 things that do the thing I want to do. Am I using the wrong one? Am I using the not popular one? And I honestly, having some structure imposed, I'm running Cache right now on my laptop, which is another Arch distro. It's a rolling distro. It's very exciting. I turn it on snapshots when I jack something up, I can just roll back and it's good. But they offer a lot of choices, right? So I have Noam running on the laptop and I have KDE running on my desktop. And I've looked at Hyperland and some of the other stuff that's out there and been like, "Oh, I'd like to try that." But it's kind of a high cost of changing and experimenting with that different stuff. And I almost, I understand the appeal of having somebody say, "No, "this is the way we're gonna do it." And if you know enough to change it, go nuts, have fun. But everybody has a common starting point, which seems nice. - Yeah. And the thing that I think has been very interesting about Hyperland and then Omarchi specifically, is that it feels fundamentally different than what can, like I was just saying, it's feel like a rougher version of Windows or macOS where you kind of have to like figure out like, "Okay, how do I make this kind of fit a workflow "I'm familiar with?" With Hyperland and Omarchi, it is actually just like blank slate. Let's ignore all that. Let's actually think about like, if you've got a certain set of workflows, what's like the efficient and like visually interesting approach to delivering that, that just ignores the norms and conventions that you're used to from Windows and Mac. And at least for me personally, like I've also, like I worked at Apple, I was a Mac user for a number of years, for gaming of course, and from the Oculus days as a Windows user, I've got muscle memory of all of these things. And so when I jumped into Omarchi, of course there was a learning curve. There was like, "Whoa, like what do I even do here?" About after a day or two, it felt like, "Oh, actually this feels a lot more natively "like what I think Linux should feel like." And I actually think that that is this really interesting growth vector for like reaching people who might be looking at the traditional desktop environments and Linux just doesn't feel like, "Oh, this feels like a step down or step sideways at best "from like the things I'm used to." This is like a leap in a totally different direction. I think actually makes the year of the Linux desktop plausible for a lot of audiences who just would not have thought of it before. - It's interesting 'cause when I used, when I fired up KDE for the first time, it almost feels like when you go to Canada as an American. - Right, yeah. - It's like, "Oh, okay, this is more or less the same. "I know this except the speed limit's all kilometers an hour "and there's a lot more Tim Hortons, "but like, yeah, okay, there's a Walmart. "I get it, I know how this works." And KDE feels a lot like that as a long time Windows user. GNOME feels kind of like that as a former Mac user as well. And I'm definitely gonna, I'm gonna have to try some of these hyperland distros and give it a swirl 'cause that's on my list. - Yeah, sure, we'll see in a few weeks how it's just gonna be an episode that's dedicated to it. - I'll curse your name. You've committed code though to-- - I have, yeah. It was specifically like using it as a daily driver on our actually different products and seeing like, "Oh, this is like a weird knit. "Like, I wonder if I can fix this," and digging in, filing an issue in GitHub and DHH responding, not knowing it was me filing the issue, saying like, "Oh, I'd love a PR." So I looked at it and thought like, "Well, I could just email DHH and say like, "I wonder if we can find a way to like, "to like, get someone to develop this." I figured like, "Eh, why don't I just go dig into the code "and see if I can fix it." And it ended up not being that hard. So I just, you know, push the, or, you know, submitted the PR and then later DHH realized that it was actually me. (laughing) - Yeah, how did you understand that, basically? So, okay, a little bit of a change of tack. You all just shipped your first NVIDIA discrete or are in the process of shipping your first NVIDIA discrete GPU now. How's that going? How do, you know, it's one of the, you've kind of gradually added new chip vendors with Intel and then AMD and then NVIDIA is the next in the line. - Yeah. - Like how are you feeling about it? How's it going? Are you excited, worried? - Yeah, no, we're feeling good. Obviously there's a lot of engineering effort required from our team. So yeah, a bunch of our electrical engineering team and firmware team in Taiwan. It's about a lot of time on getting it to work. Obviously working close with both AMD and NVIDIA because of the interaction between the processor and the GPU and also our display vendor, a bunch of other partnerships to actually make it work. But we did the hard engineering work and it is working. And now that we've made that investment, any of those future new generations that we take on are gonna be much easier. - And are you seeing a preference on GPU choice for like key to OS? Are the Linux people avoiding NVIDIA? - They are, okay, they are still avoiding NVIDIA. I think a lot of, I mean, there is some reality there. There's likely some reality there still. There's a lot of brand hit that NVIDIA has taken from decisions they've made over the years, especially as it comes to Linux. The reality of like actual day-to-day functionality, the setup is still a bit more rough getting up and running on NVIDIA than it is on AMD, on Linux. But once you're set up, it is stable, it does work, it is performant. - Weird bug aside. - Yeah, so if you're a Linux user, in general you're gonna get like, once you're up and running a pretty equivalent experience, but it is clear that the investments and commitments that AMD has made over the years for Linux specifically have paid off. There is just a lot of depth of trust in AMD's driver stack on Linux. And of course it is stable and it does work well right out of the box. And so we have also seen that. For Linux users, the clear preference is still AMD. - Now, you don't necessarily have a gaming laptop category, but with shipping a giant AMD processor CPU with a giant NVIDIA GPU, you do have a laptop that you can use for games now theoretically. And I'm curious if you're gonna see more Linux gamers niche of a niche of a niche. - We have seen it. And that is interesting. Like historically, if we go back even like a few years ago, was an extreme niche being a Linux gamer and like trying to get anything, play anything. You're basically playing Tux, was a Tux Racer. - Tux Racer, maybe Counter-Strike, whatever Valve had released. - Yeah, those are your options. Tux Racer, Counter-Strike. Obviously now because of the investments that Valve, especially has made with Proton over the last few years, being a Linux gamer is no longer, it's no longer an oxymoron, it's no longer a niche. It's actually like a very credible, capable way of playing games. And a lot of what we're seeing, especially on framework laptop 16, is not necessarily like someone who identifies as a gamer primarily buying the product, but we all play games, we all like games. And so it's people who are buying the laptop or using the laptop, maybe primarily for programming or just general productivity, whatever else. They're just now finding like, oh, I can also play games on it. But the cool thing that we've also seen over the last year, that is another actually very exciting, like you're the Linux desktop scaling vector is the rise of these gaming specific Linux distros that are also just like the experience is very streamlined. - Psyche, SteamOS, cache e-chips with stuff built in. - Right, yeah. So that's also been really exciting to see. And so like a lot of our framework desktop users are people coming in on like Bazide or other gaming focused distros. And what they're gonna find, or what they are finding is like out of the box, they can get Steam, they can download their whole library and everything they wanna play will play. - Yeah, with the handful of usual heavy odds. - With the handful, yeah. - And no fortnight and a couple other things. - Okay, so speaking of distros, a lot of other vendors who ship Linux laptops either highly customize a common distro like Ubuntu or something like that, or they roll their own distro and sometimes even roll their own desktop environments and they kind of go hog wild. You all have gone the opposite direction and just seem to offer, I think when I was looking at the framework desktop support, you have four or five distros that you list as well support, varying levels of supported with really clearly defined lists of what's gonna work, what's gonna require a little bit of work, what you'll have trouble getting going. And I'm curious like, are you feeling good about that approach still or? - Yeah, it's been working very well for us. So like Matt and our support team has been creating those guides. Guides are awesome, Jesse and the team as well. And basically our engineering team, our software teams specifically and our support team work really closely throughout the development process to figure out like, okay, what can we commit to as like minimum kernel version? What distro are we gonna call official? What are we gonna call community supported? And then going out there and doing the partnerships work and the community development to make sure that the experience is good out of the box on anything that we're putting a stamp on to saying like, yeah, this works. But then actually we've seed out units like pre-release hardware to a much broader set of distros and what we list there to basically get to a point where in the future that list can continue to grow. And this is like you were noting, this is a very deliberate approach on our part that we are not building a framework distro. We wanna partner with the distro makers to make sure that the experience is good out of the box. We've done a ton of research around this too. Like right from the earliest days, we went and surveyed the people buying framework laptops to figure out what they're doing. And there was never a single distro that rose above like 30% share of usage. So it's very clear that we've got to go broad when we're partnering. Especially when you have like Fedora and Ubuntu making multiple variations of each of their distros. Now it is a little confusing sometimes 'cause like I think on the desktop, you list Fedora support, but I think it's only the Fedora, I can't remember whether it's Workstations. It's the GNOME version of Fedora, not the KDE version right now at least. - Right now. - And like, I know that if I take the time and work it out, I can get there. But it's always, I mean, I guess there's always trade-offs when you're working in something as infinitely complex and infinitely diverse as the Linux community is. - Yeah, and a lot of it is just, it's the support aspect of it that like when we state something is officially supported, that means that someone can write into our like internal support channels, our actual team, and get help and get a response. Whereas if we look beyond that community supported, that means like we'll point that person to that community discord or server forum to be able to get support. - And so the number of distros we list as officially supported, the number of configurations, like distro plus window manager, we try to keep very tight to make sure that like we're really able to make sure that's gonna be solid. - So you have good support for the people who opt into those. I mean, it's funny, you mentioned discord. I run multiple community discord, so I'm as guilty as anyone. But do you ever worry that you're putting support resources that can help broad audiences people into these kind of closed silos on the web in terms of discord forums and stuff like that? - Yeah, this is a tricky one. So we also do have a community forum that like, you know, it's maybe more data portable. Obviously it's like searchable. And so like that's been valuable. We also like publish our guides on Dizuki. And now also we have a lot of documentation on GitHub as well. So we do try to publish information in a way that it's not just temporary disposable. It's not like locked into a silo somewhere that it is at minimum searchable and ideally also portable when it needs to be. - When I was setting up Fedora on the desktop, I was really, I Googled the guide to install Fedora on the desktop. And it was fun 'cause it took me to a message board that then linked out to documentation someplace else, which is like, it is the classic, classic Linux pipeline for documentation. - That's right. - If you could change something about the Linux ecosystem, what would you do? What would you change? - Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of very tactical stuff that we write. Basically as a hardware maker, there's lots of tactical stuff we run into day to day that we wish was easier. - Getting drivers in the kernel, stuff like that. - Yeah, getting drivers in the kernel. One of the big ones that actually we're actively working on right now is Secure Boot, which you might have experienced. - Oh yeah, it's great. I love Secure. Trying to install Linux while I was also playing the Battlefield 6 Beta on. - Oh, there we go. - Great experience, highly recommend it. - Yeah, so I think now in the year 2025 or since the last couple of years, a lot of people's first experience trying to set up a Linux distro is hitting some random error message, the first time they plug in that USB key and trying to figure out like, what is it? What am I even doing? - What is a U-Fee message? What is a U-Fee? - Yeah, and it ends up being that, oh, you had to disable Secure Boot because the distro doesn't have the signing keys or didn't do the signing process, which of all places goes through Microsoft to get signing. - Of course, why wouldn't it? - And so that's something that we're actually right now, we are researching and developing ways of streamlining the user experience around that. And really the end goal of this is like, as someone who's new to Linux comes into a framework laptop, picks whichever Linux distro, ideally one of our official ones, really any Linux distros, and gets up and running that they don't run into anything that causes them to have to search, land on a community forum that links out to Wiki, that it's actually like either it just works or the instructions are clear within the product itself of what that person needs to do next. - That makes sense, I think that's a, that's what we would always hope for, right? Is that you can follow, you have easily followable, understandable instructions that get you where you wanna be, doesn't always work. - Doesn't always work, that's the goal, that's the goal. - Have you all, like, we talked about gaming a little bit, PC gaming handhelds have become a growing category. You all seem like you're uniquely positioned to kind of take advantage of that. Have you thought about getting into that space? - We get asked a lot. - I figure, like two thirds of the way there, right? Adam's yelling yes off camera. - Yeah, we get that a lot. I mean, obviously the upgradability angle makes total sense or pairability as well, customization. Like all those parts that make total sense for there to be a framework, a framework product philosophy, focus, gaming, handheld. The big challenge for us actually is that it's very, very difficult for us as a startup to compete with Valve in their own territory. I mean, obviously you're-- - It seems difficult for Lenovo and-- - Exactly, yeah. - And everybody else to compete with them too. - Yeah, if you're a Lenovo or an ASUS, you can dump money into it for extended periods of time, hoping to capture a market share. We can't and won't do that. So for us, we have to identify not just the product reason for building the product, but knowing that there is a business case for it to not basically put the company at risk. - Yeah, I mean, look, we want you to continue being around for a long time. So don't put the company at risk, please. I have a couple of questions from users. We posted on our Discord and our closed silo and asked people what they wanted to ask you about framework and Linux and your all support. So 59 Smoke said, "I'm wondering if the market of Linux users "will affect what kinds of devices framework offers. "I just ordered a Pine note from Pine 64, "which is like a Linux ARM e-ink tablet. "You couldn't normally sell a cheap ARM board "for your laptops or swap in the e-ink display "if you're only selling to Windows users, "but a Nish Linux market could make it work. "So are Linux users enough to add Nish hardware "like that to your category, "like Adam's remarkable or small tablet-type devices?" - Right, that is interesting. The hardware choices we make are with Linux in mind. We're not gonna pick a processor platform, for example, that doesn't have a strong set of Linux drivers available. So actually, unfortunately, it almost works in the other direction that it's less that Linux will unlock our ability to do hardware that we would otherwise not be able to do, but actually, in some cases, it actually filters us down to like, "Oh, we actually can't do that "because we wanna make sure Linux works well out of the box." And just to pick one specific example, like MIPI-based cameras for laptops. So to get beyond the USB-T limitations, do you like high-resolution webcams with bigger image sensors? In Windows, we can do that. In Linux, it would be incredibly difficult, and oftentimes the drivers just don't even exist by the time we launch the products. - What is MIPI? - It's a signal interface that's used in cell phones and tablets, but in some laptops as well. And so actually, you'll find for a lot of recent laptops, most things will work out of the box with an Ubuntu or Fedora, but the webcam won't work. And oftentimes it is because that laptop maker chose to use a MIPI camera, worked out the box in Windows because the drivers just doesn't work in Linux. And so for us, we're not gonna do a MIPI camera unless we're confident that we'll get the drivers working well. - Across all the distros that you wanna support? - Right, yes, that's kind of the filter. - I have to imagine stuff like fingerprint sensors and video capture cards, stuff like that is a similar situation. - Yeah, so all of our, well, the 13 and the 16 both have fingerprint readers, and we chose the module, we did specifically choose it based on driver support, or the libfprint support. - To get both Linux support and Windows hello support, which there's like two models that I've been able to find. Brian asks, at some point, do you envision rolling out a more structured local repair shop program like Apple's done with their stores? Especially if I gave an Omarchi or Ubuntu laptop to my wife, it would be great if she could just look up a local framework approved/trained shop on the website that she can take the laptop into when it needs work since they would have access to schematics, support KB extra parts, all that kind of stuff. - We're, the ambition, I love the ambition of that. Like that is something that we like is in our ambition. We're not at a scale yet where the economics would allow for like basically like the installed density of that would allow for us to have local shops. And we really are focused on making sure that the experience is straightforward and streamlined enough that it should be very rare that someone gets in a place that exceeds their ability to search for the answer or for the product itself to just guide them through the answer to the problem that they're having. We do also have service centers that we can send stuff back to, like we'll send some of the shipping label that should be back to us. It's actually very, very rare for one of our customers to choose that path versus us working with them, figuring out what problem they're having. And if it's a hardware issue, just sending the module in the personal places themselves. - The benefit of making something that's easy to repair is that anybody can repair it. You don't have to have a special vice grip to remove the glass from the device or whatever. I think that's it. Congrats on five years of framework. This has been, it's been fantastic to watch. And I'm excited to see, always excited to see more. I guess, is it, what about, is it, we're at the point of the show where we usually ask guests to plug stuff, so. - Well, we've got a lot of stuff to plug in here. - It's all here on the table. - Yeah, it's all here. I mean, it's all available. So, yeah, that's the plug. - Actually, so you have a, for audio listeners, you have a 16-inch laptop with a custom keyboard. - Oh yeah, we can play with that. - And you're, I don't know which one it's over here, but it's an audio podcast. We don't have to get it out. Are you, are you seeing a lot of hardware, like people, community members building custom hardware, since you're, you post schematics and post shapes of boxes and the whole thing, they should be able to replace anything they want, right? - Yeah, that's right. So we're seeing, especially the expansion card system. So basically the custom I/O modules that we have on, now actually all of our products. - It's like an inch and a half wide. - Yeah, it's a little tic-tac box, tiny little thing. - With the USB plug on the inside? - Yeah, it's a USB-C plug sticking out on one side, it slots into the laptop. And we opened up reference designs, we opened up schematics, we opened up documentation, around this actually right from the start. And we've seen a ton of interesting designs. Like people have done LTE expansion cards to add cellular capability. People have done like can bus adapters to like plug into their cars. We've seen just a ton of creativity there. Someone made, made like a thumb stick module to be able to, there's your gaming handle. I'm excited to use the laptop as a gaming handheld. But yeah, it's been great to see the creativity of the community. And really it's like all of our module systems we document and open up. And now actually on each of those systems we have seen some pretty interesting projects. - Are you seeing them change the shape of the computer or are they all still basically living in the same shape? - Oh yeah, actually we have, even going back to gaming handles actually, we've seen I think now four or five different community projects to build the gaming handhelds using the main board from Framework Laptop 13. - Oh wow. - So that's been, yeah, that's been awesome to see. We've seen a couple of tablet projects. We just recently saw someone post a video of building a larger chassis for Framework Laptop 13 to be able to use a full mechanical keyboard. - Oh wow. - So that was really cool to see. But yeah, we're just gonna get a ton of these cool projects. - Turning these into luggables. - Yeah, yeah, basically. - Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time and speaking to me too. - Of course. - And we'll be back next week with another episode of the Dual Boot Diaries. Thanks everybody for the support. We're not gonna do questions aside from the ones who are already in here this week. But yeah, thanks for joining. There's a link to the Discord in the comments down below. There's a link to Framework in the comments down below as well and please leave questions to Discord in the comments here and we'll see you next week. Thanks everybody. (upbeat music)