Special Episode: Clerkships decoded – life in Australia’s top competition team

Hello from Gilbertan Topen, I'm Moia Dodd. And I'm Matt Rubinstein and this is the competitive edge. What you need to know about working in competition law here at Gilbertan Topen. Today, another special episode for those who think that they possibly, maybe potentially, might like to work with us. We'll hear from those who know us best, the people who work here and those who have worked here over the years. We'll have recent summer clerks, partners and even our former partner and our chair of the ACCC, Janie Cascotlead. I'm constantly inspired by the enthusiasm of the people come in and they come with skills. They come with data and analytical skills. They come with perspectives that we don't have and it refreshes reinvigorates. That's right. And where else would you get the refreshing perspectives of film enthusiasts, football nerds and competition l'le guris all at the same time? I know and that's just on this podcast. But today, we'll try to give you a pretty good idea of some of the things we're famous for here at GNT in the competition, consumer and market regulation group. Well, I remember the firm winning the best biscuits award from the summer clerks one, yeah? Yeah, that was in the AFR. It was because we had Tim Tamms. Yeah, that was a while ago though. Now it feels like we have artisanal cupcakes every other day. Well, if you want high performance, you need the right fuel. Is that what the free coffee is about? That's free with an asterisk, of course. Oh, like the one at the beginning of batteries not included? Or at the end of Marvel's Thunderbolts, just to show everyone how up to date some of our pop culture references can be? Exactly. As Mahaliya sang, as recently as 2023, there are terms and conditions. Well, that is more up to date in dial-in for merger or even merger on the Orient Express mat. But how did you start at the firm? Were you a summer clerk? I was never a summer clerk because I was never going to be a lawyer. I was going to be a writer. But then I wanted to move to Sydney and also pay the rent. So I flew down and had a chat with Danny Gilbert about a graduate position. I think the process may be a little more structured than it was back then, but I have heard that Danny is still very much involved. So you were an accidental lawyer. Did you mean to do competition and consumer law? I had no idea what any of those things were. I'd done an apps law degree and most of my law subjects were like human rights and legal philosophy. Right, because you didn't want to get a job as a lawyer. No, I wasn't sure about getting a job at all, to be honest. I was interested in technology and communications and also pro bono, which is why I chose G&T. I wound up in a group that was a long way from all of that and I was feeling a bit lost really. But that's when Gina Kaskot-Leab came and asked if I'd join her very new competition group. And I may not have known what that was, but I knew who she was and the rest is history, I guess. It's a great story. Where we will be hearing from Gina Kaskot-Leab later in the episode. We will, but how did you finish up at the firm, why? Well, I was rescued from being an economic consultant by IP to Waters, actually. He's basically the goat of telco regulation. And I'd previously worked opposite G&T as a lawyer on many telco and pay TV matters. And when things got to the sharp end, I always felt that they acted very decently. I'd experienced other matters where personal put downs and acrimony were used more or less as negotiating weapons. And I never saw that from G&T. And I really appreciated working in that environment. So when G&T came knocking many years later, it felt strangely like a homecoming. I got to work with good people who I'd looked up to since I was a young lawyer. Well, some people don't take such a long way home, we've got summer clock applications open at the moment for those who are thinking to join us earlier in their career. And who better to ask what that's like than some people who've been through it recently? That's right, we have got the inside scoop from world experts on working at G&T. People like Eleanor Curry, who was a recent summer clock in 2024-25 and is now a paralegal in the group. And Amy Van Dongen, who was a summer clock in 21-22 and went on to work as a paralegal and is now a lawyer with us. And partner Andrew Lowes spoke to them about their experience of G&T, getting in, their path to the firm and some hot tips. Let's take a listen. My name's Andrew Lowes, I'm a partner in the competition consumer and market regulation team at Gillon Tobin and I'm joined by two fantastic lawyers or lawyer candidates, Eleanor Curry. Hello. And Amy Van Dongen. Hi. Maybe to start for our listeners, perhaps you first Eleanor. Would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself and what led you to G&T? Yeah, absolutely. So I was raised on the Central Coast, graduated in 2018, did a gap year and then moved across to Canberra and studied at A&U for five years. And basically I got into law kind of just following my sister, but it was something that I grew to love over the course of my uni career. I really didn't know too much about clockships. I was kind of in the dark as to where I wanted my career to progress. I ended up attending the market day and the spokesperson for Gillon Tobin actually ended up being my long term friend. He's a grad here currently and he basically sold it to me. And I think what really excited me about Gillon Tobin was actually how I felt after SuperSoudidate, which might seem like a crazy thing to say, but I actually interviewed with Danny Gillon himself, which was incredibly intimidating. I was so nervous, but it ended up being such a positive experience. And everyone at SuperSoudidate were just so lovely and engaging and there was just a level of normalcy that I didn't really feel interviewing with other firms. And it just, it really excited me for my future here. So I think that was like the final decided for me. That's great. There's something you mentioned there you spent some time overseas and I find that's a very interesting experience that you had. Do you want to tell the listeners about what you did overseas? Yeah, absolutely. So my gap here, it was wonderful, but also slightly tumultuous. I ended up being in our pair in Italy for three months. I didn't know the Italian language. I thought I did. I knew the basics and I went over and lived in this very isolated little village for three months with a very troublesome child. And I was so isolated. It taught me so much about myself, taught me so much resilience and just an ability to communicate with people beyond language. I mean, my Italian improved towards the end and I really like found my feet, but I think that entire experience was extremely character building and it has brought me out of my shell so much, which I think I really leveraged in interviews and making a name for myself here during the clockship because now I really feel like I can chat to anyone. I can talk to anyone. It helped me grow in confidence, which I think has really helped. It's given me stories and experience, which is something that was really valued here that I found during the clockship process. Absolutely. And we do have, and we like to have a number of interesting people joining Gilbernt Urban such as Amy as well. Amy, do you want to tell the listeners a bit about yourself and what led you to G&T? Sure. So I'm Amy. I was a student at UTS doing a Bachelor of Communications and a Bachelor of Law. I actually started off at Sydney Uni doing international and global studies and soon realised I was having conversations with a whole heap of people and I realised that a law degree would be much more suited to me and paired that with communications as well because I was able to bring across a whole bunch of my subjects from doing the international and global studies degree too. So I was studying away and I had a bunch of friends who started applying for clockships and I went along to, actually it was the G&T clockship night, which was the first clockship type event I went to. I went along to hear all about what clockships were about and I thought that it might be something suited towards me and as I started learning more about the different firms that I was applying to, G&T was always sort of the number one firm for me as I was applying. I really loved the story of G&T and how it was essentially started as a start up and had this very ambitious attitude towards seeking work and growing and building on and I really admired that sort of fight that I thought G&T had which is what attracted me to G&T as my pick. Do you think that has anything to do with your phenomenal athletic achievements and marrying that up to the G&T culture? Definitely the ambition is one thing that you need on the sporting field for context. I used to be national level swimmer and I have a bunch of friends who went on to really pursue that and ended up on the Olympic team which was amazing to be watching them chase their dreams there and so I know it's a lot of hard work and drive and grit. So I definitely respected that and saw that with G&T but I think what drew me to G&T was having this respect for like an all-rounder type of firm and I saw myself as being someone who was a bit of an all-rounder in my life and that's what I aspire to try be and that's definitely what I saw from G&T and the conversations with partners and other lawyers that I was having at the firm were very much that it was about the whole person coming into G&T and that they're looking for lawyers who sort of have the whole package and it's more than just being able to achieve great outcomes in your work. It's the person that is going and meeting with clients that matters as well and I just really I really love that about JNT. I could agree more. We value people bringing the whole selves to work and not just one aspect of themselves. I'm going to change tech and just ask you, expectation versus reality. What were your expectations going to JNT and what was the reality? When I first got here, there's a real sense among all the clocks. Oh, we're just clocks and these are the big important partners. And so you have this expectation that no one's going to be interested in you or have time to hear you or what you have to say. And that actually ended up being the complete opposite of what I found to be true. Everybody has a voice at JNT and not only that, when I actually started the Grad program, one of the first things that my point partner at the time said was the most important thing you can do is have an opinion and let your opinion be known. And that was really a bit of a shock as a Grad coming in 'cause you think, what could I know? I'm just a Grad. And he said, you're going to get things wrong and that's absolutely okay. But let your opinion be heard because that's how you're going to learn and have the confidence to continue growing. That was a fantastic thing to hear. And it really set up a safe work environment to be able to thrive in. The second element of expectation versus reality was that there's this thought process that going to a top tier firm means that you're going to have a wildly unbalanced work life balance. And I don't subscribe to that either. When I first got to JNT, there was a speech that was made by Danny Gilbert actually. He said, at JNT, you're going to work hard. I'm not gonna tell you you're not gonna work hard 'cause you will be working hard. And I rather than being scared of that, I valued it because it's true of all top tier firms. You're going to work hard, but you're going to be in an environment where people care about you. And there's a difference now in the way that I see work life balance. It's not necessarily a traditional sense of it where it's these two separate things. It's just your life now. And that doesn't mean that work is your life far from because there are so many more important things in life, but it just means that you're working out how to arrange everything together. And so that means that there's flexibility and that's certainly been the case at JNT for me is that you work out what things need to be a priority when and that includes your life and includes your work and you all shuffle it around. - That's really insightful, Amy. Perhaps there's a little bit earlier on in your career, Eleanor, but perhaps if you can talk about the expectation versus reality for your clock shift since you've done it quite recently. - I think going in, I was nervous that I would kind of be left in the dark to fend for myself. I mean, I had a lot of legal experience. I think I'd had maybe six months in a small boutique firm and eight months in a Canberra community legal center. So I was particularly nervous that I would be behind the rest of the crew. And I guess his feeds into what Amy was saying that people at JNT genuinely want a clock's opinion and they want to know that you understand what they're telling you. So I was extremely surprised when partners would take the time to book out a meeting room, sit me down, give me a full briefing and the context of the matter for half an hour and then another junior lawyer messaged me and she was like, "If you need any more information "or any more guidance, please reach out to me." And it was so comforting and filled me with a lot of confidence as well. My second expectation was that there would be a level of competitiveness between the clocks and the kind of a battle of the egos. But I really found that everyone just supported each other and uplifted each other. There was no competitiveness whatsoever. I had two wonderful rotations, obviously, in Compton Tech and I did a lot of shared work with other clocks and it was just a great experience all around. It was very collaborative. That's fantastic. And you've completed your summer clockship, you did two rotations, you're now finishing your final year of university and we have the pleasure of having you as a paralegal and our team. What do you look forward to in the morning when you come to GNT? Gosh, I would say, obviously besides from the variety of work that the competition team does, I mean, I have looked into so many industries across competition, consumer market regulation. There is just so much to learn and so much work to do. So besides from the variety, just definitely the people. I mean, I get in a little early and I have this routine where I will get a coffee and sit with my friend for 15 minutes in cafe 33 and we'll just chat and read the newspaper and it's just, it's such a good start to the day and it's a great routine. So I just love seeing everyone in my cohort where all such good friends, there's really a strong sense of community here at GNT so I think that definitely gets me up in the morning alongside the actual work. And how about you, I mean, now is a experience lawyer? My favorite thing coming to work is when I know that I've got a task that day that is a super collaborative task within the team and that happens quite regularly. Often the matters that we're working on are really big matters and we have teams of anywhere between, I mean, it could be just you and a partner or it could be a team with sort of six, seven different lawyers on it and I really love knowing that each day when I come in the work that I'm doing is not just to achieve a really fantastic client outcome but it's working alongside people that I really like. You're also a part of our social committee in the group and you are an important part of the culture and defining the culture and the people. Wonder if you have any interesting stories you want to share with the listeners? - We've got a lot of fun social stories behind us in the social committee. I think a highlight would have to be last year's karaoke and bowling night. We were all singing 80s tunes. I was doing a duet with Louise Clamca, who's a partner in our team. I don't even know what we were singing but I'm glad that we're lawyers and not professional music artists. - Maybe we'll have one last question and that's if you had to share some of your biggest tips with listeners or those who are considering a career at G&T. - I would say to anybody who's considering a career at G&T that you should definitely go for it. And I think tip wise, the most important thing genuinely I think is to just be yourself because you're gonna be working with everyone day in, day out. And I think a big theme throughout the conversation that we've had today is how important the people are here. So if you're going through the interview process you can absolutely feel free to be exactly who you are as you are. We don't take ourselves too seriously here at G&T. We take our work very seriously, but not ourselves and so if you can just be yourself, be true, be authentic. That's my biggest tip. - That's great. How about you, Eleanor? - The entire interview process really showed to me that G&T doesn't expect perfection, they do expect authenticity and uniqueness is really celebrated here. Don't be afraid to put something in your cover letter or resume that is more niche and personal. I mean, as an example, I spent a lot of my second interview around with Charles Curry talking about our music taste and because I had written a little section about how I loved attending gigs, et cetera. And it's just something that they like to hear and they encourage and yeah, so just be yourself. - Well, thank you so much, Amy Eleanor, for giving your time to do this podcast and tell the listeners about your experience. I think both of you highlight what is essentially the very best of G&T, which is bringing people from very different backgrounds and very authentic people and ambitious people and bringing them together to create something special and to serve as the market at the top tier. Thank you. - Thank you for having us. - Thanks so much. - What a great interview. And it's good to hear that Danny Gilbert is still at the call phase doing the interviews and inspiring new members of the team. - And it's certainly true that we love people who have interesting histories and that turns out to be just about everyone, whether you're a national level swimmer or a game show contestant. - Or an opera singer, or you played in a radio head cover band. - Yeah, you know who you are. - And it's great to hear from the next gin and up and comers. But at a senior level, we also have a people partner in each group. And in our group, that's Louise Klamkoff. - Yeah, and I caught up with Louise to understand what she sees as important in the candidate and in a lawyer in the group. - We better listen to this. - Louise, you are the people partner in the competition and marketing regulation group where you were a senior lawyer before and the special council as well. What is the role of the people partner? What do you do in the group apart from all the work that you do? - As the people leader, I'm fortunate enough to be able to take a leadership role in terms of the team's culture. We have a really strong culture in the CCMR team and always have. We work together really collaboratively. Everyone's passionate about what they do. And that shows in the way we interact each other and with our clients. And frankly, we love being at GNT. So it's not that hard to be a leader for that culture as the people team leader. Recruitment is also a really important part of my role and that takes many forms. So we obviously have our summer clerkship program where the firm works collectively to encourage new talent into the firm who hopefully go on to become graduates and lawyers in our team for years to come. We also hire laterals into the team when we have a business need for that and that involves bringing them in in terms of their training and and getting to know the GNT culture. We also often have people who at different times of their careers might want to do something different for a while. Your work life is long and that involves lots of different changes. And for some people they might want to do a stint in London or New York and we help them find a place that is suitable for them and will give them the best experiences that they may hopefully bring back to GNT one day. People also have breaks for different reasons. They might go on parental leave. They might take an extended sabbatical for a year and and travel and people should feel free to have those kind of opportunities for development and work with us and we we do that quite a lot. Another important part of my role is working with people in terms of their career progression and development and that involves giving feedback, mentoring, assisting through things like the performance review time of the year which is what we're doing at the moment. Really helping people shape their own journeys and all of the partners do this as well in our team. So if people are looking to come and work in the group or the firm, what are the main things that they should know about working with us? GNT is a very unique firm in the Australian marketplace. We're independent, we are very ambitious and we have grown to be such a large and competitive firm over only 30 odd years and that experience that we have had imbues everything that the firm does. We're creative, we're innovative, we always like new challenges but at the same time we do all of that with heart and a sense of responsibility as lawyers to the greater community. So I think that those are the two pillars that define GNT and my experience of GNT the most. The drive and ambition to be excellent at the same time tempered with a sense of strong social responsibility care for each other internally and awareness of the world around us. So if you are a person who is passionate about law but also your place in society and the responsibilities that we should have to make the world a better place, then GNT is probably the corporate law firm for you. And we're obviously on the lookout for summer clerks at the moment but people already thinking about their whole careers. One of things like in the longer term here in GNT and what sort of opportunities are there for a lawyer over the course of their career. So when you're a summer clerk you get a taste of what the kind of work we do looks like and the kind of culture that we have as a law firm but as you start to progress throughout your career here you see that the depth of experience and talent that we have as well as the caliber of our clients means that we attract the most interesting work that really gives you a rich experience as you learn and grow as a lawyer. If I think back on the matters that I've worked on over the last 17 years that I have been a GNT they have covered every industry, every aspect of competition, consumer and regulatory law. They're the kind of things you read about on the front page of the newspaper that people talk about in Senate inquiries and that people will ask you about at your Sunday night barbecue. They are exciting, challenging and worthwhile projects and I think that if you have that kind of work then everything else goes with it. You have the opportunity to learn, develop, forge your own path and really think about how you want to contribute to the firm and whether the firm is the place for you to grow and spend your career. Of course we hate to lose people for any reason but sometimes we can see why they might have moved on to bigger and better things. What are some examples of those? Well everybody has their own career path and at different points in your life you may be fully committed to doing this but then take a break to do something else but other times this provides a great foundation for different things you might want to do in life. In our own team obviously our former partner, Jenna Cascot Leab is now the chair of the ageable sea. We have had a former lawyer who is now the attorney general, Michelle Roland. We have people who have gone on to become baristas and judges and people who have also made a name for themselves outside of law. People often use this as a great training ground and in time decide that their place is in-house and we have lots of people who have been fantastic lawyers here for a long time and then have gone in-house at clients of the firm. Similarly people have joined the other side and gone to the ageable sea in senior positions there as well. So there are a lot of opportunities that you can take from the experience that you get at G&T across both legal training, leadership, team building and the other elements of the roles that we play here that really are transferable to anywhere. People may have heard about the flat structure or less hierarchical structure we have at G&T. How does that work and what impact does it have on people at different stages of their legal careers? So in my experience G&T is a very collaborative place. Everybody is encouraged to contribute on matters and in also the life of the firm and everybody is listened to. Doesn't mean everyone will always get it right but people are free to and encouraged to really put their ideas and contributions out there and I think that that gives a real richness of experience and allows people to craft their own career journeys in a way that's a lot more suitable to their own talents and preferences and also allows the firm to get the best out of everybody's ideas the more perspectives you listen to and then assess and take into account appropriately the better outcome you're going to get for the firm and for our clients. So that's why we sort of take a very collaborative and flat approach to team structures and to running matters. And I think we have a reputation as a firm of being quite hardworking. Do you think that's fair and how does that leave room for all the other great stuff that we're talking about? Like at any corporate law firm we work hard and we do from time to time have client requirements and large matters that take up quite a bit of time. I do not think that we work any harder than any other firm. What I think we do a bit differently is we don't have this sense of just putting in the hours for the sake of putting in the hours. People really have flexibility to do the other things that they might want to do with their day and people are encouraged to take breaks whenever they can. We have time in lieu policies. People are encouraged to take their annual leaves. I love traveling. I have had some amazing trips during my time. I also have two children and I have lots of friends and interests outside of work. I have managed to do things like pro bono throughout my time here. So you really can have that balance as well as doing the highest quality work when it really gets tough for a period of time. You knuckle down, you get through it and then you take your break. So I think that that is sort of true of any job that is really rewarding because with reward comes challenge as well. So one of the group and the firm I guess looking for in the summer clock and perhaps a graduate all year as well. So we expect people to be enthusiastic, really keen to learn and to show what they're learning. So ask questions if you don't understand something. Talk to your peers or the partner you're working with so that we know what you're thinking and so we can all work together in a cooperative way. Really enjoy the time that you have with us and use it as the opportunity to show us what you can do and try to deliver the best that you can for the team and for our clients. It's really an attitudinal thing rather than an attitudinal thing. Of course everybody is really bright and has had fantastic, educative experiences and we know that that's the case. So what we're looking for is people to bring that passion, that joy for what they do and to be part of a team and really show that effort and enthusiasm. What sort of work do you expect the group to be doing over the next year say that a new member might be part of? Well, at the moment we have looming merger reform that's coming in from 1st of January next year. We already have a very thriving merger clearance practice and work on many of the most exciting merger clearances that are around. But I think that with this merger reform we're just going to see more and more transactions getting in front of the ageable sea and we'll be learning together with the ageable sea how to navigate this new regime. So I feel like, you know, for the new people joining us. we'll all be learning together how best to use the new regime and to get the same kind of outcomes we've gotten for our clients to date but under new circumstances. So that's going to be one of the big challenges. There's lots of other law reform happening as well and there's the prospect of digital platform regulation around the corner and our team acts for a number of the large digital platforms. So there's always thinking to be done there. I do a lot of airline work and things are always taking off in that industry with a lot of aviation monitoring as well. So there's lots happening in the space and it's ever changing. There's always something new around the corner both in terms of the kind of work we do and the kind of clients we work for and that's what to me makes competition law particularly exciting. You really get to understand industries, your clients and no two days are the same and that's what's kept me here for 17 years and hopefully we'll inspire a lot of other new joiners to stay with GNT for the long haul too. Fantastic. Now before you go Louise there are some interview questions that a lot of candidates are getting from law firms. The rumors to be believed and I thought it might turn some of those back on you as a representative of the firm and the group. Sure. I guess the most typical one is what do you feel is the firm's greatest weakness? The firm's greatest weakness. That would have to be our striving for ambition which sometimes can be ruthless in wanting to achieve our outcomes for our clients. Oh yeah that sounds terrible. Where do you see Gilbert and Tobin in 10 years time? Undoubtedly as the number one commercial law firm in Australia. Take that to the bank. If GNT was an animal, what kind of animal would it be? A tiger. Very good. What historical figure would the CCMR group invite to a dinner party? Barricabama. And what would the CCMR group choose as its hype song? A hype song. Well I don't speak for the rest of the partnership when I say Nick Cave, Red Right Hand. Fantastic. Louise, thanks very much for joining us. A pleasure. So you and Louise spoke about our relatively flat structure at GNT and when we interviewed Gina Kaskot leave for this podcast just before she started at the A Triple C, she made some fascinating comments about how she involved junior staff in her matters. That's right. She always wanted to know everyone's ideas and she wanted us to share those ideas with clients or with regulators like she'd always done as she told you, Moya, in the interview that we'll take a list to now. Well you aren't somewhat famous around the firm for encouraging people to speak up, even in client meetings and even the most junior people. Why do you do that? Because not all senior partners or senior people in those roles do invite the most junior members of the team to object to them or to contradict them in front of a client or in front of an important audience. So there's a number of reasons for it, Moya. The first is that the younger people on the team will be across the detail at a level that I am not. They're often very fact intensive aren't they? These inquiries. They are. You certainly develop a capacity to you know what you want what you would expect to see but it doesn't mean you're always going to see that. I always engage with the clients, hear the aspects, try to build up their appreciation of the situation but the team will be looking and really in a sense themselves testing from data documents and that process of building up a very robust understanding is critical and if I have missed something if there's something that contradicts we will not be giving the right advice. So first of it just is that for accuracy and for the integrity of what we're doing it's essential. I also want people to think and if we are giving them the parameters are always in just siloing their contribution. They're not a developing what their way of thinking more holistically. But in addition they're actually not bringing all the capacity that the incredibly intelligent people we have are capable of delivering so it's also a part of drawing that out. Many also come here. They come with data analytical skills. They come with perspectives that we don't have and it refreshes reinvigorate. It sure does and I think everyone here has the same approach and the same values starting with Danny Gilbert and they're a big part of the wider firm as well as the group that Gina helped to build. We'll link to the full interview with Gina in the show notes and we're all very proud of her elevation to Lord of all she surveys. We are and we have a lot of alumni who keep going from strength to strength. Well yes I remember the time before Michelle Rolland was famous. She was always famous around here. That's true but maybe I should say I knew her before she was honorable. As in capital H. Yes. Michelle has been the member for Greenway in Sydney since 2010 and she's moved from Shadow Communications Minister to Attual Communications Minister and has now become an author to any general. And back when she was elected she had some great things to say about GNT in her first speech. During my 10 years as a lawyer at Gilbert and Tobin in Sydney I specialised in telecommunications regulation, competition, privacy and broadcasting laws. I work with some of the largest companies in Australia and the world and this exposed me to the realities and the challenges of the corporate environment. There's a long list of colleagues from this time whom I want to thank who taught me both the substantive legal and technical expertise I needed and also life skills like resilience, collaboration and problem solving. I'm also grateful to Gilbert and Tobin for giving me the opportunity to work on projects around the world that nurtured my personal belief in the power of information technology to deliver just social outcomes. Nice to be reminded of that. Michelle actually worked in an adjacent group but we did loads of telco regulatory work together. Yeah and CCMR is a group that works broadly across the firm so it's adjacent to just about everybody. Indeed M&A transactions all have an atrical sea angle now that we have a mandatory notification regime. And there can be litigation or enforcement action their own competition issues. And regulatory work is very sector-specific like energy regulation for example which is relevant to our environmental and climate change work. And pro boners in area where our lawyers get very involved. I remember when the Taliban took power in 2021 G&T represented a lot of Afghan clients seeking visas. A call out went to the whole firm for hands on deck and over 100 lawyers got involved. It was an amazing time actually everyone from partners to paralegals was pulling their weight and it was one of those moments that made me really proud to be at G&T actually especially assisting some of the women's football team. Yeah and other groups in the firm have also featured people like our current governor general Sam Muston. Indeed and still with us our constitutional expert and YouTube sensation Dr Anne Tumi and filmmaker Peter Castes who's in the IP group. And we can't forget all the accomplished judges senior council and other baristas that have come from CCMR and the adjacent disputes team. Not to mention former partner Christine Burke who climbed the highest mountain on every continent on earth. Yeah I mean they say that climbing down is harder than climbing up and I did make the descent down the stairs from the 35th floor last time we had a fire drill. I guess you'd know then everybody does have a story to tell. Well I'm convinced how do we apply? This is sounding like a scene from the intern. Well we're not quite as old as Robert Tadira wouldn't that feel. Well no but there is no age limit for applicants or any kind of limit for that matter. We really do look for a diverse intake. What matters is the characteristics and capabilities of the person inside motivated talented curious supportive genuine and wanting to have a red hot go. And if that's you then take a look at gtlaw.com.au/careers. Clutch your applications for Sydney Melbourne and Perth will be closing soon so get yours in. All the links are in our show notes. And if you enjoyed this special episode remember to subscribe, leave us a review and tell your friends or best of all come and work with us. Till next time this was the competitive edge with Gilbert and Tobin. [BLANK_AUDIO]