“Speak With Frameworks: How HR Leaders Win the Room” with Vicky Zhao, Founder, School of Human Intellect and Speaking With Frameworks

[MUSIC] This is the future of HR podcast, episode 197. [MUSIC] Executive communication is it's about zooming in and also you influence the action being taken in the room. Zooming in means that yes, we understand the details of what's going on, what have the teams done for this project. At the same time, it's being able to go up a level and say, okay, so what's the so what of everything that the team has done? So being able to go up and say, now connecting it to the goal that we're doing, connecting it to the result that we want to achieve. How can we make sure that we're getting that across? At the executive level, one of the roles is to make sure everyone understands what's going on is all the key. So having that North Star being able to zoom in and out and then being able to also bring the whole team towards the same understanding as how we're going to get to that decision at the end of the day. How can you think and communicate like an executive? Why is your strategy only as good as your ability to communicate it? Hi, I'm your host, JPL8, and this is the future of HR podcast. The only podcast whose mission is to inspire the next generation of HR leaders. On each episode, I interview successful HR executives and thought leaders who are reimagining, rethinking and leading our field into the future. During our candid conversation, you will learn about their career journeys, their lessons learned along the way, and their insights on how to take our field, and most importantly, your career to the next level. Over the past three years on future of HR, I've talked with more than 175 CHRs and HR thought leaders about what separates good HR leaders from the great ones. And one thing is clear, the best HR leaders see themselves as business leaders with HR expertise. But here's the challenge, most HR leaders were never taught to think, communicate and operate that way. That's why I created the next gen HR accelerator, a four week intensive virtual program for HR directors and managers who want to have more impact and influence. Together we build your business and financial acumen, sharpen your strategic thinking, and develop the communication skills to influence executives and deliver measurable results. You also get a targeted 360 feedback and two coaching sessions with me. Over 158 HR leaders from companies like Nike, Prudential, Cardinal Health, McDonald's, and Coca-Cola have already graduated. Our next cohort starts September 15th and enrollment closes September 4th. Visit futureofhr.com or drop me a line and reserve your spot today. And with that, my guess this week is Vicki's Owl. Vicki is a former management consultant and Google alumni who now helps professionals around the world think and communicate with clarity. She founded the School of Human Intellect and through her work on speaking with frameworks, she teaches the mental models that executives use instinctively and shows how anyone can learn them. With over 11 million views on her YouTube channel, an upcoming LinkedIn learning course and a book in the works, Vicki is fast becoming one of the go-to experts on executive communication. In my conversation with Vicki, we'll explore what actually means to communicate like an executive versus communicating to an executive. The frameworks that help you stay cool and sharp under pressure, how to use bottom line up front thinking to reach clarity faster, and why giving yourself permission to contribute is the foundation for showing up like an executive. I'd love to hear your thoughts in this episode, so feel free to drop me a line and link in and say hello. And with that, here's my conversation with Vicki. Vicki, welcome to the future of HR podcast. How are you? Thank you, JP, for having me. I'm doing very well excited to get into all this speaking with frameworks and executive communication. Love this topic. Oh, yeah, definitely. And let's just jump into it. You are a former management consultant. You've worked at Google. And now you're helping professionals all the world think and communicate with clarity. And you have helped me and have just been so impressed with what you're doing. But tell us more about your path and how speaking with frameworks became your mission. Yeah, for sure. I actually grew up in a household full of academics. So when I grew up, I thought, oh, it's normal if people don't understand these amazing thinkers because that's just the way it is. When I went to a law school, that was the first moment where I realized, oh, you know, we're all students, but how come some people can just make boring law sound so interesting, so easy to understand? That was kind of the first moment where I realized, oh, maybe communicating clearly is actually a skill that I can build on. And then I went to management consulting. And as you can imagine, these kinds of always sea level, exact level conversations, it really opened my eyes to how nothing in the world moves unless you can get your point across in a way that's clear in a way that other people are interested in hearing what you're saying. And the best ideas don't win the room. It's always the one that's the clearest, right? I think the Disney CEO mentioned this where he said that your strategy is as good as you communicate it. That's what I saw every single project. And so I realized this is a skill I need to build. And luckily, management consulting, one of the first bootcamp training is to think on your feet, think fast and communicate clearly. So that's how I got there. Well, look at journey and your rights. So important that we can communicate our ideas with clarity, be concise, be compelling. And I also, I remember earlier my career started to realize that a lot of times people didn't want to be the one that took the notes or put the plan together. But I was like, actually, if you're the one that puts the plan together, it's your idea. And I think it's a little bit of like having a clear plan. People start to follow you. But if you can also communicate that plan, if you can help people synthesize the ideas in the meeting, help them understand where we need to go. People are going to follow you. You're going to be more influential. But let's talk about some people who might hear they're not coming across as an executive in the way they communicate. Maybe, for instance, I don't know, someone might say they need to be more strategic, be more executive like three-point-of-view. What does this kind of feedback actually mean? This we hear a lot. And in the end, what it means is you're not thinking about the decision being made. So when we think about going into a meeting and having a discussion about something, everyone's thinking about, oh, what should I talk about? How can I make sure that I sound? Clever, I sound, like someone who knows their thing that makes sure that other people don't push back on me. Rather, executive communication is we're going to this room and at the end, we need to make a decision. Our strategy is how can we reach our goal in a way that we make the best decisions to get there? So when you start to think about the decision at the end of the day, it's a lot easier to be strategic, to be sounding like an executive because you start to pay attention to, okay, what's the goal here? What's the problem here? What's the solution? How can I make sure I tie these things together so that everyone is on the same page and moving towards that North Star, that goal? Yeah, and so it's not about how we communicate and saying fancy things. It's really about how do we make sure we're getting to a natural goal? When you think about what does it mean to communicate like an executive? It's about zooming in and also you influence the action being taken in the room. So we can talk about that. But at the same time, it's being able to go up a level and say, okay, so what's the so what of everything that the team has done? So being able to go up and say, now connecting it to the goal that we're doing, connecting it to the result that we want to achieve, how can we make sure that we're getting that across at the executive level when they're not interested in the necessary details unless they want to probe? And then there's also going across in the sense of making sure that everyone's on the same page, right? We go into a conversation, assuming a lot of things, assuming we're talking about the same project, assuming we were talking about the same goals, the same problem, the same solution, but many times actually these are not so obvious. Having a clear head, knowing that at the executive level, one of the roles is to make sure everyone understands what's going on is also key. And how do you think about difference between communicating like an executive and communicating to an executive? Are those the same skill? How do you think about that? I love that point. So first of all, let's talk about this distinction as a really key way of thinking like executive first. So I talk about frameworks in how you use framework thinking in order to communicate and it's all about understanding how do you separate vague concepts into things that people can't understand. So for example, like you mentioned, speaking like an executive versus speaking too executive, are different points. Let's take one at a time. When we speak like an executive, what we're focused on is getting to that end goal. So I talk about this very simple framework called GPS, goal problem solution. So once they go into this conversation is about, okay, is everyone on the same page with the goal? Do we know what the actual problem is? Not the problem that we assume might be the one, but do we look at the root cause? Do we actually know what it is? And then what is our solution? Then within that is thinking through, okay, have we thought through the tradeoffs? Have we thought through alternatives? So at the executive level, when you speak like an executive, you want to make sure that you let everyone in the room bring out their expertise and be able to make sure that that decision is made in the best way that it can. Based on uncertainty, right? We can never know 100% but how can we make sure we pull that out from everyone? Now, when you speak like an executive is keeping those things in mind while applying it to your own work because you probably have a better advantage of this being in HR, which is that the best people who move up are the people who were really good at doing something. They've executed someone give them, hey, here's a project, here's a task, they do it wonderfully so then they keep on moving up, but it's really difficult to get rid of the do or mindset and move into the leader mindset of, okay, we've done all of these things are so what? Right, so being able to communicate like executive is to keep that translation in mind of, here's everything that we've done, but how can a translate so that it helps the executive conversation? Yeah, and you talked about we're going to get into GPS here in a minute, so I think that's such an important piece, but maybe going back to like the nor star. So, executes are very focused, they're intentional. And to your point, if you're in a meeting with executives, they're there to make a decision, maybe they get some more information they need to make a decision, maybe to hear from others, but it's almost always about making a decision. Otherwise, the work, why do you need me here, I'm here thinking about how we continue around the business, so maybe going back and just thinking how do you go in and prepare for me with an executive leveraging the way you think about kind of nor star and the context and everything else that might go into it, keeping that simple. So you don't get lost or not ready to maybe show up like an executive in that meeting. There are several ways that you can do this and there's something I talk about, which is thinking for the mistake, a lot of people make when preparing for these conversations is to have a simple list of, oh, these are the things that I'm going to talk about, but when you're in the moment and you know executives, they think fast, they push when they need to and when you feel the pressure and they say, okay, well skip to slide 20 instead because that's interesting. When we just think in one day, so a list, when we are pushed to move around, then all of a sudden we lose track because the logic of the linear flow doesn't work. So when you prepare instead of thinking in one dimension is at least to do two dimension, which is to have anchors out of all the things that you want to talk about, which ones are the key concepts that you want to be comfortable with and keep in mind so that you understand when someone pushes you. Or someone interrupts you, you can always get to one of the anchors that get your point across. So goal problem solution is a great anchor to start with to know that, okay, I go into this conversation, doesn't matter what happens, I know clearly in one sentence, what is our goal, what's our nor star, what is the problem. So and not just the fake problem, but the real problem with the root cause analysis behind it and then the solution why we believe that's real one then when you're in those conversations high pressure is a lot easier to make sure you gather your train of thought even when someone disrupts you or someone says, hey, but I'm pushing back, you know, is this the right thing to do you can say, oh, interesting. So maybe you feel like the solution is not quite right, do we believe at least that the problem that we're working on is the correct one and this way you can really engaging that conversation and bring out the information. When I love about the goal problem solution is that one, it gives you a model to get ready to prepare for meeting. So we know you're going to meeting it's a high stakes meeting you can already start to say, okay, what's the goal of this meeting from my perspective from that executive perspective or the executives in the room, what's the problem I think we're solving and what are the solutions and you should have a perspective and every one of those it should be your perspective, not just what you think you're going to hear in the room like what is the solution. Then I think this is where that improv piece comes in so you can start to adapt and adjust to pay on what happens and I think what I'm hearing you say, Vicki is like, oh, well, I thought it was this problem or the goal, but I'm hearing a different goal in this meeting now how do we reconcile that so how do you start to handle when it starts to go off and you say, okay, I prepare for this meeting for this goal, this problem solution. And now it seems like it's not the same goal problem solution, what do you suggest people do then I love that first you brought out this you have your point of view you have your understanding of what these things are because as a leader, this is what you think it is it trickles down all the way to everything that your team is doing has all aligned to this. But going into conversations this is probably the most human thing that we could do which is conversations are two way street a lot of people because it's nerve wracking they think, okay, I'm just going to go in there I'm going to say the things I'm going to say and then that's the end don't ask me any questions because I don't want to hear that we're not allowing them things. But if you switch the mindset of okay actually every single executive conversation is a two-way street no one actually we're having a discussion because things are not clear so there is actually the point is to have a conversation about this and make sure everyone's on the same page then you start to lose the fear around am I saying the right things like do they think I know what I'm talking about but rather hey these are the things that we've seen we've done a lot of work behind this to understand that this is you know our HR's point of view. For example and then you go in there and they say oh but we feel like the problem is somewhere else when now we're getting to the core of the discussion to start to be more collaborative in the conversation of oh tell me why you think this way or what kind of information don't we have because that brings up the second part of executive communication which is there's a lot of information asymmetry. Usually you have people from different departments you have sea level people who are having conversations that you don't always get to listen into so knowing that going into conversations there's a moment for you to un-surface the information is symmetry which makes you doing the work a lot easier because now you understand oh this is their context but they haven't shared with me or with others in the room and now we can talk about exactly what that context is that makes the conversation a lot easier. So going into conversations expecting there will be pushback is actually a great way of then collaborating rather than making it a oh am I right or are you right. Yeah so obviously pushback and you're going to get pushed back we're going to hear people that are confused you're going to hear conflicting points of view again love the goal problem solution because it allows you to start to ask questions around will are we do we get clear in the goal. I'm hearing three different goals in this conversation which one do we think is the real goal what's really most important what problem are really solving right and then what are the potential solutions we get and being flexible but I wonder if you in that moment when maybe someone is pushing back or we're getting challenged or maybe we were off based some of our own assumptions and leaders sort of now challenging us taking us different direction like what are some techniques we can do to get back on our game not get sort of maybe knock down or slow down by an executive who throws us a random curveball. One simple one that really helps thinking in moment is via negative which just means focusing on what's not going into a conversation sometimes it's everyone is talking about oh it should be a it should be B it should be C. So a good way to reframe that conversation is just to say okay so let's start with what it is not about because sometimes that is the forcing function we need to get clear alright you know now we're unconsciously widening the scope of what we're actually doing so if we just focus on what is not about it gets a lot easier to talk about what is it actually. So give us an example what that is I know v negative is a new concept for a lot of us probably but talk about what that would actually look like from your experience. Let's just say the company says oh AI is disrupting everything that we do what are we going to do different departments might come with different conversations like oh we looked into the data we need to absolutely shift to a AI first workforce in the next five years right someone else my comment and say no actually human judgment. Most important we got to have all of these conversations as well as everyone's discussing and you don't know where you're going a great way just to say is okay there's a lot of possible ways that we can deal with this less first set some constraints of what is our strategy not about and just by posing that question everyone was start to think that okay this is not about technology as the core of our company but this is rather about how we're going to win based on our competitive advantage that could be a Huawei, I'm thinking about it. Okay, so then What is it not about? Someone else might say, "Okay, that's true. What we don't want to think about is how can we copy other companies, but what can we do to bring out the strength of our own?" Okay, now we're starting to see there's some patterns of people focusing on the companies innate competitive advantage. Now, being the good synthesizer, the no-taker, as you were mentioning earlier on, to point that out for people to say, "Okay, I'm starting to hear that what we don't want to do is get distracted by all of these trends and what's possible or not possible, but we want to focus on our competitive advantage." Okay, so let's talk about it. What are they? This way, it makes the decision-making process, the discussion process, a lot easier to process for everyone. Yeah, I love that. So it's really about, is you start to hear people going in a certain direction, is to figure out what is it not? We've talked about this, but one thing you'll see the executives do some times is that we're talking about to be turnover and something like, "Well, the turnover is a compensation." They say, "Well, it's not a compensation issue, actually, it's a management issue." So you start to then try to change the argument a little bit of reframing that. Is that another approach you can take? I mean, I love how you listen more around this, but I've seen it more of, it's not about this. It's more about this and let's talk about what I just brought up versus what you brought up. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely, especially if you prepared a head of time of, "Hey, this is the goal, this is a problem, and this is a solution," then it's a lot easier to do via negative in the moment of saying, "Oh, right. The problem you're talking about maybe is the superficial one that we started with, but because we've done the analysis, I know it's not about compensation, it's actually about management. That makes it a lot easier to be in the moment and say, "Oh, okay, I see. We had different assumptions about what the problem actually is, and then it's a lot easier to then expand on that idea as well." So helpful. I think one of the messages I hope people take away, I mean, one, they probably need to do more research on you, follow your YouTube page and some of your work, and obviously pick up your book when it gets out. But I think when you think about executives, they are speaking of frameworks. So it's not that they are robots and have just basically repeat things back, but there's a framework inside their mind. It can be gold problem solution. Other people might say, "What? So what? Now what is similar?" And different. There's all these different kind of mental models that people leverage. You can give us a couple of these ones, but what else, Vicki, do you go to that are simple? People can use, that will help people may respond or prepare, respond in the moment or prepare for a big meeting. Yeah, and there are lots of these to keep in mind. The easiest one, especially when you enter executive communication, territory is to flip your thinking and to put the bottom line up top. So as we've talked about previously, when we first begin our career, it was always about working things through step-by-step, right? And then by extension, we sometimes end up communicating step-by-step chronologically. Of, "Oh, let me start you from the very beginning where we did the research and then we kept on iterating these other problems we talked about." And it becomes rambly because they're like, get to the point. What is the point? The point is the thing that the other person wants to know about. You feel like, "Oh, I'm burying the point." It's because usually the conclusions at the very end. Once you've done all of this thinking, you realize, "Ah, the conclusion is this." So start there. Flip everything and start with the bottom line up front and then give them a map of how to understand that. So the pyramid principle is a great one in management consulting that I feel like applies to every single industry when you are communicating very clearly, which means start with your answer. And then talk about the three points that support that answer. And only then do you get into the details of, "Oh, here's the data here. The analysis here is all of the great things that the team have done." But you have to be comfortable knowing that you know what the answer is and be able to articulate that. So that's a very easy one to start with. Bottom line up front. I love that one. Well, a lot of people are using AI as a thought partner and I know you've been doing a lot in the space to be really innovative. But you actually say we shouldn't be thinking of AI as a smart intern that helps us get more done. That sounds nice, but you actually argue it was retreating, AI as a chief of staff and showing up with what you call big boss energy. So tell us more about how do we get big boss energy out of our AI and stop just acting like it's an intern, but really get to be a thought partner. Big boss energy comes from the fundamental underlying problem of we are thinking more like a doer than a leader. One of the things that happens in executive conversations is that we don't feel comfortable speaking like an executive because we're wondering like, "Oh, am I the right person to do this in this moment?" Or like everyone else probably knows a lot more than me. Beneath a big boss energy and beneath doing well executive conversations, at the end is to give yourself permission to say that, "Oh, I am invited to this conversation." So I have something to contribute. So let me use that. So with AI is the same thing. AI will always default to the mediocre average result that is statistically predict is most likely. But if you will bring to it the big boss energy of, "Okay, I don't want you to help me do the simple task and tell me they average things, but I want you to think at a higher level as we've talked about before, zooming in, zooming out, being able to think, okay, me as the person is not only able to do the small day-to-day people problem, people throw at me, but I am also at the executive level of thinking about the bigger picture. Where are we going? What's our North Star? How can we use people, human capital to be able to get us there? You've just granted yourself permission to think like a big boss. And in the executive conversations, people will never ask you, "Oh, so how would you like to approach this problem?" They just assume you show up as a big boss. So using AI is a great way to practice that and say, "What is it that I'm able to impact? Can I elevate the things that I want to think about and talk about with a thought partner so that I go into those conversations, feeling more comfortable with, I've already practiced my points, I've already tried to articulate it, and I've had a third party start to iterate on those ideas with me." Yeah, that's great. I think what you're really saying is that AI would get what you put into AI. So if we just ask AI to write our emails, it's great. You'll get some emails back. But if we start to leverage AI as a real thought partner and say, "Hey, this is how I'm approaching this big meeting, this is the challenge I have, this has like helped me think this through, like what my role could be, but pushing yourself to leverage AI to solve some of these bigger challenges." Now, ultimately, we're the ones that puts the prompt, we are the ones that have the context, we have to judge if these ideas were good or not. We're not just doing it AI tells us. However, it can be a great thought partner to really push and to not take the first answer or to continue to do this. And it's great for practicing for executive communications. It could be a good roleplay. So I think it's a really, really beneficial way to leverage AI. Anything else you might add on that piece? Yeah, for sure. There's a great way of having AI surface some of the patterns that you see in executives. For example, I was talking to someone at OpenAI and one of the things that they do internally is to get the meeting transcripts of common meetings that include certain executives or key decision makers and figuring out what are the things they're always pushing on. So let's say, take the CFO. They might always be okay for, have you talked about the ROI of this? Have you made sure that you're not inflating the budget for an uncertain future? By knowing this ahead of time, whenever you know, hey, I got to talk to the CFO about this, you know what to prepare for. You know what they're going to push back on and you can make sure that you think about what they're going to ask ahead of time because again, the point is what the other person wants to hear. So you know exactly what are they looking for? Are you prepared for that? That's a really great way of getting AI to do it. You don't want to be sitting there reading through transcripts and taking this note by no as a figuring out what that is. So that's a great way of thinking about it. The other one is also to think about compression of okay, if I'm going to get my point across and I think this is my point is a compressing that idea for you. So you can prompt it by saying, hey, this is my idea. Give me the view of negative on it in order to sharpen my idea for me. And in my list things, you might agree with some, you might disagree with some, but just going through that process, you also realize, oh, I have a strong point of view on this answer because I don't agree with everything AI is saying. That gives you the evidence of you know what you're talking about. So feeling more confident to then have those conversations with real humans. Yeah, it's really great tips. I mean, you've been really going deep on this. What else in terms of what's the real differentiator to producing better content, better thinking with AI that you found in all of your your work and experimentation? I've been saying that bringing your own framework, which in the end is distilling your experience into what you should focus on. Let's say, for example, people might have heard of the Pareto principle 8020, which talks about when you do something, there are 20% of things that get you 80% of the results. And there are things that you put in 80% of the effort, but it only gives you 20% of the result. Knowing this principle and then asking AI to say, let's say, oh, we're working on an initiative, there are 10 things we could possibly do. Use 8020 and how many find was the highest impact gives you a really great result as opposed to which one should we do first? Right. Because which one should we do first, it'll just try to predict based on all of the information that's available and give you something. But if you help the AI focus on, hey, find the 20% with 80% leverage, then AI knows what to look for. And by the way, this applies not just to AI, but to humans, right? If you're working with your team and you're trying to figure out, hey, what do we think is the initiative that we should start with? Give them a framework. Think 8020, which one will bring us the most impact with least effort. That immediately gets everyone in the room to think in a way that is more directed. Yeah, I think it's a great advice. And it goes back to AI as a thought partner, which means we have to be thinking first. We have to put down what makes sense for us. Like, they're giving frameworks, perspectives, really kind of getting guardrails on where you want AI to start. We'll get you better output, I think in general, what you're saying. But I know you've got a lot of great content on this. So hopefully people will go check out your YouTube page and go down the path of exploring with you on that. Now, kind of getting a little more tactical and some advice for HR leaders. What's the first thing you tell a next to an HR leader who wants to show up differently in their next executive team meeting? What should they do? The first thing to do is to know that in every single conversation, all you need to do is articulate for yourself and for others. What is the goal problem and solution? Start there because once you have something to hold on to, it doesn't matter who throws pushback, it doesn't matter who brings up a different point of view, it doesn't matter who is challenging you, you know how to anchor your ideas. Strategy after all the complicated things we throw around it, in the end is about what is our goal and how are we going to make decisions to get there? Right? Which in practical terms means are we working on the right problem and are we working on the right solution? Being able to gather those points, prepare even one minute before you go into those conversations to know what you're doing, is already puts you ahead of 90% of people who are still worrying about, oh, you know, should I say this slide in one minute or two minutes, should I be worrying about the data that we're doing? All of that of course matters, but if you go in there and you cannot clearly articulate to yourself and to others, this is what I think the goal is, this is what I think the problem is, this is what I think the solution is, and then maybe adding on to that via negativa, I think we're working on this and we're not working on that. Then you already have so many tools to help you think clearly in the moment and be able to speak at the level of the executives who are just trying to figure out what are the information we need to make a better decision to get to that goal at the end. Yeah, I hope you will do take that and get more intentional about using GPS or goal problem solution. I think it will be a big game changer. Vicki, what about other resources besides maybe your YouTube channel, of course, upcoming courses, for next-gen charlators, that would help them improve their communications. I mean, are there books, other places that they should look to really help level up their game? First of all, is the Pyramid Principle by Barbara Minto. This is such a practical, quick read on how to flip our natural tendency to go from top to bottom, your chronological, but rather start with the answer and the structure of your idea in a way that's easy to both think through for yourself and for others to understand. The second one, that's really great, not a speaking book, but helps you anchor on that executive level, is playing to win how strategy really works by Roger Martin. He's a U of T University of Toronto professor whose worked in management his entire life, how he breaks it down, very easy to understand, and once you understand what people are looking for, the point is what others are looking for, then you can speak to that. And the last one, this is a very strange recommendation, but I want to recommend clearing the air by Hannah Richie, and while is a book about the environment and climate change, the structure that Hannah Richie used to write about this topic is such a great demonstration of how you can have a conversation that's complicated, the laws of parts like environment and managing climate changes so complicated, but she's able to start with understanding, okay, here are where people are misunderstanding, here's what it's not about, and then let's get it into here's what is about and walk you through step by step. So seeing that structure in play is a big example of how you can think about the difficult things that HR leaders talk about because right now there's so much going on with AI, with people, all the anxiety and all the opportunities, so hopefully that's also an interesting read. Great recommendation, Vicki, last question for you ask all my guests, what's one word of phrase you believe will define the future of HR over the next five to 10 years? Being able to give yourself permission, bring the big boss energy from HR into executive communication, because right now human capital is so crucial and having that HR point of view be at the core of what executives discuss would be so crucial, so hoping everyone will be bringing in that HR point of view into those conversations. Vicki, thanks so much for helping us understand how to better communicate like an executive and speak with frameworks, it's been a pleasure. Thank you JP. Thanks again to Vicki for helping us to think and communicate like an executive. As always you can go to futureofhr.com to view all of our past episodes and learn more about our mission to inspire the next generation of HR leaders. If you enjoyed this episode of Futureofhr, I think you'll enjoy my future of HR newsletter, which is the only newsletter that's focused on helping you to elevate your career and business impact. Go to futureofhr.com to subscribe and be sure to download my HR leaders blueprint, which is 18 pages full of real-world advice from a hundred plus HR thought leaders with simple, actionable, and proven strategies to advance your career. We'll be back next week with another amazing guest that you will not want to miss. Thanks again for being part of our Futureofhr community.