Source of the Sauce | Ep. 02

I'm Rachel Alde and this is the Hospitality Breakroom, a podcast full of nuggets and secret sauce where every Monday we'll shed light on what we've learned from the countless mistakes we've made along our journey in the chaotic and rewarding world of vacation rentals. Hi and welcome back to the Hospitality Breakroom. This is officially our second episode and this time we have a guest with us. It's Lini. Lini is part of two people that are tandemly which is a consulting company that we at a boat luxury rental started working with five years ago. Yep, about five years ago. And Lini and Hart both have done so much work with our team. It's been monumental and so Lini and I are going to talk today about the work we've done together and how we got from where we started to where we are now. So Lini, do you want to give a little background? Sure. Hi, I'm Lini Jones. I am one half of tandemly as Rachel mentioned. My better professional half, Hart Logan is unfortunately not here today. We're a management consulting firm and we help companies as they scale. So you know, doesn't have to be necessarily venture backed or tech. We love we have love working with boat. It's been a very fun journey for us to try out all of our secret sauce with you all and just see the growth that's happened. Yeah. So I talk about tandemly and Lini and Hart constantly like to everyone I know and everyone that I meet including our homeowners and guests and anytime that I'm on a podcast. And I think that's because my husband Rob and I we know that you know we got to a certain point with our company and we knew that we were really lucky to have the team that we had and have like an amazing company culture sort of by accident. But we had no idea how we got there and we knew we had no idea how to keep it going. And so that is when we reached out and wanted to find a consultant and really it's because we read this book called Tribal Leadership which is right right right right. It's bringing up Tribal Leadership. And it's this book that we read after we heard about the book in another book that's probably here delivering happiness from Tony Shea. And anyway, Tribal Leadership was like such a big deal for me when I read it and then when Rob read it that like a little bit of a psycho I reached out to or I tried to reach out to the authors of the book and one of the authors is Dave Logan and I ended up getting a hold of Lini because at the time Lini was working for like a consulting group that the authors of Tribal Leadership had put together and so I ended up talking to Lini and then working with Hart and Hart is one of the authors Dave Logan Hart is his wife and so that's how we ended up that's how Rob and I ended up finding Lini and Hart and we really didn't know what we were getting into because we'd never worked with any consultants before but it ended up being like the best thing ever and I think we first reached out right before COVID. It was right before COVID you reached out you were like hey can you do this training for and for those of you who don't know Tribal Leadership actually describes the culture stages of a company so when you're looking at your own organization people are in different stages and so it's a really it's a really good read and I think it's really helpful and it was helpful for you and you're changing yeah me like some of the nuggets that I got from Tribal Leadership like my favorite one is it was talking about like being in so there's the five stages right so like stage two or three maybe you can remind me was when it's like when you feel like your company's really good but everyone else is kind of a problem sort of so I was like very consumed with the idea of our competitors and that we had to like be better and like not that I wanted to like attack our competitors but just like I was stealing negative towards our company which was not enjoyable for me and I really didn't know what to do with that until I read this book and then it was talking about I think is that stage two stage two is my life sucks so you see other people out there that are having a good time in a good life but we always use the TSA pre-check as an example yeah because they're in those itchy uniforms and they're watching people with rollerboards go off on vacation or fun business trips yeah and so like they're you know there are there are going to be people at your organization that have that attitude like my life sucks but other people there yeah are great and then stage three is I'm great but you know everybody else kind of so I think it was like stage three ish like yeah but I was too in it yeah and so I just remember reading Tribal Leadership and realizing like wow I need to be focusing on our company and on us and I don't need to be having these like negative feelings about our competitors I guess I sort of before reading the book I sort of thought it was helpful for me to have like a healthy competitive feeling with my you know peers in the industry and but I was taking it somewhere negative and then Tribal Leadership and I'm not doing a good job explaining how that went great for me when I read it it was like the eye opening moment of like I don't need to be concerned with my competitors I don't need to see them negatively I need to be competing with myself like we need to be focused on what we're doing and it was a huge shift for me and it was really that shift that again I don't feel like I'm making it as impactful as it was for me but it was and that it was that that made me want to reach out to the author of the book and figure out like okay I'm having this shift within myself that like helping me realize that I need to be more positive overall within my own company and also outside of it and I wanted to be able to like teach that to my team yeah yeah and so anyway so tangent as always but so that's how Lenny and I met in heart too and then that started our journey into working together to sort of number one excavate what was so good about this team that we had how did we get that team and how could we keep that team happy and continue to get more team members that were also like values of my values yeah which at the time we didn't even know what our values were and actually at the time I was like really averse to wanting to even have company values but anyway throughout this whole process we got from me not wanting to have any company values now totally being into it having all the values and our team we do tons of work on that topic so I don't know you want to like tell part of the story of that yeah so it was really interesting so it was funny because values are things that your operating like you and Rob were already making decisions based on values before but they weren't named and so what I love about values is like you've mentioned the concept of excavation they exist already so little nugget for those in the audience if you the last time you were super super mad or super joyous you've had an out of value that was violated or a value that was honored yeah and so for those of you like I actually have a therapist background I spent my 20s in Silicon Valley so I worked at a lot of places where there was a lot of values that were violated and so you know moving through organizations and just seeing poor behavior yeah along the way so if you own a company if you work at a company think about you know the behaviors that are rewarded and think about the behaviors that aren't because that's a really important concept to think about I mean that's been super important to me because there's time when Linnie's been with me and we'll be doing stuff for work and I'll have some like more intense reaction to something that's going on at work and for me it's like in my heart I know that's because whatever's happening is you know triggering something in me right but for it to be explained that that there's a values violation going on it's okay right and like that's what's making me trigger it's like that's so helpful that I've been so helpful to me because you know like if you're at work and you're especially if you're running an organization and you have like something that really pisses you off and you kind of have like a blew up like what the heck you know that and then you oh I mean I always feel guilty after that kind of like oh I shouldn't have I shouldn't have handled it that way and then the way my brain works I'm like why did I do that sharp and usually I would never know I would kind of I'm trying to figure it out but I wouldn't really be able to get to the bottom of it but learning about like oh okay there's the concept of that is probably because of a values violation and then being able to think back about like what is the value that this situation violated for me and how can I help explain that to the person I was dealing with so they don't have to engage like that with me again and I mean that's been huge and also for me to learn like just how to operate within my values with my team on an ongoing basis it's I mean I think I used to be a lot more explosive at work and that's not to say I'm some like freak running around yelling at people but I used to have a lot more explosive situations and I feel like now it's calmed a lot and a lot of that has to do with the coaching and the help that Tandemly and Linian Hart have done with us so that we can understand our values we can understand how they affect us all every day it's been huge I'm so glad to hear that yeah it was funny our feelings are an internal map of our internal world yeah so like they're there to let us know when things aren't right yeah and so one thing with company values that I think is really cool is like you can't have opposition like oppositional values to your companies but they can't like you want them to kind of be in flow yeah and so I think you know that's something that I've really I've really seen your growth in that specifically like and I think part of that's the anyogram too yeah like where you sort of realize like okay you're all wired differently we all have different personalities we have different ways in which are brainspire and it's okay yeah so the anygram has been massively huge that's another thing like anytime I'm on a podcast or I'm talking to people at conferences which we're all about to have happened soon with the RMA International and anytime I'm doing that I feel like I'm always talking about therapy that books about our consultants and about the anygram which is funny because like we're in hospitality and I'm talking about all these other things that don't seem related I think are very related so the anygram has been massive for myself for me and my husband and our relationship and for my team and for our company culture overall so we have everyone on our team anyone that joins the company they take the anyogram and they are allowed to have their partner or spouse take it and we pay for it for them to take it and like at this point I have had like all of my family I mean myself my parents, my sisters, spouses. Like, I mean, a lot of people have shaken the anyogram. My life, I meet people at conferences or like I meet new friends. I literally will have linear and hard send them. Like I will pay for them to send the anyogram test to like so many people that I meet. There's a number of people in the vacation rental industry who have taken the anyogram because I had linear and hard-thended them. - I feel like I've done five debriefs. Like the Alex, both Alex and Annie, I'm like, you know, Heather Bayer, - Yeah. - That's folks in Alabama who are great ginger and-- - Ginger and Hunter, yeah. - And it's like, I meet people and then I tell them about the anygram and then I'm like, okay, you have to take it. I'm gonna have someone send you. 'Cause people will take it online. It's not the same. - So anyway, let's not accurate. - Don't take it online. It's about 60% accurate. And it's actually only accurate for the threes and eights. And so, Rachel, yeah, the threes and eights they can kind of pick it up. But we use a version out of South Africa called the IEQ9. It was developed by a five, which is a really good thing if you know the anyogram. Deep thinkers, slow, slow deep thinkers very thoughtful and methodical. And so, you know, Hart had been studying this for about 20 years. So she, her and Dave are like USC, they did a UCLA extension course and it was never corporate enough. Like it was always this kind of woo, woo therapy. - Hart told me that the anygram was started like, like when Christianity was created or something. - Couple thousand years ago. - It's very, very old. - It's crazy to me. - It's really old. - Yeah. - They knew something and then it had a resurgence in the 70s. When just psychologists went to like Coastal California, really, you know, they would, and they would spend a week with you. They would sit you down. They would bring all of your, you know, thoughts to light. And then they would type, you like type you and like you are an age or you are a seven. So it's this whole big thing. - Okay. - It's pretty. - Interesting. So yeah, so what happened was when we first started talking with Lenin Hart, they suggested that we do the anygram. Rob, my husband and I, you know, again, Rob and I, you know, started our company about luxury rentals together. We still own it and run it together. And so when they first started working with us, they were like, okay, why don't you take, you both take the anygram. So my husband, Rob is a nine and I'm an eight, which I'm gonna let Lenin speak to what that means. Sure, but once we did some sessions of coaching with Lenin Hart regarding our anygram results, it was again, so eye opening for me, because there were so many, the way that the anygram helps you to understand how you interact with other people was huge for me just within my marriage. And so once I had this big eye opening moment and it was so helpful that I knew like immediately, okay, the whole team has to take this test. And I remember at the time we were kind of like, a lot of money, like should we really, but anyway, we did it. And then everyone, we thought maybe like people on the team wouldn't really care, they wouldn't do anything with the information that they got, but we were wrong or I was, at least it was probably me that thought that. And our team has really run with it. They all, mostly all, are really into their anygram members. They've really learned and we've done a lot of like, we've done a lot of sessions and workshops explaining it and kind of teaching people, 'cause it's an intra-personal measure. So like, who am I? Interpersonal. So like who are we is sort of a unit, a duo, and then a like a systemic team measure. So it's funny that you and Rob, like you being an eight, Rob being an nine, you have a seven team. So team style, which is pretty, like crazy, you know, but think we're sure of our team is seven. - Yeah, so it's interesting. Like I didn't even think that from the results we would find out that like the majority of people are one number or another. There's nine anygram members. You can have a one through a nine. So in my head, I just figured like, oh, it's probably evenly spread. Like, oh, definitely not. Like I forget, I don't know if you know off top, you're ahead how many people are sevens. But it's like, it's in the more than two thirds. - Well, it should I maybe explain like kind of orient, okay, so for listeners who have never heard of this. So there's nine numbers, Rachel's, you know, introduce that. There's a way in which we think, feel and act. So those of you who've ever done CBT therapy, it's actually a line's really nicely. That's how it was trained psychodynamically and was CBT. But the eight, nine and one is all about action style. So the world is kind of coming at you. And as a result, eight sort of press back, active controller, nine's sort of waffle between what should I do, what should you do and like they really want to keep the piece as the adaptive piece maker. And then the one is going to do it internally perfectly. So they're very focused on like the perfect solution and closing the gap between what is and what could be. So that's all about action and it's really around control. So then you have like your two, three, four, which is feeling connected to our heart. - Okay, right. - Two is like really the considered helper who are folks that are picking up on other people's feelings. - Yeah. - Fours are very focused on their own feelings. - Okay, yeah. - Back to the creative, the intense creative. And they're very good at like noticing and holding space with their own feelings. - Okay. - Three, the competitive achiever, they're sort of going, how do I feel, how do you feel, how do I feel, how do you feel? I don't know, I need to achieve, I need to be the best. And so, you know, they have these kind of contours numbers. And that's really to heart and acceptance. So two, three's and fours, two's really want to feel accepted, three's definitely want to feel accepted, fours are more about self-explanation. - Okay. - And then lastly, the last quadrant is the thinking, five, six, seven, and that's related to fear. For sevens or seven friends, it's external enthusiastic visionary. And that's really kind of fear of missing out. And so they're, you know, - Fomos 17. - Fomos 17. - Yeah, Fomos 17. But think about it, you run a vacation rental company. - It's perfect. - And people here want to play, they want to see, they want to enjoy. - Yeah. - So, you know, sevens are the fastest thinking type, but also kind of, or can be a little bit like squirrel. - Then you would think I was a seven, 'cause I was so squirrely. - Well, you have a six, you have a six thing in your cell, but you do have a lot of seven. - Okay. - And so, six is actually the in between. So that's the loyal skeptic. So, sixes are always thinking about what could go wrong. And that's what I think makes you so good at business, because you're thinking like, where can we run out of money? Where's the legislation going? - Yeah. - I've seen you really like dig into that. That's essential in business. And so, sixes have that kind of energy, skeptical energy. And then, five, as we talked about it, the, you know, inventor of this IEQ9 is a five. And those are the quiet specialists. So, very thinking, very slowly, very deeply. But there, when they say they know something, they really know. I feel like we only have two fives, right? If a couple fives, you have probably, I mean, 50 people, you have in the 20s of seven. - Okay. - Yeah. - 'Cause I feel like, some of the things, like little nuggets, I've learned about Enneagram is like fives intrigue me, because it seems like we haven't had that many. And they're like the testers, right? They're always testing things. Is that right? - A little. - Like they're like the librarian, like, is that right? - So five, so think about the guy who invented the IEQ9. So he's gonna go crazy deep and narrow on his research. So anyone, and I'm not stereotyping the thing, I think one of the things we say with the Enneagram is, this is not to be weaponized. Like we're not gonna go, we hear an eight, and I'm a seven, that's like a real seven thing to do. - Yeah. - Fives are very focused on the data. And so generally speaking, like people who get a PhD and anthropological studies of like Native American culture, that's probably a five person. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I just remember learning, so Tony Shea, the guy who started Zappos, who is like very intriguing person to me, and he wrote "Delivering Happiness," which was a book that was really impactful for me. He ended up being a client of ours, and then he ended up passing away early, and it was like really sad. So that, just the story of his life and him is something that's impactful for me. And so then when I learned that he is an Enneagram five, I found that to be like so interesting, because he was such an interesting thinker, and there's a couple people on our team who are very interesting thinkers, who are fives. So like that intrigues me. And then another nugget about the Enneagram for me is that when I found out that my husband Rob is a nine, which means he's more of like the passive peacekeeper. - Absolutely. - And I'm an eight, which is considered the active controller, which believe me when I took the test and I got the results and I saw active controller, I was not like, oh yay, that sounds great. I'm so proud to be the active controller. I was like, excuse me. But anyway, so the active controller and the passive one, like that sounds like maybe a good yen in the yen, but also like not, maybe the best couple. And so I definitely had some reservations about like what this would mean for us. But one of the things that Lini and Hart taught us, right when we were learning about the Enneagram, was that, and this is like an example of one of the cool things about Enneagram. So from looking at the details about a nine, and the details about an eight, we were able to explain to me like when an eight and a nine have a conversation, it's common that the eight would leave the conversation and feel like that's the best conversation. We solved everything. That like, oh my gosh, thank you for that talk. I feel so good. We just, yeah, we resolved so many things. And in the same conversation, the nine is gonna leave and feel like they just got beat up. And I was experiencing that with my husband, like where we would have these conversations. And I would be like, oh my God, that was amazing. Thank you for that. And I could tell that he was kind of like after. And so Lini and Hart without even knowing that, were able to talk to my, you know, talk to my husband and I and explain this dynamic with eights and nines. And it was huge. And it's really helped the way that I interact with my husband and the way that I, yeah, and my team. Well, and then once we did the work with my husband and I and then like I said, we expanded and did more Enneagram work with the whole team, then that's been like amazing. In fact, I don't think I even told you this, but I was talking to some of the people on our team recently 'cause we were looking at setting up our gifts for homeowners, for the winter 'cause we always send out like a gift every year and I was asking people on the team if they thought that it would be weird if we gifted the Enneagram to all of our homeowners like for them to take the Enneagram. So in I, for people who are listening, my husband in sort of the tradition of Rachel Rob's started a vacation rental management company. So like we can't get away from it. Yeah. But we have actually talked about using the Enneagram as an onboarding tool for homeowners so that we can relate to them. Totally. I was thinking like, how cool. would it be if we sent out a gift with like a QR code or whatever a link so that people could go online if they wanted to. And take the anyogram and then we would, you know, we could let them like explain to them how this is a tool that we can use to communicate more effectively with them. And so I don't know. I'm still waffling on it because I'm like, our homeowner is going to think we've just like totally lost our mind and we're crazy that we're having them take a personality assessment. But I think you could give it as a, like, a opt-ins. Yeah. Like I think opt-ins is always a great way. I just think it would be so cool. Anyway, so I'm clearly so bought in on the anygram. So those were just, that was just me giving a couple nuggets. I feel like examples of how the anyogram has helped our team. But I don't know if you want to go like a little deeper on some more about any gram that like things that people could use with their own team or maybe even once they learn about themselves, think they could use with their clients or. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because I feel like we've used the anygram for so many things. So we've talked about like, you know, hospitality and the idea of hospitality and connection. Like meeting someone where they're at is like the ultimate form of connection is understanding who and what they are. Totally. But what's really funny is, you know, I came here to Park City yesterday to launch a Boats First Review cycle. Yeah. Just super exciting. Yeah. You know, we've kind of at tandemly helped systematize some of these like light HR functions. Yeah. And made them feel like a boat. Like we're not coming in here and trying to make it feel like a Coca-Cola or IBM. Right. I'm so averse to like corporate style company culture things because I did work with bigger corporations before we started this company. And so I've been fighting reviews. We do want to do. But three years. We've got her though. We but now we finally officially have started a review process, which I think is going to be huge. And our team really wants it. It's just I've always wanted to stay away from like too many standardized anything because I wanted everything to feel and to be like really authentic. And I wanted real relationships, which is what I thought was missing with corporate stuff. But I think with Linnie and Hart's help, like we are able to do a review process. It's going to be really good. And I think using the anyagram to think about this, you know, I mentioned we have thinking, feeling and action styles. Yeah. When there's a manager, the other one of the other things we helped racial and Rob with too was create this org design, this org structure, which because before I mean, I think you and Rob had like 15 or 20 direct reports, which is too many when the organization is really flat. You'll, you know, I think holocryce is an interesting concept. And you can't make decisions. A Tony shea thing. Tony shea thing. And I think into it. Yeah. But Google holocryce for ship. Very cool. A little nugget. But you can't make decisions quickly. And then there's bottlenecks throughout it. So when we do this for once review and for a boat, they have specifically we helped create a director layers. We had like promotions. Really great. Amazing directors here. So proud of them. You got a manager layer in the week that like an I seek, you know, individual contributor layer. We will be able to tell where there's tension on the team. Yeah. Because here's what happens, right? Like you have an issue. People don't quit jobs. They quit managers. And like a boat has amazing retention. Like this is one of the things they're really proud of. And part of it is like the values and the culture and treating employees amazingly. And there's going to be tension when someone's tri-types. So I mentioned, you know, thinking, feeling and action. Yeah. If someone has like a 261 tri-type and they're working with someone who's like a 378, there is going to be tension in that relationship. We can normalize that. Yeah. And also give them tools to work together. Yeah. So it's going to be really interesting as we roll out this review process. Yeah. Looking at the tri-types, looking at the managers. Tony what happens? Yeah. We did a meeting with the team yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday, and we talked about all the reviews and the process. And what we did talk about any Graham too. And like another example for me within our team for the any Graham that's been really helpful is like there's someone, well, there's a few people on the team that are two. But I'm thinking of someone specific. That's a two that he takes on. Like he'll never say no. It's hard for choose to say no. And so he'll just always do more, more, more. And so then he'll get burned out. And I wasn't really understanding before the whole any Graham thing. I wasn't really getting why that was happening. Because it was like, well, he says yes. But then understanding it to more means that like, I don't know, you want to explain the background of a two. Yeah. So consider helper. So say good dynamic therapists. Sorry. I'm going to get Dorky for a second. Your childhood influences your personality. So at age five or six, you're tri-typing your type is formed. And so for a two, they lived in a house where it was rewarded to be helpful. So they've saw their own self-value in their family and serving other people. And so for two, the, you know, their parents might have been other types. So they kind of came in. They were saying yes, they made people feel really good about themselves. And so for two, it's really hard for them to say no because they feel like their self-worth is in their service to others. Okay. Right. So like learning all of that and sort of absorbing it and understanding it made me realize, okay, for this guy that we have on the team, that's so diligent and such a hard worker. But because he's a two, we can't just keep going to him just because he says yes. Like we have to, we have to moderate what a level of work that we're going to give to him because he'll never stop. Like he's going to always say yes. But then he'll burn out. And that'll be negative. And so in order to help protect him from the burnout, we need to really be careful on what we hand over to him and see that any gram was like for me, what allowed me to understand that. And I knew all these like surrounding things about how he never said no, but he would get burned out. But I couldn't figure out like what to do next. And it was the information from me, any gram that was like, oh, that was that moment where it all like, you know, crystallized. And I knew like, okay, so the next thing that we need to do is like talk to the team, communicate about, you know, really taking accounting of what we're handing over to our two's and making sure we're helping them to not take on too much. Well, and empowering. It's funny. I know exactly you're talking about. I talked to him for an hour yesterday. The other couple of the things that we do with the boat is we'll do a reputation audit for leaders that are kind of progressing through the company because your reputation isn't necessarily who you are, but it's how you're known. Yeah. Which you can actually. It's so helpful. So like, you know, a lot of people don't know their impact. And so gathering that data. Yeah. So it's talking to him about a repot and I'm running right now. And we talked a long time about boundaries. And so what's so cool about him knowing he's a two. He's like, now going, yeah, I have to say no. Like I can't, like I just talked to him this morning. He's like, I'm not going to go to Millab this weekend because I have to go to Sun Valley. Yeah. On Monday next week to go with Regional Rob and like, I need to rest. Yeah. And so like that for me, and we have these lines, there's so much in the end of your gram, but for two to go to their eight. Yeah. Which is the line for the two. That's a no. Yeah. And so when healthy, two's look like the, you know, the healthy versions of the eight. Yeah. Yeah. So very cool. And I know that like we're kind of getting on the numbers and it's like confusing. But I think, I don't know, I am like now in the religion of any gram, for sure, which I'd not actually religion. Okay. But like I've been kind of making it one because it's like, I'm just so bought into it. And it's funny because I was so anti personality test. Like my whole life, I have been like, I hate when people are like, I'm an I N J seven or whatever it is. I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Or like, the one where like culture index, yes, I know a lot of people, especially in our industry love culture index and predictive index for hiring. Yeah. And even those, I'm not going to hate on them too much. But like, you know, it'll be like, you're a maverick or whatever. And I'm like, like me and like a bunch of other people and like, what? I don't know why it matter. What does that mean? So that's the issue. So heart and air, we're certified in like seven or eight, like Myers-Briggs, Hogan. I'm with hair. I think I've run a couple of hair trends with you guys. That's behavioral. These are all really good. But what I love about the anagram is it's both shut like shallow. Like you can quickly understand what an image is. But it also is really deep. Yeah. We have try types. We have integration. We have wings. We have lines. So, you know, not necessarily good for hiring. We wouldn't recommend it for hiring. Yeah. I know a lot of people in the industry use predictive index for hiring. Yes. Which I think could be effective. We don't do any of your ember before we hire someone. Like, this is something we do after. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's now illegal. Is it to do person? Like, there was there was a time where you could I think I remember interviewing. Yeah. That's with personality tests before. And now I can't do it because it's a pop. Okay. In HR. No, no. But I do think that any gram has been so so helpful. And like I'm not trying to form a cult or get a bunch of people to join my religion. But I am saying you should think about the anyagram for your team if you haven't or for yourself at least. And like obviously I'm not just saying like, you know, everyone has to call linear, although you should. But I just feel like I don't I feel like it's also kind of a trend in our industry right now because I am hearing more and more people, not just us, but like other people from other companies or other vendors are like on podcasts and things like that talking about the anyagram more and more. And so to me, it's like now is the best time to jump on the bandwagon. But, you know, that's just me. So yeah, okay. We've talked about anyagram. We've talked about company culture. Are there any other nugget? Because that is like our thing on the podcast is trying to offer like what we call the nuggets and secrets of like just some good details of like things that people can do. And when it comes to tandemly, it would be probably like company culture type stuff. Like real tactical things that people can take from our episodes and like actually use that minute. And maybe not even have to think about it too hard. But just so obviously one is the anyagram. Yeah, absolutely. And I think another is like really taking time with your company values, which I think that's a really hard thing to get into if you're not normalized to it. Yeah, the values are funny because, you know, you don't necessarily have to hire us. Although we love, you know, meeting new people, but you're probably going to have to hire somebody externally. Totally. Because the values are so close to you, you actually can't tease them out. Yeah. So think about that. Another nugget I would say is get in the culture of feedback. So whether it's, you know, we're doing engagement surveys with a boat twice a year. Run your own engagement survey, right? Yeah. Get some time, put it in a Google form. If you're cost conscious, there's a great software out there. What's the one we use? We use 55. We really like 155. It's a performance management software. Latest is great too. OK. It just depends on what you want to invest in. But take a moment and really get to know what's going on for your people. Yeah. The only issue is if you're running that, you might need to do that externally too, because when you run engagement surveys internally, people aren't honest, right? Like they know if somebody internally is good to see it. Yeah. But there's ways in which you can do it. Yeah. I also think like this idea that we're a feedback rich culture is really key. Yeah. So let's have hard conversations. Then our Brunei Brown going for small businesses, because I think with my husband and I, and we started with just a couple of employees, but then everyone's reporting to us, like Lenny was saying earlier. And that does create, as we grew, up to 10 people, 15 people, 20, 30, it does create like a hard situation for people to give you good feedback because they know that like, this is our company, this is our life, this is our baby. So of course, they're not going to want to say anything negative, but we kind of want to hear something negative, even when it's difficult. And I do think when Lenny and Hart came in, and they first, that's one of the first things we started on. Yeah, we did some trainings. We did the engagement survey. And we did the engagement surveys. And they ran the engagement survey. So it was coming from them. And we got really good feedback, like good and bad, but we got a lot of solid feedback that was helpful. And even from that first engagement survey, all the way to now, we've kind of, we've been, like 11, yeah, we've generally, yeah. We were just talking with the team yesterday about this. And I was asking them, like, hey, do you guys feel like we've taken your feedback and done something with it? And they all say yes. Like so, and I was like, no, don't tell me, yes, if you don't mean it, like for real. That's the nugget I will say. Yeah. You ask people for feedback, you better be actionable with it. Like don't ask someone for feedback and do nothing. Yeah, even if it's one small thing, you better do everything that everyone says we don't act on all of it. But we do try to look at number one, the trends, like what, like one time I remember, because this was more recently, the trend was like people wanted more PTO, right? They wanted more pay time off. And so then we were like, we feel like we're giving a ton of PTO, but okay, this is what everyone wants. So let's like look at what our situation is and how can we offer more PTO. And so I think that that was really helpful. And I think we also do take sometimes like one person will have a comment and we will take that comment and then do something about it. Absolutely. And we can't do it for every single one off comment, but we tried to like, whenever the salary comment we had maybe a couple years ago. And so then we created salary bands. And like not like the formal Ikea like, yeah, I see four and you can only accept like no, we're not doing that. But we're, we also created a process for people to kind of advocate for what they are like made. Within our operations department, we had found that people wanted more clarity of like the layers, like the different levels and operations department. So we like worked on something like that. And even though I am averse to those concepts, you're doing so good. You're leaving it to all of them. We've done like because people have asked for it. I mean, really reviews. Yeah, the reviews are I think you're big, big one that you've always wanted reviews. But I've always been so anti because I did work for Coca-Cola. I worked for an agency, a marketing agency of McDonald's. I worked in these corporate environments. We had reviews, we had salary bands, we had the star method or whatever. And I hated it so much. And I found it like not effective, not helpful and just very annoying and stressful. So I've always wanted to avoid that. But I feel like the way that Lini and Hart that you guys have helped us to create those kind of processes. It's still like in the abode vibe. But it's getting people on our team that have an app like they're saying I want reviews. So it's like, who am I to say we don't want to do that? That's what people want. We should be doing it. And now we are. One of our core values is that it's actually flexible flow. So whether we're working with you guys family office or pet company in San Francisco, we're going to match what that company means. So what I think is so cool about you all is you really know who you are. I think. And I hope we do. That's the one that you think. And it's been really easy for us to kind of come in and help amplify that. Because we want you to be you. We don't want you to like we're never going to turn you into a cook. Right. Because that's just not who we are. Yeah. Where you are. Well, and I think as we excavated our company values and that's really helped us so that we now, it's like we can feel it. Like, but not just me and Rob too. It's like everyone on the team now. It's like you can feel like, okay, is this idea? Does this go along with like our values? Our abodean way. Is this decision making? Yeah. Or does it not? You know, and we can sort of sense it now that like, oh, so that when linear heart have come to us and been like, we need a review process. Here's how we think you should do it. And it's set up in a way that works with our values and our culture. Like, it's like, oh, all of a sudden, I can be like, yeah, oh, yeah, we can totally do that. That will be fine. And so yeah, hopefully we're going to do this review process in the next few weeks. And hopefully the team likes it. But in a boat fashion with our resilience. That's one of our company values. I feel like if it doesn't go well, we can always tweak it. Absolutely. So yeah, that's what we say with these processes. It's like, don't turn the baby out with the bath water. But like, if you get some momentum with something, double down on it. So like any gram, we've had like a tons of trainings from that. Yeah, whether it's years, years, years, and like, it's been fun for us. It's been creative for us because we're like, okay, so what is above need? All right, how do we like use adult learning theory to design the thing that they need? Yeah. So I think, you know, over this time, it's just been so fun to work together. No, it's been awesome. Yeah. So I feel like we covered a lot of good stuff. Okay. So like, just to recap slightly, some of our nuggets, we talked about any gram, how really, I mean, everyone should take the any gram, the good version, not the cheap one online, or maybe there's one online, but not the cheap one online. Okay. Yeah. So you need a good one because like the any gram test that linear heart do, it like sort of changes as you take it. So it's like, re-testing. It's adaptive. Yeah, adaptive. So I feel like that makes a big difference. Okay. But so any gram, like any gram, at least for yourself, if not for you and your partner or your spouse. And then once you feel and you understand how helpful it is, like, re-testing. If you can't, this is a good thing. And I don't know what were some other nuggets here. Like, the idea of company values and like excavating, which this is like the excavating of the values is a linear heart phrase that I am obsessed with. I love it. Once I thought about the idea of like how we had excavated our values, maybe it's because I love fossils and digging for fossils. But like that really helped explain to me how that worked more than I even understood it while we were doing it. So I think, yeah, any gram for you, for your people and your closest to you and your life and your team, excavating company values, like in a really nice, thoughtful way, and not just necessarily sitting down and writing what you think your company values are, but working with your team and probably with professional to come up with that. And then I do think like Lenny said, like another nugget is that feedback thing. And really understanding that like, if you're going to take your company and your team from just being a company and a team to having a company culture and having values and being able to have something to make decisions off of every day when, you know, having one of these. When things get hard, if a million decisions like all day, and how do we make them? Well, it's like, do we take this homeowner? Right. Like, like, do we take this homeowner? Do we hire this person? Yeah. Deep, deep roots grow as a way of your values. And like when people act, I mean, for my husband's company, we just fired husband-wife. It is the whole thing because they were treating our employees poorly. Yeah. Like they were accusing them. Right. Like, and we're like, we haven't even awkwarded you. Right. And you're already accusing us of like, I'm jing out your hot tub. Right. This is not going to be a good long-term, you know, equitable connection. And it like goes against your values. And it goes against your values of who we are. And I think we can, we are able as like business owners and people to sense that someone's going against our values before we even know what our values are. But I think it's so much more arbitrary and you're kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall. When you take the time to work with a professional and excavate those company values and really know that you have the right ones, then it's like so much more clear. You're not just like hoping that it feels right, which I do think that as humans, a lot of us, if we're in tune with ourselves, we can know sometimes when things feel right or wrong. But it's not as, you can't do it as confidently or as easily or as efficiently as after you have worked on your values, written them down known that like these are correct. So I think that's huge. And then the feedback piece, right? Just stay open and secure. Yes, because I think one thing I'd love about listeners to take away from is we are all wired very differently. We've all had very different childhoods. Yeah. So thinking, feeling and acting, we approach the world very differently as humans. And so the more we can give grace and space for somebody else to go out in the world in the way that in the way that they find authentic, we can also do the same thing. And we can all co-exist. It's okay. Which to me is what you learn in therapy. Which is, I mean, like, I am so obsessed with therapy. And if you know me, you know this. And if you ever met me in person, I probably talked to you about therapy because I love therapy. And we pay for therapy for our team. And that's just such an important part of what our company culture is. And to me, it's like that's the kind of thing that you get from leading a life where you go to therapy or maybe you work with your religious leaders. Or you do whatever to have introspective thinking in terms of for yourself and for how you interact with other people. That's when you can really realize like how important these relationships are and how, you know, all of the, everyone's individual things that they have going on in their own life and how that affects them. And it makes living life on this planet. But especially in the industry of vacation rentals. Way easier when you can understand that stuff. Because I always say the vacation rental industry and working as a property manager, it's like a study in human psychology. Oh, absolutely. Right? It holds up a mirror to who you are. Yeah. And it's also like really, it can be really rough. on a person to stay sane when you're dealing with so many different personality types and all the things that are driving people behind the scenes that you don't really have anything to do with, but it's affecting your daily life. So I think the more coaching that we've brought into our team, the more consultants, the more therapy, the more great books, the more that we're supporting our team to be able to deal with the pressures of this industry. Yeah. Because you have to be whole yourself first before you give back to others. Yeah, so much in says that, but like it's true. But that is how I think the nugget, and this is like this is the how to make yourself. Yeah. Well, because if you're unwell or you're not operating at full capacity, right, this industry will wreck you. Yeah, no, for sure. Okay. That was the main nugget. All right. So I think we're good. I'm not sure how long we've gone in this episode, but I think it's probably it's probably good enough you guys. So so thanks if anyone ever listens to this, we hope you do. And we hope you got something out of it. And we hope you come back for the next episode. And if you want to reach out to Lenny with tandemly, what will be the best way for someone to do that? Yeah, email [email protected] or just check out our website, tandemly.com. Cool. And otherwise, I think we're going to stop it here. We'll see everyone next time. And thanks for coming.