Sophie Cunningham’s Comments, WNBA Culture, and More With E.R. Fightmaster

Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I am Sirit Sohi, as always. Before we get into today's episode, which will feature the great ER Fightmaster, I wanted to address a column that I wrote yesterday called, The Best Way for the WNBA to Solve Its Sophie Cunningham Problem Was to Ignore It. It was about the anti-trans rally at the Seattle Storm game and how nobody from the WNBA, the Fever, or the Storm made a strong statement about it and how that might have actually helped the WNBA diffuse the situation. Now in the light of less than 48 hours later, you've got J.K. Rowling, who is the patron saint of using the issue of transgender women in sports to bully the trans community writ large. She's chiming in. She's being invited by anti-trans protesters to the Sky vs. Fever game, which it looks like they will be playing in the next episode of the WNBA Ringer WNBA WNBA Show. I can't wait to see what it's going to be like and what it's going to be like in the future. I can't wait to see what it's going to be like. I can't wait to see what it's going to be like in the future. account like the context of what's going on in this country right now um but the piece was also interpreted as me telling trans people to be quiet about transphobia um which so far from what my intention was um if like and i i completely get where they got to that frankly like the fact that i didn't see that is something that like i'm just like how how did i not like if you have been watching you know every every major institution including the ones that trans people rely on for safety and community and protection like abandon you um that's obviously going to be your read um or could be your read and like that is hurtful um and that that is my mistake um like i can talk about what i meant to say versus what people took away from it but it's my job to communicate that like that is literally my job so that's just something i i had to be better about um i also like i think we talk a lot about how the wnba is a safe space for trans people um but i think one thing that we don't talk about a lot is how like the wnba also needs its trans fans like and we're going to get into that in the conversation but i just want to say that like the trans community is really important to the trans community and i think it's really important to the wnba and its larger community and just important period like just important period and and i'm i'm very sorry to to any any trans person that i made feel like it was okay to just discard them um and honestly i'm not gonna lie like i just feel a little dumb to be honest because like everything that has is happening right now is like connected to things that i've written about in the past or like or i've thought about or talked about on the podcast like i've written about the way that the reason that the conservative project is obsessed with the wnba is because the league in women's sports and like you know the wnba being the most powerful league in women's sports right now is a repudiation of every justification for their bigotry it's a repudiation for what they want to define womanhood to be which is what this movement has been concerned about from its inception like this has always been those two things have always been deeply tied even like earlier this weekend on the podcast or this week rather i talked about how the conservative project is is using trans women as a trojan horse to redefine and limit the scope of womanhood and the empowerment of women we're actively seeing that happen right now and i the fact that i like i couldn't connect those things to what i was watching happen in seattle is something that like i'm still searching for the answer to why that was the case like i feel like honestly like that trojan horse walked by me and i didn't realize it and i truly like i it's something that i'm genuinely just like continuing to grapple with um i also think i gave sophie cunningham too much credit for not engaging with the protesters at the game that has also um since changed like she's you know tweeted at them talked about like you know kind of like a will be in touch soon sort of situation um and i think that like i kind of like i've seen that sort of playbook before of like people who cause harm trying to distance themselves from the harm that they are causing um and i gave her i think a playbook to continue to do that and that was obviously wrong um so yeah i apologize and um i also like you know i think like every time like someone has to like apologize for something now like i think that there's almost like this like sort of thing of like oh like even like like had to do it sort of thing right like or that like i got like forced to do it and i didn't get forced to do it like online yes like there are obviously people that are upset at me but like i am genuinely like a pretty stubborn person like i wouldn't apologize if i didn't feel like i messed up and i messed up and i was rightfully called out and um i messed up in ways that are like discordant with the person that i want to be and like what i want to put out into the world and that's why i'm apologizing so i just like i just want to get that like out of the way in a way and you know honestly maybe part of this like how i even got to this place is maybe i am too like anticipatory in my reaction to what i think people will say about things um and instead i should and the wnba everybody involved should just be thinking more in terms of what they actually believe to be right um but yeah um i just wanted to leave it at that like we're gonna have this conversation with with er and if you know er fight master you already know that they bring a sense of levity and perspective to every conversation that they're in um if you don't know them i feel like you simply just have to experience them um i also i guess i you know i imagine people will be wondering um i've been working with er and their people to get them on the show for a while like a little over a month now this happened to be the day that they were scheduled for um i've been thinking about these topics and how they'd be a great person to like speak to a lot of this stuff happening around the league um with its 30th anniversary and like the mainstream lens being applied to it um about applied to a league that's been built by people who exist on the margins um and to kind of like the modern wnba's role in political activism and just a bunch of like there's just a lot of things that are happening this week that i thought that er would be a really great person to to speak to about um and i really hope that you enjoy this conversation this episode is brought to you by the home depot the home depot has everything you need to launch your holiday season in style upgrade your yard with this year's hottest holiday decor including the show stopping towering santa oh i like that one and his impressive reindeer both 8.5 feet and both designed with incredible detail that stands out day or night when you want decor that delivers impact the home depot has it make your home santa's favorite stop with the holiday decor you want all waiting for you at the home depot this episode is brought to you by nas energy introducing new nas energy grand prix guava for those that want to be fueled up and fired up with a hundred mile an hour tropical tasting power ignite your taste start your engine shift your flavor to high gear with new nas energy grand prix guava hit the street grab a can and get after it all right we are back i'm so excited because we are joined by your fight master uh they do a little bit of everything honestly like you're an actor uh you played dr kia bartley kai bartley kai bartley that's my bad on gray's anatomy you were fran and sorry baby maybe i haven't yet to see but i really don't want to say it see it okay and that's what we're talking about today yeah because when you're gonna find the time to watch it exactly yeah we're gonna talk about scheduling exactly no i love talking about scheduling me it's one of my favorite things um i also listened to your album the other day oh thanks i did not know that you were a musician as well because i know you from being just the best guest on every podcast that i listen to and also your own podcast jocular thank you thank you well are you i think i told you this when we first got here but you were playing in my house today as i moved around and i was listening to you have a quite serious conversation about the wmba and some recent events and so i just want you to know that i've never seen my cat sleep harder than when listening to your voice is that a compliment yes is that yes if you if you can be around if you can make a cat calm down because this was not one of my well-behaved cats this is one of my like psychotic little like velociraptor cats and you're out in the background i'm walking around i'm like putting step away i'm listening to your arguments like this this is really i really like this well-informed great great argument and then i looked over and the cat was so like relaxed that i thought it was broken you know what i mean like its mouth was open yeah like its bones were actually just yes yeah i get it so thank you gone limp yeah oh my gosh well i can always cat you know i love i love calming a cat i can always cat i can always cat i can always cat i have known for that i love i love to calm the cat down if we have to redo the intro and it's just me explaining that you are the person that cats for me that is an honor that is an honor um we won't redo this intro i think i think we're just gonna roll with that um okay so i've been playing at your place you've been playing at my place i think that your album it feels like it feels like swimming honestly it's like swimming through a heartbreak that's nice yeah i uh i think that the swimming sensation are the worst i use for that when i'm trying to describe that is like uh there is this like running warmth that goes through the album of where i do think all the pieces are connected and i think because i like storytelling so much i put the songs in a specific order so that if you listen to it in order you do have this like you are moving through one large story and these like kind of tidal waves of different emotions so i appreciate the swimming metaphor yeah like okay that that actually makes a ton of sense like your your storytelling isn't necessarily as didactic as you're doing it but i you know this is what happened this is what how you're kind of like no through an emotional well and i know there it's funny because it is you're you're kind of pretending it's all one story but it's like everything that you learn ends up it's throughout a whole lifetime of loving people will make it onto an album and so yeah you the audience has a feeling of listening to one long story about one person but you know you as the artist know that you're actually just building like these building blocks of understanding uh coming to different understandings over like decades of being a lover or a partner or a friend or whatever yeah wow wow anyway i hope you liked it i didn't know i loved it i loved it honestly i haven't had a chance to listen to it a lot uh get back in there i will i need the streams because you know every time you listen i make point oh oh oh oh my gosh oh oh three cents and so yeah okay cool and then you can just like buy me a beer yeah yeah i'll just stream it over and over again after a million streams you know what i'm gonna uh where's my phone just a little bit i should stream i'll stream it on silent on spotify as this goes and also it becomes like a secondary incentive for you to spend as much time here as you as i can possibly get you to do yeah yeah it's called tolerance by the way for anybody who hasn't heard it yet um so listeners of this podcast will probably know you from jocular the queer women's sports podcast that you host with katie kershaw and tian tran um you guys get into so many of the things that i find fascinating about the wnba but that i don't have an opportunity to get into every single day um whether it's and you guys do it in a really funny way you guys do in a really funny way it's not like academic i feel like you guys are really smart people who are really funny but you're also ultimately just fans of the game you just have a way of analyzing it that is both like sociological and also just like grounded and i appreciate that yeah i i think our you know katie and tian and i when we i'll speak for them but they they can you know they're not here so mind you it's mostly my opinion and at this moment but i think when we set out to start the podcast we were trying to reach a very specific audience and this the audience we were trying to reach was people who felt nervous about entering the sports space so we're not trying to get former athletes that understand the game we're not trying to get people that are in an adult league we're not trying to it's awesome when you get those people but that's not how we're setting out to we're not trying to get people that are interested in statistics we're not doing that yeah we're going to people as as you know in like 2022 where like women's sports are really having this boon and we're saying hey if you want a bandwagon the wagon is so big come with us we're gonna explain it like everybody in the room is a baby and like i i think that the what i'm saying is that we're not trying to get people that are interested in statistics we're not what i appreciate about your assessment is that actually i think that katie chan and i do know quite a bit about what we're talking about but it felt really imperative for us to play the clowns well you're comedians though we're the we're comedians and and i think that we did not ever want to present ourselves as experts to our audience because we thought that that might push people away we wanted to kind of go like hey we know maybe just a tiny bit more than you do and so there's no barrier to knowledge here like come sit with us we're all going to figure it out together and so i think we did a good job with that you did a great job with that thanks yeah thank you yeah where i was listening to when i was listening to yours today i was like and you were referencing fair play and you're there were so many like really beautifully thought out arguments and i could hear that yours is you're talking to a much more i think informed audience like i think that i think starting the the jocular kids that started that started with us i think like your pod is the next step after a season with us where it's like if if you're not into sports immediately like we're gonna be like here's the baby speak for all this stuff yeah and we're learning too like i had to fucking learn so many rugby rules because everybody kept being like we need rugby episodes and i'm like i don't understand man i don't know what's happening in this game i need a jocular podcast for rugby it's so hard but then i think the the nice thing is we've been like with the our fans for over a hundred episodes now and i can feel their questions are getting smarter their knowledge is getting bigger they are the people that are now in the adult leagues yeah they are like the experts that are going to the game and jocular is wrapping up we're ending and i i'm gonna send all the kids who are not already here i'm sending your way oh my gosh thank you so i appreciate that um i can i think i'm gonna process the jocular heartbreak while listening to tolerance yes yes just make make jocular like the woman you're yeah yes yeah she can be a stand-in totally yeah i'm finally out of like the longing period of my life so i think i need something new to long for and you guys can stand in for that thank you beautiful yeah if you lose longing you lose a part of queer self so exactly you do like that's that's a part of like i didn't come out for a long time i didn't come out until like i was 24 so a lot a big part of my life was actually defined by this longing that i didn't understand yeah yeah and now i have this gaping hole uh-huh where a gaping hole once existed you're welcome when did you know when did you like find out i probably knew when i was like eight or something and then i was like no just kidding yeah and i did that for a very very long time that's so funny really well and that i think that that i hear people say similar shit where it's like right around that like eight to ten period you're kind of like pre-pubescent and you're like running around with the boys and you're having this experience of having like almost like a genderlessness that is like inherent to like little queer kids yeah and then you're like forced to go to middle school which is purgatory and then you're like forced to go to middle school which is purgatory and then you're forced to go to middle school which is purgatory and then you're like forced to go to middle school like that's what dante's writing about exactly yeah eighth grade yeah it's eighth grade one of the worst experiences a human being can have and you're like well how am i going to survive this i guess i'm gonna wear weird heels to winter formal oh my gosh and then suddenly you become so distanced from yourself that you're really lucky if you make it out of there by like 18 being like i am gay because yeah you've just been trying to hide yourself for safety's sake for years yeah you can't even recognize yourself no point no i look back at photos from that time and i am like you poor motherfucker oh man what was your story i i i have like a i just went home and looked through a bunch of photos and it's interesting because like right up until kind of that like 10 period i'm only in boys clothes right and when i am in girls clothes it's silly because i've got a short haircut or it's like it looks i'm so swagged out but like a big bow here and you're like surely not appropriate and then you can see were you like girls like bows i think my parents were like that's a cute shirt with a bow on it yeah and they were really letting me kind of do like i'm in as much boy clothing as i am in girl clothing in these photos but the ones with the bows it's sweet and comical and then i can see in the photos when i'm like okay and now it's like eighth grade time where you're starting to get those weird little boobs that i'm like okay i guess i'll wear cap sleeves yeah and that is i think i spent a few years like that and then i met my first girlfriend when i was like 14 15 oh okay and thank god for that because it just helped like i i didn't really understand that i was gay even though we were dating and having sex sure it's like the cognitive dissonance at that age and i was growing up in ohio so we didn't you know i'm not seeing anybody looks like not seeing any queer relationships and so i'm like i don't know what something about us is really but it also is wrong and we shouldn't tell anyone so i had all that but then when i got to college i was like oh i saw gay people right and like that makes sense it is it is standing right in front of you the whole time yeah like i look back at it and like even after i came out to everyone that i love they were like this makes perfect sense and none of us saw it yeah i i it's it's annoying no matter what they say it's annoying you know when people are like we knew it all along or they're like what yeah and both things have pissed me off before i'm like if you knew it all along you i wish you would have taken me aside and been like or taking me yeah why don't you rip me out of the closet why wouldn't you just show me an ellen degeneres stand-up set because that's when i was growing up that is actually the first like gay person on tv i saw really see i think i think ellen put me back in the closet because i thought she i thought she was cringe i was like i was waiting for the the queer representation that wasn't cringe there was not any representation that wasn't cringe while i was growing up no no i think i saw ellen and i was like that can't possibly we do cringe better than any subset of people on the planet really do but the nice thing is i think we do know it i think we know it i mean i think isn't that what the rainbow is all about yes a lot of ways yes yes yeah colors i would never wear no absolutely have you seen the fucking non-binary flag yeah look it up it is the most hideous flag i have ever seen and whoever did that a lot of trouble with me that's transphobic the trans flags gorgeous the non-binary trans flag and also why color combination why are the trans like in the non-binary like so disparate like what's going on here that's so true they should be in conversation with each other exactly should we read we need to redo the flags the lesbian flag is closer to who yeah who's what's the last one you probably have a line to somebody i feel like i feel like you're you're higher up the the queer power hierarchy like anybody i know you know okay i'm gonna i'll figure it out yeah but what is the lesbian we don't really have it up yeah i have all of them right now this is the last one i have all of them right now this is the last one i have all of them like this is the lakers uniform uh i which i've never liked are you sparksman i am a sparksman and i don't wear any of the merch because i don't like the colors and the and the the sparks were like we're you know we're gonna do i guess the purple and the yellow but then we're gonna add teal why does it make any sense why it doesn't make any sense i think if i had if i could do one thing for the league i would really really really like to go in there with nobody who's currently working with the jerseys nobody no and i'm talking you know i'm talking about the jerseys nobody and i'm talking you know i'm talking about the jerseys nobody and i'm talking about the jerseys and i'm talking you nike get it you decide any of the big ones out of here i want to work with some small fashion house to redo all of the jerseys all the logos i want to start from scratch and i want to i want to give us access to better looking merch yeah well this is what valkyries have done yeah and the tempo as well yes yes and i i mean i think if you if you make better merch better merch you make better fans like i'm a i'm a you make better fans like i'm a i'm a sparks fan but you're not gonna catch me in the hat yeah ain't gonna catch me in that hat need better startorial choices for queers who are not cringe absolutely yeah and then we can leave the throwback jerseys which to like all the like horrific ones our cringe brothers and sisters and whoever else can enjoy those yeah well i actually i'm not gonna on some level i do i disagree with you on some level because my take on jerseys mascots team names has always been the only focus group that matters are seven-year-olds tell me everything well that's what that's what it's essentially for and it also allows you to expand the scope of what you can do like i think part of like some some of the merch that i like is more in the vein of like a minimalist um thing that you can you know slap on everything yes which is what we're doing now and i have some issues with that but i get it because i i fall into that like i would love like a burgundy wine tempo jacket you know yeah yeah yes at the same time sports are meant to be silly at the same like you know like no they're meant to be cool they're meant to be cool they're meant to be cool they're culture creators and i think the the to dive into men's for a split second i think the men men do understand that better and and part of it is this like capitalist understanding of like they can sell jerseys they can sell merch very easily for like this massive population of male sports fans and so they spend a lot of time thinking about their jerseys and doing throwback jerseys and switching up the jerseys per season yeah there's a lot more thought but at the same time does that work and does that sell because men in general care less about whether they wear jerseys or not they care less about whether they wear something cringe uh i think especially a male sports fan men like to they might not even know it's cringe they they men want to feel like they're part of a franchise and so actually uh the sports teams themselves are designing men's aesthetics for them yeah and i think with like queer fans of the wba i think we actually have an aesthetic sense as all queer people do in some sense because we had to design it for ourselves it was not given to us and so as like aesthetically the the last thing that i really liked was the all-star zip-ups yeah oh i love that i liked that but that was classic there was like almost like a 1980s like the era of like the supersonics jerseys like the kind of what's the star do you remember the the brand oh the star oh uh uh you know what i'm talking about yeah like super classic fits that like like they you don't have to be a fan of the game to have wanted all that gear that's kind of what i want i want you to be able to buy wmba gear without even knowing who the team is because it looks so good right yeah it's helpful for us i'm with you okay this actually gets into something i wanted to talk to you about which is like the difference between your general like male sports fan watching men's sports and the way that fans interface with women's sports and women's basketball or at large like the wnba is very interesting right now because it is sort of it is this window that the mainstream sports world has gotten into a league that is defined by queer culture okay so what's the difference between fans of men's sports and fans of women's sports or just i mean i i guess more more so i think i think maybe we know those uh-huh the answer to that but just more so like what if what have you made of the mainstream lens being on women's sports that's an interesting question so i'll i'm gonna make it microscopic for a second i'm gonna self center this so with uh i have found it really hard to be a super fan of one team in the league and that's not because i'm not a fan of the teams or their players but it's actually because the reason i'm such a big fan of the team is because i'm a big fan of the team and i'm a big fan of the wmba is because i'm watching a lot of the best athletes on earth that are also women and queer people that i respect out on the court doing an awesome job and so as a fan i'm recognizing that my my fan experience is actually getting to be in an environment where black women and queer people and working mothers are being valued and paid what they're worth and they are out there doing the best job possible for male sports i don't give a crap about those guys there's just they're fine yeah they're doing fine and so like for example i was like a big fan of specifically cleveland growing up because lebron was coming up i'm an ohio kid and i knew he was doing a lot for akron so i was like picking this guy who i was like you are doing a good leadership job i'm gonna throw all my weight behind loving this team but i don't really care care about the league wmba i care about the whole league men's sports i care about a team yeah and i think that that's actually true for male sports fans too like when you even when they're pointing their anger in a direction male sports fans like one team they like stake their existence on one team and when they direct their hatred towards the women's game it's for the whole league yeah that's so true it's not like you know how people hate the yankees because they're like so good yeah they're men just like hate the wmba and i was looking i was looking for like yeah like before this i was like going through and i was playing some like highlights i wanted to watch uh dominating milonga's dunk again yeah and i it was so hard to find a video of the dunk which was just the lone dunk right yes which was not uploaded by a man being like oh big dunk and then they're showing the dunk which is like effortless and so cool yeah and then all the comments underneath are like men are being like this is the dunk in question espn really playing a joke on us with this one i'm like what is your fucking deal yeah because these are the same motherfuckers that were like i'm never gonna watch the women's game because they can't dunk yeah it's not physical enough right and then they dunk and they're like i don't like that either it's just like a massive moving target for hating the whole existence of the league yeah i think a lot of attention is paid to how uh is like the negative press that the league gets from sexist men but those it doesn't matter those men aren't buying tickets they're never going to come to the games it doesn't matter how good we are it doesn't matter how cool the jerseys are it doesn't matter who are stars are those men are never going to join us so i'd rather shift our attention to us like it's almost like that queer conversation of keeping queer infighting in-house like let's solve this together like the conversation that we're having about trans women in sports right now i'm like no let's keep this let's keep this conversation in the hands of the people that actually like the women's game because we've watched it sneak out of the women's game yeah and now male sports fans who hate the wmba are weighing in on how these players need to be protected from biological males huge parentheses excuse me quotations there so i don't know if i answered your question at all but no absolutely yeah for sure i mean i think it's what you brought up about who each fan hates and where they choose to levy their hate is very interesting because in the wnba i do feel like the fans are very much like the women's game and i think it's very interesting because very much invested in the growth of the league itself totally so the person that they hate most collectively is probably kathy engelbert yeah more than more than anybody else like the the the the ire falls way more on the actual institution itself and the way that it's holding back the wnba that's an excellent point because even the sophie cunningham thing and no no jabs to be the way that it's holding back the wnba that's an excellent point because even the sophie cunningham thing and no no jabs to be like embarrassing herself like but i think sophie i'm watching sophie become an icon outside of the league right she's making this transfer over she's like shows up at i think at an mma fight and there's a reason that she's making the the shift and she's making it so easily she's disavowing trans women yeah which is actually disavowing all women really because obviously the trans debate because she's disavowing trans women yeah which is actually disavowing trans women yeah which is actually disavowing trans women yeah right that's being the pick me up yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely it's also i mean it's this she's become a trojan horse as well and that's ultimately the goal right like having a say over who defines who gets to be a woman is something that the modern conservative project is wildly interested in it has been a huge part of their project forever like it's it's just it's so deeply intertwined in conservatism because it's so deeply intertwined in conservatism because conservatism doesn't work in a world in which women are empowered it just doesn't it is it is completely like that and that's just that's just how i feel it's completely antithetical no i think you're right and and the argument towards this type of like uh who's woman enough this type of like biological testing really gains its foothold with the nazis like there's this book the other olympians it's if you haven't read it you're gonna love it and they trace the like the first origins of these conversations like real actual like the ioc making rules and and banning these and banning trans players and stuff like that the it happens when the germans host the olympics really when the nazi party hosts the olympics and the americans because you know we're we're closely related to our german brothers the americans are like wait i love that yeah they're like you kind of ate i love that this episode is brought to you by nas energy every ounce of dirt sweat and gears every checkered flag and trophy raised every lap every race every hard-fought place they're all jammed inside every can of nas energy high performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower for the streets go ahead crack open a can of nas energy and get after it before this there's this as you celebrate the game take a deeper look at its roots the people grow in the grass paving the lots welding the goalposts inspecting every football the hard-working people that make every sunday possible carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game visit carhartt.com join the trades to learn more vanduul is now available everywhere in the u.s so you can get in on the sports action no matter where you are including these places make this your most rewarding season ever with vanduul age and location restrictions apply product availability varies by market see vanduul.com for eligibility gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER and we take it on so i want to explain when people are like this and i there's so much rhetoric about this stuff right now i understand how you could have absorbed a bunch of negative rhetoric about wanting to protect real quote women you know or wanting to save girls wanting to protect the sport i understand how you could have heard all this and it really have informed your being but i do want to remind people that the way you got there was through fascism the way you got to that thought yeah was fascist yeah so maybe just consider that yeah absolutely absolutely yeah we need more yeah wow i need to read that book it's really delightful and you know it's it's like it the the part that is really nice about it is because you can feel and like the modern day you can feel this this like fascist tendency and like actually like gender politics are such a massive part of like the fascist machine but it's so nice to have it so beautifully written out and so many stories about trans athletes and uh first person uh reporting from the time and uh news entries so this is not it's no longer this theoretical like oh it's fascist no no no in the book it's like beautifully laid out i can't recommend it more yeah the other olympians yeah absolutely i will definitely check that out um we'll put a link link to it in the show notes as well um i also you know i feel like what they do is also they package what on the outside looking in seems like a noble cause like all these all this legislation is called save women's sports fairness women's sports um all it's it's all packaged around making a you know a victim first of all out of women which is like the second the second that people that historically have not cared about women start doing that you've got to have your spidey senses up yes and you're already seeing this in in the wnba right now with like the fallout with uh sophie cunningham and the protest in seattle a you have people who do not give a shit or that are now entering the conversation and they are doing it from a place that is cruel and bigoted and then you're also seeing people start to comment on the the the pages of i don't know if you saw this but there's a seattle storm player who's getting all these comments about keep uh men out of women's sports and this is somebody who you know fits like i don't want to like you know their sort of terminology of biological women yeah yeah and there's there's always this mission creep with stuff like this like okay now we've we've put in all this legislation now part two of this is going to be how can we how can we extend it further and we're already starting to see it happen i talked about this on last week's podcast but the heritage foundation which has used title nine as its justification for a lot of uh transgender sports sports fans is now talking about how title nine needs to be rolled back and the one thing that that that this writer who gosh like gosh you guys should look into him this guy's wickedly weird just a weird he talks about having how we need to roll back women's basketball scholarships because that's a form of social engineering that incentivizes women to be more aggressive like so you you have already gone from keep keep trans women out of out of sports to you you've you've widened the scope of this quite a bit and not a lot of time well i mean and what uh what a reveal of your long-term goal which is to you know somebody who can't be aggressive is a servant you never want an aggressive servant so we really can't be teaching women's sports if you're going to turn them into servants yeah and i you're right you're totally right about this trojan horse thing because the the law that's like it's not nice of me to chuckle at it but i have had like this little like well duh moment was like um it's obviously targeted at trans people but they're you know trying to take away the right to vote from people who have had their their id doesn't match up with their birth certificate so the the idea being that's really gonna target trans people well guess whose id also doesn't line up with their birth certificate married women so while tackling trans people while taking away trans actually what they've done is they've taken away the right to vote from the 50 percent of the U.S. population that is married and has chosen to change their name, which is probably close to 90%. Which is why I'm always like- I find out something I hate every single day. I was looking at the thing about anthropic burning books, and I was like, okay, I'm going to take a walk. This is today's version of that. That was a hard one. I saw that yesterday. I was like, this is too Fahrenheit 451 for me. This feels too Orwellian. They're going out of their way to be bad guys. There's no even hiding it anymore. Well, they wanted to hide it. We're going to burn some plants today. We've got a new idea, and it's that we're going to use these 101 Dalmatians to make a coat. Like, okay. They're probably doing that. I was going to make a joke that next they're going to be using the blood of babies to- But they already do. Yeah, they do. They do that. That's actually happening. There's nothing that's happening that's science fiction. No, it's so- It's so dark. Yeah, it's real bad. Which is also the argument for don't let that kind of shit, don't let that negative shit into the beautiful space that is women's sports. When you, you know, I'm sure you go to a ton of games. I go to a ton of games. Those games are parties. You run into friends there. Like, it's so empowering. Everybody's dressed so cool. It really feels like this just, like, wonderful, joyful thing. And so, even those, like, 40 pathetic people that came to do their tiny little protests against, like, trans women at the All-Star Game. I'm like- The Seattle game. Thank you. The Seattle game. Those- I don't- I liked, actually, what you said about not- about the league not paying that a ton of attention and not wanting to give those people the attention that they want. Because I do think that right now the NBA is allowed to be a league. And the WNBA is just repeatedly this, like, battleground now for a thing that's affecting so few people. It's obviously a farce. Yeah. That was- That was the goal of what I wanted to write. And a lot of it came from- I was watching this live stream. And, you know, the ratio of, like, tripods to actual protesters was the thing that just stood out to me more than anything else. Like, it was so- It was so pathetic, honestly. And I think that that was a big part of what colored my instinct to say, what are we doing even paying attention to these people? Like, this is ultimately what they want. Like, these are crisis actors. The reason that they're recording live is because they are waiting for somebody to come up to them so they can put it on the internet. Totally. And make it seem like the other side is actually what's provoking them. Well, you are provocateurs at the end of the day, right? And we saw, like- So, the- At the Seattle Storm game, you know, these two girls that are at the game, they're wearing, like, the- That's the other thing. This is also just, like, a branding exercise as well for the company that is, like, putting on a lot of this stuff. But they're wearing that brand shirt. And they're, like, holding these signs in support of Sophie. And a Seattle Storm co-owner goes up to them. And they have, like- I don't know exactly what was said. But, basically, there's some conflict. And what they said is that, you know, she called them insane and, like, yelled at them and screamed at them. I don't know what happened, ultimately. So, I'm not going to, like- Sounds awesome. That's great. That led to the suspension. Now, JK Rowling is weighing in. All of this stuff, right? So, like, my point was don't provoke them. The thing where I think I got it wrong was, A, a lot of the stuff that I believe about, like, the WNBA being embroiled in the culture wars and, like, being sometimes too responsive to what's going online, I think that using, like- Talking about that when it comes to this issue, I think, was a mistake because I think that trans people just generally feel so abandoned by every major institution that is supposed to protect them, right? Like, the Democratic Party has abandoned them. There was an article written by the Center for American Progress, which is basically, like, a very influential Democratic think tank, that was basically saying we should abandon the transgender people- transgender women in sports issue out of political expedience. So, you have people feeling incredibly abandoned right now. And I wasn't trying to suggest that trans people shouldn't be speaking out about this. I think I was coming at it from more of, like, a point of pragmatism, but I completely understand why people would feel abandoned by the fever, the storm, or the WNBA not speaking up and by me writing something about how that's a good idea. Like, it's totally- Especially, like, the reality is that, yes, something happened in that storm game that elevated it. At the same time, they were just- They were just going to keep doing this until that happened anyway. Like, they are on their way to Portland right now. During the live stream, I'm watching, the, like, the protesters or the rallyers, whatever they want to call themselves, they're talking about, like, getting a ride to Portland and, like, how they're going to go to Portland. They're like, oh, it'd be a real shame if Antifa tried to hurt us. Please don't hurt us, Antifa. Camera recording. Like, you know what the goal of this is, ultimately, right? So, that was going to happen anyway. And I think that- I feel- I feel really- I feel really bad about it. And I almost feel like- I feel like there was just, like, this, like, cognitive thing that I missed because I've been talking about how this is a Trojan horse, right? And then I watched the Trojan horses. I watched them ride in and I was like, oh, these people are too stupid to be a Trojan horse, basically. Which was a mistake that I'm still like, how did I do that? Like, how did I talk about the Trojan horse and then, like, not recognize it? I think there is- That that's a Trojan horse. I think there is some nuance here. I think- I think we have to remember, and maybe this is too, like, anarchic for this, like, conversation, but- Never. The WNBA is a business. And these teams are a business. They're corporations. And you cannot look to a corporation for comfort. And you cannot look often to a corporation for ethics. And I'm not saying that it's not- that it wouldn't be awesome for them to speak up. Yeah. But I think that the thing that we have to remember is, like, actually, the thing- the relief that's going to feel the best is going to come in from sports fans ourselves. It's going to be us being vocal, actual people, not a corporate organization. Actual people. The players speaking up means more. Fans speaking up means more. Yeah. Come back in the comments and say, and actually, all women are welcome here, means more than whoever. The Indiana Fever coming out to be like, you know- and they didn't. But, you know, they're actually not going to. You have to really think about where they are, too. The Indiana Fever is not going to come out and say, we support trans women. Because they're in Indiana. That is a bad business model for them. They're not going to say shit at all. So be disappointed in the corporations. And then hold the players that you love and yourself as a fan, and hold yourself, hold everybody, actually people in here, accountable for speaking up for our trans friends. Yeah. Yeah. I think- Maybe not a popular take, but- I just never, I'm never going to look to Starbucks to do something ethical. So I'm not going to look to the Indiana Fever organization to be my barometer of ethics. I think that gets to a larger tension, too, that I think a lot of fans are feeling about where the WNBA goes now, that it's in this growth moment as well. Does it actually stick to its activist roots as well? Now, I think you're right. Like, you nailed it in the sense that this is the players. The players have always defined the activist roots of the WNBA. The Players Association is, they're radical. Like, the way that the Players Association has fought for, I mean, really, when thinking back to the Wubble, like, when they were showing up in those shirts that were all about the Black Lives Matter movement, that was, they did, before the men did, they were the ones that kind of triggered the NBA into doing the same thing. Like, the players and the Players Association are largely, I think, really helpful, very ethical, and pro-trans. And I look more to the Players Association for coming out to say, actually, everyone's safe here than I do to the league itself. Because the players don't make money off of being pro-trans or anti-trans. That's just, they just have an opinion on it. The league makes money or loses money based on if they're pro-trans or anti-trans. Well, I think the players are in that equation now too, right? You mean, like, the players lose money if the league loses money? The players lose money if the league loses money on the sense of, like, revenue share. But there's also, they have all of their own endeavors. Like, every single WNBA player is also their own walking corporation at the same time. Yes, but individual, I mean, individual corporations are bigger. I mean, are, excuse me, it is different. Like, being the business, being the business, I understand what you're meaning where there's, like, people. They have different incentives now too, is what I'm saying. They do. They have different incentives, but I think that people more than corporations, whether the person themselves is their own business or not, there is an integrity. And integrity is a long game. Yeah. Like, corporations, like, forget about this all the time, but we will remember the players that spoke up when it wasn't comfortable and it wasn't profitable. and those will be the ones players that will have a longer career whether it's being uh announcers for games whether it's selling books down the road whether it's coaching like we actually do as a league i think that the people who are outspoken yeah and for others and protect protection of others become these icons absolutely for our league yeah there's also just a larger question too of who do you want to be agreed yeah agreed that's a big part of it yeah like the world will offer you especially if you have any level of public notoriety the world world will offer you any opportunity to take money and popularity and trade that in for your values like that's just where we're at and that exists on like a micro and a macro level at this point like it's not because i mean so many people exist in this like attention creative economy as well yeah yeah it's also kind of strange to me because we don't we're not really we don't have like a bunch of trans women playing in the WNBA or in sports at large i know and so i want to i want to point that out to folks when we're having these conversations like actually literally what are you talking about like are you using the WNBA to somehow talk about that the the 10 less than 10 NCAA athletes that identify as trans yeah out of 500,000 and by the way it's going to be less yes as well yeah NCAA already like kowtowed to Trump and instituted a transgender ban yeah so it doesn't feel connected at all and so that's how i understand if let's say that you know really attributing the absolute best ethics and best energy to the league possible in this scenario i can see why they would ignore it it doesn't feel like it has a lot to do with the WNBA it doesn't make sense it feels like kind of this non-sequitur of like we're watching women's professional sports and we're having a conversation about nine NCAA athletes yeah okay that feels weird so ignore it doesn't make sense and the larger conversation is ideally the league would come out and say that is not welcome here if you come to this arena with a sign that is anti-trans women you don't we're not putting it on the tv yeah and you're sitting in the back you know that's ideal but once again i do not put faith in corporations yeah i mean what are they going to do be like these are the tickets you paid for but they're on camera so you don't get to have them by the way those tickets were paid for by um a donor i don't know who the donor is some mysterious donor that is somehow really interested in uh in women's sports the tickets of the the two girls at the front with uh the the shirts and the signs those were paid for um they were by the way there's a funny like i was looking at someone respond to that so the person responding to that was like oh my god those tickets probably didn't go for more than fifty dollars and they went for 1300 but the person who's like responding to that talking like probably you know under the guise of protecting women's sports is taking a pot shot at women's sports while they're doing that yeah yeah um yeah there there's there's no themselves no way to please misogynists as a women's sports fan so the people that are really sucking up to transphobes and misogynists that are also coming to a wnba arena i hope you stub your fucking toes yeah i hope her pillow's really warm on both sides yeah yeah you brought up the the term i think good faith when you're talking about let's like let's assume they had like the most good faith and one of the things that in like a lot of people said to me after i wrote the piece were like one person kind of like put it the most succinctly is like this isn't about like good faith disagreement or bad faith disagreement or whatever right it's about people who are suckers and people who are not suckers and the suckers are simultaneously the instigators um and that really that really stood out to me as because i also i feel like i mean i feel a little self-conscious about this i always feel like i was very recently a sucker in some ways um but that kind of painted the debate like or lack of what it like of really it being a debate in a much more accurate lens like you're either a sucker or you're an instigator or you're somebody who is willing to capitulate to what feels like a loud army that is saying that is basically telling you what to do through legislative agenda and you know executive orders what what uh because i think this is tricky what were the folks that were responding to your article what was it that they wanted like what was it that they thought would have been the right response i can't speak for everybody i think what i've done is just really think about um a the people that were really hurt by it because like i'm pretty stubborn like i'm not one to apologize about something just to like make it go away if anything i think it's cool you're talking about it i think if anything well i want to it's not like it's just what i ended up communicating is just like ultimately the opposite of what i want to communicate so i can sit here and say this is actually meant to communicate you know this is how it's being misperceived but at the end of the day that's my job like if my ability to communicate is not being perceived correctly like that is on me like i'm the journalist i'm the writer i'm the one who has the time to like actually sit down and think about these things so if i'm being misperceived or if i've hurt i don't even say misperceived like let's say like i've i've hurt the group that i am purporting to want to protect and all of this and i do um then i mean look the second thing that i want to say is that i'm not people start comparing you to van jones like you got to take a look at yourself man dear god like that's like there's just there were just some moments in there that really hit hard i was like okay i gotta take a step back and think about what i did wrong here um and the major critique being the major critique i would say is that my assumption that if the wnba stayed away from these issues that they would go away uh-huh and i think that i understand that was a huge who are actually behind a lot of this stuff the fact that they will go to any and every arena from here waiting for something to happen and in that situation inevitably something will happen they will use that to elevate this into a fox news story into a fox news story which is essentially what is happening as we are speaking right now yeah so like i was also wrong within 24 hours like if i did if i couldn't reflect on this it would kind of be no i think i i appreciate you having the conversation at because i i read the article and i think i i don't know if you're am of two minds here i really i i actually is this the cynic in me is like yeah just don't engage with this type of shit it's like uh i i've responded to a hateful comment on my like social media one fucking time and it actually didn't make me feel better and i think it it brought attention to the hateful comment and so i actually like cynically i'm like oh yeah let's move on let's focus on the sports let's focus on our players like let's us be the leaders and the part of me that wants better is like he agrees where that with the the league should take a stand the league should be our greatest ally the league should understand that as as an institution that has accepted so many people on the margins and pays the bills now of so many people on the margins and these people on they pay their bills to pay their fucking bills and these folks that are in this league are setting examples for all of these folks that are watching these games it is a political or political organization the wmba is a political organization and my cynicism says they are a capitalist organization my heart says you are a political organization like you and hopefully a very like radically liberal one so i there's a thing that's not equating right now in my mind between the league trying to make money and move forward right and the league remembering its history right and actually who's been yeah who's been here right who are you trying to please by not talking about it you know yeah and it's present too as well yeah um yeah exactly exactly i think that the folks that are trying to please aren't coming to the games yeah well they kind of are i think like i think it's you think it's getting bigger and bigger well the league itself is getting bigger and bigger so some more and more transphobes yeah more yeah and you know just also just like the general sort of person that like doesn't care you know there's just like a normie population that is entering this frame and i don't know how they feel to be honest um i think that the thing i i feel like we have to find some sort of answer to that contradiction in a way right because what makes the wnba so incredibly propulsive and beautiful is the fact that it has been a home to people on the margins and i do not think that like i've written a lot about like the things that i love about the wnba and it's like valkyries games and gabby williams saying for the gays and like them doing like the valkyries and like all of that stuff and like portland fire their fan base is very similar i think it being an actual place where trans people can not only find you know a safe space and community and joy but also what they bring to the table like that energy yes also comes from like the expansiveness that you have to your nature once you have actually gone through all of the trials and tribulations that come with having to invent yourself yes and that is an actual like fundamentally like spiritual and just defining aspect of what makes a league special so if you if if we don't find a solution like you lose something that is you're not going to find that in any other sport yeah and like that's that's important so it's tough and i think i missed the mark by just being like ignore it you know it's too easy an answer it's too easy an answer and it doesn't actually solve the problem and i think it's a it's a cynical answer in an exhausted period of time i think i think a lot of us that are sports fans feel exhausted by this and so i guess that's where i come in to say i read your article i thought you made a lot of great points and i think that your the the thing that's bumping for people is it should be refreshing to you and me because there are times where i think just getting so when you're really mired in sports news yeah and you're mired in political news and it becomes like your job to have an understanding of it and support uh and and be able to talk about it there is a real heaviness that sets in and and you just get really cramped by all the negativity and it feels like the negativity is taking away from the focus that you'd like to be paid to these incredible players and so i understand where you're at with like i had a little look it was like my obvious about it dude i get it yeah and that's why i think it's cool to talk about because i think actually all sports fans the women's sports fans specifically queer sports fans specifically we all get that we all get like fuck it just enjoy the game and then we come back to stuff after we've had a lot of fun and we're like oh my god and we go no that's right yeah we have to fight every day yeah yeah it's it's for the future yeah yeah totally yeah i will say one last thing and it kind of goes back to the good faith faith versus the suckers thing i think that the way that this debate is is is talked about it allows people to wrap something insidious and something that seems and i think that i enter i enter a conversation i just try to enter everything like just i try not to assume that people disagree who disagree with me are coming or doing it for like the worst possible reasons now that i should have more exceptions to that um and i think that i was easy on cunningham in a way that allowed her to it created a playbook for her to do that in a way and i've seen people like this like i should have just known better in the sense of like this person i've seen this bless your heart event evangelical like love the sinner hate the sin type of person before and i and i should have been less naive i think about it but that's it and i think we can unless you have something to respond to that this is what i'll say about sophie yeah i i think i think she has a real sparkle to her and uh she's she's got this incredible uh aggression like you talked about this she is fun to watch play it is fun to watch her defend caitlyn clark it is fun she is there is something really intoxicating about her i think play defense even dude i think so she's like incredible people and i think you said it really well when you when you reminded the audience that the reason that she gets to be that way is because of things like title nine and i believe specifically that people in the sports world because they're it's such a diverse space yeah i believe she has the power to make a different decision about how she wants to talk about trans people and how she wants to present i'm really hoping that this is like an oversight and immaturity and yeah that she's having this kind of like really that feels familiar to me this like a young republican kind of say the worst thing and there's no consequences for her because she's a pretty blonde white right like who does she have to be like she's a pretty blonde white woman doesn't want to walk away feeling like a car exploded behind their back totally but i think because she's so charming and i do find her charming yeah she has the power to if she'd like to have a really long career in the league as either an announcer or or whatever just some type of figurehead if she remembers who really has an ethical she came an ethical turnaround realizes why she gets to be here realizes who she hurts when she talks like that and realizes how small she is and how small she is when she talks like that and realizes how small she is when she talks like that and realizes how small she is when she talks like that and realizes how small she is when she's bullying for what fucking reason yeah and if you are really middle of the road which is what she's saying which is like she kind of cares about nothing but and and she didn't also i just want to say it really pissed me off i think the worst thing that she said above everything else above even like saying like just scared for the girls in the bathroom because that's like such an inherently psychotic like psychotic argument that really is a commentary on rape culture it has nothing to do with the trans community and for some reason we can't have that talk but there's also it's not like there's a cop standing outside of every women's bathroom a man can just enter a woman's bathroom at any time and do anything he wants to it speaks more to what we're at we are admitting that we think if a man is in a bathroom with a woman he's gonna rape her that's that's what we're all but instead of then being like okay we need to talk about men we're like we should target trans women but at one point she's like everyone thinks i hate trans and i thought it was everything that we needed to know to know about sophie cunningham that she could not say trans people in that moment and so i hope she has some kind of incredible come to jesus and she has come to jesus i hope she comes to actual jesus and not evangelical jesus because i she's got a twinkle and i hope she doesn't use it for fox news reasons yeah yeah there's there's plenty of incentives on both ends i was watching as i like to do i was watching uh erica kirk try to be the face of the turning point usa movement i love watching erica kirk i love her when she stares into the camera like that it's incredible let me tell you those those folks are scouting for a new one they're watching sophie cunningham and they're like that's that's victor wimben yama like they need they need they need a new standard bearer they do because like what they've got is not working yeah when i grew up in ohio i thought i was republican and and i and so i have a i have i do have the belief that people can make radical differences uh in in opinion i believe that and uh me too i hope i hope she has a big turnaround me too i don't think she will but i hope she does it's possible stranger things have happened yeah um all right crazy segue who is your all gay wnba team i wrote this down because um i knew that i forget everything the minute we started talking and i just want to talk out some of my people are retired sure uh some of my elder queers we love we love them my team is i'm gonna have chelsea gray in my one spot i'm gonna have tarassi and bird as interchanging in my two and three positions okay i'm gonna have my stewie as a stewie as my moving big in the four spot and i'm gonna have bg as my immovable five there's a lot of balance on this team i like it because there's actually a lot of like similar skills um but or like even similar positions like bg and stewie are not playing the same game like stewie is able to take it out to the three like i was when i was a five and i played uh when i was playing basketball and i had a a girl that was playing across from me who was in our four spot we were the same height it was just that she had range in her game like where she could really shoot it from a distance i think that's the but i was violent and immovable so that's my stewie bg yeah okay i think i like your play style i think tarassi who's your wmb comp i'm i actually want to say angel reese here love i i do want to say angel reese i think um i had a bad temper uh i had to get a lot of my own damn rebounds but could was a was a downer trash talker like great fucking energy i think on a team i was always i was never our highest scorer but i was always their captain oh okay and uh i love watching angel i just think that there's she's like so dynamic uh yeah i'm gonna say angel love which is actually way too flattering for me like i'm i'm actually probably the guy that holds the like stick that has the towel on the end of it when they like rub sweat off the ground that's like actually probably my comp now i want to say that i do have some uh reserve players i think should be added to this list like this is a very deep and beautiful bench i do want um arique there i really uh i think great six women out it out of respect and because i think it's important vandersloot just that i'm one of those like very technical just there's something chillingly technical about vandersloot like after after arique like i want someone to go she's like a game of thrones character totally yeah there's something really cool there and then Alyssa Thomas, I think Alyssa Thomas deserves to be in a starting five, but I'm also picking people that I I know. Right. Yeah. And so Alyssa Thomas, I think anywhere, because that is the most serious enforcer I've ever seen in the WNBA. And every team needs to have an enforcer. If I'm going to make another comp, I'd say I was close to an Alyssa Thomas with none of the skill. Got it. OK. OK. Yeah. Yeah. And also, let me say, I was Angel Reese with none of the skill. And these are people that were. You still hoop? No, I don't. I played. I actually played volleyball longer than I played. I ended up playing volleyball in college and then I just don't do anything anymore sports wise. And except for mountain, not mountain climbing, excuse me, I rock climb because that's like the new gay nightclub. It is. Yeah. No, I have no interest in rock climbing. I've been thinking about performatively rock climbing for a while now. Dude, the gear. The gear is so good. It's so sick. The gear is so good. It's so sick. I just want a picture of like going like this and like your shoulder just looks so good. Like, I just want that. It's really. You walk out of there with like the most incredible forearm pump, which obviously in queer culture is. No, for sure. It's important. Very horny. So. Yeah. I also, I just can't do more thing. I am already on the way to having Purple Tunnel, a gay, but basketball, guitar. Good for you, man. I had to. I tried golfing, but it was like this. I can't add another thing. And I feel like that about rock climbing. I feel like there's room left to add more things, but in a like in a way where I'll never see my friends or family again. I do want to make I want to make a couple more ads. And I'm just going to say this is my cheer squad. OK. Stud Buds. Yeah. My announcers, Sid and TP. Love. And I would maybe move Candice off the bench here because it would be scary for me to personally have Candice on the bench because I think she's doesn't should not be there. Yeah. Like in so she's been there. I feel like if she was not in the game and anything wrong was happening, like she'd be like, yeah, I think she's got a future coach in here. Every time I listen to her on the podcast, she has to be like, all she's doing is giving a Leah Boston hell for missing. Yes. And like, just I think Candice should be a coach. And so I'm going to move her into my assistant coach should be should be like a player coach like. Yes. Like a Bill Russell type. Oh, wow. And then I'm gonna put Cheryl Riven as my head coach for now. Yeah. Okay. I love that. I love that. One thing I like about like the all queer team thing right now is that there was a long time where honestly, I'm not gonna lie, like the straights were kicking her asses, especially with like, who's in the league right now? Like, it's like Asia fee, Aaliyah Boston, Caitlin Clark, all straight. Like, that's tough. That's really, it's really tough. But now we got Paige and easy. And like, we're getting some balance back. Asia, I think, is my right now. My most fun. Player to watch. Like, I think she's just so cool. Yeah. But I am happy. I actually didn't really realize this until I was reading a big list. It was that I didn't realize that Kalia Copper was gay, which is stupid of me, but I just hadn't like thought about it. Yeah. And I've been to multiple all star games and I say consistently Kalia Copper is the best dressed and is the. Yes. It's like just so deeply cool. Her and Jackie Young like really inform what I buy. Yeah. And understood. I think that's right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All right. I'm trying to remember. Do we have anything else? Dude, I actually I thought about the the one thing that I would like to say about this trans debate and I'll keep it short. But I think something that I wish we had more pride about is that every time we have this conversation about trans players in the league. And it's transphobic to say this. But like when we when we call a trans woman, when we go out of our way to call her a biological male, I just want to acknowledge that that is transphobic. It's disrespectful. It sucks. Avoid doing it. But when these people make this argument that trans women shouldn't be in a league with cis women. The reason is that men are better at sports than women. When I was growing up and maybe it was like the tomboy me, maybe it's like the future like trans person in me. But when I was growing up, we would never in like a very feminist way, we would never have said that boys were better than us. That was such a load of bullshit. You would never say that. And I feel like part of the soul of the game has been diminished by a bunch of women who have decided now that for the sake of argument, they will consistently say. That men are actually better athletes than women in their push to not include trans women. You are ripping yourself. You are you are digging. You're you're really hurting yourself. You're admitting that you think women are the weaker sex. You're calling all women athletes inferior. And so the space that we fought for where we wanted women to be respected, you have now made the argument for women feeling safe in that space. That they are not good athletes. So I just want to remind that if we the the audience members that can't get around the trans part of it. Target your pride. Oh, yeah. And maybe targeting your pride will lead you to a space where you can admit that it's wrong for us to also be bullying trans women and that they deserve to be in spaces with us and that a trans woman is a woman. But if you can't get there right away, get there via your pride. Well, all that. But I actually did want to ask you one thing. So Jocular is ending. You just came out with this album. Yeah. I'm just so curious. What like what's what's next for you? Well, I just went on tour. Is that like a loaded question to ask someone who just did a bunch of things? Are you like is what's next for me chilling? Actually, I'm I'm I'm spending some time writing a film right now. I never am chilling. I have like an aversion to chilling. Yeah. I've like ran. I've decided that I want to get good at soccer. So I've destroyed my free time with that. Are you Holland filled? What do you mean? Erling Holland? Like the. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, I have not heard that. And I love that. Yeah, I love him. I love him. A really respectful boy. Yes. Yeah. I felt like like an old person watching him when there was like a specific moment where all the men were like seated or standing and or in chairs and their girlfriends were sitting on the ground and like a postgame and he was on the ground and his girlfriend was in the chair and I was like, yes, that's a good. Good. Good young man. I know. That's right. I went on tour. I'm about to go on tour again. I'm writing all the time. I'm working on a ton of stuff. And I think for me, I'm really lucky because I am a workaholic. But the work I do, I'm a workaholic because I have a lot of different avenues where I get to make art. And so every hour I'm like, oh, shit, that other. I can do that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I'm just trying to water. All my clients. Yeah. Can you tell us anything about like what this film is about? I can't. OK. OK. I cannot. But hopefully one day you'll see it. Yeah. I actually have one last question for you. What do you think is missing from like the pop culture aspect of women's sports right now? Oh, we obviously need our own heated rivalry. Like that has to be coming. I'm sure that's coming. Like I this is I probably shouldn't say this, but it was really funny. I pitched. A hockey show. Oh, really? Yeah. I pitched a hockey show and to a network I will not name. And they had given me this like kind of like, oh. Look after the pitch and I was like, what is that? It's like a pity. Yeah. Yeah. And then a week later, heated rivalry came out. I was like, oh, oh, they were like telling me there's no room for this right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But but I I think I. I can find myself in this moment being like trying to compare basketball like women's basketball to men's basketball. Like, actually, what do we want? And I think we're growing at an appropriate rate. Like you're wearing a play a society shirt right now. Like I remember going to one of the WNBA games and or maybe it wasn't. No, excuse me. It was an all star game and their shit was set up and they're selling like really cool streetwear. And we're starting to have these brands that are doing really cool like women queer specific. Streetwear and I'm seeing it in the tunnel fits and I'm seeing it in the announcers. And I'm there's just swag that's like finally being acknowledged in the league. And now the players are actually getting paid more. So they're getting there's even more swag. Yeah. And I don't know. I love that. I think. Yeah. I don't I don't want to focus on our growth right now. I want to focus on. Yeah. Just be happy. Yeah. This is like the coolest. Yeah. League in sports. In my opinion. Like we've got some of the coolest people on earth in this league. Yeah. They are so friendly. They are so cool. They are so talented. Yeah. Let's focus on how much we're enjoying this game and stop worrying about scaling. Like. Yeah. That is such a good point. We are always talking about growth with women's basketball. And the reason growth is growth is the reason we're having this fucking trans debate in the first place because we're like, well, how can we protect the corporation from having to pick a side on this? Yeah. Well, the WNBA that I know before I realized the thought of it as an organization was was home to a ton of queer players yeah a home to a ton of specifically women of color who are queer women of color who are mothers that are like making money in this league feeling safe in this league feeling like they can advocate for themselves in this league yeah and now all of a sudden we're talking about growth and all of that is down the tube yeah fuck growth oh yeah see where we are integrity yeah and also the other end of it is it's because the wnba is getting popular that it's becoming a target like i i think there is a very keen understanding whether you are at like the high level machinations of thinking about how culture is like streams downward to politics or whether you are just a person who is watching this become popular and deeply uncomfortable with it there i do think that there is an understanding whether it's conscious or subconscious of how powerful seeing everything that you just stated is yeah yeah yeah that is so true true and i think that in sports especially if fox news is attacking the wnba because they know how dangerous it is to see a bunch of women and queer people feel empowered yeah in a safe space with a bunch of women and queer people as fans and uh so i can see why they're they're bombing it but i i think uh if i had a dream if i had a dream for the league it would be that the the growth that we saw was the league recognizing how unbiased and unbiased and unbiased people feel empowered and empowered and empowered and empowered unbiased and unbiased and unbiased people feel empowered and empowered and empowered so that it could say fuck you here's our integrity because sports men sports teams do that all the time where they'll straight up be like you know that when the washington team the nfl team yeah did not want to rename and so they were like we're not no we're not picking a name for years we're gonna be the washington football team like just rolls off the tongue they picked oh they picked a bad bad angle but their integrity as racists was they they followed their heart they as an organization they were like you know what people are still going to come here they're still going to watch our games we're still going to be televised our integrity racist integrity is intact wmba i want us to have our beautiful radical trans-inclusive women-focused like safe space energy i want us to have that integrity so hard because we know we're undeniable and people are going to watch the games and our players are incredible and our fans are incredible and so anybody that comes in and they want to do a fox news segment on on the wmba the wmba is like fuck you we're gonna be here anyway because they they are gonna be here anyway hell yeah okay you know what that feels like a great place and thanks you are thank you so much dude thanks for having me hard hard weird like hard topics but i really appreciate having like a nuanced dig in session to this like tough shit me too me too no i really appreciate you just going there yeah yeah this was awesome thank you thanks dude all right um you can listen to tolerance on you know any platform but for spotify so we'll go with that yeah and check out our final episode yeah wait what do you guys have planned like what's we're doing a a live stream session at the end of august and it's that's yeah it's really the end of the road so go if you want to find out more about that go to our instagram or our patreon and find out the end of the road for dracula you should have like a like end of podcast party or something i feel like i imagine a lot of your fans are in la a little untamed spirits moment that's a great idea maybe we charlie are you ready not done our producer charlie is here charlie right side down yeah awesome all right thank you er uh thank you to charlie thank you charlie yeah charlie who i just met who gives great hugs oh charlie's the best yeah thank you to victoria valencia for producing and we will be back very soon oh my gosh trade deadline is going to be over when we're back and we're gonna have some good basketball as well we're gonna talk i know a lot of people just want to hear me talk about basketball and i appreciate that and i want to as well and we will be doing that very very soon um gotta break it up a little bit make them hungry for the old stuff i like that i like that edge them yeah you thought you were gonna hear about pure basketball today no no you gotta wait for it yeah first we have to spread the gauge yes and i think we did i think we did i think we did yeah all right thank you anything is possible anything is possible you want to be the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the apple sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores it shows up right on your iphone lock screen making it easy 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