SONG DIVING with Jason Mraz

Welcome to Song Diving, where songwriters go deep into the songs they wrote and the songs that wrote them. From American songwriter, I'm Dean Fields. Our guest today is Jason Maraz. We talk about songs like "I'm Yours," "I Won't Give Up," "Lucky," and "The Remedy." And we get into songwriting as meditation, creative prompts as doorways and inspiration, and the joy and doubt that can come with a song that suddenly arrives all at once. We also geek out on the music and voices that shaped the way he hears and writes songs. From Michael Jackson and Ani DeFranco, to Willie Nelson, and the humor and warmth of he-ha, playing at his grandma's house. Along the way we talk about how songwriting began as a parlor trick for his friends, how he almost didn't believe in his hit song "I'm Yours," and why now is the right time to share the gospel album he originally recorded as a Christmas gift for his grandmother. It's a conversation about the songs that heal us, the songs that surprise us, and what can happen when you let yourself become an instrument for inspiration? Let's go song diving with Jason Maraz. Welcome Jason Maraz, how are you? I'm fantastic, good to see you, Deed. Good to see you too, it's been a while. I usually start this way back in the beginning, like as far back as you can possibly go, before you could play on anything, like the songs that were just around you. I like that question, yeah. Well, my parents loved Caroline the Shag music, so that's like rhythm and blues that runs from probably, you know, "Mertel Beach" to Detroit. That was like East Coast 1950s and 60s music. A lot of harmonies, a lot of duop groups kind of evolved into that field, so grew up listening to a lot of ink spots, four tops, temptations, Motown, General Johnson, Chairman of the board, like energized duop groups, which I think led me to just enjoying the sound of harmony and flirtatious music, music that made you laugh or made you look at relationships in a fun way. They were kind of raunchy as well. These were like songs of men describing, you know, women on the dance floor, or, yeah, I would have to say raunchy. You know, when I really think back to these types of songs, I remember hearing a song called like 36, 24. I don't even know what the other number was, but it was about the measurements of, you know, your dance partner. Your songs like lipstick, powder, and paint, raunchy songs that are probably degrading today. But these were the types of songs that were around me in my dad's household. And in my mom's world, it was more like Ingobert, Humperdingke, and Air Supply, you know, the Yacht Rock sound. So it was radio and jukebox type of stuff. Do you feel that influence from any of that stuff when you're creating now? And does anything that have a lasting effect? I do. Because I want to create songs that are pretty, harmonically pretty, you know, like those great Yacht rock tunes. But then also make your laugh like the kinds of songs that my dad was listening to. And then I should also add my grandma's house, which was the music of He-Ha and gospel radio. And He-Ha was always entertaining, even if they brought on an act to do something serious. It typically ended with a punchline, with some kind of joke to lighten the mood again. And I feel like I'm a combination of all three of those things, you know, the pretty music of my mom's household and the dance floor swagger of my dad's household. And then this sort of sweet and humorous channel that my grandma was listening to. That's awesome. How about when you started to kind of develop your own taste when you were picking the songs out? What were the first songs that you gravitated to that really felt like your own? Mmm. I mean, at my earliest, you know, being able to save my pennies and dollars to go by 45 records at the Bradley's department store. I was buying whatever was coming through, you know, top 40 radio and MTV. I was buying, you know, Paula Abdul and I think I bought Arsenio Hall's parody single. And I was getting into hip hop and R&B. Michael Jackson was probably that portal for me, you know, discovering thriller and off the wall. That was probably the age when I could start to press play. That music really mattered to me, the dance floor music of the Gap Band. And I think that was because my dad was dating and going to a night club and I wanted to feel the beat and that music, the beat was real obvious to me. And so then as I'm collecting, starting to play my own tunes, I'm inheriting my dad's records which were also included singer songwriters like Jim Croci and Kat Stevens. My friends and I, gosh, when I think about it, it's all over the place. As much as I'm loving R&B and hip hop and that stuff that's emerging, I'm also loving guns and roses, you know, sweet child of mine. And you know, the big ballads of those hair bands, like home sweet home by Motley Crew. And then inspiration from my grandma, you know, I'm still actually spinning Ray Stevens who in a way had this like charming ability to touch your heart and make you laugh at the same time. So it was a culmination. Again, I think I have to refer to all three households for influencing my music. And then there's that other household of your friend base that's coming through your classroom and your after school hangs, you know. Yeah. I like to think about these conversations as being like a mixed tape. What Michael Jackson's on would you put on there? Now, oftentimes when I'm writing a song, I think I'm really onto something and then I realize I'm just rewriting Heal the World or We Are the World, both Michael Jackson songs. So I usually have to stop whatever I'm working on and just fall back in love with that. But gosh, there's so many Michael tunes. Maybe human nature, that's kind of a favorite. Which also has its origin in the in the rock world having been written by the keyboardist of the toto. Yeah. What do you love about that one? What do you love about human nature? Ooh. Um, yeah. The melodies and the chords are actually so close together, but they sound like giant leaps apart. These are like little half steps and little steps down. And whenever I try to like, I've tried to play this song on the guitar and everything is so close together. It's right there. It doesn't. You don't have to make big moves. And yet it feels ginormous and almost impossible to play all those voicings. So how complex it is and yet it's so accessible. Yeah. Right on. How about a race, Steven's song? A race, Steven's song. He's got a few. And one of them I've actually covered for my new record. He didn't write it. Albert Brumley, I believe, was the author. The song is called Turn Your Radio On. But the first time I ever heard that song was on a race, Steven's album. Probably right up there with the Mississippi Squirrel Revival. Yeah. Well, Mississippi Squirrel Revival is, I think, it's a ginormous song. It's about a kid who sneaks a squirrel into church and then the squirrel gets loose and everybody thinks, you know, everybody thinks all kinds of different things. And it's a fantastic adventure inside of a song. And Turn Your Radio On is more about sort of tuning into that consciousness, tuning your own radio into receiving the blessings or receiving the ideas and the gifts of the muse or the gifts of the spirit to enhance your life. And I think that's a beautiful sentiment. Yeah. Looking at your own catalog since we're on race, Steven's. Is there a song of yours that you feel like you can really feel that influence? One of my songs, when I started to write songs and perform songs live was a song called The Dream Life of Ran McNally. It's not a great song, but it was played a lot in my coffee shop era and it was requested a lot. And I think because it had this comedic and like adventure feeling, it was quite a long song. It had a lot of room for improvisation. But the verses took you to different places in the world and had little punchlines in them. And I have to credit listening to race, Steven's or Weirdel Jankovic or watching He-Haul to have had that want or even that inspiration of the know-how to create comedic verses, verses that we're going to land at a punchline. You know, Willie Nelson has also graded this where you know your punchline and you can write your way into the end of that joke. So I'd say The Dream Life of Ran McNally, I often forget my own catalog and certainly stuff that I put out on albums didn't always contain the humor that I would include in a live show or the coffee shops. Along those lines, when you think about the influence of Michael Jackson, what's a song that feels like you can really feel that influence? I have a song called "Unlonely" that's very groovy, very fast, very high. It's a balance between falsetto and a full voice with super fast lyrics. Anytime I go to that place, I do kind of have to ask myself, like, what would Michael do? He'd probably like, grab his jennies and really go for it, you know? What do you remember about writing "Unlonely"? I wrote it with three other people. And it was a nice combination of those three other people, quite musical in providing the bed of the track and cheering me on and then I was kind of free to flow the verses, which came out very, very fast, which is great. If I've got a good bed and a cheerleading squad, then I feel like I have an audience in the room that I'm already ready to entertain. If I'm by myself, I kind of have to imagine who that audience is or I have to beat my own audience and try to entertain myself. And typically the songs come out slower. But in this case, "Unlonely" it was one of the other writers who had the title. And I was like, "Oh, that's an interesting non-word that could be a word." And it just kind of took off from there. Do you tend to write from a title or do you tend to get a groove first on the guitar? Tend to get a groove first. It's much co-writing as I have done and I've probably done hundreds of co-writing sessions. I still mostly write "Unlone" and I always write about whatever's going on. It could be a slow pattern on the piano. It could be a groove on the guitar. Rarely does it come without music, but it does happen. And I'll usually sing into whatever's going on, whether it's positive and it's just going to be a souvenir of this week or this trip I'm on. Or it's a healing. There's a soreness in my heart due to something that's happened in the world or in my life or my family. And only then does the importance of the song become realized and then only then do I start sort of fishing for titles. That might really just be the result of me trying to complete the phrase and then it might be, "Oh, if it lands on a comforting or familiar thought, then that's probably the title for me." But I rarely start with the title. What's a good example of a song that went through that full process that you're just talking about? Where you're just messing around and then you had something going on and you're thinking about what's going on and then you heal yourself. Yeah, well, I'm going to give up as a great example. Sitting at my kitchen table on a Sunday morning, I'd been going through a breakup and I've been playing a lot of songs and dropped D and just kind of getting familiar with that tuning on my fingers. And so I was just kind of noodling around on this D to G as a meditation and singing for the loss but trying to find the good in it. There's always a part of me that's like, maybe if they hear this, they'll be impressed and come back or I can make something good of this bad situation and when I hear it, I'll be impressed and I'll come back, meaning I'll come back around out of my sadness back into a place of gratitude. So I'm singing outcome versus, my friend is not present but I'm singing to them in sort of spirit and it doesn't really occur to me until I get to the chorus that, oh, I'm writing a song. I'm not just meditating and making things up to heal myself. Once I landed on, I won't give up on us which was a very true sentiment. I don't want to give up on the friendship. That's when it, like, I got the tingles and I said, oh, I think I'm writing a song right now. Hearing myself say, I won't give up, made me feel good. It was affirming and so that then gives me the motivation to write the second verse and so forth. It came out of a really true, like, medicinal musical meditation. Yeah. And it appears to have done that for a lot of people when they listen to it. So, right? When, when? Absolutely. Yeah. I've had the most success with that type of songwriting and song sharing. If it comes from a true place where, yes, I'm practicing songwriting but I didn't know I was like songwriting. I wasn't doing it for the commercialism. I was doing it for the practice of the craft and for the catharsis, almost like, yeah, art therapy. Yeah. And what's done with that day is the song done or do you revisit it later? So it's almost done. There's a lot there. All the verses are there because I had that cadence and I had that chorus. And I sat with it for a few weeks before circling back around to it, realizing it needed a bridge. I wanted to have a different energy moving it in the middle and my neighbors were present. My neighbors Michael and Nancy Natter, they live up the street. They were present. They are also songwriters. I think of them as musical midwives because they will sit and hold space while I do this crying musical meditation. And they're there to help capture it or cheer me on or hold me through it. And so I credit them as songwriters on it. And they're the ones Michael is actually the one who brought me the bridge idea of all these words sort of streaming out which I loved because I love a rap cadence. So we worked on that bridge together. That's awesome. Midwife. I like that. Musical midwives, yeah. Hey, it's Dean. If you're enjoying the show, there's a lot more waiting for you inside the American songwriter membership. The full, uncut video version of this episode, including the moments we couldn't fit here, is available exclusively for members. So if you want to dive deeper, join American songwriter membership free for 30 days at members.americansongwriter.com. If you're enjoying this episode, we've also put together a companion playlist on Spotify. Songdiving is a conversation that plays like a mixtape of the songs we love and the music we're about to discover. The playlist lets you listen along and dive deeper into the songs, themes, and ideas that come up here. Just search Spotify for songdiving mixtape. When you're thinking about songs that fulfill that for you, that actually give you that healing, what songs do you turn to be healed by? Hmm. Good question. Nowadays I've been turning to classical music or neoclassical music, P and it's like Nils from because the instrumental allows me to feel all that emotion, but still be the writer on top in my own head and heart. So that's really where I've been the last, probably decade of my life, is listening to a lot of instrumental. But prior to that, you know what? It would surprisingly be a lot of radio head all through like the late 90s to early mid 2000s. When I felt like I needed some healing, I turned to the sort of mumbled tracks of radio head. The lyrics kind of, it's like, it's like, "Rain drops on a windshield. You can't see all the way through it, but you can get glimpses of the world in it." And that's what I like about their music is. I can't understand every lyric, but what is coming through is really touching me. Bjork is the same way I can listen to some ballads of Bjorks and ballads of radio head and get this healing from the sparseness of lyrics, from the incompletion of lyrics. And I think that's because it allows me, because maybe I like to write and think and create. Maybe it allows me to fill in the blanks in that way. That's cool. The song of yours that came out super duper quickly, like surprised you how it just landed on you. I'm yours. It was one of those. I've been very lucky to have quite a few songs that come out very quickly. I have a song on my new record called "Peach Pie." I love it. It came out very quickly. I was working in the garden, trying to protect my tree from the squirrels that are always well positioned to get the fruit as soon as it's ripe. It's like they know when I'm going to harvest, so they punch in the night before and they clear the tree. I'm out there working on it, and the melody and the song idea just arrives, even without an instrument. I run inside and I knock it out in probably 15 minutes. I'm yours was the same way. I was sitting in my room, looping four chords on an electric guitar and muting the strings. To me it felt like my favorite Bob Marley chord loop. I was actually having a great day, but I'd been through a breakup, maybe hadn't written a song in a little while. I was kind of hungry for it. I just start singing to what I call the great unknown. you could read. to maybe as God or the universe, but it's the great unknown. And I'm singing to the great unknown that I'm ready, that I want to be available for joy and for music and for life. And I'm yours just comes out. Like pretty much all of the verses, everything, the bridge, everything. I may have changed one or two words a year or two later, as I start performing it live. I start to make a few tweaks, but everything just came out. And it really is me saying, I won't hesitate no more. It cannot wait. I'm yours. I'm here. I'm ready. My instruments tuned. Make me an instrument. I am yours. And just so singing into the feelings, singing into the space, brought that song forward very, very quickly. So quickly that I didn't believe in it. Like I thought, OK, that was cute. That was a cute exercise. It sounds like a nursery rhyme. I must be borrowing it from some nursery rhyme I've heard. Why don't I put that aside and get back to this album that I'm making. So I didn't include it on my second album. And then I started playing it live. I put it on my MySpace page. I started playing it live about a year later. And people really responded to it. And I thought probably because of how it's written in these primary colors and how simple it is. And then over the next few years, it just continued to grow and grow and grow. And probably because it came out so fast, so effortlessly and so true to life, I think that's why it resonated. Yeah. And the message is great. And you can feel it. You mentioned Bob Marley. Let's talk about Bob Marley. What do you love about Bob Marley? We love Bob Marley. Oh gosh. Bob Marley was, you know, he was an activist and a lover, a lover of life, you know, a lover of nature. He was a songwriter inside of this reggae movement. Now reggae movement has songwriters in it. But Bob has this sort of almost American pop songwriting style to his the way he delivered it. Yeah. I mean, this is me being analytical about Bob later. I think the first time I heard it, it just felt so just beautiful, you know, redemption song, no woman, no cry. And then you've got these activism songs filled with such rhythm and everyone in the bands playing percussion. Yeah, there was just, it was like a spirit. It was a beautiful rebellion music. And in my teens in high school, you need to rebel against something, whether it's just living at home with your parents or rebelling against homework. So that music really pairs well with that, you know, I've got my drivers license now, I can go where I want, I can listen to Bob Marley. Yeah. I'm not surprised by that influence, but what about an influence that we would never, ever guess? Then it was a big part of you. I was a late arrival to guitar. I didn't really touch a guitar to my senior year of high school. I just didn't know anyone who played and no one introduced me to the instrument. I had had a piano in my house growing up, so I was able to bang around on some chords. When I was in high school, like senior year of high school in early years of college, I still even hadn't even really discovered the Beatles. And whenever I would have friends pick up a guitar and play a Beatles song, I thought it was one of theirs. I was like, wow, that's such a great song. And they're like, yeah, it's the Beatles. So like, oh, I should really check these Beatles out. Same thing in college. I saw this band play across the universe. I was like, that's the coolest song ever. You guys write that? And so I started learning Beatles songs, which kind of led me to like one and learn Bob Dylan songs. But then my, I got really lit up by Ahni DeFranco Soulcoffing. Maybe Soulcoffing is a surprising influence. Yeah, I would say. Mike Doty and Soulcoffing was very, very cool. It kind of had slam poetry lyrics or almost lyrics derivative of Bob Dylan, but over a sample based funky music with weird guitar tunings. Ahni DeFranco quite similar in like really slap happy, heavy cool guitar riffs with sort of non-formulaiic lyrical approach, which I loved. I wanted to just write verses all day long and no choruses. This was like mid to late 90s. And I think lyric heavy music was at the forefront. You know, we were coming off of counting crows August and everything after which I think is a lyrically impressive album. So I fell in love with Soulcoffing, G-Love and Special Sauce, which again is this cool guitar music but wrapping great verses. And I started playing guitar. Ahni, Dave Matthew, Soulcoffing, Abandoned Out of Richmond, the agents of Good Roots were introducing me to what they called Pop Jazz because they were jazz musicians. You know, guitar and sax especially were playing incredible, rich, long jazz riffs with Brian and Stewart on the rhythm section who actually became the rhythm section of my first album. They being in our backyard of Richmond, Virginia showed me that you could write pop music. You could make it interesting. You could also then just change the channel mid song and do something super jazzy. I liked music that kind of broke the rules of formula and I feel like, yeah, Ahni. Ahni is a good one. You know, I've had her on the show and she, awesome. Yeah, she talked about her first songs being Beatles songs, but you're learning them at an age where you can connect to them in a completely different way. She picked up a guitar really young. You're mentioning all these people who played with a real singularity. Like Ahni's playing is her thing. Dave Matthews way is his thing. It's interesting to me for you to be diving into guitar at a time when you're consuming this challenging guitar work and probably trying to recreate them. I imagine you were on some sort of like crazy fast track to learning guitar just because that's what you were listening to. Yeah, exactly. So I think I skipped a few steps. I didn't take theory. I just started, you know, with voice shapes and then realizing, oh, I could make those same sounds and different voicings up here and over here. Just through discovery. It was probably the slow way to do it. But I wanted to write songs. I didn't necessarily want to play covers or copy other people, but I wanted access to the instrument so that I could be mobile and create songs. Prior to that, I was using the piano at home or a little keyboard that had beats on it and I could make bass lines. Or I would even use instrumentals like people's side B. In fact, the first song I ever wrote was the B side of a CNC music factory, like dance single, but it had all the beats. It had everything I needed and it was instrumental. So I wrote a rap and a chorus and then recorded my voice into another tape deck onto this cassette and I had my first track. It's incredible. Do you still have that? Tell me you do. No. I wish I did. I hope one day I find it in a box of cassette tapes at my parents, but I have no idea where that is. But when I discovered the guitar, I thought, oh, this is mobile. And the way that Annie was showing me, and even Dave, it's like, you can play the drums. You can make beats with a guitar. You can get a rhythm going and that was real. That was enlightening to me. So I could play some piano on my left hand and play some drums on my right hand and put them together and you're playing guitar. Yeah. And I had this, I called it maybe a parlor trick where I could just make something up. I could, as long as I had one or two chords, I could make up a song about whatever is in front of me. And my friends would place an object like a candle or a can of soda in front of me and say, make up a song about this. Okay. Now make up a song about this. And I would. I would just keep inventing songs. And to me, it was just freestyle improvisation. It suddenly occurred to me that, oh, this is a power. This is a little bit of a superpower because not only am I making up lyrics and words about this object, I'm holding their attention. And that is performance. Yeah. So it clicked that, oh, this might be something I can actually pursue. This isn't just a hobby. And prior to that, my wheels were spinning about, I want to be a singer. I'm going to be a musical theater. Am I going to work at a theme park or cruise ship? Am I going to be in a band? But once I realized I could put an instrument together with improvisation and hold an audience's attention, I thought, this is fun. And if performing original music is a job, that's the job I want to have. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Before we jump too far from "Aunny," can we get a song for the mixtape? What's a good "Aunny" song that everyone should hear? Hmm. Well, I mean, "Little Plastic Castle" is one of my favorite records. So "Little Plastic Castle" would be a great choice. She has this beautiful way. almost in every song of like painting a picture of what life is and how dark it is and how we can make it more beautiful. And so that album specifically for me was huge. Yeah, what do you love about that song? At the time, you know, I think the lyric is in a coffee shop in a city which is every coffee shop in every city. I felt like she was looking over my shoulder, you know, where I was at the time was going to coffee shops and filling my journal with ideas and drivel and just in poetry and working on my writing craft. And Annie was already there, you know, and she would describe the world I was living in or the kind of life I wanted to live. And she helped me become the observer. And her songs are so rich with detail that, you know, if I'm listening to it and I'm driving around, life becomes rich with detail. You know, that's what makes music. That's how it enhances our lives and becomes a soundtracks to our lives because suddenly the songwriter is describing everything around you. And Annie has a great way of doing that. Yeah, all right. Let's go back to soul coughing. Give me a song from soul coughing that someone who's not initiated with that yet would be starting their rabbit hole. Wow. Well, I would start with the album Ruby Vroom. Okay. Screenwriter's blues. It is not so sing song melodic, but it is epic soul coughing. Yeah. I believe he sounds like a radio distraki in that song. It's 5 a.m. and you were listening to Lost Angeles. Again, it's a song of observing and where I was in the mid 90s. I was moving to New York City. I was traveling to California. I was on little backpacker adventures and soul coughing's music. Sings. I feel like for the lost who are looking to be found. I like that. Got a song you believe in? Enter it in the American songwriter song contest. Every entry is reviewed by real pros, artists, songwriters, and industry leaders who know a great song when they hear one. And if you win, you can walk away with killer gear, exposure, cash, and opportunities that can push your career forward. Submit today at americansongwriter.com. How's your process changed over the course of your career? Or has it changed? I don't think it has changed. I've gotten better about practicing songwriting. When I first started, the process was I need songs. Songs to put on my live show, and then that evolved into I Need Songs for my first album. Then when you get to your second album, you've exhausted all of your resources, and you're basically starting from scratch to make your second album on a. for a label, and that's really hard. And I didn't have a practice of songwriting. Trying to make your second album, I'm writing from hotels and airports, and to me the album sounds like that. And then after that, I learned I need to have a regular practice. I need to be always writing songs, collecting songs, building up an archive so that when it is time to make an album, I've got a lot of songs to choose from. And so starting around 2006, after I made my second album, I joined a songwriting club, which I'm still in today. I'm going on 20 years in this group, where every week we're given a prompt, and we write a song around that prompt, which has allowed me to end to write minimum 52 songs a year. But it's usually more than that because there's other things going on in your life. So I've had a songwriting practice. That's the biggest thing that's changed since album 1 to what I've been doing and where I'm at now, is I'm more devoted to the practice. So that way, I mean, really, it's gotten to the point where I just need it. I look forward to it. I get this excitement about what's this week's song going to be, that I get to add to Jack Temption calls it K Jack. It's this favorite radio station that he listens to in the car. It's all his music. He writes a new song and he can't wait to play it in the car. I look forward to that. What's going to be the song I write this week that's going to land on my car radio when I go for a drive? I didn't have that early on. It was a different want and a need. Now it's out of pleasure. It's out of passion. And I'm not no longer on a major label as well. So I'm also writing without a committee. And I love that too. I love my major label years. I did six albums at Atlantic. And it would be frustrating when I would submit, say, 30 songs and no one would reply or say, "What else you got?" It would break my heart. But it always sent me back to try again and write a better song. I think it made me a better songwriter having had that committee to challenge me and push me in my efforts to make commercial music. But since 2019, I've not had that. And I've been free to create and make anything I want, which is where I'm at today, which I love. What's the song of yours that benefited from that committee, benefited from turning it in and having to go back to the drawing board? Is there a song that really represents that time for you that you know only came from having to get back out and do it again? Probably, I'll say the remedy. I'll have to go way back because that was probably the first time, that was my first single ever. And I was afraid to do it. The song had begun as rap versus in a coffee shop that I would sprinkle into other songs like The Dream Life of Ren McNally. And so I had these verses that were potent, that were true. And then I took those verses into a songwriting session with The Matrix, Lauren Christie, who's fabulous, Graham Edwards and Scott Spock. And I played them my verses. And very, very quickly, we did some dialogue. We talked about what they were about. They were about my friend Charlie, who had been going through cancer and beating it in his mantra, being, "I won't worry my life away." Now that wasn't included in the lyrics, but that was the dialogue we were having. And so they came through very quickly with the chorus idea of just saying those words, "I won't worry my life away." And the way it was all put together made me very, very nervous. And I thought, "Well, this is something special for my friend. I don't want to just exploit it and turn it into this different kind of song." And I'd never performed a song like that before. And I said, basically said, "No, thank you to the label." And they kept pushing and saying, "You know, there's something to this. I think we should try this again." And I would say, "No, thank you." And they would say, "Please go back and try it again. Make a new demo. Maybe it's the demo you don't like. Let's make a new demo." And they kept pushing me back to try it. And then I was kind of forced to drink my own medicine and really listen to the words and say, "Okay, well, I won't worry my life away. Let's lean into this and see what's there." And I let it happen. And of course, it connects. But it doesn't just connect with listeners. It connects with people who are surviving cancer or who have people going through it. And it was the first time that I got to experience the power of positive language and how music can directly serve. So it turned out to be a really positive experience. And it's a song that I still play today. And I have many songs in my catalog that I don't play today because I kind of outgrew them or the lyrics aren't in alignment with where I am or I want to be. But the remedy was definitely one that the label kept pushing me to go back and figure it out because they believed in it. And going forward, the rest of my career, I was mostly, aside from singles on album 2, which I don't really visit anymore. Everything after that, album 3, 4, 5, 6, were singles that were organic. They came from the heart. They served a purpose for me or my community. But it really helped make all the rest of the commercialism feel very easy. And I could fill the album with all kinds of songs, which was great. Even down to my last record with them, which was the album I probably submitted the most songs were probably well over 150 songs. And it took four years to get that album made. It was no wasted effort. Even though they didn't respond to every song, I was able to write that many songs and co-write a lot of songs. And so meet a lot of great people and learn from other songwriters what the process is like. So even though the label said go back and try again, they basically just sent me to college for four years to learn songwriting. And then when my deal was up, I was free to just keep making music and I made a reggae album and then I made another album with Raining Jane and Martin Tarefe, which was my last record. And all of that, I was really happy to be able to do this. was really from the, this built up energy I had of wanting to write and share music, but that was being slowed down through the major label process. So after that in 2020, I just exploded with energy and creativity and a wealth of material that I'd been collecting. Is there a song from the prompt exercise that is one that we would know and be excited about? Mani, so many. That's so cool. Yeah. Is this Bob's thing? It is. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. He doesn't give out invitations to just anyone, Jason. I'm aware of that, but I've never wanted to be kicked out of the group. I felt so honored to have been invited. I heard about the song club, probably in the early 2000s when I was in the coffee shop days. I know that Steve Poltz was on the road with Bob Schneider and they would play this game where they would give each other a prompt and everyone have a night to write the song and whoever wrote the best song, they'd perform it in the show the next day. And to me, that was just like so scary, but so inspiring. Yeah. And in 2006, I met Bob at a show and probably shortly after he sent me an email or asked me if I wanted to do it. And I was like, oh my gosh. I heard of this. And I don't want to let him down and I don't want to let me down and I don't want to get kicked out. So I've been playing ever since. And what really hit it home for me was the first album that I was making at that time was we sing We Dance We Steal Things, which came out in 2008. It's 12 tracks and six of those tracks are song prompt songs. Beautiful, nice, lucky. The dynamo, volition, butterfly, yeah, six songs of that album were the result of the song game. And having a game is different than having a committee or an A and R person. It's a game. So you want to make the other songwriters laugh, you want to make yourself laugh. Sometimes you just want to get through the week or sometimes you just need to pour your heart into something and you've at least got this one word or group of words that is a key to getting into something. You know, parameters are helpful. Like if I don't have a prompt, I have no idea what to write about. I have to sort of generate my own prompt. But if you have a prompt, at least you've got, like I said, a key to get in the room. Parameters like get it done in three minutes or parameters like we're going to use the key of this or, you know, I think parameters are very helpful because they start to put you in. They just start to give you some structure. If you if you don't have anything yet, you know, they can they can guide you. Yeah. What was the prompt that started lucky? The prompt was me talking to you. It was actually a prompt that I had submitted. I occasionally bobble say give me some prompts and I'll send them three, five, ten phrases. And me talking to you was was a caption on a photograph that a friend had sent me and they were on the phone. And the caption on the photograph was me talking to you. So it was a picture of that person talking on the phone to me. And I just thought it was so sweet. So I submitted as a prompt and Bob said, let's do that one. So the first thing I sit down and play is do you hear me talking to you and just kind of inventing this little story as if it's a long distance relationship. And that was the song idea I sent to Colby Collet to see if she'd want to do a duet with me. And she did an impeccable perfect job of, you know, when you pass the ball to another songwriter or a collab partner who then just takes it exactly where it needs to go. Yeah, it's awesome. If we were making this mixtape, what's a song that's super important to you that we have not talked about yet? It's probably in the Willie Nelson songbook, whether it's crazy or Hello walls or or or more recent like it's all gone to pot. Yeah. The Willie song book has so many just moving songs like the the Willie and family live from 76 77 78 something around there. High speed super medley of amazing songs that make you last songs that make you feel something songs that rock the house. You know, probably his biggest album might be Star Dust. I'm not sure, but I listen to that record. I know it's a record of covers. It's like maybe Cole Porter, Irving Berlin songs. Maybe I'm not sure who all the songwriters are on that jazz standards record of Star Dust, but Willie Nelson's take on that is just huge. And he's a big influence too on how I've kind of landed on this covers album as well because he's put out 150 plus records and he's written something on all of them just about, but he'll also lean into you know this huge library of songs written by songwriters from all over the world to fill in the rest of the song titles on his records, which I think is a really beautiful beautiful thing to do. Yeah. Can we talk about the new record? That's a good pivot. Is this something that couldn't have happened 10 years ago? Is this just like a freedom thing too? Like this is what I want to do. Take us through the process. We've been deciding to do this. Yeah. Well, you know, actually it, I first made this record in 2007 for my grandmother. Every time I made music, she'd say, "Is it gospel?" And I'd have to explain and she'd listen to it and she'd say, "Okay." You know, she wouldn't, she's like, "I don't understand it." And then she'd say, "When you go make me a gospel album?" So one year for Christmas, 2007, I came home and I made this gospel album in five days. One of my good buddies here in San Diego is Andy Powers, who's now gone on to be the chief designer over at Taylor Guitars. But back in 2007, he was making guitars in Nuclele and Mandelins out of his garage here in Oceanside and we'd go surfing and talk about music. And I said, "Hey, I want to do these old gospel and inspirational tunes for my grandma. Can you come over and play some stringed instruments?" So he brought pedal steel and dobro and banjo and mandolin and he did all kinds of beautiful picking on this record. And it was kind of a Christmas gift for my grandma and for his parents as well, who were champions of music in our lives, Chuck Powers. And it was beloved by my family. We've had it in our family for now almost 20 years. And also my friends at the record label loved it. But they didn't want to consider it a Jason Mirage record. They said, "We'd love to share this, but it's not going to count on my contract." So my manager and I were like, "Well, that doesn't make any sense." And I didn't really know how to explain it either. I was like, "This is for my family. This is for my grandmother. This is private. This music I love, this music she loves. But it's I think it would break the system if I put it out. But to where we are today, I'm in a position where I can share anything I want. And I had the encouragement of friends and family, you know, who've loved this album. They said, "You know, you should really share this record." And so I created a little record label called "Interrebang," which is the punctuation exclamation point and question marks side by side, which I think stands for, "We love it. What is it?" It doesn't matter what it is if you love it at first. And so I put out reggae and then I did another pop album. And then I wanted to include this gospel album in this new paradigm, I guess. And I did include two original songs on it that are in alignment with the songs of comfort and faith. I put in a couple of originals, but it is a album made in earnest and in sincerity for my grandmother back in 2007 and kind of honored actually to be able to share it now and proudly share it as well. I really love it. I thought it was great. So hold on, everything on that record was done in 2007 or you revisited it and these two new songs. Two new songs, "Peach Pie," and when we die, we're recorded last year. And they were actually going to be on what I thought I was making something else. And then when the idea came up to share grandma's gospel, I said, "Well, I've got eight songs on that." Grandma's gospel was originally 11, 12 songs for grandma. And then I took a few off of there that were, I just felt like I could sit off to the side. But so that left some gaps in grandma's gospel. And I said, "Well, I've got these other songs that I recorded last year that I feel are in alignment that my grandma would have loved." So I did put those into the playlist. Yeah. That's cool. If that's where you're at right now, I'm stoked about what's coming because that's my world, man. Like that where you're living in right now with those two songs. Yeah. That's awesome. Thanks so much. I've probably got a half an album in the works that is probably my most Americana effort. I use that in quotes just because it's so largely acoustic and story. based kind of going back to less pop, more just classic singer songwriter stuff. - Cool. - When you think about classic singer songwriters, how are you thinking of? - I think I think of like Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, Jim Croci, Kat Stevens, where you know, you're gonna get brought in by the narrative. More so than the catchy hooks and all the other things going on. - Awesome. Jason Moraz, it's good to see you. - Awesome. Thanks so much, Dean. - All right, take care, man. - Bye-bye. - That song, diving, follow the show so you don't miss future guests. You can also check out the companion playlist on Spotify to dive deeper into the songs we talked about here. Just search Spotify for song diving mix tape. Thanks for listening. (upbeat music)