Some Friendships Need to Go with Issa Rae [From the Archives]

Like, the crisis would require an emergency session. Oh, my God. Like, somebody's on a train. Yeah, flying. You know, there's movement. And you're not going to deal with a crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis. My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is, took off work. That is a script. That is something that you could write on television. Playing and doing a text, like, you know, she's not going to be good. Like, she doesn't need this right now, you know? Right, right. You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn. Yeah. Not a crisis. They'll be like, damn. Honestly, not a crisis. Sorry. Send a dog of OGs. Or Jews. I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog? Okay. We are bad. Hey, well, hi again, you. It's you again. Oh, I like your, is that pink? It's, my wife called it coral, but it could be pink. Yeah, it is coral. And it's a little pleated. Well, this is, this is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing. Watch out now. And that little collar. Okay, I see you, Craig Robinson. I am, I'm thrilled that you like my clothes. Yeah, nice. See, you guys. It's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space. You know, you don't even need much closet space, but you're stepping out. You're stepping out. Thank you. What's new and exciting? Well, I got to tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in, and since you won't be able to drive one since you don't drive. I might, no, no, I'm starting to drive. Really? Yeah, I can drive. How's that? How, how's the Secret Service letting you drive? Well, it's a secret. You, you could take me for a spin. They'll let me take you for a spin? Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee and the boys wanted me to pick them up from school? And we did. And you tooled up in a motorcade to their school? In a motorcade, in the pickup line. They were just like, niche. I was like, yeah, yeah. Four cars deep in the pickup line. That was so much fun. I'm sure that their friends are like, what? What the heck? Oh, and then then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, me. I'm like, get in and don't touch the guns. I do remember that. No, oh my goodness. But, um, so we're talking about friendship today. Yeah. And, and people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born. Yep. Cause it couldn't happen before then. Nope. Wouldn't have been here. Wouldn't have happened before then. But, um, my, my first question to you is how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little? Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time. Although as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. They did. Right. Um, and two of my girl girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki. Yes. Um, and they had a little sister, um, uh, Gina, but, uh, they came to the funeral and it was funny. We got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't, I hadn't missed a minute with them. Um, but so we vowed to keep, to get, to keep in touch. But outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least almost at least one good friend or more. Um, from every aspect of my life. Okay. So what I found is like one of, uh, you know, my best friend, roommate who, you know, Angela from Princeton, she was my roommate. She's my girl. I always talk to her from law school. My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day. Um, she's in DC, you know, and then they're my mom friends because as I got married, but then even before then that was Pam. She was more my professional friend. Uh, when I was, when, when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms and you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the white house, you know, one of the things we were like, no new friends, this it. And I was like, ah, you know, I did say that you were kind of joking, but it was important for me in the normalcy of my life. To be able to, to, or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I, I, I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends. Right. And, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends and falling out of friendship with, with, with good friends. And, um, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, see guys. Guys are a little different guys are their friendships are more transactional, right? What do you mean by that? Well, well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school, where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character, most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture. It's a marketing event. You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't want to go. So you, all right, I'm going to take three friends. Would you just make a friend? It's like, okay, let's be friends. Come to the game with me. But guys do that. Guys would. That's why y'all are broken. We are not broken, but, but we, we, we don't go as deep. Yeah. So if something happens, we're not as hurt. Is that, are you, does that mean y'all scared? It's just a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could talk to every week and the relationship is mostly the same. That's because y'all don't talk about nothing. Well, we don't, you're right about that. Cause it's hard to go deep. You know, when we go deep is when it's too late death bed. It's like, or, you know, I wish I had asked him about his family. We're getting a divorce. It's already. And then there's some tragedy. It's like, why didn't you say anything? I didn't say anything. Cause I didn't want to burden you. And I was, I was going through it myself. But today's show, we're going to talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends. And we are a company. We do have company. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this company, because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom com ish type shows. And my wife said, you got to watch this insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. She said, you got to watch it. It's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And, and, and she said, you're, you're going to like it. I said, I'm not going to like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back because she was like on episode four. I was, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one. And then I watched the third and the fourth. Cause I was only going to watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the. The restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a, and a community folk, you know, kind of like y'all just in the community, doing stuff for black folks, giving it back, giving it back. And just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae, Issa Rae, I'm just meeting her for the first time. Welcome to the table. Thank you so much. I was just nodding and back there. I had so many times. I wanted to jump in. Well, what's been going on? How are you? I'm doing really well. I'm, I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant, um, that is called Somerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about. What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant, is that a dream or was it circumstantial? You know, it's, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, um, I'd be a bartender or a waitress. Yes. Okay. Well, there you go. I like, I like the food environment. I love serving. I love hosting. And there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even play like doing play dates with my brother and my little brother, our play dates would be. Restaurant. Restaurant. Yes. And I would be the boss. Yeah. And I would be the host. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. bossy restaurant owner. - Sounds familiar. Also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday. And it was like the 30-something birthday. You were Capricorn, too. I'm a Capricorn. Like me, 17. Yes, you already know. 12th over here. That's why we bossy. Yeah, I know. I don't like to admit it. I don't want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner. And we were just like, let's go. Like, we're trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge. And have a good time. It was so hard. We went to like so many different spots. And it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just, and it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from L.A. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story where I was like, I want that in my neighborhood. Man, doing it with your little baby boss self. Were you going to say something? I wanted to find out. Go ahead. Because we talk about friendships. And we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, you know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it? You know, have you become more cautious? Have you, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently? Or felt like you needed to think about friendships differently given your, you know, your ascent and who you've become? I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school because I'm from L.A. And there is a sense of this feeling like my job. Like I don't, I didn't come, I didn't move here to become myself. Yeah. I was already here and I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joey Sajope. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me. And the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've had, I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result. Some as a result of working together. As we both ascended. Some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position, the time. Like I have a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever. But she went through two major milestones, kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend. And I didn't know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was, that was actually strike two, I think on my part for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college. And that was, she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to like truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started like rising in my own career. And I felt like I was like, I'm not going to be there for her. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart and we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups because it wasn't acknowledged in that way. But I haven't had any like, you're famous, I'm using you type things. Well, that's a perfect segue for. For our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So, Natalie, are you ready to. Read us. Read us the letter? Let's do it. All right. Yes. Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless. Like both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. And when it came to my dates. And when it came to dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently, though, Kristen lost a close family member. And when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me. She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love. And I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva. That took so many turns. Can I just say, before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing. You know, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are, we go there. We are, you know, we, and we struggle. We spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women more so, we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just going to throw a ball. You know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know why, how. Tell me more. What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much. Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last, but because of that, you don't end it without the hurt, you know. It is complicated. Yeah, there's a piece of you that you're giving so many of, I mean, so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with anyone. That I've, as a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means, like, you mean a lot to me. And that I see a future with you. And automatically, if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable. Or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with. And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship. But it still felt like she was, in any version. I don't know, I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman, is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways. Friends, relationships, career goals, big life anxieties, we get into all of it on this show. It's become a kind of therapy for me. But just to be clear, I am a. I am a firm believer in actual therapy as well. Therapy isn't only for moments of crisis. It's for anyone who wants more support, clarity, or tools for navigating whatever life throws at them. Grow Therapy can connect you with thousands of licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, including nights and weekends. You can search for what matters to you, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and get started. 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Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's always present. Right, right, right. Someone in every relationship is given a little more, given less, you know. Some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed, and all of us are. That is, has never been a problem for me. Like, the complicated nature of my friends, right? When I felt most, almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table, giving, sharing, and you weren't. You were at the table. But it's sort of like, like, it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know. I didn't know what he was going through. There probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I felt emotionally robbed. Because it was like, you weren't telling me. You weren't telling me. And, you know, and maybe it's because you didn't trust me. You didn't trust yourself. See, she's still hot about it. Can you tell? But I'm just using it as an example in the table of, for me, at least, that becomes more important. You know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust. And, you know, when you, and I let people in. So when I let people in there, you're in. Yep. You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend, didn't feel like she was fully there. Or maybe she wasn't. Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship. Why? You really say, what's your problem? Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely going to be where everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't, isn't life always out of balance? Yeah, I think I, I said, I don't disagree with that. But there is a, if, if you're, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like tickets to the games, I'm always the one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not, like that's still, there's an imbalance. Like I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not going to show up for me in the same way that I show up for you. Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours. Yeah. I mean, that, that, that's a problem. You know, if I look, I don't mind hosting. I don't mind being, because oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one, I have the resources. I've got the, you know, I have more of the special, like, oh, guess what we can do. And there, there's a natural imbalance, but it's like you, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner, or whatever, even if it's just pizza. I know your effort is, yes. Even if it's just pizza, like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me. This means a lot, you know, and I'm fine. I will meet you where you're at because I know that this is your love language, but you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort or that you, you don't rank as high on their, on their list of friends. So what's your version of that? How is it balanced in, in friendship and. You know, I guess with me and my friends, because I like you, I don't want to generalize. As long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight. Do you use tickets? That tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is, one thing, or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency. Yeah, I agree. That's equivalency to me. What, but I, but what I, I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. You're to your point, Isa, my friends and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're, we're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep. And like you were saying, how you're, you're, it's sociology for women. It's not, it's carpentry for men. You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's, I didn't want to say gym, but it's, we, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep. To what extent? So like, even if I'm not getting in your business, like for the divorce of it, right? We are getting in his business. So for the divorce, Two Capricorns. I told, Let's do it. We in your business. I told, like, I tell her everything. Okay. But the, what she left out, the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it. Oh, interesting. So I was trying to save everybody this relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep. You did go deep with it. Yeah. So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through. Or did you, did you bring up, we're having problems and let's talk about, or did you wait until. We, I, like I said, at the outset, I waited until. So that y'all, you didn't go deep. But, but no, see now, see, there's no timing to it. I mean, but there is, so it was deep for me. It was deep for me, irrespective of the time. Just the mere fact that you told somebody the obvious. You told your friends that it happened. That it happened. That it's happening. That it's happening, not that he. When you were going through it, right, and it was hard, who did you talk to? I talked to two really good friends of mine, and we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading. And we'd have cigars and margaritas, and it was three of us, and we had one chair in the middle. So it was whoever, and we called it the chair of angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the chair of angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the chair of angst for like seven months because I was going through this. And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family. I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want. If I could somehow kick-save this thing, then I could tell them after the fact. Yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family, and if I. He's right about that? Is he right? It's sort of right. We would have been. But, you know, you do what your family needs at the time, you know? There's no way we wouldn't have gone through a recovery. Of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great, and now everything is over. That's how we found out. That's how they found out. They found out. So it was like, what? How did, you know. It's sort of the sharpness of it. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan. But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused. Because it sounded like you did to them what you did to. No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep. Okay, well that. But that's, you know. It's not like a friendship is. There's always something to dig into. But I find that in my friends, we always go in deep. Because we talk about everything, and there's just. There are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to, like, oh, this happened to me, and this is how I was affected by it. And there's just. And nothing is off limits, and that's the beauty of it, is just you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were this safe space. And I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this. To Eva. And it was like hit or miss. I'm not even sure. I don't even know if I like you, girl. I think you're cool, but, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we good or not? And now something happened that's tragic, and I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was. Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend, right? I mean, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friends she is close with in real time. If she does have those, and, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey. A hundred percent, yes. This is what happened to me. Am I messing up here? Am I wrong, right? And the crew would be, they would dissect it. They would be IMO. In real time, you know, and I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know. Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, you're right. You're right. I wasn't, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the, to her friend. I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check-in every day type of person. I'm a very much, when I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been, I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me, but it's not a natural instinct. And so with this, I understand like Eva being like, this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I can't, I'm not going to be the same type of giving friend that you are to me, but I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. Um, and so that is, that's, that would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate. I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be. That's a, that's a pronouncement there. It's, it's true. And it's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you. Right. And that's fair. But that's also part of friendship, right? Because, you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something, you know, or she's busy or, you know. And that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself, flaws and all. The inconsiderate or the, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not going to be the one to call because she just doesn't do that. You know, I'm not a great, you know, I don't, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more. For the same. Like I'm the one that's like, okay, let's go. Let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And that was because of eight years also. I mean, you, you know, it's hard. It was hard to reach me for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. And in order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate. Yeah. And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume I don't want to bother you. Yeah, same. You know, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends. Who went through stuff. And I'm like, why didn't you didn't tell me? No, I didn't want to bother you. And I, so that means I often have to bend over even more. Completely. To, to check in. So people know that when things are tough, do not not call me. Yeah. Because I may not be able to do anything. Because now I'm mad. Right. It's like, now I'm mad at you for that. And that happened like 50 years ago. I don't care that you're going through it. I'm mad at you. Right. Right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off. No, no, no. That was great. I, I, I appreciate that. And, and I also appreciate now you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't. It wouldn't have lasted. It would. You know, Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't, we don't say that. No, absolutely not. Yeah. No, you don't. You know what amazes me? The amount of energy people have for their dogs. You can be at a family gathering and within five minutes, everyone's pulling out pictures, sharing stories and comparing notes. My family is definitely guilty of that. We're all pet lovers across the board. So we can appreciate it when a brand can match our level of intensity. Ollie is a dog food and wellness brand that is done with the one size fits all approach. Ollie's recipes are made with real ingredients created by chefs and informed by vet nutritionists. What I really like is that everything starts with your dog and their specific needs. When you sign up, Ollie builds a personalized meal plan with ingredients that support better digestion, energy, skin health, and more. Even better, Ollie offers health tracking in their app so you can keep up with your pup's health and see the difference the food is making in their life. Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com slash IMO. Tell them all about your dog and use code IMO to get 70% off your welcome. When you subscribe today, plus it's risk-free with their obsession guarantee. That's O-L-L-I-E dot com slash I-M-O and enter code I-M-O to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. Can I ask you a question about the chair of angst? Yes. Did they? Did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting? space like i'm getting was it an inquiry yeah it was it was all of the above because sometimes the person who was in the chair of angst just needed to vent and in the venting the other two would ask questions to find out okay is this really what's going on or is there anything we can do or what predicated this and it was just it was a give and take it wasn't just a venting session but it was at least for me it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that you know that were deep and private that i didn't i wasn't ready to share with the the whole world that's dope but y'all had to make a whole construct with that that's dope but y'all had to make a whole construct with cigars and margaritas and whatnot no more questions no more questions no more questions no more problems that's it well but see and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me your sister we we don't let it go they don't let it go you you were never out of the chair because now i'm calling you and going okay what happened what happened here so not only do i have a sister i have a wife and which has helped me communicate right because i say all the time our relationship relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter who is now 28 i'm a better communicator not just with women but in general because i i get it i get it there are times when my wife wants to talk to me and i don't want to talk but i have to be intentional about she needs this and with my friends i never well if i need it i will go get it but with my friends it's we we never get there like that so a friend has never disappointed you because you don't have expectations no friends have disappointed but i it doesn't injure me as deeply and and if your next question is do i approach them and say hey you really disappointed me i have and i think that's why we keep our friendship and have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they've approached you and said hey you really you and said, hey, you just show up in this way and I'm upset. I have not. Have you ended a friendship? At the risk of sounding cocky, I have not. Oh, because you're a good friend. I keep getting this wrong. Because you're a good friend. I hope that I am. You seem like you're a good friend. No. It is. You have a sister. You have to be a good friend. But it doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface. But I think you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Keep them around? You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves. Yeah. So this is a really good question. And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. You know, after a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends. And they're going to be my friends. And new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time who are friends, the shift to the right. And they don't. They don't make the shift to the right. We just don't communicate as much. I call that the slow ghost. She does. She calls it the slow ghost. It doesn't. It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy. You just sort of, you know, let it die a natural quiet death. And which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this. Which is that I don't mind being ghosted. Me neither. I don't mind that. If it didn't matter. Yeah. If it didn't matter, it didn't matter. Surface. But let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost. And then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'm going to be in town. Want to go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure. And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate. I'll forgive you. Just look at the guys in here all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying for me not to get in trouble. No, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I had too many people I messed with. Because there's nothing worse than like, like having, sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about. And then you have to like make plans together. If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything. And it's fine. But even with your friends, I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with, inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you become who you're supposed to be, right? There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never happened. Never crossed your mind. The guys who, like, say, grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with. And they've never, since grammar school? Since high school. First day of high school. Okay. Okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought? No, we've fought. Yeah. But it's, it's old. It's not an emotional fight? There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, they're just. There's not a lot going on. There's no emotional fight. You know? You're talking about, I thought you were talking about, like, a fight. No, and that's not, like, guys to me, y'all will be like, like, y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta. That's it. And we're good for life. Let's go have a beer. Yeah. And no, if I, if I physically fight one of my female friends, it's over. Well, you all don't physically fight. No, but in. But I get it. I get it. But the emotional fights allow you to get closer. Or, you know, decide this isn't the right relationship. I think it goes back to the level, you know, and again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my brother, it's like, you know, your, your friends sort of hover around the surface and it's real meaningful friendships, but they, they're, they're, they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women. Until there is a crisis. Then we go deep. Yeah. Yeah. You know. It's, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Go straight to death. You know, but I mean, because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. It's got to be like a thing that happens. It could be something going on with their kids or it could be a divorce or it could be, you know, a car accident. Something super dire. Yeah. A crisis. But it's not. And a crisis for women is just like. Every day. Don't do us like that. You know. Oh man, I'm going to get it when I get home. I'll give you an example because my husband doesn't fully understand it. And he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends, meaningful. But when I'm, when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you've got to stay for two days because it's going to take us. So much time to come to. Two days to check up. Right. And we're not planning anything. We're going to sit right here. And we will be here. Too many rules. So I've got. No, but it's not even a rule. It's just. This is kicking it. This is what we do. And this is what it's going to take. You've got to stay for two days. So I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack. Oh, heaven. Love, love, all that. We're sitting, we sit on a couch. We trans, there's something in front of us, tea, crackers, move to wine, you know. But we get up at 10 a.m. and we start the check-in. Oh, that sounds beautiful. And it begins with. First of all, girl, how are you? You know, tell me about you now. And that's an hour. Just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in. Right. Hour two is like, OK, what about work? And tell me about. Because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were going to let go? What happened with that girl? She's still there. Oh, man. What does she do next? And then you've got to give an example of what she did. Now, now it's lunchtime. Right. On day one. Now, Barack has come in. He's come out. And he's like, y'all still talking? He'll. He'll sit down for five minutes. Be like, how are the boys? And then he gets up and leaves. You just interrupted the time, you know. And then it's three o'clock and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid. Oh, my gosh. I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's 48 hours. Because each kid has, you know, we know the issues. And the things we've, you know, now we're at dinner on day one. Right. So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how, what are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not, we're just scratching the surface. And do you know that? It's so, oh my, it feels so good after they leave. It's just like, there's no better feeling than like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything. I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Oh, we saved some stories. Like, I can't tell, like, there's friendship. There's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I want to be mad at someone, and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Because she's never going to, she's never going to tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we, she's next, you know, like, yeah. And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need, I need to know. The truth. Yes, I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it and they're going to give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like going to listen and I can grab. But everybody has a function in some way and they're just, it's just, it's cathartic. Yeah. It's so, it's so beautiful. And that's why I'm just, I don't understand. And the flip side of my husband, right? Because he golfs. And golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what? You were golfing all day. And it never came up. You never asked about our God's son. For example, you're with his father. How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart? Talking about, you know, and I'm like, literally nothing. You don't have no information. And that's the difference. Because you'll be with each other all day, looking directly away from each other at a ball. Right. Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in. In towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, their tears. It's like, and that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are going to be hurt when you break up or somebody's going to get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of intimacy. I maintain that the chair of angst with me, Jimmy, and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long. Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner. Because you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right? Mm-hmm. It does. It takes a crisis to get it going. This is also why women live longer. Thank them, man. Because we're getting a lot of that out. We're not, right. And not to take it there, but y'all keep it in here. We do. Like the crisis would require an emergency. Oh, my God. Like somebody's on a train. Yeah. Flying. Yeah. I was like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis. Like this is, took off work. That is a script. I'm sure that because that's like, it needs planning, doing a text. Like, you know, she's not going to be good. Like she's, she doesn't need this right now. You know? Right. Right. You know so. Yeah. That's it. Not a crisis. Sorry. Send a dog emoji. Or dude, I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah. What? Okay. We are, we are, we are bad. That is. One of my friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express. Don't you have a cat? Guys in text don't know how to express the emotions. So we'll use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt. Dang fire emoji, ghost emoji, just don't have the language for it. That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are, but I'm 60. Trying to give you something. So I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. Yeah. So why do we have emotion? Oh, yeah. Oh, geez. They, they're literal. It's like hot dog. Hot dog. I'm hungry. I want lunch. Fire is like. I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously. Oh, yeah. I forgot about Eva. No, we almost. Well, she lost the frame. I know. Well, is it possible to set boundaries? For sure. In a friendship that's unbalanced? That's why I'm like, you have to be honest. Yeah. About like, hey, girl, like, I'm, I have a lot on my plate and I'm, that's hard to say. Yeah. Because I was, yeah, I was going to say, like, I just want to be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, because I have been, I feel like I give you more energy than I have just been like, I blamed it on work. I blamed it on I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't want to devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to. To pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me because you, you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are hired to your friends that like, do get your time and energy that you do consider those people or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. And that's a whole different situation. But I don't know. I don't, I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you that, that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them. So, yeah, it's, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you want to be? How do you, how do you want to show up? You know, and, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about. Who we are, what we want and, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out. Like I'm, I'm, I understand you before I understand me. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without, without opening themselves up because that's hard, you know, and maybe what I would say to Eva is maybe it's time for her. To just, she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship? And how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and it's somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself. And make some friends with some guys. Right. Or, or, you know, be okay, then understand that there will be times and then that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not, you hurt my feelings and it's over. Right. And not take it to heart. If that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you got to take stock about how you want to, how you need to show up for people. And what's, what's an example of that? How showing up? Is that just, I hear, I hear communication. I get that, but understanding who your friend is and what they need, like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship. Sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day. Like you do for your partner, your life partner, but you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then, and it sounds like Eva may not have. Shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta, you know, you, you, you, you're gonna have to give people what they need to get at some point to get what you need. It's this, it's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, um, is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I, I, I value people's honest emotional vulnerability that, that means a lot to me. But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition that maybe you're also not compatible. Cause some of it, some, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive and they're instinctual. Like you, you don't have, you don't have to try. Um, you, you are the end to the Yang. You're, you fit in like puzzle pieces and then they're, they're, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about it. You can talk about it comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're, you're offending. And it, this feels like very much like Eva had to try too hard and be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself, but the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had that have, I've silently ghosted or that have silently ghosted me. It just, it was hard to manage. Like there were, There was always something and it felt uncomfortable. yeah being honest with yourself about that is is crucial and how old is eva again yeah that i was wondering that too 32 32 oh yeah this is when people start falling off yeah your 30s is like when it whittles down yeah yeah who's gonna be there and does she have kids no and it's gonna whittle even more you know if she chooses to partner and have kids it changes anyway i think that's also what i would say to eva it's like this is life yeah you know and like she said in her letter friends aren't family you know and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not you know um friends will there there are seasons for friends um and who knows in their 40s or 50s they may reconnect you know so this is perfect because i'm thinking back to eva one of the things i would like eva to do is i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the family and i would like to be a part of the