Some Dave's You Know

Welcome to the Voices in Recovery Podcast, recorded within Treaty 7, the traditional lands of the Blackfoot Confederacy, which includes Sixika, the Bukhani, and the Kainai First Nations. The Sittuna First Nation and the Stony Nakoda, which includes Ginny Geet, Bears Pa, and Good Stony First Nations. We acknowledge those with status, non-status, Inuit, and Mati that now call these lands their home. Please be aware that Voices in Recovery does discuss a variety of topics, some of which may not be suitable for those under 18. And if you'd like to support Voices in Recovery, please head over to our Patreon page where you can pledge your support and listen to all of our episodes. We hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as we did. Hey, how's it going? I'm all right. You go by David or Dave? Either one is good for me. I've been called so many other things today that those are both very nice. Yeah. All right. Well, you're self. I typically go by Dave, but yeah, you know, it doesn't really matter. It's it. It's a real pleasure to meet you. You as well, Dave. And you know what? I love the fact that I don't know a whole lot about you because this gives me a chance just to sit back and let you tell your story. Yeah. And it probably, you know, is thinking about it. It's probably weird to not get any guidance from me on that stuff, but I kind of do it on purpose. I just because I don't want to get in the way of your story, right? So. Well, I appreciate that and I spent a lot of actually I just want to check. So this is record. Like how does this work? Is this? Is this it? This is recording. This is recording now. We're live. Yeah. Yes. I started it right away because if I don't, Darcy's not able to come on tonight because he's working. So I'm doing it. So I just started recording right away. Sounds good to me. And I actually will echo what you said. Because I thought a little bit be like while we were in contact about asking, like, what should I prepare? What are we going to talk about? And then I was like, no, you know what? This is really kind of fun because I don't really, I've listened to maybe I think three to four episodes of your podcast, yeah, which is not a whole lot, right? I have seen no more about you than you know about me. But I was like, I'm just going to go into this and this is going to be whatever it's going to be. And I'm not going to decide beforehand. So I'm on the same path. Excellent. I love that. And I just was exactly how I feel. I just want to sit back and get to know this person that we met online. And yeah. So please, Dave, take it away, tell us about yourself. And welcome. Sure. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I don't even know where to start. If it's the present or the past, maybe I would just like to share, you know? So I'm a registered psychotherapist, qualifying. Okay. Oh, excellent. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know if I would call myself an addiction specialist, but it's certainly what I do the most work in, right? Whether it be, you know, substance use disorder, more and more out of control, sexual behavior. And I do some other things too. But the purpose of saying that is, well, there's a lot, I guess, but, you know, I have a lot of clients who have asked for different resources to listen to between sessions and to educate themselves. And I was just searching for new podcasts because I am, so I am in recovery close to 11 years now, myself. Oh, congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. And while I immersed myself in podcast and literature, like in my own recovery, early and recovery, I kind of found myself lacking in, I don't listen to just that anymore. You know, and so I don't even know how I came across yours, but I did. I was looking for a Canadian one, and it was a recovery talk in, I think it was April 29th. I looked it up tonight. Oh, you stand and Steve from Stonewall recovery, right? Yeah. And David, I was, I was walking down the street listening to this thing. And I don't want to overdo it. It resonated with me in a way that, that really kind of threw me off guard a little bit in the sense that I had never heard other people say a lot of these thoughts about their experience and recovery that I've been carrying around with me for years and, and just have never found other people to relate to about my experience and the way, you guys were saying stuff that lives in my head for years and I just, I just couldn't help, but, you know, I like that's, and that's how this came about, is I just sent a message saying thank you, you know. So then to be on here, yeah, it's cool, yeah, I'm so glad. Thank you for checking us out. We have for listening. Yeah. I know for Steve and I, the recovery talk one is, I mean, it's all kind of, we try to do everything as best we can out of love, but the recovery talk one is, you know, we're sharing stuff that we thought of for a long time too. And didn't feel, didn't feel comfortable or safe wherever we were at to share. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think, I think the main thing, and I'll tell my story and this will be what it is, right? Oh, goodness. This is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. You know, then I've listened to that episode three times to be honest. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I think that the number one thing that stood out to me and was the idea that the only place that I was no longer really being my authentic self was in recovery rooms of AA, right? And, and, and feeling like I had this wonderful life and recovery outside of AA, where I do it my way and it means what it means to me. But then I, I'd come into these rooms, which is infrequent at this point in my life, but I still have an attack. I, I have a, a toe. Yeah. Oh, completely understandable. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I would kind of end up kind of putting on like a different persona and speaking in a way and about things in a, in a way that I don't really fit with how I actually think about recovery anymore or how I live my life. Yeah. And, and so, it's so, it's, to me, it's, it's a beautiful thing when someone recognizes it's okay to have more, right? Like, yeah, it's okay to do more for yourself than just one thing. And if one thing works great, that's awesome. It still doesn't mean you don't, you shouldn't do other things, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And, and, and I, I think like it really brought me back to a time in, in early recovery where I'd sit in, in a meetings and almost be brought to tears out of frustration looking around the room, just dying for somebody else who appeared to be struggling with some of the same things that I was within that space. But then being told over and over, this is the only thing that you can do to, to get better. Oh, wow. Yeah. I just got like a shutter all up and down my spine as you're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Now, on, on the other, at the same time, it is what probably did save my life, right? And then so to be kind of caught in this space of, like, I don't want to say it's captive because it's, it's not a living being. Yeah. But, but all this stuff is so in my head that it's, it's hard to leave some of it behind. And this is what I was hearing from you guys who are much further, what years wise, along in your journeys than I am. And, and actually, I mean, I hear a lot of anger when I hear you guys talk about it too. And I, I almost kind of envy that in a way. Yeah. No, I know, I appreciate that, and that's kind of where we had gotten was we're, we're no longer going to just like, uh, sizzle in our anger. We're going to like, try to figure out what is, is, uh, anger that seems appropriate. And what is anger that isn't, right? Like, and realizing that not all anger is bad as, as maybe we were taught, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and because it's this really weird feeling of being angry at the thing that did a lot of good for you. 100%. Yeah. And if, and if a person thinks there's no inner conflict or inner turmoil with those feelings, they would be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a lot of inner conflict. Yeah. And I hope I don't end up saying this for an hour. I, I, I will tell better my, I, I will tell my story as, as, as a part of this. I enjoy conversations, Dave and this is a wonderful one. So. Yeah. Yeah. Um, oh, I, so I lost my train of thought there. So I'm sorry. I know. No, that's, that's my, I listen. I've been seeing clients all day. You know what I mean? Like I, I've got like eight million things in my head here. So, yeah. Um, I, I have no problem, uh, pick, pick it a new thing to talk about, um, but it, but I, oh yeah. No, it was this feeling of like, I, I, I, so I, I hit like a 10 year sobriety anniversary last fall. And then I had a, I was like, it's a huge bunch. Thank you. Uh, of chairing, um, my sponsors, uh, 15 year, uh, date, uh, around the same time I listened to your podcast. And I was just thinking about like kind of, it really brought up a lot of things about how, how far away I really am from the program at this point, but how much the things I do in my life are almost dictated by still wanting the approval of the people that are in those rooms. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But that I don't even speak to anymore. - Yeah. (laughs) - But like you have voices in our head. - Yeah. - Yeah. Like, oh, I don't want that one guy to be right. - Yeah. - Or, I want this guy to think I'm still doing it the right way. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's incredible what we start to, how we start to do the mental gymnastics in order to process what's happening, right? Because what happens, what starts happening for some folks is how we really feel and what we really think starts to take precedence over survival, right? And I think like, because it does matter what we think and how we feel, right? And you know that, obviously, from your profession, like these things are vital for humans. - Yeah. - Yeah. And there's just some things that in certain places become, once I started to recognize that there's a lot of these very important things that are discounted in some of those places that aren't given the attention they need for folks, that's kind of where things just, it was just better for me and for everyone, really, right? To be like, you know what, good for you and keep with it if it works. That's what I keep saying to people. - Yeah, and you guys said that in that, so I don't remember which one of you said what, to be honest, right? But that was a message that you said in that episode as well. And so I, you know, I think I've been asked to speak at like an open meeting maybe twice in the last four years. Like it's still, I'm around, but that is something that I always say at the end is like, the best way to get so, the best program, sorry, the best way to do this is to find what works for you and then do that. - Yeah. - Right? It doesn't matter. - And that saves like, yeah, it saves like advice, though, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. But I think, you know, in those early days, like when you talk about like needing survival and then moving into having your own take on it in those early days, there's so much of that messaging of, you know, your best thinking got you here. - Ooh, yeah. - I used to say that all the time, too. (laughing) - That's really hard, it's really hard to hear because your best thing, you know, I used to sit there and think like, well, I do have good things in my life, I have done some, I'm not all bad. - No, of course not. - I have a drinking problem. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Anyways, maybe I'll just, I'll give the outline, and it's funny even thinking about how this would come out here 'cause I haven't listened to your episodes where people tell their story. I don't know how to do this, except in the AA framework. - And that's how this all started to be honest, Dave, was like when we first started, I was still very deep 'cause it's almost nine years now that we've been doing this. And so like I was, yeah, I was still very deep into the 12 steps at that point. - Yeah. - And literally our format was based on sharing and immediate, right, or sharing like you're doing a speaker meeting kind of thing. - Yeah. - Yeah, okay. And by the way, I have spent some time like reading your bio and stuff like that. Very, thank you for all that you do. It's fun. - Oh my goodness, well, thank you for, I mean, thank you for saying that, obviously. I'm blushing, but you can't see it 'cause I have bright light coming in my window. (laughing) - Okay, all right. - Yeah, but it's been a, I had really good, and I was very fortunate to have been privileged with really good teachers, right? Like I definitely haven't survived on my own. There's just no doubt about it. And that's even long before I sobered up, right? Like it was people helping me, just like I always wanted to be of use to people, right? And now we start looking at it like it's different. We're not just helping people. We're like living with each other. This is what walking each other home really looks like. And I think of Ron Doss all the time, right? Like, and I mean, there's lots of things obviously that like wonderful humans have said through the years. But that one thing, you know, just like being able to walk with each other while we're on our way home, you know? Yeah, I get goosebumps thinking about it, sorry. - Yeah, no, I love that you brought that up. I, you know, when I say I'm a psychotherapist, that is what I do now, but, you know, I spent 19 years working at a major financial institution. Then I did some things on my own, you know, running my own business in between. But it was that whole to take whatever I've been able to learn, and then share it and to get to do this in a professional manner and have it be what I do every day, it was that same sort of pull to like, how can I, how can I give this to somebody else? - Yeah, that's amazing. - So I'm very, I'm very grateful. But I appreciate how long you've been doing this 'cause I will also acknowledge my newness, you know? - Oh, well, thank you. And I appreciate how long you've been doing it. And like, because in my mind, like when a person enters into recovery, it looks all kinds of weeks, right? And when a person's in it, and they're like in it, and you can see, you can tell because their life's changed. They're not just talking about changes, but they've actually, their life has changed. - Yeah. - And continues to evolve. I love that about being human, right? I just think that's an amazing quality that we have that we have been overlooking for a long time. - Yeah, and it's something that, to be honest, I never thought was possible myself. Like I truly am, right? And that's why I ended up where I ended up, you know? And then, and maybe I'll talk like a little bit about that. Like, well, if I use the, what it was like, what happened and what it's like now, right? That's, that works great. - Yeah, but I, you know, I really like what we're talking about what's happening in the present. But where do I come from? I mean, I feel like I'm one of like 80 million stories in AA, but, right off, you know? I had what looked like an outwardly okay family, you know? Youngest of four kids, three awesome older sisters, dad with a decent job in the stay-at-home mom, but just alcohol everywhere, right? Like, you know, that how a fish doesn't know it's living in water, right? I didn't know there was anything else better than that. - Yeah. - There was always alcohol, right? And, you know, smaller, mid-sized rural towns and Ontario and just, you know, it's the typical thing of everywhere you go, you know, every event, every celebration, every sad thing, just everything includes, you know, having a few drinks. And, you know, as I got like a little bit, not older, but like able to see what's going on in my family, it's just also obvious that there's a lot of issues with alcohol within my home. Mainly, I had a extremely troubled, she had her own story of very damaged and extremely alcoholic mom. And I had a dad who drank a lot. What was a pretty fun guy, you know? And, but the constant there is that everybody's drinking, you know? And I think, you know, I mean, you know, this from a clinical standpoint, but, you know, having severe alcoholism in the home, you know, kind of, not kind of, it strongly affects how you feel about yourself and how you see the world. And I couldn't put this into perspective at the time, like, yeah, like I didn't feel ever emotionally safe, never knew what to expect. It's the whole, you know, come home and one day maybe my mom's making cookies and maybe she's sprawled out on the family room floor, you know, you just, you don't know, you know? And, you know, just the unexpected and then the very, the very shameful behaviors, right? Like, I'm talking like, you know, you know, like wearing like bath robes at my baseball games and like just like passing out at my birthday party, you know what I mean? Like that, that kind of stuff that just, yeah. It, it shouldn't happen. - Well, it's the same stuff that happened for us, right? As we started drinking more and more. - Unfortunately, yeah. And this was the thing growing up by, I mean, I couldn't wait to drink and I knew I was going to, but I was just like, of course, I'm going to drink like my dad. - Yeah. - I'm going to be the fun guy. (laughing) - Yeah. - And, you know, regardless of alcohol was part of it or not, I never know if it's a chicken or the egg. I was just generally a very sad, young kid, you know? The typical, I didn't say the right things, you know? I wasn't ever popular. had like terrible air. knee. I never, you know, I had always had like a couple close friends, but never very many, you know. And so from, you know, early on, I was generally pretty sad. And, you know, I think to combat that, I excelled in a lot of things, right? So I did very well in school, and I did very well in sports. And I kind of thought maybe this proves I'm, you know, maybe I'm okay, you know. But as soon as, you know, alcohol gets introduced, I mean, I know nothing about your story, to be honest, but I, you know, I'm going to assume there might be some similarities, but as soon as alcohol is kind of introduced into the picture, yeah, all these difficult things in life became a lot easier. Oh, yeah, yeah. For me, socializing became possible. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, but it also, right from the beginning, escalated periods of depression, you know, I was, I was a wallower. I have these like, it's funny, I think this right now, pictures of like, I was fortunate to go on like a couple spring, spring, spring breakchips in university. And there's all these pictures of my friends all together having fun. And there's like me over on the curb with my head down feel inside, you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Yeah. But on the other hand, at times, it was amazing, right? I had a lot of fun. And, and actually, this is, this is something that I kind of struggled with in AA at times too. And is the idea that like, I mean, you've, you've heard this saying, I'm sure, but like, my worst day sober is better than my best day drunk. Yeah, it's not for me. Yeah, no, I had a great time. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I didn't relate to that at all. Like, and I think I think it's it. Yeah. While, while there is many destructive things that ended up happening in my life, like, I don't want to feel bad about the fun that I had either. No. And you don't have to do, you don't have to discount the fun just to accept the bad, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It came at a cost. But it, but it came. It came. And it was fun. 100%. You know, some of my favorite memories of my life to this point are when I was still active and got to go on trips with my brothers. Yeah. And we went and we went and did fun things in Europe. Like, I think there's, yeah, I don't have, I don't have all regrets. That's for sugar. Yeah. And I don't want to be, and you know, nobody specifically is forcing me or anything like that, but I don't want like that memory of like, well, frankly, like the first 37 years of my life, all to be sort of negated as none of them were good because I was drinking. Yeah. That would be like saying I had a terrible childhood just because I was heart being harmed as a child by adults. Yeah. That doesn't mean my whole childhood was bad. Yeah. Right. We just know that because of that those things that happened as a kid, I'm affected by those things. But it doesn't mean my whole life is bad. I had two parents that love the shit out of me. So they had no idea I was being hurt, right? So yeah, it's like, it can't be all bad. I had this, and I will never talking any specifics about this part, but like I, I had this same discussion with a client recently as well used around like, you know, this person had a very rough upbringing and almost, you know, felt guilty about like nice memories of a birthday party. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, no, you, that makes it bearable in a way. You don't want to. Yeah. You don't want to push those out. You want to hold on to some of them. Yeah. That's why I like discussing. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I was going to say, especially if you don't remember all the good stuff, you have mostly bad. Yeah. Because that's what I was like when I was younger. It was mostly bad. And right, but as your recovery progresses and evolves, there's more and more memories of the joy. And that's one of the things that I'm kind of happy on still around for. Yeah. Right. You get to revisit and remember what was what was also good. Oh, heck yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I'll be honest. There's times where like, I really have to go searching, so I'm glad that maybe there's more to come. Oh, I believe there's always, yeah, if as long as we have a chance and we're digging in, we have a, we're going to find something new. Great. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, listen, I'm not going to do a, you know, I drank a lot. I went to university. I drank a lot. I got into, you know, fun other things as well. I had a lot of fun and a lot of bad times. But I was still, I still never quite, you know, I just never felt like I thought university was going to be the answer there. I'd meet all the right people and I'd feel good about myself. That didn't happen there either. And then I figured, I'll go, I got a work visa and I moved to Ireland. Oh cool. I wanted to be like, I wanted to be like Hunter S. Thompson, right? I'm like, I got a, I want to, I want to write. I want to do drugs and party and like, I better go see the world and go do that. Turns out, I just, I like to sit in bars and read books. I don't, I don't know if I did any, I didn't do any writing. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's the typical, you know, it's the geographical cure, right? Like it's not me, right? I just need to find the right situation. I don't need to change anything. Back home, you know, drinking's getting really, really bad at home with my mom and, you know, in and out of programs and illnesses and sicknesses and stuff. So it was great to get away from that. I'll make this really condensed. And this isn't why everything went bad, but I met a girl. We moved in together over there. We got pregnant unexpectedly. Great fully now, 25 years later. Wonderful son. But I was 23 years old. And in the next 18 months, we, we, we, we moved back to Canada. One of my older sisters, five years older. So actually, it is important to actually say this part right. So moved home, got married at 23, a couple of weeks later, my sister passed away of cancer on her 29th birthday. Oh, I'm so sorry, dear. Yeah. Thank you. She was a wonderful, wonderful person. That was back in 2001. It's, it's a long time. But thank you. Of course. I don't know if that's long enough. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she is, she is well remembered. You know, I was, I was in the room with her when she passed. And then a couple of weeks later, like literally, like two weeks later, my son was born. Again, I'm 23, right? It's a, it's a very difficult time. A couple months after that, my, my dad, who was kind of like my, a pillar, even if we weren't super close, had a massive life changing stroke, leaving him, you know, paralyzed on one side and, you know, done work and forever, you know, a different personality as well. Yeah. And then shortly after that, I, I, I, I found my mom after a suicide attempt. And then a few months after that, she passed away due to, due to alcoholism. Yeah. Right. Oh, it's, it's so sorry. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It was, you know, it was, it was 18 months. It was, you know, it was 23 turn in 24. Yeah. And it was tough. And it was, I don't know why I've filled me with this is right now. I also understand that, like, this was tough for everybody involved, not just me. Of course. But it was very tough for me. Yeah. And for you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think at that point, like, you don't know, I think it was this kind of shift into this weird thinking of like, oh, you know, people either have like a happy life or a sad life. And I was like, I guess it kind of turns out, I've, I've got a sad one. Like life is not good. Yeah. You know, definitely sad. Yeah. And I mean, right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, and I think at that point, like, I did everything I could to, and actually, mostly was a very good dad to my son going forward from, you know, from day one. But drinking then became, it just, that's when it really began to be like, it was the escape, right? It was, it was the only thing during all this chaos where, you know, I would get a little bit of a, a break from like, incredible pain, right? And, and I think you guys mentioned something about, I'm going to get it wrong. One of you brought up the, the metaphor of, of babies in the river when it comes to recovery. Steven. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we, we spend all the time of pulling people out of the river. But not addressing why they were there in the first place. But then also maybe acknowledging that at times, maybe that river was keeping them safe. That's right. Yeah. And I really felt that, and, and I really try to acknowledge that with, with, with clients as well, who are going through this is like, there are times when I think these, behaviors and uses. They might have saved my life. Yeah. And I get a sense from the way both of you have talked or have shared on on the episodes I've listened to that you can maybe identify with that a little bit yourself. Definitely. That if I didn't I didn't know how to deal with this stuff. And if I didn't have that, I'm not sure what I would have done. Yeah. I I 100% agree. Like I I remember coming into recovery my first few years were oh my goodness. I was just a walking promiscuous person at that point because I couldn't drink anymore. I couldn't use morphine because I quit morphine the same time I quit drinking. And wow. It was a fucking nightmare. Yeah. But it was also but it was also like what I needed. Right. Yeah. And the unfortunate thing is is that engaging in promiscuity of course humans inevitably get hurt in these behaviors. Yeah. Yeah. You know not everyone but some people do get hurt. And sometimes it was me getting hurt. Yeah. And so I don't I don't recommend people do this how I did it because my first couple of years I wouldn't take it back because I met some incredible people. And I also wouldn't necessarily recommend it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I mean some guys get into knitting. You 100%. You did your thing. Yeah. Yeah. I got into knitting differently. Yeah. Yeah. And you needed something. You needed something. You needed a way to cope and you didn't know how right. That's right. And when I was out there drinking and practicing I was selling my body. So like that had become a part of the whole process. Right. And and of course in recovery in my first few years that's when I had to address this that that behavior that that lifestyle and don't get me wrong. I don't feel ashamed for being a sexist because there's no shame in that. I am just grateful that I was able to stay sober while I was going through those things because I know lots of people who don't. Yeah. For sure. Incredible what you what you overcame. Yeah. I mean again it wasn't by myself. I'm not ever going to take away from all the wonderful people who were you never know bad at night. So yeah. Well and you don't need to hear this from me but I find myself saying it a lot. So I'll say it but it's like a sponsor who has who fired me early in recovery told me that's when I still remember it. But so Kay to pat yourself on the back just don't don't break your arm doing it. Yeah there you go. But we can take some credit. Of course. And and my friend today Steven he actually posted that about being proud of yourself in recovery right. And and I really appreciate that that idea not not to the point where we break our arms of course. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well and I mean I'm going to jump timelines here and get back into like the experience in AA at times with that too is like. Yeah. No. I think I did have a big part in my own recovery and it it isn't it isn't for me due to. I like for me it is not due to an external higher power. No. Me neither. Yeah. And and and and I don't begrudge the people. I do begrudge the people who tell me I should think that way. Yeah. I don't begrudge the people that just feel that way for themselves and that's what works for them. Total. It's amazing. But I never I was very hard to never sort of be able to be like hey like doing a good thing here. This is hard. Yeah. I get up and I decide to come here. Yeah. I know. I decide to change everything in my life. Yeah. Anyway. No, you're absolutely right. It's it's and it's okay to acknowledge that you know what you're best thinking. You know what that did. That's helped you survive all those times. Yeah. That helped you still successfully live. Right. And and that's how I feel like my best thinking when I was drinking I became a social worker. I went to school like I made it through school. I'm like how is my best thinking brought me to this 12-step room in a basement. Yeah. It just and I just I couldn't. Yeah when people would say it I just couldn't buy it. I'm just like I don't I don't connect with that. Yeah. No. And there's so many and I like I do have do I I do have love for many many people in the program. Of course. Yeah. Some people are amazing. Yeah. Some of my best friends like even my sponsor right now like yeah I mean he's just he's just a really good friend. I don't know if he's well you know what I mean and and I still I still sponsor a couple men and we're we're friends. I'm not telling you know I mean it's not really about anyways. Yeah. But there are so many of these little sayings that like when I heard them early on I was like yeah okay I this makes sense why you're saying this but I'm like if you actually take what you're saying like it doesn't actually make much sense here you know and it doesn't apply to me. I think I think the one I even I wrote this down actually because I wanted to remember a few things but you know the one that would really get me was this idea that like if somebody is successfully achieving recovery outside of AA and maybe they weren't actually a real alcohol. But that's like the church's excuse for stuff right it's like well you must not have been genuinely in need if all of a sudden you're not like yeah like if I don't understand that the minds well I do get it unfortunately because I was a part of it for a long time but I don't know how as things evolve our mindset wouldn't change like I don't know how that's possible right obviously our mindset is going to change like we're maybe maybe not today maybe not tomorrow maybe not in 10 years but at some point we we are going to be able to recognize that you know what we are actually sober and it's okay that it's okay to go other places it's okay that okay let me move on a hundred percent and it's not like look we all have things that make us angry about stuff and and some of us more so than others because we were never taught how to even be angry unless we were fighting like yeah you're allowed to fight when I when I grew up but you're not really allowed to harbor feelings right and and so that mindset followed me and many others into recovery and into their lives right like and so it's it's nice to when I first came to a place where I was starting to recognize was about 10 years to be honest and because it had been a decade at that and I started to think about okay well what's my life like now that's so different than that and of course there was lots of differences the but the biggest one was that I wasn't drinking yeah but I wasn't taking action in ways that I really needed to but they're not encouraged in certain spaces and because once you start talking about things that I'm just going to say this but once you start talking about things that folks who have been around for a while don't understand you become a pariah right so 100% and and whether it's in front of you which happens all the time or behind your back right and and it's interesting to me because I I'm a big fan like part of why I I appreciate still being in the field I'm in is because I'm a huge fan of like human beings period and not just human beings who are sober but I'm I'm a fan of humans right like I I want even people who are drinking today to be okay I and I don't want them to have to quit if they don't need to I like there's yeah you know what I mean like it's just I do I don't yeah I don't want everyone to be like me no for me to appreciate them yeah yeah and of course be friends with them like that's just not necessary so yeah yeah oh see this is this is like my first experience listen into one of your episodes this is like I don't hear I don't have people in my life who talk like this it's great yeah so I didn't either yeah because you know I know I know I know lovely people in AA of course I know lovely people outside of AA but I don't know people who are happily outside of AA who were in AA you know what I mean I do who have yeah and because they don't they don't come back and that this was the other one that like you know the idea that like a return to moderation is never possible yeah and this isn't like a goal of mine no I never never know I leave that option open not right now it's not a goal but but like even if it is a person school at one point in their life that doesn't mean they're all of a sudden out of recovery oh my gosh you mean to tell me you're thinking of potentially how we could drink again in your life well that means you're not in recovery that is bullshit yeah that's bullshit yeah I just think I have to say one of the coolest things about doing the job that I do now and working with people is see people I always say to everybody like you know I'm picking about like when I share any part of my own experience even when I'm working with with alcoholics but I usually do like it it seems important to most people I don't that's it's own because I think it really is Dave yeah, I don't know I kind of I still am at times like conflicted about like am I being a therapist or am I just telling you about my my my experience but I think in our With with people with our experiences it they have to overlap right yeah Yeah, and that's why they do talk to yeah 100% yeah, yeah, I know many times people have not wanted to talk to me for lots of reasons But have chosen to talk to me because we have commonalities that outweigh our differences Yeah, yeah, and that's all like why would I not talk it anyways? Yeah, yeah, but I it's it's been it's been fat It's been fun and exciting to work with me. I always say to people like you have the right To discover If you can you know Practice harm reduction if you can drink moderately yep, you have the right to find out right and if you can't If you can't then will reassess your goal and if it's abstinence then we'll work on abstinence But if you want to and listen everybody who comes to see me first says it if I just want to go back to drinking like I used to And if you say that in AA you're gonna get a giant eye roll Oh, yeah, right and you'll get people telling you well, maybe you're just not done yet. Maybe you should go back out Yeah, yeah, you're not ready. Maybe you should go do some research. Hey, yeah, and what you know what? Maybe you should 100% and I honestly don't feel bad about it. It's like I actually think maybe it's okay to do that Yeah, well in fact, and I'll skip back in this like I did right though like I Whatever, I don't need the I drank and drank and drank and drank and it got out of control and and I got to a point where I needed help And I ended up in a detox and then a day program Uh, and then AA And then a treat residential treatment center Um, and I put oh my god anyways. Yeah, I mean you know you know of course you um But you were allowed to talk about it too. Yeah, yeah, I mean just like I just couldn't you know just I just couldn't believe that I just couldn't believe that's where I got It was like it was like a decade that I've like no personal growth no advanced like I was an okay person I was a coach little league. I went to work. Yeah And lots of good people drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't make it. Yeah. Yeah, uh, I just I couldn't it was like watching yourself I was like watching myself lock my keys in the car for like a decade, but never stop It's like oh, it should stop doing this should stop. This is getting bad. This is getting bad. This is just like It only got worse, you know Yeah, yeah, but but even after like, you know, just this huge catastrophic bottoming out of just like Just stopped going to work in just I had to I couldn't I just couldn't function ended up in the hospital and And then you know treatment and then came out of treatment and I I was off work. I went to two or three AA meetings a day I did that like I I got I got all the way in Yeah, except for every time You know would do step one or something, you know my life has become unmanageable I would say for now in my head. Yeah I wasn't I Didn't even I feel I sometimes feel dumb about it. I didn't go to AA. I didn't even I wasn't like I'm signing up to never drink again I didn't know that I really didn't know what it was Fair enough. Yeah, that's like I need to I need to get this I need to get a handle on this was I didn't I wasn't Committed to never drinking, you know Anyway, and then I started to hear people tell stories of relapse and I was like oh I get to relapse You know and so despite all of that and the treatment center and all this and you know I got at eight months I was like I'm not sure and I certainly can't do this without being sure Like you got it like I think I think or at least I know for me. Yep It is such a massive thing to do in your life You got you've got to be all in right like you yeah And that could be mistaken for needing a bought you just simply need to hit a point where you're all in In stopping whatever it is right like yeah Yeah, I think that's amazing an amazing way to look at it and it never stops being now Yeah, no matter how long we're away from the chemical or behavior Um, yeah, it just we're allowed for human You know um and without like for me again, I don't mean to To cut you off of course like oh, I want to hear everything else. Oh, thank you. Um like the The the road takes many different pathways, right? Like it's not and when you go on a long journey across the country We don't just stay on one row though Like this is and I just look at I try to put things in perspective for myself through the years That makes sense to me right and I love road trips when I sobered up It was one of the things that I still enjoyed doing that I did everyone so Even though I was drinking and of course my life was all miserable all the time Of course it wasn't it was just like the the misery became more prevalent than the part Yeah, right? So it was it was pretty evident to me at the time like we were just talking about That it was time to stop right there was time to stop a couple of things that were really causing my life to Just be at the point where I just wanted to not be here any Um, yeah, and to me that was it that was the point Right, yeah, it wasn't after a couple of failed suicide attempts It was when I simply got done and said you know what I'm never gonna stop trying to kill myself if I keep doing this Like and it was literally like that, you know Yeah Yeah, it's a scary scary time Oh, and when you're out of it, you're like oh my gosh like that was scary, hey Yeah, it's terrifying Terrified yeah, yeah, yeah, and so with me it was it was on a like eight months in Um, I just you know, I had some time where my son was away and I was just like I'm going to a bar Yeah, no and And uh, I knew like I needed to do it because as soon as I had that first rank, I was like I Shit Like I think I think they might be right Yeah, all I want now is a thousand That's fair, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and and um and I had it admittedly kind of fun two weeks Yep With Interspersed with some very dark moments Right, and then I was like okay I got it I give up like now I give up Yeah, um, and then you know, the only place I knew to go back to was a a and and and I got to tell you like those first like two or three years For some of the best times of my life because like I was like I'm gonna go in here and I gotta make it fun Right like There's hilarious stuff happening in those rooms and I was laughing at people No, no, but of course there is yeah Like it takes itself so seriously at times Yeah, it's literally like a divine comedy, sorry Yeah, but the thing and I'm like and I'm the same as all these people I'm like this is all just crazy So we have to laugh at it and I know you know, it's in the book. We are not a glum lot That's that's what I got on my one-year cake Yeah, that's for casual. But if I if I'm gonna If I'm gonna do this and and I feel for these people I don't want to be You know the the This sounds rude, but I don't want to just be the grumpy dude in the back row who comes every day and hates his life Yeah, there's a lot of folks in there. Yeah Yeah, like this better be fun and and you know did that lead to things like you know, you're never split You're not supposed to date yet Didn't follow that rule very well Yeah, they tell they I like that. It's so funny. They tell you to go to like at least one meeting a day And not to date the people you see every day like every day it makes no sense like you're gonna date each other Yeah, okay. Let's not prey on it's gonna happen. Yeah, there's a difference between dating and praying on yeah You know what I should actually check in with you because like I figure We had I'm not sure how long this is but I because I feel all these tangents like you just sit playing on people in AA and that's a whole other Yeah, no, please take like talk about it because I just it's real just the That it is real, you know, it's so real and it's so You know they there's a I don't I don't know if they do it where you are here now there there is a like a safety card That's read at the beginning of every meeting Oh, I have not heard said that's been adopted here that at least raises that Improper things can happen yeah, and you're allowed to not be anonymous about it Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that Dave and I've never heard that before yeah, it's maybe I was oh my god This is how long I was like a GSR when that that was maybe five six years ago that started to happen wow Excellent I'm glad to hear that It's a small step yep But it's something it is it at least puts it out there on the table you I can't imagine what it would feel like though to actually be like, let's see this is full other stuff right but like the demographics are just like so it's it's it's it's white men. Yeah, and then a smattering was it's like maybe 35 30% I think like a world service to say is women. Yeah, right. Um. And even in the most I live downtown Toronto I'm in the most multicultural city in the world. Yeah, very predominantly white and you know one of you in that episode I listen to mentioned like acknowledging as a middle age white man I'm the scariest person in many rooms for a lot of people. Yep. And so what does it feel like to be not one of those people in an AA meeting when you're walking in at your very worst moment of your life. Yeah. And are you going to speak up how are you going to speak up in that type of. Yeah, I don't know it's tough. Well, it creates an environment where even without intending to it is very difficult for for folks who have been marginalizing any way shape or form right whether it be racialized sexualized whatever the case may be for someone those rooms are not safe for folks to talk about their truth right in terms of The rate the underlying racism that exists because the specific program we're talking about was created for white men with privilege. Right, like that are able to basically avoid talking about trauma, it sounds very like an extension of colonialism right like you cannot talk about your your sexuality or your gender diversity and in some meetings, this is still very much real out here at least out here in Alberta, I'm not going to speak about other places, but being able to talk about your, oh, did I just lose yet. Shit. Okay, for some reason we've lost contact, I'm hoping that they'll check back in here. Welcome back. I can't believe you're still there. Oh, I was just in the washroom and so I was like, you know what, like if I come back and you haven't made it, maybe you just can't make it tonight. Yeah, you know, like I'm downtown Toronto and everything was gone for a while, including like usually I can reconnect through the, you know, cell. Anyways, everything's going yeah, we I had all the camping gear out the candles going and now we're back. So right on well, it's good to see you back. And I mean, it's nice that we can finish this tonight, obviously, yeah, but I it's it was always possible to reschedule. I am pretty yeah, I'm pretty chill. Like, okay, yeah, you're going to have a bunch of you're going to have a bunch of Instagram messages from me. Apologizing, even of course, it's not my fault, but you know, of course, it's all good and thank you for the messages. I'll look at the later. I'm sure yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah, so where were we at? Do you remember? You know what? I don't I don't know that I specifically do, but I think what I can do is just kind of pick up at kind of like. A spot and recovery and then I'd love to kind of talk to you about like. And you can give me a time reference at any time here, but just about like outside of AA. Yeah, what what what does work? How what is like, what is it about that program that also occurs outside the program that can work? And I think that's that's kind of some fascinating stuff. But me take longer than we have, but I think I'll just kind of skip into, you know, I think I was talking about. I I've gotten back into the program and I jumped right in and I had as much fun as I possibly could. That's right. Yes, yeah. And for a few years, it was it was wonderful. And you know what? Like life changed completely, you know, like I. I just like I am so thankful. I really am, you know, turns out when I wasn't hung over all the time, I got promoted rapidly time and time again at the bank that I was working at is able to, you know, get out of massive debt. You know, I was able to be a better parent. I might my father went through an awful, awful like horrific about with like a facial cancer for a number of years. Sorry, Andy also was recovering from stroke, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this is a number of years later where he went through the cancer. But, but I was able to be, you know, I was able to be there, like really be there and not be drunk, you know what I mean? Like it just, I'm like an amazing, wonderful way out of my league partner. I took on a couple of step kids who I've been a very good presence in their life of, you know, all these ups and downs with my own son, he's, he's doing great. And, you know, and all these things, but it just, it didn't, it just didn't fit to keep, to keep going back, you know, and, and I think one thing I was thinking about in the break there was, you know, I, I think I saw, well, I read your biography online somewhere and there was some mention of, was it like Buddhist recovery? Yeah, I got into that for a while myself. Yeah, because I wanted like anything that was an AA to be, I wanted like a cooler recovery, yeah, you know, um, but like so I was always searching for for something different. Um, and I, you know, I ate agnostic and atheist AA has a pretty big presence here in Toronto, right on, right on, and I went there and, and for all the wonderful people that were in there too, it was, it was a lot of just why I don't like traditional. AA, yeah, we weren't really talking about recovery in there. Yeah. And then so I kind of just got lost for a little while of like, I don't, I don't really feel I belong in any of these places. And so what does that mean, you know, who, and it's just kind of been this exploration now of like, being free to choose what your own recovery looks like, you know, which is kind of what, what really resonated with, with how you guys spoke about it. But it's scary. And it is scary 100%. I part of what kept me going to the rooms for so long after I realized it wasn't really being what it used to be for me was when I realized that I was going to lose all the fellowship, right. And of course, I didn't lose all my acquaintances. I still speak to some wonderful humans because I met many wonderful humans. But of course, losing that, that support group all of its own is a big deal, right. Like, sorry, go ahead. I said, yeah, it's a massive deal and I miss it. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And there's people that I miss. And I mean, the truth of the matter is, the longer I'm away, the less I miss the whole process. But it doesn't mean I don't miss people because I do, right. I just don't, I definitely don't miss the folks that, that make it really hard for others. I don't miss those folks at all. But I definitely miss some wonderful humans who have touched me deep. So yeah. Yeah. And I think this is kind of an interesting place to maybe like talk about what it is about AA that actually is important that works for people in recovery. And like, you've been doing this professionally a lot longer than I have, right. So I value what you'd have to say to this, but there was a couple. There's a couple studies or papers that have come out in the last 10, 15 years and. And one of them. That's been really important to me and how I kind of speak about recovery to clients. Um, is, is, uh, it's, I think Margaret Leigh me was her name. It's, I remember this from doing my master's. I don't know if you're, if you're there, you can hear me. I can hear you now. I couldn't hear you for a while. Yeah. I'm going to say to me on it, we've lost all power again. And this is probably something's happened. This, I don't want to waste, you know what I mean. This is going to be happening. Okay. So let's let, why don't we do a part two? Yes, sir. Hopefully, thank you so much. Is back in order. Thank you. We take care and I'll see you next week. You as well. Take care, Dave. Thank you.