So you screwed up. Now what?

Uncover from CBC podcasts is your source for exceptional storytelling and groundbreaking journalism. Here how lives were altered forever by results from one DNA lab. "I'm like, what do you mean he's not my son?" And unravel the clues that a gravel pit may hold about one woman's disappearance. "It's just odd because there was no trace of a scuffle, there was no nothing." After the very best in award-winning true crime, listen to Uncover wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. It's time to brush your teeth. Can we please brush your teeth? What parts of it do you need help with? Okay, I'll give you ten more seconds. Okay, you need to lie down. Okay, now you need to sit on the counter. Oh, now you need me to hold you. Please tell me she's talking to a child. Just to me. This is now or never, I'm E.F.E. And I'm Trevor and that's how Edmonton mom and therapist Kayla, who's our "tried to convince her kids to brush their teeth for years." And then I would reach element because time would go by. Like I'm not kidding, ten, fifteen, twenty minutes would go by. And then I would be like, and that's enough. And we have to brush your teeth. Please now overwhelmed, upset, overstimulated. We've been talking about this for ten minutes. And now it's not really about the teeth brushing. It's now about that I've lost control. And so it would sound a lot like compromising by being. And now it sounds like you have one minute to get ready to brush your teeth. And either you can do it or I'm going to do it. And I'll set a timer and I'll come back at sixty seconds. I very much enjoyed your mom tone. I'm Kayla, who's our. I am a mother of two. I experimented with gentle parenting for many years. And it worked until it didn't. My parenting fail has a financial implication. So the information online, you know, is that if your children don't want to brush their teeth, you just, you have a natural consequence. They just don't get candy. They don't get sweets. They don't do this. Well, that can only go on for so many days before you actually cause damage in the teeth. You know, it was like miscommunication between my husband and I. Like when was the last time we actually, and I'm certain it hadn't been more than two or three days, what I didn't realize is that bread, goldfish, dry cereal gets impacted in there, right? Okay. Once Trevor twice, both of my children, because of the natural consequence and all things that I'm reading online and the way to do it right and don't cost trauma and don't force it. Right? No, they both had to have dental surgery, which case cavities had to be filled with metal caps and my youngest had to have two teeth pulled because they were rotting from the inside. Really? Really? How does that feel to just say aloud? At the time, I am having a absolute shame spiral, right? I'm like, it's 6.30 in the morning. I am at a surgery place and my child is like under like with a mask, I'm cold because he has so much dental work that needs to be done. This isn't his fault. He didn't ask for this word. Like, where is the strong leadership in me to be able to facilitate teeth brushing in a way that doesn't make me a rage monster? I am mostly impressed that Kayla is sharing this story out loud. I'm not a parent, but I feel like this is an experience I would take with me to the grave. She has a whole lot more to say about that and that's coming up in just a little bit, but let's be honest, we've all been there. When my daughter was three-eerie after a bath, she wandered out onto the front yard, and walked naked, without me knowing at all, and a neighbor who I barely knew had to bring her back into my home. Like I didn't look like parent of the year in that moment in any way, shape or form. Do all parents have stories like this? Like this is wild. But I don't think it's just parents. I think like everyone has a failure story. I think we need to stop pretending like we've got it all figured out in life because we don't. Everyone fails. Everybody. So let's talk about it. You're going to find out what happens when a hopeful entrepreneur messes up on her first big order. And unfortunately, the product had gone moldy, and I didn't know. So they went to all of the customers, like 100, 200 people, and they opened up the dough and it was hairy. That was my debut as an entrepreneur was hairy dough. I don't even have words for that. We're going to meet a man who started his own music festival, but then struggled to pay the artists when it was over. Almost with every artist before they took the stage, I had to sit with them in their trailer and say, I don't have your money. It was crushing. You know, you snap your side of the trailer, you get ready to knock, and you pause on the fist with the knock, and he was like, we're in this fire. We gotta keep going. And at two time, Olympian so sure that she is on the cuss of qualifying for her third appearance doesn't. You know, my identity is so wrapped up in Natasha, the really good runner. And I'm like, what happens when that's not me anymore? This is now or never. How do you come back from failure? You know, failing can be really uncomfortable. Failing is apparent though. That could get you in trouble. But Kayla, who's are as brave enough to open up about why gentle parenting failed her, the impact it had on her marriage, and when she knew enough was enough. I would go from gentle to raging because I would feel unheard. And the only way that I would be heard is when I was angry because then I was scary. But then you'd feel like you failed. Right. You're a human and you have emotions and things are gonna make you mad. And but this new wave of parenting is that anger is wrong. Anger is bad because as this generation, we have reflected and gone to therapy and done all the things around how anger had hurt us. So we think I have thought anger is bad. When in reality, it's not because we're human. What do gentle parenting do to your marriage? Oh, created like a chasm. Then softer I got, the harder he had to become because my softness had no bounds. And so the boundary would be pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and then he would have to come in and be the hard and fast. Like stop it. You can't treat people like that. You can't talk to your mom like that. That brings tension to each other. Yeah. And my husband has said like, you know, for a lot of years, I didn't question it. Like the method because you were the one who was reading the books. You were the one who was trying to solve the problems. Which in my mind felt like I was doing more than he was. Like I was telling myself this narrative that like he didn't want to or he didn't care enough for, you know, like all these really horrible things. But in reality, he was embodying what I now know as and what a lot of parents are now calling like authoritative parenting. He wasn't yelling, wasn't spanking them. Like he wasn't coming and hinged. It was just he had boundaries and he embodied them. And when they talked back or when they wouldn't eat or when they wouldn't sleep, he didn't cave on the things that I would cave on. What was the moment then when you realized for yourself that something needed to change and how you were parenting? Yeah. There's one moment in particular. My oldest was like losing it to the point where he'd like thrown this gigantic plastic dinosaur at me. And I felt like I couldn't get control of the situation. So I went into my room and I closed the door. Like I was hiding from it. I think it's one thing to realize that, but it's another thing to actually change it. How hard was that for you to shift? Oh, you know, I think there was a long time when I felt self pity about it. Like I'm stuck here. I can't do anything about it. These are the cards. You know, this is my son's temperament. This is yours. This shift worker, husband, all the things. I think I felt a lot of like, what was me? And then there was this one conversation that just happened to be one of those like right moment to actually communicate with my partner. And he said something like, so what are you going to do about that? And that's kind of what started it. And later we were going to go for a walk and my in-laws were at my house and I was trying to convince my wife. all this to come with us. And he wanted to ride his bike, but we wanted to walk. And it was a whole thing. And, and I lost control of the situation. And finally, I had to go inside, get my husband to come out to get him so that my mother-in-law and me and my youngest could go for a walk. And she just stopped. And she looked at me and she was like, you are trying way too hard to be kind, to be endless options, the like, the negotiating, the like, either you want to come or you don't, like, we're leaving. And from that moment on, it was, it was slow. But from that moment on, when I found myself stressed over thinking overwhelmed, over facilitating some kind of result, I just, I remember this thing of like, you're trying too hard. What was your kids' reactions? Because it's got to be weird when mom starts coming in, coming in hot a little bit. You know, it was gradual because I don't think I could embody that as consistently as I am now. But it definitely started with admittedly watching some super nanny videos. And like getting some of the life, this is actually how you facilitate a timeout with compassion without raising your voice. Like this is not, this is not traumatizing. And I still needed that guidance. But it was very much like, okay, this is what I say, this is how I do it in a different way than how that information maybe was coming to me around it, like in the gentle parenting sphere. How did the, how did the new approach change the way you felt as a parent yourself? God, man, I feel powerful. I know how to do this. And I know that I'm not causing harm. And I know that I am doing these things out of love and out of care and out of, to not raise a sociopath, right? Like, I know that this, this is good for you. It's uncomfortable. You are feeling distress about something that I'm saying. But that's not trauma. This is human emotions, right? You're mad. You're mad that I told you you couldn't slam that dinosaur on the ground or on my leg or whatever. But like, no, that hurt, man. Don't do it again. Oh, yeah, it felt empowering. And even when I think about it in my body, it's like, it feels like there's something like radiating, you know, out of me. And when I think about that powerless feeling, that anxiety, provoking, that place where like mental halls can get real dark and twisty when you are trying to prescribe to, to a way that feels like heavy. Like I, like I, like I don't want to get out of bed. Like I don't want to take you swimming. Like I don't want to even go out and public with you. Like there's like a, yeah, there's like a heaviness to it. Is there one boundary that you set that completely changed like the vibe in your house? I started to be more kind and firm about how you could treat me and my body. You know, my younger will be like, can I please climb into your lap while we're eating supper or can I please drive my cars on the stripes of your sweater or you know, whatever that looks like. And so there's more, the boundary, I think is that we have created an environment of consent. What do you think they've learned to boom-mom through this? Do I am a human? I'm not like a human giving machine that just has this endlessness of capacity or patience or kindness even. You know, like there are days that I am unkind. Like I can't access it. And it's like, nope. Today it's go brush your teeth. Not can you please go brush your teeth. Some days it just is as it comes out. How does it feel to admit, like on radio, that gentle parenting failed? Oh, I feel like I'm calling something out that feels very personal and important to people. It can be hard to admit that that it doesn't come naturally, that you're trying so hard to do it and it still feels like it's not enough. It can be hard to be the person who says, this might not be working. And if you, if gentle parenting feels safe, if it's not broken, don't fix it. But if it's not a safe container anymore and people are already feeling that way, I hope saying it like this on radio reaches those people who need it. I'm E.P. And I'm Trevor. And E.P. I have to admit that I do feel a bit uncomfortable talking with people's failures. Oh, this is me too. I cannot watch those like talent shows, shows, competitions when it's someone especially bad and everyone is watching that happen. I have to turn it off. I can't do it. A public fail is my nightmare. It just like, it's just so cringy sometimes. So when I heard about a music festival in Ontario this summer that was banking on 30 to 40,000 people showing up and less than 5,000 came, my heart broke for the organizer, especially when I found out why he put the festival on in the first place. I've been diagnosed with a testicular cancer and I was back in my hometown and I spent my hours and days sitting at the boat ramp in the hometown sitting in Ontario. I'm just kind of staring and lost in my brain going, oh shit, what's, what is my life now? What if I didn't know the seriousness of it or the uncertainness of it? I was trying to find purpose and trying to do something with my time instead of just whittle away in self-pity. So behind me is the local football field. I'm not a sports fan at all but I looked, I turned around and I'm like, this is a venue. We can put on a concert here. I just pictured filling that football field up and everyone sharing in positive, positive energy. Music is the one tie that binds us all. It's the vibration. It brings everything out in you in. You just shut off whatever stresses are in your world and just be in the moment and I wanted to help share that and bring that to people. My name is Jeremy Campbell. I am the founder of the Music and Arts Festival called Line Spike Frontenac located in Northeak Kingston, Ontario. We had our inaugural festival in June of this year, 2025. Everything didn't go according to plan but we are going at it again and we're going to keep pushing forward to make this an annual event despite whatever obstacles might come our way. Jeremy's Music Festival, he saw it as a way of bringing Canadians together at a time when all the tensions between the US and Canada were at their peak. He started booking only Canadian acts like Chantel Kripyatzig, walk off the earth and Burton Cummings to build on the national pride. Everything was going according to his plan until it wasn't. See when you're planning a festival there are a lot of balls in the air. You're juggling everything and you have to adapt. You're juggling contracts with artists, artists availability, vendors, infrastructure, bylaws locally and I was pretty much one guy doing every single aspect of this and then the biggest thing that happened was my liquor license which had been approved. It was endorsed by the township and then provided by the AGCO. It was revoked and it hurt my ticket sales at the worst possible moment and I saw that it was going to impact my finances hard. I had all my financing in place. I had borrowed money, leveraged everything, everything around me to make it happen and who they're saying full numbers. It's not cheap to put these things together. It's not far from seven figures for a two day event. So I leveraged everything. No matter what I had to go through that the bands were signed. The venue was there. The stage was there. I had all the artist trailers, all the fancy and security guards. You name it. I couldn't pull the plug on it. It was too late and every artist before they took the stage, I had to sit with them and their trailer and say, I don't have your money. It was crushing. You know, you snap your side of the trailer, get ready to knock, you pause on the fist with the knock and he was like, find your little zen moment and go, you know what? We're in this fire. We got to keep going. I knew that they knew you can see it in their face but they wanted to hear what I had to say. But the anxiety from that, you do your best to let your entire chest collapse in on itself. Because it's like, holy it together going, okay, they see it. I have to deliver it and I'm not putting the show on for them. I'm just giving them the truth of a situation and you know, it's I think when they saw my honesty and you know, holding back my own tears and saying, will you still play? And every artist did and for that, I'm forever grateful. It's got to be such a wild ride. Like, you didn't vision a field full of people when you first thought about this. That didn't happen. It may have not been 20, 30,000 people. It may not have been five to 10,000 people, but it was in in the range of 3 to 4,000. And when you see that menu, many people in celebration with their arms in the air, screaming in the same songs that they all know and it spans the generations from little kids right up to grandparents. To me, that was a success. Maybe not financially, but I saw that it worked. What was that like, finally, feeling you'd been wanting to have? But then the next day happens and you start realizing the debt that you are now in. You say what was that like? It's a past tense thing. It's still a current tense thing. It's a definite heavy. I was not expecting to owe people. And I've had a pretty damn good history in the entertainment industry and making sure my debts go paid. So to come out of it, owing, and it's something they still have to deal with. We actually never said aloud how much you owe at the moment. What's the number at? I'm sitting around 225. And that's just what I still owe split across a variety of things, be suppliers, some artists, a bit of labor, you name it. And that's where they meet really even getting one cent. Forget being putting money into this. It's me not drawing on this either. So what are you doing right now to pay back the money that you still owe these musicians? I'm trying to make good and little bits here and there. I'm going to get through the grants process really. That's my biggest, biggest save. Secondary to that, there's a significant HST, GST component to this that I've been waiting on, which allows me to put a bit of money out to each supplier and artists, you know, just kind of a in good faith. You know, it's obviously not what I owe in total, but shows I'm making effort towards it all. I'm trying to work on kind of a refinance plan. Because it is all achievable. It's just a bit doing it the right way. What would you say then is the hardest part about knowing that you haven't been able to fully pay off a lot of the bands? It's my name. It's my reputation. I don't ever want to be seen as that guy. You know, I shake hands all the time in your contracts. I'm gotten to what you with that and I make a commitment to people. I don't like not fulfilling my commitments to people. And that's what hurts me the most. That I'm seen as not trustworthy or dependable reliable on that front because that's not who I am. That's not my character demeanor. If I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. But situations change and sadly, there's a few situations that were way beyond my control that hit me this year and put me in this position. It's a cloud that follows me around. It's tethered tight. Not to my neck, but definitely around my chest. I'm constantly raising my hands in the air. One is the star in attack. Is this coming? Is this what's taking me out? It's a lot to carry. I think a lot of people who have gone through something that didn't work out or that failed, they get very scared or unsure if they should try it again. But you're jumping back on the festival horse this year and you're giving it another go. And on earth gives you the confidence to try this again. Is it confidence or is it stupidity? I'm not sure. I really don't know. When I saw those people and I saw that magic moment, there's something to build from. It's got the pillars underneath it. And I think everyone at the concert in person after when I saw it writing and whatnot, I think it community wants that magic. If this was easy, everyone will be doing it. How do you get bands, suppliers, fans to trust that this time it's going to work out? Yeah. It's a lot of trust, but with artists, everyone does get something upfront. And it's going to be on them whether they trust me and knowing that if things do or where they go south again on whatever level, that the deposits they get whatnot, that they're willing to risk potentially not immediately getting the balance of that. Yeah. That's all I can ask. Oh, it is. It is. It's going to be a case by case basis, really. Yeah. What will it mean to you if the headlines after this year's festival instead of reading what happened? It read. He did it. He pulled it off. Yeah. I'd probably have to have a little moment by myself and tear up. I think I'd feel like those clouds would be lifted off my shoulder. That stress like every day with my is this the day that heart attacks it and take me out. I think that would just let me breathe again and just lay back in that field and watch the stars and just breathe. It would be magic. It would be good. [Music] If you've ever wished for a redo button in life, today's episode of Now or Never is just for you. Uncover from CBC podcasts brings you award-winning investigations year round. Infiltrate an international network of neo-Nazi extremists. [Music] Discover the true story of the CIA's attempts at mind control. Their objective was to wipe my memory or dig into a crypto king's mysterious death and a quarter billion dollars missing. There are deep oddities in this case. With episodes weekly, uncover is your home for in-depth reporting and exceptional storytelling. Find uncover wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Trevor Denean. And I am Yffi Chiwe Te Lu and in solidarity with all the bravery of people sharing their failed stories today, I'm going to tell you one of mine. Ooh, like a big one? Trevor hold my hand. It's quite big that I actually don't even know if I should say this, but my very first job out of university and I made an accrual accounting error that was so big they had to restate their quarterly earnings. What? Yeah, when I tell you, I remember walking to my boss's office to share this and I'd already clean up my desk. Like I packed everything up because in my mind I'm like they're going to walk me out this building and that's going to be the end. And it wasn't like just because I'm here doesn't mean that I was like cool. I did survive that but I can still feel that feeling in the back of my throat where I was like I don't know how I'm going to see the other side of this. But I'm better now at handling some of these failures or at least I like to think so, but it's those early lessons and failure that really stick with you. And one of the first places you really learn how to fail is school. I am headed to the Toronto Metropolitan University to ask students about their big fails. I studied hard and got like a 23 in one of my exams. 23 out of 100? Okay, 23 percent. I recently failed my finance midterm with a 40 percent and this is the first midterm I've ever failed. So it really like caught me off guard because I thought I prepared well but the result was not what I was hoping for. How you been feeling about that? I first texted my friend and we both didn't do well. So it was a moment of solidarity between us and also just knowing that you're not alone even if it's like a poor moment. The first one hurts. You know you just got to pick yourself back up and hit the books. In my grade 12 year I had to retake a course in summer to get here so I failed grade 12 chemistry. So it was a tough one. I didn't think I'd make it here after doing that but I still got all three of my offers so I'm happy that I was able to make it here. Look at your hair. What did you learn from that experience? This kind of shaped how I study, like have a good habit, sleep so I don't ruin how my mind functions. I failed two classes. How do you fail the class before then? No never, never. So that was a big breakthrough. Break down? Break down too. It was a very humbling moment I would say. What did you come out of that experience knowing? Well I knew that I didn't want to do anything with philosophy. I was like 30 years old. It was when I really started to feel the burnout. So it was when I stopped attending classes as much and yeah I took some else there. The grades started to reflect that. That's such a hard place to be able to be so burnt out but also still needing to perform. I feel like I hold myself up to such a high standard especially academically. So when I wasn't performing how I used to felt like I wasn't good enough and started digging deeper into that hole. How'd you get out? I had to lock it. I guess my last year now got a lock in. How do you feel about failure now? I think it's okay. That's okay to fail. I feel like it's probably even good to fail. You can be a teaching experience. You can be a moment to learn from. And it can be a moment to grow from. Failure can sound scary, but I think it's like a step in the right direction. You know, this one midterm doesn't define me. I will get my degree. It's a marathon on a sprint. If you fail this persevere and try again, and if you can just learn from your mistakes, you can still make it to where you want to be. Why am I excited to fail all of a sudden? Because all that good, a hopeful energy around failing, which I agree with most of it. That very last one that you can still make it where you want to be. I don't know. I think failing doesn't mean that it's the end of your life, but there are some failures that mean a door is closed. Like you have to completely pivot where you think life is going to take you. Just ask Natasha. It's been a lot of pressure. But sucks. They really sucks. Natasha Wodak has just finished the 2024 Hamburg marathon, and it is just sinking in that she has lost her final chance to qualify for the 2024 Paris Olympics. Who doesn't make any sense? They just do so unfair. You may have heard of Natasha. She is one of the fastest female marathoners in Canadian history. She has set and broke multiple national running records and competed in both the Rio and Tokyo Summer Olympics. I'm Wodak, the second Canadian over the line again. Arms a loft or she crossed the line there Wodak. Leading up to the 2024 Paris Olympics, Natasha had four chances to try and run the Olympic standard, which she thought was more than enough. I was very confident, and I had such a great plan that I, my coach and I had put together of how I was going to qualify. I had already run a time that was three minutes faster than the qualifying time, like six weeks before the window opened, so I was like, "I have 20 months to run the qualifying time." The first time around when I tried for London, I got sick right before we went. It is what it is. I got sick. I couldn't race. And then when I tried again for the World Championships, it was really, really hot. 23 degrees centigrade at the moment. It's only five to seven in the morning, and it is climbing. I'm tough. I'm a little disappointed. Sorry. So I couldn't run the standard there. And then when I went to Houston, I had a strained hamstring. Well, that's heartbreaking. I guess that's how it goes sometimes, right? This is the Olympic journey, you know? By the time I showed up in Hamburg, I think I was just exhausted, like mentally and physically. I think it was just too much. And so on race day, I just, I had some weird cramping issues. I still don't know, because bizarre. It just didn't go well. And I knew I could see my time slowing, and I just knew there was no way I was going to be able to do it. And that moment, you have to sort of decide, like, do I just drop out or do I just. freaking get this thing done. Yeah. Can you take me to that place at the Hamburg Marathon when you cross the finish line? Like, what was your reaction when you saw your result? I crossed the line, and at first there was no tears. Like, I had thought I would just like burst into tears. I was just like, okay, it's over. So then when I got to the camera, and he's right there, and he's like, how are you feeling? And then I just was like, been a lot of pressure. Like, crying, and I'm like, why did this happen? It's not fair. I look back and I don't like saying it's not fair, because I'm. what I'm doing is such a privilege, and to like, say, it's not fair. I don't like those words. And that was it. I'll back to the room and I called my coach, and there were some more tears there, because the feeling. I think, yeah, that's a hard part. Sorry. It's feeling like you let someone down. And of course, he's like, you didn't let me down, and I'm so proud of you. But those are really tough conversations when you have people that. they give up so much of their time, and my parents who'd flown across the world to be there. But I think too, is that in this world of social media, I think a lot of people already saw me as like a shoo-in for the team, and making the team. And so you feel like you've also failed a lot of people that follow you, that look up to you, that are like, oh wow, what happened to her? Is she washed up? Is she done? Like, I try to say I don't care that much, but I'm a human being, and of course I do. Yeah, I think ultimately as a professional athlete, the pinnacle of our sport is the Olympic Games. So when you fail to make that, you feel like what you've kind of failed as an athlete at your job. But. Yeah, you know. I feel like when you're such a high level athlete, especially considering competing at those highest levels of being the best in the country, best in the world, you have to have like incredible belief in your ability and your excellence, like how long did it take for you to feel confident in running again? Yeah, my confidence was pretty shaken, to be honest. I think the next time I lined up for a marathon, I was pretty scared that it wasn't going to go well, because the last one didn't. And the next marathon I ran was way less pressure, was, you know, our national championships in Toronto. So it's go time for the 2024 TCS Toronto Waterfront Marathon. It promises to be an absolute classic. My family was there, lots of friends there. I knew that I wasn't chasing a standard. I was just out there trying to run the best I could on the day. Natasha Wodex here, I think the Brimis is turning to a smile. She knows where she is on the course. Here she comes around the turn for her first Canadian national marathon title. Oh yeah, big up their balls. She's milking in, she's enjoying it. And she is our final champion of the day. It was great for my confidence quote there. And I loved the marathon build leading up to that race because there was no pressure. And I just had more fun with the training. And I showed up on race day feeling just a little lighter and was able to enjoy it a little more. How long after Hamburg was that one? Five or six months. I move on kind of quickly. I don't hold on to things. I don't like sitting with uncomfortable feelings. Listen, me too. But sometimes I struggle to shake it off. So for you, like what is it that you tap into or say or do that helps you? I think because I've had so many shitty races in my career, I've been doing this since elementary school that I know there'll always be another good race. You know, I'm almost 44. So whether or not I can still run PB's. TBD. But after competing so consistently at such a high level, what is it like for you to be in a place it sounds like that you are sort of embracing where your body's at and maybe not being in that stage of like pushing past the pain or forcing that kind of effort? The first word that comes to mind is frustrating, but I think I'm coming to terms with this might be my new body. You know, I don't know if it was just that I ran to many marathons and my body was tired and wasn't catching up or if I am getting older and it's inevitable that I'm going to start slowing down or whatever. So I still do get frustrated when I'm like, well, I did this workout last year and it was way faster, but I'm also willing on to hope that I can get back to that. I'm trying to really just stay calm and be patient. You know, I'm trying. Try it. It's not easy. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's a scary thought to think about not being good anymore. Hopefully I'll be okay with just being Natasha, an okay runner and Natasha, the coach. I think it's good for me to talk about the stuff and for me to know that that transition is coming. And I definitely think I'm going to have to look into getting seeing some sports psychologists and stuff because it is a difficult transition. So I'm preparing for that. So is part of thinking to the future also 2028 Olympics? Is that something here? I have no idea. I just thought I was going to take it sort of year by year and month by month. So at this point, I just want to see where I'm at when I get into 2026. And I don't want to go to the Olympics just for the sake of like, oh, I qualified by the skin of my teeth. And then I don't want to go if I can't run really well. And at that stage, I'll be, I believe I would be 46 and I don't, I just don't know where I'll be at. So it's hard to plan. I mean, it would be amazing. Of course, we'll see. And I am, you know, I'm getting tired of the grind and the chasing the goals. facing the goals. So I don't know if that's - Yes, we'll end up. - Yeah, I'm thinking back to the Instagram posts that you shared after the Hamburg marathon. You use the words like I failed. Use them as a whole sentence. It was just I failed period. When you look back at that time, is that how you still see it? Like that you failed? - Well, that's a good question. Well, the answer is yes, I did. My goal was to make the Olympic team and I did not. So if you just, think of it as simple as that. Yes, I did fail. But there is nothing to be ashamed of or disappointed when you give your absolute 100% of yourself to go after a big goal. So I'm very proud of that. - Have there been any natashes you've thought of trying on? Like if not the really fast runner? - I started coaching in the last three years and I absolutely love it. So I want to dive into that and I want to be a high performance coach. I want to coach other little natashes to break my records. I think I would get a lot of joy from that. And that's one thing I'm scared of missing out is there's nothing I can imagine that feels as good as like when I achieve one of my big running goals and I feel like coaching I will get that same fulfillment, I think. So that's kind of where I see myself. (soft music) - You know how I know I wouldn't make a good coach easy? - How? - It's that if I knew someone was gonna break my record I would do everything in my power to sabotage that person. So my record stood the test of time. - I 100% agree that you would be a horrible, horrible coach. (laughing) - But Natasha did say she does feel defensive about the record she set and she says while she's still running, like yeah she doesn't want anyone coming for those. But when she's done you can have one. (soft music) - You know behind the scenes here now whenever we've been cooking up a little something special for you during the holiday season. So if you I wanna ask you, when was the last time that you got a message that just made you smile? - Oh you're asking this question at such a good time because I am drowning in them. - Really? - Yeah it was just my birthday and so I received a lot of just really, it was, I mean it helps it was a milestone birthday. So I got a lot of really beautiful letters. And actually one of my friends made sure that at the little party that I had everyone wrote a message for me to read while I was on vacation. So I had a thick stack of like 20 plus messages to just remind myself while I was celebrating that I'm special and I'm amazing and truly can't recommend it enough. - Oh my gosh, do you have those like now like taped around your bedroom just like when you wake up first thing you read? - I should, I should. They're sitting on a counter and they're there for me to go through anytime. - I love that though. - Yeah and it's funny because we have so many ways to connect to people these days, probably more than we've ever had and yet more and more people are feeling disconnected. So we wanna try and fix that in our own little now or never way. - Yeah is there a message that you'd be meeting to send to somebody? I thank you, a memory, a confession. We wanna hear from you. Right to us at now or never at cbc.ca about the message that you've been putting off but really need to send. And we might help you do just that. (soft music) - Okay, back to failing. Not us, we're crushing this episode. - But what do you remember about being at your lowest points? All those feelings of not being good enough, not seeing a way through, not sure how you even got there. Erica Rankin is going through all of that right now. - I'm eating a smoothie bowl in my car. I'm myself 'cause I'm sad and I'm trying to just come to terms with what my life is right now. I'm filing for bankruptcy. Everything that I worked so hard for just came crashing down. - In 2024, Erica had hit rock bottom. Her startup Cookie Do business had failed and she was in the process of moving back in with her parents and filing for bankruptcy. - And I just feel like a failure and I feel so confused. I don't know what to do with my life. Like I'd feel numb to everything. (soft music) - How did Erica get here? Well, when she was a fresh-faced university grad, she quickly realized that working for someone else wasn't for her. So she did what a lot of people do in their early 20s when they're in the middle of an existential crisis. She quit her office job and hopped on a plane. - I booked a one-way trip to Southeast Asia, planned on going for a month and then stayed for three months. And for some reason, I kept running into entrepreneurs. I kept bumping into them. I matched with them one dating apps. I was just always constantly exposed to them and the one thing that they all had in common was when they talked about what they did their face would light up and they were excited and passionate about what they were doing. And I thought, "Wow, I didn't know that this was a thing "and that people could be excited about their careers." And I went home and I remember sitting on my mom's carpet in her living room and I'm like, "Okay, what am I good at? "What do people want?" And the thing that I landed on was Edible Protein Cucuito, which goes back to my body building days it all kind of ties together because that's one thing I used to make all the time and I would share it on my Instagram. It always was so popular when I posted it. People would recreate it and take me and comment and I was very passionate about better for you products and eating healthy. So I landed on that and then I launched Brodo, which was my first business. - It sounds like your introductory into being an entrepreneur was definitely like people who were like enthusiastic and happy about it, which isn't always the case. Like when did you first really experience? Oh, this isn't gonna be like just smooth sailing for me, like, things might not go how I'm hoping they will. - Probably like my first month of business. I remember I found a commercial kitchen and I did not have a food scientist because I didn't fully understand food chemistry and how well that works and shelf life and all of that. So I had created a bunch of product and I got my first order from a store and I shipped all of them to the store and unfortunately the product had gone moldy and I didn't know and she didn't know, she didn't open them up to check them before she sent them to her customers. So they went to all of the customers, like like 100, 200 people and they opened up the dough and it was hairy. So that was my debut. That was my debut as an entrepreneur was hairy dough and I remember getting picture after picture in email threads and people being super disappointed. And I thought, okay, this is not gonna be easy and am I done for? Like people are gonna know that I did this and are they gonna trust me? Are they gonna repurchase from me? Yeah, that was the first problem that I ran into. And I remember just throwing like dozens and dozens of jars down the garbage shoot in my apartment building 'cause they were all all hairy and they couldn't do anything with them. - Oh my gosh. - You make me think about when it's like your idea, your thing that you were out there putting together on your own again, hit in like a deeply personal way were you feeling that? - I had to hire a business coach because I tied my identity so closely into the business. So if the business was doing well, I was doing well. If it wasn't doing well, I felt like I wasn't doing well. And my self-worth was fluctuating up and down as the business was. 2024, I think it was January like right after new years. I made the decision to shut the business down. It wasn't profitable after four and a half years. I sent out a mass email to all of my partners, like retailers, distributor, broker, basically saying we're using operations. It was a tough decision. The hardest thing that I went through was telling my investors that I lost all of their money and that I would be shutting down the business because I did have investors that did believe in me and the company and they did put in their own money. One day I do want to pay them back. (laughs) One day when I get that one business that works, I do want to make it up to you. - I'm thinking about the video you shared from that time where you were in your car. It was a moment where you were sort of walking through bankruptcy. - I didn't think I would get over it really honestly. And I remember going into see the bankruptcy trustee and going through the process of, okay, what would it look like if I did file and how many years would it take to rebuild my credit? Like this is a button that, and once I press it, I can't take it back. But I had 20 to 30 calls a day. Like my phone was ringing off the hook. I had tons of debts and one of the institutions that I borrowed capital from hired a private investigator to try to locate me because I owed the money. And that's like not a good call you want to have. I have, you know, I have, debt collector show up at my dad's house looking for me trying to serve me and it just got to a point where I just couldn't bear it anymore. It was so heavy that I had to just press the button and when I pressed the button it all stopped. It was quiet. I felt like I could breathe and I'd come to peace with it. I didn't really know what would come next and I didn't know if I wanted to keep doing entrepreneurship or if I wanted to work a regular job. It felt so heavy still. I was essentially a breakup/deaf that I went through. It was my first business, my first baby and I didn't really let myself more not lost. So I decided to sit which was very uncomfortable. After some time of sitting and licking her wounds and only a year after she declared bankruptcy, Erica decided that she was ready to start another business. This time partnering up with a friend who has known some failures in business themselves and together they're trying to start a travel app. Well I want to get into like what is it actually taking to move on, move forward after a business failure? Because when you talk about this new business that you're starting with your best friend, this business doozy, it's on the backs of bankruptcy and some financial challenges for both of you. How do you make this work? I think we just take steps forward. That's really all there is at the end of the day that we can do. We've gotten a lot of rejection. We've gotten a lot of knows but we just have to keep trying other avenues and even with funding for example, I can't go and get a line of credit or get alone or you know there's lots of small business creditors that are there to support you but I burn my bridges with those so I cannot go to get funding from them so we're getting creative and we've always been very scrappy and resourceful and to work exploring other avenues because there's always a way I think if you're creative and you want it about enough, like keep trying different things and don't take no for an answer. What's working for you? Because even with a new business it can be a year or two until you're seeing like reliable profit. So in the meantime, like how are you making your existence work? Like what is it that you're doing? Yeah so Jillian and I, like we're not profitable with doozy and we probably won't be profitable for a while. She has side hustles. I have side hustles. I started posting online and I never intended to build a following and become an influencer but I did. And so that pays my bills. I still have all of these partnerships that come in. It's not as consistent as a regular job would be but that kind of covers my bills. I'm still trying to like get back on my feet and have a healthier income and I think I will get there but I'm still not anywhere near where I want to be financially and I still can't afford to go and rent a condo and I don't even know if I'll be approved because of my credit because it's it's real bad still. So we're staying with friends and I'm very thankful that I have so many people in my life where they can support me in different ways. What entrepreneurship actually really looks like behind closed doors because you're not always making a lot of money. You're scraping the barrel sometimes. What do you count as your biggest success in all of this? Gosh I don't know how much I've grown personally I think is is a big one because all of the things that I went through I went through them for a reason because I'm comfortable talking about them and showing people hey it's okay to go through bankruptcy, to go through failure, to struggle, to have mental health issues. I went through eating disorders. There's all these things that I kind of have overcome and my ability to share them so publicly and openly is something that I'm very proud of. I think I've also learned to redefine the term failure. Like failure, if you Google failure, it says lack of success. It's literally three words. It's all it is. But I think it's the means of trying. Like it means you tried. I think that is a win in itself. I think so many people just don't even give themselves the opportunity to try something because they're scared of looking stupid or screwing up or at the end of the day failing. But and those four and a half years that I built the business I learned so much about myself and so much about what I'm capable of. That's something that I wouldn't trade for anything despite the outcome of the business and going through the bankruptcy. If you why is it after hearing all of these stories, I'm still terrified to fail. Because it's human and we don't want to do it. And even when you know in the long term it might be okay in the moment, you don't know that. It feels like it's the end. Yeah, but it's it's nice sometimes as we reminded that you know what? You take a chance sometimes it may not work out and it's okay. For more CBC podcasts go to cbc.ca/podcasts