So Late In The Day: Dua Lipa & Claire Keegan On Everyday Misogyny

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Service 95 Book Club. Today I'm talking to Claire Keegan about her incredible short story, So Late in the Day. It's not just me who thinks you should read her. George Saunders, another master of the short story, calls Claire one of the greatest fiction writers in the world. I have five books a day, add up to around 700 pages in total, and believe me, not a word is wasted. In So Late in the Day, Claire tells the story of everyday misogyny through the relationship of Kahal and Simee. You won't find any references to the manusphere or toxic masculinity here. Instead it's a quiet study of how the behaviours we learn in childhood can complicate and ruin our adult relationships. And in the process, limit our human potential. A quick note before we begin, it's hard to talk about a short story without giving things away, so this conversation will contain spoilers. For her to come here and court and Irish men and almost marry him was for me an opportunity to show what our misogyny looked like to an outsider. I've seen so many interviews of Olivia Coleman on the red carpet or something and someone goes, "What's your favourite swear word?" and she goes, "F***, and there's something about it that it just feels like the best swear word ever, but when men say it, you can't help but feel attacked by it." It's different. There was a very small library and I sat there every day in red and it saved me. Yeah, books tend to do that. Hi Claire. I don't know. How are you, Duas? Lovely to meet you. I'm so well. I'm so delighted to speak to you. I'm such a huge fan. Thank you so much. I first came across your work in 2022 when I spoke at the Booker Prize and small things like these were on the short list and I read the whole short list that year and I just, I absolutely fell in love with your writing. I'm just so happy to talk to you because your books have just left me wanting more all the time and I'm a little bit of an evangelist actually because I've gifted so many of your books to my friends and my family. You're so cute. I mean, I can imagine you hear that a lot. Well, I'm very privileged to be well read now. It's a very lovely gift. I think and people get very excited when they receive one of your books. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah, that's great. I'm so pleased. Oh, good, good, good. As well as a writer you teach, creative writing. I do. I love teaching. I think teachers are really important. I have a lot to thank some of my teachers for where I am right now who have believed in me very early on. What I loved when I was researching for So Late in the Day is that they're actually started in the classroom on one of your whiteboards as an exercise. And I think it's really beautiful and like this exercise and how fiction can be tense without being overly dramatic, I guess. Do you think that's true? Yes, I think drama is overrated and can be terribly dull. And if you don't believe me, just go off for a long weekend with a traumatic personality and you'll be sorry that you have Monday off. I think all good fiction is drawn to tension and that tension and drama don't actually like each other. I think if they were at the party and tension was there and so drama coming in, tension would want to leave. This tension is actually fed by loss and a central character is somebody who's losing. And when we get tense, we get tense because we are either losing or are afraid of losing something. And that is actually the page turning quality in writing. It's not drama. And I'm sure you sat down to watch something on Netflix and there was nothing on the new stuff only follows chasing each other around with guns and car crashes and helicopters and it was dull as could be. Drama isn't in itself an interest. I find that so interesting to hear you analyse it in that way because I think just that idea, yeah, tension, I've never thought about it in that way but of course you're so right in the sense that is someone experiencing loss or on the hopes that they don't lose something. There is this kind of tension. I actually watched a film this weekend, the drama actually which is funnily enough, it's just very tense. It's the Robert Pattinson's and Deja film and I think the tension in that in that feeling is really interesting. I'd love to start with some questions of my own and then maybe a short reading and then we'll also go on to some questions from service 95 readers from the community if that sounds good to you. Of course. Okay, great. Before diving in, would you mind giving us a quick sense of the story in your own words? Well, I can summarise the story. It isn't possible. You know, I think one of the things authors don't like being asked even though we may not say so, I do say so, is to try and summarise your work because there was a lovely response by Flannery O'Connor, you know, her stories are marvelous but then she said, "I can't explain the story because a story is a way of saying something which cannot be said in any other way." Yeah, so the story does the speaking for itself. It takes every word in the story to say what the meaning is and it's funny. I have a little thing here behind me. One of my students gave me this and this is it. It says, "I write because I don't know what I think until I read what I say and I love that and I think, you know, if somebody asks me to spell a difficult word, it's not that I'm a great speller or anything but I actually have to write it down to be sure that that's how you spell it or that's how you don't spell it in my case, which is often the case. For me, so late in the day, was a story about a man. He's really just a dull, civil servant and he goes to work in an office in Dublin and takes the bus home and he has had some failed relationships with women and I think it's probably due to his lack of generosity." I feel the same way when I write songs, I think, or the emotions kind of come out into the page as I'm writing it and I'm like, "Oh, this is very much about what's going on in my life right now before I even know it myself." So let's just start at the beginning and I mean right at the beginning with the first line, which is on Friday, July 29th, Dublin got the weather that was forecast. I mean, there's something very neat about that line, you know, like everything is proceeding exactly as it's expected, which I found really interesting because I feel like Irish weather is famously unpredictable and then quite quickly you realise that something's off and every time that I read that line, I get chills because I feel like it's such a perfect opener for what's to come. Was that always the first line? "Oh, I'm not sure I'd have to look back on the drafts, but I can't remember beginning the story any other way." I guess an unremarkable man, Karl, but there's this growing sense of unease, you know, he's distracted, he closes his computer, he doesn't save his file, his colleagues are being really nice to him, he's trying to avoid them, which I feel like is something that he does a lot as he's very avoidant in many ways and then it soon really becomes clear and that's something has happened between him and him and Sabine, his French girlfriend. And I'm going to ask you more about both of them, but first I'd love to ask you about the decision that Sabine would be French. Was there something about Ireland and Irish men that needed to be viewed from the eyes of an outsider? "Can you please excuse me for a minute?" "Of course, less than a minute, I have a dog here." "I'm sorry, I adopted a dog from the pound and he thinks that nobody but he should have any attention." "Oh sweet, let's have a lick him." "Oh." "Hello Max, say hello to your auntie V now." "Hi Max." "Let's do a leap." "Oh what a sweetie." "Sorry about this." "Oh good, I'm very happy that Max is joining us." "Please ask the question again, I'm so sorry." "I was asking about the decision that Sabine, Karl's girlfriend, was French, is there something that, is there something about Ireland or Irish men that, you know, they needed to be viewed through the eyes of an outsider?" "I wanted to use Sabine as a character to look at Irish men as an outsider and that's exactly right. That she doesn't come from this culture, she comes from, even though France is a Catholic country, you know, they don't have the sexual perversions that were put on us by the Catholic church here in Ireland. Really Italians, they were French, they were Spanish, the Catholicism there. I don't think it took away from the sensualities of life, the way that it did here in Ireland. And so for her to come here and court an Irish man and almost marry him was from me an opportunity to show what our misogyny looked like to an outsider. I'd love to know about your own experiences growing up in Ireland because I read that you left Ireland when you were only 17 years old to study in the US. And did you feel like you needed to leave at that time or?" Was it more just opportunity came and no I surely did I really wanted to get out it felt like a place where you couldn't shine mmm that you were a second-class citizen um I mean girls for example in the in mass we weren't allowed to serve on the altar because you were dirty you know um and I I just always felt that I needed to get out and and see what life was like elsewhere and if it was as bad elsewhere um and and I really I think I was I was tired from from the time I was a small child of seeing how females were treated like second-class citizens and you know marital rape was legal here till 1990 that's unbelievable I just couldn't understand really why anybody would go to a church and sign a document to say you can do that to me and then you make yourself into a second-class citizen in your own home for the rest of your life so um no it was pro-kill hugely backward and also in the 1980s we had the highest unemployment in western Europe we had you know we we just didn't really have a chance and um contraception was illegal until 1985 that's crazy I yeah I mean I think women's rights have been stripped down for so many years I wonder what it was like for you coming back to Ireland after all that time in the US oh I didn't I didn't find it much changed I was um I came back in 1992 I applied for 300 jobs and got 300 rejection letters so I couldn't get a job even though I had two first class bachelor's degrees I didn't know anybody and um you know who would give me a job I didn't have any pull as they call it here and um I couldn't get a job you know putting hair dryers together or making sausages or just doing anything and it was um it was a time of despair I suppose but the lovely thing was I had a small library in the town where my mother lived my mother and father had separated and um she lived in in a little town called Tullow and there was a very small library and I sat there um every day in red and it saved me yeah books tend to do that it was just wonderful hmm yeah when I look back now I was doing my homework for what I'm doing now but I didn't realize back then that that's what I was doing there's such a such a blessing I think books in many ways when you are trying to escape your reality or what's going on in your life and they serve as such a yeah a getaway you know and maybe like you said like until you write something on the page until you read a book you it's just something about it makes you feel less alone or more understood we're lucky to have brilliant authors like yourself that give us that opportunity as well when I was young we didn't have books in the house we didn't have a library and we didn't have access to reading and now it just feels like that's something free for everybody and I just think it's delightful that you can go online and find all of the constants going at translations of checkoff stories for free and you can go to the library and print them out for free and that nobody nobody really is without books now if they don't want to be and also it's so attractive and intelligent and I don't know if you've ever seen anybody on a train or you know on the bus and they're just lost in a book and I know but yeah I'm instantly finding attractive because they can concentrate because they can concentrate and they can read and that's hot and I completely I spent I spent so much of my childhood in libraries and my mom would take me every weekend and that was really when my love of books came it was you know she would read her books and I would read mine and we would just sit there for hours and hours going back to the book I I feel like you know I feel like you're dropping so many hints and clues about Kaha and some very pretty unappealing traits that he has you know and to be clear we're not talking about anything sinister or dangerous in the in the conventional sense I think you know he's slowly to revealing himself to be a bit mean and not just with money but also lacking like you said a generosity of spirit and I read a quote in an interview with you where you describe him as being very tight with money he's mean he's not going to be able to look at the past and face things he turns his back on it he's just so dishonest he lies to himself he's a piece of work and I was like that's pretty damn thing isn't it yes it is and what I found really clever about this story and and so true is that we've got so used to talking about the manosphere and toxic masculinity and these kind of attention seeking toxic male influences and that's that's actually not what Kaha is at all he he exposes something quite different which is this internalized form of misogyny like learnt behavior and it's almost mundane and you know so it takes a while for it to sink in when you're on the receiving end but I I think it's really interesting that it's not performative and that makes it almost harder to confront yes to to just go daily about what you do without regard and in that fashion makes it less less likely to confront you can't point a finger at it really and it kind of takes a second to understand when you're at the hands of someone who just has this internalized misogyny and you know he's quite judgmental he makes mental notes about women's weight you know he's noticing of subbeens wearing makeup or not I mean how many people would look at a 17th century vermin and be like oh the milkmaid looks idol you know the way didn't it's a milkmaid exactly how of all things of all people for her to be idol you know it's that's very funny but he's you know he's not a very he's not a great catch himself is he you know he seems to be in a dead end job he's boring he fucks up every the every romantic moment that he has you know even his proposal he's just like why don't we marry I really struggled with that scene I was just like that's all you've got to give it's quite why do you think she says yes it's interesting I thought about that a lot in preparation for this and I think us as women we are I don't know we're naturally nurturing sometimes we feel like we can save people we think that maybe people can change there's kind of this inherent love and desire for a happy ending and to think that things might be different you know I think there's definitely some kind of attraction and love there but I think inherently it's it's wanting to to make a change I don't know to see him change I think she wanted a child how you do I think he wanted a child and it's the next thing he asks her and he asks her that instantly yeah to have a baby also he pulls the curtains after after he's notices that there were no children and there were children in the opening paragraph of this story you know I think they both both of them want a child yeah and so they were willing to stay together even in well I think that's the doorway into into having children is to get married in our society and it's very difficult anyway to raise a child and you're all yeah so you need that support system but I don't know for me it was it was really interesting because it's like the second that Sabine moves in you kind of the cracks are really really apparent you hear you know they say if you want to know me come live with me yeah yeah yeah and it's so it's so true I think if two people can live together then it's much easier for them to understand how they will be once a family starts growing and happening you know when a child comes in you know you kind of see your person's traits they really come to life when you spend a lot of time together under one roof and so I thought it was it was very hard to ignore you know he freaks out at her stuff appearing on the shelves and in the wardrobe in her bathroom and tampons and books and shoes and he wants her there but he doesn't want all of her also he didn't help remove yeah there's no scene where he goes to help he goes to help things yeah or lift her things out of the car or the moving van up the stairs nothing like that he's very very ungentlemanly in so many ways you know he wants her there but he doesn't want to make an effort I think there's just a lot of things there that feel like red flags to me for sure in a in a relationship and and I think at that point we kind of start to sense that she's been harboring some doubts of her own I was wondering if if you could read us this passage actually where it was to be in his is telling call about a conversation she had with his colleague Cynthia. Indeed Mrs. Sabine I went out for a drink with one of your colleagues this week she began oh yes she said Cynthia took me to this shellburn I didn't know that you too knew each each other. "We don't really," she said. "She just handles the funding for some of our work at the gallery, in any case. We wound up sharing a bottle of Shebhli. And, told, started talking about men, Irish men. And I asked her, "What is it you really want from us? What is her experience?" Cahal felt a sudden need to get up, but made himself stay in the chair, facing her. "Would you like to know what she said? I'm not sure." He almost laughed. "Then perhaps you can answer. I don't know," he said truthfully. "I've never once thought about it." "But I am not asking you to think about it now." He lifted his hand and reached for her plate, rose and put her plate on the drinking board, under his own before leaning back and holding on to the ledge of the counter. "I really don't know," he said. "What did she say?" "She said things may now be changing, but that a good half of men your age just want us to shut up and give you what you want, that you're spoiled and turn contemptible when things don't go your way. Is that so?" He wanted to deny it. But it felt uncomfortably close. To a truth he had not once considered, it occurred to him that he would not have minded her shutting up right then and giving him what he wanted. He felt the possibility of making a joke, of diffusing what had come between them but couldn't think of anything, and then the moment passed and she turned her head away. That was the problem with women falling out of love. The veil of romance fell away from their eyes, and they looked in, and could read you, but this one didn't stop there. She also said that to some of you we are just cunts she went on, that she often hears Irish men referring to women in this way in calling us whores and bitches. We had already reached the end of the bottle and had not yet eaten, but I remember clearly that's what she said. "Ah, that's just the way we talk here, Carl said. It's just that Irish thing and means nothing half the time." Thank you so much for reading that. You did so well to keep going given how how Max clearly wants all your attention. He felt so ridiculous. Sorry, he hates it. I hope you're enjoying my chat with Claire. Stay tuned for the rest of my conversation, including a few of your questions that I'm going to put to see you in a minute. When I read the book for the first time, I was quite shocked when the C word was introduced because it kind of came out of nowhere. It's not like the book is full of strong language, and I actually read a quote from you about the decision to include it, and you said it's what Irish men often call women here, writing the language people use as part of what a writer does to portray the lives we lead and the world we live in. I found that quite upsetting. I imagine you do too. I guess it's so interesting, and it's so different, at least to me, when women use the word "carn", because it feels like I've seen so many interviews of Olivia Coleman on the red carpet or something, and someone goes, "What's your favourite swear word?" and she goes, "Carn", and there's something about it that it just feels like the best swear word ever, but when men say it, you can't help but feel attacked by it. There's such an intensity attached to it, and it hits completely different. I feel like anytime women use it, it's us almost trying to reclaim the word in our own way. Was it a difficult decision to include it? Oh no, not told. It felt absolutely right. It's the right word. Yeah, right words are never difficult to include. Yeah, I guess it writes itself in that way. I thought it was interesting in the original New York version of the story, Carl's brother, he messages him on what would have been the wedding day and being like, "You okay?" in the book, and you changed this to, "You're better off without that French haul." Why did you make that change? I didn't actually make the change. I submitted the story to the New Yorker pretty much as it is now, and the changes were made by the editor. Then I put the story back the way I wanted when it was published as a story by Faber. The changes that were made, almost all of them were made by Deborah Triesmann, who's the editor of the New Yorker. Did you have any pushback on that or were you okay with the changes that were made? I was okay for the publication in the New Yorker, but I always knew that I would put it back the way I wanted it after it was published in magazine. As it's really interesting, quote, from Bell Hooks in her book The Wheel to Change, where she says, "Ultimately boys and men save themselves when they learn the art of loving." It's not lovely. I know. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. And this is exactly what doesn't happen in the so late in the day. Was there ever a version where you think I was capable of change? I don't think so. I think he's ruined. I mean, I think he was spoiled. And another word for spoiled in the way we use English here is the word ruined. And it means your personality is ruined. And what that means in terms of being spoiled is that you won't ever in your life really be willing to do things you don't want to do to have a better life, which means that it's kind of hopeless. Yeah. And it's certainly hopeless with regard to having a relationship because you just have to do all kinds of things you don't want to do in order to have a good relationship. Yeah. And he's incapable of doing that because he wants to do only what he wants to do. And to do as little as possible. And to not do anything well. And also, it also means that he's not able to shine because I think when we dig deep and we work well and we go beyond what is comfortable, we find out how we can shine. Yeah. And he's not capable of any of that. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like he wants to. There's this deeply uncomfortable scene when Karl is remembering an incident from several years ago. And it's like, Karl, his brother and his dad, and they've just been served dinner by their mother. And they don't even wait for her to sit down to start eating. And I think this is a really important passage. Would you be happy to read it for us? Yes, of course. His mother had served everyone, brought their plates to the table, and they had begun to eat. When she went to sit down with her own plate, his brother had reached out, and quickly pulled the chair from under her, and she had fallen backwards onto the floor. She must have been 60, near 60 years of age at that time, as she had married late. But his father had laughed, while three of them had laughed, heartily, and had kept on laughing while she picked the pancakes and the pieces of the broken plate top off the floor. It's so heartbreaking, honestly. And it's such a pivotal part of the book. I mean, the brothers, they're not boys, they're in their 20s at this point. And it just feels like in that moment that Karl almost does some kind of self-reflection. It's that kind of that almost wanting, but then he pulls back from the brink and just kind of carries on exactly how he always has. It's almost like opening the door and looking in, but closing it rather than going into the room. Yeah, unbelievable. This is a short story, but it also occurred to me that it almost works as like a parable about lazy misogyny. And I think of it as a parable because it justice is done. Karl is mean to his mother, and then he's mean to Sabine, and instead of submitting to this life of a traditional Irish wife, she leaves him. And as a result of his actions, the weddings off, he's got just his cat, late night TV, this fallous cake in the fridge. He loses everything and he ends up lonely. And I think it's a lesson for all of us, you know, readers as much as it is for Karl. He's just not generous and a lack of generosity seems to ruin everything. I don't know anybody who's who's successful, who isn't generous. Yeah. People, I think mistake, success sometimes for, you know, you take as much as possible and give as little as possible. And the opposite in fact is true. It is impossible to sharing without generosity. Yeah. I also think in what you were saying earlier that I just think it's such a reminder for us all more to kind of face up to certain histories in our families that can negatively affect our future. You know, we should be trying to heal the generational trauma rather than pretend that it's not happening. And I think that's something that Karl has, you know, you can see it so clearly as to something that he's seen. And, you know, I've been in relationships where I've seen the other person repeat the same negative pattern that they've learned and childhood over and over again. And, you know, you know, where it stems from, you know, where it's coming from. And it's entirely up to them to try and make a decision and make a change if they're willing to make something work. And I think it's, it's really interesting to see whether somebody changes those rhythms or doesn't. And then and in, you know, in Cahill's world, it doesn't even cross his mind to try and change that or sort out his generational trauma that has been passed down to him. He doesn't really know otherwise. But he also doesn't have the skill because he grew up in misogynistic art. He also doesn't have the skill to do so. The skills to do so. Because it grew on things for a man as well as women, you know, in the classroom, in their sex lives, the sensualities of life. I can't think of any area of life where men also didn't suffer from the loss of the experiences they could have had. Had they grown up respectful towards women and girls? Yeah. The world doesn't like girls. No, we've been dealt the short end of the stick, I think, in many ways. But I do feel there is a little bit of active change happening. There is. Things are changing. I love to see it. I love to stay optimistic about that because I think it's what we have, you know. Yes, I think so too. I think things are much better. I certainly have a completely different life to the life my mother had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wonderful. Returning to the beginning of the book again. And there's this scene where Carl gets the bus home from work. And he sits next to an overweight woman who's slid a bit closer to the window to give him room. And she just wants a conversation with him, you know. And it's just another example of where he doesn't give in at any point. He doesn't give anyone the time of day. He's immediately thinking like, what's this going to cost me? And she's reading a book, the woman who walked into doors. And I looked this up and it's a story by Roddy Doyle about an Irish woman who's in an abusive marriage. And I actually read that Roddy Doyle received a lot of backlash and a lot of hate for this book. And then people said that he's making it up and that he was selling a caricature of Irish men. Oh, no, it's an excellent book. Yeah. I even read, I think, that you've got death threats about it. And like Roddy Doyle, I feel like you're really exposing something uncomfortable about the place that you live and some of the people you live amongst. And did you receive any backlash? No, no, not at all. None. And I didn't receive any for a small things like these either because, you know, that was said in New Ross, which is here in Wexford. And it was, you know, it was a Magdalene laundry in the town. So I did expect to get some criticism from the people of New Ross about representing the town that way. But I got none at all. Because there was a Magdalene laundry there and it's documented. Yeah. I receive lots of responses, really several responses, almost on a daily basis from from readers. And I haven't, I haven't had anything, anything negative at all. Great. I think the women, I do, I know this shouldn't be funny, but I do sometimes meet women and after readings, they come over to get a book signed and they say, you know, I was married to a cohe or I escaped a cohe or I, I was engaged to a cohe or I went out with a cohe and I feel sorry for for men whose name is cohe now. But the reason I chose it was because it was a name that just have a female equivalent. The good thing about lots of women sending you messages about that is at least that they kind of saw the light. I think in those moments, great. I know someone like that, I experienced that and actually your book going back to what we went through earlier. I feel like we're doing a lot of full circles in this conversation is that how much books give people that feeling of being seen, of being understood, of knowing exactly what they went through. And I think that's really, really beautiful. I could keep talking to you all day about this, but I feel like it's time to give some of our service 95 community a chance to ask you some of their questions as well. Thank you. You cool if we just dive in? Of course. Okay. So, Sada has sent a message in saying, "Your story is often hinged on what is not said. How do you decide what to withhold?" Well, thank you for the question. I think I try and leave out anything that's unnecessary. And if it's unnecessary, that's the piece that I live out. But the thing that I leave in must somehow inform what is left out, if that makes any sense. And then I don't want it to be cryptic. I don't like that. I don't know the territories ever we understory. And I like things to be clear and intelligent. And I don't, I don't think it's necessary to go on for very long if you choose the right things. I love that. Thank you for that. Sada actually always sends in really good questions. So, I love that one. Sonja sent something in and says, "Is there something distinct about Irish female writing? Can you separate nation history and the text?" Oh, I don't know, Toul, that I could do that or attempt to do it or even be interested in doing it. I think there's good things and bad things and bodies, hateful and delightful and shining comes from all over the place. You never know where you'll find it or where you won't find it. And it's just a matter of luck and discovery. I don't think there's anything special about Irish women writers or I just think that might be a form of shelvanism. And I'm not a nationalist or a patriot and I don't work for the, for the tourist board in Ireland, whereas bad as anyone. And you just never know where you will find what is good or delightful. That's great. Thank you so much. And the last question is from Ada and says, "If you could add one extra scene to so late in the day, what moment would you explore further and why?" Oh goodness, I've never thought about that. Nobody's ever asked me that. I suppose if I was to add something, I would not add one scene. I might make it a story where we saw more of Sabine. And maybe I would share the point of view between Sabine and what she saw and what she feared and what she wanted. And just as much as I do with the central character of Cahill in the story, I might have given her one of the reins. I like that. But you know, I think that may be another story. Yeah, rather than an addition to this one. Do you think you're going to write Sabine's side? I don't know. I haven't thought about it till now, but when I was talking to you just now, I thought, well, if I don't go off and write that, that would be a good story to write. And I have often wondered about her, what made her go there and try that. But you know, we often try things and fail. And I love that she tried and tried wholeheartedly. Yeah, I think it's part of life's experience and journey. You never really know where it's going to take you. But sometimes it's about going for it jumping into the unknown. And sometimes it could be a very positive experience. And sometimes it's a learning experience. You don't know until you're there. You just don't know. Claire, I can't thank you enough for today. Well, I can. Thank you enough for today. And thank you so much for inviting me on. A fascinating conversation. And it's just been so wonderful. And thank you to Max to you for joining us. I think you're taking a nap right now, kind of. Oh, you're doing. Oh, you're doing interference. Sweet. Oh, it clearly loves you so much. I hope everybody listening immediately rushes to buy all your other books. Well, thank you. And thank you to all your readers. Yeah. And if you're listening in North America, the US edition of Soulate in the day includes two additional stories and Tartica and Walk the Blue Fields, which are well at seeking out, as is all of your other work. I'd also encourage everyone to read Soulate in the day at least twice. Believe me, it really does reveal more each time you come back to it. Please don't forget to visit service95.com and follow us on Instagram @Service95bookclub for more exclusive content from Claire, including her reading list and playlist. Claire, thank you so, so, so much for joining us. Say goodbye. Bye, Max. Say goodbye. Bye. Thanks for listening. Along with my new monthly reads, I'll also be sharing a conversation from the archive. Some of my favourite chats with the world's best writers over the past couple of years. Trust me, you won't want to miss them. Make sure you're following the service95 book club podcast soon. Never miss an episode. And if you love this one, why not leave us a review? Thanks so much for listening and see you next time. [Music]