Snapchat CEO: Why distribution has become the most important moat | Evan Spiegel

You guys have a billion monthly active users. Why is it so freaking hard to build a durable, lasting social consumer product? So much of consumer technology focuses on to have product market fit. People don't spend nearly enough time thinking about distribution and figuring out distribution. I feel like SNAP has always been punching above its weight in terms of just how much new stuff comes out of your team. Stories, AR glasses, swipe-based navigation. We have a very, very small design team that is constantly innovating and creating new things. You're first day that you join the design team, you present work, you're making things. If you want to have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas. People copy you. As a human, how does it feel just to see this consistently happen? 15 years ago, we essentially learned that software is not a mode, which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI. You describe this coming year as the crucible moment. It's a real turning point. We're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on technology. Humanity is far more important because humanity dictates how technology is adopted. Technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt new technology as it comes out. There's going to be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming with AI. Today, my guest is Evan Spiegel, CEO and co-founder of SNAP. Evan is one of the very few humans in the world who has successfully built and scaled a lasting consumer social app. In the 15 years since SNAP chat launched, there are essentially zero social consumer apps that have launched and stuck around. SNAP chat has over 1 billion monthly active users, is generating over $6 billion a year in revenue. People post over 8 billion AR lens photos a day on SNAP chat. And over the years, Evan and his team have invented the concept of stories. They had the first AR glasses product in the market. They invented swipe-based navigation, the camera being primary, and also back in the day, face-swapping, making people look older, and so many of the things that are just copied throughout the entire industry. If this is truly the golden age of consumer products, like many people say AI is going to enable, there's a lot that we can learn about how Evan and his team think and operate and are able to continue innovating. This is a rare podcast interview with Evan and we cover a lot of ground. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny's product pass.com for a year-free of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Evan's Speagle. Evan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to. I want to start with just trying to understand and help people understand why is it so freaking hard to build a durable, lasting consumer product and in particular, a social consumer product. And just to give people this context, I don't think people realize this, but since you launched 15 years ago, there's basically a TikTok, which is not really social. It's more of a media platform, I'd say, and then maybe Threads, which I think is cheating because it just sits on top of Instagram. Basically, nothing else has worked other than Snapchat 15 years ago. And in spite of everyone just, like, everyone innately just wants to build a consumer product, social app, it's just like where everyone first goes, everybody fails. Nothing works. Why is it so hard? What do you think people don't get? Well, I think it's really interesting in terms of the examples that you just shared, right, of TikTok and Threads, because you just shared two examples of people who figured out distribution. And I think that that's actually one of the hardest things to figure out in consumer technology today. We were so fortunate when we created Snapchat, the mobile phone, in the app store, we're just getting started. So people were downloading lots of new apps all the time. They were really excited about trying new services. Instagram, I think, it started a year before Snapchat or something like that. So there was a real appetite to try new apps and new services. And that's not the case today. It's a lot harder to get distribution for new ideas and new services. People aren't downloading as many apps now as they used to. And both TikTok and Threads figured out distribution, which is why I think there are more recent examples of success. TikTok did it with money, which I actually thought was really innovative. They spend billions of dollars subsidizing both sides of their video marketplace, acquiring customers to watch videos and then paying creators to make videos. And so they were able to bootstrap their ecosystem. And I think with Threads, obviously, they were able to leverage the amazing distribution that Meta has across all their other products. So I think so much of consumer technology focuses on, am I building the right product? Do I have product market fit? Have I built something that's really going to resonate with customers that they're really going to want to use all the time? And I think people don't spend nearly enough time thinking about distribution and figuring out distribution. And that seems to me to be a huge differentiator. So as I reflect on the early days of building Snapchat, the thing that we figured out in terms of distribution, especially when it comes to social, was that back then people believed that there were network effects and social networks that meant that the more people you had using the service, the stickier that it is. And so there was no way to beat the biggest networks because those were the most valuable. And what Snapchat figured out that was, I think, different, was that despite the fact that there were much bigger networks that connected more people, what really mattered was connecting you to the right people. And so if you could just connect someone not to all their friends, but to their best friend, to their partner, to their spouse, the people that they cared most about in the world, that that's where the majority of the value is in the network. And so that's what really allowed us to grow in those early days. You know, we had the benefit of the App Store and mobile distribution, but we also had a different way of growing our service, which wasn't about having the most friends. It was about having your close friends. That is so interesting. It's something that I've been thinking a lot about actually this idea of distribution because of AI. If you think about just where AI has come into the market, it's started originally just like helping people auto-complete code. There's something I've been talking a lot on this podcast. So it's like, okay, auto-complete code, okay, now it's writing all our code. Okay, now it's reviewing our code and now it's testing itself. And now it's going to help us come up with ideas. So it's like starting in the middle of the product development process and expanding out. And I feel like it will be very good at coming up with great ideas and developing strategy. Like, it's going up the, I don't know, the funnel or the timeline of building a product. And I feel like distribution is where it ends up being what ends up being the new mode and the new biggest challenge because AI is not going to really help you there. So that's really interesting that that's even more so true for consumer products. I think that's absolutely the case. And the only thing I would say is you know, the most exciting times in technology are when there are new platforms that get created. And that tends to be where a lot of the value comes from. You think about, you know, a lot of the big consumer technology companies today, they were really born out of mobile, right? Whether it's Uber you know, Snapchat, some of those early generation companies that really got distribution and built themselves on mobile. And so I think as we look forward to sort of these next generation form factors, things like glasses, there's going to be a whole new set of opportunities and a whole new surface for people to build generational consumer companies. And I'm really excited about that. Especially if they have distribution already feels like that's going to be like, I'm just worried for startups. It's going to be very hard to get distribution just like if there's so much launching every day, so much to pay attention to. And it just feels very hard for a startup to get any attention with existing, you know, against existing incumbents. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, Work OS. 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Work OS allows you to build faster with the lifeful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to WorkOS.com to make your app enterprise ready today. Something that has always been really interesting to me about Snapchat is it feels like you guys have just innovated so much over the years. You guys basically just invent all the things. People copy you, benefit greatly from it, and it's just kind of wild to watch. And just like a few examples that come to mind stories. You guys created, you were very early on AR glasses. You guys launched spectacles before MetaGud into the stuff. Swipe based navigation. I think you guys started the idea of holding to do a video versus a photo. There's probably a bunch. First of all, what's the next thing someone's going to steal, do you think? Oh gosh, well, I just saw Instagram plus launch. So I think that's the latest rip, which is a subscription. Yeah, I think we just hit 25 million subscribers on Snapchat plus more than a billion revenue run rate. So I think probably enough to get Meta's attention. It's a good time to copy. And the plus that he's just even taking the plus as the name. Oh my god. Let me just ask you like as a as a human. How does it, what does it, how does it feel just to see this consistently happen to you? You guys come up with something awesome. Someone rips it off, benefits hugely from it, and you just have to keep doing that again and again. You know, it's certainly better than making stuff that people don't want to copy. So I think In many ways, it's a blessing that we've been able to continue to innovate to make new things that really resonate with folks and that ultimately people want to end up copying from from snap. So I think it certainly beats the the alternative, but it does You know mean that we have to be really thoughtful about our strategy. And so I think you know one of the things it's been It's been an interesting time for me to reflect a lot on your strategy over the last 15 years because you know 15 years ago We essentially learn that software is not a moat, right? Which is something that everyone is discovering today with AI, right? But 15 years ago because all the software features that we could create were so easily cloned by our competitors We started to think about how to build a more durable business how to build a business You know that had bigger and more effective modes one of the first things we did was focus a lot On building ecosystems, right? Whether those are you know the relationships between creators and snapchatters whether that's the Platform we built around augmented reality where you know developers have built millions of these lenses So it's very easy to copy hard or you know software features. It's very hard To copy or to to replicate a full ecosystem or a platform And so you know We realized that the more that we could build a platform around our business the more that we could build an ecosystem with creators and developers the harder it would be for folks To just copy that and then it also informed a lot of our thinking about investing in other places that are really hard to copy including hardware where it's really really challenging You know to copy our are fully vertically integrated stack around augmented reality So I'm certain there's a lot more to talk about There but I think you know we learned early on that software is easy to copy and so it's really important to build more durable notes That's really interesting hearing Hearing this from you and I was gonna get to this later But we can talk about this now this big investment you've been putting into hardware like you would think network effects would be the Moat that's what everybody's always trying to Get to because that's classically a great mode Are you saying that that's maybe not even as great a moat or that's just not enough and then you need something more like say hardware I don't I think network effects are certainly an important piece of the puzzle for sure But I don't think there are enough when it comes to these sorts of software You know software cloning and so you know despite the fact that we've got a ton of patents and we protected all these ideas The way that it works in in software is that it's quite easy You know for folks to copy or iterate on top of these ideas And so I think in addition to network effects. It's really important to try to build you know businesses that are more Defensible by by truly building out a platform that can support relationships between creators developers and the community because that That and of itself we found is incredibly difficult to copy It's so interesting like if you think about it you're working on two of the hardest types of businesses a consumer social Platform and hardware And I love that you're doing that And this hardware investment you've been added for a long time there you had spectacle the ad drones I don't think people remember yet is drone they could take photos of you And then you have specs coming out is it specs or spectacles the name of what's coming out today by the way Uh specs is coming out this year. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're gonna talk about it, but just Maybe you've already answered it. Why this is something you're so passionate about but why why this kind of ongoing investment in hardware Well, I think to like take a huge step back um I love computers. I grew up Using computers all the time I built my own computer when I was in middle school Uh, you know, I fell in love with graphic design and would spend like every lunch period in the computer lab And I think one of the things that I noticed about computers and I think today with mobile phones Is that in many ways they isolate us from one another right? They actually take us out of our social interactions They took me off the you know playground to recess and you know look You know put me into the the computer lab or you know if I look at our 15 year old today and his friends right you know Sometimes when they're hanging out they're all looking down at their phones even though they're all together And so I think there's just such a big opportunity to build technology that actually brings us together that keeps us grounded in the real world Rather than you know removing us from it And that's something that we realized early on with Snapchat right we were innovating building you know lenses and augmented reality But ultimately we saw that people were using AR on these tiny little phone screens right that required you to use your thumbs to interact And so you know it's almost like interacting with the world through like a keyhole You know rather than actually saying grounded and being able to interact together with friends So it just seems so obvious that like as computers play a bigger and bigger role in our lives You know, I think today people spend seven or eight hours a day on average on screens That like something has got to change to make this technology fit better into our lives right we get enormous value from computers But at the same time I think the cost is is quite meaningful and and I think You know they need to evolve so you know with the early with the early version of of spectacles I guess that was back in 2014 or something like that You know the initial idea was just to get the camera off the phone right out of your pocket and you know allow you to more easily You know take snaps out in the world um, but we then sort of built a roadmap from there right where we added a second camera to get depth We added a display to be able to overlay You know digital objects into the world and help you interact with them and then with the last generation In 2024 we released the our operating system which now allows developers to build full featured software Inside of specs, you know in preparation for the the consumer So I don't know I think the time is right for a new a new type of computer. I think people are frustrated You know with the cost of using phones and computers today they're kind of all hunched over like gremlins and you know we can build A new computer we have built a new computer that brings people outside that helps them connect together with their friends That freeze up to actually use their hands To interact with the world and and you know that to me is really exciting I think it's it's a whole new chapter and gosh I mean what it's been 20 years or something since the the iPhone so it's it's about time for something new I think so I got a early preview of the specs and it's extremely cool I learned how to be an airbender I put a plansel over my house It's drawing all over the place and it's in there's multiplayer features, which is very cool I think it's part of the idea right is you're connecting with people versus sitting like a VR environment on on your own Like I worry about that being connected all the time So I imagine that's like a new thing we have to figure out How do we not just get hooked on just watching things out of the side instead of looking and so on with Uh, do you have any I thoughts there just like is there a solution to that other than just like social norms? I do think social norms will Play a big role, but I also think one of the things people experience with AR you know specs unlike you know these heads up display glasses They don't just put in annoying like you know little screen that stuck to your face On the glasses they actually like anchor content in the world um which is really different right they um you know Put put that content directly In your field of view rather than requiring you to like look down at some little screen or like get some text alert or notification So I think you know Frankly, I don't think those use cases are very compelling like I don't think receiving phone notifications on your face is like you know a A valuable You know proposition for most folks so I don't think we necessarily have to worry about that because I think most people don't want that I think like what it is going to be really important with specs is showing people All the incredible new ways they can hang out and connect together with their friends wearing wearing specs um But I don't think it'll be you know disruptive or notification based or something like that one of the things that I really dislike about the heads up display glasses Is when you're looking at the little you know heads up display in the corner You're actually looking at like your friends crotch You know while you're talking to them if you check the heads of display So the position is just very strange and I don't think that that's something that really is resonating With customers nor do I think that's something that's going to become like a widespread you know behavior I want to go back to this idea of how um how to innovate I feel like snap is always been punching above its weight in terms of just how much new stuff comes out of your team How many like inventions happen Considering the size of the company and the and the history What do you find is needs to be true for innovation to happen? What do you what do you do to allow for all these great ideas to emerge? The best sort of like academic overview or summary I think comes from a guy Safi Bakal who wrote a book called Lune Shots It's really worth reading. It's all about the innovation process and actually when I read it I was like oh my gosh that kind of explains a lot of how we think about innovation at at snap and I think to summarize the academic version we can talk about like what we've developed and built at snap but like to summarize You know essentially his findings or that you know Basically if you want to deliver a product at scale you usually need quite a large organization a large organization You'd hierarchy and structure a lot of operational rigor And as soon as you have an organization that's very large and very structured like that People become very focused on getting a promotion right getting you know into the next step of the hierarchy And that means that all of a sudden they become a lot more riskabers They're not really as willing to try new things. They're very focused on you know achieving the the goals that have sort of been set for them in this operational hierarchy And that is that makes it very very challenging to innovate Now on the flip side You know structures that are are really healthy and constructive for innovation you know typically are very very flat Right, that's the same for our design team for example where there's no one that has a fancier title or a role There's a lot of flexibility in terms of the ability to try new things and fail quickly and put up you know crazy ideas And you know what what he basically finds is that the companies that are very successful actually have both types of organizations inside their company And that the leaders of the organization are the ones who are responsible for creating a healthy functioning relationship between the two types of organizations. Because what ends up happening in a lot of companies is that the small innovative team becomes critical of the large organization. They're so bureaucratic and slow. They don't innovate, things like that. And then the larger organization is like, oh, what are these jokers doing? Just innovating. They're not really driving the business. They're not supporting our customers. And so a lot of tension actually arises from the different organizational structures. And so the leadership responsibility, and I think, you know, Safi does a really good job looking throughout history. What leaders have cultivated really constructive and powerful relationships between, you know, the more innovative or flat parts of the organization and the more structural, you know, structured and hierarchical parts of the organization, you know, how you create that mutual respect, how you create that dialogue between those parts of the organization is so important. And so, you know, when I read that, I was like, wow, that actually sounds quite similar to what we have at Snap. You know, we have to run a large public company, serve almost a billion customers. That means, you know, our service needs to be really reliable. And it means that we need to operate, you know, really, really effectively to serve our customers. And at the same time, we have a very, very small, you know, it sort of oscillates between like nine and 12 people design team that is constantly innovating and creating new things. And I think, you know, the beauty of what I love about Snap is that the dialogue between those two teams is where a lot of that innovation happens because a lot of our engineers, you know, work into serve our customers or working on reliability have a bunch of great ideas and so do our designers. And as long as they're in dialogue, you know, really great things can happen. There's someone, I forget who this was, but they describe this approach as the fast thinking and slow thinking part of the organization, kind of like Kenamon's system one system two approach. It's interesting, the fast moving, let's say, what do you, what do you kind of call this innovation team or do you have a label for this like, let's come up with the new ideas part of the work? Well, I think it's really important to acknowledge that like new ideas come from everywhere and we want that. But I think the design team in particular, it's really important. We call the design team like it's really important that they have a flat non-hierochical structure, you know, where new ideas can come from anywhere. I mean, I think that that is absolutely critical. So in terms of how you operationalize this, is that the key to the innovation you've seen as this like specific small design team who can work like talk about just how you actually operationalize this sort of way of working? Yeah, I mean, I think it's an important part of it. But a lot of how we built Snap was modeled actually on mine and Bobby's original relationship, right? Where like Bobby, you know, has a computer science, you know, heavy duty computer science and stats background, you know, mathematical and computational science. But he really likes design and likes thinking about, you know, building things for customers and empathizing with them. I have a design background right. I was in, you know, in the project design program back at school, which actually was like part of the mechanical engineering department at the time. I took some computer science classes. So I, you know, sort of kind of under, you know, you know, knew what I was talking about when I came to computer science. So we both like had mutual respect for each other and our skill sets in our backgrounds and both enjoyed talking together about the types of products we wanted to create. And that dialogue created, you know, a lot of innovation. And so a lot of how we've thought about growing the company over time is like strengthening that dialogue between engineers and designers and creating, you know, an environment where, you know, folks feel comfortable throwing out really crazy ideas. But I think, you know, for the design team in particular, the thing that is probably most important is the velocity of design work. So I typically meet with our designers for a couple hours every week and we just look at work. I mean, new work every week, you know, hundreds of ideas, I would guess, you know, on a weekly basis that, you know, to me, you know, if I think about where I learned how to design and build things, I have sort of an interesting combination because, you know, I went to Stanford for the product design program, which is really focused on empathy, right, in this iterative process of understanding what people want and building prototypes and iterating, but really centered on empathy, right, human center design. And then at the same time, I'd also been to art schools. So I had studied at art center, I'd studied at Otis here in Los Angeles, both, you know, great art schools. And so I was used to this like grinding, you know, expectation that you're making new work all the time and then just an absolutely brutal critique process, you know, on a regular basis. And so, you know, for me, as I thought about, you know, the parts of my education that I really liked, it was this combination of really developing empathy with people and what, you know, the types of products that they want in their lives, but at the same time having this really high velocity, you know, work ethic where you're not just like thinking, you know, all the time about, you know, new new products, you're actually making stuff every week all the time and then you're talking about it as a team because that critique process is where so much of the learning sort of happens. So, you know, I would say that the velocity of work, you know, is really important because our favorite saying is, you know, if you want to have a good idea, you have to have lots of ideas. That's really, really important. And to say to Keith Roboi on the podcast, I don't know if you know this about his, he has many contrarian takes. One is if you're building a consumer product, do not talk to customers, like not only is it not useful, his advice is it's harmful because it can infiltrate your subconscious and it just doesn't lead to great things. What's your perspective on that? Wow, that's really interesting. I would say you have to talk to customers, you have to share your idea, you should share your ideas quickly as possible, as frequently as possible. It doesn't mean you need to take people's advice or feedback, but it's really important, I think, to listen. And I think for me, you know, it's, you know, it's not like the survey model of listening. I don't think that's particularly helpful, but I think going deep and talking with someone for an hour, two hours about how do they use technology? How does it fit in their lives? How do they feel about, you know, the products they're using? You can learn so much. And I think, you know, customers are an endless source of inspiration when it comes to building products. So pro, pro talk into users, because I feel like you've been really good at just like, here's what it'll be. And here's how it should be. And even though people may not understand this, as what it should be, I trust them, it'll work really well. What's that balance of just like, here's how, how, what I'll pay attention to, here's what I want. Well, let's use stories as an example, right? So, you know, back then, we were hearing from customers all the time, I want to send all button. I want to send all button, you know, it's so annoying to select everybody on my list of friends and Snapchat. If you just give me a send all button, then I can blast, snap, everybody all day long. And that would be really great. And at the same time, we were talking to people about their use of social media, right? And they're like, oh gosh, social media, I feel all this pressure, right? Everything I put up there is permanent all the time. You know, it's got all these likes and comments. So there's all this judgment. So I only feel like I can put like pretty and perfect things up there. You know, and I just don't like that pressure. That doesn't feel good. I actually love the way that Snapchat allows me to just express myself and share with my friends without that, that sort of judgment and pressure. And so we thought that was really interesting. And so, you know, we dug deeper into the, you know, how people were using social media. We found that one of the things they thought was really weird was that everything was in reverse chronological order and the feed. So the feed back in the day, the timeline, right? Like, you know, when people posted photos, you know, they would always find that like the end of the birthday party appeared first in the feed, right? And then the middle and then the, you know, the beginning of the party. So everything was sort of, you know, just like played in reverse in the feed, which was really strange to folks. So we listened to all of that, right? And heard all of that. But then we came up with something totally new and different, which were stories, right? That were responsive to the feedback, right? They didn't, you know, create a send-all button, but they did create a way to easily share with all of your friends without spamming them all day long. They removed, you know, public metrics. They didn't have, you know, likes and comments and things like that to reduce pressure. They disappeared after 24 hours so that everyone could start the day fresh again, you know, the next day. And they, you know, maybe most importantly were in chronolops' quarter, which is the way that people have told stories, you know, since the since the beginning of time. So I think that's an example where like listening is incredibly valuable. All of those insights that we, you know, received just from listening to folks made a huge difference in the project design process. But we didn't build exactly what they asked for. We empathized and then, you know, came up with something new. And that's such a great story. I love hearing these stories of features that everyone's using now and how they came to be. Was there, was there like a moment of just like this is the way this, the story concept that you remember? Was it kind of this very gradual evolution? It was iterative because in a lot of ways, some of the early ideas, you know, started more around like a status update, you know, that, that was sort of like, you know, how could you know what your friends on Snapchat were up to even if you weren't sending snaps back and forth. And so, you know, it sort of started there. And then, you know, again, through talking to people and iterating, understanding what folks were really looking for. We ended up, you know, ended up with stories and some of the gestures, you know, that people maybe take for granted today, being able to tap forward through stories and backwards through stories, full screen, right, vertical content. Those were all really new things at the time. Is there another story of something that you all build that just like was interesting and of how came to be these stories are so interesting and people don't know these histories? You know, one of my favorite stories was around screenshot detection actually in the early days because when we first built Snapchat and we shared with people, "Oh, you could send photos to disappear." Everyone said, "No, you can't. You can always take a screenshot. What do you mean? You can send things to disappear." That makes no sense. And so, you know, we thought a lot. I remember that summer, you know, after school, we went home, we're working on my dad's house and Bobby and I were just going back and forth. And we were like, you know, we were having fun using the product. We were sending, you know, photos back and forth. But people would just keep saying, "Well, this, like, this is not about disappearing photos because you can just save them. Like, I don't get it." And one of the things we invented at the time, we figured out a way. We realized that if you were pressing and holding to open a snap and left your finger on the screen, and you took a screenshot, it would basically trigger an event on the phone essentially that made, the phone would essentially report that your finger had lost contact with the screen. That's what the screenshot mechanism did. Even though Apple didn't provide an API at the time to let you know that the screenshot had been taken, there was a way for us to essentially detect this touch event to learn that a screenshot had happened and then we would just send a notification back to the sender that, oh, the recipient had taken a screenshot. That for us in the early days, really resonated with our community because they didn't mind if somebody saved one of their snaps. They just wanted to know. I think that early invention was one of the first things that really got a lot of traction in the early days. I think it helped Snapchat spread as a new way of communicating. That is really cool. I can't imagine Snapchat existing without you figuring that out. That feels like such a core mechanic. Something that is also really, I'd say famous in the PM community about Snap is you guys waited a long time to hire product managers. I've done all these research reports on just like how long it took the top companies to hire their PMs and the number I saw is you had 200 employees before you hired your first PM. I'm curious if you think that was a mistake waiting that long and just your current thoughts on product managers just like how they fit into Snap. A lot of people listening to this are PMs and so I'm just curious how you feel. A lot of my view of product management was actually driven by my view of designers and the role that designers should play. One of the things that I was concerned about in the tech community, if you look at the traditional tech or structure, designers really are producing visuals. They're not really producing the product direction or the strategy or the vision or net new innovation. They're really responsive actually, I think in many cases to the PM saying this is what we're building now go make me some visuals. I absolutely did not want that type of culture to take root because again, as I mentioned, we modeled a lot of the way that we developed products here at Snap on that early relationship between myself and Bobby. Really this harmonious relationship between design and engineering and how important that is that dialogue is to build and great things and great products. I think in the early days, my view was not that we don't need PMs, my view is that designers should do that work. That's essentially what we would say to our designers, which was like, hey, if you need PM support, why don't you just do it yourself? What's the big deal? I think that that really helped, frankly, designers play a more active role in the product development process. Today, at a company operating at our scale, if you look at the legal requirements, our approach to trust and safety, it really does take a village to get a new product off the ground and product managers play a really important coordination role in all that. In addition to synthesizing, for example, data science analysis and bringing together the working group to try to solve problems or innovate or make the product better. As the organization grows and there becomes, all of these different capabilities that the company didn't have in the early days, whether it's data science, you name it, product managers play a really important role in bringing all those folks to the table and making sure we deliver the right thing at the right time. I am so excited to tell you about this season's supporting sponsor, Vanta. Vanta helps over 15,000 companies like Cursor, Ramp, Duolingo, Snowflake, and Atlassian earn and prove trust with their customers. Teams are building and shipping products faster than ever things to AI. But as a result, the amount of risk being introduced into your product and your business is higher than it's ever been. Every security leader that I talk to is feeling the increasing weight of protecting their organization, their business and not to mention their customer data. Because things are moving so fast, they are constantly reacting, having to guess at priorities and having to make do without data solutions. Vanta automates compliance and risk management with over 35 security and privacy frameworks, including SOC 2, ISO 27,0001 and HIPAA. This helps companies get compliant fast and stay compliant. More than ever before, trust has the power to make or break your business. Learn more at vanta.com/lini. And as a listener of this podcast, you get $1,000 off Vanta. That's vanta.com/lini. There's this interesting question that everyone's asking right now, Mark Entryson put it really well when he was on the pod. There's this kind of like three way standoff right now between PMs designers, engineers where they each think they are the future and you don't need the other with AI. And everyone's wondering who's going to what's the more important core skill? I imagine your sense is now AI makes designers even more powerful. And so this is even more the way to approach. Talk about just like how you think this shifts this triad with AI enabling people. Well, it sounds highly dysfunctional if folks are having that standoff. That is not not a good thing. But I do like I do like that people are thinking about doing work really differently. I think that's imperative at this moment of time. The rate of change is extraordinary. I look at I do think designers feel vindicated in a lot of ways, right? You know, a lot of designers had parents who were saying, why aren't you studying computer science? You know, what are you going to do with this skill set drawing things? You know, this doesn't make any sense. And I think today, you know, a lot of our designers are now shipping code, which is extraordinary, right? And that's a really big and really meaningful change in terms of the way that the design works here at Snap and the way the creative process works. And so I think we're moving friction from the creative process and being able to go from idea to impact at, you know, the scale of almost a billion people using Snapchat. It's really empowering and exciting for designers who feel like these tools, you know, maybe level the playing field to some extent for creative people. Yeah, what I feel like I don't see this happening yet, but I feel like because now it's so much easier to build, people are shipping all these okay things. And it feels like design should have its moment in glory right now as a differentiator of like, okay, this is actually awesome. I haven't felt that yet. And I'm curious if that's what will begin to happen. Well, I think for us design actually has always operated as like a bottle neck at the company, which is incredibly important, right? It's intentional that things need to be approved by design to ship. And sometimes that really annoys people, you know, and it does slow down the shipping process. Sometimes it means that if you don't know how to work well with design or get your ideas in front of design that like some really innovative or cool new thing developed by, you know, a PM or developed by an engineer, maybe doesn't get shipped as fast as it should. But that bottle neck is really, really important because that's what results in a cohesive customer experience. And I think, I think you can see when an app has been built by teams who are responsible for different pages of the app, right, or different parts of the experience, but there isn't really like a cohesive through line. And I think for us at Snap, having design really actually be that bottle neck in terms of helping to manage what we're shipping and what it looks like and how it all works together, I think is really important. It's a good segue to something I wanted to ask you about, which is you're famously very in the weeds on everything that is going on. All the things that are shipping, you're very close to the pixels. I'm curious how that's evolved for you over time. Like, are you still in there looking at everything that's about to ship? And what's your just philosophy on founders having to be involved in the, let's say the pixels and the details of the product? First and foremost, like, yeah, this is what I love to do. Like, I love building things. I love, making new product services for our community. That is what drives me. I really, really enjoy that part of the process. So it's not work to me. It's something that I really just love doing and love doing together with our team. And so I think for me, in addition to all the great people I get to work with here at Snap, the thing that wakes me up with a smile on my face every morning, the reason why I'm skipping to work is because I am in the weeds on what we're building and shipping to our community. That being said, there are always smarter, better, more talented experts, you know, working on all the different things that we have going on. But I really do like staying close to what we're, what we're creating. I don't think it's relevant just to founders. I think no matter what type of company you're running or your role in the company, staying close to your customer, staying close to the product and the way that it's serving your customer is the fundamentally most important thing you could possibly do. I think like I absolutely subscribe to like the old school, like walk the floors, talk to your customers, get out there and stay in touch with what's actually happening with your service, with your community, with your team. And I think that's probably the most important job that any leader can do in any company to stay close to their customers, stay close to their team. Do you feel like especially for a consumer and consumer social product, this is extra important to just be like extremely in the weeds on everything that is shipping and say having designed your design team have to prove everything. You feel like that's especially important for a consumer. I don't think it's especially important for a consumer. I think it's especially important for any company that wants to deliver great products to their community. Right? Look, companies have different points of strength, right? And differentiation. But if you want to differentiate on the product experience, I think it's really important that leaders stay stay very close to that. Is there anything especially look for in the designers you hire, knowing that they're basically running the show and just approving everything and just kind of like the right hand to Evan? Is there anything in particular you look for to when you're hiring these designers? Yeah, there's a couple really important things. First of all, we make all of our hiring decisions just based off portfolio. So that's really all we want to see. I really don't care where you board or your level of experience. In fact, most people join our design team right out of school, not from a big tech company or something like that. And really what I'm focused on is understanding the portfolio. And I want to see two things from the portfolio. The first is a really wide range. And that is the difference between art and design. So there are lots of people who have a very distinct style. Right? They have a very distinct way of building things and creating things. That really is art. Right? They're expressing themselves and their own personal point of view on the world. And it can be very beautiful, but it is not designed. Design is really about empathizing with your customer, empathizing with your audience, your viewer, whoever it is, and then building something that really resonates with them. And that means you need to have an extraordinary amount of range. You've got to be able to build and create things that look totally different. So what I'm going through at portfolio, the first thing I'm looking for is like, are they building stuff that all looks the same? Or are they building things that look really different? Right? That have been responsive to different sets of needs. And that's how I know that they're a designer and not just an artist. And then the other thing I want to understand, and typically, I interview every designer that joins our team. And what I want to understand is why and the story behind the work that they created. So typically, what I'll do is just say, hey, pick something in your portfolio. Anything you feel strongly about it, if you could love it, hate it, I don't care. You just have to feel strongly about it. And just tell me the story of why you made it and what you learned through that process. And I think pretty quickly, you can understand someone's process in terms of building something or inventing something. How do they go about it? And I'm really trying to make sure that we have people who have different ways of doing that on our team. One of the strengths of our design team has been that people come from lots of different backgrounds. They might come from 3D animation, or they might come from electrical engineering. And that's a real strength to have folks who see the world differently and have totally different sets of skills. So as I was preparing for this chat, I talked to a bunch of people that worked at Snap over the years. And I've integrated their ideas throughout already. But one that came up that I thought was interesting is I hear that you spent a lot of time developing Young Design Talent. And that's a big focus of yours. Can you just talk about how you develop Young Design Talent? Well, I think the number one way to develop Young Design Talent is just help them make lots of stuff and get a lot of feedback from whether it's our customers or their teammates or myself directly. And so one of the things that we do that's different at Snap is your first day that you join the design team you present work. And it's really, really important that the first day that you show up on the team, you're making things. And that just sets the tone for the rest of your experience on the design team and growth on the design team. Because really, that's what we're all about. And so I think folks who can get comfortable very quickly in that velocity of making things, that's where the ego sort of melts away. Because when you're creating 1,000 new ideas, who cares, and most of them are not great ideas? That's totally fine. What we want to get rid of is that sense of preciousness that people have around ideas where they feel like, oh, I've got this one really perfect, great idea. And if people don't love it, that means that I'm not a great designer. It's like, no, that's ridiculous. We all need to just create as many ideas as possible. That will lead us to some really great ideas, hopefully, over time. And so I think for young designers, that establishing that velocity of ideation very early on is really, really important. And then the other thing we do that I think is different, although I don't know. I've never really worked anywhere else. Is we don't allow designers to get stuck on specific products or verticals for very long. We like to make sure people are rotating through different parts of the product to bring new ideas and fresh perspectives and also to avoid getting bored. Like if you're a great designer and you're stuck designing the chat experience for three years, how boring is that? It's really exciting. I think it's snap to be able to work across all of these highly engaged product services. We have one of the largest maps in the world. We have this huge, the biggest augmented reality platform. These are really exciting opportunities for designers. And it's important that we are rotating them across all of these different products so they're not getting stuck. I had Jenny Wann on the podcast. She was the head of design for cloud and co-work and she was like a director at Figma. And then she came to Anthropic and moved to just IC design again and asked her what's the hardest part of that move. And she said it's just all the crits that she has to deal with now. It's just so much criticism and constant feedback. And she forgot about that part of it. So it's interesting that such a core part of the way you, like the thing that people have to learn essentially and get good at. - Well, and one of the things that's so important right about our design team and our design culture, one of the things that we try to do is there is no gate to showing me work every week. So there is no, you don't like any idea. It doesn't matter, you know, how good people think it is, how bad is you can bring it to that design meeting, get it on the list and share your work and your idea. And that is so important because I think to your point, you know, sometimes people over rely on this critique process and great ideas get filtered out. And so I think creating this culture on the team where like you can bring anything to the design meeting, there's no, you know, filtering process. I think it's just so important. - You mentioned AI, how designers are shipping code. I have a friend who works at a big tech company and he just said all the design team they're required to ship like, I don't know, 10 PRs a month or something like that or a quarter, which is such a new warhold. I guess one is just like, how do you think about designers to shipping code? Is that like just do it if you can or is there like a requirement sort of thing? And broadly, I'm just curious how AI is changing the way your team operates. What are just like a few things that have been impactful and how your team operates that are AI driven? - Taking a step back, it's definitely not a requirement to ship code on the design team, but I think people are so passionate and curious about learning new things. I mean, one of the things, you know, we've always tried to do on the design team is just figure it out. Right? I remember in the early days of some of the 3D graphics stuff that we were trying to do, one of our team members had never done 3D graphics before. And they're like, okay, let's just figure it out. Right? So they took some online tutorials and like, boom, like we were off to the races. So I think the design team has always been really flexible in terms of their curiosity, learning new things. And so I don't think you have to like push people or create a requirement or something like that for folks to want to adopt new tools and want to ship code. I think, you know, the big question now that everyone and anyone thinks they can, you know, submit a PR is like how we don't break things at a billion, you know, or nearly a billion user scale, right? That's really important. So I think what we've really tried to do is also develop AI tools and guardrails to make it easier for more people to, you know, participate and submit code but also reduce the likelihood that, you know, we're gonna have some sort of bugs. So, you know, we've got automated code review now. We've, I think automatically detected like close to 10,000 bugs at this point, probably. You know, we've got, we have a system at Snap where, you know, on the internal version of the app, you can shake to report, you know, your problem and agents now, you know, debug exactly what happened, what went wrong and, you know, can actually like, suggest a fix and I think, you know, in pretty short order, it'll be implementing the fix as well, which is pretty crazy. So I think, you know, taking a step back, there's so much excitement around the way that AI is, is gonna change the way that companies work. Obviously software companies in particular, like ours, I think, are on the cutting edge of the way that AI is changing, how things get built and what gets done. We really wanted to bring some like order to that chaos. And so the way that we did that was really by starting with the jobs to be done for our community and our advertisers. So getting really, really basic and, you know, straightforward on okay, you know, for Snapchatters, right? Or jobs to be done, it's as simple as like, get people to download the app, right? Get them to add their close friends, you know, get them to, you know, I don't know, use lenses, something like that. On the advertiser front, right, it could be, you know, getting bringing people into the ad platform, configuring their campaign, et cetera. And so by listing out all these jobs to be done, you know, really for the community journey and for advertisers as well, it became very clear where we could use agents, where we needed to be very focused in terms of building cross-functional teams around those jobs supported by AI tools. And it's also given us, I think, a really helpful mechanism to track our progress against the business outcomes for each of those jobs. So I think, you know, for us trying to, you know, well, while I think in this moment of time, you certainly want to like, you know, have a thousand flowers bloom and people are building agents and experimenting, I think at the same time making sure that we stay focused on what matters to our community, what matters to advertisers is really, really important. - Okay, I want to take a step back and think about just kind of reflect back. It's been 15 years since you've been working on Snap, you launched about 15 years ago. I'm curious just what are some of the, maybe biggest lessons, maybe the hardest lessons you've learned over the past 15 years, things that you're like, oh, I didn't realize this as I was starting this company. - I think it's hard to comprehend how much the job changes over time. I mean, it's really quite extraordinary to go from, you know, my job, you know, in the early days with Bobby and I, I was, you know, helping design the product but I was also answering customer support emails. I was, you know, trying to get our legal filing sorted out. I was trying to raise money, right? As, you know, the company grows and things evolve like so much more of the job is about leadership, right? About making sure you're really developing people, selecting the right people to be on the team, developing the culture, doing that really, really seriously. And, you know, in some ways, creating a structure that can enforce that, you know, to have a cohesive culture and a vision around the company, you know, it becomes about strategy, right? Managing through, you know, enormous change, like, what we're seeing with artificial intelligence today, but also several years ago managing through the pandemic or managing through rebuilding our advertising platform as the landscape change. So the job has just changed so dramatically. And I think that's part of what's so energizing about it, what I enjoy so much about it, but it's also something I like never in a million years could have anticipated when we were first getting started. - How have you most changed? And I guess evolved over that course with like a big area they've improved in. - You know, one of the big focus areas for me was learning how to communicate more effectively. Both to our team, but also here on a podcast or with the world, I mean, so much of the job is about becoming a great communicator. I remember I had the opportunity to meet President Clinton at one point in the early days of the company and he was like, it's very interesting, being present is really like being explainer and chief. And your job is actually to just explain stuff to people and help them make sense of the world and the company and their role in it. And I always thought that was really interesting and I go back to that a lot. So much of my job is to explain things to our company and to our shareholders, to the world in ways that really make sense and can inspire folks and help us to all move in the right direction. So I think communication just becomes such a core skill. And I think in the early days, I was unnecessarily dismissive of the really important role of communication. - Four founders that are hearing this and are like, okay, I'm gonna work on this. What most helped you level up in the spaces like coaches, is it people around you? Is it just doing it? - You know, just doing it is really the only way. You know, and that was really the advice like one of our board members gave to me because I was so reluctant. I didn't wanna do an all hands. I didn't wanna do Q&A. You know, in the early days of the company, I was like, well, you know, I'll just send an email and he's like, what are you doing? Like he's like too bad at them. Like this is your job. And I think that was really, really good advice. And so literally, I was like, okay, fine. You know, this is a core part of my job and what I need to learn how to do. I'm gonna learn to love it. I wanna love it. I wanna get up there and, you know, getting in front of our company and really enjoy, you know, answering all these really tough questions and, you know, digging into the business with our team. And now I really do. You know, I've learned to really enjoy that dialogue with our team. And I learned so much from the questions that folks ask and I love that openness. I think it's just such an important part of our company and who we are. - I had a role of war on the podcast a while back of the founder of Superhuman. And he went through a similar, I don't know if this is what you went through, but he went through a transition where he loved what he was doing and then ended up being pushed by VCs and leaders to like, okay, you gotta do these other things. And then like, okay, I really don't like this. And I'm gonna find a way to do the thing. I really enjoy because that's gonna reflect in so many ways across the business and help us succeed. Is that something you went through or just like, okay, I just wanna get back to the product and building. - You know, I think that's only partly true if you wanna stay in the CEO job. Like I think the CEO job has a lot of requirements that are not necessarily things, you know, that you love to do in the morning. There's a huge amount of responsibility that comes along with being CEO. There's a lot of operational rigor that I think needs to be developed. I think not every part of the CEO job is glamorous. So I think if I just wanted to work on product, I would pick a different job at SNAP, but I think because I really like leading our company and leading the direction and strategy for the business and because I see a huge opportunity and transforming the way that people use, computing in the future, you know, both through SNAP chat, but also with specs, I think this is the right role for me right now. I mean, certainly I would spend more time with my family and probably have more fun on some days if I was in a different role or, you know, more focused on design, but I think the opportunity for a business like ours at the scale that we have, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity for me. And you know, despite its challenges, I do like the CEO job. - So kind of along those lines, you put out this letter. I think it was the end of last year where you described this coming year as the crucible moment for SNAP. It's so interesting just like you guys have a billion monthly active users. That's just absurd. I don't think people realize this. You're making six billion a year in revenue, something like that. One of the very few social networks that lasts, that is durable with like a very valuable, interesting audience. On the flip side, the stock hasn't been killing it. There's like these investors coming at you, trying to take you to change all these things. I guess just thoughts, reflections, and what do you think people are missing about where this might go? - Well, that's really one of the reasons why I called this year a crucible moment. I mean, the company's almost at the scale of entering the Fortune 500, which is really exciting. It's almost not a billion monthly active users. It's about to launch specs after, you know, 12 years of investment in this future computing platform. But at the same time, it's still not net income profitable, for example, because we've been investing so heavily in the future and making the choice to do that. And so I think this is the year that we have to prove that Snapchat can be a really strong profitable business that it continues to grow, and both in terms of the reach of our audience and their engagement with new products, whether it's topic chats or spotlight, or I think we've got 200 million people playing games every month on Snapchat now. So gaming is becoming a big part of the engagement driver on Snapchat. And the reason why that's so important is that it's gonna be very hard for us to win long-term inspects without a really solid foundation. And so I think we need to demonstrate that, you know, after a couple years of rebuilding our ad platform, rebuilding our go-to-market efforts can really accelerate in the growth of the small medium customer part of our business, which has grown really rapidly for us, that this year we have a really solid foundation to launch the next chapter in the company's history. So it's a real turning point for Snap that's really exciting, but it's definitely an all-hands-on-deck moment for the company. - You had a really interesting way of describing Snap in the market, you called Snap the Middle Child. Talk about just what that means. - Yeah, I think one of the things that's so funny about our services that, while we're very, very large in terms of the scale of our audience, in terms of scale of our business, we're much larger than a Pinterest or Reddit, for example. We're also way smaller than Meta and Google. And so we occupy this very interesting sort of middle position in the market. And I think that comes with a lot of benefits 'cause we're big enough, we have enough scale to do really interesting things, but it also comes with the challenges of being overshadowed in some cases by our older brothers and maybe sometimes the younger kids are getting more attention. Again, in this crucible moment, it's part of defining who we are as a company and who we are as a business. And I think one of the things that will play an important role in that is getting specs out to consumers. Because I think right now, we've talked so long about the role that specs will play in the world. We've worked on developing the platform for so long, but without something that you can really play with and hang on to and use yourself, it's hard to really understand the next chapter of Snap's journey. So I think one of the biggest challenges that middle children faces defining themselves, right? Standing out from their older siblings and younger siblings. And so I think this is a moment and a year when Snap is really gonna define itself and I'm really excited about that. - Speaking of middle child, you have a number of children. And I'm curious, there's a whole, going a whole different direction. What's your just policy on screens and devices? Having built SnapChat and then also specs, just how do you think about devices in your kids? - Well, we've got a real range. We've got four boys, two, six, seven and 15. So we approach it very differently for all the kids at different ages. For the two-year-old, it's like zero screen time. We really just wanna essentially read with him and play explore outside and those sorts of things, but not really focus on screens. Unless he is getting a haircut because he really struggles with getting his haircut. So when he gets a haircut, he really loves Bobcat tractors, you know those four wheel, Bobcat tractors. And he loves to watch YouTube videos of people driving Bobcat tractors around. So when he gets his haircut, he can watch people drive Bobcat tractors. But other than that, no screen time. For the six and seven-year-olds, they are, I would say infrequent movie watchers, but other than that, again, we don't give them phones or anything like that. In fact, it was really fun for over the holidays for Christmas I gave them that. I think Palmer Lucky has a startup where they are sort of remaking Game Boys. - I have one of those. - Yeah, it's really fun. - My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, so the TBPN guys gave me two of them for our kids for Christmas. And so they get to spend a little time on those in addition to watching movies every now and then. And then, you know, with the 15-year-old, it's, he is all in on technology, whether he's using it for school or whether he's using it to talk with his friends or using Snapchat. So, you know, it really depends on kids and where they're at developmentally, but I think for us, like that's been our approach. - Is there anything you're doing with AI in your kids? Like maybe even the older one, just like AI, education, sort of tools, jet GPD? - Yeah, it's so funny at the breakfast table the other morning actually, I was just asking them a lot about like, how are their teachers talking about AI? school, how are they thinking about integrating in the curriculum? where you guys are using AI all the time. And I think the answer so far has been not really, which I think is interesting. But certainly our kids play around with it at home. They are beta testers for specs, which is really fun. I really love using the glasses together with them and some of the really cool experiences there. And Flan, who's the eldest, is probably most fluent in using AI tools. But what I think is so fun is a kid-- I think all of us as kids are incredibly imaginative. We're all born creative. We have all these amazing ideas to share. And I think what's so cool about AI is how in nearly an instant, you can take any idea you have and make something. And so I think that's so empowering for young people. It's certainly an experience I want our kids to have. And I think it's going to be so important to deeply integrate into the way that education works today. Yeah, it's interesting. Snapchat has always been really good at allowing you to create and make feel like a superstar. Just create all these really crazy lenses and filters and all these things. And it's interesting AI, just like vibe coding, just unleashes so much creativity. And kids are so imaginative already. Absolutely. So interesting. OK, well, to close that or conversation, I've got a couple-- I'm going to take us to a couple corners, recurring corners on the podcast. One is AI corner. So the question is, what's the way you use AI in your, let's say, work that is just interesting. That might be interesting for other people to learn from. Well, one of the things that I really love about AI, in Snap, I've got access to all of our dashboards and documents and data. And so I built-- we have Glean that integrates all this data for me. And I built just an agent that will go and comb through everything that's happening in the company and let me know what's up, what I need to focus on, what I need to catch. And every now and then, I really catch something that I hadn't realized or needed to focus a bit more on. And so I think we're just so fortunate to have so much structured data in our company. And for our leaders, they also send me every week, kind of the three things from the week and three things looking ahead. And so I can very, very easily get a sense for the hotspots in the company, the priority areas, and combine with all of our dashboards and metrics about the way that people are using our service. I feel like I have a really good sense for what's happening in the company. So I think what's most exciting for me in terms of AI is that it's enabling, I think, the type of leadership structure that I've always wanted, which is very flat, very fast moving. And I think having an AI co-pilot to help me do that has been a big deal. - And that agent was, you built it in Glean? Is that where it lives? - Yeah, I mean, that I've done in Glean, which is great, obviously, can build all sorts of stuff in Clawed, but Glean for us is the most secure way to access all of our different documents and dashboards and things like that. - Is there anything interesting in your AI stack? There's sounds like Glean, Plod? Is there anything else that's interesting? Maybe some people may not think about? - I think one of the things that we're thinking a lot about is just taking the entire workflow and enabling it with an agent. So for example, taking a product idea and with our go-to-market agent, taking that product idea, writing the spec, making identifying the relevant folks who need to be involved in sign-offs and understanding it, actually helping to do the risk analysis on the product, from a legal trust and safety perspective, writing the go-to-market materials, like the blog, et cetera. We're working now on actually building the visuals as well, but doing that in one shot is really wild. So I think there's all sorts of examples like that across the company in terms of the way that agents can play a really massive role in changing the way that we work. And that's connected to how we think about those jobs to be done, right? So if we can define a job to be done clearly enough that we can build an agent to do it, that can really create a lot of lift. - What do you, where do you build this agent? What's the platform to use? - We've been using Clawed to do a lot of the work across Snap, yeah. - Sweet. - Okay, I'll take us to another recurring corner in the podcast, Contrarian Corner. What's something that you believe that a lot of other people don't believe? What's kind of a Contrarian take about anything that comes to mind? - Well, I think for me, we're in an industry where so much of the conversation is focused on technology. And I think maybe my Contrarian, one of you or my Contrarian angle is like, humanity is far more important, than the technological developments, largely because humanity dictates how technology is adopted. Right, I think, for example, right now, people are massively underestimating the role that human adoption and human comfort, with advances in artificial intelligence will determine its deployment. Right, I think technology leaders think that folks will just blindly adopt new technology as it comes out. And I think we're gonna enter a period of time where there's gonna be a huge amount of societal pushback on a lot of the changes that are coming with AI. And so I think a lot of our focus is an industry, but more broadly in the world needs to be putting humanity first, right, making sure that the tools were developing or advancing humanity's goals, in addition to business goals. And I think in our industry, at least, that's a big Contrarian. - Yeah, and just so we don't need to go to down this path, but it's so hard for the AI labs, I think, to on the one hand be like, okay, this is really dangerous, and if it gets much smarter, and we need people to know this, 'cause this is happening and moving quickly. On the other hand, how do you not just freak everyone out and make everyone so afraid of where things are going? It's like, what do you do? What's the right thing for them to do? And because of all that doom and gloom, it's like, I'm sure you've seen these surveys, AI is like below ice in terms of popularity, and below like a run. And this isn't going great. I don't know. I don't know what I would do if I were left. And I love, I guess that's like a benefit of Snapchat, is it makes, like, you guys have been in AI for a very long time, and it shows you the playfulness of it all, and it doesn't have to be that serious. Anyway, with that, Evan, we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Let's give it a shot. OK. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? Well, you know what I just finished was the first 50 years of Apple by David Pogue. I thought it was great. I would recommend the first half, because he interviews like 150 early Apple team members, and the stories are just great. And there's a lot of learnings in there. So I really enjoyed that. I think what else have I read recently? There's a great book, maybe relevant for this particular moment, called The End of the World is just the beginning, which actually touches a lot on the vulnerability of global shipping. The global economy is built on global shipping. And it sort of predicts a world where the US who is going to have a much harder time securing the global water ways. And what does that mean for the way that we build things and organize ourselves as a society? That sounds quite familiar these days. Quite relevant for the given moments. Awesome. Is there a recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed? I mean, I feel like this is so typical, but I'd loved Marty Supreme. I thought that movie was off the charts. And I was like, I don't know. I'm not used to watching stuff that extreme. I mean, I could-- I was on edge of my seat the whole time. It's like a full throttle movie experience. I highly recommend. I'm not seen yet. I keep hearing amazing things. It's very intense. Yeah. Next question, Diva. Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app. Could be clothing, gadget, anything? Well, I think through our kids right now, I'm just rediscovering Pokemon, which is so fun. It's so great. And I think there's so much art to it. And personality and character. And what an amazing brand and franchise. And I think my general view is there's just so much they could do to grow that IP and franchise, at least of our kids, or any indication. I first mentioned a Pokemon in the lightning round. Next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life? You have two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion. Nice. Final question. You guys have created many lenses over the years. I'm curious if you have just a favorite lens, like all time favorite, and then all time least favorite, the worst. I mean, all time favorite is probably the vomiting rainbow. I think like that just brought so much joy to so many people, which is great. Least favorite, probably like the old lens, I don't know, or face swap. I just-- Oh, right. Those are intense. Wow. Flashback. And you guys were the first to do that, right? Yeah, I mean, that was all early days, real time machine learning transformation on the device. That was pretty cutting edge at the time. I mean, I don't think people realize big Bobby created our Gen A. I lab 10 years ago, a decade ago, something like that. What a time. The face-swapping era. The early use for generative AI. Wow. I forgot that was another innovation. And then there's businesses and apps that just set, the build that as a whole business. And then I'll win away as far as I can tell. Wow. That was a good time. All right. Well, Evan, is there anything else you want to share? Anything else you want to leave the listeners with before we-- before I let you go? I think it's such an exciting time. Obviously, I think there's a lot of concern about the way that artificial intelligence is going to change our society. But I think there's so much to be optimistic about in terms of the way that computing can become more human. And that's really what we're focused on. So really excited to share more about all this stuff we've been working on later this year. Evan, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thanks, Lenny. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'spodcast.com. See you in the next episode.