Small Forward Rankings 2025-26

All right, welcome on to the second position in our position rankings and one that's always most controversial in a number of facets. We're going to talk about small forwards today, Danny. We get a lot of guff on this. We've never discussed this as well since I've always kind of been the arbiter of who's going to be a small forward and a power forward and all that. But what is it that makes a small forward to you? And why are some of these guys, Kate Cunningham, Luke Codonchich, you know, that are people trying to say are point guards or why are they small forwards in our rankings? You think that is defensible? I think it's defensible. And for me, positions are entirely defined defensively because an offensive role can vary so much, thankfully, in the modern NBA. You have biggs who handle the ball like Nikolay Yokech and Albert Nshengun. You have smalls that don't. You have guys who are point guard sized. And so to me, what a small forward is. And so there are a few, you know, like I think it's useful. To have like you're the arbiter positions and I'm not because otherwise we would have arguments about that. And we have enough discussions to have in terms of the actual issues as well. And so I think that for me, positions are it's who you defend. And so like, yeah, you can make an argument that I see Luca, you know, defensively as a four, but the lines between it. So like a three, so we said, I said when we did shooting guards that to me shooting guards or players who can't defend small forwards, like or or an on ball stuff can be a little bit different. They can't really defend small forwards. And that's why small forwards are one of the most valuable positions. And then in some ways, power forwards are guys that can't really defend forwards and are that can't defend five's and can't defend threes. And so that means small forward is a narrower group because there are fewer people that can do this and do it at least capable. And so it's that. And then what one of the things that makes small forwards so different is that, okay, so that's a, it's just the defensive part of it is narrow enough. But then you add in variability of what you're asking for, what you could theoretically get from people who are small forward sized. And then that's where a lot of the value differentiation. Yeah, a lot of it just goes down to the size of the player. You know, if you're six seven or on six seven, you're around, you know, 220 pounds, you're probably going to be a small forward. You know, that's a good place to start with it. I think another part of it is if you are a player who has to be defended by the opposing small forward, you're probably a small forward. That's good too. Yeah. Right. Like if you're, you know, Yannis and Nukhumpo, he could maybe be depended by the opposing small forward at times. He's probably going to be just too big for that guy. And opposing for cards, they have to be nice to be able to defend them with the small forward. If there's no one else for the small forward to defend, but Luke and John, you're depending on what the power for it. Like, it's just going to be too slow. That guy's not going to be able to get over a screen as well. So some of these guys, you might tend more towards power forward at this point in their careers defensively. You know, Luke has always been that LeBron at this point in time. But if you have enough ball handling, enough passing skill and enough shooting as well, I think that's something that also changes between a power for it as well. For example, I moved Denny Avdia to small forward this year in part because he's just handling the ball so much, passing so much, but also he's improved his shooting enough as well. And so I think that's ultimately what it comes down to to me is, is this guy the size that we would traditionally have conceived of as a small forward? And yeah, you know what? Like if you're the fact that you're bringing the ball up, that doesn't make you a point guard, right? Like Scotty Pippin wasn't who kind of inaugurated the point forward position. It was called point forward. It wasn't called point guard. It's really just been ego to call these guys point guards because that are Luca Dachos to be a guard also really helped him to make all NBA for a bunch of years in a row, where maybe if he was a forward, he wouldn't have made it. The competition wasn't as good there. So if you are the size of a small forward, if you have to be guarded by small forwards, if you have to, when you're building a team, either on offensive defense, you're probably going to have two guys smaller than the guy and two guys bigger than the guy out there. You're probably going to be a small forward. So that's how it all breaks down to me and why even though Luca Dachos might guard a par forwards, even though he wants to be called a guard, he is a small forward. He fits into that same size and role that we traditionally have like the broad James. No one ever argued that he was a point guard. He played point guard sometimes in terms of bringing the ball up, but he's the size of a small forward. You always were going to have smaller guys on the floor next to him, just due to the size that they are in the defensive role. So that's we're doing the best we can here. I think though, especially the idea that these guys have to be guarded by small forwards, one thing that really stands out to me of why they should also be small forward. So what stands out to you as we look at some of the numbers across this position, maybe one where we can talk about this, where the positional average is because there are so many different roles and types of players, maybe even relative to shooting guard or point guard or center, but there's so many differences. So many of the positional averages aren't as helpful that are kind of more of an issue further down the spectrum when you're kind of like, all right, we don't have that. We don't have an all-star level player, but what are we looking for in our starting small forward? But in terms of these positional average, what stands out to you among this group of what you really you need to get from this position? And just as a point of clarification of positional average, we're using the average of players who qualify a small forwards who played at least 800 minutes this year. They're taking about six three pointers per 36 minutes. Most of those are not self-created. There are a couple of guys who are really pushing up the self-created average because we're going that way. Luke Adonchridge being one of them, of course. So six threes per 36. And then for some people, it's easier to do basketball reference usage. That's 21.3. So that is actually if you theoretically split the pie five ways that's above that. And then for total creation, about 30%. So I think that's a significant so like you think about any again at average, so certain guys can shift it. But the the small forwards, if you have somebody who can do a lot, that can that can do. But there are a lot of these lower usage, kind of like defense first small forwards as well. Yeah, I think statistically, if you want to compare some of the numbers to shooting guards, shooting guards take about one three per 36 more than small forwards. But I think importantly, they shoot a lot better. Your positional average here is 34.8% from threes. This is a lot of guys who sort of like, yeah, you're standing on the perimeter. You probably got to take it when you're open, but maybe you're a little bit below average as a shooter. I believe average usually in the 36% range and shooting guards are above, you know, they're shooting about 37% from three among these guys playing in more than 800 minutes. So this is again, kind of failure. 800 minutes is this is sort of like what you're looking for from a rotation player. Like I think it's telling that if you take the 3.1% edge for guys, just the overall position of average, if everyone we have classified as a small forward, that's at 33.9%. So the rotational small forwards are shooting a percentage point better from three. And even that is below average. So you can kind of see when you're trying to just get someone at this position. This is despite the fact that we, some people might say shoehorn certain players into this position like a Luca Doncic. This is easily the least most shallow position. And that's why a lot of these guys, if you have a quality starter, get paid this way. I think it's the exact opposite in terms of where the floor is at the position compared to shooting guards. Shooting guards, I think if you have the 45th best shooting guard in the league and you have to start them. Ah, okay. That's fine. If you got the 45th best small forward in the league and you have to start them, you're kind of, you know, that's like Isaac, a Kuro, Caleb, Martin, like that kind of player. It's the 45th best small forward, at least for me. Well, of course, get to that. Here's one way I can describe it. So I do tears, you know, this is usually outside of the preview that we talk about in the punt, but we go, I go all the way down pretty far. And so I have a category outside of what we usually discuss that is I say it's definitely in a rotation, but not a starter. So it's a guy that if they, if you have them, you're going to play them, but you're probably not going to start them on the two guards, that list. So everyone above that and that list goes to 73 players at the three that goes to 53. So that means the players that we have classified a small forward and then with my filter, who I think, if you have them, you're definitely going to put them in. There are some generous guys in that last group, like some players that maybe you could make an argument that they shouldn't be there. And you still don't have two for every team. Like that's how sparse this position is. And so the, it's scarce in terms of high level starters is one high level starters, but like the middle tier starters are thin, but then the reserves are perilously thin. And they basically always are. Yeah, and this is why in the draft, just getting anyone who can play at this position that becomes a premium fuel of things that we can note is as you might expect in both DPM and EPM, the guy who's playing more than 800 minutes is an above average player actually on both ends of the floor, which is pretty interesting. The average passing creation among this group is basically the same as it is at shooting guard, about 8%. But again, you have some wild swings. This guy's like Luca and Cade being involved in this contest percentage. Another thing that we talk about a lot. So you're now have to provide a defensive role a little bit more in terms of your health defense as well at this size. And that's at 14.1% on average opponent rim, field goal percentage, 67%. That's not amazing. Obviously centers usually are in the high 50s. And that's that your average center is going to be high 20s, low 30s in terms of their contest percentage of number of rim shots or percentage of the opponent's room shots that you are contesting at the rim. Two shooting percentage pretty much right about the league. average slightly below at 57%. And then I think the most important thing that you need at this position is just we talked about it in the open being able to guard the opposing small fort. If you can't guard either the opposing small fort or maybe guard down a little bit be a solid defensive option that's probably the biggest thing that is an expectation at this position that if you don't have it now you really have to rejigger some things from a team building perspective. So you either need to be a premium offensive option or the who's going to have the ball a lot or you'd be able to guard such players. And if you can't do either of those things now you're really just probably not a starting quality a small fort. There's a few guys who I think we can debate the efficacy of who don't necessarily do either of those things, but are still considered to be pre-compared. So let's let's move into now our actual rankings. Well, let's just very quickly I'll do the 30 second version of the preface of this, which is the exercise is we're doing a full season in playoff starting right now players current injuries are wiped away, but any propensity for injuries counts as you could think about Anthony Davis. His current injuries don't count, but his propensity for injuries would. He's not a spell for it, of course. And then your versatility, your malleability, that matters. You know, like so what you can do that's outside of the position and it's team agnostic. So it's not like oh, Luca Doncic is this valuable to the Lakers or maybe this is a bad situation. We're trying to take that out of it. We're trying to think about if you were kind of rerunning it, you had randomized teammates, randomized coaches, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And to add on the injuries, which I think matters for some of these players like Jason Tatum, Jimmy Butler, for example, Jalen Williams, would be another one. We're pretending that they if they are injured right now that they are just coming back from their injury, basically in the exact circumstance that Jason Tatum is right now, but that a full season was about to start right now. So Jimmy Butler, we're pretending he has rehabbed his ACL and then this mythical next season that he's going to play is about to start. What do we expect we're going to get from him, acknowledging that he and theory is healthy, but also that he's a year older and his performances degraded somewhat because of the ACL that he suffered and guys usually aren't that great coming back from an ACL in their first year. So you just try to price all that in subjectively as best you can. And then of course you guys know how the tears and the rankings work. You can listen to any of probably hundreds of podcasts that we've done over the last 10 years to hear how that works. All right. Who's your number one? Oh boy. I mean, this is this is really tough because you think about how the last year has gone and I don't think of this as much from a teen building standpoint, but like I think we could the some of the some of the shine is a little bit off of Wukodontchurch. I mean, also you could think it's not because of the trade or anything like that. I mean, he was traded before we did this last year, but the idea that he hasn't elevated the Lakers as much as being they have a a one 18 three offensive regular Wukodontchurch is on the floor that is not stirring that is not amazing. He is still a very efficient individual score 61% true shooting and you could almost round up the 62. So I think that Luca is more vulnerable in this than he has been previously. And so I kind of want to talk about this top group in part because I haven't fully this is I think the only position we'll have to go through with Evans where I haven't fully decided who I want to have number one. I know the people who are in the mix, but I'll run through some of the other candidates. I think so Kate Cunningham is fascinating because he's a much less efficient individual player 56% true shooting relative versus 61.4 for Luca. But the pistons with I would argue inferior offensive talent are a better offensive team so far with him on the floor. And it's not like JB Bicker staff is some offensive wizard overall and and everything else. And Cunningham is vastly superior on defense. So you have those guys and then you could also throw in like what are we going to what are we going to do? We'll have of course have this conversation with Jason Tatum and then what do you do with Kauai Leonard? So I think for me and you can mention Katie here, but I think the the four that are the kind of the top of this conversation to me are in no particular order right now are Luca, Kauai, Kade and Jason Tatum. Yeah, I provisionally went with Kade number one. And I think part of that and again this is provisional. You know, Luca Donchic, I do have concerns about his ability to ever truly be a championship player. Now he's had two very good playoff runs with Dallas, but I think we have established that it's just very hard to build a team around him compared to Kate Cunningham. And does that the fact that I still would say Luca is a better offensive player like he's just a better player inside the arc, probably a better off the dribble shooter. They're both like pretty balls out at similar styles of play. Luca, of course, has played with just more spacing around him. Generally, then Kade, Kade has a much bigger offensive load on a team that has no other creators and pretty limited spacing by modern standards. But Luca is just way more efficient. Now worth noting that the Detroit Pistons have a better offensive rating with Kate on the floor this year than the Lakers do with Luca Donchic, even though there's a five percentage point difference in their true shooting, Kade actually has a higher passing creation than Luca does. I think his health is more reliable. And then of course, he's just a way better defensive player for example. One thing you can point to is Kade contests 17% of opponent shots around their same thing in theory for Luca, but contests with Luca. He might want to put in quotes because the opponent in Hugo presented when Luca is contesting a shot is 74.5% for Kade is 59.9%. Now the Pistons are a very good room protect team. You do sort of get some cumulative effects there of having other good room protectors around you in the sat because multiple players can contest a shot. But I think Kade can get over a screen. If he switches on to a good player, you're not that worried about it. He's going to make plays in transition. He's not going to carve to the refs and not get back. So I think Kade versus I had those two guys in my top tier as of right now. I think we can talk about Tatum and Leonard. I think Tatum coming off the injury. I'm just not ready to put him back in that group yet. So what do you think in terms of Kade versus Luca? I mean, you do feel like Luca still is the higher offensive ceiling, but also I just have these pretty big concerns about Luca at this point. I share some of those concerns about Luca and but one thing that I kind of leaned back on and maybe this is just simple. I mean, Kade County Ham is younger. He's still 24 at this moment. Is that like you brought up the idea that the the piston that the piston's offense is better than with Kade on than the Lakers offense with Luca. That's true. And it is true. Like I brought up this point a lot over the last week about how the pistons they're below average and half court offense efficiency. It's important to note that they are much better with Kade County Ham on. They're well above league average 99.2 points per 100 plays versus basically 91 when Kade County Ham is off the floor. So it is that off that's that's dragging that down. But Luca, it is hard to build around him, but we've already seen an NBA final team in a totally credible conference with him as the best player. We haven't seen that for Kade yet. And it is like there are specific things that you have to do to make a Lukatee but they're also not the hardest things to get. You know, I get you need you need an on ball defender. You ideally need those three. I mean, you don't you can do with a rim rolling. I mean, the Lakers, the Lakers since 2021 haven't had those kinds of players. They have been able to find them. We talked about I mean, because you if you're going to have Luca and he is a small forward, you really got to have two other three and D players around him. And then you need one other ball handler. And then you need an awesome room protecting center. Like that's basically the only formula that's going to work. Is that exact form and that's like that's kind of hard to do is I have like a good starting center who's a good room. Hopefully a great room protector, honestly. Then you need, you know, a Kyrie Irving, Jalen Brunson level up all handler. And then you need two starting small forwards, which also like you got to pay a lot of money for those guys. Whereas if you're because of what his defensive limitations are. And so and the fact that he really just can't guard anyone. That's and it's kind of a hard gene to put together. I mean, yeah. So only a genius like Nico Harrison could pull it off. Honestly. And I mean, the thing, the thing with Luca that I resonate is funny how like one line, I mean, John had a much larger thought on this, which is also in my mind that idea that John talked about in top 10 players last year about how you can you can build a very good team around Yokech, but there's going to you can't build like a truly elite team around him. I think that that same that same fault applies even more strongly to Luca Dongeck, where you can build a very good team. And I mean, as I just said, they he's made he's been the best player on a team that made the finals. So that is a little bit different. But the those truly special teams because of all these concessions that you have to make around him. And part of it is that he's limited defensively, but also the other thing. And so like it's funny. I have Luca preliminarily first, but I'm thinking about moving him down is also this idea of and I brought this up. There's such some more players in certain respects with Harden, which is that some of the stuff that Luca doesn't do. You brought a defense, but the other thing that Luca Dongeck doesn't do is key you in transition. And so and that's something that we read about with Kate Cunningham, really in his career. But it is it is something that Kate was able to to add for Luca and like as a [BLANK_AUDIO] As a point of reference, the Lakers don't really run that they don't run to crazy, but their transition frequency is middle of the road when Luca don't churches on the floor. And this is on a team that has other initiators that has other graders. And so you're leaving certain points on the table in transition, maybe you're getting some of those back and half-court offense, 'cause I mean, Luca teams generally do extremely well. Like I brought up the, how the pistons have a 99 half-court offensive rating with Kate, it's a 105.1 with Luca. And that's a meaningful difference, but some of that difference you take away because he's not gonna push the ball. He's gonna be wanting it the refs. - Yeah, and also not gonna get back on defense as well. And I think you have to throw in as well that he's just as like kind of a winner. And then also like the odd-off numbers are not that great for Luca. They historically have not been, now in the playoffs, he's had monster playoffs. I mean, that's probably your biggest argument is that he just, him versus Kate is that he just has totally blown up at times in the playoffs. - Yeah, that is a pretty strong one. And he's done it against, you know, very strong on the playoffs. - Yeah, well that's true. - Last year's playoffs, again, maybe he wasn't quite at the same level physically, but he did not do that in last year's playoffs. - Yeah, I think you can make a very, I think it's a pretty reasonable argument. And I mean, I have Kate ahead of Luca in MVP rankings and all in the A right now. So you can make an easy argument to me that Kate Cunningham is the superior regular season player. But that track record, I mean, Luca, let's, I mean, just to have a couple of the quick kind of basketball referencey things like Luca, that year, so in the year that the Mavericks made the finals played a lot of good defenses that year, it was 56% true shooting, but on a wild usage, he had 58% true shooting in the playoffs in 22. And he's played against some very good defenses. Like he just has that, he has that track record and I'm gonna try over the course of this podcast in part because some of these just so happens where some of these small forwards play, I think are in really bad situations. I'm not saying the Lakers are that necessarily for Luca, but you try to kind of take some of that weight off and like I think that's where I go. But here's the thing I wanna add into this conversation which is thorny F. So I'm gonna stick with Luca 1K2, but they're absolutely insane to you. I think if Jason Tatum had never been hurt, I probably would have had him first. Even with his flaws and like, yes, he's been the best player in a championship team, neither of these other two gentlemen ever has, but that was a really, really good team. But just because if you're saying that none of them is a clean number one, Tatum is far and away the best too. However, I have Tatum third in a separate tier because I can't price all of that in. We can't, what if away in a killi's tear in its entirety, we have to see him play, play more, play better. But like, I wanted to acknowledge that if Jason Tatum had never gotten hurt, I feel like it would have had him number one. - Yeah, and I agree with you there. I'm even a little bit worried that after two, six of 16 games coming back where he looked pretty decent that having him as high as I do is possibly out over the skis, at least for maybe not for the rest of his career, but for a season that started right now with him just coming fresh off the Achilles tear 10 months ago. If we were gonna say even where we next season, where he's now 18 months removed from the Achilles tear, that's a different conversation perhaps. And especially you have to throw in just that he's acting, he'll play that many minutes, he's on this minute's limit now, probably not gonna play back to backs. I mean, he won't in the playoffs and they'll probably push him hard in the playoffs, but if it were a regular season, he would be on these types of limits. - Yeah, I think it's really, I'm not even like that that high on Cade, I'm just down on Luca, and maybe he just looks a lot better. And he looked pretty damn good. It is noteworthy that Luca looked amazing early in the season, then LeBron comes back. I think the fit between those two is pretty bad. More, you know, from a defense and shooting perspective, not that they aren't like both willing passers or whatever, but having $50 million allocated in LeBron James, supposed to someone who'd fit better with Luca, is probably not great. So maybe we're still not being fair to Luca because the fit of his team is not that amazing, but then for Cade, I'm sorry, it's like the fit of his team. So amazing, he's got a rim rolling center and not much else that you would really want to have next to him. Like there's always basically a total non-shooter on the floor in addition to the center. I think I probably am just gonna go with Luca though, just because of the track record. Like I definitely believe at this point that Cade is a superior regular season player and the superior leader and all that. I just think the upside of Luca is maybe high enough in the playoffs that I just, I haven't seen Cade get to that level yet. So I will go look number one, but they are definitely in the same tier to me. And then I move down into here for the next guys. - I did too, that was so it's interesting. Like we ended up in like that's where I had things like in my preliminary rankings. And the next guy I think we should discuss, in part because Cade and we have to do a little bit of the abstract is Kauai Leonard and Kauai on the season 62% true shooting. And that's, you know, he's doing well from three, 37% which is actually below his career average on the 7.6 per 36, which would be the highest 3.8 of Kauai Leonard's career. But it's because he's become an even more ridiculous 2.2. He's the highest 2.8 in a few years, not higher than his early years on the Clippers. - 2.8 or a temperature rate. - A temperature rate. And he's, but he's so his attempt rate, it's 14 per 36, which he's gone over 15 once, he's gone over 14 flat another time. But 56.6% on twos is incredible. And that's better than he did in those other high seasons. That's part of why his true shooting is so high. And this is Kauai's age 34 season. So the passage of time doesn't necessarily help him, but one of the other things that kind of factors in for Kauai, also by the way, the only other player in this general area who has been the best player on a championship team, albeit, you know, this can make me feel super old seven years ago. But the idea that he can do it, and so what I think makes Kauai, so I have toyed with putting Kauai in the same tier, in part for you because I'm just a little bit lower on where Luca is, but I, you know, maybe it's unfair to keep digging Kauai for availability stuff. And I mean, when he, you know, he's played 1600 minutes already this year and he'll bump that number up, hopefully plenty over the course of time. So I kept him down for age and availability reasons, but I think there's an argument that like Kauai Leonard has been better this regular season than Luca Doncher has. - Oh yeah, no, I think he's, like Luca and Kade have different roles just in terms of their distribution, which Kauai is never gonna be that. And Kauai is also averaging well over two steals. I mean, I think Kauai still, he missed some time. He also shares some culpability for their 6 and 21 start. Also, I'm not sure if you want to price in, you know, a 3% chance that his contract gets avoided or something for going forward. I mean, I think we'll probably, or that he gets suspended in some way. I will probably have to skip that. You can also price in that Luca, you know, it's gonna miss probably missed the game at some point with some technical follow issues. So, but for Kauai, I think there's a very good argument that he's been the best small forward this year. Really again, just comes down to, is he gonna miss time? And there's also just an inscrutable aspect to him and his leadership and all the baggage that comes with him as well. But it's worth noting again that this guy, whenever he's actually available, like he's an all-time great. And while it's gonna be like, "Guard, he's not gonna be on the floor, he's not gonna be available." Anytime he gets out there and plays us and stayed him out of time, like he plays at this level. You know, he was, this good two years ago as well. And then of course, just got some knee issues at the end of the season and didn't play in the playoffs basically and that was that. That was the end of the Clippers Championship Contended and Window. - Something that I've been thinking about a little bit is that well, so the Clippers have actually have a better offensive rating with Kauai, winner on the four than the Lakers with Luca and the Pistons with Kade. And Kauai has a lower role within the offense, you know, about 10% lower in terms of total creation than the other two. But the Clippers offense has been plenty good when he's been on the four without James Harden, 113 offensive rating plus 7.3 net rating. So like I think that the Kauai on stuff is really quite good. But I think we're kind of in the same boat where it's like, if it's in a way it's a parallel of the Kade, Kade, Luca thing where it's like, yeah, the best, the available best version of Kauai is in this tier one, maybe even towards the top of it, but you can't guarantee that enough because we're playing it out, we're playing out the whole string here to put him in that same group. So like I think that's the nuance that I'm trying to convey. Does that make sense? - Yeah, absolutely. But if you could guarantee me that Kauai liner would be healthy and put him onto a random team for the playoffs and he could actually make it through that entire playoffs and be healthy, yeah, he might be number one, at least as far as who I would want in a playoff game. And you mentioned the on-off for Kauai. And it's not like this Clippers offense has a bunch of world beaters this year. And yet, I talked about this with La Merrie in pretty season that their offense is since he's gotten there whenever he's played, basically, I've always been awesome. Despite the fact that he's not that amazing creator, just because of his low turnover rate and how efficient he is and how he just controls the game that their offense is always good, basically no matter who he's playing with. So it's really, really impressive the season that he's having. I also put Kevin Durant in this group. I think KD has had a lot to deal with this year. He's not the defensive force that Leonard is, but he still just plays a ton. he's up, he's. played more minutes than anyone in this small for a group this year, other than McAle Bridges. And he's hot on the tail of that particular Ironman playing 37 minutes a game this year. And while I do think he's not the same offensive force as quiet, he's not the same defensive force. He is just more reliable. Generally, I would say these last two years, he's been healthy. He got needed had some kind of freak injuries. He seems to have gotten over that. Yes, he's going to turn 38 pretty soon. So that is a thing, but he still can fit in on any team. Yeah, you do wonder a little bit about his leadership and the way things seem to turn sour everywhere that he goes after a couple of years. Some of that says false on that is it? And yeah, you know what, I'm actually going to move in doubt it's your three. I don't have it in this year. I think we can move down to it to our here three as well. I mean, so I look in K to tier one, Tatum and Leonard and tier two. And then what did you have for your top four? I have Luke and K tier one, Tatum and Leonard, tier two. And then I currently have Kevin Durant in a tier three by himself. And part of that is because the next group is hard to reconcile as well. Like the top of the small forwards are are perilous and you're getting into all this. And part of the reason I mentioned that is because the guy who I have number six hasn't played anywhere near that level this year. And that's J. W. J. Williams. And he was the current rating second best player on a championship team did so with a messed up wrist. But he's had an absolute disaster of a season this year. And it's but his defensive level and like there's plenty of reason to believe that the injuries, not only the wrist, but also his hamstring issues that that has been the reason why he's is age 24 season. There's no reason to believe that he's a materially worse player now than he was last year or the year before. I agree with you on that. I would say the one thing that gave me pause. And certainly this is a player is not a number one creator on a team. But he has did produce enough. He had some pretty rough games last year. But he produced enough as the number two and had some big games in them. You know, the impact metrics have never loved it. I had it. I debate with J. Engelman about him the last time that he was on. And the point that I tried to make about him is a number one. I think his defensive talents are actually a little underutilized. I know Casey. We probably saw more of what he could do in 24 than recently. But he can guard basically one through five, which not a lot of guys that this position can. And while he's not maybe at the top of this group as a creator and is you know, maybe just like kind of an average number two as a creator that his ability to just fill in that slot where he can guard anyone on the other team is just massive as far as your team building. And I think on another team, he might even be potentially more violent. Okay, see you can look at like, Oh, hey, they haven't really missed him at all this year. It's like kind of true. But he's never really been amazing as the leader of the second unit without J. G. G. Alexander, although I think having one more guy like AJ Mitchell would really help him a lot. We just haven't gotten to see that this year. So that's what I like about him is that even if the impact metrics aren't unbelievable for him that they'd he can fit in in any lineup. He's not going to take anything off the table in any aspect at his best. Now the fact that he just coming back from this wrist issue had to have a second surgery, but basically not taking any threes this year, not hitting any threes. I mean, if the season started right now, like I hope he's eventually going to be able to get his ability to shoot a jump shot back on track. He had a couple of really nice games playing out of pick and roll as the primary guy when she was out and then immediately went down again with the hamstring issue. So that's maybe my bigger concern about him and why I have a little bit of pause having this group. I ultimately did. But like, what if he just can't shoot anymore? That's a problem. It is a problem. And part of why I really like J. Dubb and it's is that he's maybe he's over overstripped to be a number one, but that he's a number two who fits with any kind of any flavor of number one. Like you could have a lot of different types of best offense player. The version of him that can actually shoot the basketball to. Yes. Yes. Yes. To be clear. And so that's that's really useful. And then I mean for J. Dubb, his defense, like there was a point when Jalen Brown was and was an amazing defender, but like, and this happens a lot with guys who A good older and B take on a larger role within their offense. Like to me, Jalen Brown isn't the level of defender that he once was. And so that's that's a big part of this equation. Now Jalen deserves a ton of credit for and I had, sorry, the other Jalen, Jalen Brown, deserve a ton of credit for how good the Celtics offense has been with him on the four. And yes, they've been better with him off and all that sort of stuff. We talked about that in LNBA. But he we now kind of have more data than we did before that he can do his thing and his team can be effective. And so like to me, having those two guys in the same tier is appropriate because each of them has strengths that are really good and flaws that are really irritating, but they could work alongside a lot of other great players and they both already have. Yeah, I think I just kind of moved J Dubb down because I just like the season is starting today. And the last we saw of him, like he hasn't had another procedure on this wrist. Like what's going on? Is he rehabbing it? Is it just does he need another surgery? Like what is this? Right? Like I have some faith that eventually they're going to get this solved, but we have a season starting today. And the last we've seen of him, he wasn't able to shoot a three pointer. So I think I think I I I improve injuries a little bit more than you do. Usually that's not super relevant. But I think I kind of like, okay, this is a nagging not permanent injury, but it is a fair concern. I mean, that's a thing. Yeah. We just like the wrist is very important for playing basketball. And I don't really we haven't really seen guys struggle with this sort of a thing. Usually they get the surgery and then they're just fine. Right? So that's why this is kind of so troubling to me, especially with the second surgery need to be had. And then he still was struggling. So yeah, I would I again, I think it's a little eventually get sorted out. But I'm just like we're starting the season right now. I've got a concern level. I think. So yeah, Jaylen Brown with Katie and Jaylen Brown, I had in in the same group. I think Jaylen Brown, you do have to wonder some about the impact metrics with him where they just have never he's never really shown up as a hugely positive player in those regular season impact metrics. But also this is a guy who was MVP of the East finals and the finals. And I think he has a resilient style of scoring that maybe I okay slightly true shooting slightly below league average, but he's really effective in the playoffs at especially when healthy, right? I mean, I I discount what he did last year in the playoffs just because he was hurt and he's largely has been healthy in his career. He's looked a lot better this year. And while he's not someone who is an amazing help defender by any means, he still is someone who can especially if he's not the no offensive number one, he can now you can sick him on the opposing teams best player. And he's not a great help defender, but also like he's not going to get beat up when he's guarding that player. And so I think he this is the right spot. I think the people who have him in the MVP conversation are definitely over their skis and so much of why they've been good has actually been what they've done without him on the floor, although they still have been very good with him on the floor. I mean, they are eight points for a hundred better with him off the floor this season. So you do have to give that some credence, but you also have to give credence to the fact that he has a resilient style of play and doesn't have any major weaknesses that could be attacked in the playoffs as well. So I have him here, and then I also put a put any of the in this group, assuming he can ever get over these back issues, different kind of player. But as you look at J Dub, I mean, the next group I had was J Dub, Franz Wagner LeBron. I think he fits better with this top group than that group below him. I think so it's obvious a fascinating case. So I actually have another player that we can talk about in this vicinity who I don't think I heard you mentioned in all this. But so, Abdiah, he's had this huge role on the blazers. You know, you don't I don't think you want his total creation at a 46%. I don't think that's what you necessarily want. The blazers offense has been, they've been, they've been fine, but they haven't been great. You know, we're talking about 116 as opposed to some of these other guys which have been a lot higher. But what obviously, they also, I mean, if you look at who's the random, it's just it's awful. It's awful. And you look at how horrendous they've been when Danny Abdiah has been unavailable, especially offensively, but overall, like you see his value in that respect as well. And Abdiah, his game, you know, it I have Abdiah and Franz Wagner in the same tier. I actually think of them in certain ways as similar players in terms of like a part of a big part of what both of them are doing is trying to get fouled and Abdiah is a better shooter. I mean, I know Franz Wagner in small sample sizes numbers percentage are actually better, but we have a lot more build on than just this year. And Abdiah, how do you feel about him defensively? Because I think, I think Abdiah, like he's as valuable to his team, like I had him 13 all NBA for a reason. But I wonder about where how he slots in when he's not the best offensive player. I do think he benefits from that. Or do you think that he maybe gets hurt a little bit by it? Well, I think his ability to make spot up threes has improved enough that I don't worry about that as much. And I also think if he didn't have the ball every single second that he could get back to being a reasonable defensive option. I think he's not been particularly good this year. And the on off numbers defensively reflect that. I think that his failures this year have been part of why they've been disappointing on defense, even though in theory, they had some pretty good personnel. But I just think he's a better offensive player than probably the fifth best offensive player as a small for like that's I think he's better than KD. I think he's better than that. and Jalen Brown, Ben and Jalen Williams, Ben and Franz Wagner. He is able to play that heal you, Centric style and be effective, but also not just be a total liability off the ball either. The way he gets the foul line is really difficult to deal with. His passing is very tough to deal with as well. He's really improved there. He's been a total one man band and still gotten this group to respectable offense when he's been on the floor. And I think if you put like actual spacing around him or maybe like a premium all you finish her instead of Donovan Klingon, you might be like, oh, man, we don't have anything that we can do with this guy. Now, of course, he's had the health issues really as napping the same guy since this back stuff started. He's back playing again. I thought he's so was like kind of wincing running around when I saw him out there most recently. So that's something to keep in mind is what we only have three months of him at this level. But and we haven't seen him producing the playoffs either. But I just thought that what he did was so difficult to stop this year that teams just were really like good defenses really had big problems with it. We were pretty much in line there. I mean, so I have Obdi at the top of a group from nine to 12. And then I have him above Franz Wagner. As I said, I think of them as kind of similar players. But I think Obdi because I trust his shooting more, he's more plug in play in that respect. And I mean, both of those guys, you know, you wonder about where their offense can be in both them are can be I think I like Franz better as a defender, especially with what Obdi has done this year. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Not that particularly as a helps a fender. Agreed. And so, but I want to bring up somebody else that I actually have over both those guys. And it's funny because I you could see it as a sign that maybe I'm wrong here. I have the same same group, you know, same overall conversation is, but I've never mentioned this guy really for all MBA. And then you could think of him as like the great non all MBA guy, which is OG and a no B. And so OG's flaw, his clear fall, obvious in this is that he doesn't have the scalability offensively that these guys do. And that's a huge problem. So the idea that you that you can't do even what J. W has done or not not to mention what Jalen Brown or Denny Avd. You have done. But if you're factoring in this is right around the range where you're saying, okay, this player probably doesn't have to be the best offensive player. And so I don't have any same tears Jalen and J. W are both they're both Jalents, but, but what OG and it'll be brings is a couple things. So one, he's a he's I think of him as a pretty consistent shooter. Not us nail shooter, but he's also just this fan. Fantastic defender, you know, with this whole concept that we've talked about over the years of like, if you didn't know who the other guy was going to be, that you could have OG like he had, he had some big possessions guarding J. W. And a lot of other, a lot of other players. And so if you were to say and by where we are in the position rankings, I think this is a fair assertion that the player in question is not going to be the best offensive player on your team. Like if you knew that as a constraint, I think I'd rather have OG and nobody than Denny Obdia. The problem is that if I know guys going to get hurt or something else, Obdia, Franz Fodner, J. Dub, all those guys can scale up. They can take on some of that role. And OG, OG, I love his drive game sometimes, but he's an opportunistic guy. He's not a, he's not a guy who runs stuff. Yeah, I guess OG is certainly the best of, I would say, that three in D type. A men Thompson is in this group too, but he just can't shoot while at all. And just as is a tougher fit. And OG versus a men Thompson defensively is kind of an eye the holder thing. A men's been a little bit different of a role this year, where he hasn't been around the basket as much. He's just been kind of a set in, forget a guy more on the duel, switching still, but he's been asked more to guard on the primaries, done more room protection in the past. I still think that there's that role is just not ultimately as valuable and doesn't have as much of a Delta versus someone like LeBron or Wagner, like guys who can do more with the ball. I think I had OG a little bit lower than this next group, which was Jalen Williams, Franz Wagner, LeBron James. And I think when you, I would say OG is more valuable than like, you know, a brand in Ingram, level of creator, like that level of creator, but someone who's a legitimate number two, offensively at the small four position, I still think is better than OG. And because as you're building your team, OG is a great maybe third best player. You've almost got to prefer even be your fourth best player, certainly your fourth best offensive player. And if you're going to compare him to like, is he take like Franz Wagner versus the next tier down of guy of that ill could be like, you know, brand in Ingram or, you know, I have this guy way, way lower, but as far as someone who's still a creator, like to Margarose and right, if you're looking for that role versus OG compared to say Andrew Wiggins or Keegan Murray or or Michele Bridges is the Delta between Franz Wagner and brand in Ingram larger than the Delta between OG and a no B and other guy and his team Michele Bridges. I would have to say it's bigger between Wagner and Ingram than an in OB and Bridges. Now eventually you get to a point, you know, below like the 25th best small forward where, yeah, you're just running out of guys who can play any sort of credible 3-in-D role. But I think the replacement level for OG is just a little bit higher. I think you might, I think you might be right, but I'm, I kind of see it through a different lens, which is I value creation that isn't fantastic. Like, you know, if you need another player to be your best offensive player, well, then some of the other stuff like, for example, I have brand in Ingram way lower. That's not a surprise to anybody who's listening to me do position rankings ever. But so I just value like, I value that like lower level secondary creation less because you can get that from other positions roles, especially when a lot of those guys are bad defenders or, you know, at least worse than the position that I'm saying, right? Like, brand in Ingram, if you value that less, then you would say the difference between him and Franz Wagner is huge, is huge, right? It is, but I just value what Franz Wagner does a little bit less for sort of that reason. Like the idea, I agree with you that the difference is there. But also he's also like a solid four game player as well. Like that kind of, yeah. So, so yeah. So I think I, you know, I have, I have them all in this kind of group together. And it is a challenge. And I have Michele Bridges in the same tier with OG and Adobe. So I think that kind of reflects it too. And it's, so I think that OG, it's just that there are a lot of teams where I think they would be better off with in Adobe rather than OVD or Wagner. I mean, just, it just kind of depends on what you need, what you're looking for. I mean, it's unfortunate that we're probably not going to get the frame for any of those anytime soon just because those players very rarely change teams for good reason. They're very good players. The one other guy that I want to kind of mention and we can discuss and it's hard because we're going to have to do it at least partially in the abstract is this is where I ended up putting Jimmy Butler because Butler, I would have had higher and I have in previous years. But he'd be coming back, you know, what's the way Al phrases is coming back midway through his age 37 season. That's one factor in this. One is just that he's, you know, we do consider this like he can be a pretty aggressive malcontent when things aren't his way contractually. And you have to consider that when, you know, when you're building a team and all this sort of stuff. And I mean, we talked about it with Harden as well. And so it's the age. It's the like kind of a little bit of aggression and that he's been dealing with these, you know, as this significant knee injury that's going on right now. So like a healthy Jimmy Butler would be above on this list. He'd probably be in that. He'd make it a six to eight with Jalen Brown and Jalen Williams. But I have to move him down at least a little bit. And maybe honestly, I should probably move him down a little bit more, but I'm going to, I like to give guy Creeans for what he has been. Yeah, certainly I think Jimmy's brand was a little bit too low based on how the Warriors semi struggled when both he and stuff were available. Stuff missed a lot of time too. And Jimmy as a number one creator like that's just not going to work. But when you look at how incredibly efficient he is and the fact that he's still never ever turns it over. Still a very solid passer, very good team defender gets the foul line at a absolutely preposterous rate and that the Warriors still had a seven point four net rating when he was out there. 10.1 points for 100 with him better with him on the floor versus off. Although obviously they've had a long period now with both without both him and stuff. So he certainly if he just we're healthy right now, he probably has to be in the lower end of the top 10. So this will then account for that to learn down ahead of him at 14 in this tier five with OG Brandon Miller and a men Thompson. We haven't talked about LeBron yet. I guess you have him a lot lower at this point in time. I do. I have LeBron a lot lower at this point. Okay. Yeah. And it's I mean, part of it is, you know, I identify a little bit with LeBron as somebody who is in his 40s who has, you know, he has different lower like body problems than I have. But the LeBron that we've seen this year just hasn't been hasn't been at that level and this is different than at other points where it's like, oh, you know, he's doing so like he's 41. I'm not saying LeBron is going to shoot 31% from three for the rest of his adult life. Yeah. It's been an underdiscuss story how poor his jumper has been. It's always been it's always kind of waxing way in. I think there were moments in these last few years where it's like, oh, maybe he's like a 39% 3 point shooter, but it's just it's never quite been that reliable. Like it's not it's not really what he wants to do is shoot spot ups. Like he's not going to like move at all without the ball to get open when someone else drives. All right, you throw it to him and he's just going to kind of, all right, I guess I'm open. I'll take it and maybe I'm really feeling it. So I'll take this deep one, but just as a consistent shooting threat, it has not been there. And then you have to just be on the show. you have the kind of overall offensive engine stuff, which for LeBron hasn't been where it was. And so LeBron on Luca off, and that's still a fair portion of that, has Austin Reeves on the floor. 116 offensive rating, that's more in the, I would say in the pedestrian, it's still better than the Blazers of LaBria, but the offensive talent is better on the Lakers than the Blazers of LaBria. And the other thing that I've noticed with LeBron is another step back and justified by his age on defense. And so for me, when you think about, well, what is that player in an overall ecosystem? Like, I'm just, I'm not super moved by it. Like, I still have him as a definite starter, but I wouldn't rather have that guy. Like, he doesn't have the same strengths, and yes, maybe he can rip it up, but then you also have the availability stuff with him. And that this is good stuff is gonna come up. Like, the, you know, just availability and how much he's gonna play. And so for me, I think that the best version of LeBron is meaningfully worse than it has been in prior years. And I believe I had LeBron third last year, but the other part is just that I can't trust it. We'll even be that guy that off. - Yeah, I think you make a good point. And as I look more closely at the numbers to, for example, given his defensive role, an 11% contest percentage on opponent's chance at the rim is pathetic. And I mean, pathetic in the sense that's just not for a defensive power for that's just not where you wanna be. He's also just not really gonna be able to close out that well, I think there are moments in time when he really ramps it up. Like, for example, even as recently as game four against the wolves last year where he can still be a really big defensive force, but yeah, night to night that's not gonna be the case. So yeah, 10 games a year when he ramps it up because still be okay, but that season unfortunately is 82 games long. And so yeah, you've convinced me to move him down. I mean, I think that's OG is probably like a more valuable player than LeBron James on more teams at this point, particularly honestly. Teams that are really trying to win at the highest level. And it's haven't seen LeBron dominate as a one-on-one score in some time and not that much to series. Or again, he's not in a great situation either much as Luca is, but you kinda almost have to build your team in the same way around LeBron as you do Luca, but he is not that level offensive engine anymore. And not like, I think where he can be most effective still as a post player, but he just has never really wanted to embrace that as his primary modus operandi necessarily. So yeah, I would put him in this group, but lower potentially Brandon Miller has really bumped up to me. I have him provisionally here at number 11. And we've never seen him in the playoffs. He's got this shoulder issue. Thankfully he was able to get over that. Three pointers per 36 is just a crazy amount, 9.9. And unlike a lot of these guys, he's not reliant on shooting it off the dribble as much. He can of course pass some, never been a great two-point finisher like that's probably the biggest hole in this game, but you just absolutely have to respect him on the primary. He's also just been getting better and better as the season has gone along as well. And so if you compare him to someone like Trey Murphy, I think he's clearly better than Trey Murphy. I think he has a more versatile jump shot than Trey Murphy, better passer. Pretty similar defensively. I think maybe Trey makes a few more plays. Brandon Miller a little bit better as a one-on-one defender, like getting over screens and stuff. So I have Miller, especially also when you consider that he's younger than Murphy and still has been just getting better and better this year. And I actually, I probably like his health better than Trey at this point. So I have those guys in different tiers. Also, Trey Murphy, as you noted, has been pre-pore as an on ball of picking roll threat, whereas Miller can be really good there. I just, the experience that he's gotten working in several different roles offensively in part of this high movement on the perimeter scheme with Charlotte offensively. So I'm maybe a little too early on Miller, but I try to be a little too early on guys, generally. And I've just been really impressed by what I've seen from him particularly of late. - I think, so I have him a tier below in the same tier incidentally with Trey Murphy, but I understand where you're coming from. And Miller, he has a, he doesn't have as much of a kind of playmaking role as some of these guys, like his passing creation is below 10%. Some of these guys, like, are even like KD is higher than that. Of course, Jalen Brown is too, but Jalen Brown has a different role this year. And with Miller, one of the questions that I wonder about and the importance might become a good enough situation for this to matter is, well, how do you build out the rest of the team? So like he's a definitely offensively potent guy. He can do a little bit more on ball than some of the other shooter types. And, but he's not a great defensive player in kind of either the man-to-man stuff or the help capacity. So, okay, then maybe you, and remember, we talked about this going back to when he was a prospect that maybe he positionally, in terms of how you build a team, you think of him more like a two. And in some ways, that's a criticism because that means you need guys who do three things and guys who do four things next to him. But he's now good enough at the things that he does well where that starts to become palatable for you. And like maybe that'll lead to some structural challenges for the hornets moving forward. But like you can get a forward who does, we just talked about the volume of this. Some of the stuff that you need is a complement to Miller and defensively probably want something at the five. But he can fit in offensively and basically anywhere. And he, I think there might be some more skill, but he's something that I've been impressed with with Brandon Miller. We don't see it as much in the stats yet. He's a sister rate at Barrett Pissacration is a great, is I think he's a more incisive passer, like when I see him in person and when I see it on film, then shows up in the stats. And I mentioned that because you start to think when a guy, this is age 23, you know, like he's still young, you start to think about, well, what could he be, you know, moving forward? And I think Miller is like the rate of improvement for him is very encouraging. So like, I get why you have in there. I'm just a little bit risk averse. Not only for the like, this is the first year he's played, even the first real stretch where he's played at this level. But also the idea of a lot of the guys who are above him, like I have in that tier like Michele Bridges and OG and Adobe Franz Farner, tune except like those guys have played against high level competition. They played in games that have really mattered and I understand what they are. And I get like, and I, they're a number of different guys that we'll talk about later on this list where I am ahead of that and I'm anticipating it. But I have enough, like I kind of have enough respect for these higher guys that I like, I didn't want to put the new kid in there yet without having earned it. Maybe that's, maybe that's me going to be a year too late. We'll see where these things are next year. But like I get where you're coming from, even though I disagree. - Yeah, I think that's fair as well. And maybe he's just not quite a good enough score inside the arc yet to merit this where he's still well below average as a contested finisher. Only 40% on long twos while still taking a fair number of those. So yeah, some of this is projecting out more going into the future. And it's based kind of on how he's played the last two months, which might be a little too rosy. A men Thompson, I still had in this group. And Houston has a lot of guys, they have a traditional center. They have a lot of other guys that are out there. You're Josh Akogis, you're Dorian, Fini Smiths, Tariy, and we'll talk about him. Me, in theory, he's been making shots, but he still kind of gets treated like not a great shooter. Jubari Smith Jr. is only okay in that role. So maybe on another team, it could look a little bit better for him. I hope that he would take more of a step forward given the type of shots he takes being basically a league average and true shooting is not amazing. I do think it is 11% passing creation. I do think that that's something that could be ramped up more if you had a group where he could be the main ball handler and kind of be used the way that Russell Westbrook was. But he just is not that relentless attacking the rim. But then again, on a different team, if he wasn't playing with two bigs, he could operate more as a small forward. He still is, or a power forward around the basket, working the dunker spot. He could be a force still in transition, do more in the offensive glass, even then he's done this year. So I think there is a totally different type of offensive player than anyone that we've talked about before. And then of course, as a defender, he's just an absolute game changing level of player. I mean, they are 10 points 100 better defensively with him on the floor than off this season and has been one of the best there. He can even do more as a rim protector. So when I looked at the next group of guys down, which is Dylan Brooks, Mikhail Bridges, he could marry, like he just is a way better defensive person these guys. And while maybe it's easier to build a team around kind of more three and D types than him, I do think he still has an offensive role. And maybe even could be as valuable despite the fact that he never shoots threes as some of these other dudes. So I ultimately and the impact metrics on him have always been awesome. He also plays a billion minutes, never gets hurt. So that's why I had to have him in this group. I had him at number 13. I have him 16th in a group with some of the other guys you just mentioned in part because while I think, so I think of this group that to me, they put them together where there are strengths that worth it, but you have to deal with their weaknesses. I'm like, I think with with Trey Murphy, for example, like his strengths are very different, but you have to deal with this. This is not a great defensive player. So you have to accommodate for that. And so a man, I think he's the best perimeter defender and basketball. And so you make sacrifices to have him around there. You have him and he's better to me than some of the other defense first guys. And there is a possibility of the offensive role, but I've gained a lot of skepticism for what it will be in actuality. Now he's not playing with the perfect surrounding talent or with the perfect coach to be creative enough to maximize it. But the Houston Rockets, even with those criticism to this levied, they had the incentive to give him the opportunity if they thought that he murdered it and they haven't. And so I think you could concoct a system and surrounding talent to do it more. But you mentioned the idea, like he's a tenacious defender. If a man was even close to that tenacious on offense, I think I would have him in that group with like Franz von Neur and Michele Bridges. But like that, that being is lacking when you consider that he, that's the way that his pathway to being it. And it's sort of a parallel to an extent with that he's never really grown as a shooter. Where it's like, he knows what his flaws are. And he's a, you know, I really like a man overall, like as a player and all this stuff. But it's like to me, when you don't see it for now, his third season, and like as you mentioned, he's played a billion minutes. He's already at almost 6,000 minutes in three seasons for his career. Well, then at a certain point, you kind of go, it's not gone forever, but I'm not going to say, oh, it's definitely laying dormant because if it were, I think we would have seen more flashes than we have in transition and some of this other stuff. And he's just, he hasn't been that guy yet. No, I agree. And it's been disappointing that he can't just be a little bit more physical as a finisher. And there are so many times when he's dribbling down court and he's got some small guard in front of him. I'm like, just fucking go through the guy and he just won't do it or can't do it. He doesn't maybe have like the quite the skill level of someone like Avdia who I've, I've often compared him to where you think, oh man, like a man, it's like, you should be easy, more athletic than Denny Avdia, but yet Avdia just has a higher skill level and more aggression getting to the basket than he does. Like it is a talent. And I do think it mends passing to some degrees under utilize, but also and they, they, his scoring gravity has to be enough to really unlock that like someone along the lines of, Avdia. So I don't think we have a huge disagreement on him. I just think his defense is good enough that it and his offense maybe could be a little bit better on another team. Moving into my next group here. Well, have we talked, do you think we've talked enough about McElberges? Like, I don't, I see in your next year, we're going to talk about him next year. Yeah, he's in my next group. It just kind of, it just kind of solid on both ends. You know, I really don't think he does anything in particular other than just play a lot that is really causing problems for the other team at this point, but he just, and his life might be a little bit different if he weren't playing with NNOPI and was guarding some larger players, but he also has lack of physicality on both ends, maybe more so on offense than on defense because he never, ever gets to the foul line, which really hurts his efficiency. He draws 1.5 files per 36. And, you know, how many of those are just him drawing an illegal screen or something, right? Like, as free throw attempts are quite low, 1.3 free throw attempts for 36. Yeah, that is, that is pretty much the lowest of any player that will really spend time talking about. There are a couple that are in the even lower ones. Yeah, the Ludoord is 1.2, but yeah, yeah, it is pretty darn low. And so, Michele Bridges, like, and the other big concern. So I ended up moving him down kind of as we've been talking about it into this tier as well. We're have, I bring a Miller, Tramer, Fee, the man. I have them here because the other big concern, and I think it was positional rankings years ago, a couple years ago where I brought up this idea that perimeter defense is a young man's game. And if Michele Bridges, like he's a solid team defender, he does a lot of things well now. He's just this classic low usage guy, and he did have a stretch with Brooklyn where he's a little bit more, but that's far enough ago now. And you know, this is age 29 season. At least his fix is three point shooting. Like last year we're worried that his form was all weird. And I've just lost it. He said 38% on five for 36. So that's still below the positional average in terms of volume, which you think it could be higher on this Nick team. But yeah, I mean, he basically is just doesn't really, he's not really elite in anyone area in a way that he's just going to cause problems for teams on either end, but he also is like going to be totally solid. So that's your 17th best ball for it. It's and it's amazing like how steep the drop off is going to be in a little bit from some of these guys. Yeah, but we have another little group. But yeah, I think Michele Bridges the so I haven't been I moved out this year. I may move him down within it because the other problem with Bridges is just that if he takes a step back in any of the things that he still does well, then he's a much less dangerous, much less interesting player. I know one of the other guys don't like, I mean, yeah, so I think I'm going to move him down within this tier. I think the next guy that we can talk about is Dylan Brooks and Brooks, it's incredible how indispensable he's been at times for this for this Phoenix Suns team. I mean, we're seeing it now. It's not true in terms of the on off net rating and things like that, but yeah, I mean, but he'll be ensuring to see over this next. Now, it's kind of silly season, but over this next month or so, how indispensable he actually is will be an interesting question. And so Brooks, he's at round up 55% true shooting on 33% total creation, but that 33% total creation is way higher than a lot of defense first guys. He's taken on a large role still not doing it. He's taking a lot of threes right now, but he's not making a ton of those threes. Yeah, his team created stuff is actually ballet. He's actually shooting better off the dribble relative to league average than his spot ups or team created threes, only at 34%. He's kind of, it seems like he had embraced that shooting role more in Houston. And now he's got to ball more. He can't make any of his team created stuff again, just like in Memphis. Yeah. And I mean, he's he's never been great from two 50% this year on the highest. So he has the highest 2.0 percentage of his career and the highest attempt rate over this large of a season. He had a higher one in 2122, but he only played 30 games that 32 games that year. So I think Brooks, he's done, he's become, I think in a lot of ways, a better version of himself. I mean, just that that role within the offense is wild for this son's team. They've they've needed a lot of that stuff. How do you feel about him defensively compared to some of these brethren? Yeah, I do like that he can guard up a lot more. And he's still as credible guarding smaller players though that ability has waned a little bit. He has a great option to guard the opposing power for like he's just a brick shit out. He's never going to get back down. He's really intense. It might pick up some falls and get messed up that way. He still is at 3.9 follows for 36. But I still feel very good. I mean, you can even switch on to some centers or guard centers sometimes if you have in that put the center on some non thread and put them behind the play. He could guard Victor Wembe and Yamar. That sort of player, even Nicole, a Yokech potentially reasonably well. So yeah, I still think he's really good there. See, he's maybe at the top of this group for me. I'm not sure how much I really value his ability to make long twos at 47%, which is okay. But he also is just never ever going to pass. And when you consider how much he's had the ball, 4% passing creation and 26% scoring creation. And he also is turning the ball over a fair amount too. So I think ultimately I, and when he never is getting, he never gets to the foul line either. It's just he's never is going to create that official offense. Like yeah, throw it to him at the end of the clock. Devon Booker is out. Maybe you can create some okayish shots for you on occasion. But you don't want to really be giving him the ball that much. But I do think there's also something to be said for just his overall vistiness. His team always play hard. He's a big guy who pushes that to happen. So yeah, I think he deserves to be right in this group for me. I guess we should have the Ingram discussion. I assume you had him ranked at about 57 and 58, something like that. About half that 24. And with Ingram, it's so I basically have this, I have one tier at the top of the tier below my next tier, which is like kind of definite starters. And we'll get into some of those guys. Ingram, we talked about this a little bit. We did that 15 and 60 mailbag and we talked about the Raptors, which is offensively because quarterly his value is on the offense. Ben like where what does he do that that inspires panic in the defense because for most the offense, I mean very little it looked like if he had this level of usage and did do that, he would be in the top 10. So I think ranking him 16th thing acknowledges that. 48% on long twos basically takes takes about the most in the league has the hardest shot diet basically of anyone in the league, but doesn't add you know a KD or even to Mar de Rosan level of extra efficiency on those shots hasn't been done as much passing this year. He's basically been asked to do isolation scoring and hit some spot ups, which he's still is below the position average in terms of number of threes per 36. He's hitting 38% on those like he's at least will take those shots. You know, it doesn't really get to the basket or the foul line all that much and well, I think he's okay is a one on one defender. He will fall asleep off the ball, not a great help defender. All the things we talked about like not great to get back on defense doesn't particularly play all that hard, but you know, like there is some value in being the Toronto Raptors and Brandon Ingram is a big part of the Raptors being the Raptors this year. Even if he's almost certain and never win a championship because of the fact that he just has such a large offensive role and doesn't actually deliver that official offense and doesn't do the other things well, but yeah, like the Raptors being like an adequate half court offense like he's a fair part of that. So I don't think any of the other guys in this group are such great value ads. I think if your guys like a men top center OG who are have a lower offensive role, but are truly defensive difference makers at this position like they're way better than him. You know, an average three and D starting small four is about the same as him. I think that's reasonable. I'm just a way. little bit lower because of what you have to do a brown, Brendan Grim. It's just that idea of, okay, you need a better best offensive player. You need that lead perimeter because he's not good at either of the small forward things defensively like he can't be the guy, the wing defender and he's helped defense stuff is generally pretty bad. So it's, and I understand all that, but it's just like, yeah, he's like one of the top two offensive players on some Pell teams that were slightly above 500 and now he's with top two offensive player on a Raptor team is slightly above 500. So that has value. Again, it's, it were, he's not in the top half the league and starting small forward to me, but yeah. So that's why I, I guess it's just really, I think we have absolutely zero disagreement on what Brandon Grim actually is and what he will continue to be, although at least he's been healthy. You know, that's one thing you can put up other in his cap for this year. And that's just like your, like I don't think that, you know, if you have Keegan Murray's other guy in this group or like Tray Murphy or whatever, like are you really are those guys like pushing you to be some like 55 win juggernaut as the small forward, like probably not either, right? They're, they're kind of guys and English as a guy as well, but just in it with a different skill set. Agreed. And I think that it's, it's, I mean, we've had this conversation a lot over the years of about like just kind of where, like what you need with that. But let's go to Keegan Murray. And I think Murray, I brought up this idea before that I'm trying to be more charitable to guys that are in bad team situations. And there is no argument that Keegan Murray has anything other than that. But so for Keegan Murray, it's this, it's hard thing to square where, you know, the theory of him, the best iteration of him on both ends of the port. And we had part of this conversation a year ago and it's even more stark now just due to him missing, missing so much time and being bad when he's played. The best version of him offensively, like his rookie year, Keegan Murray made 41% of a seven and a half threes for 36 minutes. That is fantastic. At some point he's going to need to start getting back to that level. Like he's, he had a couple of bad shooting years where he came on late. And then this year, he's had all these injury issues. And, you know, I think it up here was a, yeah, the thumb issue, but shooting 28% for three 49% shooting in 79 three minutes. So this is, this is a provisional ranking that I think he could just be better than this on a good team. Same. And I mean, so, so if we kind of take his career averages, so career average, he's 36 and a half percent three point shooter on on seven per 36. So if we're going to kind of round there, like that's still a valuable player, but it's a lot less interesting than what he was when it was when it was a lot higher than that. But Murray has grown on the defensive end. And I think being in a credible situation from a coaching and like him, when you go to an average team or a randomized team that helps him so much from coaching and from surrounding talent standpoint, doing a little bit less, having guys who actually know how to get him the ball, having a system that actually makes sense with that. Like those things would help him a lot. And he can marry like he's already 25, like this is age 25 season. So it's not this like young, young guy who's still figuring all but out, but he has the building box. And so I don't have them in the same tier as somebody like like train Murphy, I have Murphy a little bit higher. But in part because I just believe Murphy is so good as a shooter that that stuff works and everything else and that this idea that I brought up in the 1560 was miscast offensively. But I think that Keegan Murray, like I'm hanging on maybe too much to what he was a few years ago offensively, but like he's been in a bad enough situation that I'm willing to give him some latitude. Yeah. And you could throw the coach in there as well. And the point guard situation and all these things. But between health, not making shots, this is the last year of a grace period for him. If he's not able to emerge as at least a quality three point option by this time next year, then we'll be talking about him as one of the worst contracts in the. Then you'll have them as low as I have brain and anger. I mean, maybe even lower honestly. Obviously, he's 28% for three is pretty rough. Let's talk about Murphy. You know, we've hit on him quite a bit in recent weeks. And I think his shooting is really good. And I don't think he does. I guess he's got pretty good fast break finisher and you know, can cut and get some all you oops and stuff. His health was a concern. He has played over 2000 minutes already this season at 35 minutes of game. Obviously, it's been the Pellas. His defense hasn't been great. I still think he's basically a third perimeter defender where, okay, maybe he's not just a total pigeon, but you don't want to put him on one of the two best perimeter threats on the other team either. And so like that fit is kind of difficult to me. But the shooting is very impressive. I just I wouldn't want to be one of these teams. It's like, oh, we're not trading three first round picks for this guy because he has a good contract. It's like, yeah, I just a paying him as much as you're paying him and really trying to win at the highest level. I do wonder about that. But so yeah, I mean, I think like right in this range, like his shooting is definitely something that the defense like really has to account for. I don't think his he's quite versatile as Miller as a shooter, but pretty close. Like he can't shoot it on the move quite as well. He shoots more of a such off. It'll take super deep ones. Like he's a great shooter for someone else that I have in this tier. So just to have it out there, my tier runs from 17 to 23 is Lou Dork. I mean, I'm sure some people would be surprised that we haven't talked about him at all yet. The starter on the reigning champions, the reigning best team in the league. And for Dorth, there are a couple of a couple of positives and a couple of negatives. So one of them is that he, you know, I think that his three point shooting this year, like even if he was a little bit ahead of what I would have expected in prior years. So like the last two years, Lou Dork on threes shot 39% two years ago, 41% on basically the same volume seven per 36 as he did this year. So he said 34% this year. I expect him to be better. Like it's, it's that idea where he's actually not that far from his career averages, but I think Lou Dork made himself into a better shooter than he was. However, his, even though he's not taking bad shots inside the arc and that is a huge positive, he doesn't get to the line anymore. But the big concern for me with Lou Dork beyond and I can't factor this in too much of the play style. The way that he aggravates me is this idea that this, Lou Dork, so this is age 26 season. So for gaming this out, it's probably age 27. If I think he's a little bit overrated as a defensive player in the first place. But if you start to factor in a little bit of age-related regression because that happens younger with perimeter defense than it does with some other things, I think there's a chance that he's just not, he's just not that guy moving forward. Even if the offense improves closer to where it was that his defense isn't good enough to prop up his limited offense after at this point. Yeah, I think that's a reasonable way to look at it. Now he hasn't been deployed as much as kind of a big body, slightly shorter version of Dylan Brooks. We started to see that at least a little bit recently. He's gotten engaged with the coyotes as well at times. So that is maybe an under explored aspect of what he does. He really has been mostly depicting it smaller players over the years. I do think that he's just a level below some of the reasonable shooters. And then he's really just can't do anything inside the arc for 42% contested finishing. I think his inside the arc game has taken a dip. Maybe his last year was his best year on that in terms of his driving and decision making. And yeah, I do think he's definitely gets, he's the guy who's going to get left open on this lender team. He gets spoon fed a lot by Shago to a salxander. We have his three point shot quality at 37.2%. He's three percentage points below that in terms of actually making them this year. That's a pretty high number for a guy who's not a center or who doesn't take all of his shots on the corner. Like he's most of his shots. His three's 55% of them are uncontested. So that's actually right around the league average kind of thing. So that he, maybe I'm not giving him quite enough credit there. But I do worry about things falling off. Like, he doesn't really give you a ton of transition. And I don't think he's, he doesn't have a ton of size or length that in this OKC system with everyone he has behind him. Yeah, you can just like get into guys like crazy. Only have to play 28 minutes of game. And if we want to fall, go ahead and follow because they have eight guys who can come in and do the exact same job as him. But I, yeah, in a different situation, I would worry about a little bit. So still a very good player, not someone who I think should be getting, you know, a $30 million a year contract at the small forward position. So I'm more feeling like he's in kind of that mid 20s type of range. OK, yeah, so, yeah, sorry. I'll give you my right hand him. He was. I had him in the next group at number 23. Yeah, I currently have him at 21. But I've considered moving him down. And I think there's an interesting juxtaposition with the next guy I want to talk about, which is Jalen Tyson. And Tyson, to me, he doesn't have some of the what Lou Durt does defensively, but he takes on a lot of tough assignments. We did the strategy stream with Charlie Rolf and Charlie Rolf, the VP of stats for the NBA. Talked about how like his main assignments have been these really tough guys. And he'd take, and then there's somewhat different bridge out of the like, at the end, where he takes on basically the toughest time and seeking get for the calves. And Tyson, to his immense credit, like he, he's taking six threes per 36 minutes, all catch a shoot, but that's OK. But I don't think he's going to make 46% for his career. But there is, I think that on most teams, I would rather have Jalen Tyson than Lou Durt couldn't quite get there with Tyson just because he hasn't really had any kind of a role in the playoffs. And I'm not sure that he's going to hold up at this defensive type of level on a playoff team, which is really what you're hoping to get. Maybe I said, I try to get out ahead of guys. I wanted to get there with Tyson. And I just, I wanted to, I just pumped the break slightly. So I had him in the same group as Dork, but at 27, there is one guy. And I also think Tyson. and could do more as an inside the arc player than he's necessarily been given a chance to do on Cleveland. Andrew Wiggins, I still had it number 20 shooting the ball very well this year 40% from three. He's really been a reliable high 30s three point shooter for the last few years at this point and playing 31 minutes of game. Their offense has been a lot better when he's been off the floor. I don't think that has much to do with him necessarily that he'd have a pretty good bench. But it's still a little bit above average in terms of true shooting for the position. So just like a totally solid three and D wing. I think his defense might be a little bit worse than someone like Dort. Certainly worse than a Sar Thompson. Probably a little bit better than Tyson. Like it's a one on one defender. I still think he's really good and is not going to get beat. He just has so much length. He's gotten pretty strong. Not as much of an impact guide. Not making guys as uncomfortable. But just as a totally solid starting small forward who is acceptable on both ends. I still have a little bit higher than Dort or Josh Hard who I had in this group or Sar Thompson even Aaron Neesman was at the top of the next group for me. But Wiggins I do wonder about the halo effect of even what he was back in 2022 is now 31. But the numbers are so pretty good. And he still is a totally solid defensive option at this position. Absolutely. I have Wiggins 18. So we're in pretty firm right there. You don't even hire the me then. Yeah. And Wiggins having the most efficient season of his career in terms of true shooting on the lowest usage of his career. That's the sort of thing that can and should happen. So I'm not discouraged by that. I'm actually encouraged by that. Wiggins is the read. But I think he'll be good enough defensively and he's kind of transitioned a little bit in terms of who he guards best. But that's totally fine. Somebody else. I had a lot of trouble and this will not surprise you with where to put Cam Johnson because the Cam Johnson that we saw last year offensively with the Brooklyn nets was was a version of a terror. I mean, he was last year 39% on 8.23s for 36. But what he added last year and we did a whole breakdown of this at the time was a more dynamic inside the art game. He was the was able to get up to about seven twos per 36 made 58% of those and some of that was unsustainable. You don't really see that like that combination was ridiculous. That's how you get to 63% true shooting on 23 usage at the time. He has been not anywhere close to that in terms of the role within the offense or the success. Like he's shooting 40% on threes, but he's dropped three attempts per 36 minutes. So he's down to 5.2, which is terrifying when you consider that that's what he does best. And I still think that 14% usage this year. If that's if your argument is an offensive argument and you're at 14% usage, it gets pretty tough arguments to make. Well, the offensive argument is that this year is the is not the relevant. It's not so but like how is that? Like it's I don't know. I put it on David Adelman for not using him enough or I just I mean it's it's so hard. So yeah, I mean, but but the guy that he was last year and I mean, yeah, I came Johnson is also older than because it because he came in. He came in old and had this kind of breath through. Yeah, he's 30 with a lot of injury issues and you know, whenever he got, you know, little bruise, he could just sit out last year on the nuggets. He seemed that was tanking anyway. And so I had him at 31. I do have him in the same 21 to 33 tier with a bunch of other guys we talked about and others we haven't yet, but I just I can't get him much of a he's kind of at the bottom of this group for me. He's and then I mean, I think his argument some of the same weaknesses about his game apply as applied to trade Murphy, but trade Murphy is just so much more dynamic than he is at this point. I really don't trust Johnson's health overall either. So that's yeah. Well, and he hasn't he hasn't ever stepped up defensively like it's and he has been and this was a theory I brought up last year when he was on the nets that came Johnson benefited from not being on relevant teams the last couple of years because we didn't fixate on his defensive problems. And so now he's on the nuggets. We'll have to see where that goes. Now we're focusing on his offensive problems instead. See, I have I have challenges with how to deal with him and then another guy who's having a really down turn here, but this one I think I'm more comfortable with why it's happened is Aaron Smith. And so Neesmith, I really like him defensively. He's only 26, but he's dropped from 65% true shooting to 52% this year. But the combination of no Tyree's Halibur and just the overall disaster that is this Pacer's offense like Aaron Smith wasn't going to fix that and he's a dependent player. So I'm willing to I'm in a 65% that's a little bit ridiculous, but I'm willing to believe that the the core of his game is still there that it didn't change it didn't fall off a cliff because he went from age 25 to 26. Yeah, I wanted a big drop off. So it's been 59% from two last year and 42% from two this year. I do wonder about his durability both within games where he's not really going to get to 30 minutes a game due to whether that's due to falls or that he is just a belief that he can't play much more or this is the second straight year he's had a pretty severe ankle injury that he's missed a bunch of time with. So that was and he's also slightly small though I do like some of his rim protection stuff. So I'm ultimately didn't put him quite in the same group as someone like Andrew Wiggins. There's got a little bit more size a little bit more reliable, but I had him right at the top of the next group. So I had him ranked 21st definitely. I mean, to see it, if you think about what he did, obviously is the high water mark probably for his career, but what he did in that game one against New York, like he is capable of shooting the ball at that type of a level, which a and also really defending at a pretty high level too. So they're not that many guys that you can say that about. If you could assure me that he could play the lovely play that last year and play 32 minutes a game and play 70 games, then he would be in five spots higher. So this is kind of a he's grandfathered in with what he did last year, but also I'm a little bit worried that about this whole Pacer's team, honestly, like to just assume they're going to get back to the same level. Like I hope that happens, but I'm not going to just pencil that in. I'm trying to think about other because like we I think we both have kind of big tears right around here. We've discussed some of the guys not just all of them. I'm kind of thinking about this also in terms of who a listener might be most surprised we haven't mentioned. And I think one of those guys is Sartonson and a Sartonson, not that it's gospel, obviously, but a Sartonson is currently second in defensive EPM this season. I think that's overstating things. First of all, premier players are overrated in EPM overall. And then but also his deficiencies on offense are so pronounced. And I'm just it's way more extreme because his ball skills are so much worse than a man where I'm I'm uncomfortably confident that he's going to be a negative defensive player for the entirety of his career. Or yeah, negative offensive player. Yes. Yeah, 55% true shooting, which is a lot lower than his brother. And while he does have some passing chops, 9% passing creation, he could do some stuff in transition, obviously finished some along the baseline. One of the biggest things though that I think is a hole in his game is he basically has to play power for it. But he can't really guard power for it on defense. And maybe if he changed things up a little bit, it would be and that was just his role. And he didn't have to buy his Harris next to him to guard those power for that he might make that more of an emphasis. But every time I see him guarding in the post, he just like isn't physical. And guys just move him and back him down. He'll kind of do the Matador go for the steal and then he'll miss that. And the guy will get a layup of fair amount of times. So with his body type, he should be able to guard guys like that. I was always like, well, hey, last year in the playoffs, why not put him onto Carl Anthony Towns once Tobias Harris got in Fultures. So Jalen during it didn't have to do it. And I think the answer was that he just can't with his mentality hold up something like that physically. He also picks up a lot of files just in general, even now. And it's just tough for him to close game. So his defense is really game changing on the perimeter, but he doesn't have the same versatility to me as someone like Dylan Brooks does. And of course, can't shoot it as well as as he does either. And if he was really that good, he would be averaging more than 26 minutes of game and he would be an auto close guy. So I have him at number 22 at the top of this next group because that defense is just so good and having him as a weapon that you can deploy does really matter. And if you look at some of the impact metrics, right, like plus 3.5 defensive EPM and it's pretty remarkable. He also gives you some secondary room protection as well as a 14% contest rate and 61% opponent shooting allowed. All those things are very impressive, but I wish if he's a power for it on offense, but he can't defend power for it's undefense. If you want him in that role, obviously you can still deployment in a different role and maybe I've cade guard the power for it. If you moved on from Tobias Harris and played a smaller player, but I want him to be more defensively versatile. If the offense is going to be as bad as it is or maybe more accurately as limited as it is. And all of the same criticisms that we levied on a men in terms of not being as aggressive enough on offense, not doing the things that he should be his calling cards. He's not as good a transition player as he should be. And so I think it's our those sorts of the lower hanging fruit getting better at that could could bump him up even if the jump shot never comes around. And so it's frustrating that that stuff hasn't happened. So I generally, I have some general tears and then I can't do it. So this is the reason I say probable starter looking for an upgrade. And I think that's kind of where the pistons are in certain respects and like, potentially Ron Holland will be that afraid potentially. But a are it's I like him a lot defensively, but the rest of it just isn't quite there. Um, all that you pick. I just picked somebody in this tier. You want to pick somebody to talk about? All George. Mm hmm. And was actually starting to ramp up some, you know, still is a big threat as a shooter. Still is a big threat as an offball defensive player can give you a little bit of passing 10% passing creation. I probably don't want him as a pick and roller and ISO guy, but every once in a while you can get hot, particularly if he's being guarded by a bad defender, can't guard on the ball particularly well anymore. You don't want him in that role, but he still is going to be a number two there and we'll just give you a lot as a intelligent health defender. Then the suspension happened. It's really kind of a bummer or just another semi lost season for him. The sixers are 8.3 points for 100 better when he's on the floor. That's his whole career. It seems been way better when he's played. It's just, it's really an availability issue to me at this point. If I think if you could pencil him in for 2000 minutes, then yeah, he would be in the top 20, but it's just not realistic at this point. All through one other flaw in the mix and something that I thought about last year, but is more pronounced this year in a small sample, which is Paul George was usually like he in his better years. He got over 50% from two. Had to had one short season with the clippers, where he's worse than that. 49% on two's last year, 46% in the 800 minutes roughly he's played this year at 35, potentially going into 36, like he'll turn 36 in May. I worry a little bit that that erosion is just some version of real and his shooting is still there, but if you kind of take that down and take him down a little bit defensively, like it's just it's not as useful a player as what he was. I think this is a fair place to put him. I have him in this group too. I've been 28, but it's just like that is a concern for me on top of all the other stuff and the age and everything else. I'll bring up one of the ahead of the game plays, so I might be a little bit early, but I have reasons for it, which is Keishan George. I have in this tier as well. And the reason why I do, so again, other one of these guys who has been in a worse overall offensive situation, the Wizards of End disaster from a coaching perspective, from a talent perspective, just like the non-evident traditional point guard, I believe a lot more now in Keishan George's jump shot. And he's not a traditional kind of wing defender, the like, said and forget it on those stuff, guys. But I really like Keishan George's defensive playmaking. And so I don't know exactly what his ideal role is defensively, but I think he can be a part of a successful defense. And a lot of the numbers are very down on him in that respect, but the overall situation in Washington, I think, is dragging him down, whereas I think other guys, but like it's giving him too much of the blame when I think that blame goes other places defensively. I think there's a lot of potential with Keishan George. And while he's largely just been the power forward this year, the room protection numbers that he's had are pretty intriguing. And the Wizards team that allows a lot of shots at the rim, but also tries to contest them like Alixar's another guy with a huge contest rate. George's that 22% contest rate, 63% shooting a rod. Like that's very good for a small forward. Now hasn't had to be in any kind of a number one stopper kind of role. I think you would probably have to pencil him in as at minimum a number two guy on a good team, but 38% on threes and 6.7 for 36. Like that's pretty solid. He also could be pretty decent as a driver as well. And while you just assume that someone on the tanking team just doesn't quite know how to play. And you mentioned that the numbers are pretty horrendous for the Wizards defense overall. You consider what the mission has been in Washington that he's had too big of an offensive role that they're coaching. Shall we say hasn't exactly been maximizing victories. There's a lot of uncertainty, but I thought I had a number 29. So that's given what he in theory could be. If you got him in the right situation like the skill set that he's flashed or intriguing, you just have to say, Hey, there's given where he's been growing up in an NBA sense, you're just not you just don't know whether he's what ready to truly play winning basketball, even as much as some of his individual statistics that might indicate. So should we talk more about Josh Hart than we have? I mean, he gives you up higher than this, right? At 26 in the same group once again. To some degree, I think he has been he hasn't quite been stress tested as much as a defensive player because he's been playing with bridges and OB these last couple of years. And I do think that at age 31 now, the number of games that he's changing with his energy has decreased from his peak. He's having a pretty solid shooting season though by his standards, although he's always going to be tested out there as well. I mean, he really is almost more the size of it. Shooting guard, we have him in the small forward because he doesn't shoot that well and he's kind of big and tough and rebounds and has largely been asked to play that role. And he's almost even been more of an offensive power forward at times. But I think he's at least can be counted on to make shots. He just doesn't have that versatile of a jumper still. And some of those headlong transition rushes were not seen as much of that. But I still think as a starter at this position, he's solid. You know, this is a a lower end starting player, but again, probably needs to be your number two defender on the pruner. So just someone else who's established at this point in his career as a good player at this position, but also has some flaws. So I'm I'm not I've never just been like totally wowed by Josh Hart. And the kind of doing the stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet, I haven't felt him in his many nick games. I watch a lot of nick games this year, but I still think you have to respect to how good of a player he's been over the years and continues to be. Yeah, that's pretty much where I am on it as well. Also a way better passer than a lot of guys this position to at 6.1 assists for 36 and 12% passing creation. So he will give you some of that and a lot of it happens on the fast break, which is pretty valuable. And he played so hard and like he has limitations, but he is able to be a part of successful teams and has been a lot over the course of the year. I'll throw in somebody else, you know, I mentioned Kishan George as a player that I was getting out early on. I also have Cedric coward in this year. Part of it is that coward, you know, who's missed a lot of time, kind of in the second half of the season, which is disappointing, but I brought up before how I think he's an impactful rebounder. So he's a different kind of three in certain respects, but also the other reason why I have him a little bit higher is that I, when you watch him and going back, you can look at the kind of the shooting stats on him, you know, unusual college career because he only played in six games at Wazoo, but then he played it used to Washington before that. Like Cedric coward career 39% 3 point shooter in college. And I'm not going to say, like he's shooting 34% on 6 per 36 this year. I'm not going to say he's going to guaranteed he's going to shoot 39% on NBA threes, but I think if you add that in, you get him, maybe he's more of like a 35 36, maybe even a little bit better than that. That combined with his effectiveness from two, that's a player that I think you can have as a starter. You feel, you feel pretty good about it. And if you can take any steps forward, because this is, this is coward's inch 22 season. He's a little bit older than some rookies, but he still has plenty of room to grow. Yeah, I think where he's most interesting is, as you notice, a two point finisher and his ability to attack closeouts get out in transition, contribute on the glass. The fact that he doesn't really make any plays concerns me in the position average is 1.3 steals per 36 he's at 0.8. And with that amazing 72 wingspan he's averaging 0.6 blocks. Does have a contest percentage of 18% but a lying 69% shooting around the room. So there's not much evidence yet that he is a valuable help defender, but certainly is someone who's big enough, and has big enough wingspan that you're not going to just go right through him. It's hard to trust him, though, as someone that you can just put on the opponent's best player and he's helped the grids, because they just haven't had anyone else like him at all this season. He also has had some health issues in his career, including this season. But yeah, as you say, being early on him, I do believe in his ability to make spot ups. Okay, he's at 34% this year, but his jumper looks pretty good. I think he'll be at least soon as to get guarded out there. So at this point in the table, I got to rank 30th, especially as someone who could be coming up potentially. I do like him. Najee Marshall, I also had here. We talked a couple of weeks ago about just kind of what a weird player he is. I mean, he's had 61% true shooting is a devastating driver. His floater game is really good. He's attacked and transition, a lot. I still think he's a solid on-ball defensive option, but his shooting since arriving in Dallas, I was really encouraged by his shooting. His last season in New Orleans. And then just in part because I think nobody shoots three pointers in Dallas. He hasn't really been asked to do that as much. He was brought in to play with Luca barely did that. And so he's just not taking any threes whatsoever. And that makes things difficult. But there is a magnitude to the rest of his skill set that you have to respect. He's got some similarities to Josh Hart as well. I would say but Hart of course has made himself into a better shooter. But Marshall is like, he's someone. If you put the run guy in and he's just going to go score on it. So I do think that needs to be respected. I like Najee Marshall for a long time. But unfortunately, just having building out the sample that he's that the shooting year, that 39% on the Pelicans might end up being one of the bigger shooting apparations that we that we see. I just just would word is I mean, he's been career 30% and he's been above 30% one other time in his career. And that was in 32 games as a pal. And simply not even taking them either in three for 36. It's like you basically might not even be bothering at that point at this. position. And so I have them, I have not much martial a little bit lower but not too much lower. And for that reason, just like I like him and I want to like him more. Somebody that I want to bring up kind of in this like, you know, guys that we like in different ways. Tari Eason is at times I've been so I've been there's so much that I like about him defensively. He's chaotic. He can can force trouble. The knickers are down this year and that we're good. And and the other thing that's just so confounding with him is that Tari Eason this year. So he's career 36% 3. She had never shot above 36 flat in any season. This year Tariy is sitting making 40% on 6 per 36. He's played over a thousand minutes so far this year. But he's been a pretty good two point finisher and he's at 46% this year. So like how you square all of those things up. But the reason why I have Eason below I have him so like in terms of play quality, I would probably have him in this 22 to 30 group. I moved him down because there are persistent availability concerns with him. Like we're at that point now where it just seems like there's always something and he played 82 games this working year but then he played 22 57 last year and we'll see where he ends up being this year. But like so if I could guarantee that Tari Eason would play as much as somebody like, you know, as much as somebody like Keishan George somebody else. Yeah, he'd absolutely be there because I believe that he'll be a better two point finisher and even if you regress his three point shooting a little bit. I think he's credible to an extent on that end. But you have to count in a little bit that he's going to miss some time and and why I want to talk about Eason a little bit is because he's a pending restricted for agent and so there's a duality of him in this area for me like around 30 if I'm a little bit below 30 if and it's the quality versus availability is because as you're like, oh, that's that's pretty low. But the 30th ranked small forward is still immensely valuable around the league. Yeah, Eason's been a bit of a confounder to me. I wanted to put him lower because as I've watched him this year, he just hasn't been as impactful defensively. He's been something is wrong with him just in the sense that like his athleticism is not popped nearly as well and you noted his two point finishing being just excruable, frankly, for the type of role that he has and he hasn't really been effective contesting shots around the basket, allowing 73% opponent shooting there and he's down to 1.7 steals per 36 and 0.8 blocks per 36. Like he just the whole Territors twins thing just hasn't really materialized. So other than the fact that he's made his three, which I'll be honest, I don't entirely trust. I mean, as recently as last playoffs, I thought he was a liability shooting the ball. Other than that, he's regressed kind of in every area and so I played 41 games. He's had these persistent injury issues. He's has been able to play back to backs and so I ultimately said yeah, like he's more proven than this next group of guys, which would be Ugunzala, Skelia Bray, Sikbe, Deandre Hunter, Aaron Wiggins, Ron Holland, Risa Shea, but also I'll echo the concert. Do you have a buddy playing well, but he just has not been that good. I think he'll, hopefully he can be better. The one guy I still haven't talked or actually there's two guys in this trip. I used to live in Taukba. One of his Josh Gidey, who I had at number 25 and he still is one of the best passers at this position. He's over the most at this position and he's now gotten up to league average in terms of his efficiency hitting 37% of his threes. He's become a adequate spot-up option. So offensively, I think it's kind of a number two offensive player. You feel like kind of okay, buddy. He definitely really juices your transition game. But then obviously he leads to the exact same defensive concerns that someone like Luke, Luke, Don Chichaz, but he obviously is nowhere near the offensive player as Don Chichaz. So as someone who could be the number two creator on, say, 39 win team, I think he has some value. But and some of the fit issues that he had at Oklahoma City have been called by the fact that he's shooting the ball better now as a spot-up guy. But the other issues of him defensively and still not being such a dominant offensive player. Even though he's getting the line more like there's definitely something there as an offensive player. So this is still only as age 23 right now. So I think you even with the fit issues and the fact that he's really should probably be a backup on our really high level of team. Like, you know, bad teams need good players too, I suppose, right? So that's why I have him at number 25. I have him in the 31 to 34 group. It's the similar conversation with Ingram, but I like Ingram better at some of the stuff that he does than getting. I have him in the 25 to 25 group. And yeah, because I so Gidey, I think that's it's fine. I mean, the. Yeah, we think of it. I think we have an understanding of what he was saying. But here's the only thing I was saying. If he were a passable defensive player, he would be way higher than like that. It's such a frustrating flaw for him. Like just being just competing doing okay there. Like I would feel a lot better, but he just hasn't been that guy. I want to talk about somebody else that maybe this is being a little bit early, but I'm not sure that it is that I have in this vicinity. And that's Max Christy. And Christy this year, you know, the the other guy in the Anthony Davis Luca Doncher trade. And it's so funny because his brother cam was the guy who was considered the shooter. I mean, 41% on 73s per 36 this year, over 50% on twos. And you wonder about kind of how he fits in like this, this Maverick's team has been so weird, so flawed. His overall role within the offense is hilariously small. 22% total creation, like that's one of the smallest of any player that we've mentioned at all in this recording. Right. Really that's one of the smallest of any player that we've mentioned in terms of total creation. Yeah, it's just because he doesn't doesn't do a lot of passing. Doesn't do a lot of serves. But what wants to do two points better than I cam Johnson though. Oh sweet Christ. But I think with Christy, a couple of different things that I think work in his favor. One is I'm giving him the like the Kings bump, which is players in such a bad overall situation. I think parts of it would be better. Not for him the shooting, but just kind of the overall role he'd be set up a little bit differently. It's been such a challenging circumstance. And with Christy, I'm at least I'm not going to say I'm encouraged, but maybe I'm intrigued a little bit. I think that he could be he could be better defensively than some of these than some of these guys. I mean, it'll be interesting because he doesn't have some of the size that like cam Johnson does, but cam Johnson doesn't use his size defensively at all. So I'm willing to roll those dice on on Max Christy a little bit. Yeah, to me, where I've been troubled by him and we got to ask, hey, where is he in the student guard rankings? And he's right on the borderline of that to me. He definitely gives you more defensively than your average starting shooting guard does, but he can get overwhelmed physically by some of the bigger guys. That stood out to me in some of the Dallas games that I've watched this year. Now, if you go back to what he was doing with the Lakers, he was by far the closest thing they had to a 3 and D player. And when he started getting more playing time, their season really took off last year. So I think he's probably because I've unhated the Luca trade. It's under discussed that that was a valuable player to get. And I do think he could be a starting small forward slash shooting guard. It's just he's not really probably strong or dynamic enough defensively to be your number one defensive option, especially not on the true small forward size guys. But yeah, the shooting I think is very impressive. Is it 41% on 7.1 to 36? I mean, that's really impressive. Last year, he was at 4 or so per 36 and shooting bot league average. So we'll see how real that actually is. But on his shooting star team, it's not like teams are just like leaving it open necessarily. So yeah, he's right at this like lower end starter high end backup group. Let's just roll through a few other guys haven't mentioned yet. Who will get in Dallas? Doesn't take that many threes. Doesn't take that many free throws. He's shooting 46% on the ones that he does take. But he's taking one per 36. So you do wonder whether his shooting will come through or not. But it's it's been passable. And he's really a great team defender. Very aggressive. Get out and transition. Smart cutter. And the on off numbers are just absolutely insane. Now this is his rookie year. But he's also on a really good team. And he's contributing on a really good team. Most of the why they have a 15 net rating thing on the floor comes from the fact that they have a 104 defensive rating. And some of that's going to be shooting luck. But also just how active he is as a help defender and just his overall energy is pretty massive really contributes on the glass to 8.1 for 36. So again, it got used maybe more of a specialist at this point in time. If you threw him in as you just to your starter, it probably doesn't look great. But the ability to make that kind of an impact as a bench player has to be respected. I'm just going to roll through some more guys here because it's running short on time. But sure, Kelly, who pray junior has bounced back as a shooter, not taking as many of them in a non taking situation, making 37 percent. That certainly is something that can win. He's never going to pass it. He's not the smartest player on either end. But still can be a totally fine option on the ball. Less exciting as an off wall player. But yeah, if you got to throw him in as you're starting small forward, you're going to be all right. You don't love that, but he's pretty good there. As you wish he was your first forward off the bench. But if he has to be a starter, you're not going to just be totally sunk as Philly has kind of shown within these last few years. Aaron Wiggins having a down year shooting the ball as well. But does give you some off the dribble skills. Probably an overrated defensive player. I think teams should actually attack him more when he's in the game. since there are so few options to do that with an OKC. the Rod Holland, kind of the same argument for him as Ugo Gonzalez, just how hard he plays. His steel rate is crazy high, really juices your transition. Just juices the energy of anyone who's playing with him, but obviously his shooting is absolutely horrendous at this point. I usually spend taking him, but that's not and he's not a terrible free-throw shooter, but he still really has to be more of a backup, but a quality one. Anyone you really wanted to hit on here? So we've covered everybody that I had a very small 31 to 34 group and then you've talked about a lot of the guys I had in the high end reserve group. Two more than I want to mention briefly that we haven't discussed and they're both rookies. Yeager Joman, who unfortunately is now out for the rest of the year, I'm very intrigued by the three-point shooting that he showed. I was super down on him coming out of BYU, but 38.5% on threes, taking 9 per 36 is phenomenal. That's really, really surprising and fair amount of that is self-created too. So we'll see where he is and this net team has been so bizarre. So I just wanted to flag that and then the other rookie is Ace Bailey. And Ace Bailey, the jazz are where defensive plus minus go to die, but I do think that what he's showing in terms of some of the core things, I thought that he was their best defender on Cooper flag and that game when Cooper flag went wild against the jazz. And he's shot died is looking, you know, times he's gotten a little bit, a little bit more of that record as Ace Bailey, but the idea that he could, especially with next year's team trying to be competitive, that he could be a competent starter, even as early as next year on a relevant team. Like I'm buying it, even if the numbers don't totally show it so far in his rookie year. Yeah, and you can see that it's possible. Maybe he's headed towards being like more of a tray Murphy type of player than someone you're really going to give the ball to, although his ability to shoot from mid range is something that tray doesn't have. And let's not forget that he's this age 19 season. So I had him at 43 years, the last guy that I ranked it in my tier eight, as just again, with the idea. And when he's actually played with the real jazz team, he's been a lot more efficient than when he was coming off the bench earlier in the year as the primary option. And now again, having to be a primary option where he's overstretched. But certainly has done some interesting things, needs to do more as a rebounder, needs to do more as a shot blocker and doing everything in the floor game too, which you wish he had a little bit more instinct for that type of stuff. Obviously, not exactly. I mean, I don't think he's been selfish, but that hasn't been a guy who's like creating a ton for his teammates either. Let's see here. Yes, Sidik Bay is kind of in this high end backup realm for me. The Andre Hunter is the same thing. I think he's not as terrible as he looked this season. Zachary Risa Shay recently lost his starting job and the hawks have kind of taken off since then I still think he's going to shoot it better in the next year than he did this year. And he's still 36%, but hasn't really been asked to do anything other than just shoot standstill threes. And it could be like a semi decent defensive option as long as the guy is not too strong. Still just someone who I think will be better in the next year. Yeah. Risa Shay, it's remarkable how similar his numbers are to last year. So he's shooting this exact same percentage from three on pretty similar volume. He's shooting slightly worse on twos on slightly lower volume, getting to the line a little bit less and weirdly. I mean, it's a small sample. He's only taken 65 free throws this year. Yes, that is a big problem. Only shooting 59% on them. That's a little bit of a flag. But like Risa Shay, there was this idea with his rookie year. Like, oh, yeah, you know, this is this could be the start of Southern positive. But when you have the same kind of the same statistical year, two years and a row, Andrew team is better when you come up the bench and start. That's definitely concerned for me. So I haven't around this vicinity as well. But I consider he's a recent, very recent number one overall pick. I think I thought we had to talk about him at least a little bit. Output Chris Middleton and DeMar de Rosan, kind of in the same category too. DeRosan's been taking Ambien before games since at least November. But the situation in Sacramento has just been such an unbelievable clon show. I can certainly understand that he's not exactly playing as hardest. But like the stuff that he does, he's still doing it. Maybe he's slightly muted. But I think he can come in off the bench and still cause problems for a defense on a reasonable team. He shouldn't be a starter anymore just because of the fact that he doesn't shoot the three and also is really more of a power for defensively. But I think he can be someone that would have to be respected and maybe at age 30, 60s just kind of done and that's just what the also just never ever gets hurt either. But and that's just kind of what he's going to be right now. But I'm still is an efficient overall score still gets to the foul line. I shouldn't be starting. But I think he could really contribute as a backup at this point, even on the team that we had. Maybe shall we say slightly higher aspirations. Clay Thompson was also in this group for me, quietly taking 12.63s per 36 and making 38% of them still doesn't really do anything else other than maybe defending the post sum, but that that is still could be a valuable skill set coming off the bench, maybe closing the right game, you know, winning you a couple of games here and there. I think the wild clay stat is that he's shooting that 38% on 12.63s per 36 and still has 34, sorry, 54% true shooting because he's 42% on twos and not getting to the line ever. It's incredible to shoot that volume and still not be an official player because the other stuff is going that badly. Some of that is ecosystem in the maps have been a mess offensively, but it's a concern. I have him in the script too. Chris Middleton has looked a little bit better with Dallas. I still think he could be a okay bench option. So you're kind of at this range now where you have basically just one way players. So Isaac Acoro and Caleb Martin are that on defense. So blog crew of Ali can't do anything on offense. I think maybe I got on a real team he could come in and be kind of closer like what Ron Holland is and Detroit. Justin Edwards has had just some really miserable shooting slumps. I thought he looked pretty good when he got more of a chance last night, made some plays defensively. It's actually at 1.8 steals per 36 on the season. And I think his shooting will be something that needs to be respected. That's about it. You know, Corey Kispert is in this range. Re2 will make some shots, not be a horrible team defender. Um, risers and followers for you. We forgot to do this actually on Jean guards. We got like five minutes left here. I mean, I, I think my list has to start with LeBron James. I mean, LeBron just deteriorate. I mean, and I had LeBron. So I looked it up. I had him fourth last year, but I said it would be his age 41 season and he's, so I currently have him 21st. Oh, yeah, I didn't have him quite that low, but he was a, a follower for me. I got him at 12th right now from 4th as well. Cade's a big riser. Detroit was just starting to really emerge around this time last year. Um, why huge riser for me? Hilariously, he was 10th last year. He was, he had his first month last year coming back from the injury. He wasn't great. And then he was really starting to come on. And I think he's been way better this year than he was at any point last year. So yeah, he's all all the way up at number four for me. Hilariously, and that's a nice rise from age 33 to 34. Peyton was number one for me last year, felt at number three. KD he was number three for me, felt at number five, you know, kind of about what you would expect. PG, I still had at 13 last year and just another year basically not playing as sunk him. Dorx is shooting falling off his lowered his hem by quite a bit. Another big riser for me. It's a position change. So it's harder to do documents document, but Denny Optia, I had him 18th at power forward last year. And now I have a ninth at a stronger position and small forward. That's, that's really important. Yeah, DeAndre Hunter was a big follower. Dorosen, of course, Cam Johnson fell about 10 slots for me. Doreen Finney Smith, I had number 26 and actually as a small forward last year, I moved into power forward because he's so slow now and he's not going to be the 26th ranked power forward for me. Max Christie actually had basically in the same range last year. Brandon Miller was a huge riser for me though. I had him, he went from 29. I remember he was out for the year at this time last year, went from 29 all the way up to 11 for me. And yeah, I think that was really the only guys who stand out a ton. Nice Smith after his playoffs rose up some for me also. I remember he basically had missed almost all of last year and was just coming back for like a month and a half or so at this point a season ago. Oh, Jalen Tyson's userizer, when it going from 42 into the mid 20s. And I think even him being 42 last year was like, I had him in the 50s. Yeah, I mean, that was actually like kind of speculative just based on kind of what I'd seen through and it's not really barely played last year. All right, well, this is fun. As always, let us know your disagreements and we're of course moving towards our top 10 players in the NBA. A lot of these guys will be on this. So it is worth noting that I don't think any of the top three players in MVP are going to be small for this. It used to be like the most premium position and it is kind of interesting that centers have become so much more valuable than maybe 10 years ago. Alright, we will talk to you all next time. Thanks so much for listening and subscribing.