Small but Mighty — Grounded Values, Smart Systems and Revenue Diversity

[Music] Welcome to the LITL Business Brilliant's podcast, where weeks will how to create an LITL Business that serves you the time and enjoy that we know you deserve. Now let's dive into our next conversation. [Music] Here we are. I am looking forward to this conversation. It's been a little while in the making to get the very fabulous Kate McMahon founder of Kids and Co-Lab in to the podcast. I'm excited and nervous. I'm just an upper chat. So you are an occupational therapist and a clinical supervisor and a real grassroots inclusion advocate. Like you walk the talk on on this and I'd love to kind of really light that part up of your thinking and your business. However, you will do a much better job than me in terms of just giving us an overview of who you are, where you are, your team, the beautiful part of the world that you're working. So throwing you the talking stick for the first minute or so. Thank you for having me, Kathy. That's a really generous and kind introduction. I think you have probably done your homework there in that walking the talk piece does sort of, I was nodding along then when you said that. In terms of who I am and on the team. So I'm a pediatric OT by trade. I know some OT say no, you're a tea who works in pediatric. But to me, I'm pretty, what's the word all in on the piece space. I work on the center and coast in Queensland and very lucky to live and work in a beautiful part of the world. We're a small community based disability team of OTs and some beautiful sports and yet all pediatric. We really love working in the complex disability space and supporting the clients that we work with their families, but also the wider Sunshine Coast disability community. Your business is only a few years old and what you've achieved is amazing. It will totally get to that. But you left a leadership role in a large not for profit, which whilst I understand, I'm also really, really curious about what this calling to your own business was about. Well, part calling and part necessity. So this business was my second baby. And if you can count it like that. So it was somewhat born in between maternity leaves. And so it was about me really wanting to actually transition from that leadership role into doing a little bit more clinical work. And so I was doing a little bit dabbling alongside in my leadership position in the old in the number of it. But I wanted to do more of that. And I knew that I couldn't support the team and do the leadership that was required of me whilst maintaining part time. So it was quite a selfish start to the business. But. So many businesses have started age during maternity leave where the side hustle becomes a big deal. So I think it's going to be more to it than that. Like did you get a sense that your own show would give you more flexibility or more freedom or more creative license or more playfulness or rock with those are what were those draw cards? Well, one of the things that happened while I was having on my first round of maternity leave. And I took it back to that leadership position. But when I was about to go on leave, we had a revamp to our goal setting and outcome and we had a very good time. And I think that was a great time. Yeah, we've experimented with a few different ways and options and self rating and all sorts of things. And how necessarily got it sweet to where we could like it. One of the things this is sort of a side, like sort of values living it out kind of side question that we do is we have this little, like service guide is what I've called it because I haven't been I'm going to come up with a better word. There's literally just a trolley board that when that I sort of set up early on in terms of like how do we do these things? Like one of the really basic examples is when we're first on boarding a new family member, we save the family's number in the therapist's phone and so that they can answer the phone with high Mary instead of a long. This is kids in colab. So and then with that board, I've had every time a new team member or even an OT student comes on board, I asked them to bring their insight from what they've seen and what what have they noticed from their past experience. What do they see us doing repeatedly internally to add to that like growing document in the hope that we can kind of really. I tick and find those behaviors that match back to our values. Yeah, it takes a lot of reflection and a lot of thinking and you got to be pretty honest in terms of how landed on a behavioral type value you are or whether there's a little bit of drift and a little bit of license. I think it's completely not a utterly fascinating. A couple of minutes ago, you said one of our favorite words and I heard the word systems in like the first eight minutes of our chat. So we're doing good. We're doing good. You were very determined to build out systems from day one. What was that about? Yeah, again, I think it was a little bit self-serving in that like I'm doing this partly as a business that's going to work for my family. And to be able to work part time, I have to have the therapist be able to be relatively independent on my gaze off. And I don't want to be able to take the phone call because actually if you ring me during that time, the rest of my day, a disaster. I'm not answering the phone and you have to wait for those two hours or whatever. So it was a little bit self-serving in that way and and a little bit of you know, I've been in larger organizations where there were lots of systems for how you do literally how you take the keys off the wall to get the fleet car. And so it's finding that balance between you know what's. what's practical and workable, but also in repeatable and like getting that, I value doing X, I want to be the most excellent service in the niche area that we work in. And so to do that, we need to have the systems implemented. So, some people really, really have a systems brain, and they can think beyond the systems being in a PDF somewhere on a share drive, and they're really committed to making them systems really functional, and just, this is how we do things here. And other people really aspire to being like that, but they're actually, they don't have that systems brain. And that's, that's okay. What's important is about knowing whether you've got the systems brain or not, and it's something to be said for the director not being involved in the systems as a role. You've got the systems DNA? Maybe, I had a really hard time writing things down. A lot of it sit in my brain. Yes, and I'm actually thankful that I am discovering AI to support me with that, because I can easily figure that out in the way that I talk about things, and that it can get documented and actually get like ticked off, and have some of those systems for like, you know, reviewing it and things like that, because I think that was part of my initially, maybe where I didn't write a lot of stuff down, because I was like, but it might change. And then I'll have to review that if I write it down, whereas if it just, my brain had turned half to review, and have it out of, we won't have it out of date document. I just won't have the document. But it will be in my front row. It'll be my grade. That will be fine. Yeah. But as the team grows right, you get more questions, and you probably find yourself repeating yourself a little bit more often. And so it's got to fall out of your head at some point so that others don't have to keep asking you. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think that's, I've been quite the systems I've got have probably come out of necessity. Like it's one step at a time. Okay, this is the next most important one for us. I certainly don't have everything systemized, but okay, we're now at this stage. So it would be really good to know that's like continuous improvement in your cycle. Your business has supported you through maternity leave. How did that go? Well, I am really happy with how it went. I'm really happy with how it went. Yeah, I had done a bit of planning and a little bit of good planning and a little bit of good luck. Like I'll be honest, the therapist that was taking over for me was a known piece of gold. And she was somebody that I'd worked with before. And I was able to sort of bring her in and really have a planned hand over about how that would all work and how the business would keep going. And we've actually typed in maternity leave. Then I came back and she and had her baby. So it all kind of just the stars aligned for that for me. But it was something I was a bit nervous about in leaving the big non-for-profit right where the absolutely the job would let me go maternity leave to them be starting up a business and knowing that more babies was in my hope. I was hoping that there was more babies in my future. Well, and now the baby. So it was again, it's something that I thought a lot about. And you very successfully have baby proofed. Yeah, yeah. And that's not happening again. But you might be a teen. So there's a different level of baby proofing. Yeah. Yeah. I found over the while with the businesses we've supported is the work to baby proof a business is the really, really important work that the director should be doing regardless of whether they will be there or not. The baby proofing work is about getting the director out of operations, out of appropriate decisions, out of all sorts of kind of lower level. Oh, that's not that's an awkward word such that they've really got oversight and key decisions and governance and things like that. So it's a mighty fine piece of work and you've been able to build that in sooner rather than later into a into your business. Well, and I can imagine it was easier to build in early before it was very small too many things. It's still an ongoing process as things change we need to keep working on that to holiday proof it now. Not baby proof it. Yeah. Yeah. How about the same principles? Yeah. Some principles. So you're four years into the business. What have you loved about the the adventure so far? Oh, great question. I have enjoyed more than I thought the flexibility and not in terms of like yes, I have great flexibility to take off my sports day next week. But actually the flexibility in running the service, how I want to run the service and being able to be like responsive to families, responsive to evidence and literature that I'm learning that I'm doing and going, yeah, that actually is something that would really benefit these people and be able to kind of put that in the ground. And I'm excited for the next kind of chapter of like giving back to the community of the disability community and the OT community in that the businesses kind of allow me to do that and not just the couple. Yeah. Yeah. It's got a good amount of autonomy already such that you can do some other leadership and community development activities. I guess. Yeah. So what she did differently. That's a great question. I think I make so many changes that I go. It's probably a hard question. I don't have any major light bulb moments of like yeah, that was cut of water. Should it cut of water? Sometimes I know in my personality, I'm a little bit risk of verse and a little bit like that's probably I wish I did it sooner to be honest. Since a bit too big of a risk to take and I probably could have done it three years earlier, but I didn't. You know, you make the best decisions you possibly can with what you know at the time and feel at the time. Yeah. One of your really smart decisions of which there are many, but one that I think is definitely need to light up a bit here is that you have set out to build diverse, autocrate, diverse revenue streams from the get go. And people who listen to all really, really want to hear about about this. So tell us about where your revenue comes from and why you've kind of structured it like this right from start up. Yeah, so we are lucky. Maybe that's you're telling me that strategic strategic in that we absolutely serve a large portion of NDIS clients. Children and families, we have some private and Medicare clients, but then we have this supervision and training sort of arm of the business as well. And I've actually just returned this morning from doing a niskeew assessment. So that's the injury insurance scheme in with it plan as well. So we dabble in lots of pies, which has needed lots of different systems probably as we've explained and into all of those. But really, they all still have that common thread of complex disability work, even though maybe not so much the private is probably a little bit more just general pediatric OT work, but everything else has kind of come from staying true to that nature of like the supervision, group and individual and assistive technology. I've been doing a little bit of training and webinars through BeboT and some other conferences and things. So that has all been leveraging my happy place working with the children with complex bodies and complex families and just being able to do it. It sounds strategic because there's a diverse range of things, but actually it's like this is interesting and I'm good at this and I enjoy this work. Let's help other people who might want to be good at this and enjoy this work and be able to do that too. Strategic and passionate can, you know, they can cohabitate. Yeah. Tell us a bit about the clinical supervision because you've been quietly beating this drum for a long time now. What does that look like in the business? And from memory, I don't think it's only you, right? You've got some team that also step up to contribute here. Absolutely. So yeah, Casey and I both do the clinical supervision within the team and we really support people across the broad spectrum of pediatric occupational therapy work, but particularly those working with complex disability and equipment prescription. That's an area we've had a lot of expertise in and I guess for me it started as in that large non-for-profit, which was quite niche in its service area of doing complex equipment that I was really lucky to be able to have seniors who knew this stuff and knew it really well that I could call one and I noticed when NDS rolled out and that that business like nearly every other one, broadened their clients that they worked with and we all kind of became pediatric generalists. And what I noticed was lost as those seniors retired is that then nobody had that good specific knowledge of applying the OT process to that client group or that intervention and so the supervision kind of came out of people asking me these questions anyway. I was doing a bit of it for free and a little bit of it because I was, I think, a rising tide lifts all boats. But then it was like, okay, let's formalize this and really be able to support people who are being asked to do that generalist work to feel really confident that they could apply their OT process and their knowledge to that more niche scope of practice phase. All right, folks, let's break up this rubning combo and let me share something really special with you. And Nick, you're consulting. We can unlock the treasures to Allied Health Business success with our engaging online masterclasses, immerse into practical strategies and inspiring success stories from fellow live attendees, from NDIS support to Dream Team recruitment, service delivery enhancement, to boosting profitability. Our masterclasses cover all the essentials for running a thriving Allied Health Business. They are fun and practical. Plus, it's a great place to mingle with other Allied Health Business owners just like you. Visit our website at naker.com.au to find out more about our next online masterclass. Plus, you can purchase some of our previous hot topic masterclasses. Now, let's dive back into the real action. Stay tuned and check out our show notes for all the great links. A hundred years ago, when I was a clinical IT, I would have laughed group supervision. And when I had my clinical business, I created a bit of this as well. We had a clinical component to all of our team meetings. We also invited guest speakers and pediatricians and different specialists around the place. And I just invited anybody, any therapist in the area that I wanted to come along. And I remember paying one of the pediatricians one night in literally a block of chocolate because she said, "I'll just block a chocolate and be fine." So that's what I got. What I would have loved about group supervision is the challenge. This is the conversational nature of it and appreciating and learning alongside how others view things differently and think about things differently and make different decisions. That would have completely and utterly fascinated me. So I'm a huge fan of group clinical conversations. Not that you're the smartest or the least smart in the room, it's that process-based learning that I'm reconciling the LLT professionals' driving. Yeah, and I think almost part of what we do in the group space is just the facilitator of getting together and saying, "This is the day we're doing it. This is the time we're doing it. Here's the group. Here's the Zoom link. Come on in and share what you're learning and let's all learn from each other and better the practice for everybody as we go." I bet you learn just as much as everybody else, but probably a little bit different, some other different stuff as well. Yeah, absolutely. I really am enjoying the reflection that I get out of it in that learning from others and thinking on, and it's not just what happens in the session, right? It's like, you'll then go on thinking about how that person spoke about their case and how they approached it and then that something similar might come up for you and you can kind of keep that going. So, yeah, the group supervision is fun. Yeah, it is. And learning should be fun, but there are just so many ways to learn. And what I really like about DS is that you're challenging the concept of, "I'm going to do air quotes, traditional clinical supervision, and really bringing it into something more adult learning based and contemporary and conversational." Yeah. And on that sort of challenging, like, the different ways to learn, the other thing we've just sort of formalized out of, we were really doing it within what we called one-on-one supervision, and then putting it out there with our co-consult idea. So, particularly for some of the therapists, we support in like, more regional places, where they are the only OT in town, seeing that kid. So, they actually don't have that opportunity to refer on to someone who might have scripting a complex wheelchair or a sleep system within their scope, that we've been able to come in and support as a second pair of eyes in the assessment with their client on the ground. Which has been also differently rewarding, and just that idea of like meeting different people's learning needs. That really works for some, and others go, "No, that wouldn't work for me. I would much rather talk about it in that group situation," or one-on-one. Yeah. You mentioned you're doing some other speaking around the place. I think we should give a shout out to Rebecca and her pediatric OT conference. Yeah, I'll leave you the speak into that, and we can provide the link as well, because we're excited for how that lands. Yeah, I'm so excited for Pocca. I probably, I would not say I'm a speaker, but I am excited to, like, as soon as Rebecca approached me about this, saying, you know, what we're building here is something that's about real-world practice, and it's not a research conference. I was like, "Yes, that is absolutely needed, and whether you're having me there as a speaker or not, I'm on board. I'm coming because I think there's a real place for that, and I'm really excited to learn about everybody." So yeah, I'm talking a little bit about the equipment description process, but I'm also really excited to learn from the breadth of amazing OT's. She's got lined up. Sounds like a speaker to me. Hi, this is practice, Kathy. Oh, just with those pea plates off. Elplights, I think. Oh, no, no, no, no. Definitely, Greenpeace. Oh, if not, they're all gone. They're all gone. So yeah, we'll put the link to that in Rebecca was on the podcast. I'm a couple of weeks ago, but yeah, really important to get behind these initiatives. Baradios. So we are in the middle of 2026. Now, learning all the cats out of the bag. Where's business going in the next six or 12 months? Oh, great question. We were, I think at the start of the conversation, you mentioned intentional a few times, and I was quite, been quite intentional with my growth. And you might see that as slow. But I've been quite like, you know, no, I want this business to allow me to have maternity leave and do exercise it and to do that within the hours that I've got until allow me to wear all my other hats. I've been quite strategic in about when we do and don't grow. So we're going through a little growth phase at the moment. Thanks to some more babies joining the Kids and Co-Lib family. And that's allowed just a room for some new faces to join the team. So that's kind of a focus in the next six months. And then really like locking in and consolidating those other revenue streams. Obviously, the, don't mention the thriving kids kids kids. No, I'm going to ask you about it. He's coming and it's absolutely a my radar. But at the moment, personally, I am working on holding ambiguity because that is not a strength of mine. And it's certainly something that's been challenging me in my role as director of Kids and Co-Lab in the current systems environment that we're, you know, that we're funding system. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's driving kids is absolutely on the radar. But at this point in Queensland, we still have very little. How exciting. Queen's then still has unsigned. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I'm looking to part of, you know, it's been on my way to set from day one. I want kids to outgrow my service. So and families to outgrow my service. And so that idea, like for that to be achievable, it's not just about building their capacities, but building all of the systems and people around them's capacity. So I think the theory behind thriving kids isn't bad. But the implementation and, you know, I'm lucky enough to have worked in the pre-NDoS space. Yeah. Like was this on Twinkos was actually the last rollout stage of the NDoS? So we had block funding for a very long time. So sort of I've done a fair bit of work in that space, but yeah, where this is all going, I think I'm most nervous about the teething phase in between. Yeah, and that could do on for years, couldn't that? I've got a toddler doing tantrums at me all day. In my mum role at the moment, I think that's kind of the next. We're going to go back to an infant of a new system of thriving kids and have to roll through the babies that are needing lots of attention all the time. And then the toddler tantrums and then hopefully eventually we'll get a little bit more groove. Yeah, a little bit more maturity on it. I'm thinking that your clients and that cohort that you serve are the most likely to stay engaged and on the NDoS. But that doesn't mean that their plans are going to be generous. It's still going to take some really smart, clinical thinking and service planning to serve the little ones that stay on there. Absolutely. And I think case management, one thing that I think we lost a bit of, but I kind of tried to hold on to as the NDOs rolled out was that, knowing who did what really well. So we did go really siloed. And I think as plan shrink and my complex kids, yes, they're going to stay with the NDoS. But they're also going to be expected at some level to interface with whatever the thriving kids' foundational supports are that are there as well. So being able to help families navigate that, it's going to be a little more mental load for the team. And I'm planning for us to be able to really stay connected with the other services and whatever thriving kids' roles are. Because I think if we try, that will be a string. Yeah. Yeah, is to be that go-to agency that's a great partner, a great team member around the child connected with all of the other agencies as and when required smart move. Co-lobs in our name for a reason. I don't know if you knew that, but it is that's collaborative practice. It's the third value we haven't really talked about, but absolutely we stay in touch with all the people around. Yeah, so if you were designing thriving kids, what would you want to achieve in this next 12 months? 12 months is not long. It's not October, like, what do you reckon would be a great start? I think if I go, can I go the other way? Can I go really long? I would love the systems to be able to better support inclusion and not just schools and kindi, like that should be bare minimum baseline easy peasy stuff. It should be law. Yeah, it should be easier for people to access, but I would love the coffee shop and the swimming lessons and all of those places do that really proper inclusion stuff better. And we do have a little bit of devil in that space where we can, but I would love to see thriving kids really level butt up in Australia because then I do think we would need less one-on-one's your part. Yeah, universal design piece. And I'm a big fan of coaching approaches, OPC, I've done my OPC training and a B.C. FAN of OPC as a coaching. So I really think that that is where thriving kids is going to go in that one-on-one or should go in that intensive the port's phase of the pointy end of the thriving kids bit because that will deliver the outcomes with the smaller budget. Yeah, yeah, well, has the potential to it depends a bit how diluted this this idea of parent coaching becomes and what are the more rigorous models that yeah, yeah, and it's really like actually, I'm actually watching films coaching because that is a really rigorous. She's got the fidelity measure there for all that stuff. Whereas yeah coaching line, but also we know that that's not that approach doesn't work for all families. From the now I tell the business point of view, do you see opportunity in these next few years? Yeah, we do. I do. I think like there's lots of opportunity in a new system to be able to do things differently and meet the needs of I'm hoping that there will be some local community flavor to some of what happens with thriving kids. And that there'll be opportunity there for businesses. Yeah, yeah, right. So kids in colab five years time, cast of thousands, global, global. No, I'm not that doesn't really interest me. I mean, never say never, but I would love us to be doing supporting really great service for kids with complex disability as number one. And that could be through one on one work can be through our supervision work. You know, the webinars that we're doing all of that sort of stuff. But then also supporting them to be more included in their community because you know, that is the other part of what I want to do. And so that's where I see the opportunity with hopefully thriving kids and just looking forward in the NDIS space as well in the disability space. And even thinking outside of that, like looking more globally, the continues to be momentum in all people having value in the world as a concept. And so I'm hopeful that we can have a small part in that. And that can be achieved with a small but mighty business. You don't need a cast of thousands to make a local or a state or a national or a global impact for that matter. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, part of how we will do that really well is by looking after the team that we've got. And so if break is happening, it's happening very intentionally at the night time for the right reasons. Yeah. All right. Let's kick the ball. Tennis down the track and you're looking back. What are you going to be most proud of? Oh, that's a great question. I'm hoping that I'll be able to say we were really true to our values. Yeah, that we really did support families by meeting them where they were at to support their children support communities by meeting them where they were at to support their children. And to be able to say we've had that little ripple, not just in the local communities, but within our health space and what that looks like. But I see how I'm going to get there, but tennis feels like a long time at the moment, doesn't it? It does. Just so much ahead in the next kind of one to two that 10 sort of feels. It's unachievable, but we do want to kind of show our dreams because of the current state of the nation. I don't think. Absolutely. Yeah. You've got the last couple of minutes to wrap it on about what that you like. Oh, I don't know what I want to wrap it on about this feels a bit like full circle coming on. I've been listening to the podcast since I first took the leadership role in the large number of profit. I didn't say. I either go that was but that I went searching for like, I mean, oh my gosh, I'm not a clinician anymore. I'm a, I'm, I have to do this leadership work and who's talking about leadership in our health and I find found this podcast. I'm not sure if you're a tree. It's name. Many, many, many years ago, like probably 10 years ago, at least, I think I don't know how long you've been doing it, but. Maybe not quite, but we're well over 400 episodes. So yeah, that's a few years, isn't that. I think I was into a million of them. Yeah. And so I don't know what to say. I know you always give people the last talking moment, but I guess I want to take you. Welcome. Yeah. Yeah. I think if they think you for the, you know, Ripples, you've had across the Allied Health Business community and so lots of fellow business owners have listened and, you know, learnt from you and all of the other generous guests that have been on over the years. So yeah, I think you think you think you think you very kind words for a card words. Anything you like business owners to be thinking about as you are head off into your afternoon. Look after yourselves. You can't look after your people and the people that you want to support if you're not looking after yourself. So I think that's something that I'm working on hand with the right people and the right sort of supports around me, but it's definitely a work in progress for me. So I'm guessing that there are others out there who might benefit from that reminder. Yeah. That's a great way to in. And Kate, thank you so much. Like a pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. 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