Slurping Oysters and Swinging Big: a convo w/ Haus of Shmizzay

Hi everyone, welcome to Thrilled to Announce. We are so thrilled and so pumped to share our gorgeous Convo with James, aka House of Shmizae on Instagram. We connected close to a year ago and then we met IRL this past fall. We've wanted to have them on the pod for a long time and we're so excited that we finally made it happen. For those few of you who may not know James, they have blown up over the past year because of their frank discussion of vocal technique and other issues in the opera industry. They are a voice teacher, a cultural critic, the Joan Rivers of Opera Discourse. They have an interesting way of blending technical discussion and social critiques at the industry and humor in their posts. We had a blast chit chatting about the role of the critic, the radical act of enjoying your own singing, swinging big, taking risks, honing your aesthetic ear, honing your moral compass, working against the assumption that the singer is a perpetual student and of course the sopranos. We hope you enjoy. Love you lots, sit back, relax and enjoy the show. That being holding it up. Ungrateful heart. Okay, so you were out this weekend. Did you have some oysters? I saw an oyster situation. Well, on Friday, I was the wind blue when I knew it was time for a lobster dinner. For appetizers, but then like look up at the board and you see the pound and a half lobster there and you just like, you need another. I actually had oysters rock a feller instead of raw. I'm normally an all raw shellfish kind of girl, but I am. Smoked oysters do hit sometimes, I will say. Love you're going to have to give me like oyster racks. I can never find good ones that I want like mid-winter. Well, there's a really good actually right by in Murray Hill. There's a here's box oyster bar, which is great and they have about 50 for oysters, clams, oysters and two types of clams. And then there's this other place that just opened called Ostrica down. I think it's on like 29th and 2nd and it's kind of like it's not like a full kitchen, but it's like all out in front of you and it's all very fresh like seafood to the show. Yeah, it's like all I want. No, and it is so now the only downside is is I don't think they have their liquor license, so they only have T-Mex cocktails and wine and I just it's blasphemy for meeting it. Yeah, I need a dirty martini, exactly, exactly. Yes, exactly. Filth on filth on filth. That is like not on our convo topics, but I had to get into oysters for like a moment while I had you. The shellfish always have a place in the convo. So we're going to get into a few topics today. I'm trying to think of like where exactly to start. I guess like the first and most important question is like, what do you think of Rachel Willis-Sorrenson? Perry has some thoughts. Yeah, I'm going to have to ask her to. Yeah, backtracking a little bit. I'll look through it. I think the thing that really excited me the most was this like informed critic energy. And I think one of the coolest things about something like that is how they can like you kind of teach us about ourselves, like how we react to you and how we react to your opinions. Kind of like gets us to figure out how we actually feel, which is a much harder thing than like, I don't know, especially right now when so much of the critique that's out there is really, really neutral. It can be really difficult to kind of parse out your own opinions about things. And I feel like it might be a little frustrating and tiring for you to kind of respond to those people sort of working out how they feel and sort of taking you coming at you with a sort of aggression. I don't want to put words in their mouths or emotions in their mouths, but it's interesting to see how people react to you. And really, I think they're reacting to themselves. You know what I mean? Yes, I mean, the, you know, I certainly like, I go in and out of I feel like objective, academic, critical discussions and like personal, slightly shadier critiques, usually related to how many martinis I had a happy hour. But, you know, I mean, first of all, the thing that I think that a lot of people don't realize is like, you know, at the end of the day, like when I was starting up, you know, this, whatever this is, if it's not controversial, it's not going to sell, right? Like you have to like have a certain level of like people, you know, disliking what you do and saying things that might be somewhat inflammatory or incendiary or like worded in a way that is like purposely like going to target those things because the engagement's just better. And like, I'm running a business. I want my high rise, like, you know, that is part of it. But on, on the, besides the engagement level, look, I've just got to be on social media and like get people to pay attention to what I'm saying, there is, you know, this, this account that I follow that has been enormously enlightening to me pedagogically and aesthetically. Tenerino Medici, which I'm sure a lot of people follow. He gave this talk basically about criticism in the arts and, you know, why it's important blah, blah, blah. And one of the most important things that I think he said was, in this will stick with me forever, he said, essentially the, our criticism will be as excoriating as the system in which it is responding to. And that is, that was like, something I feel like I was feeling and doing. But like, that was like a light bulb moment for me, where it's like, of course, it's going to be, I'm going to respond to this singing and, and this system, just as harshly as they respond to, as they feel entitled to respond to us in audition rooms and feedback sessions in these programs. Like, and I'm, I am not even coming close to some of the things that they, they feel comfortable reading us on of like your fat, your ugly, your to this, your to gay, your to this, you know, your voice is horrible, you have a wobble, you're out of tune. Like, they will just go on and on and on. And it's like, well, of course we can say that. We're the, we're helping you. But the second that somebody on that outside starts talking about, you know, the greatest singers of today with a critical ear that has, and again, having nothing to do with like, how they look or their bodies or their sexualities or whatever, just making like, hey, listen to this vibrato, listen to that vibrato. Can you hear a difference? Listen to this note, listen to that note. Um, you know, and saying one is better than the other for the purpose of theatrical singing, then it becomes this like, well, you're just negative and trying to tear people down and whatever. And, and you know, something that that comes up a lot is like, how, how do you expect, you know, if this critique is so harsh, you know, you're so harsh, what, um, what are people supposed to get out of it? Do you expect it? And it's like, I am not making these critiques in order for these singers able to see it. I don't want them to see it, right? A lot of the singers that I really go in, I'm like, I block them because I don't want, yeah, it's not about them. It's not about, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's not about them fixing their own singing. It's about people who are coming up, learning about what aesthetics and what options are out there, because we are so monolithic, basically, in our approach to vocal aesthetics and the local pedagogy in opera across the world. I mean, everybody in every country says, oh, it's better in Germany and the Germans say, oh, it's better in Italy and the Italian say, oh, it's better in America. You know, when everybody's just kind of chasing this thing that's not there, you know, and, and that's the thing is it's, it's to educate people. It's not to fix their singing, it's not to make them feel bad. It's to get people to listen critically and start to be like, oh, I can hear that difference. I can make that distinction. What do I actually prefer? I also think it's such a fundamental misunderstanding of your project to even compare the way that yaps talk to singers and the way that you're talking about your art form, because I like the way that you critique is, although it's negative in some respects, it's actually quite generative and creative and positive, because you have a very clear vision for the way you like things to be. In your specific niche, you have a sound that you like. You have something that you're working towards. It's not just the negative of I don't like this. I don't like these singers. It's what I do like, and this is the steps one could take to get there if they're interesting, which is so much more, I don't even want to say useful, because I think all critique is necessary, especially in an industry as fucked as this one. But it's people momentum in a way that explicitly negative critique doesn't, you know what I mean? To say I like this, instead to point them in a direction of this is what things could be, is more exciting, more liberating in a lot of ways, which is something about you that I've always really respected. Oh, well, so sweet. Thank you. You know, and I agree, you know, somebody. had asked, you know, I, I, uh, right before this, I, I took a few more anonymous questions, um, which very quickly degraded. And what do you think of Jonathan Taylor? And what do you think of Yoder McChalla? Just like Jesus people. Um, anyway, uh, one of them was like, you know, why do all this when so much has changed in the last 50 years? I'm like, because we're still here, we can change. We are actively creating change. We are like, we're not stuck in this movement. They say everything's changed in the last 50 years. Well, I am, I'm trying to influence how it's gonna change over the next 50. Right. You know, I'm not content to say, oh, well, this is how so and so said it's done. It's like, we have a lot of us, I mean, we've studied this for a decade or longer. We've listened to it for a decade or longer. Like the whole culture of, of the perpetual student today makes people think that we're, we don't, we don't really get to say how this goes. We just, the Maestro tells us how to sing. The coach tells us how to sing and we just do it and we execute it and hopefully we're good. It's like, I don't, I don't care about that. It's like, I want to have a say aesthetically, broadly, um, over time. Yeah. I think that's one of the more intense parts of the experience of reading your critiques for people is that we have basically had it beaten out of us that like our opinion is just not an educated one. And it's like not a valid one. And I think that's one of the biggest projections that people put onto your critique is like, what makes you think you know better? Like what makes you think that this is true? And I find that it's, it's fascinating that you just literally have to explain the archetype of a critic to this mass audience. It's like you have a project that's twofold. You're critiquing the aesthetics of opera singing as it stands right now, technically and artistically. And you were kind of teaching a generation that like what a critic is in the opera work in our community. Like you were trying to explain through this project like what a critic is. And one of my biggest examples of this that I noticed with you is when someone was like, I really want to take a lesson with you. But I'm really afraid you're going to be like, really mean to me. And that's like not what this is like in you. They're pretty like people are paid huge amounts of money to sing at the Met and they're defining the culture of this. And I'm going to critique their singing because that's a part of me standing behind this art form. But I'm not going to like be mean to you during a lesson. So I find you have to like parse that so often, which I find fascinating. I'm sure it's very tiring, but important, you know. Well, I sympathize. I do because most people, so many people that come into a lesson with me, like the most, I'm just like you have been hurt by a lot of people. And when they see how I talk about singers on, you know, at the Met or at Lustcala or whatever, they I think are reminded of how brutally somebody may have spoken to them in a lesson setting. And for me, in a lesson setting, we're able you are handing me money to help you. So like it is not in my interest or your interest ethically or practically for me to just berate you. It does nothing. You know, I understand, though, why people would be hesitant about like, oh God, if they, you know, say that about Nadine Sierra, like I just got out of undergrad and like I don't sing as well as her. So they're going to be so horrible. And it's like, I get it. It's really, I do sympathize. And like it's just part of like what I've, it's, it's kind of what I've created for myself. And I don't, I own that. But the, what, you know, how I sleep at night is like, I know that the singers that I have had come into the studio and that have worked with me long term or even short term are consistently telling me like this is like the nicest, most productive, least stressful voice lesson I've ever had. And I, you know, I think I do think that like the technical things that I talk about are not, I'm not the only one talking about them, right? Like it's some minority, but I'm certainly not the only person on earth teaching well, but I think I do think a big difference is the energy in the room, how I go about helping people fix problems, quote unquote. And, and also like I know a lot, you know, a big part of the work that that you do psychologically is getting people to understand that it doesn't matter what a, a critic might say about you, right? Like you have your circle of people that you listen to. And there is the peanut gallery. And like I tell people, I was like the, we, we regard call us, for example, as the greatest singer I ever lived, right? And that is true. But, you know, during a career, people, people were constantly saying she was awful. God awful. Critics were saying she was God fucking awful. It's like half the same obsessed with her, like that's like why I'm obsessed. And that's the thing is like you've got to realize it does not matter how you're singing lands with people. The ones that are for you are for you and the ones that don't like you don't like you and it is not your job to convince anyone otherwise. It's your job to look inwards and give outwards, right? And just do your thing, be yourself and be bold. Don't try to be, you know, just cookie cutter because the people that are going to love you are going to love you, you know, and when you have that, it doesn't matter. You know, somebody says, oh, so and so, you know, their chest voice was tacky or they're high notes or whatever, their bottle attacks were awful. It's like that, you know, you have the confidence because you know what you're doing. You feel good about what you're doing. There's no ambiguity in your relationship emotionally to what you're doing. So it's like you read that and you're like, okay, you know, it's not, it's not something like, oh my god. So yeah, I think I think it's, it's definitely a consequence of just the way that I do talk about singing in public and a lot of, you know, I can't say, I know for a fact I've never been cool to somebody in a voice lesson ever. And I'm not even like, people are often like, you know, can you be a little harder? I mean, I was like, I really don't think that's kind of, it's not productive for me to sit there and be like, you're flat, you're flat, you're flat, you have a wobble because what does somebody start doing when they hear you're flat? In fact, almost every technical problem that like somebody comes in with is the result of somebody naming over and over again. And then they start going, I'm flat. So, you know, and it's just, you don't even say it to somebody when I was a junior in college, I sang Don Cortillo and not say, and the review was, James Smith was a quiet tenor who could barely be heard over the orchestra or something like that. And that for years gave me a, I pushed like fucking crazy because of that one review where I was like, no, I've had the same thing. I did an orfeo, which is like literally basically a 90 minute one woman show with like a couple other people. Yeah. And my review was, I couldn't really hear parody Christina, the orfeo. And I was like, oh, fuck my fucking life. Yeah, like, I'm never going to forget it. I never forget how that makes me feel. Oh, yeah. I can't wait one day to find a print version of that article and frame it, hang it up above, hang it above my studio grand, that will be a full circle moment for sure. I feel like that's actually such a part of what you do is like making these, you know, objective statements about technique, like morally neutral. I feel like there's for so long, we've had this like era of teaching where like your teachers, like your therapist and like your best friend and like kind of like a yes man and like making you feel better no matter what. And it's like how productive is this lesson? They're just like telling you like, that sounds good enough, whatever, it's not really effective teaching. But in my experience, I haven't really fully flushed this theory out. So I might cut this out. But in my experience, working with someone who's so obsessed with the technical is inherently morally neutral. And I don't judge myself for like, oh, did I like sound good? And like my voice is me. And like, I'm really concerned with like, you know, other people's opinions. It's like we're just working on work. It's what it is. We're just learning how to sing. And it's like you have to get so emotional about everybody else's reactions because I am building the self-esteem of my own technique and instrument. And like, so what do you do to actually be such a kindness to singers to be like, let's just work on our craft? Like, it's not like a teacher that's just like kind of shitty and just being like, you sound great. Like, good job. See you next week. Like, it's such a different approach. I think a lot of teachers kind of have one of two reactions where it's like, I think in and it's often related to their own lack of understanding of how to help people. So they either blame the student of, you know, I've got students that have just, I mean, the things that teachers will say to them to defend their own inability to help them. You know, you have a learning disability or tone deaf. You are this. You are that. Like, you have physical problems, go to the doctor, go to an auntie because they keep trying, you know, saying the same thing over and over and they don't have the tools to help them. So they project on the student or they just do this kind of wish-washing. You're okay. Yeah. Great. Good. Right. Right. And and something singers will do all the time and lessons with me that I, I really try and encourage them to stop conceiving and singing in this way. It's like, they'll, I'll say, try this and they'll do something. They'll say, was that right? And I'm like, there is no right, right? You tell me what it didn't feel like. Did you notice anything? You know, what, was that okay? There's no okay, right? It's like, you have to start to develop this perspective of like, how did that feel to me? Did I lie? like that, did I have a, you know, if you did have it, you know, I spent a lot of time, you know, because I'm definitely a firm believer that voice teachers are not therapists, like you need to have, if you need it, an actual mental health professional. But, but there is, I mean, singing is psychological, right? So you cannot, you cannot teach without addressing the psychology of it. And not in like a, so what did your mother do when you were five years old, kind of like? - Right, right, right. - What is your emotional response to this sound? - What's coming up right now, yeah. - Exactly, like, how are you emotionally reacting to the sound you just made? And a lot of times what comes up is like, I'm afraid of that, I feel like that's wrong. I know if I sang that in front of another coach, they'd be like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, so they have these, these fearful reactions, and it's important to take time to like reassure like, you don't have to sing for that, you know what I'm saying? Like to kind of, to spend time in that, and the psychological reality of the sounds we make because it is so emotional, you know, that we have such a strong reaction to the sounds that come out of us that like, you've definitely got to make space for that, you know. - Oh, you've got, like, how do you go about creating this environment in your studio? Like, what's like, how has your philosophy evolved? Like, has it been a lot of like trial and error or observing, talking, do you talk to other teachers or it's mostly through your students who you're kind of working through or being the other teaching from, and you're like, oh, I don't like that vibe. - Yeah, I mean, like, I was really lucky like before, I, before like my studio came into fruition basically, like my, you know, I was teaching like a dozen some singers here and there over the last couple of years, you know, they would come and sing for me and whatever, but, you know, before that, I had my partner and my best friend, Bryce and Gretchen actually both asked, like, I had dropped the hint, like, oh, you should, you know, we should, I have a lesson with me sometime to see how it is. - And eventually both of them came and said, hey, you know what, I'd actually like to try working with you and obviously like, there's, you know, you're bringing in probably the two closest relationships in my life, like my closest friend and my partner. So that's like, there's a large emotional stakes in that situation, right? And I learned, I taught them both very regularly and still teach them for, you know, basically, two and a half or three years now or something like that. So I had an opportunity to learn from how to teach, you know, with two people who were very close to me and could give me very honest feedback about like how what I said made them feel. And, you know, I listened back to the lessons I was teaching them two and a half or three years ago and I was like, oh my god, James, what do you say? - Do you listen to your lessons a lot? - Not me more, I mean, there's just two, you know, back when it was just them and I was learning, yes, I would, you know, I would listen and I would listen back. I'd be like, what worked, what didn't work, what was the tone of the room, like, you know, so at that time, yes, now it's just, it's too many to, you know, record lessons and listen back to people. But yes, I used to do that a lot to analyze my own, 'cause, you know, you hear something in the room and like, you know, there's kind of like the master class of effective, like you can say anything and somebody tries it again and it's just probably gonna be better this second time. Yeah, so I just listening critically to be like, okay, what is actually consistently working? What is not, you know, but anyway, I had that opportunity to work with them long-term before I really ended up kind of getting in front of a lot, a lot of people and I've basically, you know, I teach like essentially the same first lesson to everybody, you know, I go over the same basics with everyone, it's just like, and it's like, you know, for a first lesson, for example, it's like, you know, we'll go up and down the scale, just like I'd hear you, I'll hear a little bit of repertoire and then we'll get into technical work. And I, and it's like the same thing with everybody, whether they are like a super advanced singer at like a major house singing roles or like an undergrad that's like my teacher is not helping me, like I, this is not working for me, like it's the same principles for everybody, right? It doesn't change, you know, obviously the level at which you can work changes, but like it's so much more simple than I think people make it out to be. And all you have to do, you know, it over the course of time, but also one of the first lessons is creating an environment of like, hey, this is not, you don't have to impress me, like, you know, I can tell when a singer comes in and they're like, you know, they start singing in their immediate, like, oh, that was bad, that was wrong, and I'm like, hey, like, look, it's fine, chill, you know, and just trying as much as I can to get them to realize, like it's like, you don't, I'm not here to judge you, I'm here to help you, you know, and you don't need to impress me, you don't, you know, I know you've had your lessons, I know you want to sing a certain way, but it's just like, you don't need to break that, 'cause that energy ultimately is not that, that I know I did it wrong, I know that wasn't right, you know, it's not, it's not gonna help you, right? - You carry that with you everywhere, you know, like I go into an audition, and I'm like, wait, no, but like I can't-- - It's how you talk to yourself, yeah, yeah, it becomes your inner voice. - Yep, so like-- - I love that you're just trying to neutralize that, like it's just about the work, let's just like work, and not, you know, like almost like I'm gonna move some of those, yeah. - That's what I tell people, I'm like the worst thing that can happen is you sound bad, so what, we're here, you sounded like you're screaming to death, like what you're not gonna hemorrhage, you're not gonna get a note, like swing big once or twice, and see where it lands you, you know? - Absolutely, yeah, like when I teach, like kind of like indie singer songwriters in the Brooklyn area, it's like really fun. - Of course you do, I'm obsessed, I love it. - So I've had a few sings some like early, little Italian songs for funsies, but it's mostly just like they want a bigger range, and they have a very tall and right now, and I'm like I can touch on this, like I can work on this, but that's always like, I'm shocked by my reaction as a teacher at like how emotional and excited I get when they make an ugly sound because they tried something, I'm like oh my god, like you have never sounded like that, and I don't care like how it's gonna become useful or not, I'm just like you allowed yourself to make a noise, that you were not even sure you were capable of allowing yourself to make, that is where the work starts, and I'm just like fuck, yes, like do that shit again, like that's what's up, like that's what we're trying to get done here, you know? - That is such a critically important culture to facilitate in the studio of like I want you to swing so big that like you go for the high note, and it's like literally, and when people do, and when people crack, or if they, you know, make just like a, you know, vulgar sound, or whatever, I'm like great, great, because I know when you made that sound, you let go of all that, you know, - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's like, because that's where I start with people in lessons all the way, you know, is speaking, because so in our Anglo-Saxon, Saxon-Americanized, like, understanding of the English language, most of us who come from that background, like, you know, we're, you know, I try to get people to like, call, like if you were to, I always use the image of like, you know, if somebody was across the street, and you saw a piano, it was about to fall in your head, like, you know, yeah, I'm just like, and people have trouble even bringing that up in themselves, or like, to whale like a baby, I'll do that. (screams) And just throw my voice on it, and people will look at me like, - Yeah, even speaking, people have a really hard time with that. I've noticed that. - Yeah. - That's definitely been my sensation of figuring out higher chest, is being afraid to make, you know, these sound like on an F-sharp, like, I'm not making a pretty sound on an F-sharp, a G, but that's the feeling of trying to get there to begin with, is like, more important than the beauty of the sound, at least like what I am. - Yes. - The only way out is through, you have to make those sounds to get to the other side. Sorry. - Exactly. - Like, you just have to. - No, it's not so. - I'm completely correct, completely correct, and that I think is also just a cultural problem with our voice training, as we act, like, everything should, you know, people are always like, you know, I should have unified registers in a perfectly mixed sound, right? It's like, right? - Immediately. - Yeah, but you are never gonna get there by only allowing yourself to make sounds that are even. You have to go to the furthest extremes of uneven, and then bring, but, you know, that's just, you know, I blame Nats, I blame university voice culture. - I want that as a tram step. I blame Nats too. - This is it. - I blame fucking Nats too. - This is a Nats slander channel. I won first place every year in undergrad. - Oh my God. - But I slander Nats. - That should be in your insta-buy. - I know. - I know. - I know. - World-famous synergies. - Over time. - And winner of the Nats Regional North Carolina based competition. So, but yeah, it's that culture of like, you know, I'm probably gonna get a, like, a defamation cease and desist order now. But, yeah, it's that scientific, dry, horrible, awful voice culture that has just led us to this, like, refusal to make, like, primal human. - We have to be healthy, we have to be safe. It has to be, you know, academically, curriculumized, you know, and like, a four-year plane of study. - So scary. - Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I could, I could- Sweet, all the way back around, it's like the same way we think we're critiquing people. you know, like there's this sort of neutrality to all of this. There's this expectation that none of it is going to be prickly. Yes, really a lot of it to most of it is going to be prickly. And that's just kind of the nature of like changing the game, changing your technique, changing the way we talk about singers, changing the way we talk about how fucked a lot of this industry is. Like you can't not be prickly about it. No, and that's the thing is like making the finding the time in place for like, you know, broad criticism where like, you know, in my opinion, take pretty large swings at things versus like working one-on-one with somebody where it's like, okay, like I'm here to actually help you help you personally resolve this and not, you know, say something big enough to inspire like a cultural change, right? Right. It's just trying to change you right now in this moment on this note or whatever. And there's definitely a difference in like the gentleness and people have a different tolerance and whatever. But we have to be willing to be a little bit more critical. And I'm not saying that like I want the, you know, contemporary singers of the world to not exist, right? Like I just want more space to exist for something else. Because the artistic preferences of the audience are certainly not monolithic. So our artistic approaches of artists and as an industry and who we lift up and whatever, we could be way more varied in the types of singing that we allow, well, that they allow, you know, to get through. But again, I think a huge problem is that the people who are in charge of the development of young singers do not have the frame of reference or the information to develop young singers. So they just take the people who are the most simple, most plain. And this is not every time. There's obviously exceptions to the role. But if you're looking at like the 80 to 85 percent, it's, it is the, it's the easiest call. It's, you know, so it's just like, I don't know. Where to begin? People are like, how do we fix it? I'm like, I don't fucking know. I'm just in the studio trying to fix it. So, you know, you're in the studio. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I really, I don't know if I, I mean, people, how do we fix operates? Like fix society, you know, we need to, it's, it's much bigger. It's always these projections and reflections of other things happening. Exactly. Yes. So on and on it goes. But I think it's worthwhile to like understand your niche in a lot of ways. Like, I think you have this very specific knowledge and opinion about the technical stuff. And people kind of ask you about the bigger picture. And you're very comfortable being like, I don't know. Yeah. Exactly. And they can, like, what person has to do everything? And that doesn't, people always try to like, do gotchas with that. It's very like fox news. Like, oh, yeah. Then like, how are you going to, whatever? And it's like, you know, what I just was right? I can't redesign everything for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think, you know, obviously, there is the practical questions of like, but also, you know, and, I think we had kind of talked about this in general as like a potential thing to talk about, but the idea of like, well, actually, I think somebody, somebody had asked me about this. They said, you know, do, um, do you think singers in general need to be more class conscious? And I was like, yes, period. Obviously. No, actually, I don't. No, really? Yeah. Not at all. But it really is such a thing of like singers, you know, all of us, most of us, you know, the 98% or whatever, that are not getting our full time income from singularly performing at the major stages of the world, right? Um, we see ourselves so often, I think as like, you know, individuals out here struggling for a spot at that 2% table. And we forgot to realize like, there's thousands of us. We could organize things for ourselves. We could write grants for ourselves. We know how this goes. Like we don't need to just continue to like showing up at the door and getting hot oil poured on our heads. Like, you know, we can say, let's build around castle, you know, and people need to recognize that there's a lot more of us than there are of them. And we have way more of a, um, interest in not just doing it the same old way, you know. So I think singers in general just have to realize that, you know, it's not just you, you know, I think because we also often see ourselves in competition with like cultural individualism, yeah. I remember when I was, you know, when I was in school and when I was doing all these yap auditions and I was still deluding myself to think that that was what I wanted for my life. Um, you know, I, I remember seeing all these singers who were getting these jobs over me and I was so, um, jealous. I was sad. I was doubting myself and like, and it, it, excuse your perspective existing in that world and that mindset so much because now where I am, like, Aval, these singers are like asking me to teach them how to sing now. These people I thought, like, you know, my God, they're like, these jobs would be, I must be terrible. Like, they're coming to me for vocal advice or like, you know, it just shows you how false that perspective of like, oh, so and so is getting this job and so and so and so is getting that job. You know, everybody knows like when they're coming up through school, like, you know, who are these people that are getting hired and like, you keep track of it and you, you, um, you're, you're thinking, what do I have to do to get there? And it's just like, once you get outside of that, you have a second to like breathe and be like, okay, you know, it's like, what was I, you know, what was I, like, moving out to the middle of nowhere and getting paid $2 and how to like, no, you know, um, so yeah, I just, I think people need to realize it's you're not in competition with people, like, you're, you have the opportunity to work with people and build community with people and like, and not in some like mumbo jumbo med away, like literally like building out relationships with individuals, you know, it doesn't have to feel like I'm organizing this mass collective, right? It's just changing your focus from like, you know, I'm the solo person like, hey, we're all out here, you know, and at the end of the day, who does it benefit to like keep us all these little hyper individual, you know, non-collective people? Definitely doesn't benefit us, um, but it is in some really interest. POV, we just like reinvented unionizing, yeah. I discovered unionization. We, we did an episode about this literally years ago, which is like kind of crazy to say. And it was, and it was inspired by, I don't know how much we can talk about this with that. We try to keep it on the DL, but um, there's this big drop box of music that got deleted literally by singers, singers got it deleted. They tried to get it deleted again. I was on a Facebook message warfare. Oh my god. So they came out on top. So we did an episode about it, kind of talking about individualism and talking about kind of this like false idea of the bootstraps, you know, people's explanations on these Facebook groups for why it should be deleted were, you know, I didn't have this growing up. It's not something everyone should be entitled to, like questioning what is it like your money, music, whatever, yeah, save your money, you can buy a score. I suffered. You have to suffer. So Charlotte and I remade the drop box and we like disseminated. Um, but yeah, anyway, that was a huge side note. Wait, why are we talking about that? What was like, what brought up the drop box for you? Oh, it's just like power to the people vibes. Yeah. And like this individualism and that was like the pieces of the episode. Right. Basically, like there's kind of a disconnect to like singers are kind of very like some singers, not probably not the singers will sing to this are a little more than willing to sort of side with the powers that be as opposed to other singers who like may need a lot of singer. I mean, and that's the most tragic thing I see. The most tragic thing I see is like, you know, particularly, it's like, of course, you know, we all, you know, expect like just straight whites as people like to align with that power structures. Right. But when you see over and over again, these, you know, queer singers or singers of color or whatever, like getting a lick of success and becoming, you know, like, oh, well, the industry is fine. Like I had a good experience. And I'm just like, no, or like winning operalia. Literally, when you're like, stop posting this. The fact I see people like normal people who are like posting pictures with them. Well, and the, the, that is like a whole other kind of worms. I mean, like, like on, on, where you see these tape major teachers to like posting tributes to James love bot, I'm on his birthday. These majors, that's why I got rid of it. These, well, young singers in their 30s and 40s, liking current Facebook statuses of David. I'm like, why are you engaging with these people like they're not it's really scary in terms of just like ethics, you know, and the operalia thing being like, you know, the tip of that iceberg of like people, I'm so grateful to plusy Romingo, you know, a certain someone who runs Santa Fe, like just unapologetically into Domingo, like, no mention of the fact this guy is like associated with human traffickers and like has multiple harassment and assault. And I'm just like, it's so disorienting. Like, it's all fucking gas, like we're gaslighting ourselves, like, it's so creepy. Disorienting is the word, I feel, because you're just reading this and you're like, how could this possibly be Uh, what you think is what you should say. It's just like on the spot and experience I've had over the past couple of years. So obviously we were in COVID when we started this and it was really fun and incredible. And I am now back in the world trying to sing. And I do experience an extreme amount of, um, I feel very put off. I feel very not aligned with myself going back into the industry and trying to get hired. All of a sudden it's a lot harder to like stay true to my morals. A great example. I applied to Central City and I didn't get in, but I hadn't heard when that scandal hit. And I haven't gotten into anything this summer. And I was like, what the fuck do I do if I get into Central City? Like I feel like, can I, but I shouldn't, but can I? Like if it's the only thing I have, like, what do I do? Like it's so easy, like during COVID, it was so easy to be like, fuck this. Like I'm never going back. And now I'm like, please, I'll take anything. Just like give me a little grain of rice and I'll take it out. You're so happily, I love it, you know, you know, it's very hard to stay true. It's super difficult. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, you know, but also from my position is like, it's very easy for me to be extremely critical of these companies and of these practices and judgmental of singers who buy into it because like, I'm not paying my bills with it. You know, right, right. So like, of course, I have to acknowledge the tremendous privilege that comes with not, you know, being, being a critic of the industry, who, you know, if anything, it's advantageous for me professionally. Because singers are like, yeah, fuck the industry. I want to study with that guy. You know, and it's like, you know, so it's not easy, right? Like, and I always try to take with, and the thing, another, another brilliant thing that's on our, you know, Mettich, Usia has said is, you know, at a certain point, not a defined, I don't think there's any, you know, hard lines, but at a certain point, in your participation with a system, you are, whether you understand it or not, making a pact with the values of that system. So if you, you know, yes, singers are vulnerable, and yes, singers do not have the same safety, just as a class of singers, but also along, you know, race and sexuality and gender presentation, all those things. Um, there's varying levels of safety with being able to, like, be critical and stand up and speak out in bubble, blah, um, but at a certain point, you reach a level, and I don't think, again, I don't think there's any hard line, you know, it's like kind of like a smell check, right? Like you smell it as a good or bad, right? Then you know, it's like, you have an obligation, in my opinion, to be critical or act critically of whether or not it benefits you personally, like, it's not necessarily ethically, um, not necessarily ethically horrible to, you know, take this contract to do that competition, but it's like, are you willing to also be critical, plainly, of that in, on top of your success? Yes. You know, are you willing to use that agency that you have for more than just yourself? You know, and I do think there is, like, a level where it's like, you're complicit in this. Yeah. I completely agree. And I also think, I think people need to make that choice for themselves, but I know for me personally, even though I have not like, I'm not like a successful singer, it's still, I still feel, I still feel, um, complicit. And I think that it's okay to like, um, have that duality within you that isn't really reconcilable. And it's something you just have to kind of like work through every day, like kind of on a gig to gig basis. I think people want the firm, yes or no answer when really it's not that simple, but you can't just accept what's going on in order to make it as far as you can. And you can't just say, I'm never doing any of this stuff like, I have an incredible moral compass. Like, it's a concept back and forth and it has to be a conversation. I think it has to be a negotiation in a collective that we're very open to discussing. And I also don't think, like, for example, the central city thing, I did see some people really trying to shut down other people saying, if you take this contract, you, um, your question, which I don't think is true. There was no, first of all, there was no strike. So technically, there's no picket line to be crossed. It was just a complicated, very gray situation. And I think by kind of demarcating a line in the sand saying, you're a bad person if you've crossed this line. Doesn't really help anyone, but it also doesn't help to be like, it's all fine. Like, we're just singers. Like, what power do we have? There has to be this tension all the time, which is very uncomfortable. But I do think it's just the way it has to be. You know, this just reminded me of the BOA episode we did when we were talking to a few members from BOA. Um, and I think Zida was the one who talked about that with us. She was like, you know, yeah, you're going to take your audition. This is right before like 2021 auditions. So we were like, kind of all getting back into the swing of things and deciding like, okay, are we going to re-enter this world? What is that going to look like after everything that's happened? Right. And she was like, you know, yeah, like if you're going to, I don't want to paraphrase her, but she was like, if you're going to take these gigs, great, take them. But also like, are you going to email the people who are in charge and be like, I've looked around and noticed basically all of us are white. Like what kind of conversations are you having amongst yourselves to sort of change the makeup of this in future years, you know, like you put pressure on a company and still go to your contract. Yeah. We can tag that episode because she said it beautifully. But that's, that's the kind of thing where it's like, there's room to be there and be critical. You know, like not show up, but also not being like a yes man until like whatever is happening, you know. And I think that is so related to, you know, the vocal culture that tells singers they're never going to know any better technically, to also making singers feel like they're never going to know anything better about how they deserve to be treated, how what kind of agency they can expect in contracts, like, and what room you have to occupy, like as a person in a space, you know, like to say like, look, you know, I know your company XYZ, you know, with your golden laurels and whatever, but like, this is not right. Like, I'm an adult. I can see. I can hear it. Like, this is fucked, you know, and I think it is the removal of, you know, it really feels to me in general, like treating adults like children, right, not like we should treat children like that either. But this attitude of like, you know, mentalization, exactly, you're 26, 27, you have two, three degrees, high level degrees, right? You know, a quarter of a century of life experience and acting like what do you mean? You think what? And it's just that, that whole is just, you know, conservatism, boo, absolute, absolute, and just like defaulting to the authority figure. Yeah, so like supremacist in nature, exactly that whole like, you know, we have a power structure, we fall into it or we don't, you know, and there's no, yeah, no room for like alternative voices or conversation or community, like it's all just like these white supremacist power structures, just being reflected in this like niche, like that we're in, like it's just such a direct production of that. Hey, guys, what's up? It's editing Perry here. Unfortunately, I had to cut the beginning of this conversation because I was talking a little bit of shit and I don't want that little bit of shit out there in public. But suffice it to say I was basically just talking about people who kind of use the deity of the composer as an excuse to not let the singer make any sort of, you know, informed choice about their performance, you know, kind of saying, well, the composer wouldn't like that blah, blah, you know, just kind of refusing to collaborate by acting like classical music is sort of like a museum piece, you know, supposed to be preserved, et cetera, et cetera. And then talking about how that sort of comes crashing down around people when you get to more contemporary, you know, 20th century music that does have a lot of freedom and play and not as many quote unquote rules or it's not as standardized. So I was just kind of talking about that, but the rest of the conversation was really good so we didn't want to cut the whole thing. Anyway, so now that it's set up, I'll send you guys back to our little con though. The first of all, the idea in general that just because it's what the composer wanted, it's what we must do, it's like, fuck that, you know, it's like, we are able to make a more artistic, a more intellectual distinction about like what, like, yes, often composers were indeed musical, visionaries, geniuses, whatever, right? And they left information that we can look at and say, that's a fucking great idea. We should try that, but also just this reverence for like the maestro wanted this and it's just like who fucking cares who Cheney wanted. And singers were so evolved back then singers were like, I'm singing it like this. It's so funny to me when singers like, oh no, no ornaments in bed, right? And it's like very late people change things. He was like, I don't know if it sounds good and people like it. It's better. And it's this academic, this academic understanding of these pieces as like this museum work that must be perfectly preserved as exactly what is on the page. And it's like, nobody fucking cares about that except circle jerking academics, right? Or people who love power and want to make the final version in the room. Exactly. Exactly. And then they can say, well, people who want to utilize that to, you know, bolster their own opinion or lack thereof. But it's like the music is like guardrails, right? It is like this is like a scope that you take. And maybe you hop over it once or twice or make, but there's a wide range of, you know, nobody was writing. Donateady was not writing, you know, these rest of scenarios thinking, oh, yes, in 150 years of conservatory in America, some singer who grew up speaking English will be learning Italian diction and singing this opera. It was like, I need to, I have this idea. I'm going to write it down on paper so it can get, you know, drawn around on horse carriage to some theater and balonia, you know, so somebody can look at this and basically, okay, all right, yeah, okay, okay, okay, oh, you know, and then go for it, right? It was not like, this is a sacred, it was like it was popular theater, you know, it was something where this culture of like, this must be exactly perfect as it was written. It was like, this needs to be entertaining and needs to be relevant and needs to sound good. Like, so, you know, the losing contact with that through, you know, I think mostly the academia culture around opera now because, you know, we don't really exist in a pop culture world, we exist in like, you know, academia and a very narrowly funded arts culture in the States at least, where, you know, people are just trying to scrape it together, right? Besides, if you made your institutions, but even the met, you know, they're digging 30 million right down like, yeah, like, shit's not cute there. Yeah, and it's just like, you know, they say, we want to do these new works and then they put on these things they've done already, you know, and it's like, when they read it, you know, they had poor again, they had that great sell-out season of them, they did it again, it was like fucking empty, right? It was like, you know, I just, I mean, but honestly, that's a whole nother conversation. Peter Gelb just needs to, you know, go. He's got a good-- You guys need to have a chat. Yeah, oh, well, he, you know, it's funny, he, I went to the lendemann scenes and he came out on stage to give a preview and everyone was popping and I said, boom, very loudly. Brian Zieger was sitting behind me. I should have went over really well. But I was like, somebody's got to say this man fucking sucks. Yeah, well, it's like Empress, no content, no nothing, whatever, you know, like, no one's saying it. I will go fully on the record. Peter Gelb fucking sucks. End of sentence, that's it. We're gonna be the clip we asked Sarah, but we're gonna put on our Instagram. Guys, new podcast. You know, that made me think of the composers too. I always use Bach as an example for that. Because he was like working in his like little church, doing his little tunes. And like, his little tools. He was just doodling around, you know, like, yes, he's prolific as fuck, because he was just doodling every day. He was like, got another one to do this week, like, got it right. Yeah, and it's all just like, I mean, it's genius, but it's like, sure, because he's in this flow state of just like creating, like, it was not bad to him on certain, like, certain little like corrals, you know, like, he's just like making shit. And then like, we study it from this academic lens, which I don't mind, like, it's lit, sure. But like, yeah, pictures, just like somebody creating work, like, it was fun, you know, he had a musical language. Yeah, rules. He wrote in those rules and musical and develop them, obviously, you know, innovated on them. But like, when we look at it in hindsight of, like, rather than like, work in a musical language, it becomes just like, this is the language. Yeah, like, you know, it's like biblical in a way. Right. It's like, this is the text. This is the tum. This is by the gods. Yeah. Literally. And that whole, you know, we have to look at these works as contemporary, even though they're not, right? And there's a habit. I think there is a happy medium because a lot of, you know, you know, and the problem, I think, with a lot of kind of going back to the, you know, this divide between like, contemporary singing aesthetics and pedagogy versus like, singing aesthetics and pedagogy from the quote unquote, "nage," which is also a silly term to me, because like, if you look at operatic singing in the 1950s versus the 1890s versus the 1990s, there's like vast differences. Well, maybe not vast, but it's not one, there's not one golden age. Like, people in the 30s, it's a continuum, right? But to, to, it's not simply like, well, this is how it was done on the past. This is the golden age of operas. So we should do this. The claim that I make that I try to make and try to make a distinction of is it's not just simply this, like, this is how Dimash still wanted it. You know, it's like, we like this because it sounds good, because it works in a theater, because it moves us. It's not just because we have to like, stick to these, you know, there's a lot in the history of opera that we can throw out the fucking window and into the trash, you know, I have no interest in preserving, particularly in terms of like power structures and like, etc. You know, but, but we can make discerning aesthetic choices about like, maybe we do want to try that again because as we like it, not because Mozart wanted it, not because that's how they did it in the 20s and like, you know, brass was greener back then. But because we like it, it sounds good. It's exciting, you know, it practically works better in a theater, right? So, you know, I think that distinction is also an important one to make in, in this whole scope of like, balancing like the past with the present of like, is this academic? Are we observing the past religiously? Are we innovating like, we can be discerning in that innovation while still having an awareness because the thing is is like, ultimately, you know, if your aesthetic in the art form is not based on a thorough understanding of the history of that art form, it's not an aesthetic. It is ignorance, right? If you don't understand, you know, and I say that loosely, but there's a lot of people, I think, who point to, you know, contemporary singing and they say, oh, well, you know, times have changed, which is not just how we sing now, and it's like, you know, what's wrong with that? And it's like, I don't necessarily have a problem if somebody's making a form choice to say, yes, I like breathy singing. Yes, I like these unclear bells. Yes, I like wide vibratoes and intonation issues, right? But if you are making, or, you know, what would they actually say it's good? I like the artistic, you know, I like how sensitive and musical it is, right? The problem is, is most of the people defending that do not have a serious point of reference to what actually came before. So I'm like, you're not really making an argument in defense of this versus that. You're really just making an argument in defense of, I don't know any better, this is what I got told and I'm defending what I got told was right, right? It is like a, it is a rather than looking outward and thinking critically, it just becomes just like, this is what I'm told, this is what I'm doing, you know, so, you know, sort of like rationalizing it, like taking what's in front of you and sort of rationalizing why it's in front of you instead of kind of questioning what's going on. Exactly, exactly. And I love your centering of like, I think this is just like coming to me now as I'm listening to you talk about this, but I love the way you center like joy and pleasure in the experience of either singing or listening to singing or experiencing your career. And there's something so inherently, especially in like a white capitalist society, there's something so triggering about like centering pleasure and centering joy and centering enjoying something. And so I feel like that's so much in my experience of like the avatar of house of schmizzy that's so much of like, like me and my versace, me eating my oysters, me having my martini, like I love my fucking life, like I am very happy and I love listening to good opera. And like that is so indicative of your opinion overall, I feel like if like we liked to sing like this and like we enjoyed watching operas that were like this, that's why I want to do it this way, not just to add more rules or add more like, you know, like just like pounding someone over the head with another opinion, it's like, no, this is better, like it sounds better and it's fun to listen to, like that's why I like it, you know. Yeah, well, and people can make people are welcome to make an aesthetic argument of like actually, I don't like how the reason, right, is any saying like I don't think that applies anymore fine, make your argument, but like we have space in art to have varying schools of thoughts, right? And the problem is is industrially like we have just squashed out that room. And yes, but I mean to the pleasure thing, like it has to feel good, it has to feel satisfying physically, emotionally, spiritually, and we can, we can hear it. When you're not enjoying the sound that is coming out of your mouth, we hear it. And what gets the audience off is hearing somebody who sounds like they are just like, yes, yes, I want, I don't want to hear somebody who sounds like they're like, okay, I want, oh, the sirens are going by, sorry, my. Okay, it's New York, the band. Yeah, right, literally, what, what we want to hear is somebody, you know, when somebody gets up there and they're like, okay, I'm trying to stay in the notes and the rhythms and my coach and my vowels and this and that and the other and conservatory trauma, and we hear all of that, Right? It sounds, it sounds sterile. It sounds not good. It sounds like not fun. I want to hear somebody up, you know, in the same way that when we listen to contemporary singers who are able to just not operatic singers, who are just able to get up on stage and just let it fucking rip, you know, they're not thinking about, you know, this whole, like, we've got to get it exactly right in the placement, you know, they just tear, right? Like, I want to hear about an operatic singing, I want to hear somebody who is letting their voice fucking rip, you know, in a way that doesn't feel like, that's the face, that's the face. I see it so often, you know, if you're going to start a note to sing and it looks like, I know what it sounds like. I know what it sounds like. You already know, but if you see somebody go, you know, it's just, yeah, literally. So, I'll ask. I'll ask. Are there any other questions that you got that way? Oh, yeah. We're interesting to you. Yeah. What's your a non-journey these days? It's my favorite part of the internet and it's really happening for you. Well, I mean, a lot of it is people ask, I think a big part of what people seem to be curious about and they're asking about singers, teachers, et cetera. Is there looking for some reassurance that what they like or who they're being taught by is good? Because I don't think they know. And my whole point is you should be able to tell, right? Start looking inward and stop looking outward for those answers, right? You are capable of discerning whether or not Nadine Sierra or Freddie Tommaso or Rachel Wilson or Christine Gurkey or whoever the fuck is on stage these days is good by listening to them, by listening to everyone else and assessing what do I like? What sounds good to me? What works? What doesn't? You have multiple degrees in this girl, right? Like, use your ears. Use your tongue. You're doing these little pop quizzes. You're doing the tut or boot to like, okay, insanely out here giving us a free education. You're like, let's do it. Let's try it out. And certainly, like, I do sometimes judge people's taste. But the point of all that is for you, you know, it's not just like to the old singers, boot the new singers, right? It's like, listen to them. Do you hear clear vowels? Do you hear a consistent vibrato cycle? Do you hear legato? Do you hear registration going on, right? Like, what do you think of their artistic affect? Does this sound like it would actually work in a theater, right? And I think that's also a huge thing that people miss today is just that theatrical aspect because so much of what we consume, operatically, for your average citizen, is not in the theater. Right. It has been moving away from that for the entirety of the 20th century, you know, with the record industry and then cassette tapes and then CDs and then digital music and then YouTube and, you know, the Met Broadcast. Instagram live. Oh, I know those. I will, if I never saw another, literally, if I never saw another front facing camera serenade from Nadine's era. But anyway, you know, whatever makes you happy, people put worse things on the internet, people put much worse on the internet. So what do you think happy? Like good. Yeah. Yeah. But what were you even talking about right before? Oh, fuck, the fucking listen to people. Yeah. And it's, but the thing is, I don't think a lot of people, you know, like before I lived in New York, I went to the opera maybe once a year, twice a year max, like, you know, now that I live in New York, I'm going to the opera every week if I want to, but like a lot of people don't have access to getting into a theater and seeing, singing live, right, which is again, and coming back to that cultural problem. But like, so people, I don't think are listening in a theatrical context. And if there was anything that I want people to understand, it's like, you know, when people say, you know, they'll listen to a recording of "Touch of Seening," right? And she's like just belting to shit like on the middle of the staff. And it's like, you don't understand that this style of singing, if we go all the way back to where it developed from, was from, you know, outdoor amphitheaters at, you know, it was loud. It was yelling essentially. It was people delivering oration in these amphitheaters and these theaters or whatever, but then when they came to do opera, they're like, okay, we want to make that musical. So it was an extension of theatrical speech, right? So it because there was no microphones. And when you listen to a singer like "Touch of Seening," or "Laymon," or, you know, young callus, or any of these good singers, and it sounds like, well, that doesn't really sound like what I've been told is musical or expressive, or it just sounds like they're blasting away all the time. It's like you need to understand the theatrical dimensions of the voice, right? Right, right. If you're singing a low F sharp in a full chest voice up next to a horn, like, yeah, it's going to sound really loud, right? But if you hear that same note from 150 feet away, the experience of the contour is so different. It's like smooth to self out. Yeah, exactly. They're not thinking about listening to the sound from 150, 200, 300, 500 feet away. Yeah, exactly. You know, and for me, that is a really important part of experiencing opera is that it's so exciting. It is exciting when you get that ring and your inner ear, and you can feel top to bottom like the voice. Like the sympathetic, you can feel it like hitting your face. Yeah, yeah. That is a tactile part of the thrill of live theater, right? So when you go to the met and then you hear all these people in it, you can hear them, but it's like, what? You know, it's like you hear just like a people leaning forward. It's more like you don't not hear them. No, it's like, don't not hear, but like I don't really hear them. There's a difference between being heard and projecting, right? Like I can hear most singers of the metal the time. I can hear them, but their voice is not reaching me. Their voice is over there. It is not here with me. And what our job is, what our job is as singers is to get our voice there, right? And it's, it's not by forcing. It's not by pushing. It's not by doing any of these things because I tell you what, those singers on stage now are pushing, forcing a lot more, a lot more. And the other thing that I think people kind of misunderstand is like, you know, one thing I hear really often is well, you just expect perfection from singers. Why don't you allow imperfection? I'm like, have you listened to Renata Tabaldi lately? That bitch was too bad all the time. Collis and her bit her best singing would sing with a while. It is never about perfection. It is about personality. It's about the appricality. It's about big swings. You know, it has nothing to do with sterile, perfect note to note, Theraman playing, right? I shouldn't read the Theraman. The Theraman is actually an extraordinarily expressive instrument. But anyway, the, it is that's real about it is never about perfect intonation or perfect this or exactly that. I want to hear it dirty. Yeah. Exactly. Ross Matthew said it best. I like a little stank in my drag. I like a little stank in my opera. Yes. I don't want to hear this pristine like pearl. Yeah. You know, I want moments of that, but I also want some dirty ass shit, you know, so that's what I'm paying for. I understand where a lot of the anonymous questions come from. Like, when I say, like, these people who are sending these questions, like, I have those questions, too, and it's so much a feature of how we are raised and how we are taught, and we are just taught not to trust ourselves. And I think people find you, I personally, my own personal experience, I found you, and I really liked the videos that you were sharing, and I felt like our ears were very similar. And so I do want to know. And then when our views would diverge, for example, we don't have to get into this, but I do like Trianos, and I love that. That is, okay. It's just fine. Trianos is not bad. It is this journey. But it's the type of thing where it's like, it's fine. Like, there's kind of a, I have to make, because of the way I've been taught, and how I haven't been offered the space to sort of form my own opinions, I sort of have to like, recover. It's like, okay, it's okay that James doesn't like Tatiana Trianos. We're gonna live. I can change it. Yes. Like, I've done the two. I have been exact, exact same reactions that so many of the anonymous messages do. I just don't want to like act like I'm trying to other these people. No, no, no, no, we're listening to this episode right now. Like, I completely, like, understand. No, we're in it. We're a part of it all. And it's a learning process of like untangling and being comfortable with people having different opinions, even when you feel like, hmm, you know, they might be right about that. But I still really like the singer. So like, I'm gonna move on. But, but that's the thing that I really hope somehow comes through is like, I'm not interested in saying, I don't like this singer. Fuck you if you do. It's like, I don't like this singer. Talk to me about why you do. Or I like this singer. Talk to me about why you don't. And then we can have a discussion where I can simultaneously, because it is, it is preferential. There's no absolutes. There's no hard lines. Yeah. Yeah. It's a vessel through which you can have a larger conversation about, like, technical opinions. It's not just about that singer. And because of that, you. are a mirror. Like you're acting like a mirror when I react that way about you not liking Trionos, you are my mirror of like me looking at myself trying to figure out why do I like it. And it's a very functional. You serve a very functional purpose at least in my aesthetic listening life. And it's sort of understanding the how to distance that function from like the person who just has these opinions and it's like a fun person to talk to. I think that's been like interesting to watch people go through that process. And that's kind of the thing is like, you know, the liking something for just, you know, tasting at the first time of being like that was delicious. We'll never not have value, right? Like that, that first impression that I love this, this move me never want to get rid of that, right? But as, you know, artists or as people who consume art, there is another level that you can access if you choose beyond just does this feel good? Does this sound good? Do I like it? And starting to ask why? Right? Getting into that level of like thinking and and and, you know, creative discourse. It's an invitation really. It's like if you can get to this. If you are content to live in this world of, I hear it, I hear that supposedly good. Fine, I, you know, I'm not there. Like enjoy life. Yeah. You know, whatever. But if you're interested in like having a little bit deeper of like analysis of like what really is it about that? What are the qualities that turn me on or turn me off? It's, it's just an invitation to think deeper, you know, to go deeper. And like that is for some people. And it's not for others. And that for me is okay. Like I don't, I'm not out here to be universally liked or universally understood or universally whatever, right? So I, and that's something as an artistic community that we just need to live with. Like it's not going to be universal. Like an artistic communities and probably in general, but particularly an art because, you know, I don't want to say it's not frivolous, but often it's not life or death, right? It's not like, you know, we're not in the realm of human dignity. Often it's like, you know, expressing selves and whatever. But anyway, we live in this world where we are able to have this where it's not like a disagreement over like, I don't like gay people, you know, it's like, I don't like her singing. You know, it's a lower state. Right. Have this opportunity to live in this world where there is healthy disagreement. And there is like varying opinions and build our tolerance for that. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Like learn to live in the cracks. And you don't have to kind of have one. You don't have to have both feet on the same little piece of pavement. You can kind of like step around. It's fun to live in that. Yeah. That in between that gray area. That's like where the interesting stuff happens. Yeah. 100%. I'm trying to think of like what my example was with that. But I think one thing, but you were right about this when I listened back. It was just like an old thing that I'd never really thought about. I was always taught with like Joan Sutherland is like the the the the right. So as a color first Prano, that was like who I need to listen to 100% of the time. And here and you say like, you're like, wait, some of these vowels are like pretty fucked the fuck up. And I was like, yeah, what the fuck is she saying? I never let myself be like, that was, that was not a word. Like, I don't know what, you know, but that doesn't mean like I'm writing her off forever. But like, I had turned off my critical eye because it was like, right on a pedestal. And that's what you do for me with singers that I always I just never thought to critique because I would put them on this pedestal. And you're out here being like, yeah, enjoy it. But also like, did you listen to that verse of that? So like, did you think about this for a second? I'm like, oh, fuck. Yeah. And you know, the other, I mean, and that's the thing is like when I say like, you know, I, you know, if somebody asked me, do you like Joan Sutherland or do you like Trionos or like do you agree with their technique or like whatever? I'm like, you know, I can say like Sutherland do I care, do I think from a technical perspective? She was like a goal post? No, she did some things really well. Sure. Right. But that also doesn't mean I don't like Joan Sutherland. Right. I like a lot of what she did. And if you would give me a ticket to go hear her, I would buy it immediately. Right. Right. I don't, I don't, I, you know, I'm, it's not, you know, if you say, oh, I don't like their technique or whatever, it's like, you know, it's not, I, I don't like that person. I don't, I don't respect them as an artist. And I hate you for liking her. Yeah. Exactly. It's like, who am I now? Someone. Yeah. It's like, I'm not Trionos. I'm, it's not like I'm going to not go see a show with her in it. Like, I don't hate her singing. Yeah. But the other thing is it's like, I also, I've got a list of notes for callus, kareli, domonico, the singers I love the most. And it's not about hating them. It's just about having a critical assessment of like, you know, even if I have my notes, it's not like I, I have them because it's like, I want to change that. You should have done that differently. But it, but it is, but it is so I can understand my perspective better, my artistic perspective better, not because I want to necessarily change you unless you want to pay me to do so. I'm happy to give you that advice, but like, you know, for me, the criticism is about refining my own perspective and helping people start to build the tools to do that for themselves. Not, oh, well, how such a mise likes, you know, this singer doesn't like that singer. So that's why I think that is the opposite of what I want. I want you to start listening and being discerning, you know, and kind of there's kind of like two different like Sutherlands in your life. There's a Sutherland that like has a function for you as someone who's trying to be a better teacher. And then there's a Sutherland who's like a superstar who was great and what you would love to see. Right. And those things can exist and it's fine. It is perfectly fine. It is more, it is necessary. I mean, you have to have that distinction of like, okay, now this is my practical use of this person as an example for this, this, this, this and this. And this is my reaction to them as like a singer. And also, you know, you know, the human dignity question is, of course, like, you know, obviously respect for everyone in that regard. But like, yes, we have to have the ability to hold space for those things, you know, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Any last, oh, we wanted to talk about the Sopranos. Oh, you know, the theme song to our pod is junior singing what he sings. You know, he released that into. Well, he's got, I mean, he's got, he's got albums. He actually, he just did, well, just did. I think two years ago, I'm not sure if he's still doing it anymore. But he had like a show that he didn't long on, and say, you know, it's like, why? Why don't we? Oh, my god. He goes around with like a guitar and like, does acoustical Neapolitan songs? Yeah. What a star. But yes, could not make it through a podcast without at least mentioning the Spanish ones. You know, I am like, maybe 10 minutes away from satin dolls right now, maybe 15. My, are you kidding? I was very close. Yeah. I went there for the first time, actually, with my brother's ex from like undergrad, who's also a Sopranos super fan that we've just, you know, remained connected on Facebook. And she's also from Norturesy. So we went on like a day tour of like the pizza land. We went to satin dolls. And we drove by, I think we drove like by like where they take that shot as he's going over the bridge. Yeah, we drove through all of that. And it was just a complete highlight of my life. Oh, and we sat in the booth at Holstein. Wow. Yeah. And honestly, I'm not, I'm really not like a fangirl of like any, I have a pretty like detached view of everything in life. Like, but when I sat in that booth, I was just like, it was like electricity and my body, when I sat down there, I was just like, James Kendall, he's so good. He's so good. And it was just the most, I really not ever had an experience like that of like, you know, like a pop culture thing where it's like, I'm there. And I'm sitting there and like, you know, I've been in the fucking Vatican. And I was just like, whatever, but like I sat at that table. I sat at that table where the Sopranos ended. And I got some onion rings for the table. And it was just a full transcendence, full transcendence. I could have died in that moment, just like Tony did apparently. And it's been happy. It was complete artistic nirvana. Oh my god. I love that. I love that we have such strong reactions to the Sopranos. I feel similarly that I'm not like a huge fandom of many things, but it's just like such an epic. It's such a hero's journey. It's like such a giant piece. And I love how like deeply it moves us like change everything. It's so, yeah. It's so, and it's, I mean, I feel like a huge part of it is just like the like, you know, late 90s, early 2000s nostalgia. Like I'm looking at like Carmella's hair. And I'm like, my mom had a platinum blonde bomb at one point. Like, you know, I'm looking sort of surreal in that way. Yeah. And you know, it's just, it's like 90s, early 2000s, like aesthetic porn, which I love. And I, you know, it's, of course, the anti-hero journey I'm obsessed with. Right. Every time. Literally, I mean, that show has had a you just, I mean, I started smoking cigars because of the Sopranos. Really the love. Yes. Oh my god. Yes. I was like, I want to try this. And now, you know, cigars are one of my favorite things. And yeah, I mean, so much is that I mean, you know, Fudio Carmella. What's how am I forgetting her name, Rosalie Appriel, fashion icons, especially in the early seasons, like those outfits, we're giving full 90s Versace Camp, and that's the huge part of my style aesthetic. I like to think of myself as like a mix between studio and Carmella, it's like my two fashion icons. I love it. Anthony, I mean, you know, even though he's an awful horrible murdering bastard, right? I have, it's that anti-hero thing. It's like you're in love with somebody who's a horrible person. Right. Because, you know, I guess you see yourself, you see hints of yourself in them in some way. You do. That's exactly why. You see exaggerated, like, wow, if I really went down a dark path, that could have been me. You see the way he loves, and you're like, I love the way he does exactly. And so you see his humanity, and then that's why it like hits so deep. You're like, he is a complex person. My grandpa hated the sopranos. He thought it was so racist. He thought it was such. It made Italians look horrible. Which is part of the sopranos. They did not like it. They literally thought he was used to watch it. Yeah, like the godfather, totally inappropriate. The show is so self-referential in the sense that it totally understands. Like, I mean, they do a lot of talking about even like the place of like TV. Like, you know, which is so lynchian. Yeah. Yeah, there's like broad discussions of like the place of media. And like, I just absolutely, yeah, I mean, it is for reasons I will be seeking to understand for the rest of my life. Exactly. The most perfect TV show I've ever seen so far for me. And I mean, now I, you know, if for nothing else, the global goal. I mean, I love I love cute smoked and cured meats. Probably the greatest thing that came from that for me is the value of good representation of a good meat. Yeah. The eating scenes in the sopranos are also just that seem where Bobby and Tony are at the diner. And Bobby gets like a steak and fries. And Tony gets like eggs and like two tomato slices. And within two seconds, Tony's like, let me get a steak and fries. I was like, that is like, that is my constant mood. I try and order a salad and I'm just like, steak sand over here, you know. Oh, the surprise. Oh my god, is there anything else that's like on your mind? I think you covered everything that like, yeah, I feel like very broadly. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know. But I mean, what's on my mind is life is great. You know, like everything's great. I feel like I'm having a great time. I'm for, you know, I couldn't be happier with what's going on in my own mind. So, you know, and I've been, yeah, I know I've just been in a, you know, it's been good. It's been good. I have no complaints, you know, amaze. And it's very thing you want to plug. Anything you want to call only.com/houseofsmaze. I feel your conservatory trauma. Learn how to sing like a bad bitch. Happy to work with you. The rumors, the rumors are true. Indeed. My god, we're so happy you came on. This has been like, yeah, this isn't so fun. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. No, we've been, we've been, we've been shitty chatting about the potential of this for a while. So, it's lovely to actually get to sit down and yak with you all. Even though we already had our, we already had our mitt, our mitt on sample debut a month ago. Right. But now we actually get to sit down and. No work collaborators, true collaborate. Exactly. Exactly. Thanks so much. Thanks, James. Thanks for being with me. It's that being, holding it out. I'm grateful, heart.