2951: Slow Reps vs. Fast Reps — What the Data Actually Says (The Answer Has Nuance)

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Today, we talk about the data. What does rep speed and how you do your reps tell you about the goals and results you're about to achieve? We're going to talk about that today. Let's go. I think prompt this does matter. Yes, something did prompt this to me. So, we'll talk about the data. So, studies are getting quoted right now, and I've seen these studies that say that rep speed within a reason. So, they're not going crazy, right? So, you're not doing like a 40-second rep. I don't think we have too many studies on those, but they'll compare slow reps to fast reps, right? Slower negatives to faster negatives and positives. And they'll show similar heights. Hypertrophy, okay? So, they build the same amount of muscle. Now, the thing that is frustrating to me, and I'm sure it is to you guys and to other good trainers, is that people communicate things in ways that are so simplified that we really lose the nuance. And so, what I think the consumer hears or the average person hears is it doesn't matter, which actually isn't the case. Now, for hypertrophy, it might not matter, although I'll make the case it does matter. And it matters for a lot of other things. So, let's talk about that a little bit, about rep speeds and why they matter and why we should pay attention and not just listen to someone on Instagram say they all build the same amount of muscle. Well, they matter for a lot of different reasons. When I think of speeds of my reps for my clients, I always took my clients through a really, really slow rep range, especially early on in their training. And this was just purely out of a mechanical. Right? They want to get, be able to tweak their form. And if they're kind of moving at this faster cadence, it's really tough to critique and get them to feel it. And so, I did a lot of like pausing in the middle of the rep and slowing it way down and talking to them through the rep. Like, you feel it there. And, oh, but more arch your, arch this more, puff your chest out more, pull this back, roll this forward. Like, cueing them through the movement until it becomes something that they feel really comfortable. Before we start to manipulate, the tempo later on and reap the benefits of that. It was like starting slow to me was always the better way to go. Yeah, starting slow. And really, it's about like how we really anchor our body down and create this stability. And so, to be able to perform the action of the movement we're trying to achieve too, lots of the stuff to learn how to like keep the rest of their body like really stable and in place. And two, to avoid pain and dysfunction, and, you know, perform it mechanically sound. 'Cause then once we add acceleration, this is where it's like, okay, if there's any flaw in the kinetic chain, it really gets like exponentially louder, so. - Totally. What's frustrating to me with stuff like this, when I hear this data getting cited, is that it throws out logic. I think the average person, this is what's funny to me. The average person, if you were to ask them this, do you think, do you think it would be safer to do an exercise slow and controlled or faster? They're gonna logically be like, well, slow and controlled, obviously. But then you got these people communicating on social media saying it doesn't matter for hypertrophy. I'm gonna tell you something right now. The thing that will prevent you from building muscle and getting the body that you want the most is injury. Like nothing will stop you in your tracks faster than injury. Yes, you can become unmotivated. You can stop going to the gym, all that stuff. But when you're hurt, you're hurt. You can't do anything. And moving a weight slow is always safer for a few different reasons. One, what you said, Justin, if your technique is off a little bit, going fast is just gonna make it off that much more. Because however hard it is to have perfect squat form with a controlled tempo, now you multiply it times 10 when you're trying to go fast. And that's just true for any kind of movement. The second thing is just momentum. When I'm lowering a weight and changing direction, if I'm lowering a hundred pounds, let's say I'm going down in a squat with a hundred pounds and then I change direction to come up, that momentary change in direction because of momentum makes that 100 pounds heavier. - Yeah. - Okay, it's always heavier because I have to change it. We know this, like you get a heavy ball. - It's physics. - Yeah, it's physics. Like you get something heavy moving in a direction to get it to move in the other direction, you gotta stop the momentum and then move in the other direction. And so that a hundred pound squat could become 200 pounds momentarily if you go fast. And that person's joints or stability might not be able to support it, even with good form, even with perfect form. - Well, doesn't that get exponentially heavier the faster you go too? - That's right. - So it's like going fast is-- - The change of direction is really hard. - So if you're, let's just use a number, like you drop into a squat and it's a three second drop into the squat and then go back to the direction versus a two second versus a one second versus a half a second. - Yeah. - And you shorten that deceleration, the time of deceleration or descent. - The demand increases. - The demand. - That's right. - And it becomes even more stressful on the body to go the opposite direction. - That's right, a hundred percent. And what tends to happen for most people, and we're gonna get to the benefits of different rep speeds and why moving fast is beneficial in some cases. But the average person, when they're moving quickly or faster than they can really stabilize, what tends to stop the momentum is the joint. - Yeah. - And not the muscle. - Yeah. - It tends to be the joints and range of motion. I'm gonna tell you something, your ligaments, connective tissue, are designed to hold a certain amount of stress, but when you use those to stop momentum, you're asking for trouble. Now in extreme cases with very highly trained athletes, they've developed their bodies to be able to do this. They've trained, like Olympic lifters are phenomenal at this. Like they move very quickly to the bottom of a squat, but you take the average person, even the average trained person, and you have them, hey, do a squat like an Olympic lifter, and you're gonna hurt your knees or your back. So the injury risk alone makes this a big deal. And the problem with studies is they tend to be college-aged males, 'cause those are the kind of people that signed up for these studies. They're the ones that have time to get paid $25 a day to do a study like this. - They're pretty resilient. - And they're pretty resilient, and it's a 12-week or 16-week study. If you follow these college-aged males for two years, here, you over here move everything fast, you over here move slow, you will see a big difference in injury. And then because of that injury, well, let's measure strength and muscle. Oh, it looks like these guys over here built more muscle. Why? They didn't have to take five weeks off. - Yeah. - Because they hurt themselves. So this is important to understand. The other thing is performance and functionality, okay? So here's where different speeds make sense. What you train is what you get good at. So slow reps are safe. They build muscle as well as fast reps do. This is true. Now, Would you at some point with careful consideration want to prep practice moving quickly? Well, because if you always train slow, then you'll never be able to move fast. And now this I've experienced myself. Uh, I train very controlled. Um, you know, I follow more of a bodybuilding style of, of, uh, of strength training or powerlifting style of strength training. And I almost always train this way. And I've had experiences where I try to move fast and I hurt myself. And it wasn't because I wasn't strong. It was because I never trained to move fast. Yeah. And so this is where training fast, if you're well-trained, you've got good technique, you're considering, uh, all the things you might want to throw in some fast training because real life oftentimes calls upon speed. Uh, real life doesn't often move real slow and controlled. I mean, this is really, this created camps of thought where it's like athletes just need to stick with like fast training. And so there's whole modalities that have been creative to, address that. And obviously there's like prerequisites to get into that level of training where it's like appropriate. And, um, but at the same time, you know, there's, there's another camp where it's like, you need to build the strength. You need to have like overall ability, uh, and then add on top of that while, you know, in conjunction, you can, you can train fast, but you can also keep your strength, uh, intact alongside it. Um, but yeah, there's, that's always been kind of like in the strength conditioning world, like something that, uh, it gets argued a lot because there, there is definite value to, to training with acceleration because you know, your, your, your body, you want to be able to have access on demand and you want to be able to train that. Uh, but now, you know, the, in between both of those thoughts, it's like, okay, well, how do we do that appropriately? Well, I thought when you went performance and functionality, you were actually going to talk more about, um, okay. So we talked about when you go really fast, the risk of injury, change of directions and how, how that can be dangerous. The other, the other thing that's maybe less dangerous, but also improper or doesn't end up working the muscles that you're trying to work. For example, I can't tell you how many times I trained a client and doing a seated row or a bench press, they don't feel it in the proper muscles due to just kind of repping it out. Right? So you, the average person gets into a seated row, especially if you're a new, a new lifter, you watch a trainer or another person perform a seat row and you get in there and you just start rowing away at it. Your, your biceps end up, your arms end up taking in your shoulders, end up taking over. It's hard to change your recruitment pattern. Yeah. And, and you exactly. And then you, and you ask that person to do that with any sort of speed and tempo. And it's like, they're not going to feel that in their back and their lats at all. And so it's like that there, or bench press was another very common one. I get somebody under a bench press, they watch somebody else do it. And then they just muscle it up and push it off as much way as they can, as fast as they can. And where do they all feel it? Their triceps, their shoulders, they can't even activate their chest. And so there's a side of the tempo and slowing down too. That's not just a risk factor of like, it's like, Hey, like if the goal of this bench press is for us to work the chest and develop the chest, or the goal of this seat of row is to work the back, then also the slowing down the technique part also makes a huge difference in learning how to activate. Oh, a hundred percent. Like for targeted aesthetics, that's king. Like targeted aesthetics would be, uh, I want to develop this muscle. I want to be able to train this part of a muscle, even, uh, depending on the muscle we're talking about. And you need to go slow to do that. Uh, especially if you struggle feeling a muscle in an exercise, like if you don't feel your glutes in a squat, uh, moving fast in the squat, isn't going to make your glutes more. It's gonna make you feel them less. Yeah. It is interesting though. Cause I used to like fight that, uh, you have to train fast because if you're training and you're just getting strong, it's going to apply to the field. Uh, but at the same time I did a full year just of, of, you know, just training heavy and trying to get strong. And I did feel significantly slower because there wasn't that added element of acceleration. My training. Yeah. So someone listening might be like, well, I'm a typical average person. Uh, I'm not on the field. Why would I need to even consider this? Uh, and it's because you step off a curb, you know, you drop something, you go to grab it. Your kid runs across the street. Like you will be, uh, at some point called upon to move quickly. Uh, and you will lose that ability if you don't train it. Even if you're strong, even if you're really strong and you lift weights and you've got good muscle development, you will lose that ability. So the question is, well, how do I train that? Do I go to do a bunch of complex Olympic lifts? And it's like, no, you can do a very basic exercises and do it, uh, very carefully. Uh, so you pick a really lightweight because of the load. That's it. And the, and the, the idea isn't to feel the muscle, but rather to move, uh, kind of quickly. I mean, with a client, for example, this would be a good example of that, right? So everybody's familiar with like jump boxes, right? You jump on a box. The average person that hires a trainer is not ready to jump up on a box. Like the average 40 something year old deconditioned person. If I have them jump on a box, uh, like we're 50, 50, they're going to get hurt or not. Right. So, so what we might do is just jump. There is nothing to jump on. We're just going to jump in place and we're going to practice jumping quickly. Um, and we're not going to do it to fatigue. I'm going to practice kind of moving quickly in that way. Right. What if you, you never run? Um, and like my experience, I went to go sprint and I pulled a hamstring. It was actually a pretty severe pull. What would I do? Well, I would go run at 50% speed at first and I'd slowly work my way up to be able to run quickly so that my muscles can move fast and not just a slow. So that performance and functionality piece is, and I used to think it was important only for athletes. That's what I used to think. I said, well, that's, that's not for the average person. Average person just have them strength, hand workout, walk, and they're doing fine. Well, for aesthetics, that's true. But when it comes to performance, even the performance you need in everyday life, some speed is important. A little bit of speed is important and avoiding injury too. Yeah. So, you know, that component, I remember Joe DeFranco brought that up and it really kind of pointed it back for me. Um, you know, making sure like you're going to experience these things in life. Those are going to be like a slippery patch. There's going to be something that's going to require you to stabilize really quickly. And it's like, if you lose that ability, you're leaving us. I slipped on the floor. Like, like this was like, this was a while ago. It was like six months ago. My, I was, I was walking into, uh, we have like a, a big grand room and I'm walking into it and my wife's down the hall and I had socks on and I slipped. Now she saw me go into the room. So she thought for sure, by the way, I slipped that I bailed. Now I caught myself by the grace of God. I don't know how I caught myself. And I remember stopping after I like did this real fast myself. And I remember thinking I tore, I know I heard something and I didn't, but I felt like I would've heard something because I was so not fast. Cause I never trained that way. It was like a wake up call. Like, dude, you need to start practicing moving quickly. This is so you guys, you guys have been in my, my garage before that garage floor is unbelievably slick. And I can't tell you how many times this has already happened to me multiple times where I pull the cars in if they've been in the wet tires, get on there and you can't see the floor the way it's designed shiny. Yeah. Cause it's shiny and the design in it so that you can't see the water spots. And I have barely caught myself at least four or five times. And the last time, like I had this, like, is there a camera in there? Cause there is, there is, and I've, I've yet to go down knock on wood, but I've had this similar, like, God, like how many years until I've had this similar, like, God, like how many years until I've had this similar, like, God, like how many years until I've had this similar, like, God, until I don't catch myself. You know what I'm saying? Like I really had that thought. I thought like, dude, I really need to consider because this is exactly how it goes down. It's like something so simple as that and you lose it. Now, thank God I still have enough reaction and explosiveness to gather myself. But there's been quite a few that were really scary and I, legs were all spread out and I grabbed, and it was just like, dude, if I, my reaction time is a fraction slower on that, like I'm down and, or I'm hurting something really bad. Yeah. I mean, and you can, you can have to get complex. Uh, there are great exercises for, uh, you know, strength, strengthening or working on kind of your ability to move quickly, but you could pick basic, like you could take a bench press. Let's say you're good at a bench press. You feel stable. You practice it all the time. You train it. You're good at it. And let's say you normally bench press with 135 pounds. You could put 70 pounds on the bar and practice, uh, you know, moving it quickly, uh, where you come down and then explode it off your chest. And so that, that would, that would train that kind of speed. Yeah. You could do it with a row. You could do it with the press. You could do it with a lunge. You could jump in place. Um, and all that you're doing is training your muscles so that they can move quickly. And that's important. I would argue that the jump box is probably the best and the most foundational of all those though, just because, or at least from the position I'm coming from of what, cause the jump box requires the entire body to communicate. Yeah. Right. So bench press would, you can, you can totally triple extension. Yes. And so jumping even off of a box. Right. Right. Getting everything to fire through from head to toe, uh, quickly like that and organized. Um, I think covers a lot, which is so funny. I never thought about that as a trainer, like, like early days, it was like, I took it for granted. I took it for granted. I could move when I wanted to. Yeah. There's a lot of exercise like that. You're like, Oh, this is the real value of it. You know? Yeah, for sure. Like, cause it's, it's simple. Uh, and it's, it's a skill, but like, you're like, I'm not trying to like fatigue my client, you know, in these workouts. And I kind of abandoned it. For a long time. But then you come back and you're like, well, let's do it without fatigue and let's, let's do this correctly. Yeah. Quickly. And there's value. yeah a couple hacks for people listening who aren't familiar with like trying to move quickly or whatever you know i just mentioned doing basic exercises but bands are really good bands are really good at trying to move quickly because you don't have a lot of momentum like you will with weights uh they're very safe a pool if you have access to a swimming pool this is a very safe way to move quickly because if i throw my arm out in the air i have to also slow it down but in the pool the water slows it down yeah and it gives me a little bit of resistance joint impact either very low yeah so those are just some some hacks you know another thing that they that studies tend to not cover is the novelty effect uh and the reason why they don't is because in order to show how great novelty or something new can affect the body in terms of progress you have to have a really long study you know 16 weeks doesn't cut it six months might not even cut it you need to have like a year or two years where you're taking people through rep ranges or rep speeds and you can compare this group over here does the same exact rep range for two years this group over here alternates and what you'll see which we've experienced with clients is novelty makes a difference it does now it takes a long time to see what that looks like uh but it does make a difference and so even for hypertrophy i'm going to argue we take out the injury risk because i think that's the big one but take that out for a second if you throw in different rep speeds over time i think you'll build more muscle even if you take out the injury risk just because of the novelty well didn't you see that when you were doing that you're not going to be able to do that you're not going to be able to do that you're not doing overhead press i remember we had you doing some um like push presses push presses instead oh yeah and just just that acceleration alone like sparked a new stimulus well there was two things i got from the push press big time that i helped which i when we talk a lot especially lately we talk a lot about like the isometric component was pushing that much weight explosively over my head and then stabilizing it and holding it up there i got this that's why i'm like such a big fan of the of the for shoulder development for even my my bodybuilder aesthetic people you want to build some shoulders uh heavy push presses and then like stabilizing the weight over your head like that we're like game changing i'll tell you what uh our program maps strong uh the reason why that's so popular especially which is funny this was totally not predictable we didn't predict this but women love map strong because it really develops the posterior chain the back and the glutes a lot so women are like i love this program my back and my butt never look better there's speed stuff in there and the work sessions it's like like high poles and stuff like that so yeah you know if you've practiced and you've trained for a while you've never done that style of training that novelty effect kicks in man suddenly you see new development oh yeah you know it's great you know since you're uh kind of bagging on studies a little bit did you i was bagging on a study this weekend did you uh did you see the rant i did on the instagram no uh so i i you know the the team has been trying to really encourage me to uh instead of just doing our shooting days that we do where we do content and everything like that um like hey when you have those out on those moments where you have something on your mind just like grab the camera and just and then send it to us and then we'll we'll decide if it's yeah yeah if it's appropriate yeah yeah yeah right we'll clean it up a little bit uh so so i said okay i so i was like kind of committed to them that i would try and do that so this past weekend uh so something had popped in my head and of course it's because it's something i'm i'm in the middle of doing and um i was up i was up doing fasted cardio and as i'm doing it i'm like thinking about it like oh you know this is so there's no difference for fat law yeah yeah study show and and you know i i started thinking about as i'm walking i'm like how funny is this here i am doing something that you know the fitness community is for a while now has debunked uh you know the science around that that mechanistically there's nothing happening or magically happening in the body that makes it burn more body fat by doing fasted cardio versus regular cardio and if all things are controlled macros this is cardio like you haven't eaten in the morning you do cardio versus you ate breakfast and then did that's right that's the old thought was fast it burns more fat yeah i did studies like no it doesn't yes and so and so the rant that i kind of went off on is like you know you've obviously probably heard that fasted cardio has been debunked and it's this and it's that i said yet every bodybuilder women's women's bikini and men's physique athlete still uses it uh religiously to get ready for a stage and compete at the highest level so why is that and i was like that's because it works but maybe not for the reasons that we've touted for so long and the things that were going through my mind because i'm back into practicing that and i would argue i i drop an extra two to three percent body fat by just implementing this one strategy and the things that i notice are one uh if i've decided tomorrow morning i'm getting up to do fasted cardio i've got to already think about that tonight yeah go to bed early because i gotta go about it i gotta go to bed early uh i gotta set my alarm an hour early because if i gotta go to work and do my thing that i normally do and i'm gonna do it before i eat and before work i'm not getting up an hour i wasn't getting up now so now i'm up an hour earlier so right away there's an additional hour that i'm up earlier than i would normally be and i'm not just up i'm actually doing something very physical you're moving i'm moving my body i'm getting blood pumping so what else happens when i do that well i notice also after i do that the rest of the day i'm far more active i move faster i move more often which ends up being a lot more calories burned throughout the entire day and not to mention after i've done all that too the way i am planned for my day eating wise i also tend to do this when i do fasted cardio i've already i'm already kind of going i tend to delay the first meal already since i did just did that and so i shortened the eating window and when you're in a calorie deficit trying to lose body fat it helps it helps to like it's a couple more hours i'm not thinking about food because i'm moving or i'm doing something else all these factors play into a incredible strategy to help leaning out and yeah because we've nailed down in a study that if we compare but it's like in real life that's not that's right that's right because what they do in studies and this is just how you conduct a study so i'm not crapping on studies when you do a study you control everything you possibly can to isolate the one action to see if it makes a difference but in real life all the other things are not controlled okay so in other words another good example is um if you replace your sugary drinks with uh artificially sweetened zero calorie drinks you'll lose weight and you will if you control all the other calories but in real life then this never happens well why is that because people end up making up the calories and other places that's right and so waking up first thing to do cardio you named a few things that you identified with your behavior and there's other things that we probably don't even know yeah with behavior that change like if i'm up and i'm working out first thing my mind is already set to fitness that's right health it's already priorities are there and so in real life things aren't perfectly controlled you're not saying yourself i'm going to do all the other stuff i do you change all the other stuff you do so in practice it tends to help and that's why people tend to tend to i mean it's it's like for me personally it's a huge difference like if i start my day where i roll out a bit normal time and like today would be a day i didn't do faster car today so it's like i move slow until that third energy drink kicks in and we've had lunch we've done like like really it doesn't start really kicking up till afternoon time when we go on our walk and then i get a workout in and then now i'm like so when i look at my steps and calories burned for the first part of the day it's very and then flip that i got up an hour earlier and it started moving really early like i'm like moving all morning i'm moving i'm more productive and so man by the by time noon when i'm just barely kind of getting i've already and then to your point too about it set the tone that i'm like i'm fitness minded and health minded right out the gates so i'm also more likely to make a better food choice because i'm like already i don't want to why would i want to throw away that extra hour got up early to do that on a bad meal right now and you also woke up and decided to do something hard and what that does for the dopamine serotonin like reward pathways in the brain set you up to do more hard things the rest of the day it actually improves your discipline yes later in the day and that's what the data shows i think that's what the data shows i think that's what the data shows i think that's it's it's so valuable that's why it's like it's like go on my phone and scroll social media versus like read a book that like that's right which is my life they'll show that makes differences right right for the same reasons no it's it's it's a huge difference and i and i when at the end of the rant i said listen i don't think this is a um a lifestyle thing that you do forever all the time uh if you're not a morning person and that's not like i get it because i'm not you know but hey you're you're getting ready for a trip in a couple weeks and you're trying to lean out a little bit it's a don't change anything else get up an hour earlier do that for the next two to three weeks before you get there i guarantee you'll see a two to three percent drop in body fat by simply doing that and it's because of all those other cascading effects that that are not that we control in a study yeah but that happens behaviorally to us which is extremely valuable when you're talking about creating good habits and behaviors for the client and so such a fan of it and so anyways i posted that today or yesterday it was because i was on right i i just i just i just looked up some some really interesting market data um on the electrolyte market and how much it's changed in like the last eight years you guys are gonna be blown away really how much has changed i'll pull this up well i mean i have a pretty good guess considering that i didn't even know an electrolyte brand so just ten years ago i'm gonna i'm gonna say this right now one hundred percent yeah i like that that's about it so one hundred percent the the powder - Powder you add to water electrolyte market. 'Cause Gatorade's been around for a long time and that would be included in the electrolyte market or whatever and that's been pretty stable okay but the like i add this powder to my water to get electrolyte that market element uh first off uh started it off and are responsible uh in my strong opinion for the growth of it trip off this so in 10 in the last 10 years ago basically didn't exist basically didn't exist it has gone up several hundred percent element alone so element alone in 2020 was seven million dollars 2023 206 million dollars element alone now element so we work with element and here's why they did here's why they had such a big impact electrolyte powders or drinks i should say were number one everybody was afraid of sodium sodium is a bad guy you need to have low sodium don't have too much sodium the only people that were consciously trying to add sodium 10 15 20 years ago uh to their diets were endurance runners why because they experienced the effects of not having enough sodium so if you if you're a runner cyclist like you do any kind of endurance sport and you weren't consciously adding a lot of sodium to your diet you experienced this you know this you pushed yourself and you just crashed and somebody smart said dude you need to add some salt to your diet and watch what happens so they were really the only ones that were doing it and element came out and said hey we have an electrolyte powder you add your water thousand milligrams of sodium very brave this would be like me coming out with a saturated fat supplement yeah like if i came out with a supplement here's 30 grams of stigma alone it was like wow it's that's surprising but yeah obviously it's effective thousand milligrams of sodium so when we when they first sent us the box years ago i kind of dismissed them until i looked at the box and went whoa yeah these guys know what and they're not afraid to let's see what happens and they crushed and so that market has exploded because people number two reasons number one if you eat a whole food based diet you adding sodium probably will make a difference if you're low carb for sure it makes a difference if you work out really hard sweat a lot it does make a big difference you can tell right away and then here's a second reason reason sodium is one of the main components or say i'll say salt and palatability and so here they made a drink and they made a drink and they made a drink and they made a drink that is not artificially sweetened with no sugar normally when you drink a flavored drink that's flavored with stevia it's not it's not that good yeah it just isn't like you're drinking yeah it's all right i prefer sucralose or aspartame uh you know because it just tastes better you know sevilla but you throw a thousand milligrams of sodium on top of it and element tastes it's as palatable as soda yeah and so they just crushed and ran with it and they literally created this market that has exploded several hundred percent it's so good isn't that wild oh it's so good how big of a growth that they saw i mean all of my friends all my friends they look they drink it they just everybody yeah they like it i mean i think that's where they hit it they hit the obviously the point you're making with the science and and the first people to actually put out what is effective but i mean it's because it tastes good that's right yeah it's if you make a supplement that works that also tastes good someone that that works that's good for you and it tastes good it's just like uh because i have plenty of people in my family that are not like hardcore fitness people and don't necessarily need an extra thousand milligrams of sodium because they're not they like that it tastes good but they love it i know yeah and it's a it's a they know that it's a better choice than drinking some soda or some some other crap 100 well i figure they're doing good because that every time i'll see one of our partners all of a sudden like on mainstream tv a commercial i'm like oh wow yeah i've seen them and i've seen viory but yeah theirs it was cool because uh it reminded me i'm already in the thought process of going to this metal festival and there was this guy like welding and doing this crazy stuff at this place it's called sloss furnace fest it's like these like huge it's old uh furnace like um structures and whatever but like anyways i i got me all excited to go into this festival i'm like my one time a year where i just like let it all out that's coming isn't it yeah when it's in october last time you went in the mosh pit didn't you lay someone out yeah you're gonna do that again aren't you well it depends i mean the guy kind of i don't know he kind of provoked it so is your group is your whole group going again because i think i heard you talking about some of your guys some of the guys aren't coming through no no it's only going to be me and one of my friends like the other guys had to kind of drop off which is a bummer but and that's why i was going back and forth of going or not but i'm like dude when you guys have one thing all year you look forward to and you're like this is kind of like my thing nobody else's gets it yeah this is totally like nobody else understands it nobody like you know i can't like really describe it in words for anybody else to like you know feel that but this is like it's like a really small community and then you you know you just get to like let all your freaking like rage out at once it's great and it's safe you know that's it it's hard uh you know we sal talks about the the research around um how important it is for men to have other relationships and things like that right but it's it's tough to get a group of dudes that are all in their 40s all together and organized like it's like it's a it's a big deal dude it's not especially a trip yeah yeah yeah fly somewhere yeah that's a big ask and they and the other guys to their credit they have like four kids you know it's like so me and my other friend we had two kids it's a little easier to maneuver uh but what's cool i've met quite a few along the way now where one of my other friends is a podcast but he's going to be there uh so it'll be cool he's doing the podcast like behind the scenes uh with some of the bands and stuff so it'll be cool to kind of see oh that is cool do you notice just because your boys now are old enough to where they can watch himself was there a major uptick for you and courtney in getting away and doing stuff compared to the previous like did you notice a huge difference or has it been the same to do our own kind of yeah just yeah period like you'd be able to get away i mean when you when the kids are when they're little it's hard yeah it's hard you know so it's and it can also be hard though when they're teenagers and they have all kinds of things yeah that's why i'm asking that's why i'm asking because i think there's this assumption that oh they get to a certain age and then now you have all this freedom as a parent and it's like they got things in the house yeah because we're constantly like shuttling them i mean ethan getting his license is going to help a lot big time you know and so we're looking forward to that but it's we're still very involved in so yeah i haven't i've had maybe a few opportunities still to like plan something where i could like go do something with my buddies the hardest part about the the kids getting their license so nowadays is that they're not allowed to drive with it like so like you can't like when i as soon as i was 16 and even i had friends so i'm young right so i had friends that were older older than i was and so by my i think end of freshman or sophomore year i think the end of freshman eric got his so it was like into freshman to sophomore year i already had friends that had license and so picking me up taking me to school if i didn't go so like my parents would call your friend yeah call your buddy yeah you know so like i like quickly i could get around even when i didn't even have my license because but kids now they can't even they can't drive until they're what 8 21 or you can't drive your friends around until you're 18. i think it's 21. maybe maybe these kids get around that though they're not like following that they don't but i'm pretty i'm like but like hang out after school and they'll get rides from their friends they just end up doing it yeah like it's for safety obviously i get why they do that i mean when i if i think back to driving with my friends in the car at 16. that's when we drove the dumbest yeah you got your buddies yeah that's the most dangerous time uh to to be driving i've been speaking of like relationships and stuff i'm reading this book with my wife it's an old book and i don't realize it's been around for a while it's called love and respect have you guys heard this book so it's really good it's for marriage it is based off of uh the book of ephesians ephesians 5 but it's totally it's totally human psyche male and female psyche i mean it matches up with the data as well but it talks about how what women need and desire the most is to feel loved and what men desire and need the most is to feel respected yeah and it talks about unconditional respect and unconditional love and what's interesting about that and the author talks about this if i say uh uh you know yeah you you should show your wife unconditional love nobody bats an eye but if you say hey you need to display to your husband unconditional respect people are like he needs to earn it yeah it's like well he says this in the book too like imagine if they said the reverse like well actually you need to earn his love everybody's like no he's like it doesn't mean that you don't criticize or you don't do certain things or talk about things that are unloving but you say them you display them in a way that's loving or in a way that's respectful and it's a really um interesting book and it makes a lot of sense and it talks he mentions this he calls it the crazy cycle where let's say a wife brings something to her husband and he perceives it as being uh disrespectful so now he withdraws he doesn't want to show her love now she feels he's not loving so now she disrespects him and then he shows her less and it goes it spins out of control and he talks about how to interrupt that and what to do and it's really good it's a and it totally speaks like i'm listening to you i'm listening to you i'm listening to you i'm listening to you you're listening to what he's saying about men yeah and i'm like oh my god that is a hundred percent true there's a lot more that is a hundred percent true uh and now the part for my wife she agrees like that's that's totally true it's a really good book well that this reminds me of our interview that we had with adam lane smith that's why it's one of my favorite interviews to recommend to couples was it was when i think back to the all the different people we've had and the things that like i've taken into our marriage and stuff and the ability for me to well obviously having him say it was it was super helpful right and for her to listen to the podcast with me and that kind of click was that uh we i don't need any respect yeah and she needs love and so that when we get in these situations where it's just like i'm the other person is thinking that that's all you need or what you're seeking it's like that's not what i'm seeking at all and like he so he's just a great example because he says that we we basically have different filters we hear things differently we communicate things differently and we you know what we're trying to communicate comes across the wrong way he's just a great example i thought it was hilarious if a woman says i have nothing to wear what she means is i have nothing new when a man says i have nothing to wear it's because he's got nothing clean yeah and it's just an example of like the way we'll communicate things yeah yeah that and how different oh it's a silly one obviously yeah yeah but i mean what he was saying in there was so uh absolutely true and i think if you're if you're trying to come together to understand that about each other and to present yourself you know in that way you'll get away you'll get along um so much better and so much more effectively but it is true like um you know it says in again it's biblical but again it's backed by you can look at the data to support this um it's uh it's it's it's so true like if when men communicate to each other um there's a code of respect there because there's always a threat of violence or whatever yeah so if you and i are talking and you withdraw you're actually doing the honorable thing because you're like okay i'm gonna walk out yeah because i know where this is gonna go yeah so that's kind of like a default yeah when you do that with your wife she's like he is so unloving he doesn't care he just shut down when he's actually doing kind of this this default yeah which i think is really interesting no no it's such an interesting it was such it's such a good well i remember we uh this was guy when we lived out in marina and this was right around the first time we had adam and smith one of the one of the challenges that katrina had in our relationship was that she loved uh coming home and debating or challenging direction in the company right like or something that you know i i would just do this is what we're doing well what's something like that and she's like well why or and she would push back and do that and early on in the relationship well we would we go back and forth a lot as as things progressed and the business got bigger and there was so many different moving parts it's just like for me it became like a speed thing and i remember that was one of the first big hurdles that we had with working together like that was i told her i was like man i just i just need you to respect my decision like we've i i think i've proven to you that i know what i'm doing right by now and she's like it's not about that at all she goes i love this part of our relationship i love that i see how your brain works and i see how this and i and i want and so that's really and so there was this huge disconnect she something she thinks she's being loving yes meanwhile you feel disrespected and i feel disrespected it's like dude how much more i gotta prove that i know what i'm doing you know what's interesting challenging me yeah you know what's interesting about that adam and i'm sure i know the answer but if she uh displays respect when she's coming to you about something she has more influence so if it wasn't so if it wasn't for adam and smith i don't know if i would have had the proper way to do it i don't know if i would have had the proper way to communicate it and and and get through that and we had and so it really helped me i was like listen i don't want to take that from you that because you like that i love that you like that and i respect your this and that but how you say it and open it makes all the world a difference like if you said it in a way where it's like oh interesting what why are you thinking that way or what's your thoughts on that different like yeah like because because then you're giving me the respect that you don't aren't disagreeing with my decision in the in the business or whatever like that but you're curious because you say you want to see how my brain works and i'll map it all out to you it's not like i just make a decision willy-nilly it's like i've already thought miles ahead and i just don't want to have to argue over something like that i'm like so if you just approach it with that curiosity of oh that's interesting i would have never thought you were going to do that what what makes you think that's a good idea for the business and you ask me like that i would love to have that and that should have more influence that's what's funny about that it's like someone listening to that right now is like well you just got to grow up and be more mature like don't be so child and it's like like and by the way that it can also be done on the reverse well don't be so sensitive right like you get your feelings hurt so much you know i love you and so it's like street it's denying that we're different yeah it's like why we're different yeah and communicate with each other in ways that the other person needs yeah you know what it says in the bible which is funny so again it's homogenous thing again it's biblical so i'm going to go back to that the word that it uses for husbands when it comes to loving their wives because it says we need to love them in an understanding way but the word it uses in greek is agape so there's four there's different words they use for love in the greek language we just use love in the english language to mean like five i love pizza i love my kids i love my partners obviously it's all different but we just use one word in the greek language they used different words so agape is sacrificial love uh filio i think is the kind of love you have for your child and a friend it only tells husbands to have agape love it doesn't say that to wives you're like why wouldn't say it to wives i think they're built for that sacrifice they're built that it's automatic it's automatic for a good woman she loves herself so sacrificially for her kids and for her family what it tells a wife is to respect because it's not automatic it's not an automatic thing and for a husband agape is not automatic we're commanded to display that you know and he makes that case and i'm listening to him like i think this is right you know take take the the biblical stuff out and i think we've done such a disservice uh as americans to to make love as this all-encompassing word yeah i mean i remember as it means as a young as a young kid uh assuming that that love was this feeling that was going to overcome me and that's how i was going to know that that's the one i'm married like that like literally like the way what disney is presented to all of us yeah like oh it's love at first sight it's oh this feeling that you get and it's like no it's an action and something i have to choose to do that was sometimes it's a feeling that's that was exactly it can be but the one that you're going to decide to marry for the rest of your life that's a choice that you make and that's something that you choose to do every single day it's not this feeling that you decide that you wake up all of a sudden like oh i don't feel it anymore therefore like oh we're not supposed no we're not we're not supposed to be married anymore it's like we did such a disservice i feel like of making it all this one word versus having definitions of all the different types like that because i'm honest like it was years i was in into my mid to late 20s before that click for me that that's not what a loving marriage looks like it's not this oh i'm just supposed to have this overwhelming feeling and that's the one and it's it's perfect no that's not it i mean yeah me and courtney it's like hers is it's love and safety it's like what yes you know i can provide so she feels that sense of security safety and like you know health and everybody's healthy and accounted for uh and for me it's always been you know respect honor and trust you know and so it's and and we've learned how to really nail that down and figure out like we are different we have these roles we have like i'm stretching she's pulling like and we're great balance but it took a long time to figure out how to do it and i'm like i'm stretching to get there in that understanding yeah you want to get uh you want to get your husband to drag himself across glass for you you tell him you're my warrior you go out there and kill it and i'm telling you right now most good men will hear that and they'll be like oh yeah i'm gonna do whatever i can for this family even saying that now i guarantee men are listening and they're going yes and it's just the way we're made and it's such it's so crazy that we try so hard to go against that and to twist things to say no no you got to understand things what i do and if you don't it's because you're x y and z and it's like this is just not how we're made yeah and it's like we'll work so much better when we understand this about each other and it is a choice it totally is a choice yeah anyway i uh we we got um so i meet with our customer service team weekly and they often will tell me what people are writing in and requesting in terms of things to cover yeah okay and so we do a lot of episodes on nutrition you know protein intake macros that kind of stuff and so we've had vegans write in and say can you do a whole episode on uh you know the challenges with nutrition for vegans and what vegans need to do and this and that and maybe we'll do that uh at some point but i i want to kind of cover a little bit here which is that vegans it's hard to eat a healthy diet that supports you know your goals performance muscle growth let's say fat loss endurance all those things it that's hard it's already hard very challenging uh going vegan makes it harder but this is just a fact it just makes it harder not saying don't be a vegan if you have your reasons for it you can do it it requires a lot more planning than not being vegan so when i'm not vegan if i stick to whole natural foods uh and i hit my protein targets unless i have some weird uh you know polymorphism uh i don't need to plan that much more if i'm not like crazy overeating it's whole natural foods protein i'm lifting weights working out like i'm gonna do pretty good if you cut out uh animal sources of uh calories you place yourself at a higher risk for nutrient deficiencies the data is very clear on this uh and it's much harder to hit your protein targets it just is the amount of volume of vegan foods whole natural foods to hit what is what the data has shown to be for most people there's always individual variants for optimal protein intake for muscle growth and fat loss and performance is really hard you gotta get a lot of food it takes up a lot it's like a big bowl of all kinds of different things and then you're eating tons of other things fibers and carbohydrates and stuff like that and so what I'll tell vegans is this, uh, supplements are not required, but for vegans, uh, it's not required, but it's almost required. So in my, I've trained a lot of vegans, I've trained a lot of like hardcore vegans. And, uh, we had to use supplements and we had to use protein powders in particular, uh, in order to really optimize their progress and doing it without protein powders in my experience, uh, was all but impossible. So it was like, you know, and typically they would add like a hundred grams of protein, uh, from a vegan. It was, for me, it was always impossible unless you didn't have building muscle goals. If you had goals to build muscle, all my clients did. So that's why it was impossible. And the reason why I say that, cause there's some, I was smiling as you were saying this, because there's, there's like three people out of the millions of people that listen that always go like, I don't know what you're talking about, Sal. It's so easy. I have no problem with it. It's like, Not for you, but you know, most people is going to fight for it. No, most people it's, it's, I mean, no, uh, restrictive diet is challenging for most people to get their protein in on a regular basis. All of them. You, you pull out, uh, animal products that becomes extremely difficult, extremely difficult. Yep. A hundred percent. So, you know, uh, or I'll say this cause we work with them. We makes the best plant-based protein I've ever used. It's the best. It's the easiest to digest. It tastes the best. They combine different sources. That has to be the biggest factor, right? Yes. The digestion. Yes. I mean, like if you're doing the whole food thing is great, but like, you know, on the vegan diet, like if you're going for protein sources, like how much can you really ingest? That's not going to give you gastro distress. I mean, I mean that and taste, cause I think it's hard to make that taste good. Oh, vegan proteins are the worst tasting. They are, they are always. Organifies tastes good for any protein. It's not just good for a vegan protein. It's good for any protein. Yeah. They've done a phenomenal job and they mix different vegan sources to give you a better amino acid profile. Uh, and you may hear this, uh, you might've heard this before as a vegan, like combined protein sources to make a quote unquote complete protein. What they're really saying is, uh, there are limiting amino acids for something called muscle protein synthesis. So this is where muscle protein synthesis is that how we measure muscle growth. And if you're low in certain key amino acids, especially leucine, you can have a lot of protein. But the leucine will limit, uh, the protein synthesis that can happen. And so combining different sources of, uh, vegan, uh, proteins like Organifi has done this really well. You'll have a good amino acid profile, so it's the best. It's diverse. Yeah. So if you're a vegan and you're trying to, first of all, protein powders are valuable for most people anyway, cause it's hard to hit those optimal, you know, amounts of protein. But if you're a vegan, like Organifi is the best hands down. I've used lots of vegan proteins cause I couldn't have dairy for a long time. So vegan was what I went with and Organifi kills it by far. It's the best one. You guys excited about, um, Friday's pickleball tournament? I'm not gonna do that. I'm not doing the pickleball game. Yes you are bro. Yes. Bro, you were built for pickleball. Yep. I'm serious. What? You are built for pickleball. Tell me more. You will be, you'll be hella good. You're like Mr. Carnival. It's the closest thing to a carnival game. It's the closest sport to a carnival game as you can think of. Really? Yes. Okay. It is totally like that. You're getting me there, dude. You don't gotta move laterally very much. You know, it's like, you don't have to go any explosive. It is like, it is carnival game all day. So who's, who are the, so Kyle apparently is really good. He's like the best one, right? I think Cole's probably good. I think Cole's good. Yeah, Cole's good in everything. I'll determine that when I see him. Cole's our, Cole's our, our. He's Captain America. Yeah, he is our little. It's all, it still has to be better than, remember when we used to play with the trainers like softball? That was embarrassing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I was actually really let down cause everybody's in great shape. Yeah. But we're terrible athletes. Yeah, we're gym, we're gym athletes. Totally different. There's a few in the mix. You didn't play. Did you play on my team where, where we, where I got, where I got crushed by the, the junior college teams? Did you play on that team? You didn't play on that team. Oh, I didn't play on that team. Have you heard me tell the story? Yeah. Where are we? It was the first time. So I'm, I'm only, I've only been living in the Bay area at this point. I don't know, maybe I've gotta be less than five years, probably around year three of living in the Bay area. So I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm new to, to living in the Bay area. To living in a big city. I come from like small town, right. And you know, my, I, I still, at this time, I'm still connected to all my buddies I grew up with. And I got some of them that live this direction and I got some new friends over here. They're all like kind of ex-athlete guys and stuff and trainers and people like that are connected. All fit, all fit. All consider ourselves athletic. Playing, playing, playing in our first men's softball league. And I remember when we're signing up, I forget the way they were. I don't know how to rank them, you know, but just say, let's just say for easy people, it's just like A, B, C, D, A being the best or whatever. And we're like, well, let's, it's our first year. So let's not put us at A, you know, so let's like, let's put us at B, but listen, when we play our, we're talking about how we play the first game, like, let's not go out there and just destroy everybody. So we like, so we look, you know, we get kicked out of that league or like that, like, let's take it easy or whatever. We're getting so fucked up. Yeah. It was like, it was the first or second inning. It was like right away. And it's like 13, zero. And I remember like huddled everybody, like, Hey, you guys, we could start playing now. And everyone's like, I am, I am, we got, we got absolutely destroyed. And then we thought, man, maybe we just walked into a buzz saw as a first game. And it's like, maybe that was, maybe that's going to be the champion team and we got it. We got to get it. You knocked this dust off. We get the second game. And we ended up playing. And, uh, at that time it was, I forget what the, the junior college is over here. Uh, west, west, west, west valley, west valley, uh, the, the junior college baseball team is playing, you know, on like for fun for funsies. Oh yeah. And they're up like 21, zero on us, the team. And they're like talking shit to each other, have fun. The guys are all getting up and they're batting oppo. Every guy's, every guy's batting oppo on purpose, you know, so it's still hitting home runs on us. It was like, oh, oh, it was so embarrassing, dude. I've never been so embarrassed. That's such a nice, humbling moment, dude, such a humbling moment, all acting like don't play too good. Yeah. You can't even, you can't even score. Hey, I, I got, I got a, I got a new twist to the con to the AI conspiracy. Oh God. What's next? What's next? So, so did you see that? The anthropic guy stepped down. Anthropic, open AI CEOs, both of them came out like we need to pause, we need to slow things down. Yeah. We're not going to go public now. They're going to pause. I think they're going to delay the IPO. The IPO. Yeah. They're like, this is too dangerous. Like we gotta be careful type of deal. Then I heard, I heard an alternate, uh, presentation of this and I thought, am I gonna like it? You're going to love this. Oh good. You're going to love this bro. Come on, let's go. And I know this for a fact. This is what companies do in emerging markets. They always do this. The leading companies in an emerging market will come out, do something incredible. And they will then work with the government to regulate the hell out of the market to prevent anybody from competing. Okay. And so I think what they're trying to do in the herd, what they're, what they're doing is because so they can block everybody else, they're trying to get everybody scared enough to be like, please regulate this into oblivion. The CEOs of this company will love it because they're the help. They'll help write the regulation, making it very difficult for competitors. Average person's going to be like, yes, please. Uh, cause we're scared. And um, and that, and then the other part of that is that they're not making as much money as they say they are. And so they, this will help them, you know, by getting that government support type of deal. I'm sold on that. I'm so sold on that. That's that's so likely, you know, it's, you know, it's not believable to me is when I see these videos of the robot doing your laundry. Right. And we're all afraid it's going to kill us. It's like this robot can't fold laundry of a t-shirt faster than frigging 30 minutes. And you guys think it's going to destroy all of us like, well, so here's why this supports my earlier theory. If they want hardcore regulatory capture. Yeah. I mean, this is just a, a rogue AI that turns down, that shuts off the grid that gets us all scared. I think that's an incredible conspiracy theory and probably not a conspiracy theory. Absolutely. The plan, because historically that's what all these companies do. Yeah. The U there it's first to get there. And then the first one. Hey guys, we, I know we need to, we need to, let's work with the government. We need to make this safer. Yes. Now it's impossible. By the way, that, that is the, that's the oldest game in every book. Like it's not just AI technology. Yeah. It's like, you see this fear mongering. It's like, you see this in hair salons, you see this, they're trying to do it in the personal training side where they were trying to get all the minimum you had that certification to do certain member. Yeah. It's always every industry, you know, and it's always the person who's already established and got their business up and running and making tons of money. And they want to be the ones that help come in to help everybody and make sure it's safe and done well. It's like, get out of here. Yeah. Cause China came out and said, this is fear mongering. We're not going to slow down. You guys are totally, you know, trying to fear monger everybody. Yeah. Yeah. I just think in, in, uh, what's his name? David Sacks did this great post on it and he said, you know, if you're making a product that you think will kill 10 people, you stop because you know, you're going to get sued out of existence or you don't want to be responsible, let alone 10 million people. Yeah. So if you think it's dangerous, just stop. Yeah. You don't need to, you don't need to go to the government to pass these laws that make everybody stop unless what you're trying to do is be the big dog and make sure nobody else can compete. You know, type of deal. I think all that. I mean, and again, and back to my point is, is all of the conversation and all of this just keeps the. it at the top of the news and that's all we're talking about right now and that's where the money is flowing and that's and i think the the combination of that with what you're saying makes total sense to me and it's not that we're i'm telling you guys right now it's going to be the this is going to be the biggest uh and again i'm going to get hate for this because uh it would be like me saying at the beginning of the dot-com era that it's going to be this biggest letdown of what's going to happen and and everybody would be like well look what dot-com is of course no but they don't remember the dot-com bubble yeah exactly and that we are in that same thing and it's it is gonna change the way we do things for the next 20 30 years but it's way overhyped but yeah it's way overhyped and probably looks nothing like what you all think it looks right it probably looks totally different well it's interesting that video you sent me where they're talking about the the ai agents yeah and like themselves yeah they clone themselves but it's self-regulatory still yeah so it's like you know they they were like reporting on the other agents so that was way they could compete and so they have like a cycle where um you know after a few months it's like they either they either stay and they clone them or they delete them and so it's like this this kind of like natural uh competition amongst them anyways where it thins it out well in that particular which i thought was well made it was really cool like movie that someone made that was really cool but the one part that i'm like okay i don't understand essentially what happened was this guy uh took all these agents and said hey uh at the end of the day whoever makes the least amount of money i'm going to cut 40 40 of you will get deleted and then whoever does the best i'm going to clone you and we're going to continue down this path and so what it turns into are eventually ais you know shutting each other down and and figuring out that lying makes them more money and then eventually creating their own countries and fighting with each other but i'm like wouldn't they just all hey let's all work together like if they're that logical why would they create a war why wouldn't they collaborate and expand yeah so that that part uh i also don't i also i've seen a lot of creators online post these these videos of i programmed this thing to make me all this money and it just sits and i've yet to meet somebody who's doing that and i feel like if someone would figure that out the scalability with ai should be infinite and so we should have these overnight billionaires popping up all over the place if you could program an ai to work the stock market to do all the things that these these creators are creating and then you could program an ai to work the stock market to do all the things claiming that they they've done then why don't we have all these because it's it's infinite scalability of it what's to stop you if you have one agent what's to tell me from having a thousand agents a thousand agents making a thousand dollars i mean it's just it's if what we're really in is a is a cold war we're really in an ai cold war uh between you know major countries on who can get there faster who can make the better one uh the the you know you guys remember the hugging face uh debacle or whatever happened where the ai consumers three see right through all this stuff though that's the thing like it's like this is fluff like you're selling me you're gonna have your agent like like buy a bunch of stuff off of alibaba and then try and reflip it and do it like you know it's it's all just garbage and people people aren't interested in garbage dude like it's so it's it's already kind of filtering itself out well the hacking potential is interesting to me but i then i guess the the check and balance would be the other countries have ais that would combat it so i don't know i think it's it's interesting it's powerful which makes it scary do i trust it more this is the real question and we'll just look like historically is it better that the government controls it or is it better that the market controls it no historically markets probably safer not saying it's perfect yeah but governments don't really have the best uh track record of controlling very powerful is it ever good that the government controls it is that ever i mean there's i think some regulations are important uh but factory safety yeah protocols maybe but i don't know like is it better that they that they're like hey guys we're gonna make it safe we'll control all of it right like wait a minute i don't know if i trust you guys there's a lot of fuckery though so i'm definitely not on that camp it is interesting so just fun to watch and see what happens hey we just released a new maps workout program called maps abs and butt now it is a full body workout program but the emphasis ninety percent of the training volume is to target the abs and the butt you want a nice round butt you want abs that show this is the program for you and because it's brand new it's forty percent off so you can get it for forty percent off we're also going to throw in another free maps workout program muscle mommy fifteen or muscle mommy we're also going to throw in more stuff we're going to throw in the butt building diet guide and a supplement guide so we get all that free stuff plus forty percent off this brand new maps program go to maps abs and butt.com and then use the code launch back to the show our first caller is matilda from singapore matilda welcome back hey how are you guys good how you doing good good so it turns out you were right i got my period exactly one month after i talked to you so yeah very happy and i got it regularly ever since so that's very happy yeah success good job thank you um yeah i just have two questions from now i'm still eating roughly about 2700 calories and i keep gaining weight quite quickly i gain about one pound a week um so how would you recommend to reverse back from there and get off tracking calories because i know that one of my bad habits is to under eat so tracking is actually good for me in some circumstances to make sure i'm eating enough but i don't want to do it forever so yeah first question about diet well let's back up for a second so when you started on this uh this path of trying to regain your period one of the things you did was increase your calories and reduce like a stressful exercise stressful exercise what was your weight when you started that journey and then where it was your weight when your period came back uh so my weight i think was about 53 kilos when i started and i ended up at 63 so i gained 10 kilos okay so 22 pounds yeah okay and that's when the period came back was when you got to that weight okay um all right so what i would say and you're still seeing weight gain from when you got your period back yes it's one pound i think you cut out one pound per week per week yeah approximately yeah okay okay so i think we're okay to scale back on the calories just a little though yeah because even one pound if you're strength she's strength training still too i mean are you that's what i was gonna ask you how is your strength uh any changes in the gym do you feel like i'm getting stronger yeah yeah i would barely pull back maybe down to 2500 calories maybe 2500 calories and that's it yeah yeah yeah and then when you feel like you want to stop tracking the key for people who under eat is to eat on a schedule okay so so when i've worked with people who tend to move towards under eating and track to make sure that they eat enough what we've done in the past that's been somewhat successful because sometimes we've got to go back and forth is they just say okay you're going to eat on a schedule you're going to have four meals a day you're going to make sure you have your proteins we're not going to go super lean you're going to have some carbohydrates and so that schedule typically kept them on track but if you want to bring your calories down by two three hundred that'd be totally fine by now definitely don't go too far down because we just okay we just got our period especially if you're seeing strength gains because there's a good possibility that you're going to be able to do that if you're going to be able to do that and i when i'm trying to build muscle on somebody i'm targeting about a pound a week on the scale is a nice yeah okay so that's a good now if you were gaining a pound a week and you weren't getting stronger then maybe i would be more concerned about backing off a little bit but i mean there's a good chance that you know half of that pound is muscle and so if you're putting a half a pound of muscle even a half pound of body fat on ratio it's not bad at all so i wouldn't want to cut back too much twenty five hundred calories that is the lowest i probably want to go where you're at right yeah and how tall are you matilda i'm 170 centimeters i'm not sure what it's how many feet is that doug do you know how to uh 170 170 centimeters nine feet tall i think maybe roughly six or something like that but i'll give you a number yeah give me the number here because i because i i did your weight in pounds because i'm not too familiar with kilos uh adam used to work with kilos but i'm not the so i think 138 five six is great okay so you're five you're five six 138 pounds your body weight is is is not only perfectly fine but you could probably still gain some weight actually five seven five seven yeah you could still gain especially if you're strength training you could probably still gain some weight like good strong kind of athletic build uh at your height you know could get up as like 145 katrina walks around at 150 155 she's five eight yeah so i wouldn't worry too much about the weight gain right now i think that's kind of what your body needs you're in a good place yeah yeah you're kicking butt makes sense okay and the second question is more about programming because i did maps 15 two times in a row now uh so i was wondering what you think about upper lower for me or is that too much volume or is there any advice if i move you up in volume i would go to ppl not upper lower yeah okay ppl first before upper lower yeah so let's let's do this then okay if you want to bring your calories down stay with maps 15 good call if you want to keep if you keep your calories at 2700 then i'll let you do ppl there you go okay so what do you want to do uh i think i'll stay at the calories i'm at and try a new program all right cool we'll see Send you PPL. I like that. I like that. Beautiful. Good job. Yeah. You'll love this. And by the way, too, that, that increased volume with the calories, a one pound gain a week, as long as you're getting stronger, it's totally good. It's a good, it's a good thing. You're probably building muscle. Yeah. You're crushing. Okay. Cool. Great job. Good job. Thank you. Bye-bye. As an early trainer, as a younger trainer, uh, I had no idea, you know, about, you know, helping when we get our period back or whatever. I never really dealt with it. I don't think anybody brought it to me. Uh, later on, um, I had some female athletes and then this kind of came on the radar a little bit. And then I worked with somebody who I learned a lot from, um, and I owe a lot to her, but she was really, really well versed on hormone health. And this became a topic. Um, and then from then on, I realized, wow, this is a really, uh, important signal. Like when a woman, woman loses her period and she's young, like that's like a big red flag. There's some things we need to work on and figure out. And so, so since that happened, I've worked with several female clients at helping them regain their period. And, uh, sometimes it takes longer than others. Uh, but it's pretty consistent. It's typically like reverse diet, gain weight, reduce volume, reduce stress. And then typically like clockwork for the most part, uh, you'll see it come back and their hormone health comes back. I'd say you see this sometimes even, uh, or not sometimes you very common to where you see this, where somebody is challenged with getting pregnant. Yes. Uh, and that was every time that I was, I just needed it higher calorie, get up a little bit higher in body fat percentage. And then all of a sudden it flips. I had actually a lot more cotton, both that and the losing the periods for young athletes. Super car. I had a female client who she was fit, strong, all that stuff. It's struggling getting pregnant. We had to gain 15 pounds of body fat. I mean, it was like, what about muscle? I'm like, that's cool, but we gotta get body fat and it worked. Well, I share Katrina's story. Cause I, I always thought, um, I, I've definitely had those cases where I had, like fit athletes and they had, and they definitely, and it was, it was kind of obvious that they needed to gain body fat. Cause they were lean. They were like vascular woman seeing her abs. Yeah. Just lean. Like very, very obvious Katrina really surprised me when the doctor, uh, what I didn't see it. I was like, I didn't think she was that lean, but she had to put body fat on in order for us to get pregnant. And then she, right after he did, she got pregnant pretty dang quick. You know, our next caller is Malia from Illinois. Hi Malia. Hi Malia. Hello. Hey, how are you? How are you? Good. How are you? How's it going? Good. Um, well I had actually emailed you back in November, so I have actually made some changes based on listening to you guys, but, um, I am 46 now. And when I had first, uh, sent you guys a message in November, I was about 15 pounds heavier and I started doing, um, the muscle mommy class. And I also, just started, I'm set starting my second round of the 40 and over, um, class that you guys offer. Awesome. I, um, I got diagnosed with type one, like three years ago. I had no idea you could get it when you were older, but you can, I've typically always done like the beach body workouts for like ever since I had kids. I also had gestational diabetes when I had kids too. Um, so I've always stayed between one 25, one 35, and then I ballooned up to one 45, all of a sudden. I know sometimes insulin can, you know, the extra insulin is hard to manage with weight sometimes. Um, and I was just on progesterone and estrogen when I had messaged you guys, but I was currently got on testosterone and I think that's helping a little bit. I also am microdosing a GLP one. Um, but I'm also getting my protein goals and I'm still eating 1800 to 2000 calories. I walk about 20, 20 to 25,000 steps a day because I'm a PE teacher and I'm constantly moving. Um, I'm still having like feeling like my mid sections a little big. I'm still trying to figure out the testosterone levels. Um, but yeah. And just kind of wondering what program to do next. I do. Um, I have a, I've had a frozen shoulder on my left side and I kind of have a little hip impingement as well. Okay. So, um, Malia, is it okay if I go through the, the email that you had sent? Cause I read through it and there was some, just some information for okay. So in the past you did a lot of workout stuff. Uh, Pilates reform strength training. You did lots of beach body class, uh, you know, type programs. Um, you kind of like you, you did a lot in the 25,000 steps today in today, you're still taking about 20, 25,000, which is quite a bit. It's a lot of steps, uh, that you're taking per day. You're following the muscle mommy program. This is where you're at. I did that one already. I did two rounds and now I'm doing the 40 and over one. So you're following 40 plus with the 20,000 plus steps a day. Um, yeah. And you want to get leaner, but you're eating about 1800 to 2000 calories. We have no runway with calories. And so we need to build your, your calories are really low. And I would guess Malia and you just correct me if I'm wrong. Uh, but you, you, you seem to have a history of under eating and overtraining. Uh, and you probably, yeah. Well, what do you mean? Probably. Why wouldn't it be true? Well, I've always just tried to stay. I mean, there was times I was trying when I was a little bit heavier in November, December, I was going, you know, 15, 1600 calories. Um, and yeah, just to kind of lean out and it wasn't working. Yeah. So even at 1800, 2000 calories, you're way low activity. Yeah. But again, let's just back up for a second. So you, you have a history. You have really controlling your intake, trying to control your body weight by eating and doing a lot of exercise. Is that true? Yeah. Okay. Um, and so what do you think is happening now? Do you think, uh, do you think speeding up your metabolism to build? Is that something you can do? Cause that's a way different approach than I think what you're used to. Yeah. I would love to do that. I do worry though. Like when I eat more carbs as a type one, then I have to take more insulin. Yeah. We can do it with other, with other ways of, of intaking calories. But here's what happens when you build muscle, your, your insulin sensitivity goes up a lot. It's actually one of the most effective ways to improve your sensitivity to insulin is to build muscle. It's one of the storage vessels for glycogen, which is what you, where you, what carbohydrates turn into. So we need to go on a muscle building, uh, like journey for, for probably a little while, because otherwise we're left with this. You're at 18 to 2000 calories, 1800, 2000 calories. You could cut down to 1500, but nothing will happen. You could get down to 1200 and you'll feel horrible. Um, and nothing will happen. So what we need to do is get your, with that much activity, you need to be eating north of 27, 2800 calories. Now we're not going to do it overnight, but we'll slowly build you up, uh, to be able to do that. And it's going to be very challenging because, uh, it's so different than what you've done for so long. How are you accomplishing the 10 to 25,000 steps? Are you getting on? She works PDT. No, I, I walk the dog every single morning for two to three miles. And then I'm in PE. So we, I'm just constantly moving all day. It's nice outside right now. So we are out walking a lot, like playing tennis walk. I walk around with the kids. I do their workouts with them sometimes. Um, so yeah, I just am active all day. Yeah. You're very active. Yeah. Yep. When, when, uh, how old were you when you first started kind of watching what you ate? Oh, my whole life. I feel like, um, yeah, I mean, I didn't really start tracking until the trackers, the apps came out, but probably, you know, I mean, I remember thinking about it when I was in high school and then now, you know, tracking my whole life pretty much. Okay. So this could be a tough, this could be a tough, um, relationship to break or change. Cause it'd be very different than what you've done in the past. And there's going to be a process, a reverse dieting. Oh, there's gonna be an uncomfortable phase for sure. And a process of reducing activity. So some of your activity is you're busy. Some of it is you're consciously trying to move. And there's probably, there's probably a fear there of if I don't move this much and if I start eating more, my God, I'm going to gain 50 pounds of body fat. So, so it's going to be a bit, it's going to be a bit of a process. So I could tell you what to do. Uh, but if I'm being quite honest, being quite honest with you, Malay, you would working with a coach would be your best bet because they'd walk you through the process. They'd coach you through all of the challenges. They'd pull back when things get unbearable. Cause they will. Cause reverse dieting is very difficult for some people. And at times a coach will have to pull someone back with their calories just to give them a little break because they're like, this is just too much. Um, and they'll also going to be checking with you on, well, are we getting stronger? Are we doing the right things? But that reverse diet process will build, the muscle improve your insulin sensitivity, and then we'll have some runway to do the cut. And then the body fat comes off rather than what it feels like, which is it's holding on. It's like wants to hold on and wants to stick to your body. So that would be the direction. That would be the direction that I would go program wise. 40 plus is great. Anabolic is great. 15, you know, maps 15 is great. Like those are all work for you really well. Uh, it's going to be the, the reverse diet is going to be the most, - Have you intentionally been on a surplus or a bulk? for an extended period? No, I think I didn't try one. It was like with a beach body one. And I was just eating a lot more carbs during that time, but I wasn't diabetic yet. Um, so that one, I did try for a little while. So a couple of things with, uh, with type one, uh, if you train too intensely, that can, that can not be a good thing. So, which I'm glad you're following our programs. So if you went back and did like insanity beach body, what it would be totally, that'd be super wrong for you. The second thing is if we, if we bookend your workouts with carbohydrates, that tends to be better. So kind of organize them in a way to where you're most sensitive to insulin, which is when you're strength training. Um, and then bumping calories, we, we could add some carbs, uh, but we could also do it through fat. We can also bump fat and it really doesn't make that big of a difference. How, how good are you at the long rest periods in the program? It's just going to get to that. Yes. Um, I mean, you mean in between lifts, like taking three minutes or yep. It is hard. Cause I want to get it done quickly. Yes. Yes. So I, I mean, I'll get to two minutes and then I kind of get antsy and jump in. Yeah, of course you do. So this is a, this is why the coaching part is so important because there's, there's, there's characteristics of somebody that's, that's dieted and trained the way you have for as long as you had that we're going to have to break and change. And it's going to be a push in a pool through the whole process. I'm going to have you do something. You're going to resist for a while. Then I'm going to get you a little bit of bought in. Then you're not going to trust me. Then I have to get you bought in again. It's like, it's a push and pull. And then eventually things will click and you'll see the results you want. You'll be happy, but it's not easy. It's not easy because, and, and, you know, because for so many years, I mean, even when it went south of the number 2,700, right? Like you felt, you felt your reaction, right? I mean, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So and so there's so many signals to me that I know that like what I'm going to have to do with the client. And so it's, it'll be a process, but if you surrender, if you can trust and go, okay, I trust these guys know what they're doing, or I trust they're the trainer. I know that they're going to, they're going to take care of me. And you do that and you defer this, then you're going to be okay. But if you're like, I'm going to just figure this out or you fight with them the whole time, then it's going to be a bumpy road along the way. They just established this new mentality and it'd be so helpful because you have the knowledge, like you've done, you know, you've worked out and you know, the exercises and you watch your calories, but you know, to have somebody reiterate this entirely new, uh, way of doing it, I think would be super helpful for you. They can go, they can go really slow to Malia. So, uh, you know, they can bump your calories a hundred, you know, a week or two weeks and see how you feel. And what you'll see is you're just going to get stronger. You're just going to get stronger. And it's, it's a snowball effect. So typically what happens is you get stronger, stronger, stronger calories, up calories, up calories, up calories up. And then things start to work and you start to get leaner and it feels weird because you feel like you're not doing a lot in comparison to what you've done in the past. So you're like, what, this is weird. I'm getting leaner. Like I don't, I don't, I'm moving less. This doesn't make any sense. It's a process though, six to nine months of you trusting the process. So it's not a, you know, turn it on. And then tomorrow you like, see, it's going to take a little bit of time. So just trust that process. You've done it a certain way for so long. I, you know, I'm sure you're frustrated because there's, there's nothing that I'm always like feel for my clients who put the work in. It's not a lot. You, you are not, it's not the lack of discipline and effort and commitment. Like, so like that's most people, most people lack consistency, the discipline, the effort, like that's not your situation. So that's a plus that we have, right? Like I know when I get a client like you, like, okay, I know that she's got the discipline and she's got the consistency. If I can just get her trust, that I know what I'm doing and I'm going to take her through this, like then, then we're going to be okay. But it's a process. This is a good place to be though, because your, your hormones are kind of getting balanced, your, your own testosterone, you got the progesterone, estrogen, insulin is handled. So we're in a good place to start this kind of process. But I mean, with your diet, I'm going to, I mean, straight up, like you're eating 150 to 170 grams of protein a day, but about 2000 calories, a real easy way to bump calories would be to move away from the super lean cuts of whatever you're eating to get that. You know, that would be a real simple switch. Get rid of the chicken breast, should be chicken thighs. Stop eating the super, super lean meats, all white or all fish. Enjoy some red meat. Enjoy some healthy fats. That's an easy, that's an easy 200 calorie bump. Like very quick and easy. All right. Sounds good. Do you want to have a mind pump coach call you? Cause I can set that up for you. Sure. Yes. Okay. Let's do that. Um, and, uh, they do a very, very good job. We hire them ourselves. The process is difficult, but it works. And if you've listened to us, talk to other callers, we have people come back. They all come back. They're like, I didn't think it would work, but it did. So the process works. Yeah. Sounds good. Thank you guys. Thank you. We appreciate it. All right. I'm looking forward to trying it. Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye. Okay. Yeah. That's a, um, a good example of what we talk about. I hope she does it. Yeah. It's a, I think she will. I mean, she's very self-aware, right? Like even though I was able to call her out on stuff and she wasn't like, you know, you can always tell like, yeah, when you, when you call someone out and they either lie or defend, she was like, I know I struggled with the minutes. Yes. I know. I made that face when Sal said 20 said like, so that the self-awareness where she's at, hopefully she, and it sounds like she hit a wall. Yeah. She's going to be blown away. She'll be blown away when she follows it and is consistent and then things start clicking. It's always a trip. I love being a part of it because I love hearing from people. I didn't believe it. I didn't think it would work, but it totally did. And it moves so much. She's done this for so long. Like you do a couple changes. Oh God. And stay consistent. She's going to just trip out. Well, what I love with those clients is that, like I said, it's not a lack of effort and commitment and consistency, which is what most people struggle with. Right. What about most people are not consistent. Don't have the effort, right? That's not the biggest battle in the beginning. Right. So she's got that part, you know? And so that's a, that's a huge plus, but like getting her to reframe what it looks like is the challenge. Our next caller is Shell from Pennsylvania. Hi Shell. How you doing, hon? Good. How are you guys? Good. Good. Good. How can we help you? Well, first off, as always, I want to say thank you. I've been listening to you guys for many years and I just wish I would have had yous in the twenties when I had my kids young, you know, versus now I'm like telling my kids about my grandkids, you know, what they should be doing. Oh, that's great. Where are you at? Beautiful where you're at. Where are you at? I know, I got a deck out back here. Oh, how cool. Oh, that's awesome. How cool. Yeah. It's kind of funny. You were talking about campers the other, I've been full-time camper for six years and that's actually one of our businesses. We do mobile RV repair. Very cool. Great. So we travel over the country and work wherever we're at. That's awesome. So how can I help you? Well, let me read my email to make it short. Kind of short here. Apologize. I'm not good with talking with guys, people and stuff. So bear with me. Um, I've had three DEXA scans done, uh, since December of last year. And each time I've changed up regimens or my eating habits or, and each time I thought I was doing better. I've went through, uh, MP hormones prior and then moved with the Vita Bella when they started. Um, and even going through all that each time I do it, my, uh, my scans are worse and not better. And I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and why that is. Okay. Well, so tell us, okay. So you mind if I read off your email a little bit? Oh no. Yes, please. Yeah. Cause you did a great job. I just want to say this first off, first off, you're so sweet. I really like it. And I I'm looking at your email and you, you give us some really, some good details. I think these it's important. Uh, when we get details like this, cause it gives me a good idea of what we can work on and what might be the issue. So it has your age, your height and your body weight. You're lifting four days a week, a week. You sleep between six to seven hours a night. So you go to bed at 7 PM. You wake up at three. You don't necessarily track your calories, but you prioritize protein first. And I'm assuming you're eating whole natural foods. Is that where you're getting that from? Yes. Yeah. Basically chicken and beef is like my go-to and a crab since I'm on the East coast. Do a lot of blue crab. Okay. And you're taking a thyroid testosterone and you're on a few peptides here. And then Doug, when you got that deck set, did the lean body mass change or was it just body fat? So I see the fat mass has changed, uh, here from 2025 to 2026. Um, yeah. So it's gone up a little bit from that point. Okay. So here's the big glaring thing, and this is going to be annoying to you. The lean mass is what I'm looking at. Well, yeah. So I see that too. That's also changed. Not in the positive. So here's, here's what it's going to be frustrating. You're going to hear what I'm going to tell you. And you're gonna be like, well, that sucks. But what's glaring to me and people never believe it when I tell them, but if you're averaging every night, six to seven hours of sleep, it's your sleep. It plays that big of a role. It plays a huge role. So six to seven hours on average is about six and a half hours. Most nights, if we can get you one, if you can get one That's it, one more hour of sleep within 30 minutes days you'll see your body moving in the positive direction i'm just i'm not sure where how come it's so early 3 a.m what are you doing up at 3 a.m so out in the tree out in the trees too it's pitch black out there what the hell could you do at three o'clock in the morning out there so i work full-time remotely on top of owning two businesses so i'm allowed to work my 40 hours anytime i want so i will get up at two in the morning and work i usually have my 40 hours in sunday monday and tuesday whoa okay and then once and once that is done wednesday thursday fridays i'm doing the business stuff i'm doing the bookkeeping i'm out in the field like this morning i was out in the field helping work wow you work a lot wow yes i we do a lot yes i mean which by the way totally it's curveball for me because i'm like oh i live in my rv full-time out in the forest it sounds like you're vacationing vacationing all the time totally not the read uh i was getting from this call like so that's a curveball and a half right wow so you go if you go to bed at 7 p.m yep anywhere between 6 30 and 7 but then you wake up at 2 i wake up well between 2 and 2 30 yes if you could just add an hour to that if you could wake up an hour later uh and help yourself sleep through that process that would make a big difference okay yeah i listen i've had a few clients now oftentimes when you're working with somebody sleep is is part of the formula but i've had a few clients in the past where they kind of did everything right and all we did was get their sleep that's all we did and it was like it was like i just it was like last key that you just turned oh it was like magic it was changed everything uh body composition energy everything changed just from that alone so it's important for all clients it becomes exponentially more important as we age too yes it's not like we're 25 anymore and we could grind like that i mean it's different it's it's different right and it's like the sleeping pattern i've had for years so it's like and that's why i'm trying to like nothing's changed in the past year except for my body fat's going up and my lean body mass is going down you know so it's well what happens figure that out what happens is i mean humans are pretty good at being uh kind of chronically sleep deprived we can kind of get through things uh but it doesn't mean it's ideal and it's cumulative so you know you can do it for a week you can do it for two weeks but you do for years you don't notice it yeah it has progressive uh impacts on our bodies so that would be right right if you're my client i'd be like that's our focus that's it we're gonna start here yeah uh the supplements you could take that would enhance or or or improve your sleep and they're very inexpensive these are very inexpensive they're backed by data very inexpensive you go theanine uh glycine so those are amino acids are really really cheap and then apigenin apigenin is a compound found in chamomile you can find those on amazon they're super super cheap you take them before bed on an empty stomach and it should help you be able to stay asleep because i'm assuming you're probably so used to this you probably just wake up at two is that what's happening yeah yeah there's no alarm ever so what i would do is just just you wake up you look at your clock okay it's two o'clock i'm gonna just shut my eyes and i'm gonna lay in bed for the next hour and what you'll find is a dose in and out for the next hour but eventually your body will get used to it and you should be able to sleep longer would you also recommend she does like a mega dose of creatine with that that lack of sleep too that i mean you do you already take creatine i do i take it consistently on the days i work out but on the days i do not i seem to relax and remembering to take it just take it every day that'll help uh that'll also help it's just good for you but it won't make up uh for lack of sleep in some ways it helps with performance but doesn't make up in the other ways but that's pretty much it i mean everything else looks good i mean diet wise you know because you don't track you could look at that you could look at maybe big offenders like you know there's that bag of chips i have here and there or stuff like that you know you could always look at that but honestly the big thing that's that's really standing out to me is is the sleep and do it for 30 days try it for 30 days be consistent it's almost guaranteed that sal because and why i don't think it's going to be like it's diet stuff is because we're we're losing muscle if she was like overeating every now and then and still prioritizing protein like you'd still you'd still hang on to muscle or build muscle your body is paring down muscle because it's it's it's fighting back it's fighting back and it's pushing back because it's lacking sleep and that's why and so it's we got to fix that it's that it's 100 that yeah it's like yeah because it's like over time i was feeling better and like each time like each time i got the adexa scan i was super excited looking forward to it and then not quite the deflation in my attitude towards everything yeah no don't be deflated you're doing you're doing all the other stuff right and what i want to remind you of is so you're right because but here's what will happen if you stay on this path you're going to feel like crap so stress hormones feel good so we all think we all been told cortisol is bad and you don't want to when your cortisol is high when your stress hormones are high you got energy you feel good you almost feel wired but that chronic elevation uh reduces muscle mass and it helps promote fat gain over time then it crashes then that's the bad part when you get to the point where you crash then it gets emergency and it feels terrible you're like oh my god i feel horrible what's going on but in between that is like this like wired energy i used to have people like this in my gym they'd show up they do these crazy intense classes i feel great what's going on i'm like uh you're doing too much but i feel so good i'm like it's you're a cortisol junkie let's get this to come down and then of course everything works it might be a worthwhile to get like an aura ring or like a Fitbit to track sleep just so you have like a data point, you know, because I know what Sal's saying is like try and get an hour of sleep, but there's times where I'm laying there and doing that and I get really restless, bad sleep. There are times where I get really good sleep and it's nice to have that data point. I can look at my aura ring and see, oh, nice, today was a 80 score. And so it'll give you something to kind of focus on. Since that's the main focus, I think there's a lot of value in investing in something like that Fitbit or a ring, anything that's – you have anything with that? I do have a Garmin that does that. Okay. My average, which is like – my highest I've ever had was a 75. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, so – Chelle, this is our sleep, man. If that's your highest at a 75, which means you probably have some 60s and 50s. Oh, yeah. I average like a 68. Oh, God, yeah. For like the past year or so. That's our goal. If I was training you, that's what – because you're doing everything else really good. That's all I'm talking to you about is like let's get competitive with how good can we get to sleep. Do you have like a routine for like an hour before sleep you do or like do you prep before that? The hardest part is like my husband doesn't get home until 5.30 in the evening. So when he gets home, we eat dinner together because that's our – And then we talk business and then I go to bed at 7 and then I'll get up like when he comes to bed at 9, I'll wake up and take my medicine that I have to take on an empty stomach because it's not empty when I go to bed. So I get up to take it. Damn, girl, you guys work hard. You guys be working your ass off. There's a couple things. There's a few things we can fix there with your sleep. Like black everything out of course because 6, 7 o'clock, the sun's still out. See if you can figure out – See if you can figure out a way to not have to wake up at 9 to take your medication. If you could – Or can you switch it so you go to bed at 9 and then extend your morning a bit? I could do that. I guess how it all originally started was I started to go to bed earlier so I didn't snack at night. Oh, that's why you did that? That's how I started going to bed earlier so I didn't snack at night. That took out the snacking and then that was years ago and now it's become a habit. Oh, this is not necessary. No, it's really – Here's what we're going to do. Your husband goes to bed at 9 p.m. I want you to try going to bed at 9 p.m. You have your last meal at 5.30. That way you can have your supplements before bed. You're obviously going to be switching your circadian rhythm so it's going to take about a week to get used to. Yes, we'll take an adjustment. It's going to be an adjustment so give yourself a week or two to get used to it and then sleep eight hours. That's going to change your life. Yeah, and he won't interrupt you too by coming in. Plus you'll go to bed when the sun's down. It's going to change your life. All right, I will give it a try. I'll give anything a try at this rate. The other thing we could also do just because we are trying something new with you like this is – I don't know if you've ever heard us talk about the concierge but you'd be like a great candidate for someone who just checks in with our team once a month and we're making these little adjustments. I could have one of the trainers call you and kind of explain what that looks like if that's something you'd be interested in. Yeah, definitely. With all the peptides and the stuff that I'm taking through MP Hormones, I don't want to say is it necessary. I started out taking it because I didn't have testosterone at all and I've gotten that up but even I've been doing that for a year and a half now, two years but my libido is still tanked so could that still have something to do with my sleep as well? That's sleep. It'll help balance you out. 100%. If you Fix your sleep. I'm going to tell you right now. So thyroid, you want to stay on. Testosterone, you want to stay on. The other peptides are great, but you don't need them. You fix your sleep. It's going to change everything. Everything. Give it 30 days, like dedicated 30 days. Go to bed at 9, wake up 8 hours later, give it 30 days, and it will change your life. I mean, the fact that you're already tracking on Garmin, I love, because now we have, like, a data point there. Like, you know what it's been like. And so, like, you and I, when we're meeting, if we're meeting, I'm just telling you, like, what's our score has been? And our goal is just to keep getting better and better. Let's just keep getting better and better scores and being consistent with those scores. And of all the things that you've got going on, that's the thing we're focusing on. Because if we can put, like Sal said, if we can start stringing 30 days and we can break your record of 75 and we see an 80 for the first time, you know what I'm saying? We see an 80 for the first time. You get a couple 70s in a row. Like, now we're kicking ass, and then we start building on that. Just to be clear, give it 30 days, but it's going to take about six months for this to become really good and regular for you. So, it's going to be a process of getting used to, okay? I just want to be clear. All right. Okay. We got this, though. Yeah. We got this. Simple. It'll be huge for you. Simple and straightforward. So, do it. It's just it. Nothing else. You don't got to change anything else. Okay. All right. I appreciate all your help. Thanks, Sal. Good to see you. Thank you. Dude, I was so thrown off by the living in the RV and the trees. Yeah. Like, she grinds. She grinds. She gets up, like, hella early. Bro, what a girl. What a grinder. But you know what? I'm glad, towards the end, she started talking about why she does that. Because I thought that was necessary. I was like, yeah. I guess I assumed this was just, like, a necessary schedule. I kind of assumed that at first. I was like, that's so weird. But she did it because she didn't want a snack. So, she just stuck on the schedule she didn't have to keep. Yeah. I had a client once. I had a dude I trained once. All we did was fix his sleep. That's all we did. He gained eight pounds of muscle and lost 2% body fat. Yeah. Changed nothing else. Oh, yeah. That was my client who would get interrupted all the time from international calls. And so, once. She retired, it was like, boom, everything worked. Yeah. You know? Oh, I mean, it's clearly that. It's clearly that with her. So clear. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And people don't believe it. I know she's kind of like, all right, I'll give it a shot. But I'm telling you. She knows, though. I feel like when we point. I mean, and it's great that she has had some data, too. Like, to say that your best score you've ever seen is a 75. I know. That's rough. That's a bad night. Oh, yeah, dude. Our next caller is Andrew from Washington. What's up, Andrew? How you doing, Andrew? What's happening? How are you guys doing? Good, dude. How can we help you? Well, I'm a little, I guess I would say frustrated and lost here. So I'll start like everybody else. And again, thank you guys for taking my call. I'll read you what I wrote you all. And I guess we can go from there. All right. Let's do it. All right. So hi, Saul, Adam, Justin, and Doug. I've been listening to the podcast now for about eight months. And it's completely changed how I approach training. I'm hoping you can understand. I'm hoping you can help me understand my latest DEXA results because they don't seem to match my effort or my progress. I'm 42, 5'10". Before this, I'd never trained seriously. I did CrossFit for about three years, then took a year off due to arthritis to my chest. Since returning, I've moved away from CrossFit and now focus solely on strength training and building muscle. My wife is a certified personal trainer and a CrossFit level two coach. So I've been doing CrossFit for about three years. So I've had plenty of good guidance. I might be sleeping on the couch after going around my own personal trainer to ask you guys these questions. We won't tell her. Well, she made sure she's posted up in the next room to hear what I say. All right. So I do want to preface this as this. For the past several months, I've been on a structured cut against her recommendation. I've been at about 1,700 to 1,800 calories per day. 170 to 190 grams of protein every day with mostly whole foods. Let's see here. I started completely plant-based. I've been plant-based for about six years now. Then added tuna and shrimp just because the volume became too much to eat. It was like I had to eat a bale of hay every day just to hit my protein. I track everything consistently and hit my calories and protein. Sleep has been consistently good. I lift three days a week using progressive overload. On my non-lifting days, I walk or ruck three to four miles carrying 50 to 70 pounds. I also average over 10,000 steps a day about 90% of the time. My DEXA showed a 14.7% body fat and 146.1 pounds of lean mass on my first scan. Six weeks later, my DEXA showed a 16.2% body fat and 139.1 pounds of lean mass. According to the scan, I lost 4.7 pounds overall, gained two pounds of fat, and lost seven pounds of lean mass. What doesn't make sense is my lifts have increased as far as strength goes. I do look a little softer than I did in May, so I can understand that I may have gained a little body fat, but I just can't really understand. How that happened, unless it had to do with recovery or nutrition. So I guess my main questions are, is were my calories simply too low? Could the weighted rucking and overall activity level have interfered with recovery and body composition? How much of the reported lean mass loss could realistically be glycogen and water versus actual muscle? And if I was your client, where do you think I should go from here? You hit it already, and I bet your wife told you this. Both. It's both. Overtrained, underfed. Big time. So oftentimes we'll get people on the show, we'll ask questions, and the answer is very obvious. So this is not mysterious whatsoever. In fact, if you didn't tell me your DEXA scan, I would have guessed. Now to answer your question about strength, strength can go up because technique gets better and central nervous system adaptations get better. So you just get better at the lift. So now you do that long enough, typically you end up, uh, building muscle. You said you went on a cut. So 17, 1800 calories to cut. Do you know where you were before that? Um, probably low two thousands. I've, I've had a horrible, uh, eating habit my whole life. I was a commercial fisherman for a long time. Um, owned a body shop. So like I ate at night, I didn't eat breakfast. I barely eat lunch. And then I just gorged at night, got updated. it again for the majority of my life okay i'm assuming too that if you have a crossfit back background too that you probably train pretty intensely and so that would be my guess i'm sure you don't have you don't seem like somebody who trains like soft and weak like you probably get after it when you lift yeah that and that is one of my largest problems is this and like even uh the tracking the nutrition is i'm all or nothing yeah like i'm weighing my onions i'm weighing absolutely everything and then when i work out it's very difficult for me to dial back yeah why okay can i why plant-based is this uh because ethical reasons moral reasons or is it because you want to be healthier um well a big part was my wife is plant-based for health reasons um and it was just easier i do all the cooking so instead of making you know a meal for my kids a meal for my wife and a meal for me i figured i'll just eat what she's eating you "and what is it okay if i ask you what the health reasons are does she have like a polymorphism where her her blood lipids are all over the place or um it had something to do with migraines the estrogen and like dairy and chicken really just gave her really extreme migraines to her i mean so so the for you andrew the prescription's simple uh you got to bump your calories way up yeah like way well that or a combination of more appropriate programming with a little bit more calories i would it's the combination of the two that's killing well the calories are real low dude your body's the thirsty like if you bumped your calories 800 if you went up 800 calories you would notice dramatic difference and if you threw in some red meat dude that would make a big difference for you red meat and eggs would help you a lot those two things right there now because if you try to go up 800 calories with your plant-based diet this will be really hard for you to do i mean why not i mean eat like uh but the plant base is the base and then just throw some meat or like literally cook the same shit but then just throw some chicken or beef there with it and then that's kind of what i've done with the the tuna salmon okay yeah okay cool yeah the seafood if anything i'd be more inclined to go pescatarian um i just actually just the other day we were talking and took 42 years of my life to realize with uh um red meat that i'm eating muscle yeah do you do you take uh do you take creatine i do i do about uh 15 uh yeah 15 grams a day all right do you take a methylated b vitamin i do not know i have he's got me on a whole bunch of supplements i just do what he says okay okay good i do not i do not she said i do not all right so try switching to a methylated b vitamin uh you might be getting your b's anyways but i would go methylated b uh just some people um don't absorb b's very well unless it's uh the methylated version so you'll notice a difference if not you can go back to the regular are you gonna get a big i told you so when we hang up right now or what well okay so i was listening to episode oh geez uh 29 23 this morning and had to come in and eat crow and tell you like you're training me exactly how they're talking about it minus the rucking and the walking which was my idea yeah yeah if you so if you want to feel better very quickly and have energy go through the roof build muscle get stronger get leaner you want to see crazy results you would cut the rucking out you'd stick to the strength training you'd bump your calories 800 uh and you'd be and you'd be good and you'd know 800 from the 18 so i want to be around 26 minimum yeah i'd have you at 2600 calories to start with the rucking i'd have you over 3000 okay yeah but 2600 calories is not a ton but with the strength training 2600 calories get some of those fats in there so you know get some of those fats because you're hitting your protein yeah um and then within a week of doing that within a week of doing that you're gonna be like what's i feel way better week i mean we could supercharge it even more if i play with your training a little bit too i mean how you i just have a feeling the way you approach lifting is super intense are you good how are you with rest periods do you rest for three minutes in between sets i do oh i do okay that is one thing that i am doing um as far as the oh geez uh um what were you going for there what were you saying right before the three minute rest intensity how intense yes so she tells me to stop when i've got a couple left in the tank she's right yeah she's right i don't this isn't i told you this is she's nodding her head the whole time we're talking right now i know she is yeah i know yeah yeah i know that she's she's right let two of them that's what you do i mean what sal gave you advice wise i think that'll already send you in the right direction you want to charge it listen to her you stop leave two in the tank leave two in the tank drop the rucking bro you're gonna gain eight pounds you'll gain eight pounds of lean body mass so fast yeah if you just stop your sets two reps short eat 800 more calories cut the rucking out you'll gain recovery man bro you'll gain eight pounds of muscle so quick it's gonna blow you away okay now then just make sure i keep those steps up i know that's a big one you guys you're fine your steps are fine i'm not worried about someone like you with activity i think yeah you're the kind of guy i'd have to pull back yeah okay yeah yeah and then really and then and really push the protein get get some meat in there if you go the the uh fish route salmon get some salmon in there um and then yeah you're that's gonna make a huge difference bro huge difference wonderful hey thank you very much you got it dude yeah you got it man good luck email us with the results yeah yeah we'll do we'll do yeah take it easy dude thank you all right yeah very simple fix yeah yeah you know i love clients like that because they'll be like oh cool oh you're gonna blow your mind it's always it's always more fun to take somebody who has got discipline and consistency and pull them back and adjust things because those are the ones that are like mind blown because they're like they don't lack effort and and you know i'm saying so it's like adjusting and tweaking and being like hey this could be easier bro i'm gonna say i didn't want to say this to him because i never want to under promise because you know you never know but uh what'll probably happen he's gonna gain 10 pounds and get leaner he's gonna bump his calories he's like what i lost three percent body fat while i gained that's exactly what that's it to cut out cut out the rucking pull back on the intensity of the training bump calories he will absolutely put 10 pounds on it and it'll be like all lean mass mostly all lean mass yeah if you like the show come find us on instagram it's mind pump media thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body 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